INTJs and being "manipulative"

[Fruvous]

I was going to post this to the "treating people just like pawns in chess" (wait till Judgement Day comes) thread, but I thought it needed more room.

What is the ethics of "being manipulative"?

If you're a manipulative person in the modern vernacular, it's universally considered to be a bad thing, although if you ask people, it's hard to get a precise definition. It seems like the crime of "being manipulative" has something to do with being sneaky and dishonest, and something about coercion, like you're twisting people's arms behind their backs.

To me, this came to a head with several seminal donnybrooks with my siblings, who accused me of being manipulative because I could grasp their emotions and motives and whatnot, and use this knowledge to get what I wanted, or at least, as a form of self-defense against their advantages in age, authority, size, etc.

First, I had to realize that not everybody sees what I see, metaphorically speaking. I assumed that everyone could figure out what made other people tick, and would use this knowledge the same way they'd use all the rest of things they knew about the world to accomplish their goals.

So I came to this with a sort of innocence, at first. But I learned. And other incidents taught me that I had the ability to manipulate people quite effectively, through a combination of very good psychological perceptions, a certain amount of a certain kind of charisma, and the ability to formulate and execute complex multi-stage plans. This was sobering.... to realize that you've been manipulating people, and they don't even know it, and you hadn't ever intended to do so, is like suddenly fining yourself on the edge of a very steep moral precipice. I learned to control these abilities, and only use them consciously and when I felt it was justified.

But I still feel like I don't really understand. Adn I know I'll always be in peril of using these abilities selfishly, or evilly. Liek all INTJs (I think), I'm extremely goal oriented. When I decide to do something, I will get it done, by whatever means necessary. Now if this plan requires performing certain actions on certain people to get them to do what I want them to do, is that always evil? Or is it not evil within certain rules?

I don't lie to people. I don't exploit their emotional weaknesses. or use my ability to figure out their secrets against them. But I do my best to convince them.... as do we all. I might be better at it than others. Is that evil?

I'd really like the thoughts and impressions of other INTJs about this subject, as I feel it's key to our thinking.

[azelismia]

I was going to post this to the "treating people just like pawns in chess" (wait till Judgement Day comes) thread, but I thought it needed more room.

What is the ethics of "being manipulative"?

If you're a manipulative person in the modern vernacular, it's universally considered to be a bad thing, although if you ask people, it's hard to get a precise definition. It seems like the crime of "being manipulative" has something to do with being sneaky and dishonest, and something about coercion, like you're twisting people's arms behind their backs.

To me, this came to a head with several seminal donnybrooks with my siblings, who accused me of being manipulative because I could grasp their emotions and motives and whatnot, and use this knowledge to get what I wanted, or at least, as a form of self-defense against their advantages in age, authority, size, etc.

First, I had to realize that not everybody sees what I see, metaphorically speaking. I assumed that everyone could figure out what made other people tick, and would use this knowledge the same way they'd use all the rest of things they knew about the world to accomplish their goals.

So I came to this with a sort of innocence, at first. But I learned. And other incidents taught me that I had the ability to manipulate people quite effectively, through a combination of very good psychological perceptions, a certain amount of a certain kind of charisma, and the ability to formulate and execute complex multi-stage plans. This was sobering.... to realize that you've been manipulating people, and they don't even know it, and you hadn't ever intended to do so, is like suddenly fining yourself on the edge of a very steep moral precipice. I learned to control these abilities, and only use them consciously and when I felt it was justified.

But I still feel like I don't really understand. Adn I know I'll always be in peril of using these abilities selfishly, or evilly. Liek all INTJs (I think), I'm extremely goal oriented. When I decide to do something, I will get it done, by whatever means necessary. Now if this plan requires performing certain actions on certain people to get them to do what I want them to do, is that always evil? Or is it not evil within certain rules?

I don't lie to people. I don't exploit their emotional weaknesses. or use my ability to figure out their secrets against them. But I do my best to convince them.... as do we all. I might be better at it than others. Is that evil?

I'd really like the thoughts and impressions of other INTJs about this subject, as I feel it's key to our thinking.


manipulation means you make them think they wanted whatever the end result was all along, and as long as they can be convinced I don't see how it's bad.

forcing someone into doing something with blackmail or extortion is another story altogether.

[Danisty]

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with it. Other people use their skills to get by. Some people have good looks, some people have good social skills...they use these things in the same way you're using your skills. People manipulate others all the time but people only think it's sinister when you're using a skill or some sort of insight that they don't understand.

[IgnoranceIsKind]

Judging from what you have written, I don't think the key issue here is manipulation. Your ability to see through people as though they were transparent is due probably to your well developed analytical skills, which I might add is fairly common amongst the NT types as well as the NFs. What follows naturally is also the clarity of the motive behind their actions and a general difficulty to succeed in 'buying you over' emotionally. I think you would agree with me that when intentions aren't pure, the process that goes to attain it isn't going to be one that is made obvious and public. It will probably be done in a very secretive fashion. But the fact that people are, figuratively speaking, 'translucent' to you will definitely be made apparent to them. Such a trait would inevitably cause some sense of insecurity because you would seem to see through, or even to an extent predict what they are about to do. This is perhaps why people say you are manipulative.

My belief that a manipulative person is only so when one makes a conscious choice. It is the intent that readily decides that one will use others for their own goals. In real life, the less intelligible will see no difference between the two, but however vaguely manipulation and a developed analytical intelligence stands apart each other, it makes a hell of a difference in deciding what kind of person you are. Now, I'm not going to decide for you which category you fall into, but my stand on the ethics of manipulation is that it is sheer cowardice backed by an incapability to realise your own accomplishments.

[Fruvous]

Judging from what you have written, I don't think the key issue here is manipulation. Your ability to see through people as though they were transparent is due probably to your well developed analytical skills, which I might add is fairly common amongst the NT types as well as the NFs. What follows naturally is also the clarity of the motive behind their actions and a general difficulty to succeed in 'buying you over' emotionally. I think you would agree with me that when intentions aren't pure, the process that goes to attain it isn't going to be one that is made obvious and public. It will probably be done in a very secretive fashion. But the fact that people are, figuratively speaking, 'translucent' to you will definitely be made apparent to them. Such a trait would inevitably cause some sense of insecurity because you would seem to see through, or even to an extent predict what they are about to do. This is perhaps why people say you are manipulative.

My belief that a manipulative person is only so when one makes a conscious choice. It is the intent that readily decides that one will use others for their own goals. In real life, the less intelligible will see no difference between the two, but however vaguely manipulation and a developed analytical intelligence stands apart each other, it makes a hell of a difference in deciding what kind of person you are. Now, I'm not going to decide for you which category you fall into, but my stand on the ethics of manipulation is that it is sheer cowardice backed by an incapability to realise your own accomplishments.
Hmmm. I'm leery of making an exemption for that which is not consciously chosen, because often our minds can be quite sneaky when trying to subvert our sense of morality.

Anyhow.... yes, I have a high developed analytical mind, so much so that I am sometime confused when others lack it. I sometimes feel like I have a three dimensional mind in Flatland, able to see and do things that Flatlanders find shocking and weird, but to me seem pretty darn obvious.

[Antares]

Like you, I consider myself a 'natural manipulator'. I don't often do it with intention; it just comes out when I least expect it to. Regarding the ethics of manipulation, as long as you're not manipulating them to do something that harms themselves or others, it's fine. But I will manipulate to get rid of competition. For example, I will feel no guilt if I manipulated or convinced a fellow competitor to withdraw. I want to win and I don't care how I do it (as long as I don't cheat). If they fell for it, then it's their fault anyway; they chose to let me manipulate them. INTJs and many T types are generally harder to manipulate. It's a shield that comes naturally to many Ts, but those who are susceptible can't complain if they find themselves falling for manipulation. They should have taken the time to learn it. It's just like if I wrote a very vague paper, got a low grade and blaming it on not being an S.

[Fruvous]

Like you, I consider myself a 'natural manipulator'. I don't often do it with intention; it just comes out when I least expect it to. Regarding the ethics of manipulation, as long as you're not manipulating them to do something that harms themselves or others, it's fine. But I will manipulate to get rid of competition. For example, I will feel no guilt if I manipulated or convinced a fellow competitor to withdraw. I want to win and I don't care how I do it (as long as I don't cheat). If they fell for it, then it's their fault anyway; they chose to let me manipulate them. INTJs and many T types are generally harder to manipulate. It's a shield that comes naturally to many Ts, but those who are susceptible can't complain if they find themselves falling for manipulation. They should have taken the time to learn it. It's just like if I wrote a very vague paper, got a low grade and blaming it on not being an S.
That's very Darwinist of you. Survival of the most ruthless? I haven't faced much direct competition in my life, so I don't know how I'd handle it, whether I'd have some restraint or just go for the jugular and do it with a smile. I can be fairly competitive, but I'm not particularly aggressive, if that makes sense. I'll try to out-do, out-shine, out-impress someone else, but I'm fairly unlikely to take direct action against them except in self-defense. That'll probably cost me, somewhere down the line.

[Caesar]

For example, I will feel no guilt if I manipulated or convinced a fellow competitor to withdraw.

definitely a natural manipulator :suspicious:

[Antares]

That's very Darwinist of you. Survival of the most ruthless? I haven't faced much direct competition in my life, so I don't know how I'd handle it, whether I'd have some restraint or just go for the jugular and do it with a smile. I can be fairly competitive, but I'm not particularly aggressive, if that makes sense. I'll try to out-do, out-shine, out-impress someone else, but I'm fairly unlikely to take direct action against them except in self-defense. That'll probably cost me, somewhere down the line.

I'm probably more the 'use people like pawns' type of person. But I don't do this usually; only if it's important to me. If it's stuff like a short story contest which I couldn't care less about winning (we were required to enter it), then I won't lift a finger. Similarly on any official competition like the Piano competition I entered (also unwillingly), or college application. But if it's stuff like an audition, me or them, then I'd choose me. I see it as them not being smart enough if they get manipulated, because seriously, even if I hadn't exactly 'removed' anyone (I don't usually get into competitions), the technique I can see myself using is so pathetically elementary I'd be a bit surprised if anyone fell for it (but primitive methods have worked in the past. *sigh* people these days).

lol about the Darwin statement, but it's more like 'survival of the most cunning'. There are ruthless people who are pretty... unfit, either physically or psychologically. Just brute force for them.

[Fruvous]

I'm probably more the 'use people like pawns' type of person. But I don't do this usually; only if it's important to me. If it's stuff like a short story contest which I couldn't care less about winning (we were required to enter it), then I won't lift a finger. Similarly on any official competition like the Piano competition I entered (also unwillingly), or college application. But if it's stuff like an audition, me or them, then I'd choose me. I see it as them not being smart enough if they get manipulated, because seriously, even if I hadn't exactly 'removed' anyone (I don't usually get into competitions), the technique I can see myself using is so pathetically elementary I'd be a bit surprised if anyone fell for it (but primitive methods have worked in the past. *sigh* people these days).

lol about the Darwin statement, but it's more like 'survival of the most cunning'. There are ruthless people who are pretty... unfit, either physically or psychologically. Just brute force for them.
Saying "I'm only evil when it's something I care about" is setting the ethical bar a mite low, is it not? :) But seriously... dunno if I'd do any better.

[Antares]

Saying "I'm only evil when it's something I care about" is setting the ethical bar a mite low, is it not? :) But seriously... dunno if I'd do any better.

Haha. Get used to it. I'm not that ethical actually. Everything depends on the situation, not 'one rule for all'.

[Noehelia]

I would like to note some of my observations.
1) It seems that N types have some kind of skill in finding someone's week point. I have realized that for myself in the past and i felt so bad about it because I didn't do it consciously and then I saw the effect it had on people. Like I mentioned something to someone and he started crying. So since then I am very cautious on this.
2) Many INTJ's seem to not have respect for all people, they do not perceive them as equal so they downgrade the importance of hurting them or doing something to them they wouldn't like to be done to themselves.
3) INTJ's are sensitive to the notion of manipulation. None that I know ever talks about manipulation, it is like it doesn't exist, people are not so much aware of it at least in my culture and then I meet my boyfriend who is an INTJ and he talks about it in the first week of our acquaintance. And then I see here so much talking about manipulation also. I believe this is happening because of a couple of things. INTJ's place so much importance to their freedom, their independence, their right to personal unique thinking and they have a strong sense of themselves that is why they react so much on anything that might try to impose something on them. On the other hand they become aware of their skill to see through others while they discover they are not so empathetic and they do not respect others much. So although they would feel violated if someone tried to impose something to them they block that feeling and they do not receive it from others when they are the ones who impose something to others. This is an interesting case for them as they are trying to understand themselves and at what point they can stretch that skill.

[Fruvous]

I would like to note some of my observations.
1) It seems that N types have some kind of skill in finding someone's week point. I have realized that for myself in the past and i felt so bad about it because I didn't do it consciously and then I saw the effect it had on people. Like I mentioned something to someone and he started crying. So since then I am very cautious on this.
2) Many INTJ's seem to not have respect for all people, they do not perceive them as equal so they downgrade the importance of hurting them or doing something to them they wouldn't like to be done to themselves.
3) INTJ's are sensitive to the notion of manipulation. None that I know ever talks about manipulation, it is like it doesn't exist, people are not so much aware of it at least in my culture and then I meet my boyfriend who is an INTJ and he talks about it in the first week of our acquaintance. And then I see here so much talking about manipulation also. I believe this is happening because of a couple of things. INTJ's place so much importance to their freedom, their independence, their right to personal unique thinking and they have a strong sense of themselves that is why they react so much on anything that might try to impose something on them. On the other hand they become aware of their skill to see through others while they discover they are not so empathetic and they do not respect others much. So although they would feel violated if someone tried to impose something to them they block that feeling and they do not receive it from others when they are the ones who impose something to others. This is an interesting case for them as they are trying to understand themselves and at what point they can stretch that skill.
I try to have respect for all, though I'm beginning to wonder what that costs me. Plus, it's hard to escape noticing that there's the small minority who have some sort of clue as to what's going on, and the vast majority who have no idea. It ends up being a kind of minority rule simply because high IQ/wisdom is rare.

I know there's a small minority of people I want to be involved with, people who understand me. Like you folks here! The rest can leave me the heck alone.

[Seppuku Savant]

I would like to note some of my observations.
1) It seems that N types have some kind of skill in finding someone's week point. I have realized that for myself in the past and i felt so bad about it because I didn't do it consciously and then I saw the effect it had on people. Like I mentioned something to someone and he started crying. So since then I am very cautious on this.
2) Many INTJ's seem to not have respect for all people, they do not perceive them as equal so they downgrade the importance of hurting them or doing something to them they wouldn't like to be done to themselves.
3) INTJ's are sensitive to the notion of manipulation. None that I know ever talks about manipulation, it is like it doesn't exist, people are not so much aware of it at least in my culture and then I meet my boyfriend who is an INTJ and he talks about it in the first week of our acquaintance. And then I see here so much talking about manipulation also. I believe this is happening because of a couple of things. INTJ's place so much importance to their freedom, their independence, their right to personal unique thinking and they have a strong sense of themselves that is why they react so much on anything that might try to impose something on them. On the other hand they become aware of their skill to see through others while they discover they are not so empathetic and they do not respect others much. So although they would feel violated if someone tried to impose something to them they block that feeling and they do not receive it from others when they are the ones who impose something to others. This is an interesting case for them as they are trying to understand themselves and at what point they can stretch that skill.

Interesting points. I will not tolerate manipulation from anyone and will be quick to point out someone's game upon me. Though, I manipulate others fairly well without them ever noticing.

[Max]

I will not tolerate manipulation from anyone and will be quick to point out someone's game upon me. Though, I manipulate others fairly well without them ever noticing.



Same.

[Fruvous]

Interesting points. I will not tolerate manipulation from anyone and will be quick to point out someone's game upon me. Though, I manipulate others fairly well without them ever noticing.
I've even been insulted by someone's pathetically transparent attempts to manipulate me. Other times, of course, I pretend to be manipulated and wait for the right moments to shed the cold, hard light of reason on the person's plans.

Insert supervillanous cackle here. :)