Giant Confederate Flag in Tampa… (Amateurs!)

[Ool]

They put up this giant Confederate Flag (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) in Tampa, FL. Apparently right next to the Martin Luther King Blvd. Exit, too. I just saw it on Colbert…

I’ve been there last year, and all I can say is: Wusses! Now here’s the flag I’ll be putting up on my family’s private property over there next time I go:

Designed it myself. Like it…? (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Hey, a disgruntled German can dream, can’t he? I mean, why should we be satisfied with how history turned out…?

[Moriarty]

Do you have the same sort of problems in DE that we have in the USA (related to this topic)?

I wonder because on the one hand, I never saw a swastika openly displayed in DE, but on the other hand it's illegal to do so, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong).

I also wonder about the difference in education. History is something that seems more relegated as a side dish in the USA, or (even worse) completely subjective.

How is the nationalistic vibe in DE these days?

[Motor Jax]

i personally don't mind the Confederate Battle Flag displayed... i grew up under it my whole life... and i even have black friends back home that both fly it and wear it on their clothes... it gives me a very, VERY great sense of pride whenever i see that, and i just feel at home...

...but that's just me... to me, it isn't a statement of racism or slavery, but of unity of a common brotherhood of being Sons of the South...


so, being born in Tampa and knowing they fly this (being southern myself anyways) doesn't really bother me...

the Confederate Battle Flag (which is the proper term for it) is still part of a lot of southern flags


now, the Texas Flag, the blue field with the single white star was the first unofficial Flag of the Confedaracy... it was called the Bonnie Blue Flag, which was actually started in South Florida and ended up in the Texas State Flag, it being called the Lone Star State... go figure...




well, i could go on and on about the flags of the south... but i'm at wok... heh...

[Double Victory]

I watched that last night, as well. I'm not a very big fan of that flag because of what it used to stand for. Why does the South need it's own flag? I don't need a symbol to show that I grew up in the Midwest....

[kubrickfan]

I watched that last night, as well. I'm not a very big fan of that flag because of what it used to stand for. Why does the South need it's own flag? I don't need a symbol to show that I grew up in the Midwest....


Well in my opinion, nobody ever really needs anything they only strongly want to be defined as something. But I don't know, the north won they want a flag that's fine as long as it doesn't happen again. The civil war that is.

[Mozzes]

...but that's just me... to me, it isn't a statement of racism or slavery, but of unity of a common brotherhood of being Sons of the South...

I just don't understand it. I've lived in Texas and Tennessee my entire life and I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. What's so special about being from the south anyways? Sons of the South? We're all American, why not Sons of Sam? (I was thinking as in Uncle Sam, but on second thought maybe that one's not such a good idea...).

When I see the Confederate flag I think of slavery, tenant farming, sharecropping, the KKK, racism, segregation, lynch mobs, and a region of the United States that's still one of the most socially backwards places in the first world because it's been used to represent all of those things.

When I see the flag it doesn't remind me of Martin Luther King, Jr and the civil rights movement; William Faulkner, Flannery O'Connor, Eudora Welty and the tradition of southern literature; Rock and Roll, blues and Jazz.

I don't feel bonded to people just because fate happen to have us born in the same geographical region.

Don't get me wrong I love living in the south, but I don't understand this irrational attachment to a culture that doesn't exist anymore.

[Double Victory]

Well in my opinion, nobody ever really needs anything they only strongly want to be defined as something. But I don't know, the north won they want a flag that's fine as long as it doesn't happen again. The civil war that is.

Okay, bad word choice. Substitute "want" for "need". The point is that we're all American. If I said something like "I'm so proud to be from the Midwest!" all it would do is isolate people who weren't from the Midwest. There's nothing that makes one U.S. geographical region better than another. If you want to be proud of where you're from, be proud to be an American, and fly the American flag.

I agree with what Frickles said. Sure, there will be people who say that it doesn't mean anything anymore other than rebellion (which in itself isn't a good thing to stand for, since it was rebellion against America), but you can bet that there are still a lot of people who fly that flag and who use it to stand for racism, slavery, etc....

[Motor Jax]

oh, i didn't know Frickles changed to Wolverine... i like it...

anyways, i was just saying i am proud to be an American, but i am also proud of my home where i grew up... i fly that flag on my truck along with my Alabama plates, but not for the stated reasons above...

as for them flying that flag in Tampa, i see no difference than anywhere else down there

as bad as this may sound, it is still a part of all american history; whether it be good or bad, or black or white

[Mozzes]

oh, i didn't know Frickles changed to Wolverine... i like it...

anyways, i was just saying i am proud to be an American, but i am also proud of my home where i grew up... i fly that flag on my truck along with my Alabama plates, but not for the stated reasons above...

as for them flying that flag in Tampa, i see no difference than anywhere else down there

as bad as this may sound, it is still a part of all american history; whether it be good or bad, or black or white

I guess it's just something I don't understand. It probably doesn't help that I have no real connections to southern culture - my German and Irish ancestors didn't come to America until around the turn of the 20th century and only settled in the south about 60 or 70 years ago, I think. I call myself American and I don't feel anymore connected to other southerners than I do mid-westerners, people in the mid-atlantic or new England regions, people out west or on the west coast.

[Motor Jax]

yeah, i can see that

based on that, maybe its because i'm a first born southerner. my dad was born in New York after his parents came from post-WWII Germany... after that, they moved to florida where i was born... and that's where i was raised, all over the south...

i've been to Italy, Greece, New York, Puerto Rico, Vancouver Washington, DC, and it is only in the south that i feel like i am home

[kubrickfan]

Okay, bad word choice. Substitute "want" for "need". The point is that we're all American. If I said something like "I'm so proud to be from the Midwest!" all it would do is isolate people who weren't from the Midwest. There's nothing that makes one U.S. geographical region better than another. If you want to be proud of where you're from, be proud to be an American, and fly the American flag.

YES, fly that flag high. *Salutes* That's all I'm gonna say about this.

[bricklayer]

I find it interesting that they are flying the confederate Battle Flag (most people fly it upside down I might add) and not the actual Confederate flag. Which just goes to show how truly ignorant these people are.

[Motor Jax]

i haven't seen the video as it is youtube, and i'm at work where they disabled youtube links

[ElstonGunn]

I don't understand how flags mean anything. They're just pieces of multi-colored (unless you're Libya) cloth that has no power to force a judgment on the part of a sentient individual. Any pride or gripes you have about them are rooted in your own interpretation of what the flag stands for.


Why does the South need it's own flag? I don't need a symbol to show that I grew up in the Midwest....

It's not a flag, but you do have corn as a symbol, don't you? :p


I find it interesting that they are flying the confederate Battle Flag (most people fly it upside down I might add) and not the actual Confederate flag. Which just goes to show how truly ignorant these people are.

I had to look that up to figure out what you were talking about. It was interesting. Thanks for provoking the research.

[Zadoc]

i personally don't mind the Confederate Battle Flag displayed... i grew up under it my whole life... and i even have black friends back home that both fly it and wear it on their clothes... it gives me a very, VERY great sense of pride whenever i see that, and i just feel at home...

...but that's just me... to me, it isn't a statement of racism or slavery, but of unity of a common brotherhood of being Sons of the South...

so, being born in Tampa and knowing they fly this (being southern myself anyways) doesn't really bother me...

the Confederate Battle Flag (which is the proper term for it) is still part of a lot of southern flags

now, the Texas Flag, the blue field with the single white star was the first unofficial Flag of the Confedaracy... it was called the Bonnie Blue Flag, which was actually started in South Florida and ended up in the Texas State Flag, it being called the Lone Star State... go figure...



That's not entirely accurate. While the Bonnie Blue flag was the first "unofficial" flag of the Confederacy, it was born as the flag of the Independent Republic of West Florida.

It did inspire the initial Texas flag, which was called the Burnet Flag, but the Flag of Texas has more of an influence from the Stars and Stripes.

[Motor Jax]

tks for that Zadoc, for making that a bit more clear... it has been a while since i actually loked into the history of it...

[meanlittlechimp]

and i even have black friends back home that both fly it and wear it on their clothes...

Wow... Tell them not to rock that shit in Brooklyn, cause they'll catch a serious beatdown in the wrong neighborhood.

When I see the Confederate flag I think of slavery, tenant farming, sharecropping, the KKK, racism, segregation, lynch mobs, and a region of the United States that's still one of the most socially backwards places in the first world because it's been used to represent all of those things.

Agree with this completely.

I went to college in the south for a few months and it was rather surprising how many people there still refer to the Civil war as the "War of Northern Aggression." It's surprising how many there are still resentful about it. What I don't get it is, do they really wish they seceded from the union? or keep slaves? or do they just like the idea of being different from the north?

Are they proud they were the last holdouts to resist integration in the 60's? Are they proud of their lynchings? Don't they realize this same flag was waved by the same people participating in these actions. The outstanding writers, musicians, scholars etc that came out of the region, would probably not feel the need to wave that flag around or show unity with other southerners in general.

The folks I see usually waving that flag around, are typically rednecks, bikers, gangs, white nationalists/racists and the less savory members of the southern populace. I did run into a few people who did sport the flag in my time in the south, but they didn't appear very educated or socially mobile. I've also seen a few people in the north sport the flag (indoors where it's not obvious), but they were ALL racists (not saying this is true of all southerners who do however). Racists skinhead types love that flag along with the Swastika, whether they live in Vermont or Oregon.

For the ones that are proud of their southern heritage, what are they proud of exactly. Northerners aren't proud they are from the north. Maybe their city or hometown, but not the "north" in general. It's an odd thing to be proud about. Are people in Utah proud to be from the "West".

[Beery Swine]

I don't think most people posting here bothered to check out Ool's flag. If they did they would see the double standard.

I thought about making a comparison to the WWII Japanese internments with a hypothetical flag that the pro-internmentists (?) may have used, but that pails next to his. For those defending this incident, why not fly the swastika alongside a synagogue?

[Pirate1650]

1. It is private property and they can fly any flag they want.

2. I'm from the North East, a Yank if you will, and a little reading into history will reveal that the war wasn't about slavery initially. From my understanding the federal government was not as strong at the time and the different states were acting with a little more autonomy. Naturally over vast spans of land there will be different opinions on how to deal with their local problems. So, the "North" decided since they don't live in the "South" they could tax them more and impose other unfair items. The south had less political clout to defend themselves with and somebody got angery enough to start shooting which started the whole silly war. The victors are the ones who end up writing the history and I think it has been skewed, at least what I was taught in high school was. From what I can tell, General Robert E. Lee was one of the greatest Generals America has produced and was apparently the most loved by his troops as well, as an American, even though he was fighting for the South, I can respect that. I also try to think what it would be like if my great-grandfather and my great-granduncle were killed fighting for something they believe in, even if by todays standards it is considered wrong. I think I would be proud of what they did and if anything they believe in their version of America so strongly that they were willing to risk their lives to challenge the government, similar to the Revolutionaries. How would they (the Revolutionaries) have been viewed if they had lost?

3. It was at one point a recognized North American flag with its own government and currency and thus a part of the culture and history. Just as I'm sure Texas has some places that use it's old flag and there must be others.

[zibber]

Geez.. the first and foremost question that needs to be asked: did the confederate flag exist before the anti-emancipation movement? Is racism intrinsically connected to it? It's unfair that a general symbol of a people can be appropriated by a particularly evil section of that people and leave it stained like this. Knee-jerk responses to this act are to be expected from the mass, but I hate to see them on here.. ("Don't show that shit in Brooklyn"? Really? You're tough like that?) The only reason it's hurtful to people is because those people, wrongly, only associate it with negative things. That's too bad, but it's on them.


For the ones that are proud of their southern heritage, what are they proud of exactly. Northerners aren't proud they are from the north. Maybe their city or hometown, but not the "north" in general. It's an odd thing to be proud about. Are people in Utah proud to be from the "West".

You use this as just another argument contra the rebel flag, but doesn't this go for any flag? In any event, you'd have to concede that "the South" is quite a distinctive region. I think regional pride is ultimately irrational or at least arbitrary, but what's the harm in it? Don't say "it promotes racism" or anything silly like that, because that would amount to gross generalization and stereotyping of the southern states.

[Ool]

You use this as just another argument contra the rebel flag, but doesn't this go for any flag? In any event, you'd have to concede that "the South" is quite a distinctive region. I think regional pride is ultimately irrational or at least arbitrary, but what's the harm in it? Don't say "it promotes racism" or anything silly like that, because that would amount to gross generalization and stereotyping of the southern states.

One might be forgiven for such stereotyping, considering their propensity, even today, to vote for the fear-mongering, reactionary aristocrat.

Maybe you could raise the argument of diversiveness among the population and shades of gray again if they ever go for the candidate for leader of the country who isn’t a natural born lyncher.

Strange values of vindictiveness in that place…





Ool added to this post, 21 minutes and 17 seconds later...

[…] So, the "North" decided since they don't live in the "South" they could tax them more and impose other unfair items. The south had less political clout to defend themselves with and somebody got angery enough to start shooting which started the whole silly war. […]

Yeah, but there was an economic reason for that, and it was directly related to slavery. If you are allowed to own your workforce, making them toil for you for nothing but food and shelter, then you can, of course, make enormous savings, allowing you to underbid your competitors in the North on the free market. They, in turn, were forced to either find free farmhands working for just as little as slaves or to go out of business or to slap tariffs on imports from the South.

So, you see, slavery wasn’t just a local problem. Just as outsourcing to sweatshops abroad today, it had repercussions for all blue collar workers and those who hired them, even in other states, diminishing everyone’s quality of life.

You may make the cynical assumption that people in the North didn’t really care about the plight of enslaved people in the South. And maybe you’re right. But they certainly were concerned about how it translated into hardship for themselves.

So even if it was merely economic reasons that made them fight the Civil War, slavery was still the root cause of those economic motivations…

[Riverratt]

I am a southerner...

I was born and raised here.....

I can trace my ancestors all the way back to the 1700's.

I have direct descendants, that fought at Gettysburg, actually, they where in the lead elements of Pickett's charge. (and many other battles, including "wilderness")

My family was also directly effected by Sherman's March.

Actually, I am named after the commander of my great, great, great, grandfather's unit. (he named his son after him, and so on..)

I can recall MY, grandmother, talking about how the "yankees" came thru, and burned and STOLE things from her grandmothers home. She spoke with pure hatred toward "Yankees"

None of my ancestors owned slaves, actually they did not care. It was the idea that someone (the north) was "invading" their homeland that set them off.

I, do not veiw the Confedrate flag as a symbol of division, I veiw it as the banner, my forefathers carried into battle, for THEIR home. I hurts me deeply that none of us, who understood what that flag really ment, and allowed the Klan, and other racist groups to "hijack" its meaning. We southerners should have stood up, and decried it use as such, but we didn't

So now we pay the price.

[Ool]

[…] None of my ancestors owned slaves, actually they did not care. It was the idea that someone (the north) was "invading" their homeland that set them off. […]

“My country, right or wrong,” eh?

Well, all this local patriotism and cries for independence and freedom would ring a lot less hollow if it hadn’t involved preserving a system in which a part of the population was kept more dependent and less free than anyone else in the country…

You see, if the police came bashing down my door then I would be outraged at them. But my sentiments would change rather radically if I discovered that my roommate was holding someone prisoner in the basement. If my attitude towards the law enforcement infringing on my privacy wouldn’t change at that moment then it would be myself, too, who is of rather objectionable morals.

So the idea that “they did not care” is actually rather disturbing…

[meanlittlechimp]

You use this as just another argument contra the rebel flag, but doesn't this go for any flag? In any event, you'd have to concede that "the South" is quite a distinctive region. I think regional pride is ultimately irrational or at least arbitrary, but what's the harm in it? Don't say "it promotes racism" or anything silly like that, because that would amount to gross generalization and stereotyping of the southern states.
I don't think there is any harm in regional pride. It's just a waste of time mostly.

I think the swastika and the confederate flag should be waved proudly, by those that support it, so I know who's who. I personally, would rather know. But I could see how it could be offensive to others.


I, do not veiw the Confedrate flag as a symbol of division, I veiw it as the banner, my forefathers carried into battle, for THEIR home. I hurts me deeply that none of us, who understood what that flag really ment, and allowed the Klan, and other racist groups to "hijack" its meaning. We southerners should have stood up, and decried it use as such, but we didn't

So now we pay the price.
That's the whole problem. The swastika is an old design which was found in both buddhist and Hindu religions. But after Hitler co-opted it, it's kinda ruined.

Same with the confederate flag. When it's typically waved it's done so by racists (though it's not always). Secondly, even though your family never had slaves, a lot of other families did. And when many black people see the confederate flag they are reminded of that era, the way jews are reminded of gas chambers when they see the swastika.

Unfair I know, but there are more important issues to get worried about. True, the South felt the ravages of the Civil War. But compared to the generations of slavery, lynchings etc. I think the white south, can kind of let this flag thing slide. It's like Germans waving swastikas to protest the bombing of Dresden, pointless.

[Pirate1650]

I can recall MY, grandmother, talking about how the "yankees" came thru, and burned and STOLE things from her grandmothers home. She spoke with pure hatred toward "Yankees"

None of my ancestors owned slaves, actually they did not care. It was the idea that someone (the north) was "invading" their homeland that set them off.

I, do not veiw the Confedrate flag as a symbol of division, I veiw it as the banner, my forefathers carried into battle, for THEIR home. I hurts me deeply that none of us, who understood what that flag really ment, and allowed the Klan, and other racist groups to "hijack" its meaning. We southerners should have stood up, and decried it use as such, but we didn't

This is what I was trying to say but I don't think I did it so well. Even though I am one of those crazy "Yankees" myself, I can see both sides of the argument and since they are all Americans to me and bravery is bravery, I think there is plenty to be proud about on both sides so I don't see why people knock the stars and bars all the time just because they had slaves at some point, the North had slaves once too.

[Ool]

This is what I was trying to say but I don't think I did it so well. Even though I am one of those crazy "Yankees" myself, I can see both sides of the argument and since they are all Americans to me and bravery is bravery, […]

Also they did manage to kill more Northerners than the North killed Southerners. So as far as bodycount is concerned the South won.

Come to think of it, measured by number of enemy soldiers killed Germany won World War Two. And the Russians lost…

[thegnat]

I'd also like to point out in this thread that history is learned differently in the South than it is in the North. My grandpa from Virginia married someone from Ohio. She was a librarian. They compared history texts. Theirs were completely different. Like the Northern textbooks would villainize the South and vice versa and the North would make the Union look like a hero and vice versa. So we get pre-conceptions handed down to us from generations that may have some truth to them or may be hyperbole. So of course some Southerners would be proud to wave the Confederate battle flag. It doesn't mean they stand for slavery, the KKK, whatever else people may think it stands for.

And speaking of families, I can trace that side back to 1798. Some person in that family probably fought in the Civil War for the South. My grandparents spoke about it little though. Though I know our neighbors in WV are proud to have relatives who fought in the Civil War. I remember them saying something about it...heh, our relatives probably fought together. I kinda remember something like that being told to me. Anyway, they've always been nice to us and good family friends (that side of the family is still in VA/WV/NC). The other half of my family rarely talks about the Civil War. They're from Ohio/Indiana. So I can see both sides.

Personally, if someone wants to wave the Confederate flag, I have no problem with it.

(born and raised in Ohio here)

[wolf]

Yeah, but there was an economic reason for that, and it was directly related to slavery. If you are allowed to own your workforce, making them toil for you for nothing but food and shelter, then you can, of course, make enormous savings, allowing you to underbid your competitors in the North on the free market. They, in turn, were forced to either find free farmhands working for just as little as slaves or to go out of business or to slap tariffs on imports from the South.
Slavery, unlike outsourcing, is unsustainable. Technically, outsourcing is also unsustainable, but that's more complex to explain.

Slavery died naturally in England due to it becoming uneconomical, they never needed to create a law and force an issue. In the US it was already pretty shaky - you had to take really good care of slaves, as they cost an enormous amount and were akin to very expensive farming machinery of today. Worse yet, slaves were really expensive to buy and maintain, no matter how cheaply you did everything. Most former slaves went right back to working for their former masters after the civil war, only now they were paid less than their care cost and had to handle their expenses themselves. They became an economic slave, like rich northerners like, rather than a cradle-to-grave care slave.

Slavery is very misunderstood around the world, and particularly here, because the winners wrote the history books, and the only accounts we hear are the worst (the vast majority of these are completely fabricated).

Slavery would have died by becoming uneconomical within 10-20 years from the start of the civil war, and would have been completely destroyed by mechanization.

You may make the cynical assumption that people in the North didn’t really care about the plight of enslaved people in the South. And maybe you’re right. But they certainly were concerned about how it translated into hardship for themselves.
No, they didn't care about them, and they didn't care about the effects, because it genuinely didn't affect them. See, they basically made one of their still-common uppity gestures using their voting power, then when the south said "hey, we didn't sign on to get dictated to by a bunch of rich northerners", they cut ties. It was Northern Aggression, pure and simple (in fact, they are being really polite calling it this), that caused the war. Abraham Lincoln not only has the blood of the people who died in the War of Northern Aggression on his hands, but also the blood of the people who died in every war the US participated in on foreign soil that wasn't in retaliation for an attack on our citizens. This includes nearly every war we've been involved in since then, save a couple. They were all illegal wars, starting with the War of Northern Aggression. Abraham Lincoln went directly against the constitution because he was an evil warmonger, and set a precedent for ignoring the constitution of the United States whenever convenient. Every person that died in the middle east due to our wars there, every person that died on 9/11, every person in Vietnam, Cambodia, Kosovo, Somalia, all across Europe, Central and South America, island nations around the world... Every one can be traced back to and blamed on one fool: Abraham Lincoln.

He didn't care about slaves, only about imperialism. He'd been personally snubbed, and it was a personal vendetta. It was almost as unpopular in the north as it was in the south, too. Basically, he alone is to blame for screwing up a great nation.

[Riverratt]

Those of you that want to vilify the south for slavery is forgetting a couple of important FACTS..

First off, The LAST slave state, was West Virginia....a NORTHERN STATE, it was even admitted to the union, as a slave state..... The "Emancipation Proclamation" only freed the slaves in "rebelling states" it did not free "yankee slaves", even tho in most northern states slavery was illegal, but not ALL, yankee states where "free states"


Secondly, He who wins the war, gets to write the history books on it.....

Thirdly, Up until just a few years BEFORE the civil war, Slaves where still legally held in most northern states.

Also, we have in Lincon's writings, where he says, that if allowing the south to keep their slaves, would have kept them in the union, he would have done so.

[Ool]

Slavery would have died by becoming uneconomical within 10-20 years from the start of the civil war, and would have been completely destroyed by mechanization.

Some say it would not only have survived but, in fact, did survive for a lot longer than that...

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[Mozzes]

even tho in most northern states slavery was illegal, but not ALL, yankee states where "free states"


Thirdly, Up until just a few years BEFORE the civil war, Slaves where still legally held in most northern states.

Could you clarify what you mean?

Also a few points to consider. The first is that regional debate over slavery dates back at least to the constitutional convention in 1787 when the 3/5 clause was adopted and the legality of the African slave trade was extended. The Missouri compromise and the compromise of 1850 are also instances where slavery was a point regional conflict and resolution. It had been an issue since the founding of the country and to think that the war wasn't fought at least IN PART because of slavery, for economic and electoral if not moral reasons, is foolish.

It's not just slavery that was the problem either. The south was a morass of economic and political inequality. Sharecropping and tenant farming were southern institutions that affected a majority of whites and were in many ways as bad as slavery. Actually, in some ways they may have been worse than slavery since they persisted until the end of the second world war nearly 80 years longer than legal slavery.

Also the whole tirade about "The War of Northern Aggression" is bullshit. Or, at least, the conclusions drawn about it. US foreign conflicts since the civil war can't be "blamed" on Lincoln. The first reason is because one is attempting to compare the actions of a leader in response to an internal conflict to actions in response to foreign conflict. The other reason is because the undeclared involvement of US forces (in particular, on foreign soil) at least dates back to the administration of Thomas Jefferson and the Barbary Wars 60 years before the civil war.

[wolf]

The War of Northern Aggression was not an internal conflict.

[Mozzes]

The War of Northern Aggression was not an internal conflict.

How would you define it?

Also, I find it quite ironic how southern apologist are so quick to make the Northern Bullies out as the devil in a conflict that was supposedly over a way of life that nobody alive has even experience and that happened before anybody that anybody knows was even alive and yet they don't have a tear to spare for native Americans which were suffering from European and American aggression generations before the American civil war are still an oppressed and suffering minority.

[Feng]

First of all I'd really like to ask... why do people make such a big deal out of an approx. 150 year old war? ;P
It's right up there with religion and politics for Americans it seems sometimes (a bloody mess half the time someone even hints at it).

Ignoring the leadership (slavery, "war of northern aggression," and whatever else you care to bring up) the soldiers on both sides, as with most wars, fought for survival. The Confederate soldiers fought to preserve their physical home, and the Union soldiers fought to preserve, well, their union... and probably their capital (DC is only a few lightyears away from Virginia, right?). :P

I really do think you can be proud of having an ancestor who fought on the Confederate side, and be proud of that, without doing something wrong...I really do... and without meaning "I stand for everything the Confederacy stood for," I might add.

A song that might help get the concept across (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

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Why act as if identification and pride in being from "The South," is unusual? Yes, most other larger regions (of the US) lack the degree of self-identification and pride many "Southerners" hold to their region, but look at it elsewhere. Sports teams may be the most blatant example (regional pride and identification is a large part of what causes their popularity among spectators). It makes far more sense to me for a person to take pride in and identify with a unique culture, a unique people, which they were raised in.

The South was colonized by different people than the rest of the US, society developed differently, it has its own peculiar accent(s) and dialect(s), it has its own cuisine, its own history, its own literature, and even different languages were spoken (in a sense, still are). This is like every other part of the US, I would think. This is ignoring that the "South" became somewhat isolated after the US Civil War. I'd honestly say for nearly 100 years (obviously, it would develop somewhat separately during this time). That doesn't just go away.

Having said that, Southerners do have a history and culture that separates them more from their fellow Americans to a degree (especially in more rural areas). It never had as much immigration as most areas of the US, although, in a sense, we've had a reversal of that as of late, except it is Americans moving to the South. With all of the movement across the US (blame air conditioning for part of that) and the ability to communicate over large distances, yes, the lines between regions are blurring (something some Americans often have a tendency to forget, and others to ignore). Despite this, the South remains distinct from the rest of the US in many ways.

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and the flag itself...
"I find it interesting that they are flying the confederate Battle Flag (most people fly it upside down I might add) and not the actual Confederate flag. Which just goes to show how truly ignorant these people are."

There's a REASON the battle flag is the only Confederate flag considered controversial. It's the only one ANYONE can identify (don't ignore the other side of the coin). :P
Well, part of why anyhow. The other half is the CSA "official" / government flags don't have the stigma fueled by things like the media... they can know what it is and their eyes still don't turn red with anger/disgust/madness like they do at the battle flag (thus the reason the official flag is also known as the "politically correct" flag). At least, I can only assume it has something to do with the media... though, honestly, I'm at a loss for the exact reason. One would think the official government flag of a past nation they see as racist to be more offensive than the battle flag (one should represent the soldiers themselves less, and the other had little part in law-making or official policy).

Personally, I have always found the "racist stigma" of the battle flag hilarious, given its origins. One of the key men behind it (P.G.T. Beauregard, one of the... I believe 7 full generals of the Confederacy), if not THE key man behind it, pushed for political freedoms for the black population well ahead of its time (I am referring to nearly King-level equality). I will not claim he failed to be very racist (most people on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line were, at the time); he was simply pragmatic and far-sighted. In spite of his racism, and in spite of whatever valid reasons people may have to associate it with slavery, there is more than a bit of irony in the connotations of the Confederate battle flag.
Note: If my claim above sounds odd, it should be noted he was a native of Greater New Orleans (if that means nothing to you, feel free to remain as you were)

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"For the ones that are proud of their southern heritage, what are they proud of exactly. Northerners aren't proud they are from the north. Maybe their city or hometown, but not the "north" in general. It's an odd thing to be proud about. Are people in Utah proud to be from the "West"."

What makes being proud of your region any more absurd than being proud of your nation, city, or hometown? The Irish show pride in the county they're from (those I have known, at any rate), and I find no oddity in it. Another example is Belgium. The Flemish (think Dutch) and Waloons (think French) tend to identify far more as being from their region than their nation/government. This is to the point of, when asked where they are from, it is not uncommon for them to state their region. Given the history and far greater differences between them (like, say, language) than the greater/larger US regions, I do not attempt to directly compare them. I simply mean to say that a difference in culture more than "justifies" (as if it needed justification) an identity separate from one's nation. As for the comparison to Northerners lacking pride in their general region, here's the thing: Southerners are NOT Northerners (back to there being a mentality and cultural difference in between the two).

Personally, I consider myself a "Louisianian" first, then a Southerner, and only after that an American. This has nothing to do with loyalty; it is largely a matter of identification. When I speak, what do people hear? Even with my accent weaker than most in my family, I am identified as a Southerner. When I think of my favourite foods, I think of food that's either not that well known or not well liked and often somewhat difficult to obtain (or prepare) outside of Louisiana or an area near it. Many of my interests also fit my region (hint: the state has rivers, lakes, and the Gulf). Am I defined by the culture I was raised into? No. Is it a part of who I am? Certainly.

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"The folks I see usually waving that flag around, are typically rednecks, bikers, gangs, white nationalists/racists and the less savory members of the southern populace. I did run into a few people who did sport the flag in my time in the south, but they didn't appear very educated or socially mobile."

As for your belief of most people who use/wave/wear the Confederate battle flag being racist, you are going by personal experience (which your words indicate, rightly or wrongly, to be limited). My own experience would say something else, partly in agreement, but mostly in disagreement. First, please keep in mind segregation in the South only occurred around 50 years ago. Now, what if most of the people using the flag (in the south-eastern US) were either using it as a sign of rebellion (think bikers), or they were traditional-minded in some manner (the two groups found in most of my experiences). Now, of those traditionally-minded, yes, you are going to find some "racists," mostly among the older generations (back to the 50 years detail). For example, I know some traditionalists (waving a flag or not) who are technically opposed to interracial marriage, but at the same time, don't impose that opinion on others. And you know what? I'm fine with that. There is a minority who are KKK-like (white supremists, if you will), but they are just that in my experience, the minority. I will admit though, that a vocal minority is often more obvious than a passive majority. I find most Southerners to not find a need to run around waving any flag while yelling out their opinions or beliefs to everyone within earshot... though I find it fairly common to find people wearing clothing with the symbol (CSA battle flag) on it, which they think little of.

As for "There's nothing that makes one U.S. geographical region better than another."... may I direct you to a quote that will hopefully explain the mentality.

My culture is no better than anybody else's culture. My people were no better than anybody else. And yet I will not accept it as a second-class culture. It's my culture. It's the best culture for me. Now, I would expect, if you have a different culture, that you would feel the same about yours as I feel about mine.
--Dewey Balfa (Cajun Musician)

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Was the Civil War fought partly due to slavery? The answer is an obvious yes (no matter how you look at it, a strong economic factor would have to, given many of the other arguments always made on both sides). The error is in believing the Confederacy stands for slavery because it held it in the very few years of its existence (note that Americans very rarely find the US flag offensive), along with the common belief the Confederacy would have kept slavery for a long time, had it not been forced to eliminate the slave system.

We do not, and cannot, know what would have taken place with slavery, had the Confederacy survived. For example, due to their weakened state from separating from the Union, they would want (require?) international recognition, and increased diplomatic strength. Slavery did not exactly help with this. Then they might have industrialized, if the Union wouldn't trade with them (a common happening when the US dislikes a nation, even now). They might not have been locked into the use of black workers (free or slave) if their nation had not been ruined. Finally, the racist happenings (such as slow acceptance of segregation) people are quick to point from the South's past might never have happened if it had not been forced on the white population (I'm not going into the accuracy or one-sidedness of such statements, but even assuming they're completely accurate). After all, what people would accept an extreme socio-economic change being forced on them? It is pure speculation on our part to say what would have happened, had the Confederacy survived, and foolishness to bring up what happened long after the Civil War as being linked to the Confederacy (the opposite might be true).

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"Also, I find it quite ironic how southern apologist are so quick to make the Northern Bullies out as the devil in a conflict that was supposedly over a way of life that nobody alive has even experience and that happened before anybody that anybody knows was even alive and yet they don't have a tear to spare for native Americans which were suffering from European and American aggression generations before the American civil war are still an oppressed and suffering minority."

erm... that's the rule. I am of a minority group, give me something (forget the other minorities). I am from a state with taxes I want lowered (who cares about the other states?). You harmed me in some way (who cares about the others who have been or are being treated worse?). My life is a horrible mess, I am depressed (who cares if my life is, objectively, far better than most people in the world?). *insert random examples here* People tend to think of themselves, and whatever groups they consider themselves a part of (but, again, mostly themselves). Sad? Probably. Ironic? Hardly.

Oh, and pelicans rule (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

[Riverratt]

Could you clarify what you mean?


Yes, from my post, West Virginia, was accepted to the Union, as a slave state....it was STILL a slave state after the Civil War was over...

I have read accounts of slavery in WVA lasting until 1867, well after the 13th Amendment was passed in 1865. Also I have read articles that spoke of slavery existing in New Jersey until 1865

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Scroll to the bottom of the article, where it talks about "apprentices for life", and how a simple term change, allowed New Jersey to be a "free" state, but still keep some slaves.



Does that help???

[Beery Swine]

I'd also like to point out in this thread that history is learned differently in the South than it is in the North. My grandpa from Virginia married someone from Ohio. She was a librarian. They compared history texts. Theirs were completely different. Like the Northern textbooks would villainize the South and vice versa and the North would make the Union look like a hero and vice versa. So we get pre-conceptions handed down to us from generations that may have some truth to them or may be hyperbole.

That's news to me. I'm from Texas and think the south was full of $#!+. I'm not doubting your word, it sounds just like something that would develop, I'm just amazed to hear it. I can't stand the rebel flags or whatever and I generally think that people who flaunt them are redneck douchebags (not meaning to offend anyone, just giving my honest opinion). If there's also an incongruity in education here I totally missed it. I almost (but not quite, thank god) wish that I could go back to school and be more mindful of this to see how things are.

[meanlittlechimp]

Also they did manage to kill more Northerners than the North killed Southerners. So as far as bodycount is concerned the South won.


Fascinating, I had no idea. Seems odd considering the advantage the North had re: armaments and monies to fund the war. I seem to recall the North outnumbering the south in the majority of the battles.

Just goes to show how great the Southern military leadership was from a tactical perspective. When I was a kid I always rooted for the south (in movies) because of my weakness for underdogs and the southern generals just seemed way cooler.

[deusexmachina]

I read about this last month. I am from Georgia, where the more intelligent citizens refer to this types of people as "flaggots" or losers. And that they are. They eat, breathe and sleep the Confederate battle flag from the time they wake up in the morning, knock the beer cans out of the way and roll off the couch.
A very small and insignificant minority of ancestor-worshippers.

[Motor Jax]

i have family in Georgia, btw... but i am, by no means, racist or a bigot... it is based off of ignorance, to say the least though

[Ool]

Fascinating, I had no idea. Seems odd considering the advantage the North had re: armaments and monies to fund the war. I seem to recall the North outnumbering the south in the majority of the battles.

Just goes to show how great the Southern military leadership was from a tactical perspective. When I was a kid I always rooted for the south (in movies) because of my weakness for underdogs and the southern generals just seemed way cooler.

But the whole point is, the North had industry. The South had slaves. Industry beats slavery.

The Roman Empire never progressed towards an industrialized society because they could never imagine building their nation with anything other than human muscle power. And when that failed all their great achievements in aqueducts-building and public sanitation just vanished and all the great literature of the Classical Age was lost for a millennium.

Nothing beats technological progress and sustainable energy feeding that technology.

[zibber]

You know what's funny? The Netherlands, back when it was at the global economic forefront in the 17th century and started flirting with imperialism, had a great hand in establishing the slave trade. Why is it that our flag isn't villified?

Also, and I know how unfair this may seem, but wasn't the entire USA founded on the mass genocide of the native inhabitants of the land? Does the denouncing of slavery and icons associated with that take precedence?

It's interesting that there is such polarization here, in demonizing certain icons while barely questioning others. The nazi flag is obviously offensive (and was never unrelated to nazism, I think, the specific red/white/black swastika motif), but I think that icons somehow related to historical facts like slavery deserve some slack. Very few people questioned slavery back when it was happening, it's not like there's one morally completely pure party in this story. Human history is riddled with all sorts of ugliness, because that's our whole origin. We seem mostly to be past all of that brutality now, so maybe some day we can drop the need to villify certain icons in order to reaffirm our own moral righteousness.

[deusexmachina]

But the whole point is, the North had industry. The South had slaves. Industry beats slavery.

The Roman Empire never progressed towards an industrialized society because they could never imagine building their nation with anything other than human muscle power. And when that failed all their great achievements in aqueducts-building and public sanitation just vanished and all the great literature of the Classical Age was lost for a millennium.

Nothing beats technological progress and sustainable energy feeding that technology.

Agreed. And, in my view, that is why the North was morally superior to the South. Now, revisionists will claim that the South seceded on a principled doctrine of state's rights. But it begs the question. What rights? And for whom? You do not have the right to secede so that you can perpetuate an economic system that relies on the enslavement of other human beings (feudalism, essentially).
So the North had every right to invade the South and crush it. Whatever atrocities may have been committed-- and I am sure there were, on both sides-- pale in comparison to the good achieved by victory of the idea of a free capitalist society over one of servitude.

-Peter

[Beery Swine]

You know what's funny? The Netherlands, back when it was at the global economic forefront in the 17th century and started flirting with imperialism, had a great hand in establishing the slave trade. Why is it that our flag isn't villified?

Nations grow and change and grow and change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, but the southern secession was all about people digging their heels in and not wanting to progress. I think it's a slightly different situation.

Also, and I know how unfair this may seem, but wasn't the entire USA founded on the mass genocide of the native inhabitants of the land? Does the denouncing of slavery and icons associated with that take precedence?

Not exactly. The original 13 British colonies were, but America was basically founded as a bunch of land-owning people (albeit white male land-owning people) sick of paying taxes to an already wealthy king 3,000 miles away. It was expanded by mass genocide and displacing entire cultures. What is that, "culturecide," or something? There's probably a word for it but I'm just too lazy to look it up.

[blckprljinju]

I watched that last night, as well. I'm not a very big fan of that flag because of what it used to stand for. Why does the South need it's own flag? I don't need a symbol to show that I grew up in the Midwest....

last time i checked, the North won the civil war... and technically, the "Confederate states of America" lost... rolled over and died.

In my humble opinion, the South doesn't have the right to fly the confederate flag. I'm not saying this just because, but as a Southern Virginian and Asian, I always felt very very uncomfortable seeing the confederate flag on back of rusted trucks and things because I knew what it stood for, and I do not particularly believe "losing a war" constituted a legitimate reason for pride.

Maybe they all slept during history class...

[Riverratt]

I do not particularly believe "losing a war" constituted a legitimate reason for pride.

Maybe they all slept during history class...


Than your Southern parent FAILED, to impart the pride that being a Virginian entails....

Our shared history is rich, the Civil War is only a tiny part of it. We are a unique people here. With much to be proud of.

Your "history class" and Parents did you disservice.

[blckprljinju]

Than your Southern parent FAILED, to impart the pride that being a Virginian entails....

Our shared history is rich, the Civil War is only a tiny part of it. We are a unique people here. With much to be proud of.

Your "history class" and Parents did you disservice.

First of all, it's not "THAN", it's "THEN". Second, read my comment correctly; I did say I was Asian. My parents are Asians; first-generation Immigrants, in fact. They're not southern by default; however, they certainly experienced enough of "southern hospitality" that still exist, like racial slurs and discrimination just because they didn't sound like "100% American". If you are suggesting that such things should be viewed as something to be proud of, then I do not believe there is anything else to be said.

I never mentioned one word about Virginia and Pride in relation to each other. I understand Virginia's rich culture, and the amount of American Indians (or whatever they want to be called these days)' blood that went into creating such unique culture... but that's not strictly what the topic's about.

Confederate flag is not and should not have anything to do with such "rich" (whatever you may mean) culture of Virginia other than its historical context of seceding from the United States of America, violating their vows to the US Constitution, and continuing to enforce a humanly cruel practice of slavery.

My parents may have done disservice to me by deciding to settle in Virginia instead of going to some northern states, perhaps.

My "history" class was merely following the "SOL" guidelines, and other VA state guidelines. If that's the case, then it's Virginia who has done me disservice, because it's such a great state that chose to close down schools rather than allow desegregation after the decision in Brown v. Board of Education. It's highly disappointing that you allowed your bias to overtake logic.

[Mozzes]

First of all, it's not "THAN", it's "THEN". Second,

Pfft. Maybe in English. I guess you didn't learn to speak Dixie in the time you've lived in the South?

[blckprljinju]

Pfft. Maybe in English. I guess you didn't learn to speak Dixie in the time you've lived in the South?

It's not very difficult; every soda/pop is coke (you can also ask for sweet tea... which i do like actually), and you just extend the last syllable of every word to last twice as long as other syllable...

it does come with a side effect of other English speakers treating you as if you only have half a brain though..

[Beery Swine]

Than your Southern parent FAILED, to impart the pride that being a Virginian entails....

Our shared history is rich, the Civil War is only a tiny part of it. We are a unique people here. With much to be proud of.

Tell me about it. I'm a proud member of the Ku Klux Klan. We're an incredibly diverse people with a long and beautiful tradition but we so often get stereotyped as racists just because some people did some horrible things in the past, but that's not me or any Klan members that I know.

[Ool]

Not exactly. The original 13 British colonies were, but America was basically founded as a bunch of land-owning people (albeit white male land-owning people) sick of paying taxes to an already wealthy king 3,000 miles away.

And sick that the British East India Company got all the tax breaks while they didn’t, meaning their domestic production couldn’t compete with tea imports. That’s why they dumped the stuff overboard in the Boston harbor, after all…