When Alien Civilizations Collide

[SirJac]

Consider how quickly we are finding how common planets are in our galaxy, and how even the prerequisites of life are seemingly common enough to appear on not just once but twice within our solar system. With the possibility of actually finding alien life on Mars in the near future, it’s becoming increasingly likely that we are in fact not alone and our galaxy is in fact teeming with life in one form or another. With that it would also stand to reason that there is quite likely a number of true intelligent species living in our galaxy as well.

But what are the chances that a much more advanced race exists that can actually travel the oceans of space exists? Physics as we know it says the absolute speed limit is the speed of light, which is still rather slow when you’re trying to get around since by time you get there everyone you knew at home is dead. But we’ve only known about this speed limit for about 75 years which is a mere moment when you look at the age of our galaxy and how old an intelligent species could potentially be. Give us even 1000 years and I’m sure humanity could find a feasible way to get around it, considering how much we have advanced since Einstein. So if there are advanced civilizations in our galaxy there is a good chance that they have mastered space travel in some form, and could have the means to reach Earth.

Let’s continue to assume that we are in fact not unique but actually fairly common, that we will not be the first intelligent species to discover another. In fact, we could likely not be the first civilization our aliens have come across. What happens when a technologically superior civilization comes across a much more primitive society? Well when white man began exploring the world we either killed or enslaved them. Eventually we decided that that was too brutal and instead we started stealing their resources and corrupting them. If history has taught us nothing it’s that when a technologically superior civilization interacts with a technologically inferior civilization, the primitive civilization usually suffers greatly.

If a destructive alien civilization came across Earth, they would probably kill/enslave us all and take all of our resources. Since that hasn’t happened, then it’s probably safe to assume that no destructive civilization has happened across us so far. Why? Possibly because destructive civilizations tend to destroy themselves before they discover feasible space travel. That would make destructive civilizations rare in the galaxy and make it more likely that any aliens we meet will be more benevolent.

If a more benevolent alien race happened across us, they would probably already know how interference would likely cause great damage to our civilization. Even if an alien race is generally good willed, it seems unlikely that they would be completely immune to corruption. We’re not perfect; I doubt any intelligent alien life is. So if a benevolent alien race came across humanity, then they would like enforce a no-contact policy to prevent any of their people from taking advantage of their technology to profit at humanity’s expense. Instead they would more likely observe us from afar for scientific merit. I would imagine we are probably much more interesting to any alien race observing us with our advance to the information age, alien scientists probably know as much about our world as we do

Once humanity develops to the point that it discovers a key technology, likely somehow related to space flight, then they will likely allow themselves to be discovered. As being a much more advanced civilization, they probably have much experience with first contacts and will take measures to do it as to not provoke hostility (I imagine people would be a lot more comfortable with “scientists discovering aliens” rather then being discovered).

But what would humanity do if it developed space travel and found a more primitive race of life? Looking at us now, we’d probably “trade” with them and consume their resource they don’t know how to utilize yet and eventually they’ll become another victim of “capitalism”. Hopefully we aren’t discovered by an alien race of merchants and bankers.

But perhaps our society will evolve between now and when we learn to travel space. It would seem that going back to the destructive alien race that self-annihilation is quite good in terms of galactic evolution. Potentially destructive species would tend to destroy themselves and either wipe themselves out or fight often enough that they don’t learn how to get off their planet, which eventually can’t sustain them anymore and starts to die. It would only be the peaceful and sustainable civilizations that survive and populate the galaxy.

[Marcus]

This is a similar question like the one we had with the Amazonian tribe:

A new uncontacted tribe was discovered in the Amazons by a plane (...)

[Homini Lupus]

Science and technology give us new tools but we also have to find how to use them and there is not a universal method to develop ethics yet. Meeting a new race would lead to many question... Would we recognize them as a living species? If so, would we grant them a cathegory similar to humanity or would we consider them as american natives, black people etc. have been treated in the past?

[Beery Swine]

I've seen that Star Trek movie too. There's a third possibility (there's undoubtedly many more): they are neither destructive nor benevolent, but instead indifferent merchants. Earth might be in the way of a galactic superhighway. Oops, I'm revealing my inner geek.:nerd:

[Monte314]

Einstein said, "We are a people of perfect means and confused ends."

Our technology will only change to better serve what we are. It's morally neutral, and has no direction other than what we give it. Technology will not lead us anywhere... it will follow our passions, as it has always done.

[sam988]

As someone said above, maybe our race is just like those indians in the Amazons... an unsuspecting primitive civilisation living in an universe's "protected/conserved area", so that we the ants don't get extinct because our planet/solar system is in the way of a possible interstellar highway.

[Bioplasmoid]

I have wondered this also... :thumbsup:

[konec]

If a destructive alien civilization came across Earth, they would probably kill/enslave us all and take all of our resources. Since that hasn’t happened, then it’s probably safe to assume that no destructive civilization has happened across us so far. Why? Possibly because destructive civilizations tend to destroy themselves before they discover feasible space travel. That would make destructive civilizations rare in the galaxy and make it more likely that any aliens we meet will be more benevolent.


Why would you assume this?

Humans being able to get into space at the time that they did, was only possible because of the technological leaps made during WWII.

[SirJac]

Why would you assume this?

Humans being able to get into space at the time that they did, was only possible because of the technological leaps made during WWII.

You have to note that we still haven't discovered feasible space travel yet. For now we're still stuck in our solar system with training wheels on our spaceships. Until we have permanent colonies outside this solar system, we are still bound to earth. If we continue our self-destructive ways, then it is certainly possible that we could completely destroy the environment, or have a nuclear world war, or any of the other end of the world scenarios we can create for ourselves to occur before we manage to get outside the solar system.

If we can't get to that point, then it doesn't matter how we first got into space since it didn't do us any good in the end.

[Grizzly]

Even if there is no workable FTL propulsion method the question is still viable. If fact the lack of ftl travel means that any successful space travel would involve generation ships or some form of cryogenic suspension.

So......the likelyhood of them being hostile seems to be increased with the generation ship model.
As the persons arriving would not be the original crew, they would be the subsequent generation(s) childrens children. Most likley raised with the idea that they are traveling to the land of plenty, a paradise so much better than the life on the ship that they and they're parents knew.
Fuffilling the dream of their forefathers.

So how likely are they to care about the locals???
If they can build ships capable of surviving inter-system travel, not to mention vessels large enough to carry a viable breeding population with the assumption that many will die in transit, then they can certainly build some pretty effective weapons.

Though if they used a form of cyrogenic suspension to transport the crew the insane distances we are talking about then its tougher to say.
They could be Star Trek like hippy aliens, or they could be the tyranids.....

[konec]

You have to note that we still haven't discovered feasible space travel yet. For now we're still stuck in our solar system with training wheels on our spaceships.
true.

Until we have permanent colonies outside this solar system, we are still bound to earth. If we continue our self-destructive ways, then it is certainly possible that we could completely destroy the environment, or have a nuclear world war, or any of the other end of the world scenarios we can create for ourselves to occur before we manage to get outside the solar system.

If we can't get to that point, then it doesn't matter how we first got into space since it didn't do us any good in the end.
The point I was trying to make was not that we got into space because of a war, but more that war (in general) seems to boast technological advancements and a statement that destructive (hostile?) civilizations are not likely to discover feasible space travel seem to contradict eachother. Our species has been destructive for thousands of years and yet we're still here.

[SirJac]

We've only had the power to competely destroy our race for 60 years. Any violence before never had the potential to actually destroy the human race so it didn't matter what our tendencies were. Now that we have nukes we're not just playing with pretend money anymore and I'm not so sure on our long term survival.

[sam988]

We've only had the power to competely destroy our race for 60 years. Any violence before never had the potential to actually destroy the human race so it didn't matter what our tendencies were. Now that we have nukes we're not just playing with pretend money anymore and I'm not so sure on our long term survival.


That's true. 60 years is not long at all. And with our constantly improving technology and the constant increase in our capabilities of destroying ourselves more easily (with nanoweapons, or with bioengineering), the thought of some misanthropic "mad scientist" with the plan of destroying humanity gets more and more scary. And he will probably be an INTJ... :scared:

[Jakalwarrior]

the thought of some misanthropic "mad scientist" with the plan of destroying humanity gets more and more scary. And he will probably be an INTJ... :scared:

That was actually my dream back in my school days.

One thing to add though, why would they need our resources? they might need our labor, as in having us supply them the material with no work on their part... but I am sure that any resource we have here on earth is present in larger quantities elswhere in the universe... probably without the fungus called mankind growing on its surface blocking easy extraction.

[SirJac]

Resources are finite so further growth always needs more resources. Habitable planets are probably still rare, which would make them a valuable resource in itself. Also intergalactic politics could further restrict viable planets for colonial expantion and fuel competition, similiar to the colonialization of the new world. I would think that Earth is probably prime real estate for any intergalactic civilization.

[Eth]

That's true. 60 years is not long at all. And with our constantly improving technology and the constant increase in our capabilities of destroying ourselves more easily (with nanoweapons, or with bioengineering), the thought of some misanthropic "mad scientist" with the plan of destroying humanity gets more and more scary. And he will probably be an INTJ... :scared:

*raises hand*
Probably will be me.


I can understand what you're saying using "good and evil" civilizations as examples, but I think that is a bit narrow on the subject. We may call them good or evil, but like many of us, some things others may think might be "evil," we call them efficient. Any species that far technologically advanced we could also assume would have a far better system of morality then us, if all else a far better understanding of morality compared to ours. What we may see as wrong may be completely justified as "right" by a "good or bad" civilization. We just wouldn't be able to comprehend it because we are so young. So a "good" civilization would be just as likely to destroy us as a "bad" civilization. It's dependent on the paths of knowledge and it's acceptance that they took. The advancement of technology, knowledge, and even morality is not linear. You can skip "advancements" as well as get a completely different answer from them. It's all situational.

Also, one doesn't always have to understand a technology to use it, or even be boosted by it. We as countries steal technology from each other all the time. We use them, and THEN figure out what we're supposed to do with it most of the time. The more complex it is, the less likely we may be to jump the gun in its use, but it certainly won't stop us. If you want to look in sci-fi terms, think the Goauld(sp) from Stargate. They acquired technology from other species and used it for themselves, they didn't really do any work. They were scavengers.

Yes, war brings about many advancements to society. But here's the thing. Most of the time, the technologies already existed, the rest of us just didn't know about it. Will we destroy ourselves? Most likely. Is it a race against the clock? It always is. But how long a good or bad civilization has before their planet dies isn't based solely on their morality, it's more based on how the planet they inhabit works and what it has. If our planet was twice its size we would have a lot longer and a lot more resources to guard our errors with. If it was half its size, who knows what the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bomb could have done, we might not be here right now.

There's a lot of variables you would have to consider. What's in this thread already is a good place to start. But it really is a BIG question. We'll be here forever debating it, and I'll be glad to hear what everyone has to say. As for HOW to travel between the stars? I'm a big fan of the folding space theory. ^^ But that's just me.

[Rafael]

<raises hand>

Maybe they will have nothing we could qualify as "culture", maybe they'll have nothing like "morals" or "destruction", maybe they would develop in a unique way we would not understand a little bit of. Think of "alien-like cultures", a cultural shock between an african tribesman and some random New Yorker is nothing compared ot a cultural shock of alien civilizations. And if all this life in space and scientific theories are right, life appeared by accident, it could well be generated in a way it would not ressemble life as we know it in any way, evolutional theories are as random as they can be, and that's HYPER RANDOM, there's no way to even theorize something like that. Think about that, hyper desenvolved alien races could be anything. ANYTHING. This is so open-ended that all of our minds capacity would be exhausted before we barely began to work on the possibilities.

But I like the discussion anyway. :)

[PHS Philip]

Why would you assume this?

Humans being able to get into space at the time that they did, was only possible because of the technological leaps made during WWII.

But we're not looking like achieving interstellar travel any time soon, and we look very likely to wipe ourselves out in the next century or two. I think the only way humanity stands any chance of surviving itself into the era (if it's possible) of interstellar travel is to colonize anything and everything in our solar system, even the asteroids if possible, and definitely the Oort cloud (because the stuff out there is actually very rich in important elements). If we scatter ourselves enough, we probably can't destroy ourselves. On a single planet, anything from climate change to nanotech to disease to nukes to meteor impact can wipe us out.

And yeah, we probably wouldn't even recognize their intelligence, because they would have evolved in such a radically different environment, with totally different selective pressures. The selective pressures that pushed humanity are still visible in the way we think and act, so if all the pressures right back to the first multicellular species were different...

[Rafael]

:idea:

Why cells? They could bell cell-less.

[Beery Swine]

Even if there is no workable FTL propulsion method the question is still viable. If fact the lack of ftl travel means that any successful space travel would involve generation ships or some form of cryogenic suspension.

So......the likelyhood of them being hostile seems to be increased with the generation ship model.
As the persons arriving would not be the original crew, they would be the subsequent generation(s) childrens children. Most likley raised with the idea that they are traveling to the land of plenty, a paradise so much better than the life on the ship that they and they're parents knew.
Fuffilling the dream of their forefathers.

So how likely are they to care about the locals???
If they can build ships capable of surviving inter-system travel, not to mention vessels large enough to carry a viable breeding population with the assumption that many will die in transit, then they can certainly build some pretty effective weapons.

Though if they used a form of cyrogenic suspension to transport the crew the insane distances we are talking about then its tougher to say.
They could be Star Trek like hippy aliens, or they could be the tyranids.....

You don't need FTL travel to arrive at a destination thousands of light years away in just a few hours, for the traveller/s.

[Grizzly]

You don't need FTL travel to arrive at a destination thousands of light years away in just a few hours, for the traveller/s.

Right, its possible to use some form of cryogenic suspension to freeze the travelers for the journey.

But it would depend on too many variables to say how they would respond to finding their "new home" covered in hairless apes.

I think in the generation ship scenario they would almost certainly be hostile to us, in the Freezer ship.......not sure.

In all likelyhood though we will never meet another race, if it does occur, we will be meeting with a mechanical probe or simulated representative.

[Beery Swine]

Right, its possible to use some form of cryogenic suspension to freeze the travelers for the journey.

But it would depend on too many variables to say how they would respond to finding their "new home" covered in hairless apes.

I think in the generation ship scenario they would almost certainly be hostile to us, in the Freezer ship.......not sure.

In all likelyhood though we will never meet another race, if it does occur, we will be meeting with a mechanical probe or simulated representative.

You don't need cryonics either. Time dilation at speeds close to C will do.

Time dilation formula: find square root of 1-V^2/C^2

Seems like a pipe dream now, but might be commonplace in a few hundred years.

But I totally agree with you on the probe thing, unless the probe is meant to scout and report back to aliens for invasion. Tee-hee.

[thegnat]

You don't need cryonics either. Time dilation at speeds close to C will do.

Time dilation formula: find square root of 1-V^2/C^2

Seems like a pipe dream now, but might be commonplace in a few hundred years.

But I totally agree with you on the probe thing, unless the probe is meant to scout and report back to aliens for invasion. Tee-hee.

I just want to add a side note to your time dilation formula because I'm picky like that.

Proper time = time divided by said square root. The fact that the time is multiplied by the Lorentz factor (gamma which is the inverse of said square root) allows it to be "time dilation" rather than contraction as in length.

Carry on, carry on...

Psst: Personally I think that running into an alien civilization is something that will be so incredibly unexpected, and the civilization will be so incredibly different than ours that it'll be hard to tell what will happen. Given we get there, of course. Or they get here.

[Beery Swine]

I just want to add a side note to your time dilation formula because I'm picky like that.

Proper time = time divided by said square root. The fact that the time is multiplied by the Lorentz factor (gamma which is the inverse of said square root) allows it to be "time dilation" rather than contraction as in length.

Yeah, it slipped my mind. I'm no good at math, but sometimes things like a specific detail (see above) just come so naturally to me that I forget to point them out while explaining things, like they should be obvious to everyone. It actually causes me a fair amount of misunderstandings in real life, especially when I'm joking with people. They'll be like "What did you say!?!" and I'll be all "No, no, you got it wrong. Don't you see blah blah."

[Vertigo]

I thought Tachyon particles which are not discovered yet had a speed limitation of not being able to go slower than the speed of light, if that is the case then travellers could come to us very quickly, but then they have to figure out a way to stop and say hi without whizzing by us.

[Kisai]

.

If a destructive alien civilization came across Earth, they would probably kill/enslave us all and take all of our resources. Since that hasn’t happened, then it’s probably safe to assume that no destructive civilization has happened across us so far. Why? Possibly because destructive civilizations tend to destroy themselves before they discover feasible space travel. That would make destructive civilizations rare in the galaxy and make it more likely that any aliens we meet will be more benevolent.


This does not follow.

1)A spacefaring cilvilization can procure resources on an uninhabited planet, so why attack a planet with sentient beings on it?

2)A destructive civilization could have a probe in our solar system unseen, but hasn't got around to destroying us yet, perhaps waiting for the pleasure of waiting until we're spaceworthy before slaughtering us like sheep. There was a race of robots in the Revelation Space series by Alastair Reynolds, whose sole purpose was only to destroy space-faring civilizations so that when a cataclysmic future event, the collision of two galaxies, occured, the space-faring races wouldn't be able to stop the robots from the massive rearrangement of planets and stars to allow life to keep exisiting.

3)A destructive civilization could be like the Borg, assimilating rather than slash and burning. We'd be equally screwed.

[SirJac]

This does not follow.

1)A spacefaring cilvilization can procure resources on an uninhabited planet, so why attack a planet with sentient beings on it?

2)A destructive civilization could have a probe in our solar system unseen, but hasn't got around to destroying us yet, perhaps waiting for the pleasure of waiting until we're spaceworthy before slaughtering us like sheep. There was a race of robots in the Revelation Space series by Alastair Reynolds, whose sole purpose was only to destroy space-faring civilizations so that when a cataclysmic future event, the collision of two galaxies, occured, the space-faring races wouldn't be able to stop the robots from the massive rearrangement of planets and stars to allow life to keep exisiting.

3)A destructive civilization could be like the Borg, assimilating rather than slash and burning. We'd be equally screwed.

I think the most valuble resources for an intergalactic civilization would probably be the one we take for granted the most, a fertile planet capable of sustaining huge populations. Just because life is probably fairly common doesn't mean that fertile planets capable of supporting billions of individuals are also common. The law of exponential growth would lead us to believe that habital planets would probably be the most valueble resource for any growing civilization. Raw material resources are probably much more common and easy to aquire then new planets to inhabit.

As for the borg reference, it's equally possible. I don't intend to label alien socities as either evil or good, since that is entirely subjective. However, I don't see how interaction with an alien species could have no effect on humanity so it's easier to divide the possibilities into 2 groups; alien civilizations that would generally benifit humanity through interaction and alien civilizations that would generally harm humanity through interaction. Any interaction with an alien spicies will fall into on of those groups since there is no way that humanity would remain unchanged. So by simplfying it to "good" and "bad" aliens, I found it a little easier to explore the subject.

[Dzepxich]

I think that the surface of a planet is not a logical place to base a technological civilization.

Free space makes more sense to me. Unlimited sunlight for power & asteroids, moons, and comets for raw materials, without an energy consumtive gravity well to climb out of.

I think that with advances in nanotechnology and genetic engineering (baring self destruction), it will be less than 100 years before humanity can create new bodies for our consciousness to inhabit.

Once a race achieves mastery of nanotech, ageless, perpetually healthy bodies will be the norm.

If one had a body that was almost immortal, intersteller travel would be easy.

I would consider it possible that some of the "UFO"s that people see ARE the aliens themselves. Perhaps the "greys" are produced just to interact with humans, and then "reabsorbed" by the "alien".

Of course, nothing would prevent such an "alien" from creating a body that would look exactly like a human, for long term anthropological research.

If aliens exist, they are IMO, already here observing us, probably from within our civilization.

If they exist, they have probably already gene sampled the whole planet also.

Why would they bother with us? For our "primitive" and "unique" art, the only thing that would be unique about us. Any raw materials could be more easily harvested in the asteroid belt, or created with controled fusion.

[aparkedcar]

But what would humanity do if it developed space travel and found a more primitive race of life? Looking at us now, we’d probably “trade” with them and consume their resource they don’t know how to utilize yet and eventually they’ll become another victim of “capitalism”. Hopefully we aren’t discovered by an alien race of merchants and bankers.




Now hold on. I know capitalism can and is used to take advantage of others at times, but I believe that it is by far the best system out there. It gives people incentive to work hard and such. It also provides the potential to get ahead in life if you do indeed work hard and are in the right place at the right time. Trade with an alien civilization could be mutually beneficial. What I would personally hate to see is a primitive alien society turn communist/socialist because of us. Ok, so a little of topic.....

[thod]

I would consider it possible that some of the "UFO"s that people see ARE the aliens themselves. Perhaps the "greys" are produced just to interact with humans, and then "reabsorbed" by the "alien".

They don't seem to be interacting very well. I have never seen one. They seem too anthropomorphic to my eye. I prefer the theory that they are time travelers from some genetically engineering future.

If there were aliens out there then have access to infinite resources. Thus they would not need to come and steal our minerals. Likewise they would have no use for our crops which they cannot eat. If they have territorial instincts then they have infinit spaces in which to expand. The thing that we offer, that would interest them, is us ourselves. They would want to see what and how we develop. To introduce us into thier socieity would be to destroy that as we absorb their tech and attitudes. With trillions in population a few more members offers no value. What you need is that which is outside, for only that will provide new ideas and insights.

[Dzepxich]

They don't seem to be interacting very well. I have never seen one. They seem too anthropomorphic to my eye. I prefer the theory that they are time travelers from some genetically engineering future.

If there were aliens out there then have access to infinite resources. Thus they would not need to come and steal our minerals. Likewise they would have no use for our crops which they cannot eat. If they have territorial instincts then they have infinit spaces in which to expand. The thing that we offer, that would interest them, is us ourselves. They would want to see what and how we develop. To introduce us into thier socieity would be to destroy that as we absorb their tech and attitudes. With trillions in population a few more members offers no value. What you need is that which is outside, for only that will provide new ideas and insights.

The anthropomorphic thing is what makes me think that they have "designed" bodies (if they exist, I've never seen one either). I have seen a U.F.O. though, a couple of times (I still don't know what it was).

"They" might be time travelers, though I doubt "time travel" in the sci-fi sense is possible.

I think it most likely that any "alien" that could get to our planet would be a master of nanotechnology & have an unageing, perpetually healthy biomechanoid body, perhaps with the ability to change shape at will.

[Antisocialite]

Science and technology give us new tools but we also have to find how to use them and there is not a universal method to develop ethics yet. Meeting a new race would lead to many question... Would we recognize them as a living species? If so, would we grant them a cathegory similar to humanity or would we consider them as american natives, black people etc. have been treated in the past?

I used to talk about this with my father. I think aliens would endure mistreatment as well.

[Blacklustre King]

Where did you come from, where did you go, where did you come from cotton eye Joe?