Discrimination Against Atheists

[Antares]

I'm sure there are discrimination against theists in many places, especially on the internet, but out in the real world there seems to have many misconceptions or even outright hostility towards atheists.

'Practical atheism is not the denial of the existence of God, but complete godlessness of action; it is a moral evil, implying not the denial of the absolute validity of the moral law but simply rebellion against that law.' - Etienne Borne

In the United States, there is widespread disapproval of atheists. For example, according to motherjones.com, 52% of Americans claim they would not vote for a well-qualified atheist for president.

I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. - Georgie (My addition)

Arkansas' Constitution of 1874 (Article 19, Section 1) states: "Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness. No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court."

he Boy Scouts of America (BSA), the largest youth organization in the United States, has policies which prohibit atheists, agnostics, and "known or avowed" homosexuals from membership in its Scouting program; both youths and adults have had their memberships revoked as a result

I've even seen misconceptions here. For example, some theists seem to think that atheism is a form of rebellion or because we were psychologically flawed or dissatisfied (I'm not going to quote anyone for the sake of anonymity). This irks me greatly for reasons I'm sure are clear to most of you. Others argue that we hate God or our requests of personal gain has been denied. This isn't the case withe me nor most atheists I know. I've responded to a rather foolish inquiry on Yahoo Answers into why atheists are unhappy; I gave a rather curt advice telling her not to make assumptions about things to which she is ignorant. Just like I won't assume theists are despicable freaks of nature with no neurons to speak of (apparently many atheists think that), I would ask the same of theists here and everywhere.

[AutisticCuckoo]

I guess this is primarily an American phenomenon, since religion seems to have a lot more importance in your society than it does in Europe. Perhaps it's also common in some Islamic countries?

In my country (Sweden) no-one bats an eyelid about atheists or agnostics. In fact, I sometimes get the feeling that people who do believe in a god are slightly embarrassed to admit it.

[Antares]

I guess this is primarily an American phenomenon, since religion seems to have a lot more importance in your society than it does in Europe. Perhaps it's also common in some Islamic countries?

In my country (Sweden) no-one bats an eyelid about atheists or agnostics. In fact, I sometimes get the feeling that people who do believe in a god are slightly embarrassed to admit it.

Haha. Not my society. I'm not American. It's not that prominent in the Chinese society, and I'm glad I don't have to encounter the happenings people described in the Bible Belt, but even 'atheist' sounds a little negative here.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Ditto for Canada. There's not alot of discrimination against atheists or theists.

[Claptonian]

Arkansas' Constitution of 1874 (Article 19, Section 1) states: "Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness. No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court."

I believe that at least one other state has a similar passage in its constitution; they justify it by claiming it isn't enforced. :laugh:

I think most interesting is the recent study that showed that atheists are the least trusted group in America: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[PHS Philip]

I believe that at least one other state has a similar passage in its constitution; they justify it by claiming it isn't enforced. :laugh:

I think most interesting is the recent study that showed that atheists are the least trusted group in America: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts._constitution s

Being in the Northeast US (and in an Ivy league town) I don't personally encounter much hostility, but I suspect it would be different further south.

[thod]

Read a recent article about guys getting a hard time in the US army for being Atheist. Suing the military as a result.

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“People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!”

“They don’t trust you because they think you are unreliable and might break, since you don’t have God to rely on,”

One nation under God, or else. I am so glad I am not American.

[Karamazov]

Now, now

Not every American subscribes to Bible belt sentiment. It's the desperate grab to hold on to those dogmatic and sectarian "values" that make me cringe whenever any theological debate arises with other theists. Especially in my area of Texas.

[Claptonian]

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Being in the Northeast US (and in an Ivy league town) I don't personally encounter much hostility, but I suspect it would be different further south.

Everyone in my immediate family is an atheist. We lived outside D.C. until I was 8, and never encountered any problems. Then we moved to Arkansas; since then, virtually every friendship I've had has either ended or become tainted when the "friend" finds out I'm an atheist, and all sorts of rumors have been spread about my family.

My mom had a friend here who is an atheist; she's a mom, very nice, sweet and unassuming. Some fundamentalist woman started a rumor that she's a witch--not a new age, wiccan, pagan witch, but a Satan worshipping, broomstick riding, "I'll-get-you-my-pretty-and-your-little-dog-too" witch--and people believed it. :laugh:

So yeah, it really depends on where in the country you live. In the Bible belt, my experience is that you will be ostracized from most social circles.

[Karamazov]

Everyone in my immediate family is an atheist. We lived outside D.C. until I was 8, and never encountered any problems. Then we moved to Arkansas; since then, virtually every friendship I've had has either ended or become tainted when the "friend" finds out I'm an atheist, and all sorts of rumors have been spread about my family.

My mom had a friend here who is an atheist; she's a mom, very nice, sweet and unassuming. Some fundamentalist woman started a rumor that she's a witch--not a new age, wiccan, pagan witch, but a Satan worshipping, broomstick riding, "I'll-get-you-my-pretty-and-your-little-dog-too" witch--and people believed it. :laugh:

So yeah, it really depends on where in the country you live. In the Bible belt, you will be ostracized from most social circles.

I was reading the Communist Manifesto during a church luncheon once when I was 14 and I was pretty much pegged as an atheist. By myself, not bothering anybody, waiting to go home and a few parents at the function felt the need to "correct" my wrong line of thinking. I never told them I wasn't an atheist but I continued to debate them from that point of view. Needless to say, their only refuge was to continuing shouting me down with Biblical quotes whenever I tried to gear the discussion back on a reasonable and coherent track. Was was I thinking really. I'm pretty disillusioned when It comes to my fellow "brothers" and "sisters"

[Zadoc]

I'm sure there are discrimination against theists in many places, especially on the internet, but out in the real world there seems to have many misconceptions or even outright hostility towards atheists.


I would not only call it misconceptions, but downright hatred. There's a lack of understanding about what atheism is, but that's largely due to politicians and preachers dehumanizing and demonizing atheists, and blaming us for "evil" things like communism, homosexuality, saying that we worship devils, and other things that the easily led bigots can hate without remorse.

In a recent poll published in TIME Magazine, 48% of respondents would refuse to vote for an otherwise qualified person for President if they were an Atheist. That greater than the number for homosexuals, 37%.

Atheists are the last great minority in the United States where discrimination towards them is socially acceptable.

I think the reason why this is true is because an atheist is not immediately distinguishable from an theist, and may atheists are in the closet. If we become more vocal, and for a few PACs, we would then force politicians to pay us some sensitivity, and at the same time legitimize our presence as a large, nearly 12% (including agnostics) voting bloc in this country.

[PHS Philip]

Read a recent article about guys getting a hard time in the US army for being Atheist. Suing the military as a result.

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One nation under God, or else. I am so glad I am not American.

There've been a few bad cases in the military. Pat Tillman's case involved his family being insulted for an atheist by the investigator. There's also Wayne Adkins ( To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. the link to his documentation is there, too), and Jeremy Hall, just off the top of my head.

[Brutananadilewski]

I would not only call it misconceptions, but downright hatred. There's a lack of understanding about what atheism is, but that's largely due to politicians and preachers dehumanizing and demonizing atheists, and blaming us for "evil" things like communism, homosexuality, saying that we worship devils, and other things that the easily led bigots can hate without remorse.

An atheist's position puts a theists entire understanding of reality, life, death, etc, into question. Since most of them have been raised without the ability to keep a perspective to themselves (ie. their perspective must be, without question, be the correct one), they can't understand how anyone could believe anything else. It then ends up being them projecting their insecurities upon us: you call their entire understanding into question, they can't handle it, and project their insecurities onto you.

I don't see any way around it however, since atheism/theism goes to the very core of people's understanding of the universe and teh world around them, and many of them just cannot reconcile that such a baisc and integral tenet may be wrong.

[tp6626]

It then ends up being them projecting their insecurities upon us: you call their entire understanding into question, they can't handle it, and project their insecurities onto you.

I don't see any way around it however, since atheism/theism goes to the very core of people's understanding of the universe and teh world around them, and many of them just cannot reconcile that such a baisc and integral tenet may be wrong.

I agree with the first part; that alot of theists project their insecurities onto us when we question their beliefs.

However, even though there doesn't appear to be a way around it, that doesn't mean that athiests should stay silent. Quite the opposite, infact. I'm willing to bet that there is a way round it, and that religion on the whole is dying away slowly but surely (we need to speed this up by acting day to day!).

I make a point of pulling up and questioning anyone I come into contact with espousing theist beliefs. I don't care who they are, what they think they know, or how I think they may react.

It does take some courage to do that, which I guess is why its handy being an INTJ; I don't care what most people think of me (especially ones so narrow minded to discriminate against me for questioning something they are trying to promote).

I would encourage everyone here to take this approach as well. All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men [or women] to stay silent. Can't remember who said that, but I think it rings true especially in this case.

[Sara27]

I'm an American that was raised Christian. I changed my beliefs 10 years ago at a very wonderful time of my life. I took the questioning of my faith very seriously and it wasn't until a year of reflection that I said 'there's no such thing as god'.

It has been a struggle being an Atheist in a Christian/Catholic family and a predominately Christian industry (agriculture). I was half way through my PhD when the persecution from other grad students and professors was too much for me to take. I loved the research I was doing, but I was actively and passively attacked for being an Atheist. I tried completing my degree, but it was made clear by my advisor that no matter how smart I am and how much work I do I wouldn't get my degree unless I was part of the popular group. I left shortly after that.

I wish that here in America we truly had a seperation of church and state. It's a noble idea, but we're not there yet. As long as organizations that discriminate based on religion (i.e. - Boy Scouts) are funded by the government and churches are tax-exempt, we will not have a country that can boast of a true seperation of church and state. I hope that we will get there someday. Not just for myself as an Atheists, but for all the non-Christians in this country.

[tp6626]

Well, as my previous post stated - stand up for athiests and have the courage to question whenever you hear people promoting religious belief. You're obviously rationally minded, and will probably win most arguments with theists (although alot will withdraw under emotive display).

Check out To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. He seems to be making it his mission now to raise awareness in the USA. Good on him, but he needs help. Just need to get to a tipping point and we'll be laughing - lol!!!

[Sara27]

Since leaving the program I've been actively searching for Atheists to comiserate with and educating myself on all things Atheist. It's been fun and empowering, but I find myself asking "What now?" since I want to work in a new industry.

I have been speaking up about my beliefs. Right now my family is trying to save me through prayer. I ask them not to pray for me and explain that doing so does not repect my beliefs (or lack there of), but they just bring up the praying more often. I've been silent while they hit me over the head with their beliefs and now that I'm speaking up to defend myself I'm being rude. Ha!

[Claptonian]

I was reading the Communist Manifesto during a church luncheon once when I was 14 and I was pretty much pegged as an atheist. By myself, not bothering anybody, waiting to go home and a few parents at the function felt the need to "correct" my wrong line of thinking. I never told them I wasn't an atheist but I continued to debate them from that point of view. Needless to say, their only refuge was to continuing shouting me down with Biblical quotes whenever I tried to gear the discussion back on a reasonable and coherent track. Was was I thinking really. I'm pretty disillusioned when It comes to my fellow "brothers" and "sisters"

Good for you for not submitting to them, even if it was futile to try to keep things rational. I was much more F when I was younger and preferred to avoid the subject entirely, so I usually just joked my way out of any confrontation.

I think the constant barrage of people trying to pressure me into changing my beliefs was one of the contributing factors to me turning T. It's hard to promote harmony when everyone around you is treating you like you're either a poor lost soul in need of saving, or a devil worshipper. :laugh:

[Homini Lupus]

I was born in an historically anti-clerical area so it was almost the reverse. I had no real problems with it but it's quite normal to find people who think they are more intelligent than you just because they're atheists and you are a catholic. Most of my friends are atheists but they understood long ago it's best not to try to deny God's existance when I'm around (The discussion may get heated and I win more often than not).
Basically, I don't consider a theist better than an atheist, since I consider acts more important than words and my attitude is more similar to the atheist's one even if I came to different conclusions. This also generally means that I'm not liked very much by both groups.

[Antares]

I was born in an historically anti-clerical area so it was almost the reverse. I had no real problems with it but it's quite normal to find people who think they are more intelligent than you just because they're atheists and you are a catholic. Most of my friends are atheists but they understood long ago it's best not to try to deny God's existance when I'm around (The discussion may get heated and I win more often than not).
Basically, I don't consider a theist better than an atheist, since I consider acts more important than words and my attitude is more similar to the atheist's one even if I came to different conclusions. This also generally means that I'm not liked very much by both groups.

I understand that God is a touchy subject, but who got emotional? I wonder why it would be a heated discussion in the first place.

[sriv]

I understand that God is a touchy subject, but who got emotional? I wonder why it would be a heated discussion in the first place.

Some F types, when arguing their inner values/ideals/beliefs, argue emotionally. Understand that they do not argue for fact-checking per se, but defensively as if the one who challenged their beliefs is attacking them.

[Monte314]

Atheism is an umbrella term that refers to a collection of belief systems, the common element of which is an assertion about "god".

Does this mean that "atheism", as a belief system characterized entirely by its doctrine of "god", is a religion? Why or why not?

[thod]

Atheism is an umbrella term that refers to a collection of belief systems, the common element of which is an assertion about "god".

Does this mean that "atheism", as a belief system characterized entirely by its doctrine of "god", is a religion? Why or why not?

At first glance my reaction was to state that Atheism is not a belief system but a non belief system. However It strikes me that mine a belief system in itself.

Many theists make the mistake of believing it is something that is anti god. This is not the case, it is not simply a counter reaction to their beliefs. The god concept is a side issue.

My own form of belief states that the universe is governed by impersonal natural process. That things happen regardless of if I exist to observe them. That the universe does not care about me or my desires, or anything else. Thus we have a clockwork universe model, I may adjust that mechanism with my tampering but I cannot make it care.

This model negates the need for a guiding sentience in the same way that a watch does not need guidance to continue. Unlike the watch though, I do not see design, rather I see fundamental forces that have given rise to ordered patterns emergent from their interaction. Chaos was, and will be again, new patterns may arise but always the fundamental forces drive the universe.

I see the theist argument as a denial of this in order to find personal comfort. They want there to be some point to events. They are wedded to the idea of progress towards something. Nihilism is scary to them. So they turn to existentialism, decide that all perceived order is due to an external sentient entity and that there is a purpose to it all. For Christians it is to please God and reach heaven. For Buddhists to be virtuous and escape to Nirvana. The obvious question is how the Christian will find meaning once he is eternal in heaven. This question is always deferred assuming that they will know when they get there.

Perhaps I am wrong. Maybe there is a guiding force behind the world, maybe there is some purpose and meaning to it all. Yet I cant see it. Since it isn't necessary to my model, I require evidence that this extra something is there. Hence I am not anti god, I just dont see the point of him. Why introduce extra variables when observations are already satisfied.

[Homini Lupus]

I understand that God is a touchy subject, but who got emotional? I wonder why it would be a heated discussion in the first place.

I wasn't referring to this discussion in particular. But sometimes, being the only to sustain a certain (face to face, not in front of a screen typing) idea can trigger in me a "fight or flee" reaction. If I think the subject is important and the public worthy, i "fight". I use logical arguments but in an aggressive way. But generally the discussion is rather calm... most of the times people doesn't come to you telling that your rites are a form of magic (in catholic terms magic is referring to powers obtained by a blood pact with the devil) after all.

Or maybe I'm an emotional guy. It would be a surprise to me, but why bother?

[Claptonian]

Atheism is an umbrella term that refers to a collection of belief systems, the common element of which is an assertion about "god".

As thod touched on, atheism does not refer to a "collection of belief systems" nor does it require an "assertion about 'god'." Only positive atheism requires a positive belief or assertion.

Does this mean that "atheism", as a belief system characterized entirely by its doctrine of "god", is a religion? Why or why not?

It all depends on how you define "religion." I define it as a belief system revolving around a positive belief in a supernatural being or force and including some sort of philosophy of life or morality. By this definition, atheism (including positive atheism) cannot be considered a religion because it does not involve a belief in a supernatural being, nor does it include any philosophy of life or morality.

[BallentineChen]

I've never encountered any serious discrimination of atheists since I live in NYC, but does this also apply to agnostics?

It seems illogical to me to know anything with absolute certainty, I believe this applies to both sides of the argument.

[Monte314]

Claptonian -- good answer. Thanks.