A question for the men: love and sex.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I'm confused by this.....................

On the one hand I've had men tell me that they don't equate sex with love.
On the other hand, I've had these same men tell me that they express their love through sex.

Please explain.

[AutisticCuckoo]

Sex doesn't equate to love, it's just one out of many ways to show your love for one special person. At least that's how it is for me.

Sex is very intimate, you can't get physically closer to your partner than that. Bringing pleasure to your sweetheart is a gift of love.

Of course, many people have sex without love, as well. But that's different; that's more about satisfying your own needs than about giving something precious to your partner.

[stasis]

On the one hand I've had men tell me that they don't equate sex with love.
On the other hand, I've had these same men tell me that they express their love through sex.

Please explain.
Lust[] = {1, 2, 3, 4, SEX, 5, 6, 7, 8...};
Love[] = {A, B, C, D, Lust[], E, F, G, H...};
Love != SEX;

Lust['SEX'] ∈ Love[];

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Lust[] = {1, 2, 3, 4, SEX, 5, 6, 7, 8...};
Love[] = {A, B, C, D, Lust[], E, F, G, H...};
Love != SEX;

Lust['SEX'] ∈ Love[];
Well that clears that up.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 0 minutes and 56 seconds later...

Sex doesn't equate to love, it's just one out of many ways to show your love for one special person. At least that's how it is for me.

Sex is very intimate, you can't get physically closer to your partner than that. Bringing pleasure to your sweetheart is a gift of love.

Of course, many people have sex without love, as well. But that's different; that's more about satisfying your own needs than about giving something precious to your partner.
Are you a woman?

[Zirka]

Lust[] = {1, 2, 3, 4, SEX, 5, 6, 7, 8...};
Love[] = {A, B, C, D, Lust[], E, F, G, H...};
Love != SEX;

Lust['SEX'] ∈ Love[];

Thanks for the laugh. :laugh: You should do comics for xkcd.

[Moriarty]

I'm confused by this.....................

On the one hand I've had men tell me that they don't equate sex with love.
On the other hand, I've had these same men tell me that they express their love through sex.

Please explain.

It's hard to blame you for being confused. Either the people who told you that are themselves confused, or someone is slipping between more than one meaning of the word love.
That would be my best guess.

[ElstonGunn]

Do you [romantically] love every person that you hug?

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Do you [romantically] love every person that you hug?
My interpretation of what you are saying is (this may be wrong so please let me know).........................

Women tend to be physically demonstrative via hugs and so forth with alot of people. They don't need to feel any real depth of caring to want to hug other people, but still can show love through hugging.

Men tend to have relatively high sexual libidos and, therefore, can enjoy having sex with many people without having any real depth of caring for those people, but still show love through sex.

Is it me, or do both of these practices seem superficial and contrived?

[ElstonGunn]

Sort of. I mostly meant it as one of those "All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares" kind of things. I guess if I go into a little more depth with it, I don't have any real problems with your interpretation.

But whenever the subject of equating sex with love comes up, I always wonder why people equate love with sex. So maybe I'm the wrong guy to ask, on account of having the order reversed and all.

[thod]

I think the two concepts are quite distinct. I have no problems with sex with people I find attractive. Its a bodily function that is needed and nothing more.

Love is more about caring about the other person. Wanting to make them happy and keeping them safe, nurturing behavior if you will. Wanting them to love you back, doing and being what they want you to be. If you dont care how they respond then it isn't love.

Its true that most women are happy to please their man for the same reason. If the woman didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't want to make her unhappy. But at the same time I have to empty the balls somehow. I would feel something is missing and start looking for another woman.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I think the two concepts are quite distinct. I have no problems with sex with people I find attractive. Its a bodily function that is needed and nothing more.

Love is more about caring about the other person. Wanting to make them happy and keeping them safe, nurturing behavior if you will. Wanting them to love you back, doing and being what they want you to be. If you dont care how they respond then it isn't love.

Its true that most women are happy to please their man for the same reason. If the woman didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't want to make her unhappy. But at the same time I have to empty the balls somehow. I would feel something is missing and start looking for another woman.
This brings up another point of interest for me. What does the need to 'emty the balls' have to do with sex? Stay with me here...........if you just need to 'empty your balls', then what's the need for a woman? It seems to me that a man wanting to have sex with a woman is for more than 'emptying their balls'. Is this the case?

[rwyatt365]

For many men, sex is a way to receive pleasure. Like scratching an itch, sex brings (really) good feelings. The act of sexual gratification is not necessarily associated with emotional gratification. That's why (I think) it's so easy for men to resort to prostitution for relief of that sexual "itch". That's why it's easy for a guys mind to form the thought, "I'll screw you, but I don't want to marry you." That's why a bachelor will indulge in a lap dance (or more) on the day before his wedding. All because sex is not necessarily associated with attachment.

But sex is not completely dissociated from emotional attachment. Because sex is so powerful, a man will use it as a means to show attachment to his partner - especially if he knows that partner values the sexual act as a relational bond.

In the male mind, the two statements that you heard are not inconsistent. It's similar to a musician saying, "I don't equate joy with music, but I express my joy in my music." The man is saying "sex does not equal love" (the totality of my love is not contained solely and exclusively in the act of sex, and the act of sex does not always imply an emotional attachment/relationship), but "sex can express love" (it is possible for me to express a love-relationship using sex as a tool).

[thod]

if you just need to 'empty your balls', then what's the need for a woman?

Ain't got nothing against having a wank, it does the job. Water quenches my thirst, but I prefer a beer.

It seems to me that a man wanting to have sex with a woman is for more than 'emptying their balls'. Is this the case?

Men are more visual. If I see a pretty girl then I know if I want to shag her right away. Thats the whole point of talking to her. She may have a nice personality and all but I cant stick my dick in her personality. :)

ps. hope you are not too offended by colorful language.

[AutisticCuckoo]

Are you a woman?

* laughing out loud *

No, I'm definitely 100% male. :)

Do you find my attitude unmanly?

[Aronnax]

I'm confused by this.....................

On the one hand I've had men tell me that they don't equate sex with love.
On the other hand, I've had these same men tell me that they express their love through sex.

Please explain.

Make the traditional venn diagram (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) with 3 overlapping circles.

One circle is love, one is lust, one is sex. The 2 statements discuss 2 different overlapping sections; sex intersects lust compared to sex intersects love.

It is hard to understand that sex can be more than one thing?

[SShack]

They may also just be feeding you a line of crap because sometimes they're just not interested in sex, while at other times they're not interested in cuddling/romance, and we're kind of socialized not to admit either.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

For many men, sex is a way to receive pleasure. Like scratching an itch, sex brings (really) good feelings. The act of sexual gratification is not necessarily associated with emotional gratification. That's why (I think) it's so easy for men to resort to prostitution for relief of that sexual "itch". That's why it's easy for a guys mind to form the thought, "I'll screw you, but I don't want to marry you." That's why a bachelor will indulge in a lap dance (or more) on the day before his wedding. All because sex is not necessarily associated with attachment.

But sex is not completely dissociated from emotional attachment. Because sex is so powerful, a man will use it as a means to show attachment to his partner - especially if he knows that partner values the sexual act as a relational bond.

In the male mind, the two statements that you heard are not inconsistent. It's similar to a musician saying, "I don't equate joy with music, but I express my joy in my music." The man is saying "sex does not equal love" (the totality of my love is not contained solely and exclusively in the act of sex, and the act of sex does not always imply an emotional attachment/relationship), but "sex can express love" (it is possible for me to express a love-relationship using sex as a tool).
Well.......I totally get sexual gratification. I mean I understand it (and I get it too). I also totally understand the 'I'll screw you, but I don't love you' thing. I guess what I don't really understand is the showing love through sex thing. I show love through sex, but that's because I know that my partner wants this from me and I want to make him happy and show him I love him (there are benefits to me also....of course). I know that when my partner has sex with me it's often a display of his love, but I also know that alot of the times this is happening.......it's not because I want sex....it's because he does. It appears as if his love for me is translated to lust. Or maybe he's just lusting alot and while that's happening he feels love.

Whatdya think?





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 4 minutes and 46 seconds later...

Ain't got nothing against having a wank, it does the job. Water quenches my thirst, but I prefer a beer.



Men are more visual. If I see a pretty girl then I know if I want to shag her right away. Thats the whole point of talking to her. She may have a nice personality and all but I cant stick my dick in her personality. :)

ps. hope you are not too offended by colorful language.
No....I'm getting used to it. It's as if you purposefully want to bring everything down to the lowest common denominator. Honestly, it's sort of amusing.

But, I feel like you're avoiding answering the question. Is sex with a woman really worth all the bother of trying to 'get' a woman? I mean, isn't there something more to it than the physical pleasure of orgasm?





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 1 minutes and 9 seconds later...

* laughing out loud *

No, I'm definitely 100% male. :)

Do you find my attitude unmanly?
Not at all. You should take it as a compliment when you're compared to a woman. Your answer seemed mature and thoughtful.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 4 minutes and 13 seconds later...

Make the traditional venn diagram (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) with 3 overlapping circles.

One circle is love, one is lust, one is sex. The 2 statements discuss 2 different overlapping sections; sex intersects lust compared to sex intersects love.

It is hard to understand that sex can be more than one thing?
No....it's not hard to understand. It's just that I identify showing love in a different way and I'm just trying to understand the male mind a bit better. I think of showing love as doing and saying things that are meant to please the person you love. Not that I'm not pleased by sex, but I know that many times my partner is 'loving' me it's not motivated (initially anyway) primarliy by my pleasure, but by his own. I'm not complaining at all....just taking notice.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 1 minutes and 5 seconds later...

They may also just be feeding you a line of crap because sometimes they're just not interested in sex, while at other times they're not interested in cuddling/romance, and we're kind of socialized not to admit either.
Actually, my partner is quite open about both and is more interested in both than I am.

[Chisos]

Did the guys who tell you that they express their love through sex also reveal to you other ways that are important to them that also express their love? And where sex rates on that list?

What about the guys who indicate that they do not equate love with sex. Did those guys ever have any instances where they did equate sex with a part of love?

Under what circumstances were these questions posed to them?

Seems like the best case for mosts folks is that sex and love go hand in hand like red beans and rice.

However, rice can be quit fulfilling as a separate dish, as can red beans.

And, no, I'm not a Cajun.

vaguely dissatisfied, you come up with some very thought provoking questions!

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Did the guys who tell you that they express their love through sex also reveal to you other ways that are important to them that also express their love? And where sex rates on that list?

What about the guys who indicate that they do not equate love with sex. Did those guys ever have any instances where they did equate sex with a part of love?

Under what circumstances were these questions posed to them?

Seems like the best case for mosts folks is that sex and love go hand in hand like red beans and rice.

However, rice can be quit fulfilling as a separate dish, as can red beans.

And, no, I'm not a Cajun.

vaguely dissatisfied, you come up with some very thought provoking questions!
Actually, the first thing I get from men is the sex answer. But, often after a little thought they seem to come up with other things too. Although, these 'other' things are usually very much in the background of their minds. Sex does seem to be very important to men. This is why I'm so curious about this aspect of the male mind. It seems to me that there has to be more to it than simply satisfying an urge since this can be done quite easily through other means.

I don't know about the guys that don't show love through sex. Either they don't exist or I've been lied to in order to get me into bed.....and this I just can't believe of men.

No.....I didn't ask these questions in the throws of passion.

I don't like red beans, but I love rice.........and I am a Cajun (the original Cajuns before we were expelled and drifted down to New Orleans)........wonder what that means.

I'm nothing if not thought provoking.

[anul]

If you love someone you would want to do more than just have sex. Like make them a nice romantic dinner, which could lead to sex. If I were just lusting after a women, I wouldn't take the time to cook her a meal or do something thoughtful for her. Hopefully is someone equates love with sex, they will also do romantic things as well. To show that they care about you, not just your vagina. If I were you I would demand him to cook you lobster next time, to see where he stands.

[Anon722]

I'm confused by this.....................

On the one hand I've had men tell me that they don't equate sex with love.
On the other hand, I've had these same men tell me that they express their love through sex.

Please explain.

As always there is more than one interpreatation, I'll post the two more relevant IMO.

1)

Obama could express his points of view throw a CNN program.
Now CNN, is not equal to Obama's points of view.

Sex is a channel of communication as much as it is a pleasure giving bouncing of hips. Some people care about it sometimes, sometimes they don't. Sex can be used as an expression of love, yes, but it is not equal to love, as you can fill a tonnel with champagne, but tonnel doesn't equal champagne.

2)

Statement a) they don't equate sex with love.
Statement b) they express their love through sex.

Let's say this guy is called Guy.

Guy in statement a, wants to make you feel safe and at ease.
Guy in statement b, wants to have sex.

I actually preffer this one. The simpler, usually the better.

It's clearly two parts of the same speech, Sex is different than love to me, therefore, I want to express my LOVE through sex. What Guy is doing is to disguise sex as love. As a salesman would disguise a sofa as comfort.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

If you love someone you would want to do more than just have sex. Like make them a nice romantic dinner, which could lead to sex. If I were just lusting after a women, I wouldn't take the time to cook her a meal or do something thoughtful for her. Hopefully is someone equates love with sex, they will also do romantic things as well. To show that they care about you, not just your vagina. If I were you I would demand him to cook you lobster next time, to see where he stands.
No..........it's O.K. he's very good at other things.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 3 minutes and 14 seconds later...

As always there is more than one interpreatation, I'll post the two more relevant IMO.

1)

Obama could express his points of view throw a CNN program.
Now CNN, is not equal to Obama's points of view.

Sex is a channel of communication as much as it is a pleasure giving bouncing of hips. Some people care about it sometimes, sometimes they don't. Sex can be used as an expression of love, yes, but it is not equal to love, as you can fill a tonnel with champagne, but tonnel doesn't equal champagne.

2)

Statement a) they don't equate sex with love.
Statement b) they express their love through sex.

Let's say this guy is called Guy.

Guy in statement a, wants to make you feel safe and at ease.
Guy in statement b, wants to have sex.

I actually preffer this one. The simpler, usually the better.

It's clearly two parts of the same speech, Sex is different than love to me, therefore, I want to express my LOVE through sex. What Guy is doing is to disguise sex as love. As a salesman would disguise a sofa as comfort.
I think you've touched on something here. Do men disguise sex for affection, caring, human bonding (not bondage although that's O.K. too), a way to connect? Do they talk trash to cover up these feelings or are we women just projecting?

[ElstonGunn]

This all depends on whether or not you want to buy into the idea that men are whores who don't care about anything as much as they care about their own physical pleasure, and that women are nags who are obsessed with ruining men's fun for the sake of commitment, and that these stereotypes apply in enough situations to be useful in a practical sense. I think there's probably something to be gained if you buy into that, just as much as there is something to be lost for buying into it.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

This all depends on whether or not you want to buy into the idea that men are whores who don't care about anything as much as they care about their own physical pleasure, and that women are nags who are obsessed with ruining men's fun for the sake of commitment, and that these stereotypes apply in enough situations to be useful in a practical sense. I think there's probably something to be gained if you buy into that, just as much as there is something to be lost for buying into it.
I hate stereotypes as much as the next person, but it does appear that men are more motivated by sex.

[tyrantofthought]

Love has little to do with sex, sex just kind of goes with love a lot of the time. Like how a drink goes with a sandwich, yet you could have either of them separately, beforehand, or after either. It all depends on how you like it :P

Personally, I want to at least know someone very well before I get into anything like that, preferably love. But under very certain circumstances that are very rare if even possible, I wouldn't have trouble not being in love but . . . in a different state of mind i guess that I can't explain.

Love is a mental state set on by physical things(mainly a bunch of stuff going on in your brain). Sex is a purely physical thing, but is usually coupled with lust, love, or some other form of the two.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Love has little to do with sex, sex just kind of goes with love a lot of the time. Like how a drink goes with a sandwich, yet you could have either of them separately, beforehand, or after either. It all depends on how you like it :P

Personally, I want to at least know someone very well before I get into anything like that, preferably love. But under very certain circumstances that are very rare if even possible, I wouldn't have trouble not being in love but . . . in a different state of mind i guess that I can't explain.

Love is a mental state set on by physical things(mainly a bunch of stuff going on in your brain). Sex is a purely physical thing, but is usually coupled with lust, love, or some other form of the two.
I know what you mean, but if this were true, then why doesn't everyone just marry their best friend? Or, why does anyone get married at all? Or seek sexual love? Or want the person they love to have sex with them?

[punkyplatypus]

Those two statements are confusing together, but there is really nothing contradicting in what is being said. If love were putting a nail into a board, then sex could be a tool used to put the nail in the board. Let us assume the tool is a hammer. So a hammer is used to express the action of putting a nail into a board, but the hammer is not literally the nail being put into a board. Likewise sex is a tool used to express love, but sex is not love & love is not sex. A hammer can be used for putting a nail into a board, but it can also be used for other actions such as destroying things or reshaping certain objects. Again sex parallels the hammer in that it can be used to do more than express love, such as rape or physical pleasure or reproduction.

It sounds like these guys were trying to be mature while talking about sex and trying to choose their words wisely, which to me it seems like they did well. However, they may have just chosen the right words by accident while playing both sides of the fence (one side being sex with no strings attached and the other being sex to show affection for another rather than to gain personal pleasure). In this case they're just trying to get into your pants by reading your reactions to each of the comments and then following through with the path that you seemed more comfortable with.

[Noehelia]

[QUOTE=vaguely dissatisfied;114085]
I don't know about the guys that don't show love through sex. Either they don't exist or I've been lied to in order to get me into bed.....and this I just can't believe of men.

[QUOTE]


When I first read the original post the two statements were clear in my mind, however as i continued reading the thread I realized that vagualy dissatisfied has a different view of what "show love through sex" means.

For me showing love through sex means making love. There are times you make love with your partner, there are times you just have sex although you do love him.
Is it anything else?

[Elfrun]

This is, without a doubt, the most amount of metaphors I’ve ever seen in a thread :thumbsup:

Yes, I'm not a guy, but I think most answers are pretty much saying the same thing, both statements can be true.

I do particularly like Aronnax's visual description.

[Atremae]

This is fascinating hearing what you all think.

I think for me, love and lust can all occur together at the same time, and sex, as an expression of the two can sometimes be overcome by one or the other. For me, I don't always need to feel the undercurrent of love behind the sex; sometimes it is purely lust, and I don't think people should always feel bad about that.

As far as the "emptying of balls" goes, however, (don't want to explicitly mention the female equivalent) I think ideally one should be respectful of the other person's needs too. Regardless of whether there is love behind it, sex is an exchange of pleasure between you and someone else. Not really sure what my argument is here... someone help me out??

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Those two statements are confusing together, but there is really nothing contradicting in what is being said. If love were putting a nail into a board, then sex could be a tool used to put the nail in the board. Let us assume the tool is a hammer. So a hammer is used to express the action of putting a nail into a board, but the hammer is not literally the nail being put into a board. Likewise sex is a tool used to express love, but sex is not love & love is not sex. A hammer can be used for putting a nail into a board, but it can also be used for other actions such as destroying things or reshaping certain objects. Again sex parallels the hammer in that it can be used to do more than express love, such as rape or physical pleasure or reproduction.

It sounds like these guys were trying to be mature while talking about sex and trying to choose their words wisely, which to me it seems like they did well. However, they may have just chosen the right words by accident while playing both sides of the fence (one side being sex with no strings attached and the other being sex to show affection for another rather than to gain personal pleasure). In this case they're just trying to get into your pants by reading your reactions to each of the comments and then following through with the path that you seemed more comfortable with.
Men trying to get into my pants? Doesn't seem plausable.

But really, I see what you're getting at. The further question that has come up from this discussion is....'why do men want to have sex with women so much'? (sorry about leaving homosexuals out of the equation, but feel free to jump in with any info. on men and sex) I know there is the sexual release/orgasm, but is this really all there is to it....after all you can get that any old way at all. I mean, if I see someone I really want.....I can just go off somewhere and fantasize until I'm past the lusting thing.....right?





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 1 minutes and 19 seconds later...

[QUOTE=vaguely dissatisfied;114085]
I don't know about the guys that don't show love through sex. Either they don't exist or I've been lied to in order to get me into bed.....and this I just can't believe of men.

[QUOTE]


When I first read the original post the two statements were clear in my mind, however as i continued reading the thread I realized that vagualy dissatisfied has a different view of what "show love through sex" means.

For me showing love through sex means making love. There are times you make love with your partner, there are times you just have sex although you do love him.
Is it anything else?
Making love just means having sex with someone you care for. It's romantasizing sex.....in my opinion.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 0 minutes and 47 seconds later...

This is, without a doubt, the most amount of metaphors I’ve ever seen in a thread :thumbsup:

Yes, I'm not a guy, but I think most answers are pretty much saying the same thing, both statements can be true.

I do particularly like Aronnax's visual description.
I like the nail, hammer, board one myself.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 1 minutes and 39 seconds later...

This is fascinating hearing what you all think.

I think for me, love and lust can all occur together at the same time, and sex, as an expression of the two can sometimes be overcome by one or the other. For me, I don't always need to feel the undercurrent of love behind the sex; sometimes it is purely lust, and I don't think people should always feel bad about that.

As far as the "emptying of balls" goes, however, (don't want to explicitly mention the female equivalent) I think ideally one should be respectful of the other person's needs too. Regardless of whether there is love behind it, sex is an exchange of pleasure between you and someone else. Not really sure what my argument is here... someone help me out??
Sounds like you're talking about respect and regard during the sex act.

[AutisticCuckoo]

I know that when my partner has sex with me it's often a display of his love, but I also know that alot of the times this is happening.......it's not because I want sex....it's because he does.
We're all individuals, but that wouldn't work for me. I would feel horribly guilty about having sex with a woman who just 'lets me' although she's not really into it. I've actually left the bed of a woman I thought wanted to have sex, when she indicated that she was just doing it for my sake.

Not at all. You should take it as a compliment when you're compared to a woman. Your answer seemed mature and thoughtful.
Thank you, and I did take it as a compliment, actually. :)

[thod]

Am I so strange? I want to push my penis into young womens vagina's simply for its own sake. Its as basic a drive as being hungry or thirsty. It doesn't need a rational explanation, evolution has hard wired me to do that. All this psycho babble about feelings and love is an attempt to rationalize something that is built in and not a conscious decision. I can decide not to act, but the desire comes from the subconscious and is still there. If all that was true I would be just as likely to fall for a man as a woman, and that has never happened.

Men are for fighting, women for fucking, its pretty straight forward.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

We're all individuals, but that wouldn't work for me. I would feel horribly guilty about having sex with a woman who just 'lets me' although she's not really into it. I've actually left the bed of a woman I thought wanted to have sex, when she indicated that she was just doing it for my sake.


Thank you, and I did take it as a compliment, actually. :)
I respect your point of view, but it isn't quite that simple for me. My partner's libido is much higher than mine (it's much higher than anyone I've ever met). Anyway, I never really get a chance to persue him sexually, but that doesn't mean I don't want to have sex.....it just means he does most of the initiating because he wants it alot more often. There are some times when I'm just doing it for him, but I don't see that as something bad.....as a matter of fact.......those times are the times when I feel most like we are 'making love'. It makes me feel warm and giving.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 1 minutes and 54 seconds later...

Am I so strange? I want to push my penis into young womens vagina's simply for its own sake. Its as basic a drive as being hungry or thirsty. It doesn't need a rational explanation, evolution has hard wired me to do that. All this psycho babble about feelings and love is an attempt to rationalize something that is built in and not a conscious decision. I can decide not to act, but the desire comes from the subconscious and is still there. If all that was true I would be just as likely to fall for a man as a woman, and that has never happened.

Men are for fighting, women for fucking, its pretty straight forward.
I think everything has a rational explanation.....even you. I think you're purposefully avoiding your feelings. Just a hunch.

[AutisticCuckoo]

There are some times when I'm just doing it for him, but I don't see that as something bad.....as a matter of fact.......those times are the times when I feel most like we are 'making love'. It makes me feel warm and giving.

Well, you're doing exactly what I was talking about: engaging in sex primarily to give pleasure to the person you love. :)

I'm not saying I don't take pleasure in it (if I remember correctly; it's been a while), only that my partner's pleasure is more important to me than my own. Like thod said, a man can feel physical pleasure whether or not emotions are involved. But for me, the pleasure is intensified manifold if I can see that my partner is really aroused and feeling intense pleasure. YMMV.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Well, you're doing exactly what I was talking about: engaging in sex primarily to give pleasure to the person you love. :)

I'm not saying I don't take pleasure in it (if I remember correctly; it's been a while), only that my partner's pleasure is more important to me than my own. Like thod said, a man can feel physical pleasure whether or not emotions are involved. But for me, the pleasure is intensified manifold if I can see that my partner is really aroused and feeling intense pleasure. YMMV.
Are you absolutely sure you're not a woman?

A woman can feel pleasure without emotions being involved too. I think it comes down to how you experience love (or bonding, connectedness, whatever you want to call it), but I have a nagging suspicion that alot of men would like to be in the woman's position for a change. By that I mean, being persued and wanted sexually and assuming the loving, nurturing, and giving role during sex.

[AutisticCuckoo]

Are you absolutely sure you're not a woman?
* unzips trousers (ignoring screaming female co-workers) *

Yep. I'm absolutely sure. :)

A woman can feel pleasure without emotions being involved too. I think it comes down to how you experience love (or bonding, connectedness, whatever you want to call it), but I have a nagging suspicion that alot of men would like to be in the woman's position for a change. By that I mean, being persued and wanted sexually and assuming the loving, nurturing, and giving role during sex.
Answering from my personal perspective: absolutely! I want a relationship to be equal, where neither person is 'dominant' or 'passive'. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship where I had to take the initiative every single time.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

* unzips trousers (ignoring screaming female co-workers) *

Yep. I'm absolutely sure. :)


Answering from my personal perspective: absolutely! I want a relationship to be equal, where neither person is 'dominant' or 'passive'. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship where I had to take the initiative every single time.
Me to, but what if one partner has a much higher libido than the other?

[Noehelia]

Oh I did not want just to state my opinion. You said that all men in your life say that they show their love through sex but I have never heard something like that from a man. The way you talk about it it is like men mean "baby don't worry that I do not say to you I love you, I show you my love through sex that is why I want to have sex with you 3 times a day". Is that what you mean?

[AutisticCuckoo]

Me to, but what if one partner has a much higher libido than the other?
That might cause problems, of course. I'm in no position to offer advice on romantic relationships, but in my experience most problems stem from misunderstandings due to a lack of communications. Perhaps you could talk to your partner and explain that this is a problem for you?

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Oh I did not want just to state my opinion. You said that all men in your life say that they show their love through sex but I have never heard something like that from a man. The way you talk about it it is like men mean "baby don't worry that I do not say to you I love you, I show you my love through sex that is why I want to have sex with you 3 times a day". Is that what you mean?
No.. I must be doing a lousy job of explaining myself. I'm saying that I've been told by alot of men that one of the most important ways for them to show/express love is through sex. That when they love a woman they like to have sex with her to show this love. It's not just men I've had relationships with..........





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 1 minutes and 17 seconds later...

That might cause problems, of course. I'm in no position to offer advice on romantic relationships, but in my experience most problems stem from misunderstandings due to a lack of communications. Perhaps you could talk to your partner and explain that this is a problem for you?
It's not a problem for me really. It's probably more of a problem for him ....although I don't think he cares all that much. But, the chase is definately one-sided because of this.

[punkyplatypus]

Men trying to get into my pants? Doesn't seem plausable.

But really, I see what you're getting at. The further question that has come up from this discussion is....'why do men want to have sex with women so much'? (sorry about leaving homosexuals out of the equation, but feel free to jump in with any info. on men and sex) I know there is the sexual release/orgasm, but is this really all there is to it....after all you can get that any old way at all. I mean, if I see someone I really want.....I can just go off somewhere and fantasize until I'm past the lusting thing.....right?

Not to feed your seeming bad self image when it comes to men wanting to get in your pants, but even unattractive people get laid. Just because you may not find yourself as appealing doesn't someone else won't. And just as hunger is the best spice for any meal, desperation/loneliness is the best aphrodisiac.

As for the question why do men want to have sex with women so much, there are many factors to consider & based on the individual man it's probably a mixed bag. Loneliness, social pressure, societal expectations/roles, desperation, practice, experience, instinctual attraction, pheromones, hormones, desire for children, expression of love, wanting to be wanted, fulfilling fantasies, another notch on the belt, a feeling of inadquacy, stress relief, burning off sexual energy, wanting to please another, intoxication, etc. And I can't speak for all guys, but I think most would agree: sex with someone (preferably attractive) is more satisfying than masturbation. This sex with another includes any mutually agreed upon activity that results in climax of one or both individuals, not exclusively vaginal intercourse. I can't really explain why it's better, it's just a personal preference based on past experience.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Not to feed your seeming bad self image when it comes to men wanting to get in your pants, but even unattractive people get laid. Just because you may not find yourself as appealing doesn't someone else won't. And just as hunger is the best spice for any meal, desperation/loneliness is the best aphrodisiac.

As for the question why do men want to have sex with women so much, there are many factors to consider & based on the individual man it's probably a mixed bag. Loneliness, social pressure, societal expectations/roles, desperation, practice, experience, instinctual attraction, pheromones, hormones, desire for children, expression of love, wanting to be wanted, fulfilling fantasies, another notch on the belt, a feeling of inadquacy, stress relief, burning off sexual energy, wanting to please another, intoxication, etc. And I can't speak for all guys, but I think most would agree: sex with someone (preferably attractive) is more satisfying than masturbation. This sex with another includes any mutually agreed upon activity that results in climax of one or both individuals, not exclusively vaginal intercourse. I can't really explain why it's better, it's just a personal preference based on past experience.
"Men trying to get into my pants? Doesn't seem plausable."

This was said sarcastically. I actually have a pretty good self-image as far as my attractiveness (probably a little too good).

"....sex with someone (preferably attractive) is more satisfying than masturbation."

I believe you............I feel the same way. I'm looking for why this is true for men.

[rwyatt365]

Male masturbation, no matter how accomplished the practitioner and no matter the intensity of the outcome, is somehow "functional". By that I mean, it is a way to relieve sexual tension. The pleasurable part is still there, but (for me, at least) it's like starting up my motorcycle in the dead of winter. Yes, it charges the battery and moves the oil around and blow the cobwebs out of the exhaust - but it's nothing like taking it out for a ride in the countryside.

The penis is made for the vagina (sorry gay people, no offense) and, IMHO, that's where it's most happy. Sex with a partner is just better, even if you don't love them it's still better that whacking off.

[44sunsets]

Sex with a partner is just better, even if you don't love them it's still better that whacking off.

This basically sums up the thread.

Of course there's always a few guys who go around saying "I don't believe in sex" or "I love women and don't want to get into their pants" and so on (usually to appease the females in the audience), to which I just shrug. Different strokes for different blokes.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Male masturbation, no matter how accomplished the practitioner and no matter the intensity of the outcome, is somehow "functional". By that I mean, it is a way to relieve sexual tension. The pleasurable part is still there, but (for me, at least) it's like starting up my motorcycle in the dead of winter. Yes, it charges the battery and moves the oil around and blow the cobwebs out of the exhaust - but it's nothing like taking it out for a ride in the countryside.

The penis is made for the vagina (sorry gay people, no offense) and, IMHO, that's where it's most happy. Sex with a partner is just better, even if you don't love them it's still better that whacking off.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but that's not a reason. By the way, your penis doesn't actually feel happiness. That's your brain's job.

What is it specifically about having sex with a woman that is better than without? Please don't give me another allegory. If you don't want to say why or don't know why that's O.K. too.

[rwyatt365]

(Hopefully not to get too graphic, which was my main concern...)
The feel of the female vagina is unlike that of a hand (or other artificial device). It can't be duplicated for the muscle contractions that can, and do, occur, nor for the lubrication that is provided. It's the sensation of "being inside" that is wholly different than a masturbation exercise. That is one aspect - the purely physical.

Then there is the fact that another person is involved that brings a different dynamic to the experience. When masturbating, you provide your own pace and rhythm - you are in control. When engaged with another person, there is a sense of "adventure" - you are not totally in control of the situation, what happens is a joint effort and the outcome is not predictable.

Then there is the (and this sounds really clinical, but...) "sense of accomplishment" that comes from bringing a partner to climax, if you can manage it. Having a vigorous sex session that ends in orgasm for both is the closest thing to Nirvana that I know of.

[punkyplatypus]

"Men trying to get into my pants? Doesn't seem plausable."

This was said sarcastically. I actually have a pretty good self-image as far as my attractiveness (probably a little too good).

"....sex with someone (preferably attractive) is more satisfying than masturbation."

I believe you............I feel the same way. I'm looking for why this is true for men.

It's nice to know that was sarcasm and that your self image isn't as bad as it seemed :cheesy:

I gave the second part a bit more thought and, along with what rwyatt365 said, I think I've come up with some more reasoning for why men prefer sex to masturbation.

First off, with sex includes more usage of all the senses. This makes it more intense. With masturbation I think the main sense focused on is touch, although other senses can be included (through porn & whatnot) for added effect. With sex the other person is the whole package; no additional products needed.

The second thing I noticed is an idea of communication. I can have a discussion with myself in my head about ideas/opinions/subjects & the results are satisfying for me, but I also communicate with other people (such as coming to this forum) because the ideas/opinions/subjects others portray are satisfying in a different way which in many circumstances is more satisfying. This is the same with sex. It's nice expressing my likes & dislikes to another and to recieve her likes & dislikes in return. Maybe there's a sexual activity I wouldn't have thought up that she might show me. It's learning not only who I am, but who she is and everything in between.

Going along with communication, there's an idea of criticism. It's nice to know where you rank sexually and you can't really get that from masturbation. A "wow, that was amazing!" or "great job champ, but maybe next time you wanna..." or "let's try that again, but better :blank:" would be a good indication on how good one is. I'd say criticism & practice are crucial for a guy to better his performance. The best part about this is that you also get to choose your critic(s).

There's also this sense of domination and gaining & marking territory. I guess it's a product of greed, lust, & desire for power. I think this is a popular idea, but I can't really go further in explaining it because it's not really something I really expereince myself. I feel the lust and the desire to sleep with about every beautiful woman I see, but I have self control & conflicting morals that keep me from following through. Other men don't necessarily have these boundaries.

Another topic is reality vs fantasy. Fantasy is a sort of ideal based on a preference. When one masturbates it's usually to a fantasy that doesn't necessarily focus on masturbation. Sex is a reality that may mimic a fantasy, thus being closer to the ideal situation than masturbation. If a fantasy was chocolate ice cream, then masturbation would be mashed potatoes and sex would be vanilla ice cream.

The last thing I came up with was that there's a sense of duty that men have to fulfill. It's ingrained deep within us, like an instinct. To procreate, pass on genetics/dna, to carry on a family name, to further the human species, etc. I don't know if all men feel this same duty, but I do.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

(Then there is the (and this sounds really clinical, but...) "sense of accomplishment" that comes from bringing a partner to climax, if you can manage it. Having a vigorous sex session that ends in orgasm for both is the closest thing to Nirvana that I know of.
This all makes perfect sense to me. So you're saying it's the physical sensation, which is unique and better; the sense of adventure; and the sense of accomplishmant that make men want women so much.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 7 minutes and 43 seconds later...

The last thing I came up with was that there's a sense of duty that men have to fulfill. It's ingrained deep within us, like an instinct. To procreate, pass on genetics/dna, to carry on a family name, to further the human species, etc. I don't know if all men feel this same duty, but I do.
Sounds right to me. So you're saying it employs all of the senses instead of just a few, which makes it better; it's a way of communicating with another person; a way of practicing and perfecting your sexual performance; a sense of domination and power; actual sex with a person is closer to fantasy fullfillment than masturbation; and it fullfills an instinct to procreate.

[44sunsets]

Masturbation and sex is like computerised flight simulators and flying a real plane. Nothing beats flying an actual plane and soaring through the sky for yourself.

[xwalka]

Would you prefer an IV that gives you your nutrients or a tasty, hearty meal? Would you rather get a massage or rub your back on the edge of a chair? Sex is better than masturbation, in part, for the same reason that you can't tickle yourself. Your hand is controlled by your brain and knows where it is going and also provides it's own sensory response which distracts from the main focus. Also, sex involves your whole body and the feel of another person across your body is quite different from sexual solitaire. It just feels better. Sidenote: I actually don't think that having sex with a condom is generally worth the trouble of having sex over masturbation; it's just way too much work for a weak-ass payoff.

Men can have sex that means nothing to them but physical pleasure and, if they are decent, they'll try to reciprocate as best they can in that regard. If a man really loves you, he can express it through sex in a myriad of ways by making it much different. A man who is expressing love will infuse intercourse with many tender moments of touching, thought, holding, and smiles that aren't related to his physical desire for your body but his caring for who you are and desires to make you feel good. The amount of this varies every time because the amount of involvement of love in the sex varies every time. Men can express love with sex the same way they can express hate with rape; the two experiences are barely even similar.

Another thing to consider is that having only one sexual partner is a contrivance of society and a man dedicating himself to you alone is going against nature in order not to hurt you. He still want to have sex just as much, but now it will only be with you. This can lead to a fraction of your sexual activity being lust based over love based.

[ElstonGunn]

The "Does love exist" discussion has been split into a separate thread.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Would you prefer an IV that gives you your nutrients or a tasty, hearty meal? Would you rather get a massage or rub your back on the edge of a chair? Sex is better than masturbation, in part, for the same reason that you can't tickle yourself. Your hand is controlled by your brain and knows where it is going and also provides it's own sensory response which distracts from the main focus. Also, sex involves your whole body and the feel of another person across your body is quite different from sexual solitaire. It just feels better. Sidenote: I actually don't think that having sex with a condom is generally worth the trouble of having sex over masturbation; it's just way too much work for a weak-ass payoff.

Men can have sex that means nothing to them but physical pleasure and, if they are decent, they'll try to reciprocate as best they can in that regard. If a man really loves you, he can express it through sex in a myriad of ways by making it much different. A man who is expressing love will infuse intercourse with many tender moments of touching, thought, holding, and smiles that aren't related to his physical desire for your body but his caring for who you are and desires to make you feel good. The amount of this varies every time because the amount of involvement of love in the sex varies every time. Men can express love with sex the same way they can express hate with rape; the two experiences are barely even similar.

Another thing to consider is that having only one sexual partner is a contrivance of society and a man dedicating himself to you alone is going against nature in order not to hurt you. He still want to have sex just as much, but now it will only be with you. This can lead to a fraction of your sexual activity being lust based over love based.
Women can have sex for nothing but sexual pleasure too.....believe me.

"Men can express love with sex the same way they can express hate with rape; the two experiences are barely even similar."

This is an interesting statement. Along the same lines as the initial thread question.....how do men express hate through rape? What is the connection between hate and sex?

Honestly, I totally get the monogomy-going-against-nature thing, but I don't think men understand that it goes against a woman's nature too. Women are evolutionarily geared to copulate with as many 'fit' men as possible in order to ensure they get the best progeny. It's societal restrictions and double standards that have hamstrung women in this way......although that is changing.

[xwalka]

Women can have sex for nothing but sexual pleasure too.....believe me.

How do men express hate through rape? What is the connection between hate and sex?

This is why it isn't sex itself that is an expression of love or hate but how you go about it that can become such an expression. If I brush your hair away and kiss your forehead, it is an expression of love not a byproduct of sex. I can't really speak for a rapist, maybe some don't employ hate, but I imagine that at least in cases where a target is chosen for a specific hatred, it becomes an aggressive act of domination that forcefeeds not only a lack of consideration for the individual attacked but a contempt for their feelings and freedoms; it can be an attempt to express hatred through complete degredation.


Honestly, I totally get the monogomy-going-against-nature thing, but I don't think men understand that it goes against a woman's nature too. Women are evolutionarily geared to copulate with as many 'fit' men as possible in order to ensure they get the best progeny. It's societal restrictions and double standards that have hamstrung women in this way......although that is changing.

I understand that it goes both ways for much the same reasons physiologically; it is society that traditionally creates different advantages and disadvantages to each gender through monogomy.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

"....it can be an attempt to express hatred through complete degredation."

This has come up before on another thread, but I'm still puzzled by it. Just looking for clearification you understand.........

Why would a man raping a woman or other man be degrading, but not a woman raping a man?

[xwalka]

[I]
Why would a man raping a woman or other man be degrading, but not a woman raping a man?

Nothing I've said is intended to be exclusive to males. That was your question, so it is what I addressed. I'm also more qualified to speak from a male point of view. Don't confuse omission of a female perspective with an assertion that it must either be different or nonexistent. If you asked why donuts were tasty and I gave some reasons, I would not be saying that cherries aren't also tasty, I just wouldn't be bringing it up. In the same respect if you asked why men liked donuts and I gave you some reasons, I wouldn't be implying that those reasons can't apply to women, or monkeys, or fish as well, I would just be telling you why men like donuts.

mmmmm donuts...

[DrEast]

Lust[] = {1, 2, 3, 4, SEX, 5, 6, 7, 8...};
Love[] = {A, B, C, D, Lust[], E, F, G, H...};
Love != SEX;

Lust['SEX'] ∈ Love[];

I'd disagree with this assessment, actually. I'd say that while sex is an element of both lust and love, lust is NOT a proper subset of love.

[Danisty]

Well, I've read this whole thread and I haven't had any trouble with the male point of view at all. I'm a woman, and none of these explanations about sex, love, and lust have been confusing to me. They are all answers I would have given too. Is this just another indication that I really don't understand the female mind despite being female myself?

[Noehelia]

Well, I've read this whole thread and I haven't had any trouble with the male point of view at all. I'm a woman, and none of these explanations about sex, love, and lust have been confusing to me. They are all answers I would have given too. Is this just another indication that I really don't understand the female mind despite being female myself?


I don't think so. Where did you see all these women that were confused about male's point of view?

[ElstonGunn]

Why would a man raping a woman or other man be degrading, but not a woman raping a man?

Certain types of fantasies notwithstanding, you can't rape the willing, so I assume it would be just as degrading to the man in this situation as it would be to a female rape victim (probably in a different way, to some extent).

The types of people who minimize female-on-male rape are more likely to be the shallow "macho man" types whose self-worth is made up in large part by how many vaginas their penises have been inside. They're also probably the same people who have very low standards (physically or otherwise) when it comes to who they're willing to have sex with.

Just some guesses here, though.

[thod]

Hah i say. Women think in terms of people, we are all the same is the mantra. Every man knows there are men and then there are women. She may seem reasonable and sweet at first but when you move in and try living with her it dawns on you that she is quite mad, they all are.

whose self-worth is made up in large part by how many vaginas their penises have been inside.

Guilty m'lord. Given the choice of having sex with one women for life or a new one whenever I wanted, I choose the later.

[ElstonGunn]

I don't have any problems with that, as long as it's an actual choice (i.e., not rape). The part that irks me is when men or women assume that all men would make the same choice as you.

[Danisty]

I don't think so. Where did you see all these women that were confused about male's point of view?I never said anything about seeing women here confused about the male point of view. What I'm saying is that from my point of view, the entire thread would be unnecessary because I'd already understand the male point of view. That's because I already have the male point of view that's been posted here.

Hah i say. Women think in terms of people, we are all the same is the mantra. Every man knows there are men and then there are women. She may seem reasonable and sweet at first but when you move in and try living with her it dawns on you that she is quite mad, they all are.You'll get no argument from me on that. Despite being a woman, I tend to have a lower opinion of women than men. This is all from my personal experiences though and I have to try very hard to make sure those experiences don't affect how I approach other women. I have very few good experiences with women but men seem, for the most part, very easy to understand and get along with.

[xtremegeek]

I'd disagree with this assessment, actually. I'd say that while sex is an element of both lust and love, lust is NOT a proper subset of love.

Agree. There is something so unfulfilling and empty about lust...it does not complete the equation. Must be a null value. Oh well. We are all forever in quest of a complete equation I guess.

[Santana28]

Vaguely, i think this question is a little too broad to be applied accurately. Everyone is different. I get the slight impression that you are looking at this from a more traditional/sexist perspective than most on here would. I just feel a slight bias from you which might possiby be skewing your interpretation of things (just the intuition again).

Sex is equally important to both sexes - we just interpret and demonstrate it in different ways i think. I am very male-minded when it comes to sex (just for fun!). I tend to date men who are very female-minded when it comes to sex (cuddling, romance, blah). With the right person those roles switch completely or in perfect situations meld and become whole - all aspects are experienced together. I know men who equate having sex as degrading and hateful towards women, and have serial relations with ill repute women as a result. I also know men who think having sex with someone one time means they are completely head over heels in love with them. it depends on the individual and their issues. the point is finding someone whose issues meld with yours :)

[Noehelia]

I never said anything about seeing women here confused about the male point of view. What I'm saying is that from my point of view, the entire thread would be unnecessary because I'd already understand the male point of view. That's because I already have the male point of view that's been posted here.



The thread was posted from one person and very few to almost none other females comment on it. I understand also the male point of view (at least I think I do) so I wouln't make such a thread myself also but that does not mean that all women are different from me, just that at least one needed clarification.

[Danisty]

The thread was posted from one person and very few to almost none other females comment on it. I understand also the male point of view (at least I think I do) so I wouln't make such a thread myself also but that does not mean that all women are different from me, just that at least one needed clarification.My comments aren't based solely on what I read on an internet forum. I was just surprised because I figured at this particular forum, I wouldn't have found such a thread. Hence, I feel even more disconnected from other women now. Again, I never said all women were different from me.

[Henry]

I'm confused by this.....................

On the one hand I've had men tell me that they don't equate sex with love.
On the other hand, I've had these same men tell me that they express their love through sex.

Please explain.


There are a variety of types of sex, most of which has little/nothing to do with emotional affection. Some sex does involve affection, but that's not until a while into a relationship for me.

And as for those of you who say your male partners are engaged in "loving sex" because they like to cuddle, talk nice, etc, that's probably game to lower your defenses. God knows I used that often.

And a lot of women aren't into that kind of sex...when I was in college a lot of the girls just wanted to do something new that none of their girlfriends had done before. Not that I took them seriously, but it was a fun 18 months or so before I settled down.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Nothing I've said is intended to be exclusive to males. That was your question, so it is what I addressed. I'm also more qualified to speak from a male point of view. Don't confuse omission of a female perspective with an assertion that it must either be different or nonexistent. If you asked why donuts were tasty and I gave some reasons, I would not be saying that cherries aren't also tasty, I just wouldn't be bringing it up. In the same respect if you asked why men liked donuts and I gave you some reasons, I wouldn't be implying that those reasons can't apply to women, or monkeys, or fish as well, I would just be telling you why men like donuts.

mmmmm donuts...
This is my own thinking and not something I think you implied.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 7 minutes and 54 seconds later...

Well, I've read this whole thread and I haven't had any trouble with the male point of view at all. I'm a woman, and none of these explanations about sex, love, and lust have been confusing to me. They are all answers I would have given too. Is this just another indication that I really don't understand the female mind despite being female myself?
Understanding any mind takes effort. I have found that there are aspects of the 'typical' (for lack of a better word) female mind I will never grasp, but there are also aspects that I have come to understand after some effort on my part. The same is true of the 'typical' male mind, for me. On the one hand, I have no trouble comprehending certain things and, on the other, I have had to ask questions and open myself up to a diiferent way of seeing things.

That's why I have asked this particular question on this forum. You may understand this aspect of men, whereas, I may understand an aspect that you don't. One interesting thing about women that I have found is that there are quite a few that appear to be disparaging toward other women. This aspect of the female psyche is completely baffling to me.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 2 minutes and 28 seconds later...

I don't have any problems with that, as long as it's an actual choice (i.e., not rape). The part that irks me is when men or women assume that all men would make the same choice as you.
That's just another form of prejudism based on stereotypes. I must admit that I am guilty of doing this.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 2 minutes and 57 seconds later...

I never said anything about seeing women here confused about the male point of view. What I'm saying is that from my point of view, the entire thread would be unnecessary because I'd already understand the male point of view. That's because I already have the male point of view that's been posted here.

You'll get no argument from me on that. Despite being a woman, I tend to have a lower opinion of women than men. This is all from my personal experiences though and I have to try very hard to make sure those experiences don't affect how I approach other women. I have very few good experiences with women but men seem, for the most part, very easy to understand and get along with.
Alot of women have a lower opinion of women than men. So..... you're not really different from most women after all. You have an understanding of the female mind that I find completely baffling.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 10 minutes and 21 seconds later...

Vaguely, i think this question is a little too broad to be applied accurately. Everyone is different. I get the slight impression that you are looking at this from a more traditional/sexist perspective than most on here would. I just feel a slight bias from you which might possiby be skewing your interpretation of things (just the intuition again).

Sex is equally important to both sexes - we just interpret and demonstrate it in different ways i think. I am very male-minded when it comes to sex (just for fun!). I tend to date men who are very female-minded when it comes to sex (cuddling, romance, blah). With the right person those roles switch completely or in perfect situations meld and become whole - all aspects are experienced together. I know men who equate having sex as degrading and hateful towards women, and have serial relations with ill repute women as a result. I also know men who think having sex with someone one time means they are completely head over heels in love with them. it depends on the individual and their issues. the point is finding someone whose issues meld with yours :)
I get you about the traditional/sexist thing, but if this is the case then why do you refer to yourself as 'male-minded' about sex = just for fun? And female-minded = romance/cuddling? This sounds a sexist perspective.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 10 minutes and 26 seconds later...

There are a variety of types of sex, most of which has little/nothing to do with emotional affection. Some sex does involve affection, but that's not until a while into a relationship for me.

And as for those of you who say your male partners are engaged in "loving sex" because they like to cuddle, talk nice, etc, that's probably game to lower your defenses. God knows I used that often.

And a lot of women aren't into that kind of sex...when I was in college a lot of the girls just wanted to do something new that none of their girlfriends had done before. Not that I took them seriously, but it was a fun 18 months or so before I settled down.
I can see where men would use this ploy to lower women's defenses, however, that's not the case with me since I have almost always been the initiator and persuer in my relationships.

[Eric86]

* laughing out loud *

No, I'm definitely 100% male. :)

Do you find my attitude unmanly?
I think the same way, though actually, a lot of girls who've gotten to know me really well told me that I'm way more feminine than they are (also with a lot of other things aside from this topic), and I'm not referring to just any girl, but ones that are really feminine.:embarassed::embarassed::embarassed: (and on top of that, I haven't even had my first kiss yet, let alone anything else...I'm looking forward to it so much! I don't have a clue when it would ever happen, though....)



I've always felt rather.....out of place, to say the least.....sometimes, I honestly feel that I should've been born as a girl, but I know I just have to deal with things they way they are as best as I can, even though it can be really hard sometimes. ^.^

[Danisty]

Alot of women have a lower opinion of women than men. So..... you're not really different from most women after all. You have an understanding of the female mind that I find completely baffling.Ironically, my lower opinion of women comes from the way I've been treated by women. I don't have a lower opinion of women because I understand that aspect of the female mind at all. I have a lower opinion of women because I'm tired of being treated like shit from other women. I'd like to understand why women are so manipulative and vindictive towards other women, but I can't understand it so I just spend my time with men.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Ironically, my lower opinion of women comes from the way I've been treated by women. I don't have a lower opinion of women because I understand that aspect of the female mind at all. I have a lower opinion of women because I'm tired of being treated like shit from other women. I'd like to understand why women are so manipulative and vindictive towards other women, but I can't understand it so I just spend my time with men.
Perhaps the women that treated you this way have also been treated badly by other women (not an excuse, but self-perpetuating)? But, you're right, I have seen this same sort of behavior in women and I find it appalling. However, I must say that there is plenty of appalling behavior in men that I find just as offensive if not more so (incest, rape, violence against women and children, chauvanism).





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 1 minutes and 51 seconds later...

I think the same way, though actually, a lot of girls who've gotten to know me really well told me that I'm way more feminine than they are (also with a lot of other things aside from this topic), and I'm not referring to just any girl, but ones that are really feminine.:embarassed::embarassed::embarassed: (and on top of that, I haven't even had my first kiss yet, let alone anything else...I'm looking forward to it so much! I don't have a clue when it would ever happen, though....)



I've always felt rather.....out of place, to say the least.....sometimes, I honestly feel that I should've been born as a girl, but I know I just have to deal with things they way they are as best as I can, even though it can be really hard sometimes. ^.^
I used to believe that I should have been born a boy. But, you know what? That's you and me buying into gender stereotypes.........don't give in to the masses! You be who you are and somewhere along the way there'll be a girl who wants exactly what you have to offer.

[Eric86]

aTo view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. thanks.....I certainly hope so.:) I've always been told I have a lot to offer, but I've never had a chance to see it myself. I just have no idea what kind of girl would even want someone like me (I'm not belittling myself, it's just a legitimate concern)...

[vaguely dissatisfied]

aTo view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. thanks.....I certainly hope so.:) I've always been told I have a lot to offer, but I've never had a chance to see it myself. I just have no idea what kind of girl would even want someone like me (I'm not belittling myself, it's just a legitimate concern)...
If it makes you feel any better.......... I don't know how old you are, but when I was a teenager I was definately not desired by any boys (well very few). I was a 'tomboy' as a child. I didn't fit the 'female' mold (personality-wise). As I became an adult, I found that there were men out there (not a ton, but a few) who wanted a woman like me. Whatever my quirkiness was....that's what they were looking for. There were lots of men who were looking for something very different than me too. I went with the ones who liked my personality (I liked theirs also).

[Danisty]

Perhaps the women that treated you this way have also been treated badly by other women (not an excuse, but self-perpetuating)? But, you're right, I have seen this same sort of behavior in women and I find it appalling. However, I must say that there is plenty of appalling behavior in men that I find just as offensive if not more so (incest, rape, violence against women and children, chauvanism).Perhaps, but we're going all the way back to childhood. I think many of them were actually taught to be this way by their mothers, aunts, sisters, etc. It's something I've seen encouraged. And you're right, men have their flaws too. Your list of male flaws does confuse me a bit. I would say that a very small percentage of men are incestuous, rapists, etc. compared to the high number of women that are manipulative and vindictive. In other words, I would say that 10% of the men I've met had qualities that you describe, whereas 80% of the women I've met had qualities I described.

I used to believe that I should have been born a boy. But, you know what? That's you and me buying into gender stereotypes.........don't give in to the masses! You be who you are and somewhere along the way there'll be a girl who wants exactly what you have to offer.Ah, I used to think I should have been born a boy as well and I have to agree with this.

[Eric86]

If it makes you feel any better.......... I don't know how old you are, but when I was a teenager I was definately not desired by any boys (well very few). I was a 'tomboy' as a child. I didn't fit the 'female' mold (personality-wise). As I became an adult, I found that there were men out there (not a ton, but a few) who wanted a woman like me. Whatever my quirkiness was....that's what they were looking for. There were lots of men who were looking for something very different than me too. I went with the ones who liked my personality (I liked theirs also).
I'll be 22 in a few months.

Sure, girls do generally like me (they always have), but none of them have ever wanted to get involved with me at all, even if it's just like hanging out and doing stuff that we like together in a casual setting just for fun, like even just as friends. They always come up with some reason to say no, which I accept at the time because I trust them, but in the end I end up finding out that it was b.s. one way or another, or that they are just blowing me off or leading me on or using me (or some combination of those four). It really hurts, knowing that they would do that to me, of all people....I mean seriously, what the heck? Why do they have to treat me like crap, especially considering that I never do anything to deserve it? I care about them so much, and yet this is repaid by trampling on my heart? Where's the sense in that? Surely my feelings are important too.... :(

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Perhaps, but we're going all the way back to childhood. I think many of them were actually taught to be this way by their mothers, aunts, sisters, etc. It's something I've seen encouraged. And you're right, men have their flaws too. Your list of male flaws does confuse me a bit. I would say that a very small percentage of men are incestuous, rapists, etc. compared to the high number of women that are manipulative and vindictive. In other words, I would say that 10% of the men I've met had qualities that you describe, whereas 80% of the women I've met had qualities I described.

Ah, I used to think I should have been born a boy as well and I have to agree with this.
You're right. However, personally speaking only (and believe me I have very little regard for the women you have described), I have had as many or more bad experiences with men who treat women like second class citizens regardless of their abilities, sexually harass women, and generally disregard females as equal human beings. I was raised by a very strong woman. I'm a feminist and try very hard to support other women because I think it's the only way we're going to overcome our second-class status. But I also have a saying when I, far too often, run into the type of woman you have described.............first god made man, then he made stupid.

[Danisty]

You're right. However, personally speaking only (and believe me I have very little regard for the women you have described), I have had as many or more bad experiences with men who treat women like second class citizens regardless of their abilities, sexually harass women, and generally disregard females as equal human beings.I think this is bound to come down to personal experience. I've met very few men like that. I'm not saying they aren't out there. I just haven't really seen a very high percentage of them.

I think what also really irritates me about women vs. men is that people acknowledge when men are assholes, but they tend to buy into women's manipulations and don't see the women acting like assholes. It also irritates me that women do this to other women. There is basically no solidarity at all.

I was raised by a very strong woman. I'm a feminist and try very hard to support other women because I think it's the only way we're going to overcome our second-class status. But I also have a saying when I, far too often, run into the type of woman you have described.............first god made man, then he made stupid.I was raised by a very strong woman too, but I'm not a feminist. We'll have to agree to disagree on the current feminist movement and the second-class status. There's no point in going there since I am fairly certain neither of us is going to budge on that.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I'll be 22 in a few months.

Sure, girls do generally like me (they always have), but none of them have ever wanted to get involved with me at all, even if it's just like hanging out and doing stuff that we like together in a casual setting just for fun, like even just as friends. They always come up with some reason to say no, which I accept at the time because I trust them, but in the end I end up finding out that it was b.s. one way or another, or that they are just blowing me off or leading me on or using me (or some combination of those four). It really hurts, knowing that they would do that to me, of all people....I mean seriously, what the heck? Why do they have to treat me like crap, especially considering that I never do anything to deserve it? I care about them so much, and yet this is repaid by trampling on my heart? Where's the sense in that? Surely my feelings are important too.... :(
You must choose your friends much more carefully. People, in general, don't care or think much about anyone but themselves. Young women are notorious for this sort of behaviour. It's probably because they have what all the guys are looking for and they know it.....sothey can act inappropriately without consequences. It's also because they are immature.

Don't let people use you badly. Stand up for yourself. One of the most important things I was taught as a child and I passed on to my girls is that it is incredibly important that you learn to be O.K. being alone. This is infinately better than letting people use you badly.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 3 minutes and 7 seconds later...

I think this is bound to come down to personal experience. I've met very few men like that. I'm not saying they aren't out there. I just haven't really seen a very high percentage of them.

I think what also really irritates me about women vs. men is that people acknowledge when men are assholes, but they tend to buy into women's manipulations and don't see the women acting like assholes. It also irritates me that women do this to other women. There is basically no solidarity at all.

I was raised by a very strong woman too, but I'm not a feminist. We'll have to agree to disagree on the current feminist movement and the second-class status. There's no point in going there since I am fairly certain neither of us is going to budge on that.
I think you're right again.

Perhaps it has to do with my age. When I say 'feminist' I mean equality between the sexes. I was raised in the 60's.

[Danisty]

I think you're right again.

Perhaps it has to do with my age. When I say 'feminist' I mean equality between the sexes. I was raised in the 60's.Then we may agree. My personal feeling is that a lot of modern feminists are pushing much harder than necessary and it's caused others to push back. I agree that the feminist movement was extremely important and very necessary. I just feel that most feminists today aren't acknowledging the accomplishments that have already been made. I don't think we should allow anyone to backslide, but treating men poorly isn't going to translate into progress and I've seen way too much of that.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Then we may agree. My personal feeling is that a lot of modern feminists are pushing much harder than necessary and it's caused others to push back. I agree that the feminist movement was extremely important and very necessary. I just feel that most feminists today aren't acknowledging the accomplishments that have already been made. I don't think we should allow anyone to backslide, but treating men poorly isn't going to translate into progress and I've seen way too much of that.
We are in total agreement there. I probably should start labelling myself as a gender-equalist or something, but I'm loath to allow a few radical feminists and a backlash to have that kind of control over how I choose to identify myself. This is probably due to the crap I had to go through while identifying as feminist all those years.

[Danisty]

We are in total agreement there. I probably should start labelling myself as a gender-equalist or something, but I'm loath to allow a few radical feminists and a backlash to have that kind of control over how I choose to identify myself. This is probably due to the crap I had to go through while identifying as feminist all those years.I can understand your reluctance to lose the label. It makes sense. I was born in 1978 though, so I guess the word feminist itself isn't so important to me.

[Minerva]

Ironically, my lower opinion of women comes from the way I've been treated by women. I don't have a lower opinion of women because I understand that aspect of the female mind at all. I have a lower opinion of women because I'm tired of being treated like shit from other women. I'd like to understand why women are so manipulative and vindictive towards other women, but I can't understand it so I just spend my time with men.

That is exactly why I have FEW female friends. The vast majority of women can't stand any competition. It's always about I want to be the prettiest, the thinnest, the best whatever. It is how they gauge themselves: by comparing themselves with other women. They also have this need to put others down to make themselves feel good. In reality, it is because they have low self-esteem.

[Eric86]

You must choose your friends much more carefully. People, in general, don't care or think much about anyone but themselves. Young women are notorious for this sort of behaviour. It's probably because they have what all the guys are looking for and they know it.....sothey can act inappropriately without consequences. It's also because they are immature.

Don't let people use you badly. Stand up for yourself. One of the most important things I was taught as a child and I passed on to my girls is that it is incredibly important that you learn to be O.K. being alone. This is infinately better than letting people use you badly.
Well, the thing is, I only really have a couple friends. I do stand up for myself; everyone knows I'm not a pushover. I don't put myself into situations where I know (or at least have a suspicion that) I'm going to be taken advantage of, but even the seemingly good situations quite often end up going bad eventually. Sure, I can get along fine being alone; it doesn't interfere with my job or personal life or overall happiness, but I know that I do need someone to complete me, which isn't a bad thing at all, especially knowing how very happy I'd be able to make her. I can't make the gaping hole in my heart go away just because I want it to, nor can I just clam up to protect myself--it totally goes against my nature because I care about everyone. Not only that, but I used to be that way (emotionally isolated) a long time ago, during which time I may as well have not even existed (I was basically just a robot going through school), and I will NEVER go back to the way I was. I know you're not suggesting that I go to such an extreme as that, but you know what I mean; that's just something I can't and won't do because it isn't me. I try not to let these things bother me, and I've been getting better at it, but I still can't help being affected at least somewhat. In the end, though, I know that they're the ones who are really missing out, and if they feel they can treat me that way, then they are not worth my time getting involved with anyways.

[Minerva]

aTo view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. thanks.....I certainly hope so.:) I've always been told I have a lot to offer, but I've never had a chance to see it myself. I just have no idea what kind of girl would even want someone like me (I'm not belittling myself, it's just a legitimate concern)...

The kind of girl that you are looking for is going to be a sweet and honest girl who is waiting for true love. I know some INFJs and you guys are some of the nicest people I have ever met. Don't worry... I know a good woman is hard to find, but they are out there. I promise. I have met hundreds of people through working. You can trust me that there is a girl who will be willing to reciprocate the love you have to offer. The hard and dreadful part is the waiting. But good things come to those who wait.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

That is exactly why I have FEW female friends. The vast majority of women can't stand any competition. It's always about I want to be the prettiest, the thinnest, the best whatever. It is how they gauge themselves: by comparing themselves with other women. They also have this need to put others down to make themselves feel good. In reality, it is because they have low self-esteem.
But, really not all women are like this just as not all men are sex-crazed chauvanists.

This is my perception only but, it seems to me that women are their own worst enemy. They are hardest on one another, less tolerant of bad behavior from one another, and less likely to support one another. The same cannot be said of men. Is this because men are better than women? Have they been socialized to be better human beings? More deserving? More capable? Are women not in leadership roles, positions of power and influence because they are not as good as men and deserve their positions throughout the world? What is this loathing of our own? Have we bought into the idea that it's better to be seen as thinking like a man or male-minded because we identify that group as better?





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 4 minutes and 35 seconds later...

Well, the thing is, I only really have a couple friends. I do stand up for myself; everyone knows I'm not a pushover. I don't put myself into situations where I know (or at least have a suspicion that) I'm going to be taken advantage of, but even the seemingly good situations quite often end up going bad eventually. Sure, I can get along fine being alone; it doesn't interfere with my job or personal life or overall happiness, but I know that I do need someone to complete me, which isn't a bad thing at all, especially knowing how very happy I'd be able to make her. I can't make the gaping hole in my heart go away just because I want it to, nor can I just clam up to protect myself--it totally goes against my nature because I care about everyone. Not only that, but I used to be that way (emotionally isolated) a long time ago, during which time I may as well have not even existed (I was basically just a robot going through school), and I will NEVER go back to the way I was. I know you're not suggesting that I go to such an extreme as that, but you know what I mean; that's just something I can't and won't do because it isn't me. I try not to let these things bother me, and I've been getting better at it, but I still can't help being affected at least somewhat. In the end, though, I know that they're the ones who are really missing out, and if they feel they can treat me that way, then they are not worth my time getting involved with anyways.
Good attitude. You don't need anyone to complete you. You are complete.

Lonliness is a nasty business and because we are social creatures we are hard-wired to seek out companionship and sex. Keep going the way you are.....in my opinion you're doing just fine. We all must face lonliness through our lives....sometimes the lonliest times are when you're with someone.

[Minerva]

But, really not all women are like this just as not all men are sex-crazed chauvanists.

This is my perception only but, it seems to me that women are their own worst enemy. They are hardest on one another, less tolerant of bad behavior from one another, and less likely to support one another. The same cannot be said of men. Is this because men are better than women? Have they been socialized to be better human beings? More deserving? More capable? Are women not in leadership roles, positions of power and influence because they are not as good as men and deserve their positions throughout the world? What is this loathing of our own? Have we bought into the idea that it's better to be seen as thinking like a man or male-minded because we identify that group as better?


Notice I said the vast majority, not all.

Maybe it is because statistically speaking there are more F women than there are men. So emotional behaviour and emotional pursuits are more rampant among the "softer" sex. Also, have you ever looked at the hormonal chart for a woman??? It is very complicated, not at all like a man's.

It isn't about one sex being better than the next, it is about people being predisposed towards certain pursuits because of sex, personality type, socioeconomic background, race and the list goes on.

Thinking yourself through problems goes a LONG way. Some people are not good at that, and see no reason to change. There are more males with the T preference, and a man's hormones don't go up and down like a woman's. So maybe these are some of the underlying reasons for the male vs female stereotypes. This is why I hate stereotypes. It dismisses people too quickly. There is always more to a person's life!!

[Eric86]

The kind of girl that you are looking for is going to be a sweet and honest girl who is waiting for true love. I know some INFJs and you guys are some of the nicest people I have ever met. Don't worry... I know a good woman is hard to find, but they are out there. I promise. I have met hundreds of people through working. You can trust me that there is a girl who will be willing to reciprocate the love you have to offer. The hard and dreadful part is the waiting. But good things come to those who wait.
Yes, and I'm quite patient.;D

[Danisty]

But, really not all women are like this just as not all men are sex-crazed chauvanists.I agree. I know a few really awesome women. I just think the percentages are higher in women being manipulative than in men being chauvinists. I also think that there is a good reason to be more suspicious of women because being manipulative is sneaky and being a chauvinist is obvious. With men, you tend to know where you stand.

This is my perception only but, it seems to me that women are their own worst enemy. They are hardest on one another, less tolerant of bad behavior from one another, and less likely to support one another.This is the cause of my dislike of women though. If women didn't act like that, then I wouldn't have this problem with women in the first place.

What is this loathing of our own? Have we bought into the idea that it's better to be seen as thinking like a man or male-minded because we identify that group as better?No, it's the other way around. I already identified with the male-minded group not because it's better but because that's how I already think.

[Eric86]

Good attitude. You don't need anyone to complete you. You are complete.

Lonliness is a nasty business and because we are social creatures we are hard-wired to seek out companionship and sex. Keep going the way you are.....in my opinion you're doing just fine. We all must face lonliness through our lives....sometimes the lonliest times are when you're with someone.
You really think so? lol, thanks....that means a lot to me.


My mom knows how that is (she remarried five years ago to the worst person I have ever met).

[vaguely dissatisfied]

"No, it's the other way around. I already identified with the male-minded group not because it's better but because that's how I already think."

This may be the case with you, but I think that society has ingrained in all of us that 'white males' are the elite group. Since we all buy into this, we end up with women who want to be indentified with men and not women, minorities who want to be indentified with the majority group, and white male sense of entitlement.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 2 minutes and 11 seconds later...

You really think so? lol, thanks....that means a lot to me.


My mom knows how that is (she remarried five years ago to the worst person I have ever met).
Hang in there. You have lots of time. I didn't fall in love until I was 40. Hopefully it'll be sooner than that for you.....then again you sound alot healthier emotionally than I was at your age.

[AutisticCuckoo]

I think the same way, though actually, a lot of girls who've gotten to know me really well told me that I'm way more feminine than they are (also with a lot of other things aside from this topic), and I'm not referring to just any girl, but ones that are really feminine.:embarassed::embarassed::embarassed:
What one considers 'feminine' (or 'effeminate') can be very subjective. It's quite possible that they mean it as something positive: an endearment. It may mean, 'you're not like all those stupid male a**holes out there'.

(and on top of that, I haven't even had my first kiss yet, let alone anything else...I'm looking forward to it so much! I don't have a clue when it would ever happen, though....)
I saw that you're 22. At that age, many women seem to be looking for 'dangerous' guys, men that look rugged, even violent. Nice guys finish last, as they say. More mature women seem, in my experience, to look for other qualities in a man. I don't know if this is a cultural thing; it might be different in your country than in mine.


I've always felt rather.....out of place, to say the least.....sometimes, I honestly feel that I should've been born as a girl, but I know I just have to deal with things they way they are as best as I can, even though it can be really hard sometimes. ^.^
Don't get caught in clichés. There's no particular way that a man or woman 'has to' behave. I know that, when you're young, peer pressure can be horrible, and becoming popular with the opposite sex is paramount. But be careful. Don't try to change your innermost being into something you're not, because it will do your head in, eventually.

I'm 42, and I don't exactly need to fight women off with a stick. So what? I guess it's possible that I'll meet someone worthwhile one day, but then again, I may not. I've accepted that and decided to move on with my life. Que sera sera.

[thod]

This is my perception only but, it seems to me that women are their own worst enemy. They are hardest on one another, less tolerant of bad behavior from one another, and less likely to support one another. The same cannot be said of men. Is this because men are better than women? Have they been socialized to be better human beings? More deserving?

Perhaps its because the guys experience puberty in high school differently. Upset the other guy you get a fist in the jaw. The girls dont strike out when angry, instead they bitch about the other girls. A guy goes around doing that to the other guys he ends up flat on his back.

Maybe there is something to the cavemen needing to operate as a team. I depend on him to watch my back and I watch his his.

Its certainly true in my experience that when a group of guys comes together they are wary of each other at the start but after a while they gel into a team and think each other are fine. The girls like each other at the start but end up at each others throats. Why should this be? Perhaps the guys are more forgiving, they dont recall every little jibe and seek revenge. It sometimes seems to me that women can recite lists of every slight ever done to them by other women. They hold these internal accounts that have to be balanced.

[Danisty]

"No, it's the other way around. I already identified with the male-minded group not because it's better but because that's how I already think."

This may be the case with you, but I think that society has ingrained in all of us that 'white males' are the elite group. Since we all buy into this, we end up with women who want to be indentified with men and not women, minorities who want to be indentified with the majority group, and white male sense of entitlement.I disagree. That's basically the kind of stuff I don't like about the current feminist movement. I don't see anyone trying to be masculine and I don't see society saying that men are better. What I do see is a lot of women claiming that is the case.

Perhaps its because the guys experience puberty in high school differently. Upset the other guy you get a fist in the jaw. The girls dont strike out when angry, instead they bitch about the other girls. A guy goes around doing that to the other guys he ends up flat on his back.

Maybe there is something to the cavemen needing to operate as a team. I depend on him to watch my back and I watch his his.What I wouldn't give to knock a woman out for talking crap! I wish we had this kind of honesty.

Its certainly true in my experience that when a group of guys comes together they are wary of each other at the start but after a while they gel into a team and think each other are fine. The girls like each other at the start but end up at each others throats. Why should this be? Perhaps the guys are more forgiving, they dont recall every little jibe and seek revenge. It sometimes seems to me that women can recite lists of every slight ever done to them by other women. They hold these internal accounts that have to be balanced.I wouldn't be so certain that the group of girls actually like each other at the start. I tend to believe that's part of the deception. It might be that you haven't been privy to the conversations that go on behind the scenes though. Women start making alliances within a group almost right away. They make judgments immediately, but they don't act on them. They quietly spread information that they hear about other women within the group. The alliances themselves are not necessarily friendships either though and they're subject to change without notice. What you end up with is a group of people who can't trust each other at all. I don't think most women would trade that kind of group for the type of masculine group that you describe though. I think most women enjoy the games they play.

[Eric86]

I saw that you're 22. At that age, many women seem to be looking for 'dangerous' guys, men that look rugged, even violent. Nice guys finish last, as they say. More mature women seem, in my experience, to look for other qualities in a man. I don't know if this is a cultural thing; it might be different in your country than in mine.
Nope, it's the same here too. I most likely will have to try for women who are a bit older than me because of that (maybe 2-4 years older I'm guessing; hopefully by that point they will have outgrown the immature mentality and is a no-nonsense person).

[Henry]

Nope, it's the same here too. I most likely will have to try for women who are a bit older than me because of that (maybe 2-4 years older I'm guessing; hopefully by that point they will have outgrown the immature mentality and is a no-nonsense person).

I don't think the whole bad boy appeal goes away for a while. They tend to recognize that its dysfunctional mid-late 20's, but its still there.

[Monte314]

I don't think I can separate my emotional desire for my wife from my physical desire for her. They are locked together, and reinforce one another.

I think one of the reasons that marriages fail is that this integration of the various components of the relationship doesn't occur. By holding parts of ourselves back from our mates, we limit the strength of the bond that can form.

Heck, if we are just two alley cats rutting behind a dumpster, one available body is as good as another... no commitment, no bond.

[Santana28]

I get you about the traditional/sexist thing, but if this is the case then why do you refer to yourself as 'male-minded' about sex = just for fun? And female-minded = romance/cuddling? This sounds a sexist perspective.


because i'm trying to speak your language!

that was a "stereotypical" example provided for easier understanding. i am an INTJ - how dare i apply a label to my sexual mindset! Never! ;) I am me, and i make no apologies or explanations for myself.

oh wait... i just called myself an INTJ...dangitall. now i know why my ISTJ friend gets so irritated at me sometimes.

[44sunsets]

The kind of girl that you are looking for is going to be a sweet and honest girl who is waiting for true love. I know some INFJs and you guys are some of the nicest people I have ever met. Don't worry... I know a good woman is hard to find, but they are out there. I promise. I have met hundreds of people through working. You can trust me that there is a girl who will be willing to reciprocate the love you have to offer. The hard and dreadful part is the waiting. But good things come to those who wait.

This sounds eerily familiar and I have heard it dozens of times from women, being a typical "sensitive" male INFJ.

What I would suggest to all men (regardless of personality type) who have trouble finding a female partner, is that they work on themselves and develop their character. Being "nice" is great but it does absolutely nothing for you in the relationship stakes.

The sweetest girl in the world will absolutely not date you unless she is attracted to you.

I would say that telling a sensitive nice guy that eventually a sweet girl will come along who is just right for him is like digging his grave for him. The odds are just too slim to risk it. Yes, from real-life personal experience I've seen one case where a lonely late-middle-aged INFJ man eventually met a younger INFJ woman who wanted to be with him, but this is very rare. If you're willing to risk these slim odds, then by all means wait for the right sweet girl to come along who will accept you as you are.

For everybody else, you need to work on your character and your personality, and learn how to be a man that is attractive to women. (To be absolutely blunt: yes, lonely men, there are certain things missing from your character, that's why women aren't attracted to you. You need to mature and develop yourself to overcome this.)

I saw that you're 22. At that age, many women seem to be looking for 'dangerous' guys, men that look rugged, even violent. Nice guys finish last, as they say. More mature women seem, in my experience, to look for other qualities in a man.

People say this all the time, but I think it's a myth. People say these things because they don't understand attraction. Women, at any age, want a man who is confident, strong (mentally and physically), who will challenge them and tease them playfully. Women want a man who will stand up to them, stick to his guns and won't put up with any rubbish.

They want a man they can depend on, who knows exactly what he's doing, where he's going. Women love an unpredictable man -- they love the excitement and suspense of not knowing exactly what he's going to do next. Women despise boring men.

Now, a lot of the above qualities can be found in so-called "bad boys", but let's give women a bit more credit. They wouldn't be dating bad boys if there were more quality men available.

Want to know why divorce and infidelity rates are so high? It's because many men don't have a clue how to keep the attraction alive. Historically, it's never been a problem because in the old days, women couldn't get divorced. Heck, sometimes they couldn't even choose their partners. A man could pick a hot girl and make her his wife. Men didn't have to know anything about attraction, or how to make themselves irresistable to women. Men were comfortable in the knowledge that their women were their property, and they could have sex on tap.

This doesn't fly anymore in modern societies, and rightly so. Men need to get their act together.

Take a look at the typical qualities that women hate in a man:

- Desperation.
- Insecurity and lack of confidence.
- Jealousy (another form of insecurity, but notable because it is so powerful)
- Weak will -- always caving in to a woman's demands without standing up for himself.
- Lack of social skills.
- Often defers decision making to the woman, instead of making up his own mind. Lack of strong opinions.
- Lack of leadership ability
- Buys the woman lots of gifts without a good reason; sucks up to her and tries to "buy" her affection.
- Whines and complains a lot.
- Neediness, and wants the woman to "mother" him.
- Lack of independence. Doesn't have his own separate, lively, fulfilled life.
- Begs and nags for sex
- Lack of ambition, drive and long-term vision
- He's plain boring: does the same thing day in day out, never surprises the woman, doesn't challenge her

If you look at divorces, failing relationships or men who can't attract a female partner, you'll see some or even all of these red flags present.

You often hear men whining about how hot, intelligent women are going out with ugly lowly men, or some other such outrage. If only these men learned how attraction works.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Perhaps its because the guys experience puberty in high school differently. Upset the other guy you get a fist in the jaw. The girls dont strike out when angry, instead they bitch about the other girls. A guy goes around doing that to the other guys he ends up flat on his back.

Maybe there is something to the cavemen needing to operate as a team. I depend on him to watch my back and I watch his his.

Its certainly true in my experience that when a group of guys comes together they are wary of each other at the start but after a while they gel into a team and think each other are fine. The girls like each other at the start but end up at each others throats. Why should this be? Perhaps the guys are more forgiving, they dont recall every little jibe and seek revenge. It sometimes seems to me that women can recite lists of every slight ever done to them by other women. They hold these internal accounts that have to be balanced.
I have found this with certain types of women. I've worked in a career with almost exclusively men and one that was predominantly women and in those two careers I found very little difference between the men and women in this regard. However, there have been many 'jobs' before and in between careers (while in school) where I have found exactly this sort of thinking and behavior.

It seems like the better women feel about themselves, in general, the less likly they are to engage in petty behavior.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 4 minutes and 15 seconds later...

I don't think I can separate my emotional desire for my wife from my physical desire for her. They are locked together, and reinforce one another.

I think one of the reasons that marriages fail is that this integration of the various components of the relationship doesn't occur. By holding parts of ourselves back from our mates, we limit the strength of the bond that can form.

Heck, if we are just two alley cats rutting behind a dumpster, one available body is as good as another... no commitment, no bond.
Yes. Adult relationships are based on sex and commitment (if I can really simplify a complex thing). It seems to me you need to have both of these things and the individuals involved have to be compatible, to a certain degree, in both of these things in order for a relationship to last.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 0 minutes and 46 seconds later...

because i'm trying to speak your language!

that was a "stereotypical" example provided for easier understanding. i am an INTJ - how dare i apply a label to my sexual mindset! Never! ;) I am me, and i make no apologies or explanations for myself.

oh wait... i just called myself an INTJ...dangitall. now i know why my ISTJ friend gets so irritated at me sometimes.
Ahhhhhhhhh........................

[d4m45t4]

LOL! As someone who's used those lines...

Love and sex are correlated, but not the same. You can have one without the other. Men value sex more than love, women vice versa. (To test this, ask men and women if they're more likely to forgive their spouse for having a purely physical affair or purely emotional affair -- men won't forgive sex, women won't forgive love)

Men don't equate sex with love: "just because we had sex doesn't mean I love you"
Men express love through sex: "of COURSE I love you, let's have sex so I can show you just how much"

Basically, don't believe guys and their bullshit. If you don't want to be taken advantage of, don't put out until they commit.

I'm confused by this.....................

On the one hand I've had men tell me that they don't equate sex with love.
On the other hand, I've had these same men tell me that they express their love through sex.

Please explain.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

LOL! As someone who's used those lines...

Love and sex are correlated, but not the same. You can have one without the other. Men value sex more than love, women vice versa. (To test this, ask men and women if they're more likely to forgive their spouse for having a purely physical affair or purely emotional affair -- men won't forgive sex, women won't forgive love)

Men don't equate sex with love: "just because we had sex doesn't mean I love you"
Men express love through sex: "of COURSE I love you, let's have sex so I can show you just how much"

Basically, don't believe guys and their bullshit. If you don't want to be taken advantage of, don't put out until they commit.
I guess I don't equate love with sex either. But, I probably would be much less likely to show my love through sex. I would show lust through sex, but not usually love. That's why I'm a bit confused.

[ElstonGunn]

Men value sex more than love

Maybe generally. But generalities aside, and with all due respect, it's my standard policy to point out when I don't see myself fitting in with these kinds of comments. I'd rather not have that stereotype applied to me, and there might be another guy or two who aren't big fans of it either, so I just like to call attention to the fact that, even if it's true in the majority of cases, it's not a universal rule.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I'd still like to know why men value sex so much (not you Elston).

As I said in another thread..............don't give me the 'better orgasm' BS. I'm an old woman and I know all about great orgasms, but I'm still not as intensely motivated by sex as most men (not you Elston). Come to think of it though..............I'm not all that motivated by love either..................

[Indubitably]

I had a girlfriend once that felt love was something that a man showed a woman by buying gifts for her. She obviously wasn't trying to be shallow and materialistic, that was just how she thought. For me, going for sunset walks on the beach, spending quiet lazy summer afternoons under a willow tree by the bay, and regularly reminding her that she made me the happiest guy around, perhaps punctuated by an uninterrupted weekend in the throws of passion at a secluded cabin in the mountains, where the kind of things you did to show someone that you love them. The idea that you could make someone happy just by purchasing them something shiny was so foreign to me that it took almost 2 months of being a couple before I even caught on that she needed that.

It wasn't that it needed to be expensive, it just had to be tangible, and it needed to be for her. I would buy her little useless nicknacs like a quartz crystal, or a pair of sun glasses, and she would light up like a christmass tree. For me it was meaningless though, I would do it, but I got no gratification out of doing these things for her the way I do when I can make a woman happy with a moonlit carriage ride and a conversation about the astronomical origins of the universe. I would give her the gift, and she would want to have sex that night. It just didn't feel right to me, it was all much to contractual. I don't want someone with whom I can have a mutually beneficial agreement, I want someone for whom I can make the world a wonderful place to live, and who can return the favor just by being there to enjoy it.

In any event, people really do have entirely different ways of expressing love, and while sex is usually tied in with it, how it is tied in can be completely different from person to person.

[acyckowski]

I had a girlfriend once that felt love was something that a man showed a woman by buying gifts for her. She obviously wasn't trying to be shallow and materialistic, that was just how she thought. For me, going for sunset walks on the beach, spending quiet lazy summer afternoons under a willow tree by the bay, and regularly reminding her that she made me the happiest guy around, perhaps punctuated by an uninterrupted weekend in the throws of passion at a secluded cabin in the mountains, where the kind of things you did to show someone that you love them. The idea that you could make someone happy just by purchasing them something shiny was so foreign to me that it took almost 2 months of being a couple before I even caught on that she needed that.

Sounds like a "love languages" difference. She was into gift giving, you're into quality time.

Funny, 'cause I was already planning to make the point that although I logically separate sex from love, my primary love language is "physical touch," which means that in practice sex is how I express and feel love. I seem to have a rational/emotional conflict on this issue. Fortunately, I'm married, so I no longer have sex.

[Minerva]

I had a girlfriend once that felt love was something that a man showed a woman by buying gifts for her. She obviously wasn't trying to be shallow and materialistic, that was just how she thought. For me, going for sunset walks on the beach, spending quiet lazy summer afternoons under a willow tree by the bay, and regularly reminding her that she made me the happiest guy around, perhaps punctuated by an uninterrupted weekend in the throws of passion at a secluded cabin in the mountains, where the kind of things you did to show someone that you love them. The idea that you could make someone happy just by purchasing them something shiny was so foreign to me that it took almost 2 months of being a couple before I even caught on that she needed that.

It wasn't that it needed to be expensive, it just had to be tangible, and it needed to be for her. I would buy her little useless nicknacs like a quartz crystal, or a pair of sun glasses, and she would light up like a christmass tree. For me it was meaningless though, I would do it, but I got no gratification out of doing these things for her the way I do when I can make a woman happy with a moonlit carriage ride and a conversation about the astronomical origins of the universe. I would give her the gift, and she would want to have sex that night. It just didn't feel right to me, it was all much to contractual. I don't want someone with whom I can have a mutually beneficial agreement, I want someone for whom I can make the world a wonderful place to live, and who can return the favor just by being there to enjoy it.

In any event, people really do have entirely different ways of expressing love, and while sex is usually tied in with it, how it is tied in can be completely different from person to person.

She sounds very much like a Sensor! In facts she sounds like an SF. From what you said, it's better that it didn't work out in the end. Although I am also an SF, I would kill to have a guy do those things for and to me ;). But highly S people need something very concrete to relate to.

Did she come from money? I didn't, but then again, I grew up in a very rational house and I love abstract ideas.

Oh, BTW, I love shiny objects too, but they're not a requirement. After all, I have an earring for every outfit, so I think I have enough shiny stuff for a while! LOL!

Personality is a combination of predisposition (your basic personality type) and character. Although MBTI and the like tells us how a person thinks, it cannot tell us what the person thinks of how he/she feels. Character on the other hand, is an accumulation of past experiences and what we learn from them and how it affects our approach to our daily lives.

The important thing to keep in mind though is that this makes every single person absolutely unique and it also means that every person looks at life through different lenses; lenses which are coloured by our personalities.

The hard part is finding a personality that you can really connect with. Easier said than done right? And then comes the working at a relationship part. Oh dear!

[Eric86]

Sex is definitely important to me, and I'm very much looking forward to it, but it's much more the emotional aspect of it that matters to me; without that connection, I want nothing to do with it. Sex can be a part of love, but love in general is far more important to me than sex alone will ever be.

[Minerva]

Sex is definitely important to me, and I'm very much looking forward to it, but it's much more the emotional aspect of it that matters to me; without that connection, I want nothing to do with it. Sex can be a part of love, but love in general is far more important to me than sex alone will ever be.

Spoken like a true NFJ!

I agree! For me sex and love are different. Sex can take place with or without love, but I require love to have sex.

So I take the easy way out and make the distinction of having sex VS making love.;)

[Eric86]

Yeah....

There was one girl back in high school who offered to give me a blowjob for $5. I was utterly appalled when she said that....:dead:

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Sounds like a "love languages" difference. She was into gift giving, you're into quality time.

Funny, 'cause I was already planning to make the point that although I logically separate sex from love, my primary love language is "physical touch," which means that in practice sex is how I express and feel love. I seem to have a rational/emotional conflict on this issue. Fortunately, I'm married, so I no longer have sex.
That made me laugh out loud.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 4 minutes and 12 seconds later...

Maybe people who have had alot of sex without love tend to separate love and sex.

Even though I love my partner, I don't really eqate having sex with him as showing him that I love him. I mean, it doesn't feel like an intimate loving gesture most of the time. Whereas, physical affection or giving my undivided attention etc. do feel like loving gestures.

[Indubitably]

She sounds very much like a Sensor! In facts she sounds like an SF. From what you said, it's better that it didn't work out in the end. Although I am also an SF, I would kill to have a guy do those things for and to me ;). But highly S people need something very concrete to relate to.

Did she come from money? I didn't, but then again, I grew up in a very rational house and I love abstract ideas.

Oh, BTW, I love shiny objects too, but they're not a requirement. After all, I have an earring for every outfit, so I think I have enough shiny stuff for a while! LOL!

Personality is a combination of predisposition (your basic personality type) and character. Although MBTI and the like tells us how a person thinks, it cannot tell us what the person thinks of how he/she feels. Character on the other hand, is an accumulation of past experiences and what we learn from them and how it affects our approach to our daily lives.

The important thing to keep in mind though is that this makes every single person absolutely unique and it also means that every person looks at life through different lenses; lenses which are coloured by our personalities.

The hard part is finding a personality that you can really connect with. Easier said than done right? And then comes the working at a relationship part. Oh dear!

I think more than a little of the problem had to do with what you define as character. Although personality probably played a significant role, her upbringing was likely the primary reason why we couldn't work things out. Her parents weren't from money, but they were very much of the "talk is cheap, show me the money" mindset. I remember one time she said something along the lines of, "my parents don't like you, they think you are getting the milk without buying the cow". She would fall for just about anything they fed her hook line and sinker, so it was a huge blow to her self esteem and consequently her confidence in our relationship. I was utterly appalled, not because it was at all an insult to me, but because it was an incredibly degrading thing for someone to say about the woman I loved, not to mention that it was said by people that were supposed to love her at least as much as I did. I tried to be as supportive as I could but my response was essentially, "Do you really think of yourself as live stock?! I don't understand how you can feel anything but outraged that they would have the audacity to suggest that your affections can be bought.".

This coupled with the fact that her personality seemed to make her predisposed to depending on the approval of others, ultimately made it very hard for me to respect her. From my point of view the pillars of a healthy relationship are mutual trust and respect, and for her it was almost like a man shouldn't think of his girlfriend as anything even approaching an equal. She really saw it more as an arrangement where the girl is supposed to pine and stroke the ego of the man, and in return he will provide her with security and comfort. Basically our value systems were just radically different. It wasn't really about her personality. If she had been able to stand up for herself, or even just think for herself, I doubt her personality would have been a problem for me, but that just wasn't how she was raised.

Anyway, I have met a lot of XSFX type girls (quite a few of my good friends would fall into this category) that I have a lot of respect for, despite the fact that I don't share their preoccupation with material possessions or their concern for how they are viewed by others. They may seek the approval of the people around them, but when they are strong , healthy individuals, if the approval of others depends on the violation of their principals they are often the first to tell that person to get bent. They just need to have value systems that don't revolve around ideas like, "women are tools, and shouldn't think for themselves".

[Sean O]

Before I begin, I'll mention that I've only read the first 25 or so posts of this topic, so you'll have to excuse me if I'm just repeating what someone else has already said.

My perspective on this is that it is impossible to truly love someone (in a romantic sense) without sex. I say this because, in my opinion, if there was no sexual dynamic between you and your partner, it would just be a friendship. This dynamic doesn't even have to involve intercourse (at least, not immediately ;D) so long as a tangible desire is there. For me, a healthy romantic relationship involves a girl and I getting to know each other on an intimate level, as well as being able to share/express our sexuality and desires together. If either of those factors is absent, it'll fall apart completely.

Having said that, I'd like to relate the whole sex and love (or more generally speaking, feelings) idea to what I said about "expressing our sexuality and desires together". As some of you may or may not know, most women desire sex just as much as the average guy, in spite of what societal conditioning will influence them to tell you. However, women derive pleasure from sex in different ways than men do.

For us guys, it's mostly a physical thing: being inside her and busting a nut is enough for us to say we enjoyed it. For women, however, emotional stimulation is at LEAST equally important as physical stimulation. It's one thing for a guy to thrust on her for 20 minutes or so. It's another thing entirely for a guy to sweep her off her feet, take the lead, escalate slowly and sensually with foreplay and the like, and then sex her in an affectionately dominant manner like a real man would. Sex like that will do powerful things to a woman's emotions and will give her crazy intense orgasms, because it combines the physical expression of sexuality (penetration) with the emotional expression of sexuality, i.e. the masculine act of sexual dominance and the feminine act of sexual surrender. It'll also have her coming back for lots more ;)

I should add a disclaimer to that, however: there is a big difference between being sexually dominant and being a rapist. I don't at all mean that women enjoy being forced to do a sexual act against their will; I just mean that they like when a man can "read" them and take the initiative to escalate things when she's ready to move to the next level.

[Anon722]

I think you've touched on something here. Do men disguise sex for affection, caring, human bonding (not bondage although that's O.K. too), a way to connect? Do they talk trash to cover up these feelings or are we women just projecting?

Do men disguise sex for affection. Yes. And women disguise it to themselves to. I actually find it a nice expression of affection. It is it, for me. But it is not the basic impulse you have, as a man.

The natural male instinct is to have sex, not to build affection. To build affection is a female instinct. It has an evo-psych explanation. You can understand it as an exchange. Males give affection ( and the bonding that comes with it ), and women gives sex. Its offensively basic for my taste. But look around. :/ It happens quite often.

Sometimes, other benefits can replace affection, such as status, financial security, etc.

It is not that women are not interested in sex, you know better than me. :P But it is a fact, (scientifically proven ) that men are more interested in sex than women. Men are more interested in quantity of sexual partners, while women are comparatively more interested in quality when it comes to find a suitable partner.

"Do they talk trash to cover up..."

Well... men are people. We are different from one another. You can not standardized men, there will always be lots, I mean, LOTS of exceptions when it comes to something as specific as "Do they talk..." Some would, some would not, some would but only in certain scenarios.

Remember... We, men, are people... well... we sometimes we are close to. :D

[Oberon]

[QUOTE=44sunsets;120396]

Take a look at the typical qualities that women hate in a man:

- Desperation.
- Insecurity and lack of confidence.
- Jealousy (another form of insecurity, but notable because it is so powerful)
- Weak will -- always caving in to a woman's demands without standing up for himself.
- Lack of social skills.
- Often defers decision making to the woman, instead of making up his own mind. Lack of strong opinions.
- Lack of leadership ability
- Buys the woman lots of gifts without a good reason; sucks up to her and tries to "buy" her affection.
- Whines and complains a lot.
- Neediness, and wants the woman to "mother" him.
- Lack of independence. Doesn't have his own separate, lively, fulfilled life.
- Begs and nags for sex
- Lack of ambition, drive and long-term vision
- He's plain boring: does the same thing day in day out, never surprises the woman, doesn't challenge her.QUOTE]


I see someones been reading David DeAngelo's Double Your Dating.

Regarding the OP. I think the willingness to risk being trapped in a relationship by having children or getting married is far more of an expression of love and acceptance than anything I can imagine. I certainly find the prospect of paying child support for eighteen years or allowing another preson to have any say in what i purchase with the result of being in debt or potentially losing half my lifes earnings to be sumewhat dextrimental to my sucess. Ergo, when i find a woman who interest me i take my time to get to know her and i have a list of questions of what i dont want in a woman.

1.Is she superficial?
2.Does she spend all her time talking about now or dwell on the past?
3.Is she easily affected by others opinions?
4.Is she insecure?
5.Does she want to have sex on first date?
6.Does she watch television?
7.Is she educated?
8.Does she read less than 1 book every 2 weeks?
9.Does she dwell on broken relationships?
10.Does she have to be around people?
11.Does she need a "father figure"?
12.Does she seem competitive with her sister(s) or mother?
13.Is she to F***ed up for me?
14.Does she want to spend every moment in the house?
15.Does my not smothering her with affection every 2 secons give her doubts?
16.Does she do drugs?
17.Is she involved in any illegal activities?
18.Is she an impulsive person?
19.Does the ride matter more than the goal?
20.Is she somone Id be ashamed of in 1 year?

Needless to say, If the answers yes, i'd just be setting myself up for failure.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Before I begin, I'll mention that I've only read the first 25 or so posts of this topic, so you'll have to excuse me if I'm just repeating what someone else has already said.

My perspective on this is that it is impossible to truly love someone (in a romantic sense) without sex. I say this because, in my opinion, if there was no sexual dynamic between you and your partner, it would just be a friendship. This dynamic doesn't even have to involve intercourse (at least, not immediately ;D) so long as a tangible desire is there. For me, a healthy romantic relationship involves a girl and I getting to know each other on an intimate level, as well as being able to share/express our sexuality and desires together. If either of those factors is absent, it'll fall apart completely.

Having said that, I'd like to relate the whole sex and love (or more generally speaking, feelings) idea to what I said about "expressing our sexuality and desires together". As some of you may or may not know, most women desire sex just as much as the average guy, in spite of what societal conditioning will influence them to tell you. However, women derive pleasure from sex in different ways than men do.

For us guys, it's mostly a physical thing: being inside her and busting a nut is enough for us to say we enjoyed it. For women, however, emotional stimulation is at LEAST equally important as physical stimulation. It's one thing for a guy to thrust on her for 20 minutes or so. It's another thing entirely for a guy to sweep her off her feet, take the lead, escalate slowly and sensually with foreplay and the like, and then sex her in an affectionately dominant manner like a real man would. Sex like that will do powerful things to a woman's emotions and will give her crazy intense orgasms, because it combines the physical expression of sexuality (penetration) with the emotional expression of sexuality, i.e. the masculine act of sexual dominance and the feminine act of sexual surrender. It'll also have her coming back for lots more ;)

I should add a disclaimer to that, however: there is a big difference between being sexually dominant and being a rapist. I don't at all mean that women enjoy being forced to do a sexual act against their will; I just mean that they like when a man can "read" them and take the initiative to escalate things when she's ready to move to the next level.
You seem to think you know alot about what women find pleasurable in the bedroom.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 4 minutes and 46 seconds later...

Do men disguise sex for affection. Yes. And women disguise it to themselves to. I actually find it a nice expression of affection. It is it, for me. But it is not the basic impulse you have, as a man.

The natural male instinct is to have sex, not to build affection. To build affection is a female instinct. It has an evo-psych explanation. You can understand it as an exchange. Males give affection ( and the bonding that comes with it ), and women gives sex. Its offensively basic for my taste. But look around. :/ It happens quite often.

Sometimes, other benefits can replace affection, such as status, financial security, etc.

It is not that women are not interested in sex, you know better than me. :P But it is a fact, (scientifically proven ) that men are more interested in sex than women. Men are more interested in quantity of sexual partners, while women are comparatively more interested in quality when it comes to find a suitable partner.

"Do they talk trash to cover up..."

Well... men are people. We are different from one another. You can not standardized men, there will always be lots, I mean, LOTS of exceptions when it comes to something as specific as "Do they talk..." Some would, some would not, some would but only in certain scenarios.

Remember... We, men, are people... well... we sometimes we are close to. :D
I get ya. Men are people too.

I guess what I'm wondering about is how much sociallizing/social influence has on how men think about and act on sex. If men (not cavemen, but men of today......please don't tell me what a caveman would do) were given the social green light to experience sex in whatever way they choose, then how would they 'generally' choose to do so?

[Sean O]

You seem to think you know alot about what women find pleasurable in the bedroom.I'm just stating some insights I've had from my personal experiences, that's all :). I have discussed this with a number of friends who have also noticed what I have, so I decided that it is safe to infer that this is true of the majority of women. Since then, my experiences have only further reinforced that inference.

Having said that, I certainly can't claim that the dominance/surrender approach to sex is what every single woman in the WORLD would crave. It may have sounded that way in my post because I didn't feel like adding tons of non-generalizing qualifiers to my statements. My bad.





Sean O added to this post, 10 minutes and 56 seconds later...

I guess what I'm wondering about is how much sociallizing/social influence has on how men think about and act on sex. If men (not cavemen, but men of today......please don't tell me what a caveman would do) were given the social green light to experience sex in whatever way they choose, then how would they 'generally' choose to do so?Actually, come to think of it, it was pretty much when I decided to give myself the green light to experience sex in whatever way I wanted that I stumbled upon my current philosophy on sex. By "give myself the green light", I mean when I decided not to care about the pressure to rack up points on my "score card", and instead focus on the quality of the experience itself. This is just what I chose to do, so I have no idea how well it could apply to men in general, but hey, at least it's something?

[Anon722]

I get ya. Men are people too.

I guess what I'm wondering about is how much sociallizing/social influence has on how men think about and act on sex. If men (not cavemen, but men of today......please don't tell me what a caveman would do) were given the social green light to experience sex in whatever way they choose, then how would they 'generally' choose to do so?

It is a difficult question. How would women "generally" choose to experience sex? I am curious.

Men, ( and I will adventure speaking for my fellow Ms ) are probably going to go for the quantity again.

Is it the caveman response you advised me not to give you? well... neurologically, we are still cavemen! Social customs might have changed, but basic impulses are still the same, and have the same strength as ages ago.

What I mean is that people, a fully mature men, given green light ( open relationship ) will "generally" go for the meat.

But there are tons of other factors involved, like the distribution of power inside the couple, their personality, their interests... I probably will not so eagerly "go for it" a Japanese-cultured men might be less inclined to do it as well.

But that's what I adventure to esteem, anyways I am not an oracle.

:D

Why are you curious about how might a man react to that kind of situation?
Are you considering entering an open relation?

If so, consider your decision with detainment. It might be great, but is might end up in a jealousy nightmare.

Hope you luck !

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I'm just stating some insights I've had from my personal experiences, that's all :). I have discussed this with a number of friends who have also noticed what I have, so I decided that it is safe to infer that this is true of the majority of women. Since then, my experiences have only further reinforced that inference.

Having said that, I certainly can't claim that the dominance/surrender approach to sex is what every single woman in the WORLD would crave. It may have sounded that way in my post because I didn't feel like adding tons of non-generalizing qualifiers to my statements. My bad.





Sean O added to this post, 10 minutes and 56 seconds later...

Actually, come to think of it, it was pretty much when I decided to give myself the green light to experience sex in whatever way I wanted that I stumbled upon my current philosophy on sex. By "give myself the green light", I mean when I decided not to care about the pressure to rack up points on my "score card", and instead focus on the quality of the experience itself. This is just what I chose to do, so I have no idea how well it could apply to men in general, but hey, at least it's something?
Would you give yourself the green light to have sex with the same sex, animals, children if there were no restrictions? Would you express yourself differently during sex if there were absolutley no guidelines or rules of engagement?





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 8 minutes and 49 seconds later...

It is a difficult question. How would women "generally" choose to experience sex? I am curious.

Men, ( and I will adventure speaking for my fellow Ms ) are probably going to go for the quantity again.

Is it the caveman response you advised me not to give you? well... neurologically, we are still cavemen! Social customs might have changed, but basic impulses are still the same, and have the same strength as ages ago.

What I mean is that people, a fully mature men, given green light ( open relationship ) will "generally" go for the meat.

But there are tons of other factors involved, like the distribution of power inside the couple, their personality, their interests... I probably will not so eagerly "go for it" a Japanese-cultured men might be less inclined to do it as well.

But that's what I adventure to esteem, anyways I am not an oracle.

:D

Why are you curious about how might a man react to that kind of situation?
Are you considering entering an open relation?

If so, consider your decision with detainment. It might be great, but is might end up in a jealousy nightmare.

Hope you luck !
No. No. Nothing like that. I'm really just curious about men's fascination with sex. I'm trying to understand it. The answers I get are usually aimed at making fun or avoiding any real, deep analysis. This leads me to believe that something is being overlooked or avoided on purpose.

I don't like the caveman analogy because I think that men are really not near as much a slave to their biology as those men were. Men have been reared in a completely different environment and are much more intelligent and emotionally ahead of the game than their upright walking ancestors. This gives them a whole different view of things.

Also, even if most men were to run about sowing their wild oats initially..........I wonder how long that would last and how things would be once the initial titilation was dealt with and getting old. I have seen men who could get anyone they want (and did) end up settling down with just one very compatable woman.

[ElstonGunn]

I don't like the caveman analogy because I think that men are really not near as much a slave to their biology as those men were.

I agree, but it does make for a convenient and relatively decent excuse. "I can't help it. It's biology, it's natural." And we all know that instincts can't be controlled. That's why we're always pissing on the floors of our houses as a way of marking our respective territories, right?

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I agree, but it does make for a convenient and relatively decent excuse. "I can't help it. It's biology, it's natural." And we all know that instincts can't be controlled. That's why we're always pissing on the floors of our houses as a way of marking our respective territories, right?
Exactly. I also question whether humans even have such a thing as instinct. I tend to think not. Impulses yes. But even impulses can probably be explained by some pavlovian experience.

[Sean O]

Would you give yourself the green light to have sex with the same sex, animals, children if there were no restrictions? Would you express yourself differently during sex if there were absolutley no guidelines or rules of engagement?Oh... is that the kind of thing you were referring to? :stunned: To answer the first question, no, no, and no; there is nothing sexually attractive to me about other men, children, or animals. I would also have to say that any properly-developed man would have no desire to have sex with children or animals (so there's a partial answer for men "in general").

As for the second question... if we're specifically talking about sex, I'm not sure what guidelines or rules of engagement you're referring to, other than perhaps making sure there is mutual consent. As for how I express myself during sex... I express myself however I damn well please ;). That usually amounts to expressing myself in whatever way feels natural, which usually amounts to the whole "affectionate dominance" thing I was talking about earlier. I make no apologies whatsoever for my desires, because a) they're perfectly natural, and b) I know I'll be considerate about it and won't lose control of myself in the process. As a result, my desire manifests itself without inhibition, and it just so happens that it takes the form of affectionate dominance.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Oh... is that the kind of thing you were referring to? :stunned: To answer the first question, no, no, and no; there is nothing sexually attractive to me about other men, children, or animals. I would also have to say that any properly-developed man would have no desire to have sex with children or animals (so there's a partial answer for men "in general").

As for the second question... if we're specifically talking about sex, I'm not sure what guidelines or rules of engagement you're referring to, other than perhaps making sure there is mutual consent. As for how I express myself during sex... I express myself however I damn well please ;). That usually amounts to expressing myself in whatever way feels natural, which usually amounts to the whole "affectionate dominance" thing I was talking about earlier. I make no apologies whatsoever for my desires, because a) they're perfectly natural, and b) I know I'll be considerate about it and won't lose control of myself in the process. As a result, my desire manifests itself without inhibition, and it just so happens that it takes the form of affectionate dominance.
O.K. But, I hope you understand that there are alot of men out there that would say ....rape a woman if they thought they could get away with it, that have had sex at least once with an animal, that fantisize about having sex with other men (on the down-low) or had such an experience at some point, have paid a woman to sexually dominate them, have dressed up like a baby or child and been nursed by a woman, have engaged in bondage and/or S&M, go out dressed like a woman in order to feel what it is like to be treated like a woman etc.

[Sean O]

O.K. But, I hope you understand that there are alot of men out there that would say ....rape a woman if they thought they could get away with it, that have had sex at least once with an animal, that fantisize about having sex with other men (on the down-low) or had such an experience at some point, have paid a woman to sexually dominate them, have dressed up like a baby or child and been nursed by a woman, have engaged in bondage and/or S&M, go out dressed like a woman in order to feel what it is like to be treated like a woman etc.Well, there are without a doubt some maladjusted individuals out there who would desire to do things like that (though, to be fair, the ones who secretly fantasize about having sex with other men may just be closet homosexuals). However, even if you omit the ones who would be inclined to do the things you have described, there are still so many people (both men AND women) who have such a warped perception about what human sexuality actually is. I believe this is a result of this tendency of many industrialized societies to overemphasize the superficial qualities of life and ultimately ignore the deeper aspects. People are conditioned from a young age to develop themselves from the outside in, but because there isn't much focus on internal development, most people end up just developing themselves on the outside. In the case of sexuality, the result is that people tend to approach sex and other things related to sexuality in superficial terms. It's a very inhuman approach to such a fundamental aspect of human nature, and it wouldn't surprise me if it could lead some people to act in inhuman ways like you have described.

[Henry]

O.K. But, I hope you understand that there are alot of men out there that would say ....rape a woman if they thought they could get away with it, that have had sex at least once with an animal,

You must be basing this on men you have known, because I have never had a desire to rape or have sex with an animal.



that fantisize about having sex with other men (on the down-low) or had such an experience at some point, have paid a woman to sexually dominate them, have dressed up like a baby or child and been nursed by a woman, have engaged in bondage and/or S&M, go out dressed like a woman in order to feel what it is like to be treated like a woman etc.

I'm sorry, but two points:

1. You are basing this on your own experience.

2. Even if a large number of men wanted to engage in kinky behavior between consenting adults, how is this a negative? Have I missed some obscure philosophical point in the thread where kinky acts between consenting adults=bad?


Would you express yourself differently during sex if there were absolutley no guidelines or rules of engagement?

Not really. I've talked about all of my kinks with my partner, and visa versa. Some have become more than fantasy, others stay that way. In either case, no big deal.

A more pressing question: why do other people's kinks that involve only consenting adults bother you?

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Well, there are without a doubt some maladjusted individuals out there who would desire to do things like that (though, to be fair, the ones who secretly fantasize about having sex with other men may just be closet homosexuals). However, even if you omit the ones who would be inclined to do the things you have described, there are still so many people (both men AND women) who have such a warped perception about what human sexuality actually is. I believe this is a result of this tendency of many industrialized societies to overemphasize the superficial qualities of life and ultimately ignore the deeper aspects. People are conditioned from a young age to develop themselves from the outside in, but because there isn't much focus on internal development, most people end up just developing themselves on the outside. In the case of sexuality, the result is that people tend to approach sex and other things related to sexuality in superficial terms. It's a very inhuman approach to such a fundamental aspect of human nature, and it wouldn't surprise me if it could lead some people to act in inhuman ways like you have described.
I agree with your analysis of the superficiality of society, however, I wonder if that has not spilled over into our sexuality in such a way that we are conditioned to respond sexually based on what society tells us we 'should' like and do.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 4 minutes and 10 seconds later...

You must be basing this on men you have known, because I have never had a desire to rape or have sex with an animal.





I'm sorry, but two points:

1. You are basing this on your own experience.

2. Even if a large number of men wanted to engage in kinky behavior between consenting adults, how is this a negative? Have I missed some obscure philosophical point in the thread where kinky acts between consenting adults=bad?




Not really. I've talked about all of my kinks with my partner, and visa versa. Some have become more than fantasy, others stay that way. In either case, no big deal.

A more pressing question: why do other people's kinks that involve only consenting adults bother you?
This is not based on my own personal experience so there is no need for you to apologize. Although, even if it was based on my own personal experience.........there would still be no need for you to apologize.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with engaging in kinky behavior and I'm not sure how I gave you the impression that this bothered me. However, in the interest of clarification.........it doesn't.

My main interest is in how much our sexual selves are limited based on social pressure/conditioning. And I am particularily interested in this in men.

[Sean O]

I agree with your analysis of the superficiality of society, however, I wonder if that has not spilled over into our sexuality in such a way that we are conditioned to respond sexually based on what society tells us we 'should' like and do.Oh, without a doubt, the average (usually weak-willed, if I may be blunt) person will definitely get caught in the trap of looking to larger society for cues on how to be and what to think, and I've definitely noticed this spilling over into human sexuality. You can notice this in a number of little things, such as society's obsession with appearance and material lust and how it relates to a person's eligibility as a sexual partner. However, the area where I notice it the most is definitely in people's personalities. Have you ever known a guy who fits the definition of "macho" very well but somehow doesn't seem to qualify as masculine? I definitely have. And I've also known plenty of women who have acting like glamour-queens down to a science, but still just aren't that feminine. In both cases, these people are trying to develop and assert their sexuality the way they learned to from what society tells them about it, which is ultimately superficial. This kind of behaviour is reinforced when other people respond positively to their pseudo-sexuality, because said people are looking for these superficial traits when deciding who is a high-value sexual partner (again, because society told them to).

As for why masculinity and femininity are hard to find these days, I believe it's because those qualities must develop internally, rather than externally, and as we've already discussed society does not place much emphasis on internal development, so most people don't do it (at least not until they're much older).

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Oh, without a doubt, the average (usually weak-willed, if I may be blunt) person will definitely get caught in the trap of looking to larger society for cues on how to be and what to think, and I've definitely noticed this spilling over into human sexuality. You can notice this in a number of little things, such as society's obsession with appearance and material lust and how it relates to a person's eligibility as a sexual partner. However, the area where I notice it the most is definitely in people's personalities. Have you ever known a guy who fits the definition of "macho" very well but somehow doesn't seem to qualify as masculine? I definitely have. And I've also known plenty of women who have acting like glamour-queens down to a science, but still just aren't that feminine. In both cases, these people are trying to develop and assert their sexuality the way they learned to from what society tells them about it, which is ultimately superficial. This kind of behaviour is reinforced when other people respond positively to their pseudo-sexuality, because said people are looking for these superficial traits when deciding who is a high-value sexual partner (again, because society told them to).

As for why masculinity and femininity are hard to find these days, I believe it's because those qualities must develop internally, rather than externally, and as we've already discussed society does not place much emphasis on internal development, so most people don't do it (at least not until they're much older).
I've also found that individuals who may be attracted to someone are reticent to act on this attraction based on what others will think of their choice. Rather than find someone they are attracted to, they tend to look for someone that they think everyone lese will approve of.

[Sean O]

I've also found that individuals who may be attracted to someone are reticent to act on this attraction based on what others will think of their choice. Rather than find someone they are attracted to, they tend to look for someone that they think everyone else will approve of.Yeah, I've known people who are like that, too. I've never understood why some people can be so afraid of others' opinions. Sure, it matters to some extent in the sense that it's best to not be on anyone's bad side if you can avoid it, but being concerned with what others think of you to the point where it affects your love life is a bit extreme.

I've also often wondered if the predominance of extroversion in the general population is responsible for these kinds of mentalities. I've read that extroverts tend to be concerned with fitting themselves into the world, as opposed to introverts, who like to fit the world into themselves. Perhaps this makes the average (extroverted) person more susceptible to being taken in by mainstream values and perspectives?

[ScurvyRose]

I never used any outside measures for making decisions in or for a relationship. If I support the relationship, so will everyone else in my life. If I have doubt, then it will not be welcomed by others. Who cares what other people think if the relationship is what you want.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Yeah, I've known people who are like that, too. I've never understood why some people can be so afraid of others' opinions. Sure, it matters to some extent in the sense that it's best to not be on anyone's bad side if you can avoid it, but being concerned with what others think of you to the point where it affects your love life is a bit extreme.

I've also often wondered if the predominance of extroversion in the general population is responsible for these kinds of mentalities. I've read that extroverts tend to be concerned with fitting themselves into the world, as opposed to introverts, who like to fit the world into themselves. Perhaps this makes the average (extroverted) person more susceptible to being taken in by mainstream values and perspectives?
That sounds dead on to me.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 1 minutes and 10 seconds later...

I never used any outside measures for making decisions in or for a relationship. If I support the relationship, so will everyone else in my life. If I have doubt, then it will not be welcomed by others. Who cares what other people think if the relationship is what you want.
That's probably because your an INTJ.

[ScurvyRose]

Hear, Hear!! I wouldn't want to be any other type!

[NephilimAzrael]

"Women need to feel loved to have sex,
Men need to have sex to feel loved,
So one of them has got to be lying somewhere along the line" -Dylan Moran, Irish comedian