A result freak

[Fryman58]

Towards the end of my last semester one of my professors called me a control freak, which I took offense to. In one brilliant move I told him, "You are wrong. I am not a control freak. I am a result freak."

After that comment, he looked at me awkwardly before I said, "I do not look at people as data points to be controlled." He mention that my teammates said I was too focus on accomplishing the mission and viewed them as data points. "I view people as variables that produce data point." Did not really help me...

Since this was a business class he did not understand my science terminology and change the subject to something else. I think he asked about how I view high school. He then challenge my views, I refuted his challenge with facts and observations, and he claim I did not listen to him. Of course, I repeated his arguments and feelings to prove that I did listen. He then said this is the issue people have with me and said I did not listen.

I ended the fun conversation with "I do not care what people do or feel. I only want to be right. That is all I care about."

(yes I am paraphrasing)

To me a control freak is someone who obsess over how to reach a destination. I do not do that. I care about reach the destination/outcome. I am content to let things work themselves out as long as I get result. Do people understand what I am trying to say?

Background fact: We went on a team building hike the previous week. My teammates did not listen to any of my rational arguments on getting to the next check point. For ignoring me, we got lost in the woods and walked up a mountain in PA. Apparently, I am the only one that could read a Topographical map correctly despite the fact that I am not outdoorsy like my teammates. So I ditch my teammates the first chance I got and went home, which is frowned upon for some reason. The chance to leave came in the form of two random locals in a secluded part of the woods.

[Merak]

I'm not sure what you are trying to gain from this post.

[Fryman58]

just venting and seeking some validation for how I think

[Warrior]

Did not really help me...

I'm shocked.

He then said this is the issue people have with me and said I did not listen.

I ended the fun conversation with "I do not care what people do or feel. I only want to be right. That is all I care about."

Sounds like he was right after all.


To me a control freak is someone who obsess over how to reach a destination. I do not do that. I care about reach the destination. I am content to let things work themselves out as long as I get the desire result, or any result. Do people understand what I am trying to say?

Background fact: We went on a team building hike the previous week. My teammates did not listen to any of my rational arguments on getting to the next check point. For ignoring me, we got lost in the woods and walked up a mountain in PA. Apparently, I am the only one that could read a Topographical map correctly despite the fact that I am not outdoorsy like my teammates. So I ditch my teammates the first chance I got and went home, which is frowned upon for some reason. The chance to leave came in the form of two random locals in a secluded part of the woods.

I thought you didn't obsess over how to reach a destination. Why do you care if you walked up a mountain? You didn't seem too content to let things work themselves out in this situation.

[Fryman58]

I took offense to him saying I wanted to control everything. Everything else he said seem valid. I have horrible people skill, (I viewed) my teammates are morons, and I did not care about them. If I was a control freak I would have been more demanding and force people to go my route (which were easier and correct).

My destination was not over the mountain to the check point. My destination was home so I could write a paper. Being with my team did not seem beneficial and I did not want to control them. They rejected my ideas so I rejected them.

I wanted my result the easiest way. If it was not with my teammates then I was content with leaving.

[rbc]

"I do not care what people do or feel. I only want to be right. That is all I care about."

Good for you! Here's some validation. :)

[Pika]

Not too many people get in trouble by keeping their mouths shut. Perhaps you should try it.

[Fryman58]

RBC :thumbsup: for validating me

Pika :thumbsdown: I don't understand your post. If I avoid trouble, how am I suppose to test and gather data? I think this thread is about how I do not want to control things. I want to see the outcomes.

Yes my OP is a mess... and confusing... and not completely together...

[Merak]

You are missing the point your teacher was (likely) getting at. Regardless of whether you define yourself as a control freak or results freak, there is more to a team than being right. Generally, it is better to build bridges than to burn bridges.

You are awesome and smart and stuff. Cool. Now work on treating team members like humans and tactfully getting them to do what needs to be done.

Protip: Ranting about your skills and storming off is not a good tactic to advance one's career.

[killyridols]

Why do you need other people to validate you? If you care about being right, the one thing you should be able to control is whether or not you are valid.

[MyotisLucifugus]

Since this was a business class he did not understand my science terminology and change the subject to something else. I think he asked about how I view high school. He then challenge my views, I refuted his challenge with facts and observations, and he claim I did not listen to him. Of course, I repeated his arguments and feelings to prove that I did listen. He then said this is the issue people have with me and said I did not listen.


Reading some of these threads is like cracking open an epically cringe-worthy time capsule for me.

[DeaconSyre]

Reading some of these threads is like cracking open an epically cringe-worthy time capsule for me.

I try to avoid them unless I'm feeling either self-loathing or altruistic.

[Fryman58]

Merak: that is true. I did try to build a bridge, but after a while I gave up. I said to hell with the bridge and burn the mother.... down... Ranting and storming off is indeed not a good tactic. That experience taught me a valuable lesson. Since I learn a valuable lesson it was a good outcome.

My team was stuck on that mountain for an additional 5 hours. It was snowing/raining too... Sometimes I need to know when to cut my losses before I reach my breaking point...

Killyridols: I am not great and controlling so I cannot control whether I am right or not. I get a result, report it, and see what other people think. If others do not validate my views then that means I am wrong in some way. During that experience, I was wrong in how I built my bridge and it produce that outcome.

This is how I think about stuff. I want to see the result and then determine how it occur. A control freak would control the process to get a specific result.

---------- Post added 05-26-2011 at 10:34 PM ----------

MyotisLucifugus and DeaconSyre, you know you do not have to post or read these threads...

No one is forcing you to read/reply to these incoherent vents...

[DeaconSyre]

MyotisLucifugus and DeaconSyre, you know you do not have to post or read these threads...

No one is forcing you to read/reply to these incoherent vents...

I was feeling altruistic (somewhat).

[Fryman58]

I was feeling altruistic (somewhat).

well I made this thread out of self-loathing. So thanks for being altruistic (somewhat) :thumbsup:

[Senseofrelief]

So your arguing 'results' with someone that chose to live in academia, where results, reality, getting it done, etc, have all been thrown out the door?

In the real world, Darwinian reality, you either date the girl, or go home and beat off...your either a participant in life, throwing touchdowns, or a spectator, or worse, zoned out not even in the game.

Simply put, in a team..members are either 100% working, producing, solving, and endeavoring to reach the goal, in the quickest, most efficient manner...everything else is bullshit.

[MyotisLucifugus]

I was feeling altruistic (somewhat).

Same here. It's actually kind of endearing in a birds-of-a-feather sort of way.

[Fryman58]

So your arguing 'results' with someone that chose to live in academia, where results, reality, getting it done, etc, have all been thrown out the door?

In the real world, Darwinian reality, you either date the girl, or go home and beat off...your either a participant in life, throwing touchdowns, or a spectator, or worse, zoned out not even in the game.

Simply put, in a team..members are either 100% working, producing, solving, and endeavoring to reach the goal, in the quickest, most efficient manner...everything else is bullshit.

Yes! I feel like GlaDOS responding to Cave Johnson when he talked about lemons in portal 2.

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[DeaconSyre]

Yes! I feel like GlaDOS responding to Cave Johnson when he talked about lemons in portal 2.

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Cathartic releases of emotion are an important part of self-discovery and improvement.

[Jalex]

Yes, you are a control.freak... being right is being in control... when you are wrong you lose control...you don't want to be wrong so you don't lose control, this is how the self defense mechanism works....

[Fryman58]

Yes, you are a control.freak... being right is being in control... when you are wrong you lose control...you don't want to be wrong so you don't lose control, this is how the self defense mechanism works....

no one wants to be wrong, so does that make everyone a control freak? I thought a control freak is a person who is obsess with doing this a certain way, and attempts to dictate how everything is done around them? In another words a control freak tries to be a perfectionist in everything.

If you read my op, you know I am not even trying to be perfect. In the group I was in, I tried to contribute and choose the most efficient path to finish the hike with my group. They did not want to listen to my suggestions so I went with their decision until I had enough and left. Hardly the perfect outcome...

My point is, a control freak does easily not give up control and obsess over how things are done. I tried to do things right, it failed, I moved on. Of course I review my result and try to figure out what happen. Hopefully, I learn my lesson and make new mistakes... I like making mistakes, which is something a control freak does not like.

Of course, the mistakes I make are in the plan so I know how to deal with them. That is planning and obsessing over the result.

[rbc]

Generally, it is better to build bridges than to burn bridges.
That depends entirely on where the bridges go.
Now work on treating team members like humans and tactfully getting them to do what needs to be done.
That depends on whether you actually expect to ever work with them again. If not, ignoring their feelings is marvelously liberating, and intentionally manipulating their feelings can be fun. However, there is good advice here -- even if you don't care what other people feel, they care what they feel. Therefore, if you want to manipulate them with maximal efficiency, you have to take their feelings into account. If merely being right will do, then their feelings are indeed irrelevant, but getting results means taking their feelings into account when planning.
Reading some of these threads is like cracking open an epically cringe-worthy time capsule for me.
Sometimes, but they also sometimes make me smile. Like this one, so far.
I try to avoid them unless I'm feeling either self-loathing or altruistic.
Every time you guys say "altruistic", I keep seeing "autistic". :)

[Merak]

That depends entirely on where the bridges go.

Certainly. But considering the average person lives in a consistent, mundane cycle (Read: dead end job), those bridges are likely paying your bills.

That depends on whether you actually expect to ever work with them again. If not, ignoring their feelings is marvelously liberating, and intentionally manipulating their feelings can be fun. However, there is good advice here -- even if you don't care what other people feel, they care what they feel. Therefore, if you want to manipulate them with maximal efficiency, you have to take their feelings into account. If merely being right will do, then their feelings are indeed irrelevant, but getting results means taking their feelings into account when planning.

That is what I meant by tactfully. Of course I don't give a damn about other's feelings, but if manipulation is your goal, you would do well to learn how to effectively deal with others.

i.e., even if they are pawns on your chessboard, do them a favor and call them people, mmkay?

[MusicalINTJ]

cooking up the most marketable product is the way to go for the INTJ

hide away in a basement. work at a gas station.

And just bust out the best song, book, whatever. Put it on the web.

Use your intuition to determine what is marketable. You will make the dough.

Wala. No people to deal with.

[Fryman58]

what about the Bridge to Nowhere? People seemed happy to burn that idea...

I did not really have to deal with my group anymore. The entire semester we had group activities that should build group bonds for this hike. Obviously, we did not have a good group dynamic....

Can I call my pawns minions? My group members were not my minions. They were a pain in the a... i mean morons. YES, my people skills suck, but my teammates did not matter. Their bright ideas got us lost! All I needed to do was interact with them to write a reflection paper.

I wrote about group dissolution and conflict. Best part is that, I end the paper calling my group member pieces of scum on the bottom of my boots. I think that proved my worth.

MusicalINTJ: I don't like to eat dough, and I never cooked with it before. So I can't make it now. However, I can learn how to make dough... Not now. It is midnight. Later.. much later I will try.

edit: I am aware of how ridiculous this thread is, and I am ok with it.

HOW CAN I BE A CONTROL FREAK WHEN I MESSED UP SO BAD AND FELT NOTHING?

[Beric]

As an INTJ in marketing (a junior in undergrad business school right now), I have to deal with group situations all the time. Practically every class is a group project. I'm always the most competent (intelligent, knowledgeable, hardworking, and skilled) group member when I want to be. But I don't brag about it in real life. I've had a couple group projects that fell apart at the end of the quarter, due to issues I was predicting to my fellow members in the second week. But you have to be humble in these situations, as much as I've fought having to do so myself.

Talking these sorts of things over with your professor is great. I always ask the most questions in classes due to my plain and simple love of learning, and professors appreciate that. So, when I'm over-analyzing and see group issues arising, I'll ask my professor for advice on what to do, which will immediately pull him towards my side. I desire to be a leader in business someday. And, unfortunately that means I'll have to work with people who value their emotions and how others feel more than their actual competency. You might as well practice working with this now, while you're still in school and have second chances. You'll probably never see these people again, so practice and screw up. But graduate and get a job, and you'd just get fired for a similar situation.

I'll admit I'm a slightly less introverted INTJ, but that's not the big deal here. I (and hopefully you) both want to achieve things. That means you have to learn the system. So, rather than fighting the system, I'm doing my best to humbly learn it, by asking questions and treating group projects and other social interactions as learning experiences. You're a master at your subject. It's how both you and I will get our jobs someday. But the more agreeable, less competent person will get hired first in most professions. So I'm viewing social competency as being as important as obtaining new knowledge and skills.

[MusicalINTJ]

MusicalINTJ: I don't like to eat dough, and I never cooked with it before. So I can't make it now. However, I can learn how to make dough... Not now. It is midnight. Later.. much later I will try.

Remember I said you will make the dough? I meant you make the dough: tonight. Hell, I'll make it for you. Credit card info plz?

[Fryman58]

Beric: I practice and screwed up plenty in college. I am slightly better at dealing with people. Learning the system is great, but when the system inhibits the outcomes I will make hell. I could not tell if the professors liked or hated the fact that I challenge and research things I did not approve of. There is always room for improvement, and I know what needs to be improve. After 4 years in college I gain a lot of self confidence, an area I was lacking four years ago.

I like testing my limits...

I am entering a profession where most people hate us, and results are what matter. If we screw up then a lot of people die. I am going to be a Nuclear Engineer. Most of the enlisted and officers hate people in that program because of the perks, but if we screw up then a lot of people are dead... Everyone will hate me and I will be judge by my results... I hope I do not screw up too often...

MusicalINTJ: I am sorry, but you doing it would defeat the purpose. I have to learn to make the dough since I am not going to be dealing with people. By working with you I will be a part of a team.

[Moniker9]

This sounds like a typical example of an intj locking horns with the illogical masses. Our groups tends to think the way you do, only caring about results, seeing people as data points. You seem to be learning that the 'data points' do not always appreciate that mentality. Personally I say fuck 'em, but if you want to interact productively with them you have to alter your language if not your attitude. Quite frankly, you will have to manipulate them. If you want validation, I agree wholeheartedly with your world view, our type are thinkers, that's really all we care about. Your mistake may be in expecting others to approach things the same way you do. My experience is that most other types cannot fathom the way we think. Not to be too harsh but they think like sheep, and if you want them to listen to you, you have to communicate with that in mind.

[MusicalINTJ]

MusicalINTJ: I am sorry, but you doing it would defeat the purpose. I have to learn to make the dough since I am not going to be dealing with people. By working with you I will be a part of a team.

Touche. Pleasure NOT doing business with you!:thumbsup:

[obiwan177]

Tact is something very useful I've found. I have realized that I don't very often say what I actually think (I just don't say anything because I hate BSing things too). I'm pretty sure I did this to cope with my inability to say 'nice' things. Now I'm seen as nice, because I don't mentally slap people in the face, even if I think it in my head.

However, I love the idea that even if you don't care for other people's emotions, you need to take them into account when you're manipulating them. They care about their emotions, so it ultimately affects the way they respond to you.

There is a superb book by Clifford Nass on the psychology of emotion and how it works. I know that I read a lot about how emotion works (from a scientific perspective of course). I wonder if you guys do that often and if it helps us learn how to deal with people who actually use their emotions?

[plotthickens]

Two points.

Why are you interested in results? To improve?

Then note that others, when they talk with you or interact with you, have different viewpoints. Whether or not you choose to take that information along with your own viewpoint is your own choice.

I choose to have as much information as possible. When others take the time to talk to me, I try to listen. If their point is valid, I integrate it. If not, then I'm learning about how they think and I integrate that.

Going into a conversation with a big NO NO NO YOU'RE AN IDIOT NOT LISTENING on your forehead is going to waste everyone's time. Listening is worthwhile. Some people are really excellent examples of what not to do.

My second point: being seen as an asshole is a good way to be ignored, even when you have good input. Since it seems like you don't like being ignored, you may need to decide between

be perceived as a Good Guy
takes effort
may get you good things
your advice will be listenened to

not bothering
no effort
no reciprocation
you will be ignored and seen as an asshole

Since you're a critical thinker and results-oriented, you will be able to choose which one you want. It may be worthwhile to develop the skills to do #1 whenever you please, but be able to fall back on #2 whenever you want. I like it -- when I do #1, people help me. When I don't bother, I can recharge.

Good luck.

[Prime Minister]

You are a man of action and a man of action you should have been. You should have just walked to the check point, gave your group some instructions on how to get in touch/catch up with you (in the form of writing if possible), and moved on.

And don't take offense to what your professor has called you. Please. It's inappropriate and he shouldn't have said it regardless of how you handled that situation.

[Senseofrelief]

Two points.

Why are you interested in results? To improve?

Then note that others, when they talk with you or interact with you, have different viewpoints. Whether or not you choose to take that information along with your own viewpoint is your own choice.

I choose to have as much information as possible. When others take the time to talk to me, I try to listen. If their point is valid, I integrate it. If not, then I'm learning about how they think and I integrate that.

Going into a conversation with a big NO NO NO YOU'RE AN IDIOT NOT LISTENING on your forehead is going to waste everyone's time. Listening is worthwhile. Some people are really excellent examples of what not to do.

My second point: being seen as an asshole is a good way to be ignored, even when you have good input. Since it seems like you don't like being ignored, you may need to decide between

be perceived as a Good Guy
takes effort
may get you good things
your advice will be listenened to

not bothering
no effort
no reciprocation
you will be ignored and seen as an asshole

Since you're a critical thinker and results-oriented, you will be able to choose which one you want. It may be worthwhile to develop the skills to do #1 whenever you please, but be able to fall back on #2 whenever you want. I like it -- when I do #1, people help me. When I don't bother, I can recharge.

Good luck.

Sounds like the mantra of the social networking generation....

Sorry...it's like this...'your not cooperating? Your not happy with my tone? You don't want to get on board?

Fine, you get thrown off the boat.

We don't have to pander to your feelings, thoughts, ideas, etc...your either on the team, or your not.

So get on board, or stay the f$$k home and play with your playstation.

[Seablue]

I agree with Plotthickens. When you have to work in a group (or even live in a group, I guess) you'll have to interact with people and you'll want them to listen. You can try presenting them with cold facts, maybe it'll work right away (because they're rational people and your idea is obviously the better one). But if it doesn't and they don't listen right away, then it's no use screaming. You won't learn to be diplomatic because it's nice, but you can learn to pretend to be diplomatic because it's efficient.

The "if they don't like my tone they can't leave" doesn't work if they're 10, you're only 1, and you're not even the boss. They won't leave, you will. Which might be okay in some cases but not in many others.

So, this was me being empathetic. I might be giving advice but actually I still struggle with this too. It's just been a long time since I've had to work with incompetent people. I think I would have abandoned them during the hike too if they didn't want to listen no matter how gently, then how firmly, I stated my view ; I'm not going to freeze in the woods because of some morons.

On another note, I would say that you are a control freak. You separate end from means, say you care only about the result and not how it's achieved. But actually these can't be separated, they go together, of course you have to care about what is done when you care about the result. If you have to paint a room in red and people come back from the store with blue paint, you will care about it because obviously the result won't be achieved any time soon if they don't stop. I thought a control freak is a person who is obsess with doing this a certain way, and attempts to dictate how everything is done around them? That's the good thing about INTJ, they don't necessarily care that things are done "a certain way" (the old way, or their own way...). They accept changes, new ideas and suggestions from others, more easily than some other types. But they do care that it's done the best way, the most efficient way. And if it can't be done "the best way", well, at least in a good way...
So you might not insist that they go to this store because it's where your father and grandfather before you always bought paint, but you'll care that they buy red paint in the right amount and of the right quality. HOW CAN I BE A CONTROL FREAK WHEN I MESSED UP SO BAD AND FELT NOTHING? You might end up painting the room yourself and you won't "feel anything" because the result was achieved - you didn't messed up. Okay, they'll be whining that you ignored their beautiful blue paint and are a mean person, but it's not "messing up" in your eyes, you don't care. But if you really weren't a control freak, you might have settled for painting the room in blue.

Sorry about the comparison. Of course nuclear engineering and paint are very different things, and I do hope you don't let people paint in blue what should be in red (now I'm just confusing myself). But I think it made my point about what is a "control freak". No offense, I'm one too, I guess.

[MissMeg]

Do what I do - manipulate the people around you into doing what you want and thinking it was their own idea ... ;-)

(As long as you don't mind who gets the credit)

[Seablue]

Do what I do - manipulate the people around you into doing what you want and thinking it was their own idea ... ;-)

(As long as you don't mind who gets the credit)

I have an INTJ friend who does that. She has her plan in head, she lets other people propose their ideas, then goes "Well, A. is right, and T. has a good point, so we'll do it like that, with just a small change, etc". Actually she's just selecting the ideas that correspond to the plan she had in mind. And everyone is happy.

[obiwan177]

Or even just saying a bunch of the 'pieces' and then letting others put it all together. Like IKEA. People love IKEA because 'they' built it, when in reality they didn't at all.

[ntrneo]

Fryman58, dealing with less organized or skilled people is a normal thing - that's the material we are working on. There is nothing wise in self-boosting because of that and trying to lead as "the only hope to make it right". Notice the word: LEAD. It means a lot more than just using people as variables and producers, because in appropriate conditions they are capable of showing much more. It requires respect, humbleness and encouragement. Don't argue with your professor, if your aim in this lesson was more about building team than reaching some outcome, then you screwed it up, dude.

[MissMeg]

I have an INTJ friend who does that. She has her plan in head, she lets other people propose their ideas, then goes "Well, A. is right, and T. has a good point, so we'll do it like that, with just a small change, etc". Actually she's just selecting the ideas that correspond to the plan she had in mind. And everyone is happy.

See? Works perfectly. :-) And it's a lot easier/nicer than just being a bossy boots and telling everyone what to do all the time.

The best bit is when it looks like you're building a compromise out of everyone's ideas and they think you are such a team player for being so concerned that everyone's happy, when all you're doing is taking the bits of everyone's ideas that add up to the plan you had in mind in the first place.

---------- Post added 05-29-2011 at 01:32 PM ----------

Or even just saying a bunch of the 'pieces' and then letting others put it all together. Like IKEA. People love IKEA because 'they' built it, when in reality they didn't at all.

Totally! "Oh yeah, great idea guys!" ... ;-)

My friends always get me to come over and put their IKEA furniture together for them, because it's so easy for us INTJs. They cook me dinner and I put it together. Win win!

[rbc]

Do what I do - manipulate the people around you into doing what you want and thinking it was their own idea ... ;-)

This is my SOP as well. The trick is keeping a straight face!