Why we’re most certainly apes

[Moriarty]

Instead of continuing the general evolution thread, I decided to create a thread of my own that dealt specifically with the common ancestry between humans and our fellow apes. In my opinion, this more than anything is the burning question and point of greatest contention when it comes to evolutionary models, because to “prove” a common ancestry between two species would lay to rest the question of speciation once and for all.

This thread is aimed at a specific audience. I intend this information to be read and processed by people who are not quite sure what to make of the developments in evolutionary theory. People who may be undecided because they have not really been presented with the resources to make an educated decision, or people like myself, who have been out of the educational system for a few years. (Maybe you’re just like me and recently have gone back for something new.) If you’re someone who likes to see the evidence for yourself and draw your own conclusions, this thread is for you.

If, however, you are suffering from a faith-based forcefield that will likely prevent you from even honestly researching the evidence except to validate a preconceived belief, this thread is not for you. If you wish to save yourself some valuable time, then stop reading now.

Just earlier today, I presented a scientific paper that appears later in this thread to a creationist friend of mine. He read it some time during the course of the afternoon and returned it to me, and with some disdain, called me "monkey man". We had a laugh and discussed some of the points detailed below. At some point, he lost interest because he waved his hand and proclaimed, "I'll just wait for Jesus to tell me what happened." If you're my creationist friend and you happen to have broken another set of insurmountable odds by reading this post, stop reading.

Preamble aside, I’m a pretty skeptical guy (at least since my late teens). I’ve always had a hunch, but nothing more, that the notion of common ancestry between humans and apes was plausible. However, I never gave it any serious thought until a few years ago. I can say that I’m not swayed by the evidence at this point. Au contraire. I am absolutely convinced by it, faith not required. Here, in ascending order and in my personal opinion, are the 5 most compelling bits of evidence for our common ancestry with the Chimpanzee, as evidenced by commonalities. I've included some educational or entertaining links with each point.

1. Common behavior. This is pretty much a given, so I won’t expand on what’s obvious. Humans and chimps behave in ways that are very, very similar. This alone, however, is hardly compelling evidence.

Chimps behave as we behave (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

2. Common anatomy. We’re getting warmer! When I was a kid, I had several books published by the Audubon Society. They were field guides for identifying plants, trees, insects and reptiles. In order for the flowchart system of identification used in those books to work properly, they made use of the phylogenetic tree. “If it has 4 legs, go to page…” “If it has a tail, go to page…” This process narrows down the possibilities to the exact species in no time, and would not work without physical genetic similarities brought to you by common ancestry. Other than the obvious common anatomical traits between humans and apes which are obvious, check out this neat comparative anatomy guide presented by the Smithsonian Instutute: Cool Guide (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

3. Fossil Records. What can fossil records really tell us about the global evolutionary process? If you don’t know but would like to, read this (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

If you’re specifically interested in fossils classified as Hominids, look here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

4. The real evidence of common ancestry: genetic evidence. This, by far, lays the issue to rest. Since mapping the more than 3 billion chemical base pairs of the human genome followed by the chimp genome a few years later, there really is no longer any question of our close relationship (more than 95% commonality) with chimps. Stay tuned, though. The best is yet to come.

The Human Genome (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)...our entire DNA sequence mapped out.

Reader’s Digest version of the Second Human Chromosome here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.(human)).

Interesting news article (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) after the mapping of the chimp genome.
The fresh unraveling of chimpanzee DNA allows an unprecedented gene-to-gene comparison with the human genome, mapped in 2001, and makes plain the evolutionary processes through which chimps and humans arose from a common ancestor about 6 million years ago.


5. Perhaps the above was not compelling? Being a skeptic myself, I understand completely. Maybe you need something less likely to be coincidence?

Let’s say you lay a line of 3 billion marbles. (That’s 3 billion, which is the approximate number of chemical base pairs in both human and chimp DNA). What, in your estimation, would be the odds that both you and a friend would randomly choose the exact same marble? Pretty slim? What if you randomly chose the same two? The same three? Four? Wow, slim chance, right?

Ok, what if you were told to randomly choose 98,000 out of the 3 billion marbles, and discovered you and your friend had chosen the exact same ones? Wow! But wait...what is you had a few friends instead of just one, and you all chose identically? I don’t like to call this proof, because as I’ve said before, the Cosmos has a way of making seemingly insurmountable odds very small, even odds like 1 in 2x10^138 against this being a mere coincidence. (Ok, maybe not even I am prepared to consider a coincidence of that magnitude likely.)

Enter the Endogenous Retrovirus- our little nucleic historian:

What's an ERV? (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Why are ERVs important? (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Human beings and most great apes share the same viral DNA at the exact same base pair locations. It’s no coincidence…it’s a genetic trait.

If at this point you remain unconvinced, my hat's off to you for being an even greater skeptic than I could ever hope to become. You probably don't believe in anything, which is even less than I do!

[Monte314]

This looks like great stuff... but my "shields are up"!

[comet]

I don't have a problem in sharing a common ancestor with the Apes, it makes perfect sense to me that they are our "anthropological cousins".

I suspect your creationist friend will be waiting a hell of a long time for Jesus to tell him what really happened Moriarty.

By the way thanks for starting the thread, I'm going to have a look around the links you provided tonight.

[Sara27]

"The Great Ape Project" is a great resource. It shows how we are part of the Great Ape family using the points Moriarty listed. It's a collection of essays. Contributors include Dawkins, Goodall, and Singer. It is also an activism book trying to confer legal rights to non-human Great Apes, just so you know.

"The Great Ape Project: An Idea, A Book, An Organization

"The idea is founded upon undeniable scientific proof that non-human great apes share more than genetically similar DNA with their human counterparts. They enjoy a rich emotional and cultural existence in which they experience emotions such as fear, anxiety and happiness. They share the intellectual capacity to create and use tools, learn and teach other languages. They remember their past and plan for their future. It is in recognition of these and other morally significant qualities that the Great Ape Project was founded. The Great Ape Project seeks to end the unconscionable treatment of our nearest living relatives by obtaining for non-human great apes the fundamental moral and legal protections of the right to life, the freedom from arbitrary deprivation of liberty, and protection from torture." (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

[TheLastMohican]

Reposting this link, because it is so well-explained (and again, please excuse the deceptively obnoxious title):

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[Moriarty]

Thanks for providing the extra links.

I avoided sources that had an apparent partisan slant and youtube videos in my original post. I get annoyed when counter arguments are linked to sites like darwin is roasting in hell haha dot com. I tend to overlook any possible relevant info cited from a source like that so I did my best to keep things credible, professional and neutral. I don't wanna force anyone to put their shields up.

I certainly welcome others to expand upon what's been provided and, if they have evidence (proper evidence from a proper source, that is) to the contrary, post it up too. Honestly, tho, my mind's made up. I'm convinced. My shields are up too, I suppose.

[azelismia]

I think it's extraordinarily clear from behaviours and the fossil record.. then when you have the types of behaviours in common between apes and man, I don't even see how it's disputable that we're related.

[Caramel]

I would like to add this article to your topic. (Also see the 'related stories' on that page)

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This article basicly says that allmost all of the genes chimpanzee's and humans have are the same (or very simular), but that the difference primarily lies in the regulation of our genes.

And this fits perfectly with chromosone re-ordering, such as crossing overs, duplication, inversion (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), and fusion (such as of chromosone 2, as you mentioned).

Re-ordering chromosones causes genes and their regulating promotor sequences to mix up, sothat some genes may end up behind a different promotor (causing genes to be active when they're not supposed to be active, or inactive when they are supposed to be active, which gives them a new biological function), some promotors may end up next to other promotors (causing over regulation, which increases the strength of the existing function), etc. This is what makes evolution possible. =)

[lancelot]

Instead of continuing the general evolution thread, I decided to create a thread of my own that dealt specifically with the common ancestry between humans and our fellow apes. In my opinion, this more than anything is the burning question and point of greatest contention when it comes to evolutionary models, because to “prove” a common ancestry between two species would lay to rest the question of speciation once and for all.

This thread is aimed at a specific audience. I intend this information to be read and processed by people who are not quite sure what to make of the developments in evolutionary theory. People who may be undecided because they have not really been presented with the resources to make an educated decision, or people like myself, who have been out of the educational system for a few years. (Maybe you’re just like me and recently have gone back for something new.) If you’re someone who likes to see the evidence for yourself and draw your own conclusions, this thread is for you.

If, however, you are suffering from a faith-based forcefield that will likely prevent you from even honestly researching the evidence except to validate a preconceived belief, this thread is not for you. If you wish to save yourself some valuable time, then stop reading now.

Just earlier today, I presented a scientific paper that appears later in this thread to a creationist friend of mine. He read it some time during the course of the afternoon and returned it to me, and with some disdain, called me "monkey man". We had a laugh and discussed some of the points detailed below. At some point, he lost interest because he waved his hand and proclaimed, "I'll just wait for Jesus to tell me what happened." If you're my creationist friend and you happen to have broken another set of insurmountable odds by reading this post, stop reading.

Preamble aside, I’m a pretty skeptical guy (at least since my late teens). I’ve always had a hunch, but nothing more, that the notion of common ancestry between humans and apes was plausible. However, I never gave it any serious thought until a few years ago. I can say that I’m not swayed by the evidence at this point. Au contraire. I am absolutely convinced by it, faith not required. Here, in ascending order and in my personal opinion, are the 5 most compelling bits of evidence for our common ancestry with the Chimpanzee, as evidenced by commonalities. I've included some educational or entertaining links with each point.

1. Common behavior. This is pretty much a given, so I won’t expand on what’s obvious. Humans and chimps behave in ways that are very, very similar. This alone, however, is hardly compelling evidence.

Chimps behave as we behave (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

2. Common anatomy. We’re getting warmer! When I was a kid, I had several books published by the Audubon Society. They were field guides for identifying plants, trees, insects and reptiles. In order for the flowchart system of identification used in those books to work properly, they made use of the phylogenetic tree. “If it has 4 legs, go to page…” “If it has a tail, go to page…” This process narrows down the possibilities to the exact species in no time, and would not work without physical genetic similarities brought to you by common ancestry. Other than the obvious common anatomical traits between humans and apes which are obvious, check out this neat comparative anatomy guide presented by the Smithsonian Instutute: Cool Guide (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

3. Fossil Records. What can fossil records really tell us about the global evolutionary process? If you don’t know but would like to, read this (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

If you’re specifically interested in fossils classified as Hominids, look here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

4. The real evidence of common ancestry: genetic evidence. This, by far, lays the issue to rest. Since mapping the more than 3 billion chemical base pairs of the human genome followed by the chimp genome a few years later, there really is no longer any question of our close relationship (more than 95% commonality) with chimps. Stay tuned, though. The best is yet to come.

The Human Genome (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)...our entire DNA sequence mapped out.

Reader’s Digest version of the Second Human Chromosome here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.(human)).

Interesting news article (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) after the mapping of the chimp genome.



5. Perhaps the above was not compelling? Being a skeptic myself, I understand completely. Maybe you need something less likely to be coincidence?

Let’s say you lay a line of 3 billion marbles. (That’s 3 billion, which is the approximate number of chemical base pairs in both human and chimp DNA). What, in your estimation, would be the odds that both you and a friend would randomly choose the exact same marble? Pretty slim? What if you randomly chose the same two? The same three? Four? Wow, slim chance, right?

Ok, what if you were told to randomly choose 98,000 out of the 3 billion marbles, and discovered you and your friend had chosen the exact same ones? Wow! But wait...what is you had a few friends instead of just one, and you all chose identically? I don’t like to call this proof, because as I’ve said before, the Cosmos has a way of making seemingly insurmountable odds very small, even odds like 1 in 2x10^138 against this being a mere coincidence. (Ok, maybe not even I am prepared to consider a coincidence of that magnitude likely.)

Enter the Endogenous Retrovirus- our little nucleic historian:

What's an ERV? (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Why are ERVs important? (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Human beings and most great apes share the same viral DNA at the exact same base pair locations. It’s no coincidence…it’s a genetic trait.

If at this point you remain unconvinced, my hat's off to you for being an even greater skeptic than I could ever hope to become. You probably don't believe in anything, which is even less than I do!

Hello is there anyone out there?

[Moriarty]

Hello is there anyone out there?

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

@Caramel: Nice contribution. Thank you.

[lancelot]

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

@Caramel: Nice contribution. Thank you.

When it comes to evolution, people focuss too much on physical characteristics, I mean how something looks has little to do with
how it thinks, or acts. If an ape were to walk upright that doesn't make it human. In other words, there really is no record of apes thinking abstractly, or the kind of reasoning associated with humans. For example cave paintings, funerials, and a belief in an after life were only produced by humans.

The tool making of apes is very crude, using a twing to stick in a tree to collect ants for example. My dog made a tool, he used a frisby to pick up a ball.

When we see evidence of art work and abstract thinking as mentioned above, I believe we are looking at humans, not apes.

[thod]

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[lancelot]

Hello is there anyone out there?

This question was not intended to be derogatory, i just had not heard from anyone for a long time, I don't know enough about biology to really comment on your post.

I do believe, the reasons people believe, or don't believe in God, have little to do with science.

Many great scientists believe in God, and many non scientist don't believe in God!

[azelismia]

Lance, maybe you should read more about the subject.. Chimps and other primates do use tools and have demonstrated abstract thinking abilities.

furthermore, do a search for KOKO and the kitten.

[lancelot]

Lance, maybe you should read more about the subject.. Chimps and other primates do use tools and have demonstrated abstract thinking abilities.

furthermore, do a search for KOKO and the kitten.

Yeah, maybe I will research it. Thank you.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Hey. Any info. on the possible common anscestor? Any good sites or reads about this? I really wonder why nothing has been found.

[lancelot]

Yeah, maybe I will research it. Thank you.

I have seen the work done with apes for some time, in college when studing sign languae and in antropology classes. I don't really believe the apes are using a true language as we understand language. In my opioion it's more of a gesturing system based on preformance and reward. The signs are poorly formed and the syntax rules are not followed.

I am a certified sign language interpreter, I use both ASL, and PSE and was not able to understand anything the apes were saying. I realize they are apes, but the signs to me were not recognizable.

Basically I don't see the components that make up a true language. For example koko's ability to communicate is based on about 1,000 signs or gestures. Her ability to construct sentences should be infinite as it is with a true language; also her gestures and signs do not appear to be rule governed.

When a true language is used, each sentence is constructed new for the first time, this means every thing we say is said for the first time.

I only see a type of gesturing system with KoKo. The system of gestures is smilar to my dog wanted to play fetch and dropping the ball near my feet.

Neither chompski or Pinker from what I have read see Koko using a true language.

It's just my opinion, I don't know everything!

BA. Linguistics, Minor anthropology.

[Caramel]

Official human/chimp genome comparison article from Nature, 2005:

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More (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) can be found (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) in Pubmed (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), so if you Pubmed access you can check it there.

And look at this nice tree: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Its a phylogenitic tree generated from all currently sequenced genomes. It shows nicely that humans and chimps are the closest related species (out of the currently sequenced genomes) as we ofcourse know.

*The species names are in Latin, but if you hoover your mouse over it, a popup will show the normal English name plus a picture of that species.

**Ah this is so much fun to research. ^_^

(EDIT: Gorilla != Chimp.)

[azelismia]

but koko has made up words to get across meaning, the people who work with her can certainly understand her. She has alerted them to medical issues she has had. She taught the male gorilla who lived with her how to communicate as well. Because you personally can't understand her, there is no validity to the research they have done with her?

Sure..

[Caramel]

Azelismia, do you happen to know more (sources of) free information on Koko? Research articles perhaps? There are some links to books on the Koko.org website, but they cost moneys.

[lancelot]

but koko has made up words to get across meaning, the people who work with her can certainly understand her. She has alerted them to medical issues she has had. She taught the male gorilla who lived with her how to communicate as well. Because you personally can't understand her, there is no validity to the research they have done with her?

Sure..

One of the words I remember from years ago was "Water bird" for swan, and I know their are others. Animals do communicate, I am just not convinced they can construct sentences explaining 'who did what to whom!'

I need to see some clips of the apes, chimps communicating; I'll check it out and see what's up!

[Moriarty]

Hey. Any info. on the possible common anscestor? Any good sites or reads about this? I really wonder why nothing has been found.

It's in the links I provided. Ardipithecus ramidus is (unless new info has surfaced) our oldest common ancestral fossil as of now, which dates back to about 4.4 million years. By "our", I mean in the hominid branch, which includes gorillas, chimps and humans.

We can, however, trace our ancestry further back to the divergence of old and new world monkeys with the emergence of the Proconsulids, which dates to about 22.5 million years.





Moriarty added to this post, 2 minutes and 49 seconds later...

I need to see some clips of the apes, chimps communicating; I'll check it out and see what's up!

An adult chimp has the mental acuity of a 2 year old human, give or take for "gifted" chimps. ;)

Don't expect Hellen Keller reciting Shakespeare.

[comet]

Just a quick question, when were apes such as chimpanzee's and gorillas reclassified from the Pongidae family into the Hominidae family?

I like the fact that we share similar social structures as our chimp and gorilla cousins. Also morality, I think it's evident that these animals have a sense of that too.

It's interesting to note that the other apes have an extra set of genes to homo sapiens, I saw something about this just the other day before this thread was created.

Of all the hominid species, I really wish Homo Neanderthalensis had never become extinct. I think they would have been a most interesting group to get to know. Sadly they became extinct in Asia around 50,000 years ago, and in Europe approximately 30,000 years ago. This hominid really is our closest, albeit extinct, relative.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Just a quick question, when were apes such as chimpanzee's and gorillas reclassified from the Pongidae family into the Hominidae family?

I like the fact that we share similar social structures as our chimp and gorilla cousins. Also morality, I think it's evident that these animals have a sense of that too.

It's interesting to note that the other apes have an extra set of genes to homo sapiens, I saw something about this just the other day before this thread was created.

Of all the hominid species, I really wish Homo Neanderthalensis had never become extinct. I think they would have been a most interesting group to get to know. Sadly they became extinct in Asia around 50,000 years ago, and in Europe approximately 30,000 years ago. This hominid really is our closest, albeit extinct, relative.
It would be ultra cool to have another human species! Think of it.........we would never have had to make up 'race' in order to support prejudism because there would be a built in prejudism based on species differences. No having to scientifically prove biological differences..........wouldn't it be great?

[comet]

It's interesting to note that the other apes have an extra set of genes to homo sapiens, I saw something about this just the other day before this thread was created.

Opps!! I meant to say an extra set of chromosomes, not genes.

I found an article that explains it all.

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[the human iPod]

I like the fact that we share similar social structures as our chimp and gorilla cousins. Also morality, I think it's evident that these animals have a sense of that too.

Uh. Don't chimpanzees engage in turf wars, and the losers of those turf wars get eaten? o_O

[void]

Uh. Don't chimpanzees engage in turf wars, and the losers of those turf wars get eaten? o_O

Wait, I thought the losers are first force-fed the piles of excrement flung by the winners. Then they are eaten.

[Mozzes]

Uh. Don't chimpanzees engage in turf wars, and the losers of those turf wars get eaten? o_O

If anything you're proving the point. In conflict humans can be far more barbarous than any animal I can think of.

[Caramel]

Of all the hominid species, I really wish Homo Neanderthalensis had never become extinct. I think they would have been a most interesting group to get to know. Sadly they became extinct in Asia around 50,000 years ago, and in Europe approximately 30,000 years ago. This hominid really is our closest, albeit extinct, relative.

There are some scientists who believe that the Neaderthal never became extinct, but in stead mated with the Cro-Magnon (us), adding its genes to our genepool. Because about 5% of our genes aren't accounted for if you look back to our ancestors in a straight line, so they must have come from somewhere else.*

So far its been impossible to fully answer this, because the Neanderthal genome has only been partially sequenced.

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The group who sequenced parts of the Neanderthal genome found that our genomes are 99.5-percent identical, but they found no evidence for crossbreeding so far.

They did find, when they compared Neanderthal to human and chimpanzee genome, that at multiple locations the Neanderthal DNA sequences matched chimpanzee DNA but not human.

I don't know what to think about that yet, cause in my opinion, without the entire genome sequenced, its too early to tell anything conclusive. But it sure is interesting. =)

*That, or their method of calculating is wrong.

[lancelot]

An adult chimp has the mental acuity of a 2 year old human, give or take for "gifted" chimps.

Don't expect Hellen Keller reciting Shakespeare.

I can't comment on the mental acuity of some chimps, (dogs, dolphins are also smart).

Animals lack the ability for language, I guess it's our ability for language, that sets us apart from animals.

Koko, and others haven't convinced me. It might be worth while to interview Patterson herself; I don't really see the results she is claiming. Patterson has seriously bonded with Koko, and it's possible she is misinterpreting the results of her own studies(not saying this to be mean).

I think too many people are just accepting the results based on patterson's interpretation of what is going on. Patterson speaks for Koko and it's left up to the observer to accept or reject the results.

You might want to look at the transcribed conversations, I looked at one and felt Koko's answers were inchoherent or non sequitur.

If humans are truely derived from apes, the ability for language(as humans know it) should be represented in the apes.

If I am wrong about language and apes, then
it doesn't matter if Koko knows ASL or not.

[Brutananadilewski]

If humans are truely derived from apes, the ability for language(as humans know it) should be represented in the apes.

We didn't derive from apes, we are apes, and we share a common ancestor with other ape species.

There is no logical reason to posit that language should be represented in apes. It is entirely conceivable, and quite propable, that language in our species didn't develop until well after our species had split from the common ancestor. There's no basis, other than personal reasons, for assuming that the basics of language must have been present before our species started evolving along its own path.





Brutananadilewski added to this post, 3 minutes and 32 seconds later...


Animals lack the ability for language, I guess it's our ability for language, that sets us apart from animals.


Animals lack the ability for language as we use and understand it, but I'll arugue that whales "singing" or dogs barking, or what have you, is language itself. Meaning is being conveyed through actions or sounds between individuals in a community. Whether we understand it or not, or whether it's complex or not doesn't bely the fact that its still a form of language.

[lancelot]

If humans are truely derived from apes, the ability for language(as humans know it) should be represented in the apes.

We didn't derive from apes, we are apes, and we share a common ancestor with other ape species.

There is no logical reason to posit that language should be represented in apes. It is entirely conceivable, and quite propable, that language in our species didn't develop until well after our species had split from the common ancestor. There's no basis, other than personal reasons, for assuming that the basics of language must have been present before our species started evolving along its own path.




Brutananadilewski added to this post, 3 minutes and 32 seconds later...



Animals lack the ability for language as we use and understand it, but I'll arugue that whales "singing" or dogs barking, or what have you, is language itself. Meaning is being conveyed through actions or sounds between individuals in a community. Whether we understand it or not, or whether it's complex or not doesn't bely the fact that its still a form of language.


Well I'll be a monkey's uncle!

You made some very good points. Yes you are right, animal communication is very sophistocated, and highly intelligent. They communicate with color, smell body language, sounds, movement, I can't believe how intelligent dolphins are with their sonar they know the difference between a dime and a penny.


My dog once told me there was an oppossium on the fence. Really I'm serious, I was watching TV. one night and he started barking and continued barking and barking, when I came outside he spun around in a circle, he gradually lead me back to the fence, then pointed up with his nose. When I looked up with my flash light I saw the oppossium hissing at us.

I love the way dogs protect people, it could have been a moutain lion or tiger. Dogs have saved people's lives so many times.

[Sara27]

Here's an article from "The New York Times" that voices both sides of the issue.

Chimp Talk Debate: Is It Really Language?

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[Goose]

id recommend a book called chimpanzee politics power and sex among apes is you want to learn more about how similar we are.

also very interesting....... To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.