PDA

View Full Version : Game of Thrones MBTI types


Malkavia
07-04-2011, 04:31 PM
I love the Game of Thrones series. I just finished reading the book series twice today so its been on my mind lately.

Anyone interested in typing them?

Spoiler alert- Because there has been only one season of Game of Thrones on HBO (which covers the first book) anything passed that will be in spoiler tags. Anything not in spoiler tags is assuming you have read or watch the first book/season. DO NOT read the spoiler tags if you have not gotten farther in. The twist and turns of this series are too wonderful to be ruined, I promise the wait is worth it.

The Starks:
Eddard Stark - ISTJ - Dull, dutiful, loyal and honorable till death (literally). He is the stereotypical good soldier in the series. He is loyal to his king, faithful to his wife, and serves the realm. Even when he was unfaithful once and created a bastard child he brought him home to raise him and stands as a testament to his shame. Most unfortunately he is not good at seeing the bigger picture and gets his head chopped off.
There is speculation he did not even father Jon Snow. That actually it was Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. If this is true he was never unfaithful to his wife.

Catlyn Stark - ESFJ - Dutiful, loving (and boring) mother. Everything she does is for the honor of her house or her children.

Robb Stark - Dont know. I dont think there is enough information.

Jon Snow - Don't know either.

Sansa Stark - ESFJ - She is naive and believes a prince will come and take her away. She is a younger, more inexperienced version of her mother.

Arya Stark - ENFP - Yes I'm probably pulling one of those I-like-the-character-so-I-make-her-my-MBTI-type things, but there are a lot of things about Arya I understand. She breaks societal rules outright, does what seems right to her, and is hard-headed and does what is true to her. She is constantly exploring on her own and discovering things. I did this ALL the time as a child. She learns things quickly and is very witty.
She has an identity crisis after the first few books. She doesn't know who she is anymore due to being gone from her family for so long. This seems very Fi to me. She tries to find who she is in the 4th book.

The rest of the children are too young to be typed. Nor are they discussed a lot in the books. Bran has in own chapter but he is still a child.

The Lannisters
Twin Lannister - INTJ - He is not in the first book much but he is definitely XNTJ. The greatest war general of the time in the books. He is cold, intelligent, and plans things far in advanced. He never smiles and rules with an iron fist. No one is able to stop him and he has an incredible commanding presence. He has the famous INTJ stare in the books.
It is said he only smiled twice - when he married his wife and when his first son was born. His famous INTJ stare is hilarious. He even makes the highest lords shut the hell up when he looks at them.

Tyrion Lannister - ENTP - Witty, fun, ridiculous, and intelligent. Tyrion reminds me a lot of ENTPs on this forum. He takes some pretty big risks as well and opens his mouth way too much.

Jamie Lannister - ESTP - He loves the battlefield and loves the glory.

Cersei Lannister - ESFP - The conniving, evil bitch. She believes she is quite the shit. She loves her beauty, her popularity, and being queen. Very emotional, quick to anger and quick to lust.
It all comes crashing down though. It is obvious she has paranoia or narcissistic personality disorder later in the books. She is not able to run a kingdom. She is incredibly short sighted and VERY emotional. oh and shes a whore and uses sex to get what she wants. She thinks she is her father but ironically is just the opposite.

The Baratheons -
Robert Baratheon - ESXP - He loves his whores, he loves his alcohol, and he loves his battles. Even he admits hes a terrible king. He runs the kingdom into debt and hates the actual "king" part of his job. He would much rather fight and fuck, which he says multiple times.

Renly Baratheon - Maybe... ENFJ? Meh, dont really know much about him, except hes a cutie. He loves his colors and his men. In the first season though you do see he has a good heart and I think he would make a good king.
He dies though. Whomp whomp!

Stannis Baratheon - ISTJ - "Stannis has the personality of a lobster" - Renly. Stannis is the most negative stereotype of an ISTJ you can have. He doesnt even enjoy sex with his wife. He is cold, very honorable, and harsh with punishment.

Others -

Petyr Baelish (little finger) - ENTJ - I think Littlefinger is an ENTJ. He has plans no one seems coming and he is able to see farther ahead than anyone else. He is very good with people and very charming. But it is all a show. He is actually cold, ruthless, and intelligent.
By the end of the fourth book he is about to have 1/3 of the kingdom in his palm without anyone even knowing it. He is very sly.

Daenarys Targaryan - ENFJ The dragon reborn, the great prophetic child. She loves her people. Almost too much.
She pretty much creates a cult. She is known to fall into her emotions too much though which causes trouble.

Feel free to add more or debate! And please use spoiler tags if you need to for our people who still have not read the series so far.

Weltschmerzer
07-04-2011, 08:01 PM
The Lannisters
Twin Lannister - INTJ - He is not in the first book much but he is definitely XNTJ. The greatest war general of the time in the books. He is cold, intelligent, and plans things far in advanced. He never smiles and rules with an iron fist. No one is able to stop him and he has an incredible commanding presence. He has the famous INTJ stare in the books.
It is said he only smiled twice - when he married his wife and when his first son was born. His famous INTJ stare is hilarious. He even makes the highest lords shut the hell up when he looks at them.

Tyrion Lannister - ENTP - Witty, fun, ridiculous, and intelligent. Tyrion reminds me a lot of ENTPs on this forum. He takes some pretty big risks as well and opens his mouth way too much.

Others -

Petyr Baelish (little finger) - ENTJ - I think Littlefinger is an ENTJ. He has plans no one seems coming and he is able to see farther ahead than anyone else. He is very good with people and very charming. But it is all a show. He is actually cold, ruthless, and intelligent.
By the end of the fourth book he is about to have 1/3 of the kingdom in his palm without anyone even knowing it. He is very sly.

I saw Tywin as an ENTJ, Tyrion as an INTJ, and Littlefinger as an INTJ. I could see Tywin going either way. Tyrion's sense of humor reminds me much more of an INTJ's than an ENTP's. What makes you say that Littlefinger is an E?

Malkavia
07-04-2011, 08:08 PM
I saw Tywin as an ENTJ, Tyrion as an INTJ, and Littlefinger as an INTJ. I could see Tywin going either way. Tyrion's sense of humor reminds me much more of an INTJ's than an ENTP's. What makes you say that Littlefinger is an E?

Tywin - I put INTJ because he doesnt seem to enjoy people that much. He is very hard, cold, and unforgiving. I always saw ENTJs as people-oriented.

Tyrion - His humor is sarcastic, yes, but he cant keep his mouth shut. Even when he talks to his dad he cant help but say something. I think that points more towards an E. He also takes a lot more risks in the books (such as hoping Bronn will help save his life) and some are just for the fun of it. It reads ENTP to me.

I assume Littlefinger is an because of how charming he is. He seems to have a natural ability to charm people and bring them to his side. For most INTJs that charm is usually learned.

BellaBianca
07-05-2011, 01:25 AM
I agree that Tyrion resembles more of an ENTP - ish character.
He is social, inventive, talkative, sarcastic when he could have died from it, quick thinker with impulsive solutions to immediate problems, mentally agile.
Likes parties for the sake of the parties, likes the prostitutes for themselves and their services -I think an INTJ of this story would have made more extended use of them, like Littlefinger, or not bothered that much with them at all.

Still, Littlefinger does have more people skill than the archetypical portrait of an INTJ, and it's generally considered more of an E thing to be able to use the people picture this well.

I imagine several of the characters who volunteer to take the black are INTJs.
Maybe that old Targaryen at the Wall is INTJ?

---------- Post added 07-05-2011 at 08:40 AM ----------

Also - I think Arya looks more ISTP, with a strong need to exercise Se in ways that clashes with social conformity. Besides, ISTPs can have problems with settled expectations to them, because they have to evaluate it with their Ti, and if it doesn't make sense that way, then it doesn't count, no matter what the others claim.

ACe Bishop
07-05-2011, 07:05 AM
Me thinks people are confusing what an Introvert truely is... Being an Introvert is not about being a hermet and not talking to anyone... It's more about the spot light... those who want it and enjoy it are E while those who care not for it are I.

Little Finger is an I not an E. His use of spys to gather information, how he usually talks to people one on one, trying to pull the strings from a distance rather than upfront. Plus he never tells people his true motives. His love for Catlyn and how he is seemingly scheming just to ruin the Stark's is signature INTJ. Meanwhile I think Tywin is ENTJ he makes himself the center of attention unlike Tyrion and Littlefinger.

Malkavia
07-05-2011, 07:12 AM
Me thinks people are confusing what an Introvert truely is... Being an Introvert is not about being a hermet and not talking to anyone... It's more about the spot light... those who want it and enjoy it are E while those who care not for it are I.

Little Finger is an I not an E. His use of spys to gather information, how he usually talks to people one on one, trying to pull the strings from a distance rather than upfront. Plus he never tells people his true motives. His love for Catlyn and how he is seemingly scheming just to ruin the Stark's is signature INTJ. Meanwhile I think Tywin is ENTJ he makes himself the center of attention unlike Tyrion and Littlefinger.

Being an "I" means you lose energy from being around people, being an "E" means you gain energy from being around people.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Littlefinger is people oriented.

Also, Tyrion is ALWAYS the center of attention.

ACe Bishop
07-05-2011, 08:00 AM
But Littlefinger interaction is with small groups of people. Being introverted you can hang out in large groups and still be yourself (or put on a front and be uber charismatic with large groups) but it's draining and at the end of the day you still prefer to be alone or in smaller groups. You throw lavish parties, talk to everyone, then retreat to your study with a few people or alone. Why because the party has ulterior motives i.e. keeping up an appearance while working the in the shadows. But it is hard to judge people in books and movies/tv shows where people are always scheming, because you start to wonder whose the real person the public persona or the private one.

As for Tyrion, he is also always drinking which makes it that much harder, can you say for certain he isn't drinking to excess in public because he hates the large crowds? No. We can neither confirm nor deny any reason why he drinks. And when you are drunk you are usually more social no matter how introverted or extroverted you are.

Indubitably
07-05-2011, 10:25 AM
There is very little doubt in my mind that little finger is an INTJ, I suppose you could make an argument for him being an INFJ, but I get more of the feeling that he manipulates people through events rather than events through people. Either way he clearly has a strong mind for strategic event planning, a well developed sense of personal "style", and keeps mostly to himself, which seems to indicate a preference for Ni and Fi, even if it doesn't always clearly distinguish Te from Fe in such a socially charged environment.

Eddard Stark is most certainly an Fi dominant, and more likely than not an ISFP, as is Snow who despite being a bastard probably takes after Eddard more than any of his other sons. With an ISTJ its not a question of what is "right", its a question of upholding or enforcing a standard; or rather, what is "right" for an ISTJ is to uphold a standard. An ISTJ would not struggle with what is right and wrong the way Eddard does (or at least not over the same things things that Eddard Stark does), because for an ISTJ there would be no ambiguity as to what the right thing to do was. An ISTJ's duty is to his station, and to the laws that govern and define the conduct of an individual that holds such a station, not to the laws that govern or define a personal code of conduct.

Cersi Lannister is almost certainly an iNtuitive, and I would say she is most likely an ENFJ. I see a lot of my ENFJ brother in her, she is fiercely loyal to her family, and innately talented at manipulating people, but also very creative and big-picture oriented. If you want an example of an ESFP look at King Robert. ESFPs have neither the talent nor the patience for treachery; they will dawn the trapping of authority for the greater good if they must, but they would much rather be in the thick of it, experiencing life first hand, not sitting around plotting and scheming all day or dictating policy to a room full of stuffy bureaucrats.

Arya is young, and it is hard to get a sense of exactly how her personality will solidify, but she seems quite clearly to have a strong preference for Se and some sort of introverted judging function, which is most likely Ti from what we've seen thus far. Either way she is certainly not a "people person", and since she appears to already be about 10 or 11 years old, it seems unlikely that she ever will be, so I am going to go with ISTP.

Malkavia
07-05-2011, 10:38 AM
Any opinion on Tyrion?

Indubitably
07-05-2011, 10:53 AM
Any opinion on Tyrion?

My guess for Tyrion is pretty well in line with what you guessed, he seems to be a misanthropic ENTP. At first I thought he might just be a very very social INTJ who was caught up in self destructive indulgence of Se, but Fi-Se hedonism in an INTJ, in this much excess, would have an almost suicidally fatalistic bent to it; he wouldn't just be a snarky man-whore, he'd be rushing headlong into battles he had almost no hope of winning intentionally rather than doing it begrudgingly to satisfy his father.

Everything else fits ENTP though; his lack of planning, his dedication to learning for the sake of learning, his sentimental side, the hedonism and willful disobedience of authority figures.. ultimately you just plain have to work far less in order to explain why ENTP fits than any other type.

BostonIan
07-05-2011, 11:23 AM
Not in the mood to go person-by-person, but, watching the series, I associated most with the Lannisters. Starks were the respectable SJ's, other families I didn't particularly care about.

Seablue
07-05-2011, 11:30 AM
I actually don't think it's possible to type characters from books unless maybe the author had some notion of the MBTI, but, oh well, it might be fun.

Sansa Stark - ESFJ - She is naive and believes a prince will come and take her away. She is a younger, more inexperienced version of her mother.

I disagree with her being the same type as her mother. Even when she was young, Catelyn was all about the family and the duty. Sansa is a dreamer, and she's quite egoistic, but at the same time, she truly has a good heart. She loves nothing more than stories about knights and ladies, and even the gruesome things she witnesses can't make her forget her ideals about what True Knights should be like.

When she marries Tyrion and humiliate him by refusing to bend, she regrets it later, realizing that he's been good to her and that it was childish of her to hurt him because she wouldn't compromise her ideals.

So I would see her more as a NF type. Or maybe ISFJ.

Arya Stark - ENFP - Yes I'm probably pulling one of those I-like-the-character-so-I-make-her-my-MBTI-type things

Well I like her too and she's not ENFP ! ;D

At least I think she's a T, and probably an I too. The rest, I don't know.

It all comes crashing down though. It is obvious she has paranoia or narcissistic personality disorder later in the books. She is not able to run a kingdom. She is incredibly short sighted and VERY emotional. oh and shes a whore and uses sex to get what she wants. She thinks she is her father but ironically is just the opposite.

I. Hate. Her. So. Much.

Yes, I know, this was in no way useful, but I had to say it.

Stannis Baratheon - ISTJ - "Stannis has the personality of a lobster" - Renly. Stannis is the most negative stereotype of an ISTJ you can have. He doesnt even enjoy sex with his wife. He is cold, very honorable, and harsh with punishment.

Oh yeah, probably ISTJ.

---------- Post added 07-05-2011 at 08:31 PM ----------

Tywin INTJ, Tyrion ENTP and Littlefinger ENTJ seem to fit.

Malkavia
07-05-2011, 11:34 AM
Cersi Lannister is almost certainly an iNtuitive, and I would say she is most likely an ENFJ. I see a lot of my ENFJ brother in her, she is fiercely loyal to her family, and innately talented at manipulating people, but also very creative and big-picture oriented. If you want an example of an ESFP look at King Robert. ESFPs have neither the talent nor the patience for treachery; they will dawn the trapping of authority for the greater good if they must, but they would much rather be in the thick of it, experiencing life first hand, not sitting around plotting and scheming all day or dictating policy to a room full of stuffy bureaucrats.


It is so hard for me to see her as ENFJ. Shes just so....horrible.

Ever when she has her own chapter shes horrible. Yes she is loyal to her family but her hatred towards EVERYONE else doesnt ring ENFJ to me. Of course like I said, I think she truly has some type of psychological disorder like paranoia towards the end.

---------- Post added 07-05-2011 at 01:35 PM ----------



Tywin INTJ, Tyrion ENTP and Littlefinger ENTJ seem to fit.

Yay someone agrees!

I know Arya is not ENFP....I just want her to be. *sniffle*

At least Im able to admit it right?

Seablue
07-05-2011, 11:36 AM
Cersi Lannister is almost certainly an iNtuitive, and I would say she is most likely an ENFJ. I see a lot of my ENFJ brother in her, she is fiercely loyal to her family, and innately talented at manipulating people, but also very creative and big-picture oriented.

I don't think she's that way in the books. They changed her quite a bit in the show, made her a lot more likable (though still a bitch). She only succeeds in manipulating very naive people, she can't compete with Tywin, Tyrion, Littlefinger, etc. And she has no sense of the "big picture", doesn't care about her family, the only thing that matters to her is her personal power. But as the OP said, she's probably a bit crazy, and it's hard to type crazy people. In the 4th books, you see through her eyes for quite a lot of chapters, and I had a hard time reading them >_>

Edit : I really don't think she "loyal to her family". She cares about the power that comes with it, that's all. Contrary to her father, she doesn't care that the name of the family will live on after her. She does love her children, that much is true, but not anyone else.

Even Jaime, she loves him as long as he is her faithful shadow, thinks like her and protects her, but as soon as he starts changing she rejects him without a second thought. She liked him as a mirror, that's all.

And, for the people who have read the last pages of the fourth book :

I just can't wait for her to realize that it's Jaime and not Tyrion who will lead her to her death.

But she does have some amount of courage and determination, at least.

Either way she is certainly not a "people person", and since she appears to already be about 10 or 11 years old, it seems unlikely that she ever will be, so I am going to go with ISTP.

I don't know about ISTP, but it's possible. At least I agree that she's not an E.

---------- Post added 07-05-2011 at 08:41 PM ----------

I know Arya is not ENFP....I just want her to be. *sniffle*

At least Im able to admit it right?

Yep, that's good ;)

anticlimatic
04-18-2012, 01:41 PM
Is it just me, or does Asha Greyjoy have the INTJ death stare (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) locked down?

MrFlaneur
04-18-2012, 02:40 PM
There's a lot of buzz about this series. Is it worth reading the books?

Malkavia
04-18-2012, 02:44 PM
There's a lot of buzz about this series. Is it worth reading the books?

The books are much better than show (of course) and I've never heard of anyone not liking the books once they started. There are a TON of characters so it can take a few chapters but it gets easier.

Kisai
04-18-2012, 02:56 PM
I'm rooting for ISFJ for Catelyn. She's devoid of a social network and mostly she wishes to just go home and be a mom again. She misses her home from Tully (Si), is duty oriented, and meddlesome.

ESFJ for Cersei. Unfortunately, she's a very immature one and manipulates people in a ham-fisted way. She demands to be a social paragon it seems, for its own sake.

Renly has an easygoing EXXP nature. I want to say ENFP.

Littlefinger might be an ENTJ. Tyrion is an ENTP. Tywin is the only INTJ that I know of in the book.

Zodd
04-18-2012, 03:33 PM
Almost no replies about the show itself but this is fun?

---------- Post added 04-19-2012 at 12:33 AM ----------

I've never understood the fun in typing characters from shows, or people IRL for that matter.

---------- Post added 04-19-2012 at 12:34 AM ----------

Oh, this thread is from last year.

Silverity
04-18-2012, 07:33 PM
Any guesses for Varys? :D

Seablue
04-20-2012, 05:56 AM
Any guesses for Varys? :D

INFJ? :D

Moxiie
04-20-2012, 09:53 AM
I'm rooting for ISFJ for Catelyn. She's devoid of a social network and mostly she wishes to just go home and be a mom again. She misses her home from Tully (Si), is duty oriented, and meddlesome.

ESFJ for Cersei. Unfortunately, she's a very immature one and manipulates people in a ham-fisted way. She demands to be a social paragon it seems, for its own sake.

Renly has an easygoing EXXP nature. I want to say ENFP.

Littlefinger might be an ENTJ. Tyrion is an ENTP. Tywin is the only INTJ that I know of in the book.


I agree with all of the above, the books delve much deeper into character development - Renly as an ENFP, interesting and I find I agree with it.

Littlefinger is for sure an E personality - his social grace and ability to charm are definitely E, also he runs a brothel and manipulates people for his own end. While INTJ's can do that, I've never heard of one actually doing it - you guys are too independent and cannot really be bothered with manipulating people, requires way too much human interaction and y'all are too busy internally planning world domination. ENTJ's do the same thing, but use other people to accomplish their ends, therefore Littlefinger is def and ENTJ.

I wanted Arya to be an ENFP too. lol.

Polymath20
04-23-2012, 12:20 PM
Robb Stark - Stoic for a kid, but friendly and sociable. ESTP is my guess. Has trouble with the bigger picture, but that's why he's got a J mom to help him out. Though he's not quite so spunky and dynamic, so he may yet grow into a good ESTJ.

Jon Snow - INFJ. He craves purpose and meaning (J) and seeks to valid himself through titles and achievement (N). Sticks up for Samwell, something he thinks is "right" - (F). Can't tell if he's E/I - though reading the books, he seems to think a lot and rationalize with internal monologue, so I would go with (I)

Avalonlord
01-16-2013, 04:14 AM
George Martin?
Cersei Lannister INTJ
Robb Stark INTJ
Joffrey INTJ
Sansa ISFJ
Tyrian ENTP
Eddark ISTJ
Stannis ISTJ
ROBERT ESTP
Catelyn ESFJ
Renly ENFJ
Jamie ENTJ
Tywin INTJ

9272
01-16-2013, 10:32 AM
Ned-ISTJ.....bad stereotype
Tywin-ENTJ He's lead by his Te but Fi makes an appearance when he finally gives Tyrion a little bit of respect "because you are my son". People really ought to be more concerned with how functions interact rather than "Whoa he's not a people person"

Jon-Some kind of dominant feeler i should say....

Sansa-ISFP for sure

Arya- I can agree that she's ENFP

Cersei- Bad ESFJ. Has to be a dominant judgement function because she "takes things so seriously in comparison to jamie and tyrion

Robb stark-ESTJ

Varys is INFJ for sure

Tyrion-Some people may cry, but INTJ. He can either pass for ENTP or ESFP in the first book because of low self-esteem and he is clearly operating by shadow functions. He drinks constantly but is also constantly reading.

When acting out unhealthily he is a party animal who thrives on sensation, when acting out more healthily he is a strategic leader with plans and contingencies(similar to type 5 enneagram, where apparently alot of INTJ's test)

Introverted feeling makes an appearance when he says "I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples and bastards and broken things" and i can quote function definitions if need be.I'd like to see someone try and actually identify the functions of ENTP, the only argument i can conceive is that he can seem like a troll poking sensitive spots. However the humor is based on sarcasm and not ENTP's generation of shock due to using Fe "negatively". ESFJ's and ESTJ's rely on Ne as their tertiary function, and even they do this in real life. Accepts the role of leadership as a last resort but is a very able leader and is quite similar to Tywin more than he would like to admit when functioning healthily, when operating by shadow functions he is like a bad ESFP.

Lol someone resurrected this:S

Daenarys-INFP

Littlefinger-INTJ Again....function interaction.

Jamie-ESTP for sure

Joffrey- So unhealthy...this is really complex.The function would make more sense if it were some kind of extroverted judging.I'm going to go with a really bad ENFJ. He clearly judges before he perceives, he's not goal oriented but he constantly needs to be appreciated. He just wants to hurt people but he still uses open lies to pretend it's justified,feel free to challenge.

Ender
01-16-2013, 01:22 PM
It's been too long since I read the books, but going by the TV series and what I remember of him, I think Jon Snow is INFJ. The way he stands up for the one guy. Emerges as some kind of leader if I recall, but not directly (more through influence). Wants desperately to fight for a cause.

NotYourParadigm
05-11-2014, 08:31 AM
Is it just me, or does Asha Greyjoy have the INTJ death stare (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) locked down?

I know this thread died ages ago, but I can't let this bit go. Absolutely! Asha Greyjoy is the only female INTJ I see in the series (they seem to be damn near impossible to find in fiction), and I'm happy to find that there's someone else who sees it.
She's the only Greyjoy with a decent brain in her head, and really is an under-appreciated character.

[AFfC / ADwD Spoilers]
She's the only one of the ironborn who seems to realize that Euron is chasing feebly after dragons that I really cannot see him winning. Victarion's tough as nails, but unfortunately about as smart as one too. I can see the Nuncles causing a real nice shitstorm in Daenerys' plotline but not succeeding in their overall purposes, la Quentyn Martell.

Despite being born and raised entirely as an ironborn, Asha's not a grunting fool like most of them. She knows her father was a greedy idiot, and that they haven't a dream of holding the North, let alone all of Westeros. She's got Ni and Te as sharp as her battle-axe and dirk, and she knows how to use them.

I expect (and avidly hope) that Asha is going to end up ruling the Iron Islands through Theon's claim, since it wasn't properly considered in the Kingsmoot. She can use her brother as political figurehead (the boy is about fit to lead as Hodor is to be king) in the same way she offered to 'advise' Victarion (that actually wouldn't have been a bad scenario either, since Victarion would be an easy fool to manipulate). She'd do a damned good job of ruling, and she seems to be only hope the Greyjoys have if they don't want to be destroyed entirely.

[TWoW Preview Spoilers]
Of course, that all is going to rather difficult if Theon gets beheaded/roasted by Stannis, as we're being lead to anticipate. Luckily, I don't think GRRM is done with the poor kid just yet.

artoftalent07
09-19-2014, 10:56 AM
''Either way she is certainly not a "people person"''

Not a people person? Arya is the most people person character in the series. She can make friends with practically anyone, from old people to young ones. It is why she is seen as such an outsider among noble-borns, because she doesn't care from where someone comes from or what someone does but only cares about kind of person the individual is. It is one of her most prominent characteristics. All five books imply heavily her want of a friend, a 'pack', somewhere or someone to belong too. It's her complete plot line.

Polymath20
09-19-2014, 11:01 AM
I know this thread died ages ago, but I can't let this bit go. Absolutely! Asha Greyjoy is the only female INTJ I see in the series (they seem to be damn near impossible to find in fiction), and I'm happy to find that there's someone else who sees it.
She's the only Greyjoy with a decent brain in her head, and really is an under-appreciated character.

[AFfC / ADwD Spoilers]
She's the only one of the ironborn who seems to realize that Euron is chasing feebly after dragons that I really cannot see him winning. Victarion's tough as nails, but unfortunately about as smart as one too. I can see the Nuncles causing a real nice shitstorm in Daenerys' plotline but not succeeding in their overall purposes, la Quentyn Martell.

Despite being born and raised entirely as an ironborn, Asha's not a grunting fool like most of them. She knows her father was a greedy idiot, and that they haven't a dream of holding the North, let alone all of Westeros. She's got Ni and Te as sharp as her battle-axe and dirk, and she knows how to use them.

I expect (and avidly hope) that Asha is going to end up ruling the Iron Islands through Theon's claim, since it wasn't properly considered in the Kingsmoot. She can use her brother as political figurehead (the boy is about fit to lead as Hodor is to be king) in the same way she offered to 'advise' Victarion (that actually wouldn't have been a bad scenario either, since Victarion would be an easy fool to manipulate). She'd do a damned good job of ruling, and she seems to be only hope the Greyjoys have if they don't want to be destroyed entirely.

[TWoW Preview Spoilers]
Of course, that all is going to rather difficult if Theon gets beheaded/roasted by Stannis, as we're being lead to anticipate. Luckily, I don't think GRRM is done with the poor kid just yet.

Sorry but in no way is Asha an INTJ. She commands respect of her men by being boisterous and expressive. She's certainly one of the smartest Ironborn but I'd peg her as an ESTJ before anything else. She looks at things very objectively and plainly. Despite her cunning she is no intuition user. Her views are very mundane.

HankMorgan
09-19-2014, 11:27 AM
Not a people person? Arya is the most people person character in the series. She can make friends with practically anyone, from old people to young ones.She doesn't want to make friends. She wants to kill people.

All five books imply heavily her want of a friend, a 'pack', somewhere or someone to belong too.She's a "lone wolf" type.

Sorry but in no way is Asha an INTJ. She commands respect of her men by being boisterous and expressive. She's certainly one of the smartest Ironborn but I'd peg her as an ESTJ before anything else. She looks at things very objectively and plainly. Despite her cunning she is no intuition user. Her views are very mundane.I'm not so sure. I think she commands respect because she's a good leader. Theon is "boisterous and expressive," but the men don't respect him because he's a bad leader (or at least hasn't accomplished anything). I also thought it was fairly intuitive how she tested Theon by pretending to not know who he is.

godwantsplastic
09-19-2014, 11:28 AM
Sorry but in no way is Asha an INTJ. She commands respect of her men by being boisterous and expressive. She's certainly one of the smartest Ironborn but I'd peg her as an ESTJ before anything else. She looks at things very objectively and plainly. Despite her cunning she is no intuition user. Her views are very mundane.
Right, she also allowed her own brother to molest her so she could guilt him later on. Likely an istj but a little more overtly aggressive than most.

Polymath20
09-19-2014, 11:30 AM
I'm not so sure. I think she commands respect because she's a good leader. Theon is "boisterous and expressive," but the men don't respect him because he's a bad leader (or at least hasn't accomplished anything). I also thought it was fairly intuitive how she tested Theon by pretending to not know who he is.

INTJ's don't make good leaders, they make good puppetmasters.

Look at how Tywin manipulated a bunch of people into assassinating his chief enemy, Rob Stark. Do you think Asha thinks like that? Not a chance in hell.

Asha is a strong salt-of-the-earth kinda gal. ESTJ all day long. Hell, she even complains about not being a man in the books.

HankMorgan
09-19-2014, 11:49 AM
INTJ's don't make good leaders, they make good puppetmasters.They're bad leaders in general, but it works for the Ironborn. They're a gritty, Te-oriented raiding society that respects a clever and tough military leader like Asha.

Asha is a strong salt-of-the-earth kinda gal. ESTJ all day long. Hell, she even complains about not being a man in the books.A lot of INTJ women here write that they feel masculine. This sounds more like a description of TJ women in general.

Polymath20
09-19-2014, 11:58 AM
They're bad leaders in general, but it works for the Ironborn. They're a gritty, Te-oriented raiding society that respects a clever and tough military leader like Asha.

Yes, and most INTJ are not physically confrontational.

A lot of INTJ women here write that they feel masculine. This sounds more like a description of TJ women in general.

Disagree.

Carnal
09-19-2014, 12:01 PM
She doesn't guard herself in the traditional sense (intellectually/emotionally), if anything she's the epitome of chip on her shoulder. She will also use her sexuality to manipulate people, and does it with a goal in mind. I get ESTJ vibes too, though for sure a XXTJ She has a fear of being trapped too.

Go back to the moat scene in the books, she is very extroverted there.

Intrinsik
09-19-2014, 12:02 PM
She doesn't guard herself in the traditional sense (intellectually/emotionally), if anything she's the epitome of chip on her shoulder. She will also use her sexuality to manipulate people, and does it with a goal in mind. I get ESTJ vibes too. She has a fear of being trapped too.

Which character is this?

Polymath20
09-19-2014, 12:07 PM
She doesn't guard herself in the traditional sense (intellectually/emotionally), if anything she's the epitome of chip on her shoulder. She will also use her sexuality to manipulate people, and does it with a goal in mind. I get ESTJ vibes too, though for sure a XXTJ She has a fear of being trapped too.

Go back to the moat scene in the books, she is very extroverted there.

That fear of being trapped is Fi, which is part and parcel for TJ's.

---------- Post added 09-19-2014 at 03:08 PM ----------

Which character is this?

Asha Greyjoy.

Intrinsik
09-19-2014, 12:10 PM
That fear of being trapped is Fi, which is part and parcel for TJ's.

---------- Post added 09-19-2014 at 03:08 PM ----------



Asha Greyjoy.

Oh yeah ESTJ. Kind of a Greyjoy archetype. That is Theon's sister right? Maybe the fear of being trapped means she is EXTJ but she seems more of a sensor type, no Tyrion level schemes coming from her head.

Polymath20
09-19-2014, 12:13 PM
Oh yeah ESTJ. Kind of a Greyjoy archetype. That is Theon's sister right? Maybe the fear of being trapped means she is EXTJ but she seems more of a sensor type, no Tyrion level schemes coming from her head.

She did have one clever scheme in the books:

At the Kingsmoot she didn't offer gifts, but rather worthless things to illustrate what the Ironborn would get if they voted for someone else. That was the most un-sensor-esque thing she did in the books, though.

HankMorgan
09-19-2014, 12:23 PM
Yes, and most INTJ are not physically confrontational.The Ironborn live on crappy land that doesn't have agriculture or resources. Their whole way of life is based on killing people and taking their stuff.

Disagree.That's the impression I have from the G&A and R&D subforums, anyways. INTJ women dislike cultural norms that expect women to be emotional, feminine, and submissive. Many of them have difficulty relating to "normal," more stereotypical women.

---------- Post added 09-19-2014 at 03:25 PM ----------

Go back to the moat scene in the books, she is very extroverted there. (I'm going off of the show, by the way. I haven't read any of the books.)

Intrinsik
09-19-2014, 12:26 PM
She did have one clever scheme in the books:

At the Kingsmoot she didn't offer gifts, but rather worthless things to illustrate what the Ironborn would get if they voted for someone else. That was the most un-sensor-esque thing she did in the books, though.

Meh that is not bad but I still say at best she is EXTJ

Polymath20
09-19-2014, 12:30 PM
The Ironborn live on crappy land that doesn't have agriculture or resources. Their whole way of life is based on killing people and taking their stuff.

Yes, and INTJ would get murdered on that island for being too quirky or different.

That's the impression I have from the G&A and R&D subforums, anyways. INTJ women dislike cultural norms that expect women to be emotional, feminine, and submissive. Many of them have difficulty relating to "normal," more stereotypical women.

Gender non-conformity is not the same as wishing to be a man.

HankMorgan
09-19-2014, 01:05 PM
Yes, and INTJ would get murdered on that island for being too quirky or different.She's good at raiding and sailing, and the Ironborn like people who are good at raiding and sailing. All they care about is competence, which is a strong area for INTJs. INTJs' problems with social skills and quirkiness don't matter to the Ironborn. Again, look at Theon as a comparison. ESTPs are charismatic and likable. But it doesn't matter to the Ironborn, because they don't think he's a competent leader.

Gender non-conformity is not the same as wishing to be a man.No, but Western society's more progressive than Westeros. It's more acceptable in real life for women to have masculine traits. Asha probably grew up being jealous of the recognition her brothers got.

Polymath20
09-19-2014, 01:40 PM
She's good at raiding and sailing, and the Ironborn like people who are good at raiding and sailing. All they care about is competence, which is a strong area for INTJs. INTJs' problems with social skills and quirkiness don't matter to the Ironborn. Again, look at Theon as a comparison. ESTPs are charismatic and likable. But it doesn't matter to the Ironborn, because they don't think he's a competent leader.

No, but Western society's more progressive than Westeros. It's more acceptable in real life for women to have masculine traits. Asha probably grew up being jealous of the recognition her brothers got.

Intjs are no more or less competent than any other type.

The ironborn don't like theon because he spent ten years away from their culture and they rightly see him as weak. It has nothing to do with competence. Asha is respected because she's strong.

HankMorgan
09-19-2014, 02:09 PM
Intjs are no more or less competent than any other type.They'd be relatively competent in this context. Ni-Te excels at understanding systems (applicable to sea navigation) and at strategy (applicable to raiding). INTJs are generally good at problem-solving as long as people's feelings aren't involved.

The ironborn don't like theon because he spent ten years away from their culture and they rightly see him as weak. It has nothing to do with competence. Asha is respected because she's strong.I don't think he's weak. He seems like a pretty good fighter, and he was raised by the Starks, who are a pretty tough family. I think they don't like him because he tries to emotionally manipulate them. First he tries to intimidate them, and then he tries to inspire them. But that's not how Ironborn culture is. They don't care about feelings, history, honor, morality, traditions, or any of that stuff. They just want to win, and they see someone like Asha as a person who will help them win.

godwantsplastic
09-19-2014, 02:32 PM
She's seen as strong because she's closed off, no outward expression, introversion... Theon is considered weak for being outwardly expressive, extraverted...
Ironborn obviously value internalization of emotions.

---------- Post added 09-19-2014 at 05:40 PM ----------

Estjs tend to overshare in order to get others to open up so they can gather intel. Asha and her dad are both cunning and they hit with guilt and then silence to get theon talkng and on the defensive. That is classic istj.

chicks
07-26-2015, 12:41 PM
Me thinks people are confusing what an Introvert truely is... Being an Introvert is not about being a hermet and not talking to anyone... It's more about the spot light... those who want it and enjoy it are E while those who care not for it are I.

Little Finger is an I not an E. His use of spys to gather information, how he usually talks to people one on one, trying to pull the strings from a distance rather than upfront. Plus he never tells people his true motives. His love for Catlyn and how he is seemingly scheming just to ruin the Stark's is signature INTJ. Meanwhile I think Tywin is ENTJ he makes himself the center of attention unlike Tyrion and Littlefinger.

This post is fucking ridiculous. If introverts don't like the spotlight, how do you explain the hundreds of famous Ixxx actors, musicians, politicians, and other prominent figures? Introversion vs. extroversion has more to do with how your interactions with people affect your energy. You are correct in your other post where you describe how introverts need to recharge after prolonged interaction... this is the classic definition of an introvert. However, extroverts even need this from time to time and this is why introversion vs. extroversion is often one of the most difficult of the preferences to typify in a person.

Also how the fuck does Tywin "make himself the center of attention?" He conquers and carries out his will, an extreme example of a domination-bent ENTJ. A more accurate way to rephrase what you said would be that Tywin has built such a reputation for himself as a formidable conqueror that nearly everyone in the Realm knows who he is. He does not seek a spotlight, nor does he ever interact to larger groups of people than, say, Littlefinger who you claim is an INTJ.

Sorry to crack down on your post but it was so glaringly inaccurate that I had to chime in with my two cents. That being said-

Ned Stark - ISTJ. Dutiful to a fault, respects tradition and loyalty at all costs

Catelyn - IxFJ. She seems quite intuitive but could be an ISFJ. She is a protector above all.

Robb - ESTJ. I believe he is ESTJ because he values justice more than mercy, certainly not an F, and is comfortable leading and being around people, which seems more E than I. Almost an ENTJ but not as brash and controlling, with a more moral sense of purpose than xNTJ.

Arya - ISTP. I love Arya. Direct and honest. Not extroverted, not feeling, not particularly intuitive, narrows it down quite a bit right off the bat. She is not an ISTJ so she is probably an ISTP, which fits with her inclination toward Se and Ti.

Sansa - INFJ? Don't really know, don't really care. I don't like Sansa. She is a weak little crybaby (the intj in me coming out) but she is definitely IxFx. Sissy.

Robert Boratheon - ENTJ. Whoa... everyone seems to think he is ESFP, but he doesn't give off the careless "make everybody feel good to improve the vibe of the situation" mojo that ESFP's are known for. He constantly exercises extroverted thinking and judging, clearly extroverted with his garrilousness and being himself without giving a fuck how other people percieve him. Screams of ENTJ, and I also have a very ENTJ friend who is extremely similar to Robert in the show. My friend is always joking and laughing and insulting people in a way that is funny to everybody, but is a more cutting kind of insult than an ESFP might give. PLUS, after an insult, an ESFP would probably try to soften the blow by changing the subject or relating it to something else. Robert insults people to let them know they're fucking stupid, which is the hallmark of an ENTJ.

Cersi - ENFJ. ENFJ are known for being manipulators, in a sense. She is very intuitive and seems to have a slight preference for feeling. She is not introverted as she clearly engages people emotionally at point blank without any reservations. Constantly manipulating people.

Jamie - ESTP. Total ESTP, this isn't even debateable. Showy, direct, in-the-moment, and a renowned athlete. One of the clearest representations of ESTP I've seen in fiction.

Tyrion - ENTP. Clearly a rational puts him at xNTx. He is extroverted with his ceaseless wit, but not an ENTJ because he doesn't seek to control people or situations. He is laid back but very intelligent and interested in knowledge and is also very worldly. ENTP.

Tywin - ENTJ. Holy shit this guy is an ENTJ. Literally bent on world domination, does not give a fuck about the emotions of anyone else because he is right and he knows it, screams of ENTJ. Tywin never, ever, ever backs down. He is constantly driving forward to make his will happen. This is so ENTJ that it's not even funny. I cannot see him as an INTJ because he has too much drive and purpose and will to enforce it, and although he is very clearly intuitive in a strategic sense, he has even more will to make things happen, so much that it has caused his family much pain and suffering, but he doesn't really give a shit. ENTJ's have Fi as their 4th function, and this is obvious in Tywin as he never expresses any feeling whatsoever in the series (INTJ's have Fi as their 3rd function, so might express some emotion, but not Tywin. He wants to control the outcome, always, and that's all he ever wants.)

Little Finger - INTJ. Speaking of INTJ's, little finger probably is one. He acts out of self-interest and is very strategic. He has no loyalty to anyone. We all agree he is xNTJ, but I don't see him as ENTJ because he doesn't engage people head-on the way Tywin and Robert do. Robert insults people to his face, as does Tywin, but Little Finger would have more of a sarcastic, offhand type of insult which would be the more indirect approach that INTJ's are comfortable with.

Vaerys - ISTJ. Values knowledge and tradition in a sense, seems to actually care for the Realm for its own sake. Also alleged to like little boys, and we all know that ISTJ's are commonly kiddy-fiddlers (joke... sort of). Probably ISTJ, not intuitive enough to be INTJ.

John Snow - INFP. Forgot to put him up top, but seems to be an IxFx. He defaults to a sullen, gloomy-ish kind of demeanor which is common with INFP's. It's like he's always in a funk he's trying to pull himself out of, but never can. INFP.

The other characters in the show I either don't care about or don't really know. I don't know of any ENFP's or ESFJ's in my life so I can't compare them to people in the show. The characters above I am fairly sure about though.

anticlimatic
07-26-2015, 12:45 PM
All I know is that it's at least 90% Fi users.

Carnal
07-26-2015, 12:48 PM
This post is fucking ridiculous. If introverts don't like the spotlight, how do you explain the hundreds of famous Ixxx actors, musicians, politicians, and other prominent figures? Introversion vs. extroversion has more to do with how your interactions with people affect your energy. You are correct in your other post where you describe how introverts need to recharge after prolonged interaction... this is the classic definition of an introvert. However, extroverts even need this from time to time and this is why introversion vs. extroversion is often one of the most difficult of the preferences to typify in a person.

Also how the fuck does Tywin "make himself the center of attention?" He conquers and carries out his will, an extreme example of a domination-bent ENTJ. A more accurate way to rephrase what you said would be that Tywin has built such a reputation for himself as a formidable conqueror that nearly everyone in the Realm knows who he is. He does not seek a spotlight, nor does he ever interact to larger groups of people than, say, Littlefinger who you claim is an INTJ.

Sorry to crack down on your post but it was so glaringly inaccurate that I had to chime in with my two cents. That being said-

Ned Stark - ISTJ. Dutiful to a fault, respects tradition and loyalty at all costs

Catelyn - IxFJ. She seems quite intuitive but could be an ISFJ. She is a protector above all.

Robb - ESTJ. I believe he is ESTJ because he values justice more than mercy, certainly not an F, and is comfortable leading and being around people, which seems more E than I. Almost an ENTJ but not as brash and controlling, with a more moral sense of purpose than xNTJ.

Arya - ISTP. I love Arya. Direct and honest. Not extroverted, not feeling, not particularly intuitive, narrows it down quite a bit right off the bat. She is not an ISTJ so she is probably an ISTP, which fits with her inclination toward Se and Ti.

Sansa - INFJ? Don't really know, don't really care. I don't like Sansa. She is a weak little crybaby (the intj in me coming out) but she is definitely IxFx. Sissy.

Robert Boratheon - ENTJ. Whoa... everyone seems to think he is ESFP, but he doesn't give off the careless "make everybody feel good to improve the vibe of the situation" mojo that ESFP's are known for. He constantly exercises extroverted thinking and judging, clearly extroverted with his garrilousness and being himself without giving a fuck how other people percieve him. Screams of ENTJ, and I also have a very ENTJ friend who is extremely similar to Robert in the show. My friend is always joking and laughing and insulting people in a way that is funny to everybody, but is a more cutting kind of insult than an ESFP might give. PLUS, after an insult, an ESFP would probably try to soften the blow by changing the subject or relating it to something else. Robert insults people to let them know they're fucking stupid, which is the hallmark of an ENTJ.

Cersi - ENFJ. ENFJ are known for being manipulators, in a sense. She is very intuitive and seems to have a slight preference for feeling. She is not introverted as she clearly engages people emotionally at point blank without any reservations. Constantly manipulating people.

Jamie - ESTP. Total ESTP, this isn't even debateable. Showy, direct, in-the-moment, and a renowned athlete. One of the clearest representations of ESTP I've seen in fiction.

Tyrion - ENTP. Clearly a rational puts him at xNTx. He is extroverted with his ceaseless wit, but not an ENTJ because he doesn't seek to control people or situations. He is laid back but very intelligent and interested in knowledge and is also very worldly. ENTP.

Tywin - ENTJ. Holy shit this guy is an ENTJ. Literally bent on world domination, does not give a fuck about the emotions of anyone else because he is right and he knows it, screams of ENTJ. Tywin never, ever, ever backs down. He is constantly driving forward to make his will happen. This is so ENTJ that it's not even funny. I cannot see him as an INTJ because he has too much drive and purpose and will to enforce it, and although he is very clearly intuitive in a strategic sense, he has even more will to make things happen, so much that it has caused his family much pain and suffering, but he doesn't really give a shit. ENTJ's have Fi as their 4th function, and this is obvious in Tywin as he never expresses any feeling whatsoever in the series (INTJ's have Fi as their 3rd function, so might express some emotion, but not Tywin. He wants to control the outcome, always, and that's all he ever wants.)

Little Finger - INTJ. Speaking of INTJ's, little finger probably is one. He acts out of self-interest and is very strategic. He has no loyalty to anyone. We all agree he is xNTJ, but I don't see him as ENTJ because he doesn't engage people head-on the way Tywin and Robert do. Robert insults people to his face, as does Tywin, but Little Finger would have more of a sarcastic, offhand type of insult which would be the more indirect approach that INTJ's are comfortable with.

Vaerys - ISTJ. Values knowledge and tradition in a sense, seems to actually care for the Realm for its own sake. Also alleged to like little boys, and we all know that ISTJ's are commonly kiddy-fiddlers (joke... sort of). Probably ISTJ, not intuitive enough to be INTJ.

John Snow - INFP. Forgot to put him up top, but seems to be an IxFx. He defaults to a sullen, gloomy-ish kind of demeanor which is common with INFP's. It's like he's always in a funk he's trying to pull himself out of, but never can. INFP.

The other characters in the show I either don't care about or don't really know. I don't know of any ENFP's or ESFJ's in my life so I can't compare them to people in the show. The characters above I am fairly sure about though.

Petyr is effortlessly social though, so it doesn't matter if he seeks it out or not. ENTx types aren't known for being bubbly. To me he's about as ENTJ as it gets.

chicks
07-26-2015, 12:54 PM
Yes, and INTJ would get murdered on that island for being too quirky or different.



Gender non-conformity is not the same as wishing to be a man.

Enough of your INTJ-bashing. Sure, a lot of INTJ's fit the stereotypes, and I do see that in my fellow INTJ's, but a lot of INTJ's make great leaders and function well in society without being too quirky or different.

However, among a no-bullshit band of cutthroats such as the ironborn, you are probably right. Asha is not an INTJ by any means, she is comfortable being a leader and is well-respected for her grit and her balls, so to speak. She has way bigger balls than her brother, and INTJ's are not known for this. I get a definite ExTJ vibe from her, although I would type her as ENTJ because of her cunning and wit, but she does seem very sensing. I can't type her as ESTJ because I do not know of any ESTJ's I have met and so cannot make side-by-side comparisons. It is clear that she is extroverted, thinking, and probably judging though. Not an INTJ at all.

Distance
07-26-2015, 12:56 PM
Eddard Stark - ISTJ
Catlyn Stark - ISFJ
Jon Snow - ISFP
Sansa Stark - type useless.
Arya Stark - ISTP
Tywin Lannister - ESTJ
Tyrion Lannister - ENTP
Jamie Lannister - ESFP
Cersei Lannister - ES?J
Robert Baratheon - ESTP
Stannis Baratheon - ISTJ
Petyr Baelish (little finger) - ?NTJ
Varys - NFJ

chicks
07-26-2015, 12:58 PM
Petyr is effortlessly social though, so it doesn't matter if he seeks it out or not. ENTx types aren't known for being bubbly. To me he's about as ENTJ as it gets.

Bro, I'm as INTJ as they come and I am social as fuck. I am commonly seen as the 'alpha male' although I don't really believe in that bullshit, I have no trouble in social situations, and people consistently insist that I am an extrovert although I know I am not. INTJ's are extremely adaptable, and I believe that Little Finger has learned the dance of King's Landing, and he is able to manipulate his way into getting what he wants, rather than taking it by force, which is what an ENTJ would do. ENTJ's are very direct, usually aggressive and commonly insult people. Little Finger is not like this at all. When I watch the show, I feel like Little Finger only shows us like 20% of what's going on in his head, and the rest is behind a curtain that he puts up to the world. This gives me a total INTJ vibe and I simply cannot see him as an ENTJ at all. I know several ENTJ's and Little Finger is nothing like them. He's too quiet, reserved, and just plain introverted. Being socially-adept is NOT the same thing as being extroverted.

---------- Post added 07-26-2015 at 01:09 PM ----------

Eddard Stark - ISTJ
Catlyn Stark - ISFJ
Jon Snow - ISFP
Sansa Stark - type useless.
Arya Stark - ISTP
Tywin Lannister - ESTJ
Tyrion Lannister - ENTP
Jamie Lannister - ESFP
Cersei Lannister - ES?J
Robert Baratheon - ESTP
Stannis Baratheon - ISTJ
Petyr Baelish (little finger) - ?NTJ
Varys - NFJ

Haha I'm blowing this forum up right now, but how do you get ESTJ for Tywin? He can arguably see the furthest into the future out of any character (introverted intuition) and carries out his will to a higher degree than any other character (extroverted thinking.) He is known throughout the seven kingdoms for these things.

And holy fuck how do you get anything but ESTP for Jamie? ESFP's are fun-loving and seek to create harmony and good feelings among their peers. They like telling stories and laughing a lot. Jamie likes to show off and enjoys conflict. He has very little feeling (feeling is the 4th function for ESTP's) and I've never seem him display affection for anyone accept his sister, brother, and his sons and daughters. He is unfeeling but not in a cold way, so I can't see him being feeling at all. He is unemotional, cool and reserved always, and does not display strong emotions. I have to disagree with ya.

I also don't think Robert is ESTP although it's possible. He is definitely E and most likey T, but ESTP's typically don't get angry as much as Robert does. He has a hell of a temper, and doesn't really have any sense of showiness or preference for in-the-moment experience which is the hallmark of SP's, except his whoring and alcohol, but I don't think that addictions and vices are good indicators of type.

I do agree with almost all your other ones though. At least we can all agree Ned Stark is an ISTJ :p

yes
07-26-2015, 01:15 PM
Tywin Lannister - ESTJ
Why do you think he's an S? To me he has the trappings of an Ni. He is future oriented, with a focus on a singular, particular goal. Never got the Si vibe from him.

Distance
07-26-2015, 01:16 PM
Why do you think he's an S? To me he has the trappings of an Ni. He is future oriented, with a focus on a singular, particular goal. Never got the Si vibe from him.He's all about duty.

You are not my son. You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty.

Carnal
07-26-2015, 01:40 PM
Bro, I'm as INTJ as they come and I am social as fuck. I am commonly seen as the 'alpha male' although I don't really believe in that bullshit, I have no trouble in social situations, and people consistently insist that I am an extrovert although I know I am not. INTJ's are extremely adaptable, and I believe that Little Finger has learned the dance of King's Landing, and he is able to manipulate his way into getting what he wants, rather than taking it by force, which is what an ENTJ would do. ENTJ's are very direct, usually aggressive and commonly insult people. Little Finger is not like this at all. When I watch the show, I feel like Little Finger only shows us like 20% of what's going on in his head, and the rest is behind a curtain that he puts up to the world. This gives me a total INTJ vibe and I simply cannot see him as an ENTJ at all. I know several ENTJ's and Little Finger is nothing like them. He's too quiet, reserved, and just plain introverted. Being socially-adept is NOT the same thing as being extroverted.



Show me an example of Baelish leading with Ni first, and consistently.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think this person makes good points, and I agree that in the book Baelish is more social than the HBO adaptation. Are INTJs known for wanting to have a higher social standing? Don't many disregard social hierarchies? Often called "outcasts"? Baelish makes TONS of strategic moves that raise his social standing, I mean...Lysa for instance. These videos below discuss how Baelish used his relationships to position himself.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

His social ability is so good, he can position himself to benefit from these relationships. Again, a mark of an extrovert more than an introvert. In no way am I saying an introvert can't be socially savvy, but on Baelish's level? When he talks to people (especially Sansa) you can tell he is unraveling and sensing patterns that help him make moves socially.

yes
07-26-2015, 02:02 PM
He's all about duty.

You are not my son. You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty.

Hmm. I interpret that more the INTJ's ability to keep emotions internal, and to have all-in or all-out relationships. He went from loving father to strictly being a superior (Hand of the King > Lord Command of the Kingsguard), and abandoned his fatherly attitude in favor of his professional one. Inside, he's probably disappointed and hurt, but an INTJ would never let that show.

Distance
07-26-2015, 02:11 PM
Hmm. I interpret that more the INTJ's ability to keep emotions internal, and to have all-in or all-out relationships. He went from loving father to strictly being a superior (Hand of the King > Lord Command of the Kingsguard), and abandoned his fatherly attitude in favor of his professional one. Inside, he's probably disappointed and hurt, but an INTJ would never let that show.He was never fatherly, in a supportive manner. Authoritarian AND duty bound to family where his expectations were that his children must also follow the same path of duty, the duty to elevate the family in hierarchical standings.

Rumpelstiltskin
07-26-2015, 02:36 PM
You have a case with Tywin, Distance - but in my mind, that question mark in

Cersei Lannister - ES?J

just lost you all your credibility. If you think there's a remote possibility of Cersei being ESFJ, you ain't worth your salt.

Distance
07-26-2015, 02:38 PM
If you think there's a remote possibility of Cersei being ESFJMy guess was ES?J, which translates to uncertainty about ESFJ or ESTJ. Do tell what type you believe her to be and why.

Rumpelstiltskin
07-26-2015, 02:53 PM
My guess was ES?J, which translates to uncertainty about ESFJ or ESTJ. Do tell what type you believe her to be and why.

...precisely.

I think she's an ENTJ. This (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) should sell you on her being an N, and makes a good case for her being ENTJ on the whole. Another good one is her conversation with Martell. She's comfortable in the conceptual arena and habitually makes abstract observations. Also, by your own logic that tradition and duty = Si... she fucks her brother. Unashamedly. And claims she would "burn her house to the ground" before she leaves her sons in King's Landing.

Carnal
07-26-2015, 03:00 PM
...precisely.

I think she's an ENTJ. This (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) should sell you on her being an N, and makes a good case for her being ENTJ on the whole. Another good one is her conversation with Martell. She's comfortable in the conceptual arena and habitually makes abstract observations. Also, by your own logic that tradition and duty = Si... she fucks her brother. Unashamedly. And claims she would "burn her house to the ground" before she leaves her sons in King's Landing.

You haven't really read the books have you? She's as emotional as it gets.

yes
07-26-2015, 03:02 PM
...precisely.

I think she's an ENTJ. This (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) should sell you on her being an N, and makes a good case for her being ENTJ on the whole. Another good one is her conversation with Martell. She's comfortable in the conceptual arena and habitually makes abstract observations. Also, by your own logic that tradition and duty = Si... she fucks her brother. Unashamedly. And claims she would "burn her house to the ground" before she leaves her sons in King's Landing.
Ehhhh. she does all this stuff in an attempt to emulate Tywin. The whole point of her plot in the 4th book is that she doesn't know what she's doing. People treat as though she does, but everything she's done, across all the books, ended up backfiring and causing her ruin.

Carnal
07-26-2015, 03:04 PM
Ehhhh. she does all this stuff in an attempt to emulate Tywin. The whole point of her plot in the 4th book is that she doesn't know what she's doing. People treat as though she does, but everything she's done, across all the books, ended up backfiring and causing her ruin.

She throws an emotional fit when things don't go her way, citing her families name in an attempt to gain power. That doesn't seem very ENTJ to me.

Rumpelstiltskin
07-26-2015, 03:08 PM
You haven't really read the books have you? She's as emotional as it gets.

No. The OP was based on the HBO series and so are most of the posts in this thread.

But yeah, ENTJs can't be emotional, silly me. Why don't you be the first to make the case for her being an IxFP?

She throws an emotional fit when things don't go her way, citing her families name in an attempt to gain power. That doesn't seem very ENTJ to me.

That seems very ENTJ to me.

yes
07-26-2015, 03:08 PM
She throws an emotional fit when things don't go her way, citing her families name in an attempt to gain power. That doesn't seem very ENTJ to me.
Yeah, I'm agreeing that she isn't an ENTJ. :P She thinks she is, as do most other people in the story (except for the actual Ni characters, who know she's full of it from the start).

Distance
07-26-2015, 03:15 PM
...precisely.

I think she's an ENTJ. This (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) should sell you on her being an N, and makes a good case for her being ENTJ on the whole. Another good one is her conversation with Martell. She's comfortable in the conceptual arena and habitually makes abstract observations. Also, by your own logic that tradition and duty = Si... she fucks her brother. Unashamedly. And claims she would "burn her house to the ground" before she leaves her sons in King's Landing.Check out this Margaery vs. Cersei clip. This is Fe.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Rumpelstiltskin
07-26-2015, 03:23 PM
Check out this Margaery vs. Cersei clip. This is Fe.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Then why aren't you settled on ESFJ?

And what about sadism is Fe? Or are you pulling this Fe = manipulation thing for the latter part of the clip? I'm going to agree with you that Fe is conducive to a certain kind of manipulation that depends on empathy. You can see that in action with Margaery - two very separate kinds of manipulation. Te users aren't autistic. Think Littlefinger is heavy on the Fe?

Distance
07-26-2015, 03:29 PM
Then why aren't you settled on ESFJ?

And what about sadism is Fe? Or are you pulling this Fe = manipulation thing for the latter part of the clip? I'm going to agree with you that Fe is conducive to a certain kind of manipulation that depends on empathy. You can see that in action with Margaery - two very separate kinds of manipulation. Te users aren't autistic. Think Littlefinger is heavy on the Fe?The manipulation is Fe style since she's gaslighting and mocking, rather than coming at Margaery head on. There's no purpose to dance since there are no witnesses.

Littlefinger manipulates by omission and dissembling.

Rumpelstiltskin
07-26-2015, 03:44 PM
The manipulation is Fe style since she's gaslighting and mocking, rather than coming at Margaery head on. There's no purpose to dance since there are no witnesses.

Littlefinger manipulates by omission and dissembling.

Can any kind of manipulation be described as head-on? And I didn't catch how she was 'manipulating' Margaery. Manipulatee calls manipulator a hateful bitch and tells her to leave?

On a side note, wouldn't it have been great if that nun had responded to "Look at my face - it's the last thing you'll see before you die." with "I'm confident I'll see the back of this door yet. *shuts door*"

God damn I should be a screenwriter.

Distance
07-26-2015, 03:51 PM
Can any kind of manipulation be described as head-on? And I didn't catch how she was 'manipulating' Margaery. Manipulatee calls manipulator a hateful bitch and tells her to leave?Gaslighting is a serious form of manipulation. Whether she was effective or not, would be irrelevant. It's the archness of the exchange, in addition to the unnecessary nature of the exchange, that would preclude an ENTJ. This is classic Fe when misused for abuse.

On a side note, wouldn't it have been great if that nun had responded to "Look at my face - it's the last thing you'll see before you die." with "I'm confident I'll see the back of this door yet. *shuts door*"

God damn I should be a screenwriter.Nah, that would be uncharacteristic for nuns as a generality, and for The Faith of the Seven, their belief in being stoic while humble.

Rumpelstiltskin
07-26-2015, 04:02 PM
Gaslighting is a serious form of manipulation. Whether she was effective or not, would be irrelevant. It's the archness of the exchange, in addition to the unnecessary nature of the exchange, that would preclude an ENTJ. This is classic Fe when misused for abuse.

And here you are, a self-proclaimed ENTJ, arguing with an internet stranger about a television character's MBTI. Stop being so absolute.
How was she gaslighting and why does this point to Fe to such an extent that it 'precludes' ENTJ or presumably any Te type? Again with the absolutes. You're probably hella good at maths, but no cognitive function is a prerequisite for any behaviour.

Nah, that would be uncharacteristic for nuns as a generality, and for The Faith of the Seven, their belief in being stoic while humble.

Life of the party, this guy :p

Distance
07-26-2015, 04:06 PM
Stop being so absolute.And yet you claim that there's no chance she's an ESFJ.

How was she gaslightingGo look up the meaning of gaslighting.

and why does this point to FeRefer to definition of gaslighting.

Rumpelstiltskin
07-26-2015, 04:23 PM
And yet you claim that there's no chance she's an ESFJ.

Oh yeah. The occasional absolute is fine by me. Miley Cyrus isn't an INTJ and if you think she is then step in front of a train. Try not to defy your own autistic assertions though.

Go look up the meaning of gaslighting.

I used to accuse anyone disagreeing with me of not being well acquainted with their terminology, too. Then I became a teenager.

Distance
07-26-2015, 04:25 PM
Oh yeah. The occasional absolute is fine by me. Miley Cyrus isn't an INTJ and if you think she is then step in front of a train. Try not to defy your own autistic assertions though.

I used to accuse anyone disagreeing with me of not being well acquainted with their terminology, too. Then I became a teenager.Why has this discussion become so personal? Because I don't agree with you, even though you challenged my position to begin with?

chicks
07-26-2015, 04:29 PM
Show me an example of Baelish leading with Ni first, and consistently.

His social ability is so good, he can position himself to benefit from these relationships. Again, a mark of an extrovert more than an introvert. In no way am I saying an introvert can't be socially savvy, but on Baelish's level? When he talks to people (especially Sansa) you can tell he is unraveling and sensing patterns that help him make moves socially.

Social ability? I have never read the books, but in the show, Baelish is an opportunistic worm with no clear objective. Often, his motives are unclear and he is very indirect in the way he goes about getting things (for example, poisoning Joffrey for the Martells.) Compare this to ENTJ Tywin who takes what he wants and gives no fucks about what anybody thinks about it. Tywin has a goal and is comfortable controlling people and giving orders in order to acheive that goal = extreme example of ENTJ leading with Te function. Baelish on the other hand works behind the scenes, and as you said yourself "you can tell he is unraveling and sensing patterns that help him make moves socially" which sounds like classic Ni being applied for personal gain.

Little Finger is remarkable for being able to see the next ten or fifteen steps that could arise from a given situation or opportunity. This is alot like Walter White from Breaking Bad, who is a very clear example of an INTJ if you are familiar with that show. Always planning and scheming, that's INTJ.

Again, I haven't read the books, and I bet that is one reason for our difference in opinion, but the actor who portrays him certainly does not act out an ENTJesque character, and the actions and thought processes of Baelish lead me to suspect he must be an INTJ. Of course, it is always possible he is an ENTJ, but I just don't see it.

---------- Post added 07-26-2015 at 04:37 PM ----------


On a side note, wouldn't it have been great if that nun had responded to "Look at my face - it's the last thing you'll see before you die." with "I'm confident I'll see the back of this door yet. *shuts door*"

fucking lulz

Carnal
07-26-2015, 04:49 PM
His motives are unclear? I can't really take you serious after reading that... I suggest watching the videos I posted.

sacredcashcow
07-26-2015, 05:11 PM
Just the interesting characters:

Peterfinger - ENTJ

Tywin - ESTJ

Tyrion - ENTP

Stannis - ISTJ

The hound - ISTP

Brienne - ISTJ

Robert - ESTP

Jamie - ESTP

Cersei - ENFJ

Varys - this one is difficult for me to say. But I actually think he is ENTJ over ENFJ.

Oberyn - ESFP

Khaleesi - ENFJ

Sir Friendzone - ISFJ

INFJfemale
07-26-2015, 05:13 PM
If anyone is an INFJ, it's Arya Stark. Sansa Stark is an ISTJ, the duty fulfiller.

Sansa's first duty is to her family, and her job is to secure a favourable alliance by marriage. Just like her brothers are being groomed for combat and leadership, Sansa spends as much devotion to learning the arts of a lady. She gets angry at her sister Arya for making her look bad. Everything depends on her, for if she can marry the Crown Prince, the status and power of her family will increase by more than anything her brother Robb can secure by force.

Being a lady is never easy. (Read the opening chapters of "Gone With the Wind" to see what is required). There is so much you have to control about your behaviour, and the important thing is to make it seem so effortless. That's why someone with no understanding about these things thinks that she's useless. They think she is just faffing about. But in fact upholding that training in Kings landing, under intense scrutiny, competition, and political pressure is an endurance event.

But even when her family was murdered and she was being abused, Sansa never gave up.

I would like to see any of you try the arts of a lady for more than five minutes without scratching your nose or making a complaint or acting in a rage, let alone what Sansa endured.

Back to MBTI, Sansa's interactions with others were based on analysis. As compared to Margery Tyrell, a woman with similar goals, who has more empathic understanding than Sansa. Sansa knows what to say based on her training, whereas Margery can improvise, manipulate and so forth based on her abilities with people. This is why a T for Sansa and an F for Margery. (ENFP for Margery, but I'm going to talk about Arya now)

Arya knows that only one daughter is going to marry the Prince so she doesn't even bother competing with Sansa. She inherits her sense of justice from her father.

The introvert in her is fairly obvious, she entertains herself with her curiosity, chasing cats, discovering dungeons and so forth.

And yet she has friends. Friends she's not supposed to be friends with, like the butcher's boy. She deliberately doesn't act like a lady, deliberately doesn't choose that kind of power.

Her desire to take revenge, over time, and dispense a different kind of justice for the downtrodden - this is not a sensing characteristic.

I see the same processes in myself. I'm not about to kill anyone, but I don't like this imbalance and abuse of power, these injustices. I try to educate. But it's the same drive.

Arya Stark, INFJ.

catzama
07-26-2015, 05:24 PM
js I have yet to see Arya lead with Ni

sacredcashcow
07-26-2015, 06:33 PM
Arya is difficult to type but she definitely is Ni > Ne.. ISFP? I could see INFJ too...but something about it seems wrong

Distance
07-26-2015, 06:40 PM
ISTPs have Ni tert. And I agree that she's not a Ne type.

INFJfemale
07-26-2015, 08:01 PM
js I have yet to see Arya lead with Ni

You won't see it.

When she got lost in King's landing, and she tried to get back in the castle, the soldiers wouldn't let her in, treating her like someone from the gutter (well, that's what she looked like). Do you remember how she insisted she was a girl? She often insisted she was a girl, despite looking like a poor orphan boy all the time.

On the surface you might think she's a tomboy who's hopeless at needlework. Underneath there is something else going on.

Arya sees the injustices in her world, and she knows that this is brought about by a strict adherence to language dichotomies (lords are like x, commoners like y). Arya sees to push the boundaries of these dichotomies and force people to realise that people are people. That the commoners are the same as the lords. That girls and boys are much the same.

She insists that Myka, the butchers boy, was her friend, equal to the same treatment as her. This is a totally different reality from everybody else.

When she goes about killing people, she doesn't do it for the same reasons as the Hound. The Hound likes killing people. Arya wants more than that. She wants people to pay for not accepting her terms of reality. She wanted her friend with the broken leg to be treated like a person, and the killer had to pay for his disregard of her terms. In his world, that boy was worthless.

I think that in everything Arya does, she is leading with Ni.

catzama
07-26-2015, 08:03 PM
None of that excludes any other feeling types. Fi is also sensitive to injustice, and she prefers to act rather than think about social causes. I've seen people call her ISxP most often (depends on whether the person sees her as acting on Fi or Ti like Katniss) but I agree with this call. She's more of a doer than a ponderer. She wants to see tangible changes in her world, she deals often in what she can physically accomplish.

INFJfemale
07-26-2015, 08:53 PM
None of that excludes any other feeling types. Fi is also sensitive to injustice, and she prefers to act rather than think about social causes. I've seen people call her ISxP most often (depends on whether the person sees her as acting on Fi or Ti like Katniss) but I agree with this call. She's more of a doer than a ponderer. She wants to see tangible changes in her world, she deals often in what she can physically accomplish.

You think what I just described is related to the F alone? It is Ni through Fe. Most F types go with the. Flow socially. Please, describe to me how every F type antagonises like Arya. Elucidate for me how an S type analyses complex ethical conundrums with no training then develops and implements a risky yet abstract endeavour. Explain how an SF type can be so driven by something so abstract they have worked out themselves? Woh getting all fired up now. You're prob right

chicks
07-27-2015, 06:44 PM
His motives are unclear? I can't really take you serious after reading that... I suggest watching the videos I posted.

Lol your ultimate rebuttal... this is about the third time I've seen you use it in this thread alone.

He does have motives but a better way to put it would be that he has no clear end objective. When Roz asks him what it is that he wants, he says "everything." Vague as fuck and maybe could be construed as a vie at world domination, but it is more important to look at how he goes about getting what he wants. He works behind the scenes, plotting, scheming, trying to outsmart and outmaneuver every other character. He is exactly like Walter from Breaking Bad in this regard, although colder and with less loyalty. If he were an entj, it seems that he would be much more overt and forthcoming, like Tywin. Entjs are known for seeking to control outcomes via assertiveness and even aggression. This is not Bealish. I don't give two shits.how socially skilled he is because intjs are incredibly adaptable and can learn most anything. Baelish is a plotter, not a conqueror. Another example is his indirect, sarcastic sense of humor, quipping at the old knight who shed his armor when forced to resign from the Kings Guard (cant remember his name.) Sarcastic remarks like that are the most comfortable vehicle for intjs to deliver their humor, and is just one facet of why I think he is intj,

That said, I could possibly see him as a sissyish entj, but he really doesnt strike me as such. I would rather he were an entj because I do not like his character, and again this is all based on the show.

You think what I just described is related to the F alone? It is Ni through Fe. Most F types go with the. Flow socially. Please, describe to me how every F type antagonises like Arya. Elucidate for me how an S type analyses complex ethical conundrums with no training then develops and implements a risky yet abstract endeavour. Explain how an SF type can be so driven by something so abstract they have worked out themselves? Woh getting all fired up now. You're prob right

Lol don't get all fired up girl, this is just a typical online debate, enjoy it.

I don't understand how Arya is F at all. You yourself say that most F types go with the flow and yet Arya goes against the grain in most every way imaginable out of being true to herself. Of the infjs I have known in my life, none of them do this at all, and Ive known three very well for over a decade. Also, I believe that risk would be more associated with SP types out of the four types, and especially more than NFs, such as ESTPs who are renowned for their risky behavior.

The Arya you describe must be from the books, because the Arya from the show is nothing like what you said. Infjs are healers and sympathetic and shit like that... when the fuck do we ever see that in Arya? She does stay true to her feelings, this is true... but infj is such a long shot that I just don't know what you're talking about. You also said something like "how does an S type analyze complex moral conundrums"... first off please clarify what in the Seven Hells you're talking about... I'm assuming that leaving Kings Landing and becoming a travelling killer qualified as "analyzing complex moral conundrums" lol, I feel like you were just trying to find big words to use there. Please submit a meaningful reply because I've about given up on this thread.

byte me
07-27-2015, 06:58 PM
Interesting I took too quizzes and got arya stark both times. Maybe I should just accept the ISTP badge.

Carnal
07-27-2015, 07:18 PM
Lol your ultimate rebuttal... this is about the third time I've seen you use it in this thread alone.

He does have motives but a better way to put it would be that he has no clear end objective. When Roz asks him what it is that he wants, he says "everything." Vague as fuck and maybe could be construed as a vie at world domination, but it is more important to look at how he goes about getting what he wants. He works behind the scenes, plotting, scheming, trying to outsmart and outmaneuver every other character. He is exactly like Walter from Breaking Bad in this regard, although colder and with less loyalty. If he were an entj, it seems that he would be much more overt and forthcoming, like Tywin. Entjs are known for seeking to control outcomes via assertiveness and even aggression. This is not Bealish. I don't give two shits.how socially skilled he is because intjs are incredibly adaptable and can learn most anything. Baelish is a plotter, not a conqueror. Another example is his indirect, sarcastic sense of humor, quipping at the old knight who shed his armor when forced to resign from the Kings Guard (cant remember his name.) Sarcastic remarks like that are the most comfortable vehicle for intjs to deliver their humor, and is just one facet of why I think he is intj,

That said, I could possibly see him as a sissyish entj, but he really doesnt strike me as such. I would rather he were an entj because I do not like his character, and again this is all based on the show.



Ermm...I used it once, in the post you quoted. It's just kind of hard to take your opinion serious when you say things like that, or say Baelish doesn't have clear motives. Everything he did was premeditated in attempts to raise his social status, and position himself strategically. I know you didn't watch it, but if you watched the videos I posted you would realize that.

yes
07-27-2015, 07:25 PM
Ermm...I used it once, in the post you quoted. It's just kind of hard to take your opinion serious when you say things like that, or say Baelish doesn't have clear motives. Everything he did was premeditated in attempts to raise his social status, and position himself strategically. I know you didn't watch it, but if you watched the videos I posted you would realize that.
If you really want to be impressed with Littlefinger's forethought and planning, watch this video series (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). It's largely conjecture, and based on the books (so some stuff won't make sense to show watchers), but it's amazing to see what he might be planning.

catzama
07-27-2015, 07:29 PM
If you really want to be impressed with Littlefinger's forethought and planning, watch this video series (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). It's largely conjecture, and based on the books (so some stuff won't make sense to show watchers), but it's amazing to see what he might be planning.

Yeah I definitely agree with the Ni Littelfinger call. As far as NTJ goes, not so sure? He seems to have a lot of social grace and smarmyness that NTJs generally don't possess. It's why I think people type him as ENTP so often because of that tert Fe.

Carnal
07-27-2015, 07:41 PM
If you really want to be impressed with Littlefinger's forethought and planning, watch this video series (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). It's largely conjecture, and based on the books (so some stuff won't make sense to show watchers), but it's amazing to see what he might be planning.

I am more than aware of what he is capable of, which is why I posted a series of videos myself.

Yeah I definitely agree with the Ni Littelfinger call. As far as NTJ goes, not so sure? He seems to have a lot of social grace and smarmyness that NTJs generally don't possess. It's why I think people type him as ENTP so often because of that tert Fe.

Since when can't an ENTJ be charming? They are often cited as being capable of charm and charisma. Littlefinger is focused on achieving goals, it's fairly easy to see he's not an ENTP when you compare him to Tyrion.

yes
07-27-2015, 07:42 PM
Yeah I definitely agree with the Ni Littelfinger call. As far as NTJ goes, not so sure? He seems to have a lot of social grace and smarmyness that NTJs generally don't possess. It's why I think people type him as ENTP so often because of that tert Fe.
Littlefinger's whole story is that he learned at a young age that he will never be a physical challenge to his enemies, and will need to master other means in order to achieve his full potential. For him, this meant learning persuasion and social manipulation. Sounds to me like an INTJ forming a plan towards a goal and nailing it.

Also consider his obsession with Cat... And we INTJs tend to get fixated on ideas and have a hard time letting go, and work towards them slowly and with great patience.

INFJfemale
07-27-2015, 07:44 PM
Lol your ultimate rebuttal... this is about the third time I've seen you use it in this thread alone.



Lol don't get all fired up girl, this is just a typical online debate, enjoy it.

I don't understand how Arya is F at all. You yourself say that most F types go with the flow and yet Arya goes against the grain in most every way imaginable out of being true to herself. Of the infjs I have known in my life, none of them do this at all, and Ive known three very well for over a decade. Also, I believe that risk would be more associated with SP types out of the four types, and especially more than NFs, such as ESTPs who are renowned for their risky behavior.

The Arya you describe must be from the books, because the Arya from the show is nothing like what you said. Infjs are healers and sympathetic and shit like that... when the fuck do we ever see that in Arya? She does stay true to her feelings, this is true... but infj is such a long shot that I just don't know what you're talking about. You also said something like "how does an S type analyze complex moral conundrums"... first off please clarify what in the Seven Hells you're talking about... I'm assuming that leaving Kings Landing and becoming a travelling killer qualified as "analyzing complex moral conundrums" lol, I feel like you were just trying to find big words to use there. Please submit a meaningful reply because I've about given up on this thread.

I think you didn't see my earlier post about Arya which is quite long and answers all your questions. What you just said about INFJs is like saying how a tiger is all fluffy and stuff. If you didn't get it the first time in the tv series, if I try to explain that Arya and the Hound are killing for different reasons, if you don't or won't try to understand her motivations, then there is no point me trying to explain it again.

Carnal
07-27-2015, 07:49 PM
Littlefinger's whole story is that he learned at a young age that he will never be a physical challenge to his enemies, and will need to master other means in order to achieve his full potential. For him, this meant learning persuasion and social manipulation. Sounds to me like an INTJ forming a plan towards a goal and nailing it.

Also consider his obsession with Cat... And we INTJs tend to get fixated on ideas and have a hard time letting go, and work towards them slowly and with great patience.

Why would he care so much about being social though? Why does he care so much about a social status? Can you show me an example of an INTJ in fiction who was THAT focused on having a high social status? I can't think of one.

catzama
07-27-2015, 07:54 PM
ISince when can't an ENTJ be charming? They are often cited as being capable of charm and charisma. Littlefinger is focused on achieving goals, it's fairly easy to see he's not an ENTP when you compare him to Tyrion.

I'll believe it when I meet a charming ENTJ :p

Kirsanov
07-27-2015, 08:30 PM
Then you have Varys who comes off as the biggest xNFJ creep. I don't think someone would have to try to hard to convince me that he is an INFJ, but I have only watched the series. I think the hard part is that most INFJ men aren't overtly effeminate. Slightly off topic, but, aside from Varys, most INFJ characters appear similar to INTJs. Count Dooku is almost universally typed as INFJ, and Saruman leans INFJ given his propensity to sway people with his speech. They have strong ideals and they use their speech to entice people to their cause. This reminds me of Varys who has his own ideals concerning the kingdom and power.

Distance
07-27-2015, 10:03 PM
:shrugs: I like Varys. He's very clever where he and Tyrion have excellent chemistry.

Kirsanov
07-28-2015, 12:27 AM
:shrugs: I like Varys. He's very clever where he and Tyrion have excellent chemistry.

Oh, yes he is very clever. I like him in the series. He just has something unsettling about him, but I love how he is the bank for information.

Maiohmy
07-28-2015, 01:02 AM
You won't see it.

When she got lost in King's landing, and she tried to get back in the castle, the soldiers wouldn't let her in, treating her like someone from the gutter (well, that's what she looked like). Do you remember how she insisted she was a girl? She often insisted she was a girl, despite looking like a poor orphan boy all the time.

On the surface you might think she's a tomboy who's hopeless at needlework. Underneath there is something else going on.

Arya sees the injustices in her world, and she knows that this is brought about by a strict adherence to language dichotomies (lords are like x, commoners like y). Arya sees to push the boundaries of these dichotomies and force people to realise that people are people. That the commoners are the same as the lords. That girls and boys are much the same.

She insists that Myka, the butchers boy, was her friend, equal to the same treatment as her. This is a totally different reality from everybody else.

When she goes about killing people, she doesn't do it for the same reasons as the Hound. The Hound likes killing people. Arya wants more than that. She wants people to pay for not accepting her terms of reality. She wanted her friend with the broken leg to be treated like a person, and the killer had to pay for his disregard of her terms. In his world, that boy was worthless.

I think that in everything Arya does, she is leading with Ni.

Everything Arya does is very Ti-Se driven. Emphasis on the Se. Giving you the benefit of the doubt though, INFJs do share the same functions. However....you've got to be kidding me with this argument.

Arya is motivated because she's angry. To her knowledge (besides Sansa and Jon) her entire family is dead. Anybody would be angry. But she doesn't despair. She wants revenge and doesn't care what she has to do to get it. Morality does not concern her as much as you think.

Your example with the butcher's son demonstrated further more how she does not wear her emotions on her selves. Arya and the butcher's son played together and they were friends. He wasn't afraid to play rough with her and she liked that. She didn't have to put on an act and behave like how high-born girls should. Anger of his death does not prove Ni. Most certainly not aux Fe.

INFJfemale
07-28-2015, 03:13 AM
Everything Arya does is very Ti-Se driven. Emphasis on the Se. Giving you the benefit of the doubt though, INFJs do share the same functions. However....you've got to be kidding me with this argument.

Arya is motivated because she's angry. To her knowledge (besides Sansa and Jon) her entire family is dead. Anybody would be angry. But she doesn't despair. She wants revenge and doesn't care what she has to do to get it. Morality does not concern her as much as you think.

Your example with the butcher's son demonstrated further more how she does not wear her emotions on her selves. Arya and the butcher's son played together and they were friends. He wasn't afraid to play rough with her and she liked that. She didn't have to put on an act and behave like how high-born girls should. Anger of his death does not prove Ni. Most certainly not aux Fe.

You're just looking at surface behaviour. The workings of the INFJ mind are hard to detect. Let me give you an example from my own life. I have an issue with the class divide, not the existence of classes per se but the dehumanization of the poorer people by the richer. For my mental illness I have the option to be treated in the private system with the so called better people but I choose to use the public system. there are certain professional staff who think the public patients are scum. When they treat me, someone educated and knows more than they do, it really challenges their whole mental system. They must accept that 'them' and 'us' are the same.

Arya does this from the beginning. When she's deliberately bad at needlework but good at archery, it seems she is just a tomboy. But what kind of tomboy deliberatwly antagonises and then INSISTS she is a girl despite evidence to the contrary? IS Arya so stupid she doesn't understand the guards won't let her in looking like a scruffy urchin? Of course she knows, and she milks it for all she's worth before finally playing the trump card of her true identity.

she insists her friend is worth the same as a noble and vows to avenge him as a nobleman would be avenged, and upholding this value takes her to the dark side of being an INFJ.

dontfuckwithme
07-28-2015, 06:25 AM
Infjs are healers and sympathetic and shit like that.

What you just said about INFJs is like saying how a tiger is all fluffy and stuff.

LOL!!


I haven't watched the series quite enough to be commenting on Arya's type, although I do think she's an introvert, but that's not saying much.

Cersei, in my opinion, leads with Fe, so EXFJ all the way for her.

I don't think Jon Snow is an INFJ because if he was then he would have known that his men were conspiring to kill him a million miles off. He wouldn't have been blithely unaware of their underlying emotions and motivations. Gimme a break; no INFJ there.

I still say it's kind of pointless to try and type TV characters, though...

Maiohmy
07-28-2015, 06:57 AM
You're just looking at surface behaviour. The workings of the INFJ mind are hard to detect. Let me give you an example from my own life. I have an issue with the class divide, not the existence of classes per se but the dehumanization of the poorer people by the richer. For my mental illness I have the option to be treated in the private system with the so called better people but I choose to use the public system. there are certain professional staff who think the public patients are scum. When they treat me, someone educated and knows more than they do, it really challenges their whole mental system. They must accept that 'them' and 'us' are the same.

Arya does this from the beginning. When she's deliberately bad at needlework but good at archery, it seems she is just a tomboy. But what kind of tomboy deliberatwly antagonises and then INSISTS she is a girl despite evidence to the contrary? IS Arya so stupid she doesn't understand the guards won't let her in looking like a scruffy urchin? Of course she knows, and she milks it for all she's worth before finally playing the trump card of her true identity.

she insists her friend is worth the same as a noble and vows to avenge him as a nobleman would be avenged, and upholding this value takes her to the dark side of being an INFJ.

A great example of a fictional INFJ gone wrong after revenge as well is Emily from (ironically) the show Revenge. Emotional manipulation and scheming from day one. Ayra doesn't operate like that. She's blunt and it's no secret she's angry.

Using yourself as an example??? That's not very convincing lol you may identify with her. But that doesn't make her you.

Carnal
07-28-2015, 07:52 AM
Oh, yes he is very clever. I like him in the series. He just has something unsettling about him, but I love how he is the bank for information.

Well like Petyr says...it's hard to trust a eunuch because you don't know what they want.

Distance
07-28-2015, 08:02 AM
Oh, yes he is very clever. I like him in the series. He just has something unsettling about him, but I love how he is the bank for information.He's the epitome of sleight of hand and is a ghost that you can't pin down since he has his own agenda which might or might not be apparent/as stated.

yes
07-28-2015, 09:11 AM
Why would he care so much about being social though? Why does he care so much about a social status?
Because they live in a aristocracy where social status is a significant factor in what a person is permitted to do? And the Baelish family, although a proper house, are the Shih Tzus of Westerosi nobility. Littlefinger needs higher social rank to accomplish his goals.

Can you show me an example of an INTJ in fiction who was THAT focused on having a high social status? I can't think of one.
Roose Bolton?

chicks
07-28-2015, 09:20 AM
What you just said about INFJs is like saying how a tiger is all fluffy and stuff.

Tigers are fluffy and stuff. :mad:

Arya does this from the beginning. When she's deliberately bad at needlework but good at archery, it seems she is just a tomboy. But what kind of tomboy deliberatwly antagonises and then INSISTS she is a girl despite evidence to the contrary? IS Arya so stupid she doesn't understand the guards won't let her in looking like a scruffy urchin? Of course she knows, and she milks it for all she's worth before finally playing the trump card of her true identity.

she insists her friend is worth the same as a noble and vows to avenge him as a nobleman would be avenged, and upholding this value takes her to the dark side of being an INFJ.

A large part of the rift between our perceptions of Arya must stem from the fact that you read the books and I have only watched the show. I guess I just don't understand how you are correlating these things to Ni and Fe. It seems to be important to you that Arya antagonizes her enemies, but I don't see how this makes her NFJ. I am still convinced she is closer to an ISTP, especially with her strong Se preference as someone else mentioned. She is moral in a simple but not heartfelt kind of way (compared to, say, Danaerys = strong F, probably INFJ.) I never see Arya lead with Ni... I don't know any other way to put it than what I have said. You, being an INFJ, must see some underlying similarities between her character and yourself.

If you have a way to rephrase your argument I would be interested to hear it. And could someone explain how Tywin is an ESTJ?

Carnal
07-28-2015, 09:36 AM
Because they live in a aristocracy where social status is a significant factor in what a person is permitted to do? And the Baelish family, although a proper house, are the Shih Tzus of Westerosi nobility. Littlefinger needs higher social rank to accomplish his goals.


Roose Bolton?

I was assuming you would bring up more obvious INTJs in other fiction, and not one that is speculative like Roose. I don't see much N in him.

Kirsanov
07-28-2015, 09:47 AM
Tigers are fluffy and stuff. :mad:



A large part of the rift between our perceptions of Arya must stem from the fact that you read the books and I have only watched the show. I guess I just don't understand how you are correlating these things to Ni and Fe. It seems to be important to you that Arya antagonizes her enemies, but I don't see how this makes her NFJ. I am still convinced she is closer to an ISTP, especially with her strong Se preference as someone else mentioned. She is moral in a simple but not heartfelt kind of way (compared to, say, Danaerys = strong F, probably INFJ.) I never see Arya lead with Ni... I don't know any other way to put it than what I have said. You, being an INFJ, must see some underlying similarities between her character and yourself.

If you have a way to rephrase your argument I would be interested to hear it. And could someone explain how Tywin is an ESTJ?
Yeah, I think she is an ISTP too. Tywin looks like a consistent ESTJ. He always talks about upholding the family and its legacy. It is not as much about him enacting an egomaniacal dream as much as it is about creating a Lannister dynasty. He back stabs and conspires in order to ensure the family's legitimacy and endurance.

He's the epitome of sleight of hand and is a ghost that you can't pin down since he has his own agenda which might or might not be apparent/as stated.

Ahhh yes, that is the perfect word in this context. I hate how it is entirely co-opted by magicians, when all it comes down to is disguise. A person can veil their words and actions, just as much as a stupid card trick.

Carnal
07-28-2015, 09:53 AM
Yeah, I think she is an ISTP too. Tywin looks like a consistent ESTJ. He always talks about upholding the family and its legacy. It is not as much about him enacting an egomaniacal dream as much as it is about creating a Lannister dynasty. He back stabs and conspires in order to ensure the family's legitimacy and endurance.



Ahhh yes, that is the perfect word in this context. I hate how it is entirely co-opted by magicians, when all it comes down to is disguise. A person can veil their words and actions, just as much as a stupid card trick.

That's exactly why I think he's an ESTJ too. It's just hilarious. I know ENTJs have a stigma associated to them but who would have thought that every mean or evil character is labeled an ENTJ :laugh:

yes
07-28-2015, 11:07 AM
I was assuming you would bring up more obvious INTJs in other fiction
I didn't bring up other fictional INTJs because there aren't many (if any) that apply to this scenario. INTJs in fiction are usually used in one of three ways:

1. In a meritocracy, where the INTJ is given position and resources as it proves itself (eg. Mycroft Holmes, Temperance Brennan from Bones, etc). Not applicable to GoT as it has limited meritocracy (and what meritocracy it has brought Littlefinger to Master of Coin, but couldn't bring him any further)

2. As an adviser. Someone being used for their talents but that typically makes no effort/is unable to advance. Doesn't apply to Littlefinger, as he wants/needs to gain power to further his goals.

3. As a rogue. Someone actively working against or defying laws to accomplish their goals (eg Moriarty, Batman). Although conniving, Littlefinger is using the current system to further his needs rather than operating outside of it, so this doesn't apply to him either.

So I didn't bring in any other famous INTJs because Littlefinger is somewhat of a fictional INTJ anomaly, and it is difficult to find comparable characters. It's probably what makes him so captivating as a character, too, since readers aren't used to/expecting a character like him.

and not one that is speculative like Roose. I don't see much N in him.
You didn't see the N in Roose? Which books did you read? :suspicious: He spent the entire War of the Five Kings weakening northern houses that he expected would oppose him while making alliances with houses that could help him... And all with patience and careful planning. How is he not Ni?

Carnal
07-28-2015, 11:29 AM
I didn't bring up other fictional INTJs because there aren't many (if any) that apply to this scenario. INTJs in fiction are usually used in one of three ways:

1. In a meritocracy, where the INTJ is given position and resources as it proves itself (eg. Mycroft Holmes, Temperance Brennan from Bones, etc). Not applicable to GoT as it has limited meritocracy (and what meritocracy it has brought Littlefinger to Master of Coin, but couldn't bring him any further)

2. As an adviser. Someone being used for their talents but that typically makes no effort/is unable to advance. Doesn't apply to Littlefinger, as he wants/needs to gain power to further his goals.

3. As a rogue. Someone actively working against or defying laws to accomplish their goals (eg Moriarty, Batman). Although conniving, Littlefinger is using the current system to further his needs rather than operating outside of it, so this doesn't apply to him either.

So I didn't bring in any other famous INTJs because Littlefinger is somewhat of a fictional INTJ anomaly, and it is difficult to find comparable characters. It's probably what makes him so captivating as a character, too, since readers aren't used to/expecting a character like him.


You didn't see the N in Roose? Which books did you read? :suspicious: He spent the entire War of the Five Kings weakening northern houses that he expected would oppose him while making alliances with houses that could help him... And all with patience and careful planning. How is he not Ni?

The meritocracy paradigm only goes so far. It's not unlike a INTJ to be at a high level in a certain society or social standing, but it's not typically because they try so hard to get there. Compare Asha, who's an obvious introvert, to the others you listed. She only cares about leading those around her, because she believes her way stronger. Not because she necessarily wants the "power" associated with it. A contrast to her brother, who most definitely wants the glory and standing that goes with it.


Good point about Roose, that's a detail I have forgotten. Out of curiosity, any other examples? He might be the only INTJ I have seen on the show. When have you seen Roose being particularly charming though (a quality more common in ENTJs)? Does he seem to care what others think? Nope, his son is psychotic and he doesn't seem bothered. Sure Roose got favor when he did what he did (spoilers etc), but it was to position himself in the north as warden. Not to be king, or to be something greater. His focus is to his immediate surroundings, and more focused inward I would say. Petyr wants EVERYTHING, he has his hand in everything around him.

yes
07-28-2015, 12:22 PM
The meritocracy paradigm only goes so far. It's not unlike a INTJ to be at a high level in a certain society or social standing, but it's not typically because they try so hard to get there. Compare Asha, who's an obvious introvert, to the others you listed. She only cares about leading those around her, because she believes her way stronger. Not because she necessarily wants the "power" associated with it. A contrast to her brother, who most definitely wants the glory and standing that goes with it.
Does this relate to Littlefinger at all? I'm not sure what point you're trying to get across in regards to his actions.

Good point about Roose, that's a detail I have forgotten. Out of curiosity, any other examples? He might be the only INTJ I have seen on the show. When have you seen Roose being particularly charming though (a quality more common in ENTJs)? Does he seem to care what others think? Nope, his son is psychotic and he doesn't seem bothered. Sure Roose got favor when he did what he did (spoilers etc), but it was to position himself in the north as warden. Not to be king, or to be something greater. His focus is to his immediate surroundings, and more focused inward I would say. Petyr wants EVERYTHING, he has his hand in everything around him.
Roose doesn't show any charm (and I don't think ever did). Wanting a high social status has nothing to do with extroversion or charm; it only has to do with ambition. It's can be seen as a measurement of personal success (again, regardless of charm/extroversion), or, in what I believe is Littlefinger's case, a way to gain leverage over others.

And Littlefinger doesn't want "everything", he just acts that way to cast a smokescreen on his true intentions, so that people are never sure how to stop him. And the way Martin writes, he's trying to keep the readers blinded by the smokescreen as much as other characters. Don't interpret his actions and words literally, even when he seems to be speaking/acting in earnest.

sacredcashcow
07-28-2015, 01:32 PM
If Tywin were an ENTJ the odds would heavily favor him utilizing Tyrion's brilliance to secure his objectives. Instead his Si principles lead him to shun his greatest asset...

yes
07-28-2015, 01:40 PM
If Tywin were an ENTJ the odds would heavily favor him utilizing Tyrion's brilliance to secure his objectives. Instead his Si principles lead him to shun his greatest asset...
You mean stuff like having Tyrion act as the Hand of the King whilst he was away at war?

Distance
07-28-2015, 01:45 PM
You mean stuff like having Tyrion act as the Hand of the King whilst he was away at war?There was no other choice at the time, since Tywin wanted to retain power in the family, the cornerstone of his being, that of duty to the family name.

Carnal
07-28-2015, 02:13 PM
Does this relate to Littlefinger at all? I'm not sure what point you're trying to get across in regards to his actions.


Roose doesn't show any charm (and I don't think ever did). Wanting a high social status has nothing to do with extroversion or charm; it only has to do with ambition. It's can be seen as a measurement of personal success (again, regardless of charm/extroversion), or, in what I believe is Littlefinger's case, a way to gain leverage over others.

And Littlefinger doesn't want "everything", he just acts that way to cast a smokescreen on his true intentions, so that people are never sure how to stop him. And the way Martin writes, he's trying to keep the readers blinded by the smokescreen as much as other characters. Don't interpret his actions and words literally, even when he seems to be speaking/acting in earnest.

Erm it's a comparison, you are trying to argue Littlefinger is an introvert...and I am saying he isn't by comparing him to other introverts and even extroverts.

Again, show me an INTJ who cares about having a high social status? Look at this forum, an overwhelming amount of INTJs identify as "gamma" types. They don't care about being seen as an outsider. This is very common in INTJs, why would it somehow disappear for Petyr? And then I talked about the meritocracy argument you made, and used Roose as an example. For an INTJ Roose seems to care very little about how he is perceived, as long as he is given what he wants (ambition).


Per the bolded. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

He wants the wife, he wants the crown, he wants the power, he wants EVERYTHING as he says in the video. I mean he created his own sigil, a sigil I assume he wants to be immortalized. If you are saying Roose is an INTJ, and then saying Petyr is one too their characters are vastly different. And sure personality doesn't really factor into what MBTI they are necessarily, even how they go about solving problems is different. One is focused on those around him (and how they can benefit him), and the other his focused on himself (got his son his name from the king because he wants to carry on HIS legacy).

yes
07-28-2015, 03:02 PM
Erm it's a comparison, you are trying to argue Littlefinger is an introvert...and I am saying he isn't by comparing him to other introverts and even extroverts.
Just because INTJs haven't been portrayed this way before doesn't mean they can't be portrayed this way at all. Avoid comparisons; they are a weak argument.

But if you insist on comparing...

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

There, a bunch of introverts saying they can muster the energy to be social and charming if the need calls for it, if only for a short while. And have you ever noticed how whenever Littlefinger is done making his point, he always has some excuse of having to go somewhere? Almost as if he needs to get out before he can't keep up the charade?

Again, show me an INTJ who cares about having a high social status? Look at this forum, an overwhelming amount of INTJs identify as "gamma" types. They don't care about being seen as an outsider. This is very common in INTJs, why would it somehow disappear for Petyr? And then I talked about the meritocracy argument you made, and used Roose as an example. For an INTJ Roose seems to care very little about how he is perceived, as long as he is given what he wants (ambition).
[Social status] can be seen as..., in what I believe is Littlefinger's case, a way to gain leverage over others.
Were you just going to ignore that? Littlefinger doesn't care about his social stature or how others perceive him; improving his social rank is just a means to increase his leverage and further his personal agenda.

Per the bolded. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

He wants the wife, he wants the crown, he wants the power, he wants EVERYTHING as he says in the video. I mean he created his own sigil, a sigil I assume he wants to be immortalized. If you are saying Roose is an INTJ, and then saying Petyr is one too their characters are vastly different. And sure personality doesn't really factor into what MBTI they are necessarily, even how they go about solving problems is different. One is focused on those around him (and how they can benefit him), and the other his focused on himself (got his son his name from the king because he wants to carry on HIS legacy).
Great scene! But that quote is just a smokescreen. The quote you should be looking at from that scene is:
Always keep your foes confused. If they don't know who you are, or what you want, they can't know what you plan to do next.
That's his real hand. Remember when he tells Ned Stark, "You are slow to learn, Lord Eddard. Distrusting me was the wisest thing you've done since you climbed down off your horse."? That's Littlefinger, teasing people with bits of truth when they think he's on their side, just as he's doing here. The "I want everything" part is just another way to keep people guessing and misguided.

INFJfemale
07-28-2015, 09:35 PM
A great example of a fictional INFJ gone wrong after revenge as well is Emily from (ironically) the show Revenge. Emotional manipulation and scheming from day one. Ayra doesn't operate like that. She's blunt and it's no secret she's angry.

Using yourself as an example??? That's not very convincing lol you may identify with her. But that doesn't make her you.

I haven't seen 'revenge' yet. I don't identify with Arya all that much but I do think we are both probably INFJ. I was merely trying to exemplify the thinking to you which can't be done with a TV character. Your and most people's capacity for empathy is limited to your own experiences and you will assign motivations according to what you know. If you don't grasp that an INFJ is always more than what s/he appears you will be caught up in believing that the INFJ IS what s/he appears to be and you will miss the point entirely.

My favourite character is Tyrion Lannister, not Arya

Maiohmy
07-28-2015, 09:55 PM
I haven't seen 'revenge' yet. I don't identify with Arya all that much but I do think we are both probably INFJ. I was merely trying to exemplify the thinking to you which can't be done with a TV character. Your and most people's capacity for empathy is limited to your own experiences and you will assign motivations according to what you know. If you don't grasp that an INFJ is always more than what s/he appears you will be caught up in believing that the INFJ IS what s/he appears to be and you will miss the point entirely.

My favourite character is Tyrion Lannister, not Arya

That's like...literally the same for every type :blank: ??? I do think INFJs appear to be introverted intuitives and yield the preference for emotions. I do not think Arya appears to favor this. She appears to be very uncomfortable with her own feelings in fact. Anger is all she always to show.

This is very uncharacteristic of the INFJ profile.

INFJfemale
07-28-2015, 10:24 PM
Yes, INFJs appear to be introverted intuitives, but only with a trusted few . When JON SNOW gives her Needle, how does she appear then? and with her father? The INFJ is a social chameleon. later in the series she develops her chameleonic skill further, quite literally.

There is often a lot of anger in an INFJ. an INFJ won't show you who they really are, so you won't know an INFJ unless they let you find out.

---------- Post added 07-29-2015 at 12:50 AM ----------

So for another example; people commonly confuse Dany as being an INFJ. They think she's mystical because she has dragons and loves people because she frees slaves. but the mystical aspect of INFJs is not in magic but in social abilities. Dany has little social ability other than an air of command and little reciprocity. she even conducts her personal relationships as a Queen. dany's drive to free the slaves comes from an understanding of the ethics of governance but she has little idea of how enacting this principle affects the people.

Danny's mistyping is another example of how people look at surface behaviour only.

I think she is probably ESTJ.

Maiohmy
07-29-2015, 10:48 AM
Yes, INFJs appear to be introverted intuitives, but only with a trusted few . When JON SNOW gives her Needle, how does she appear then? and with her father? The INFJ is a social chameleon. later in the series she develops her chameleonic skill further, quite literally.

There is often a lot of anger in an INFJ. an INFJ won't show you who they really are, so you won't know an INFJ unless they let you find out.

---------- Post added 07-29-2015 at 12:50 AM ----------

So for another example; people commonly confuse Dany as being an INFJ. They think she's mystical because she has dragons and loves people because she frees slaves. but the mystical aspect of INFJs is not in magic but in social abilities. Dany has little social ability other than an air of command and little reciprocity. she even conducts her personal relationships as a Queen. dany's drive to free the slaves comes from an understanding of the ethics of governance but she has little idea of how enacting this principle affects the people.

Danny's mistyping is another example of how people look at surface behaviour only.

I think she is probably ESTJ.

#INFJMysticalMasterRace

This entire analysis (from Arya to Jon to Daenerys) might be why some MBTI enthusiasts don't take Ni seriously/see it as irrational. But that's another thread :laugh:

Noelle
07-29-2015, 04:54 PM
I've always seen Arya as an ISTP.

As for Danerys...I kind of feel like she switched types in the middle of her story, which is why there's so much debate surrounding her character. I feel like in season one, she definitely could have been INFJ. She was very compliant with what was happening around her (Fe) and very accepting of things very different from her and adapting to a new culture (Ni over Si) as well as showing the "I know even though theres no proof" hallmark of Ni (knowing she had a son, walking into the fire, tending to the dragon eggs.)

In recent seasons, there's no way I'd see her as INFJ. I pegged her more as INFP. (I'm against slavery, at all costs, even if it makes things go bad.) Though, I paid no attention to season 5 so that may all have changed.

Distance
07-29-2015, 05:17 PM
INFJ and ISTP have the same functions but with dom/aux and tert/inf flipped.

INFJfemale
07-29-2015, 07:02 PM
I've always seen Arya as an ISTP.

As for Danerys...I kind of feel like she switched types in the middle of her story, which is why there's so much debate surrounding her character. I feel like in season one, she definitely could have been INFJ. She was very compliant with what was happening around her (Fe) and very accepting of things very different from her and adapting to a new culture (Ni over Si) as well as showing the "I know even though theres no proof" hallmark of Ni (knowing she had a son, walking into the fire, tending to the dragon eggs.)

In recent seasons, there's no way I'd see her as INFJ. I pegged her more as INFP. (I'm against slavery, at all costs, even if it makes things go bad.) Though, I paid no attention to season 5 so that may all have changed.

I don't see what Fe has to do with compliance. she complies with her brother as long as he is the authority then takes her chance to lead as soon as she realises she is the best authority. That is characteristic of ESTJ. As for what she seems to 'know', all of these examples are because if magic and not how she thinks. Except knowing she has a son, which a lot of women know.

Presenting argument a different way;
I/E:
Danaerys is not an introvert in that she does not have her own little world and she is energised by people. Arya does have her own little world and she is happier on her own.

S/N: Dany is always acting in the present moment whereas Arya will be anyone, anytime. Arya sees the general pattern behind events whereas Danaerys sees each specific event. She DOES want to see proof before acting.

F/T; these are both rational functions. Arya uses her Fe to deliberately antagonise along moral lines. it looks like she is making all these faux pas but they are deliberate and only strong Fe can achieve this. Dany's social interactions are systemising.

J/p both are judging types. They do not accept what is, only what should be.

---------- Post added 07-29-2015 at 09:04 PM ----------

Incidentally I haven't read the books.

yes
07-29-2015, 07:10 PM
Don't bother trying to type Dany. Her personality is whatever personality is necessary for her character to do the things the author(s) want her to do at particular plot points. She's one of the least realistic characters in the books/series.

Distance
07-29-2015, 08:11 PM
Arya is not an INFJ. She's an ISTP, in the moment, impulsive decision making, action oriented (high Se). That said, she will also use her Ni to figure out a plan, as long as the situation isn't too far in the future.

INFJfemale
07-29-2015, 08:21 PM
Don't bother trying to type Dany. Her personality is whatever personality is necessary for her character to do the things the author(s) want her to do at particular plot points. She's one of the least realistic characters in the books/series.

That just sounds like a challenge then. She's a magical ESTJ. Consider this opening quote about ESTJs from16 personalities. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

"ESTJs are representatives of tradition and order, utilizing their understanding of what is right, wrong and socially acceptable to bring families and communities together. Embracing the values of honesty, dedication and dignity, people with the ESTJ personality type are valued for their clear advice and guidance, and they happily lead the way on difficult paths."

Now this is not true of King Robert Baratheon. His understanding of right and wrong is the difference between an empty ale cup and a full one. Nor, obviously is it King Jofferey. But Danaerys is this kind of leader, always aiming to be fair and just and to abolish the slavery that is wrong for the whole community.

But was Danaerys always an ESTJ? What about in the first series where she wasn't a leader?

"ESTJs are also well-known for their loyalty and dedication, but in some ways this is contingent on their respect."

As I said earlier, Danaerys was loyal to her brother, and dedicated, but when he lost her respect what happened?

I also said earlier that anything to do with her magic has nothing to do with her personality, but maybe that needs a little tweaking. What kind of mother was she, to her dragons?

" insubordination is not tolerated."

At the beginning Dany trains her dragons to be totally loyal to her. But when the dragons reach juvenile age:

"This inflexibility can become a challenge as their children grow into their more naturally rebellious adolescent years."

The dragons try to go outside the boundaries (killing children), and she puts the boundaries in place again, by force, if necessary.

"ESTJs' children always know what they need to bring, and most will recognize and appreciate the dedication and hard work their parents brought in return."

Drogo saves Danaerys from a battle, at great risk to himself.


This entire analysis (from Arya to Jon to Daenerys) might be why some MBTI enthusiasts don't take Ni seriously/see it as irrational. But that's another thread

Thanks Maiohmy, another challenge?

I tend to infer what the characters are thinking, turn it all around, look at it from every side.

A good analogy is vacuuming. Operating your own vac means you can see both the big picture and all the little angles and make decisions about where it's important to vacuum. But I just got this Robomaid thing which is supposed to self vacuum. It scans only it's immediate surroundings, not the whole room. It can only analyse what it's already programmed to analyse, and it usually gets itself stuck under the bed. It's little more than a toy.

So the Robomaid goes down beside the furniture, vacuums everything and it can't get itself out. Because it's already done the part where it has to get out and it won't go over old ground. Even a cockroach could get itself out of that space. I watch it for a while in amusement before I go and rescue it.

Do you see how I characterised the Robomaid a little there? The personification of a technical problem? Seems a little pointless for the INTJ. You would describe the issue in terms of the technical limitations of the gadget for the built environment of my unit.

So for MBTI it is the reverse. Instead of personifying a technical problem, we are systemizing a people issue. My analysis here makes about as much sense to the INTJs as a stream of technical reports about my Robomaid would to me. Total gobbledegook.

For instance someone thought I was trying to type Jon Snow. I was not. I was trying to show how when Arya is with her nearest and dearest her true personality comes out. The rest of the time she is being a chameleon. But nobody even got this. I just don't understand how this doesn't make sense. But for your comprehension convenience, I laid out the argument above.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Ni Introverted iNtuiting: Foreseeing implications and likely effects without external data; realizing "what will be"; conceptualizing new ways of seeing things; envisioning transformations; getting an image of profound meaning or far-reaching symbols. Envisioning yourself in an outfit or maybe envisioning yourself being a certain way."

source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

In the first episode of the first season, Arya is sitting doing needlework and obviously hating it. She can hear her brothers practicing archery. Without even being there, she hatches a plan of what to do, and goes down and shows up her brother Bran in front of everyone.

When she is supposed to be behaving herself, Arya practices swordsplay with the butcher's boy not far from the others. This is a situation ripe for the kind of trouble she wants, and she particularly wants to spoil things for Sansa, not because of malice, but because Sansa is an idiot and doesn't realise the truth of things and needs protecting.

By creating this situation she is able to expose the Prince in front of Sansa for who he really is. This is what Ni does. But this child's Ni is lacking in experience:

But there were a couple of unexpected losses, the death of her friend Myka and the wolf Lady, and the loss of her own wolf Nymeria. Arya always provoked and provoked situations but she had never been chastised. She had not encountered the dragon Cercei before. With such severe and irrational consequences, Arya cannot accept her own part in the death of her friend. This internal guilt is what drives her quest for revenge.

yes
07-29-2015, 08:45 PM
That just sounds like a challenge then. She's a magical ESTJ. Consider this opening quote about ESTJs from16 personalities. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)
Awesome. I need another challenger now that Carnal seems to have given up. :p

"ESTJs are representatives of tradition and order, utilizing their understanding of what is right, wrong and socially acceptable to bring families and communities together. Embracing the values of honesty, dedication and dignity, people with the ESTJ personality type are valued for their clear advice and guidance, and they happily lead the way on difficult paths."

Now this is not true of King Robert Baratheon. His understanding of right and wrong is the difference between an empty ale cup and a full one. Nor, obviously is it King Jofferey. But Danaerys is this kind of leader, always aiming to be fair and just and to abolish the slavery that is wrong for the whole community.
And what tradition and order does Dany know? She didn't grow up in Westeros, she grew up traveling throughout the free cities. Throughout slave trading cities. If she were an ESTJ, fair and just to traditions, she ought to be endorsing slave trading, not abolishing it.

But was Danaerys always an ESTJ? What about in the first series where she wasn't a leader?

"ESTJs are also well-known for their loyalty and dedication, but in some ways this is contingent on their respect."

As I said earlier, Danaerys was loyal to her brother, and dedicated, but when he lost her respect what happened?
Loyal or afraid? She had nightmares about him (I don't think that's mentioned in the show). She wasn't dedicated, she was obedient.

I also said earlier that anything to do with her magic has nothing to do with her personality, but maybe that needs a little tweaking. What kind of mother was she, to her dragons?

" insubordination is not tolerated."

At the beginning Dany trains her dragons to be totally loyal to her. But when the dragons reach juvenile age:

"This inflexibility can become a challenge as their children grow into their more naturally rebellious adolescent years."

The dragons try to go outside the boundaries (killing children), and she puts the boundaries in place again, by force, if necessary.
She doesn't put the boundaries in place because she thinks it's appropriate to do so, she puts them in place because her advisers and smallfolk all beg her to. It wasn't a decision she made, but one she accepted.

"ESTJs' children always know what they need to bring, and most will recognize and appreciate the dedication and hard work their parents brought in return."

Drogo saves Danaerys from a battle, at great risk to himself.
You got this one.

INFJfemale
07-30-2015, 12:47 AM
And what tradition and order does Dany know? She didn't grow up in Westeros, she grew up traveling throughout the free cities. Throughout slave trading cities. If she were an ESTJ, fair and just to traditions, she ought to be endorsing slave trading, not abolishing it.


Look at the entire paragraph that I quoted and integrate it together. It is not just about mindlessly following along with established tradition. It's about knowing what's right about those traditions and leading the way on difficult paths. THIS is where Dany's desire to free slaves comes from. The desire to uphold the best moral path for her rule.

Dany's desire to free slaves does not come from Fe. She has no relationship with any of those slaves. She doesn't understand their reality. She makes mistakes by looking only at the grand scheme and not understanding the people.


Loyal or afraid? She had nightmares about him (I don't think that's mentioned in the show). She wasn't dedicated, she was obedient.


Well he was a cowardly bully. Sensible to be afraid if you have no power over him. However at first Dany really believes her brother is the rightful King. She loves him and wants to please him. Loyal or afraid... she is both.



She doesn't put the boundaries in place because she thinks it's appropriate to do so, she puts them in place because her advisers and smallfolk all beg her to. It wasn't a decision she made, but one she accepted.


In the TV series, the father of the dead burned child merely presented the evidence and his grief. She decided. It wasn't much of a choice, but...

Overall I think we're splitting hairs now.

You got this one.

I got more than you think...

Carnal
07-30-2015, 10:09 AM
Awesome. I need another challenger now that Carnal seems to have given .

Funny. I just don't see how else to make the point, we disagree on a fundamental point of his character. It's just odd to me that Roose Bolton is seen as an INTJ while Petyr (often seen ENTJ) is being called an INTJ as well. Their characters are just so vastly different. *shrug*

HankMorgan
07-30-2015, 10:40 AM
Danaerys is an ENFJ, and her brother's an ESTJ. If you contrast their behavior, you can see how they represent different versions of EJ-ness. Arya's an ISTP, as she responds to her environment by taking action. Contrast her with INFJ Varys. As for Littlefinger and Tywin being ENTJ/INTJ/xNTJ/eNTJ/iNTJ, it's tedious because every GoT typing thread is full of the same exact arguments when it could just be considered that they're middle-ish on E/I.

Carnal
07-30-2015, 10:49 AM
Danaerys is an ENFJ, and her brother's an ESTJ. If you contrast their behavior, you can see how they represent different versions of EJ-ness. Arya's an ISTP, as she responds to her environment by taking action. Contrast her with INFJ Varys. As for Littlefinger and Tywin being ENTJ/INTJ/xNTJ/eNTJ/iNTJ, it's tedious because every GoT typing thread is full of the same exact arguments when it could just be considered that they're middle-ish on E/I.

Something I figured out after hammering it to death. Tywin seems less N compared to Littlefinger though. I wouldn't doubt he's an ESTJ.

sacredcashcow
07-30-2015, 12:03 PM
Danaerys is an ENFJ, and her brother's an ESTJ. If you contrast their behavior, you can see how they represent different versions of EJ-ness. Arya's an ISTP, as she responds to her environment by taking action. Contrast her with INFJ Varys. As for Littlefinger and Tywin being ENTJ/INTJ/xNTJ/eNTJ/iNTJ, it's tedious because every GoT typing thread is full of the same exact arguments when it could just be considered that they're middle-ish on E/I.

Actually no.

Viserys is an idiotic, neurotic ENTJ and Dany is an ENFJ that tries really hard to look like an ESTJ so that people will take her seriously as queen.

catzama
07-30-2015, 12:11 PM
Actually no.

Viserys is an idiotic, neurotic ENTJ and Dany is an ENFJ that tries really hard to look like an ESTJ so that people will take her seriously as queen.

Inferior/tert Te maybe?

Carnal
07-30-2015, 12:26 PM
Actually no.

Viserys is an idiotic, neurotic ENTJ and Dany is an ENFJ that tries really hard to look like an ESTJ so that people will take her seriously as queen.

Can you show me an example of Viserys having intuition over sensing? I just think for sure ExTJ.

Distance
07-30-2015, 12:35 PM
Retracted my post. Confused Viserys with Varywhatever. :facepalm:

yes
07-30-2015, 01:05 PM
Look at the entire paragraph that I quoted and integrate it together. It is not just about mindlessly following along with established tradition. It's about knowing what's right about those traditions and leading the way on difficult paths. THIS is where Dany's desire to free slaves comes from. The desire to uphold the best moral path for her rule.
But she doesn't look at what's right about tradition... She outright ignores tradition. The only times she accounts for tradition is when someone asks/reminds her to do so, usually Jorah.

Dany's desire to free slaves does not come from Fe. She has no relationship with any of those slaves. She doesn't understand their reality. She makes mistakes by looking only at the grand scheme and not understanding the people.
You're right in that she isn't using Fe. She isn't using Fi, Te, Ti, Ni, Ne, Si or Se, either. She's guided by the Will of the Author, not a mental function.

Well he was a cowardly bully. Sensible to be afraid if you have no power over him. However at first Dany really believes her brother is the rightful King. She loves him and wants to please him. Loyal or afraid... she is both.
Loyalty = afraid to displease?

Sorry, I don't see any form of attachment between her and Viserys that isn't negative. I'll be rereading the first book again soon, though, so I'll keep an eye out and see if I missed any evidence of it. It's been a while since I've read them/watched the first season, perhaps it's just been too long.

In the TV series, the father of the dead burned child merely presented the evidence and his grief. She decided. It wasn't much of a choice, but...
I don't remember how it was done in the show... In the books it wasn't her motion. Then again, maybe I'm just forgetting.

Overall I think we're splitting hairs now.
Possibly. I still stand by my original statement--She doesn't have an MBTI type because she's used for, and developed through, plot directions, not through genuine character development. This changes a bit in the 5th book (If you read the books, you'll notice that GRRM suddenly begins doing proper character development starting with the 4th books; probably what takes him so long to write them nowadays).

INFJfemale
07-30-2015, 07:13 PM
Danaerys is an ENFJ, and her brother's an ESTJ. If you contrast their behavior, you can see how they represent different versions of EJ-ness. Arya's an ISTP, as she responds to her environment by taking action. Contrast her with INFJ Varys. As for Littlefinger and Tywin being ENTJ/INTJ/xNTJ/eNTJ/iNTJ, it's tedious because every GoT typing thread is full of the same exact arguments when it could just be considered that they're middle-ish on E/I.

Actually no.

Viserys is an idiotic, neurotic ENTJ and Dany is an ENFJ that tries really hard to look like an ESTJ so that people will take her seriously as queen.

ENFJ lead with Fe, and Dany has no Fe at all. She even has to have sex lessons. Fe characters have a natural ability to communicate with their partners. Look at Margery. Sure, she has more experience than Dany, but look at Podrick (Tyrion's squire).

For the last time, Arya is not an ISTP and she does not respond to the environment by taking action. She responds to what is in her mind and when she gets the opportunity.
If Arya was an S type she would be roaming the countryside on her horse with a bow and arrow taking pot shots at her enemies. But Arya is not an S type. She makes plans, and sometimes the details are realised on the spot.

Arya knows her enemies inside out. The one who killed the boy with the broken leg, the one who stole her Needle - she catches up with him and kills him in the manner in which he killed her friend. To the amatuers this looks like a lucky coincidence. To those who know how Ni works, it was a stroke of brilliance. Her Se is her inferior function, it answers to the other functions first. The reason she lets herself be captured by The Hound is because he is a very effective weapon. Get it? She is not responding randomly to her environment.

davai
07-30-2015, 07:26 PM
If Arya was an S type she would be roaming the countryside on her horse with a bow and arrow taking pot shots at her enemies.

Yeah...your argument started out poorly and just hit rock bottom with this line. Another vote for ISTP here.

catzama
07-30-2015, 07:28 PM
For the last time, Arya is not an ISTP and she does not respond to the environment by taking action. She responds to what is in her mind and when she gets the opportunity.
If Arya was an S type she would be roaming the countryside on her horse with a bow and arrow taking pot shots at her enemies. But Arya is not an S type. She makes plans, and sometimes the details are realised on the spot.

Wait, what?

Se people make plans too lol.

INFJfemale
07-30-2015, 07:28 PM
Yeah...your argument started out poorly and just hit rock bottom with this line. Another vote for ISTP here.

At least I made an argument, unlike you who just hit 'unlike'.

sacredcashcow
07-30-2015, 09:17 PM
Can you show me an example of Viserys having intuition over sensing? I just think for sure ExTJ.

From what I've learned about Ni-Se loop..Viserys displays the symptoms pretty well. He says he would let the entire dothraki hoard **** Dany in order to be King. That sounds like a typical XXTJ villain thing to say. The reason he seems Se > Si is because of his sx/so (enneagram) nature. There is almost no thought to self preservation. He just jumps in and that's sort of his dysfunctional Te. Risk taking nature and all that.

---------- Post added 07-30-2015 at 09:19 PM ----------

Inferior/tert Te maybe?

I always wonder if (in terms of functions) they can be in different orders. Because I would guess that for him we are looking at Se Ni Te Fi. (Ni-Se loop)

byte me
07-30-2015, 09:32 PM
At least I made an argument, unlike you who just hit 'unlike'.

What you did is far more dangerous.

INFJfemale
07-30-2015, 10:53 PM
What you did is far more dangerous.

Dangerous how?

byte me
07-30-2015, 11:35 PM
Dangerous how?

Because it is misleading.

Maiohmy
07-31-2015, 01:27 AM
Because it is misleading.

And unfounded. Don't forget that.

Rumpelstiltskin
07-31-2015, 02:08 AM
#INFJMysticalMasterRace

This entire analysis (from Arya to Jon to Daenerys) might be why some MBTI enthusiasts don't take Ni seriously/see it as irrational. But that's another thread :laugh:

Spot on. No wonder these function supremacists are running around.

INFJfemale, your unashamed boasting about the intricacies your own type (using the definite article) comes across as terribly vain, and your impression of Ni is palpably off the mark and in need of revision. Sorry. Someone had to say it.

INFJfemale
07-31-2015, 04:03 AM
Spot on. No wonder these function supremacists are running around.

INFJfemale, your unashamed boasting about the intricacies your own type (using the definite article) comes across as terribly vain, and your impression of Ni is palpably off the mark and in need of revision. Sorry. Someone had to say it.

Does it? I probably thought this song was about me..

---------- Post added 07-31-2015 at 06:27 AM ----------

Alright, jokes aside. People are being mean. I'm trying my best to explain my ideas here, and people are trying to shoot me down by making statements without any argument at all. The reason I use myself as an example is to show what is going on inside her head because this is invisible from the outside as you view the TV show. And yeah, I like Ni. This shows good self esteem.

Now I never meant to insult a sensor. Riding a horse and taking pot shots is a great plan and I am in awe of people with these abilities. It is just a different type of thinking.

So anyone who assumed I meant insult and who started on the ad hominem can take a good look at themselves. I never said anything insulting and there is nothing wrong with being interested in your own type. I am also interested in other types as evidenced by being on an INTJ forum when I am INFJ.

---------- Post added 07-31-2015 at 06:52 AM ----------

Also, thanks to those people who participated in this discussion with me. It was an enjoyable discussion and I do appreciate you engaging with me.

davai
07-31-2015, 07:59 AM
Riding a horse and taking pot shots is a great plan and I am in awe of people with these abilities. It is just a different type of thinking.

Look at the implications in the previous paragraph...


For the last time, Arya is not an ISTP and she does not respond to the environment by taking action. She responds to what is in her mind and when she gets the opportunity.
If Arya was an S type she would be roaming the countryside on her horse with a bow and arrow taking pot shots at her enemies. But Arya is not an S type. She makes plans, and sometimes the details are realised on the spot.

You're implying that ISTP's (and Sensors in general) don't think, that they're essentially automatons responding to environmental cues. Sensors also don't make plans (presumably because they don't respond to what's in their mind?), so they aimlessly ride around like an imbecile shooting at anything in range.

Seems like you're trying to backtrack from these comments now, which is just as well, since they have nothing to do with any interpretation of MBTI (do show us a source if i'm wrong), and further i think you're forgetting that the most skilled/frequent people in things like special ops are probably ISTPs (there are sources for this), so why they suddenly turn into 'tards on horses shooting at random stuff, while they should be taking advice on military maneuvers from an INFJ (who let's face it, are probably more likely to externalize their rage in the crude and unsophisticated way you've outlined) is beyond me.

Rumpelstiltskin
07-31-2015, 09:19 AM
ENFJ lead with Fe, and Dany has no Fe at all. She even has to have sex lessons. Fe characters have a natural ability to communicate with their partners. Look at Margery. Sure, she has more experience than Dany, but look at Podrick (Tyrion's squire).

You heard it here first guys - Fe types are better in bed.

And you wonder why no one is willing to take you seriously. :rolleyes:

For the last time, Arya is not an ISTP

oh, ok

yes
07-31-2015, 09:25 AM
You heard it here first guys - Fe types are better in bed.
Not better... They just have a starting advantage.

EchoFlame
07-31-2015, 10:21 AM
I think Varys is a type one INTJ. Although his true motivations are not known yet (though can be guessed) I view him as a reformer but not in an INFJ sense. He is a long-term planner, an introvert and very logical. Like a true INTJ, he wishes to rule from the shadows, but will work to replace incompetent rulers. I don't remember a single time when reading the books or watching the show that I thought, "What a feeler."

Why did he save Tyrion?

I didnt do it for you. I did it for the Seven Kingdoms, the Spider admits to Tyrion.

When the Imp notes that he would never be the savior of the Seven Kingdoms, Varys says, I dont believe in saviors. I believe men of talent have a part to play in the war to come.

I could be wrong as our information is limited but I identify with Varys the most of all the characters.

The man finds information to be worth more than gold, and all the information he acquires is for a purpose and not just general interest (not INTP). He found Ned competent and worked to save his life. He had not planned for Joffrey's outburst. A weakness of some INTJ's is we sometimes forget to plan for when people act illogical, and besides, saving Ned was an incidental thing, not extremely vital to his plans.

I think it is characteristic of type one INTJs to use their INTJness for good causes. Examine the Spider, he is a mastermind out for (in my opinion) the big picture greater good while also looking out for himself (priority one).

INFJfemale
07-31-2015, 09:08 PM
Look at the implications in the previous paragraph...



You're implying that ISTP's (and Sensors in general) don't think, that they're essentially automatons responding to environmental cues. Sensors also don't make plans (presumably because they don't respond to what's in their mind?), so they aimlessly ride around like an imbecile shooting at anything in range.

Seems like you're trying to backtrack from these comments now, which is just as well, since they have nothing to do with any interpretation of MBTI (do show us a source if i'm wrong), and further i think you're forgetting that the most skilled/frequent people in things like special ops are probably ISTPs (there are sources for this), so why they suddenly turn into 'tards on horses shooting at random stuff, while they should be taking advice on military maneuvers from an INFJ (who let's face it, are probably more likely to externalize their rage in the crude and unsophisticated way you've outlined) is beyond me.

Okay. The bolded. Did I ever say anything like "Like an imbecile?" Those are your words, not mine. This is what I call 'projection'.

I am not backtracking. I can't believe I even have to specify that I didn't mean that. All I said was a sensor would approach it differently.

There is an abundance of arrogance every day on this forum. I have to read all the time that feeling types are all emotional and stupid. And now I'm accused of doing the same thing.

And for what? I mean Legolas is my biggest hero. I know you can't type an elf, but he does a lot of cool stuff on horseback with a bow.

I said "IF Arya were a sensor she would be riding around the country side taking pot shots at her enemy." That might actually be a more sensible approach. It's not how she thinks.

Maiohmy
07-31-2015, 09:25 PM
Okay. The bolded. Did I ever say anything like "Like an imbecile?" Those are your words, not mine. This is what I call 'projection'.

I am not backtracking. I can't believe I even have to specify that I didn't mean that. All I said was a sensor would approach it differently.

There is an abundance of arrogance every day on this forum. I have to read all the time that feeling types are all emotional and stupid. And now I'm accused of doing the same thing.

And for what? I mean Legolas is my biggest hero. I know you can't type an elf, but he does a lot of cool stuff on horseback with a bow.

I said "IF Arya were a sensor she would be riding around the country side taking pot shots at her enemy." That might actually be a more sensible approach. It's not how she thinks.

She's not a Ni Dom. Your not helping your fellow "feelers" out here. Your typing of Arya is what I would call projection.

INFJfemale
07-31-2015, 10:02 PM
She's not a Ni Dom. Your not helping your fellow "feelers" out here. Your typing of Arya is what I would call projection.

:laugh: Yes it probably is projection, but not because I used myself as an example. It doesn't seem as though my fellow feelers need any help :P

yes
08-01-2015, 05:42 AM
I think Varys is a type one INTJ. Although his true motivations are not known yet (though can be guessed) I view him as a reformer but not in an INFJ sense. He is a long-term planner, an introvert and very logical. Like a true INTJ, he wishes to rule from the shadows, but will work to replace incompetent rulers. I don't remember a single time when reading the books or watching the show that I thought, "What a feeler."

Why did he save Tyrion?




I could be wrong as our information is limited but I identify with Varys the most of all the characters.

The man finds information to be worth more than gold, and all the information he acquires is for a purpose and not just general interest (not INTP). He found Ned competent and worked to save his life. He had not planned for Joffrey's outburst. A weakness of some INTJ's is we sometimes forget to plan for when people act illogical, and besides, saving Ned was an incidental thing, not extremely vital to his plans.

I think it is characteristic of type one INTJs to use their INTJness for good causes. Examine the Spider, he is a mastermind out for (in my opinion) the big picture greater good while also looking out for himself (priority one).
I can challenge this... But only if you read the books. Have you?

EchoFlame
08-01-2015, 08:14 AM
I can challenge this... But only if you read the books. Have you?

I read them two years ago but I don't remember every detail. Spoiler tag it for everyone else though.

yes
08-01-2015, 09:15 AM
I read them two years ago but I don't remember every detail. Spoiler tag it for everyone else though.
Spoiler tags? Nah. Come April we may be residing in a horrid world where book readers will be flooded with possible spoilers from show watchers. I expect there will be no mercy when that time comes, and so I chose to strike first now.:beadyeyes:

We know from Dance of Dragons that Varys and Ilyrio have been planning on putting Rhaegor's son Aegon on the throne, and their actions to date have been to leading up to such an eventuality.

If Varys was truly interested in ruling from the shadows, or if he was interested in a well functioning monarchy, I expect he would have been content with Robert as king. Robert cared so little, and his choices of Hand of King were so practical, that he could easily cooperate and/our pull strings so as to bring about his envisioned Utopia. His only real agenda would be to disarm Littlefinger and prevent Cercei from bringing things to ruin.

But he doesn't try to endorse Robert's reign. Instead, he acts behind the scenes, letting things fall apart while he moves his pieces into place, guiding Westeros towards... Another Targaryen monarch? Why? The world doesn't seem all that much changed since Robert took over. Why should anyone care if a Targaryen is back?

Unless Varys considers it a cause, an attitude much more commonin INFJs than in INTJs. While Varys has a spectacular Ni to see the future and plan for it, his aspirations and methods are significantly more Fe based: He champions a cause that he believes in, rather than one that is strictly more pragmatic, and he uses Fe to read and manipulate people to keep the realm in relative chaos (though he gets plenty of help in that regard).

EchoFlame
08-02-2015, 07:12 PM
I think Varys was content with Robert, Robert did not care for small council matters and gave them the run of the country. But he knew Robert would die eventually and the throne would go to Joffrey. He knew the Lannisters would be terrible leaders and that Cersei's/Joffrey's management would mean the diminished status of his own influence and that it would make the country unstable. I think out of all of the noble houses, he truly believes that his old standby, the Targaryens, would be most likely to rule in a manner that would bring order. He kept them alive "just in-case". However, he was wise enough to see that Tyrion would be an asset to the Targaryens, and that he was stable.

When an INTJ decides firmly on a solution (Targaryens), they pour everything into it until it becomes a reality with unstoppable determination. Plus, Stannis probably won't tolerate him, but the Targaryens would thank him for their lives.


Eddard: Tell me, Lord Varys, who do you truly serve?

Varys: Why, the realm, my good lord, how ever could you doubt that? I swear it by my lost manhood. I serve the realm, and the realm needs peace.

As I stated, I could be wrong. I think the last two books will reveal more about Varys to the point if we can see. I don't understand why book version isn't supporting Dany first though. He must know the dragons are a formidable advantage and you think he side with the winning Targaryen. Unless he means to join them or something, whenever Dany gets her head out of the sand.