"You're not very feminine"

[Freak87]

for the guys, and girls, but mostly the guys for the question, what is feminine to you? what do you classify as unfeminine? what do you classify as tomboy.

the other day someone told me I am not feminine and I'm a tom-boy. they say my body language, the fact i hit people for jokings sake/playfully, the way i dress, no make up, hairs not straightened. he said- you dont seem to care a lot about your appearance but I wear girls clothes

my question is, what is feminine, what is un-feminine? are you attracted to feminine, unfeminine or both?

[PortInStorm]

Well, you know where he can stick that comment... Oops, guess that was unfeminine :-)

[Bandit]

This is absoulutely about beauty is in the eye of the beholder.. It also depends upon your previous life experiences, and what stage of life you are in..

For me at a young age I found girls that were Tom-Boys to be very attractive... most of my G/F's wore combat boots, and would walk in the woods with me... etc..

Then in my 20's I found a girl that was the picture of feminine, that I could dominate, control... excessively submissive and I thought that was what I wanted.. Perhaps based on the fact that I had no control as a child..

But here in my 30's the novelty has worn off, and I find myself excedingly attracted to the Tom-Boy image again.. girls that are sure of themselves, girls that have an opinion, that can banter and chat, stand there ground.. and really don't care to muc about what society thinks about them...


My 2 cents.

[md21017md]

To give you a more specific answer. Wearing girl clothes doesn't make one feminine - an image, mike tyson in a dress.

My intj g/f is a good example of this except I can't quite put it in words. She will wear girl clothes, but mostly black. To see her in color is shocking, forget any type of pattern or print. She will ocassionally wear makeup, but it is very basic. She has also been know more than not to leave the house with her hair wet, in a pony tail - despite the fact that she spends $200 every 6 weeks to get her hair done. Just strikes me as strange.

Her body manorisims are more like a guy. Look at how a guy walks or sits for an image compared to a woman.

[mkay]

I think I'd be seen as unfeminine in some ways -- not afraid to be aggressive or disliked, very independent, etc. I don't go with the flow unless it suits me, and feminine / unfeminine stereotypes don't. I remember hearing mixed messages as a girl and thinking them ignorant then. ... It's funny, because I have friends who are more stereotypically feminine who say they admire that I'm willing to say and do stuff they're not. For me, it's not a choice. This is how I am, what I'm comfortable with.

Lol. Once, an employer told me I negotiated money like a man. I told him if he meant that I expected to get paid what I was worth, he was right.

[Monte314]

For me, manifestations of femininity are mostly about mannerisms (standing, walking, use of hands, facial expressions, etc.) Dress doesn't have much to do with it, make-up doesn't have much to do with it.

[Homini Lupus]

I've no clear definition of what is feminine and what is not. Personally, I hate the "bitchy" behaviour, can relate well with tomboy girls (as long as feminism or other ideology don't get in the way) but feel more attracted towards something more balanced and leaning toward feminine behaviour. I also prefer feminine appearance/aesthetics/way of moving in girls.

Basically, my idea is that I'm already the man hence I need a woman, not another man, but I don't consider tomboy/assertive behaviour wrong. I also have no actual experience of partnership.

[KidC]

I'm attracted to girls who have a strong sense of self and say and do what they want to without being too conscious of society's view of it. I'm just much more drawn to a girl who can be direct and be herself.

Great example - way back freshman year of high school a girl I knew and liked a bit came up to me and said hey I was talking to my friends and I mentioned I liked you and they thought it was a good idea to ask you out on a date. So etc...

This sticks out in my memory as one of the coolest things a girl has ever done and its far from conventionality, yet wonderful and unique. Needless to say I said yes =).

[curiousjane]

I suppose that dress, mannerisms, and language/body language all contribute to the image of femininity or masculinity. I know that if I dress up, pay attention to the little details (nails, hair, makeup, etc.) I feel more feminine, and am sometimes treated differently.

But I think it boils down to ... are you comfortable with being a female? I am. With few exceptions (oh, about once a month, or whenever my sexist boss says another smooth "My dear, would you ___[enter inane secretarial type task here]____ for me?"), I like being a woman. I can be as pretty as I want to be. I can be silly. I can swirl my skirts, wear perfume and high heels, enjoy beauty without being thought of as weird, and enjoy the common courtesy of having random handsome men holding doors open for me. What's not to like!? I can also be solemn, sensible, down-to-earth, and business minded. I can wear slacks, as well as dresses. I can go without makeup. I can walk into any professional environment and hold my own, if I want to. Yes, being female is like the best of both worlds, especially with women's rights the way they are today.

A gay man might enjoy similar things ... but a straight man who likes beauty and art and good clothes and great food is immediately suspected of being "in the closet" or "metro." Whatever. I have some very, very straight guy friends who have more shoes than I do! (And I do love my shoes. I'm VERY girly in that way. I just can't afford to buy everything I like!)

Some ways in which I don't associate myself with being extremely feminine:

1) My manner of interacting with men. I don't flirt outrageously, and I am uncomfortable with the traditionally feminine role of fussing and touching flirtatiously and twisting men around my pinky finger to get them to do things for me that I am perfectly capable of doing myself.

2) My style. I often go without makeup, if my skin is clear. I hate the fuss of doing my hair (thank God mine is curly and just requires wash and go after a quick run-through with some gel). I don't wear tons of pink and purple and frills and lace and bling-bling. I prefer simplicity, elegant lines, tailoring, and comfy clothes. Give me a screenprinted indie t-shirt, flip flops, and a well-worn pair of jeans any day. Sure, I clean up good ... but my preference is comfort over fashion.

3) My goals. While my ultimate desire is to be a wife and mother, that is not my ONLY goal in life. I have met very few women (in real life, anyway) who are like me and want to run their own business. It has been my dream since I was about 5. It never, ever dawned on me that it was not a normal thing for a little girl to do to make crafts in her spare time and sell them to the neighborhood kids at a carefully calculated profit margin! (I was so successful, in fact, that I "hired" a couple kids to help me run my little stand and paid them wages for selling my homemade cookies and crafts).

:)!

[Uytuun]

"*surprise* you think like a guy.", "*halfjoke* yeah, but you're not a real woman." and all that while I feel very, very feminine and elegant, like an empowered ballerina or a mysterious yet reserved (warrior) queen! :p Not girly, though, no, not so much. What limiting pre-conceived ideas we have to carry around as a society. I love being a female in an apparently unorthodox way, it's great fun and seems to be very enticing to some guys.

I do have days on which I feel like a neutral mind blob, but that's just a general disconnection with anything physical. During such times I will not care about what I look like and what I wear and the shock on people's faces when I get out of my zone and dress normally is funny to witness...sometimes they seem to be very uncomfortable about it as if they are suddenly reminded that I'm really a fully developed female. practically speaking, we're talking about exams and my parents and brother as the people in question.

[manger]

Femininity is all in how you present yourself to others. This includes manner of dress, speech, gait, and gesture. In most societies it is also about other behaviors - e.g. fixing things, hunting, etc. is not feminine.

Either extreme of the masc/fem spectrum is off-putting to me. In my experience hypermasculine men and extremely feminine women are not the best company. They tend to be too absorbed in the gender dichotomy to have depth in their personality.

A 'tomboy' is a girl who wears gender-ambiguous clothes, and exhibits as many or more masculine traits as she does feminine traits. This is also known as super-hot in some circles (read:my head).

Women in this society have it tough. To most people (particularly males), a woman cannot be seen as simultaneously feminine/compassionate and dominant/powerful. You can be either a cold bitch, or a helpless girl. This is why America can't elect a female president (yet).

[ElstonGunn]

I once told a friend of mine-- not literally, but not jokingly-- that I'd marry the idea of femininity if it were possible. So I would have to say that I like feminine women. I'm not entirely sure how I'd define the word, though.

I know of a few thing that I don't strongly associate with femininity or use as measurements of it. Clothing is one, although I do think that a good skirt is the most attractive thing a woman can wear, including fancy lingerie or even "nothing." I don't think assertiveness or submissiveness have anything to do with it, at least not in my conception of it.

Makeup and presentation don't have a whole lot to do with it in my mind, either. I can imagine a woman in dingy sweatpants with mussed up hair being very feminine. Maybe it's a general interest in things like that that I consider feminine, rather than the actual practice of them.

In any event, I don't see what justification that I have as a man to impose my definition of femininity onto anyone else, least of all women. That's not to say that I have no right to have my own definitions and preferences. I just can't make the assumption that what I happen to be fond of it automatically right or good for other people.

[mkay]

Femininity is all in how you present yourself to others. This includes manner of dress, speech, gait, and gesture.

This is the part I love. I'm petite and appear feminine. People make assumptions based on that, which I use to my advantage.





mkay added to this post, 11 minutes and 1 seconds later...

It never, ever dawned on me that it was not a normal thing for a little girl to do to make crafts in her spare time and sell them to the neighborhood kids at a carefully calculated profit margin!

Lol, good for you, Jane! In grade school, I used to buy stickers by the sheet and resell them individually to classmates at a high markup. I used my profits to expand into candy later in my grade school "career." My only problem with that was eating the inventory.

[Chisos]

Difficult question, since it so depends on the person defining "feminine." And even then, it is still tough to answer.

Growing up, I had a cousin, one year older than me, who was considered a "tom boy," as she had 3 brothers who were all outdoorsmen--one of whom was almost my exact age.

The 3 of us would go out in the woods in our "pre-teen" years, and hunt, and fish, and climb, etc. She could "whup up" on my cousin and me if we didn't listen to her, and we respected her. I thought she was the epitome of what I wanted in a girl friend (since she was my cousin, it wasn't going to happen between us. She did, however, teach me to dance, and helped this "shy, skinny kid" get dates.)

As we grew into teens, she became very physically attractive in addition to have that great sense of humor, intelligence, had a "not scared of a thing" attitude, "cleans up real nice," smells good, gentle, confident, compassionate, soft skin, sparlking eyes, soft hair.

So, I kind of use her a bench mark.

I cannot imagine being attracted to a female who did not have at least some
"tom boy" attributes.

And if a chick did not have some predisposition to being a "tom boy," then I suspect they would be unable to tolerate me.

[Eric86]

For me, manifestations of femininity are mostly about mannerisms (standing, walking, use of hands, facial expressions, etc.) Dress doesn't have much to do with it, make-up doesn't have much to do with it.
Taking all of that into consideration, along with voice inflections, being embarrassed really easily (even when people are just joking around), wanting to fulfill a more supportive and empathetic role in relationships, and the fact that I don't really like any stereotypically "guy" things, I think I probably come off to most people as very feminine (certainly not girly or flamboyant, of course, cause that's just annoying), but I don't have a problem with that because it's who I am. I have noticed, though, that I've gotten progressively more this way the more that I get into music (I listen to a ton of varied styles that are mostly rather obscure and very emotionally and intellectually engaging...not anything that one would use for mere background noise/casual entertainment/parties), anime and manga (which I find that I can really connect with), and making more of an effort to interact with others on a more intimate level [conversationally]; so basically, the more I come out of my shell (which I think was formed very early on in elementary school), the more feminine I get. Of course, I never really was all that masculine to begin with, though.

Another factor I should probably mention is that my dad has never been much of a part of my life (parents divorced when I was 5, and I've only seen him a few times since then), and there has never been any other "father figure" around for me, and although my mom was always there, she was never much of a part of my life either (she knows me far less than even my online friends do, and she quite often misunderstands my way of thinking), due to work and raising my brother and just generally being really busy with keeping up the home and making sure we don't end up on the street (which we very well could have back when I was around 8), so I was pretty much left to my own devices and grew up with very little influence from other people.


I think I also may have some sort of chemical/hormonal imbalance that might be playing into this. For instance, several of my online friends have said that my facial features are noticeably more feminine. I also sometimes have very strong PMS-like symptoms (minus the physical symptoms, of course) that have been occurring a bit more frequently over the past few years, and I get really really REALLY emotional and kinda moody and sometimes even snap on people in a defensive manner (which normally never happens) if they come across a certain way to me at the time.

Here's something I came across in the Wikipedia page on PMS that I think may be related to what's going on with me:

"Current thinking suspects that central-nervous-system neurotransmitter interactions with sex hormones are affected. It is thought to be linked to activity of serotonin (a neurotransmitter) in the brain. Preliminary studies suggest that up to 40% of women with symptoms of PMS, have a significant decline in their circulating serum levels of beta-endorphin. Beta endorphin is a naturally occurring opioid neurotransmitter which has an affinity for the same receptor that is accessed by heroin and other opiates. Some researchers have noted similarities in symptom presentation between PMS symptoms and opiate withdrawal symptoms."

which I think might also be linked with [possible] clinical depression (I have yet to get checked out for that, but I know for sure that none of the things that have happened to me make me that way because it just happens randomly and lasts for at least a whole day [I sometimes even wake up feeling like that], sometimes for several days in a row, and it takes a good while to get back to my normal self afterward).


If anyone else can think of what stuff like that might be for me, please let me know.

[Monte314]

which I think might also be linked with [possible] clinical depression (I have yet to get checked out for that, but I know for sure that none of the things that have happened to me make me that way because it just happens randomly and lasts for at least a whole day [I sometimes even wake up feeling like that], sometimes for several days in a row, and it takes a good while to get back to my normal self afterward).


If anyone else can think of what stuff like that might be for me, please let me know.

Mood swings can be triggered by diet (e.g., hypoglycemia and sugar). Next time this hits you might want to quickly review what you've been eating.

[Eric86]

I have a pretty regular, healthy, balanced diet, though my appetite overall has decreased a lot over the past few years. I also know that when I don't eat, my blood glucose level is pretty much always at 80, and it doesn't drop below 75.

[mkay]

Eric, if it's hormonal or chemical, maybe a doctor can treat that? I feel for you and don't mean to sound like I'm making light: If doctors can give people sex changes, it seems like they should be able to help you.

[Eric86]

oh, btw, those 'episodes' or whatever you want to call them are sometimes accompanied by bad headaches.

A couple weeks ago (I don't know if this is related at all), I was in the bathroom at work, and I randomly almost passed out. It got to the point where my vision was limited to only a few feet in diameter. I was super light-headed and nauseous and numb and couldn't hardly stand up. This is only the second time this has happened, the first time being several years ago.

[curiousjane]

Hey, Eric, I don't know what to say about your PMS-like symptoms, but I can assure you that you are not alone as a male INFJ in some of your traits.

I have a very wonderful, very straight male friend who is INFJ and he is, as some of my friends put it, the gayest straight man you will ever meet. He can cook gourmet meals, sew his own pants, quilt, decorate his home, paint art, collect art prints, and even bedazzle! He is kind, empathetic, and quite funny. His hilarious, biting, sarcastic side comes out once in awhile when you least expect it from this mild-mannered guy.

Yet because of his interests, and his "softer" features, and snappy style of dress (yes, I just said "snappy", it seemed to fit) I am sure he is often considered effeminate, even though nothing could be further from the truth.

[mkay]

It's good to hear that men on this thread don't associate assertiveness with being unfeminine. I wonder whether it's because of NT-ness or age. ... The men I've gotten the uncomfortable vibe from have been older ones, though I don't know their types.

Funny, I was just remembering back to when I was a reporter, covering courts. There was an older male judge who made clear he didn't like women wearing pants in his courtroom. He couldn't make you not wear them, of course, but it paid not to annoy the judge if you wanted any kind of cooperation from him or his staff.

[Cality]

In short, most of you, guys, like tomboys inside but girls outside...

[AutisticCuckoo]

For me, manifestations of femininity are mostly about mannerisms (standing, walking, use of hands, facial expressions, etc.) Dress doesn't have much to do with it, make-up doesn't have much to do with it.

I agree. I don't think I can even point out which gestures or facial expressions I consider feminine or masculine, but that's where it is.

Clothes or make-up don't matter much, although I guess the hairdo can make a bit of difference. In fact a really feminine woman can appear even more feminine with short hair, neutral or masculine clothes, little or no make-up, etc.

[phantasma]

Makes me wonder what I am, so far as personality goes. I look and dress like a girl, though I draw the line at pink and lace. However, being an INTP, I have a more masculine personality. I guess I'll find my niche eventually.

[zibber]

no make up, hairs not straightened ... you dont seem to care a lot about your appearance

A lot of people fall prey to this pesky convention, the notion that women who wear no make-up and don't shave their legs, for instance, don't "take care" of themselves. (Especially the second one.) This is purely a cultural construction and doesn't actually say anything about how well you take care of yourself, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if I were you. I'd actually resent someone actively pointing it out, as it is that kind of critical verbal utterance that only reinforces the beauty myth.

[Freak87]

A lot of people fall prey to this pesky convention, the notion that women who wear no make-up and don't shave their legs, for instance, don't "take care" of themselves. (Especially the second one.) This is purely a cultural construction and doesn't actually say anything about how well you take care of yourself, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if I were you. I'd actually resent someone actively pointing it out, as it is that kind of critical verbal utterance that only reinforces the beauty myth.

nice lol





Freak87 added to this post, 2 minutes and 4 seconds later...

i dont think he meant it in a mean way. im starting to realize that being a tomboy is ok. its doesnt make me any less feminine. there are guys who are attracted to me and they are DEFINITELY a particular type so i have a type- thats good

[JessicaHavenLea]

I own ONE dress. Am I a Tom Boy? Pink is not my favorite color. I rarely wear make-up. The "prissy" thing annoys the hell out of me. Females who exaggerate their femininity seem to be overcompensating for something...intelligence maybe?

[jikin]

I have to admit that in the last couple of years that I've forced myself to at least look more feminine. It wasn't so much to bow to the traditional role, but I was having a problem that with not looking or acting feminine that guys tended to think that I was into other girls. This was making it a bit hard to attract the kind of guys I like.
So I forced myself to start wearing make-up and things other than t-shirts and jeans. I has become a bit more natural now, but at first it was hard.
Granted, I still don't act too feminine. I'm horrible at flirting (it has a tendency to be sarcastic and is sometimes seen as an attack). I'm also not going to make eyes at you from across the room (ack! eye contact!) Girly things tend to annoy me, and no, I won't jump into your arms screaming like a school girl when I see a snake. I will probably try to catch it, and possibly also that interesting spider over there. What type do you think it is?

[Seppuku Savant]

I own ONE dress. Am I a Tom Boy? Pink is not my favorite color. I rarely wear make-up. The "prissy" thing annoys the hell out of me. Females who exaggerate their femininity seem to be overcompensating for something...intelligence maybe?

Some people aren't very intelligent, but that's o.k. You don't personally have to associate with them. It takes all types to keep the world running. I would never want to be a hairdresser, or clothing designer etc.

On the flip side, I've dated a lot of feminine looking women. A couple engineers and a doctor. They definitely weren't compensating for brain matter.

[PRBori]

Hmm... well I do things a normal women wouldn't do.. I change my car sparkplugs every 15 days, check the oils in the car, have worked in construction ( remember coming home wet and dirty after power washing a wall or skrapping paint...)

I don't wear dresses or skirts much, although I'm getting a bit more into skirts... of course with shorts under, I can't wear them without pants. I do not use make up in a daily basis or fancy up my hair. I do however like pink and have quite a few pieces of pink, actually I have a pair of Timberland Boots in Fushia and another pair of Timberland Tennis shoes white leather with pink. My favorite mix is grey with pink. Ironically...

I like wearing jean jumpers... just got a DISNEY jumper the other day... I wear clothes that are comfortable and don't give it shit what others think of it.

At work I tend to use lot's of pants... only when I go out to a site do I wear skirts... button shirts don't go with me.. had one the other day which open up while on a meeting and the men instead of saying something he just stared at my breast... so I'm skrapping them off my closet. I can't seem to fit them well from the top so they have to go, I mean I hate to buy 1X just to fit the twins.

I do not flirt, and I hate men who try to flirt with me... it annoys the hell out of me which is one of the reasons why I tend to not show a lot but I'm working on it.

I don't have long nails, I don't like painting my hand nails, but I would paint my feet once in a while, depends on my mood. In general I don't look to femenine or act too femenine, but if the need arise I have no issues behaving more femenine.. I just don't see the point of it because I have no desire to meet more men at this point, so why the hell should I make myself attractive?

I like the fact What you see is what you get... so if a men is interested in me he will not judge me for my physical appearance, but will try to know more about me as a person. That's my view on the whole Femenine issue.

[Freak87]

Hmm... well I do things a normal women wouldn't do.. I change my car sparkplugs every 15 days, check the oils in the car, have worked in construction ( remember coming home wet and dirty after power washing a wall or skrapping paint...)

I don't wear dresses or skirts much, although I'm getting a bit more into skirts... of course with shorts under, I can't wear them without pants. I do not use make up in a daily basis or fancy up my hair. I do however like pink and have quite a few pieces of pink, actually I have a pair of Timberland Boots in Fushia and another pair of Timberland Tennis shoes white leather with pink. My favorite mix is grey with pink. Ironically...

I like wearing jean jumpers... just got a DISNEY jumper the other day... I wear clothes that are comfortable and don't give it shit what others think of it.


At work I tend to use lot's of pants... only when I go out to a site do I wear skirts... button shirts don't go with me.. had one the other day which open up while on a meeting and the men instead of saying something he just stared at my breast... so I'm skrapping them off my closet. I can't seem to fit them well from the top so they have to go, I mean I hate to buy 1X just to fit the twins.

I do not flirt, and I hate men who try to flirt with me... it annoys the hell out of me which is one of the reasons why I tend to not show a lot but I'm working on it.

I don't have long nails, I don't like painting my hand nails, but I would paint my feet once in a while, depends on my mood. In general I don't look to femenine or act too femenine, but if the need arise I have no issues behaving more femenine.. I just don't see the point of it because I have no desire to meet more men at this point, so why the hell should I make myself attractive?

I like the fact What you see is what you get... so if a men is interested in me he will not judge me for my physical appearance, but will try to know more about me as a person. That's my view on the whole Femenine issue.





Freak87 added to this post, 2 minutes and 19 seconds later...

WOW. I can SO relate to you. I like to flirt though. WOW. I am so tomboy in this way. maybe this is a sign of psychological illness, maturity or just personality, upbringing but I don't feel the need to please men. I don't like to dress up because, what's the point. the clothes, hair, make-up aren't what they're looking at anyway. and im just not conscious of my actions- i just like to be myself. ive always felt very alone in acting this way because so many girls in my high school did not operate that way. your account wow. i also like to be modest/hate guys staring so I try to cover up. I try to cover up more than show. and I do have a full-figure like you up-top and I don't like it! I struggle to buy clothes that fit! haha. cool.


and i also dont care what people think i wear. because of society i have been increasingly caring- only because of major societal exposure and the desire to be somewhat normal but it kind of bothers me- what do you care what im wearing? the clothes are not the person. i love wearing whatevers comfortable and fun. whats the point? impressing people is dumb. if its for a job interview im done, otherwise, id rather not dress up for a date/school, etc.

[Evalind]

I'm probably not feminine most of the time, but I have a "girly" side. I like cute stuff, like shoujo anime and baby animals. I giggle a bit too much sometimes.

As for the original question, certain dictionary definitions are more vague than how I see the word generally used. "Of or relating to women or girls," for example, doesn't specify much. "Characterized by or possessing qualities generally attributed to a woman," is better, but still a little vague. "Cat fights" are attributed to women, but I wouldn't consider them feminine.

[Synamon]

I proudly describe myself as a tomboy, it sets me apart. I can get glammed up when I want to, I like to flirt and go to the spa, but most of the time I have no make up and a pony tail. My husband appreciates that I'm so low maintenance. When we are at our cabin he often remarks that all the other wives are completely unhelpful doing all the chores and how great it is that I am a tomboy.

You just need to find the person who appreciates the benefits of being a tomboy.

[zibber]

nice lol
i dont think he meant it in a mean way.

No, but that's the problem! These conventions are taken for granted, and from the cradle every human (in the West at least, but this specific aspect of our culture is spreading) is imprinted with the notion that nonshaving women are abnormal beasts. (The problem's much less urgent with make-up.) Even my most free-thinking friends get a bit uneasy when I bring this up, it's an extremely pervasive myth.

[Freak87]

A lot of people fall prey to this pesky convention, the notion that women who wear no make-up and don't shave their legs, for instance, don't "take care" of themselves. (Especially the second one.) This is purely a cultural construction and doesn't actually say anything about how well you take care of yourself, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if I were you. I'd actually resent someone actively pointing it out, as it is that kind of critical verbal utterance that only reinforces the beauty myth.

this is FREAK87- my account broke...somehow...anyways, I agree with you Jarno, absolutely. they didn't shave their legs in old times- why is it such a big deal now. it's just ridiculous. also, what ive decided, people have noticed im conscious of this and they just said, be yourself, and i think that's right. i think the comment hurt. it would have been better if he didn't say "you aren't feminine." i think a more accurate description would be "you're not very girly" which i already know. im a female and i am feminine!

[Indubitably]

Hips, and the ability to bear offspring. Seriously though, pretty much everything else is cultural/social and thus subject to situation, geographic location, and personal taste of the individual in question.

Personally, I think of women that are stoic and quiet yet intelligent, have an almost wiry physic, and very pronounced sharp features, as being ideally effeminate, yet those are perhaps all characteristics that are traditionally considered masculine in the US. It really seems to have nothing to do with how submissive or dominant she is, but she does need to have an opinion and be willing to challenge my point of view or I will become bored with her (but then that is true of anyone). Aggressive women can be fun, but ultimately aggression is a sign of insecurity and thus I tend to see it as mental weakness, which often leads to me becoming bored with a person as I find them to be less and less mentally challenging.

[mkay]

Aggressive women can be fun, but ultimately aggression is a sign of insecurity and thus I tend to see it as mental weakness, which often leads to me becoming bored with a person as I find them to be less and less mentally challenging.

I hear what you're saying. But I respect women who aren't afraid to be aggressive in certain circumstances, the same as I do men. Of course, that doesn't mean I want to be around someone who's constantly aggressive -- that signals to me that something is wrong with that person. But anyone who is overly nice and overly accommodating will never get my respect. The ones I've known tend to be approval-seeking or otherwise lack self-esteem. ... Balance is key to me.

[Indubitably]

I hear what you're saying. But I respect women who aren't afraid to be aggressive in certain circumstances, the same as I do men. Of course, that doesn't mean I want to be around someone who's constantly aggressive -- that signals to me that something is wrong with that person. But anyone who is overly nice and overly accommodating will never get my respect. The ones I've known tend to be approval-seeking or otherwise lack self-esteem. ... Balance is key to me.

I would be careful not to confuse aggression with confidence or honesty. A woman that will let you know what she wants, without cringing in shame and fear is not aggressive, she just doesn't hate her self. Aggressive behavior and desperation go hand in hand. Any time someone is on the offensive as it were, I have to wonder what they are so worried about. If they are confident they don't need to worry about jumping a guy's bones the min they have the opportunity. Some of the girls I've met, lay on the charm thicker than Tammy fay baker piles on layers of foundation. It comes of as cheap, and clingy. Its just that the traditional clingy sends out a "I am flawed and need you to make me whole" vibe, where as the aggressive thing sends out the "I am flawed and need a victim to target in order to distract myself from the constant reminders of how weak I really feel" kind of vibe. Neither are indicative of confidence.

[mkay]

I would be careful not to confuse aggression with confidence or honesty. A woman that will let you know what she wants, without cringing in shame and fear is not aggressive, she just doesn't hate her self. Aggressive behavior and desperation go hand in hand. Any time someone is on the offensive as it were, I have to wonder what they are so worried about. If they are confident they don't need to worry about jumping a guy's bones the min they have the opportunity. Some of the girls I've met, lay on the charm thicker than Tammy fay baker piles on layers of foundation. It comes of as cheap, and clingy. Its just that the traditional clingy sends out a "I am flawed and need you to make me whole" vibe, where as the aggressive thing sends out the "I am flawed and need a victim to target in order to distract myself from the constant reminders of how weak I really feel" kind of vibe. Neither are indicative of confidence.

I think you're talking about aggression in narrower terms than I am. I'm talking about being aggressive in the workplace, for instance, not seeing someone's personality through personal relationships exclusively. I've been married for a long time, so I tend not to focus on dating and such.

[Indubitably]

I think you're talking about aggression in narrower terms than I am. I'm talking about being aggressive in the workplace, for instance, not seeing someone's personality through personal relationships exclusively. I've been married for a long time, so I tend not to focus on dating and such.

Hmm.. although I was talking specifically about agression in the context of romantic relationships, I do belive that it tends to carry over to professional relationships as well. Granted, I am not saying that fear and insecurity are always inappropriate reactions. If you are being sued by a rival company because they want to eliminate you as a compeditor, you should be afraid, because the well being of your company is indeed insecure. If someone reacts to that insecurity with an inapropriate level of agression based on an emotional inability to cope with the threat however, it comes off just as cheezy as it does in a romantic situation. If the person approaches the situation rationally and stratigically it, then chooses to take an offensive stance, because they feel it is the most efficient reaction to their situation, I find it much more impressive.

[mkay]

Hmm.. although I was talking specifically about agression in the context of romantic relationships, I do belive that it tends to carry over to professional relationships as well. Granted, I am not saying that fear and insecurity are always inappropriate reactions. If you are being sued by a rival company because they want to eliminate you as a compeditor, you should be afraid, because the well being of your company is indeed insecure. If someone reacts to that insecurity with an inapropriate level of agression based on an emotional inability to cope with the threat however, it comes off just as cheezy as it does in a romantic situation. If the person approaches the situation rationally and stratigically it, then chooses to take an offensive stance, because they feel it is the most efficient reaction to their situation, I find it much more impressive.

I think we might be in general agreement. What I've seen in work (getting resources as a manager, negotiating salary, setting job parameters, getting perks, etc.) and getting business done (like buying a house, getting a remodel done, negotiating a car purchase, getting what you paid for as a consumer, that sort of thing) is that women tend to be too nice and accommodating. They get taken advantage of, often are afraid to ask or demand, to say, hey, don't even think of trying to pull something on me. That's why women often make less than men for the same work, get overcharged for cars, etc. Women often are conditioned to be taken advantage of; they're afraid to be seen as not nice or feminine. ... Again, balance is important, being able to be aggressive (not using aggression all the time) is important.

[Vivid]

Oddly (I know this is simple and specific), I think it's purely in the eyes.

[Homini Lupus]

I think it's better to differentiate asserive women form weak-aggressive women. The former ones know what they want and try to achieve it; they may seem aggressive in doing so, but they know they have but one life and they're not going to waste it in order to be "nice". The latter is just plain weak. I had to deal with one some years ago; she tried to use every stupid occasion to show in inconsistent ways that women are better than males in doing "male" things (like playing the playstation) but basically offending the whole feminine genre by showing how she considered them inferior and considered manhood something better. I respect the former ones and avoid the latter.

[iuniperus]

for the guys, and girls, but mostly the guys for the question, what is feminine to you? what do you classify as unfeminine? what do you classify as tomboy.

the other day someone told me I am not feminine and I'm a tom-boy. they say my body language, the fact i hit people for jokings sake/playfully, the way i dress, no make up, hairs not straightened. he said- you dont seem to care a lot about your appearance but I wear girls clothes

my question is, what is feminine, what is un-feminine? are you attracted to feminine, unfeminine or both?


Looks: Soft curves. Long hair. Dresses. Skirts. Slender body type. Delicate bone structure. Full lips. Dainty hands.


Demeanor: Demure. Shy. Compassionate. Soft-spoken. Graceful. Composed.

Here's what I feel to be inherently feminine. But what do I know, femininity is really subjective to the person who defines it.

[TheLastMohican]

for the guys, and girls, but mostly the guys for the question, what is feminine to you? what do you classify as unfeminine? what do you classify as tomboy.

That is hard to "classify."

Looks are pretty obvious; If I can't determine your gender by your face, I will find you vaguely unnerving, at least at first meeting.

I assume you are referring more to personality traits, though. Common behaviors can be indicators: femininity is often related to timidness and voluntary dependency. What surprises me is that anyone thinks of this as good or attractive. I hasten to add that I do not agree with those definitions when they claim to accurately represent the differences between men and women. They don't. It also should be noted that common conceptions of masculinity imply that improper aggressiveness and reckless behaviors are good in masculine terms. Both stereotypes are troublesome.

Of course I would want my hypothetical SO to be feminine rather than masculine. But I mean that in very light terms. As long as she is a female of suitable age and belief systems, I don't mind a good dose of well-placed aggressiveness. I would certainly want my SO to have plenty of confidence where she has reason for it, and to at least be bold enough to engage in debates and hold her own. I would find too much stereotypical "femininity" annoying. This would include tendencies toward pointless "shopping" and small talk. I would want someone reasonable and practical, but with a good imagination and theoretical skills.

(In short, I am picky.)

[PRBori]

Freak87 added to this post, 2 minutes and 19 seconds later...

WOW. I can SO relate to you. I like to flirt though. WOW. I am so tomboy in this way. maybe this is a sign of psychological illness, maturity or just personality, upbringing but I don't feel the need to please men. I don't like to dress up because, what's the point. the clothes, hair, make-up aren't what they're looking at anyway. and im just not conscious of my actions- i just like to be myself. ive always felt very alone in acting this way because so many girls in my high school did not operate that way. your account wow. i also like to be modest/hate guys staring so I try to cover up. I try to cover up more than show. and I do have a full-figure like you up-top and I don't like it! I struggle to buy clothes that fit! haha. cool.


and i also dont care what people think i wear. because of society i have been increasingly caring- only because of major societal exposure and the desire to be somewhat normal but it kind of bothers me- what do you care what im wearing? the clothes are not the person. i love wearing whatevers comfortable and fun. whats the point? impressing people is dumb. if its for a job interview im done, otherwise, id rather not dress up for a date/school, etc.

I think there are quite a few women that think the same way as we do and facing the same issues. I have a hard time with clothes, and a hard time attracting the wrong crowd when I try to dress up more femenine which I guess is another reason why I don't care to look or act more femenine.

Is funny, I recall a few weeks back I look like a real townboy big jeans and a T-shirt and I had my hands all greasy because I was changing the sparkplugs in the car... all of the sudden the men in my complex started to stare and one of them came up to me and help me work in my car, then shaked my greasy hand... I lived in the complex for over 1 year and so has he... and know everytime he sees me tries to get my attention... Not that it matter cause I honestly don't pay mind to it.. but there are men who can see beyond the femenine side.

Seriously, if a men likes me it better be because he took the time to talk to me first not because of how I look. I can change my look anytime, and can be very femenine if I really want it...

Was femenine for a men... hmm... a women who wears dresses or skirts with high heels, takes care of her nails and feet, does her hair nicely and wears make-up. That's superficial... a women who is very delicate as to how she deals with others... also superficial. I can do that if I really wanted to... but I rather be me plain and simple.


That said the physical appearance is something that can always be modify or work out as necessary, but the brain, way of thinking, values, and behavior of a person can hardly be change in the long term. That's why I prefer to get to know the person inside out first and then worry about the physical.... but I won't deny... to me his face must be cute and attractive, for that's the main area I'm concern about to start with. The eyes are always a killer too... light greyish, hazel, light brown, or green get my attention...

[Mozzes]

Hmm... well I do things a normal women wouldn't do.. I change my car sparkplugs every 15 days

Huh? Average plug life is 45,000 miles. Why do you change your plugs every 15 days?

[TheLastMohican]

Huh? Average plug life is 45,000 miles. Why do you change your plugs every 15 days?

Note that she preceded that with "I do things a normal woman wouldn't do..."

[Mozzes]

Note that she preceded that with "I do things a normal woman wouldn't do..."

True. I guess in the spirit of that comment she could be driving the 3,000 miles per day which would cause her to have to replace her plugs every 15 days.

[blckprljinju]

I own ONE dress. Am I a Tom Boy? Pink is not my favorite color. I rarely wear make-up. The "prissy" thing annoys the hell out of me. Females who exaggerate their femininity seem to be overcompensating for something...intelligence maybe?

You hit the mark! From what I've seen for the past 20 or so years of my life, that seemed to be the case.

[gogurtdynasty]

for the guys, and girls, but mostly the guys for the question, what is feminine to you? what do you classify as unfeminine? what do you classify as tomboy.

the other day someone told me I am not feminine and I'm a tom-boy. they say my body language, the fact i hit people for jokings sake/playfully, the way i dress, no make up, hairs not straightened. he said- you dont seem to care a lot about your appearance but I wear girls clothes

my question is, what is feminine, what is un-feminine? are you attracted to feminine, unfeminine or both?

Erg... I read this and it made me kind of want to punch somebody...

*twitches in violent twitchiness*

I've experienced similar situations and it just hits my buttons like you would or wouldn't believe... I think it's absolutely ridiculous, just because i don't have an obstructive array of swinging sensitivity flopping around my pants, that I should be expected to direct all of my energies towards painting my face and curling my hair... By all social standards its as if women are supposed to live in some facade consisting of a love for housework and untaintable innocence...

In my opinion Masculinity and Femininity are one in the same... utter and complete bullshit

Androgyny is where it's at my friends :)

[PRBori]

Huh? Average plug life is 45,000 miles. Why do you change your plugs every 15 days?

My car is an oldy that has a few issues and one of them is that the plugs get oil or carbon residue on them and it gets so bad that I have to change them every 15 days... therefore until I'm able to fix the issue, I have to change them.





PRBori added to this post, 1 minutes and 28 seconds later...

Note that she preceded that with "I do things a normal woman wouldn't do..."


jejeje... you're funny... but that's true, how many women do you know change the car plugs?

Most women hate getting their hands dirty or greasy..

[TheLastMohican]

jejeje... you're funny...

Thanks. I try.

but that's true, how many women do you know change the car plugs?

Far too few. I wish more people knew what they were doing with their cars, especially for relatively easy things like oil changes.

[gogurtdynasty]

Most women just aren't raised in environments that give them the opportunity to understand that basic car repairs are simple and generally easy... but its not very sensible to blame them for that

Not everybody has the self motivation or ability to teach themselves such skills

[PreyingMantis]

Feminine is whatever the society it's in decides it is. As such, it is arbitrary (in general - okay, there are limits, but they are probably nothing you've ever seen, in most cases) - apart from things like possession of breasts, slightly higher voice, etc. Whatever is supposed to be feminine and is strongly supported throughout the social structure can predominate as traits in women.

Maybe i need some examples here ... um ... where is my sensing side to provide the realistic details ... ?

Why pay any attention to it (that is, the notion of "femininity"), apart from for the purpose of ridding yourself of artificial limitations that it suits some common/influential or powerful/influential people that you be? Even they probably don't know where they're coming from. If someone whose opinion really matters to you is limited by that notion, you can easily demonstrate its absurdity - or else they're not interested in the truth.

Find out what you believe in. It's not an instantaneous process. It takes years and years.

Be what you believe in.