Do INTJs enjoy leadership?

[Jezebel]

Do you like to be in leadership positions? Do you aim to be a leader, or only take the position when nobody else is willing/competent? How many of you are in or have filled leadership roles?

[wise]

This is why I don't think I'm an INTJ Mastermind. In reading the supposed basic traits of INTJs, natural leader seemed to be consistently listed. That is not me.

I actually used to be an HR manager. I felt like a square peg in a round hole, to say the least.

I am very curious to read the rest of the responses in this thread.

[Guido]

If I was stuck in a leadership position I don't think I'd like it all that much. Leading is something I think I'm good at when I have to do it, but it's not something I overly enjoy. I'll do it if there isn't another leader (because well, you sometimes really need one) or because the current leader is being an incomp. If someone can step up and do an ok job, I'm usually happy with that. So long as they don't tread of my space :D

[Lufus]

I consider myself a natural leader; I'll always be the one to speak up in groups, and generally drive us towards a general direction.
Not that it means much, but I was President of several organizations in High School.

[TeleportThis]

If I was stuck in a leadership position I don't think I'd like it all that much. Leading is something I think I'm good at when I have to do it, but it's not something I overly enjoy. I'll do it if there isn't another leader (because well, you sometimes really need one) or because the current leader is being an incomp. If someone can step up and do an ok job, I'm usually happy with that. So long as they don't tread of my space :D


Exactly.

[Rei]

As most profiles that describe INTJ's state...

I generally try to stay out of being the leader as much as possible. *But when there's no one else to step in, and things are getting either hectic or unbearably inefficient, I just have to do it. *And in the most humble way an INTJ can say this... I actually think I do it pretty well. *The NTJ really makes leading a natural talent. Buuuut that's just my opinion.

But I enjoy being a supportive role much more. It gives me more freedom for one... for another, it makes my I more comfortable.

[Tarrick]

Leadership is something that INTJs will do reluctantly in my opinion, because it really means that the "I" has to temporarily be "E". Hence we're simulating an "ENTJ". And ENTJs' have no problems leading anything. So, the less "I" an INTJ is, the easier it is for them to lead.

[Opti]

I've just made it as a retail manager, It has come natural (As in no one has trained me on leadership). It is easy & enjoyable to lead & motivate those that want to learn & develop. It is a lot harder to reach out to people that have either become demotivated by previous management experience or if they are, lets say, just not interested.

I have on occasion stepped up to lead part of the management team when there was clearly no one taking the lead. I have however made many mistakes in my approach to managing those 'above' me, but I have learnt from them.

Without droning on, yes I do enjoy leadership & it is challenging. I aspire to be a great leader.

Edited to Add: I am very 'I'

[wise]

Leadership is something that INTJs will do reluctantly in my opinion, because it really means that the "I" has to temporarily be "E". Hence we're simulating an "ENTJ". And ENTJs' have no problems leading anything. So, the less "I" an INTJ is, the easier it is for them to lead.

This explains, if I were a true INTJ, why I loathe leading. "I" is the trait I have the most of. One recent test I took described me as 100% "I", and much less of the others. On the other extreme another test gave me a "J" of 1.

I have been reading again some of the descriptions of INTJ and it does indicate their tendency to be natural leaders, but in many cases, only when thrust upon them.

This is new to me really, so forgive me if I get the lines blurred between INTJ and INTP.

[rwyatt365]

If I was stuck in a leadership position I don't think I'd like it all that much. Leading is something I think I'm good at when I have to do it, but it's not something I overly enjoy. I'll do it if there isn't another leader (because well, you sometimes really need one) or because the current leader is being an incomp. If someone can step up and do an ok job, I'm usually happy with that. So long as they don't tread of my space :D

Ditto.

Typically I step in when I perceive the existing leadership to be incompetent or incapable (which, unfortunately, is often). A neat trick that has worked for me is to step into a "coachin" position with that leader, help them formulate better plans or strategies and let them bask in the spotlight. Of course that has done nothing for my career, but...oh well.

[Doppelbock]

I think what INTJ's (or at least me) value most is autonomy. Leadership when nobody else will do it; autonomy whenever at all possible. So it's not that the INTJ likes leading, it's that (s)he doesn't like being led, and will often step up to lead rather than having to be subservient to someone who is not really his/her better.

DB

[Firelie]

I prefer to be the close advisor to the leader or 2nd in command rather than the leader myself, but I don't mind being leader all that much as long as I'm not the expected to come up with ALL of the ideas and decisions (in other words, I need the people I'm leading to have working brains that can think on their own and give input). *

[Opti]

I think what INTJ's (or at least me) value most is autonomy. *Leadership when nobody else will do it; autonomy whenever at all possible. *So it's not that the INTJ likes leading, it's that (s)he doesn't like being led, and will often step up to lead rather than having to be subservient to someone who is not really his/her better.

DB

For me you have hit the nail on the head there DB. I would be interested to know how you handled stepping up and if you met any resistance.

[Doppelbock]

I think what INTJ's (or at least me) value most is autonomy. Leadership when nobody else will do it; autonomy whenever at all possible. So it's not that the INTJ likes leading, it's that (s)he doesn't like being led, and will often step up to lead rather than having to be subservient to someone who is not really his/her better.

DB

For me you have hit the nail on the head there DB. I would be interested to know how you handled stepping up and if you met any resistance.


I have no problem being the leader on a project although running large meetings and making sure all the communications happen can be a bit bothersome for an introvert. Didn't meet any resistance, mostly because I wasn't fighting against anyone for the leadership role. I think INTJ's in general do not have much trouble stepping into leadership roles because we tend to come across as (and actually be) pretty confident in ourselves, more so than the other MBTI types. We also tend not to meet too much resistance because we generally don't seek the leadership role unless there is no other clear choice.

DB

[Rei]

If I was stuck in a leadership position I don't think I'd like it all that much. Leading is something I think I'm good at when I have to do it, but it's not something I overly enjoy. I'll do it if there isn't another leader (because well, you sometimes really need one) or because the current leader is being an incomp. If someone can step up and do an ok job, I'm usually happy with that. So long as they don't tread of my space :D

Ditto.

Typically I step in when I perceive the existing leadership to be incompetent or incapable (which, unfortunately, is often). A neat trick that has worked for me is to step into a "coachin" position with that leader, help them formulate better plans or strategies and let them bask in the spotlight. Of course that has done nothing for my career, but...oh well.


My point exactly. To be the king's right hand man is always better than being the king. (hence I have no clue what the hell Hamlet was thinking... but anyhoo) I don't think INTJ's use these things to get ahead. We're not meant to work in a place that involves that kind of competition. Reason why I'll probably never work an office job.

[The Rose]

If I was stuck in a leadership position I don't think I'd like it all that much. Leading is something I think I'm good at when I have to do it, but it's not something I overly enjoy. I'll do it if there isn't another leader (because well, you sometimes really need one) or because the current leader is being an incomp. If someone can step up and do an ok job, I'm usually happy with that. So long as they don't tread of my space :D


Exactly.Me three.

[The Rose]

I think what INTJ's (or at least me) value most is autonomy. *Leadership when nobody else will do it; autonomy whenever at all possible. *So it's not that the INTJ likes leading, it's that (s)he doesn't like being led, and will often step up to lead rather than having to be subservient to someone who is not really his/her better.

DBI'll second THAT!

[Evalis]

If I was stuck in a leadership position I don't think I'd like it all that much. Leading is something I think I'm good at when I have to do it, but it's not something I overly enjoy. I'll do it if there isn't another leader (because well, you sometimes really need one) or because the current leader is being an incomp. If someone can step up and do an ok job, I'm usually happy with that. So long as they don't tread of my space :D

I'm going to hop on this bandwagon as well. (I saw fruits in there.. and they seemed tasty!)

I would much prefer a role that placed me in the 'advisory' position of any given leader. This often happens unintentionally, in that I cannot prevent myself from responding with alternatives/solutions to idiodically structured ideas. Just knowing that someone is going to make a mistake which will roll down through the company and in turn cause me to do something inane or inneficient makes me want to jump up and replace the current leader until someone else more competant comes along

[wedekit]

I only step up to leadership when:

1) No one else volunteers.
2) The person who volunteers is incapable of efficiency.

I normally don't like it because I have delegation problems. I have found that if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.

[wise]

I only step up to leadership when:

1) No one else volunteers.
2) The person who volunteers is incapable of efficiency.

I normally don't like it because I have delegation problems. I have found that if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.

I was a terrible supervisor because I too had delegation problems. I was trying to do the jobs of three other people while my own duties were enough for two already. I just couldn't trust anyone to do anything right, i.e. the way I would do it.

[wedekit]

And when you are the leader, all the finished products represent you.

[Rei]

Actually I was quite good at that.
It's probably because I'm ridiculously lazy and I wouldn't want to do everything myself. There's always at least one other person who's relatively capable of work as long as they are assigned a job (because otherwise they don't know what to do).
And usually, if you pair stupid people with the capable ones to keep an eye on them. Then just get them to ask you for confirmation and you examine the progress from time to time, fixing any problems; and voila, you have a finished product.

A lot of the time people are not TOOO stupid... they just need help deciding the 'right' thing.

[Tarrick]

A lot of the time people are not TOOO stupid... they just need help deciding the 'right' thing.

A good point, Rei. Leading doesn't mean you are telling idiotic what what keystrokes need to be hit. It (should be) you directing and focusing a individual/group in a direction to accomplish a goal as quickly and smoothly as possible.

[Evalis]

I disagree Tarrick.. people ARE stupid. Or rather.. they are more often than not unmotivated enough to use the intelligence they were blessed with. Additionally, the vast majority of people are externally motivated. Meaning that they require some sort of prize or reward to seek the completion of a task.

It greatly confuses me that someone will perform better after attending a company golf tournament than they would normally. 'Liking' their supervisor for some reason matters in the quality of work they are willing to put out. Essentially this means that managing is no longer just about detailing the creation of a quality product or service; it instead includes the additional workload of trying to motivate and select staff members so that they competantly perform the job..

I'd rather just deal with the processes involved, and let someone else handle the PR. Non-personal power doesn't interest me.

[Rei]

I disagree Tarrick.. people ARE stupid. Or rather.. they are more often than not unmotivated enough to use the intelligence they were blessed with. Additionally, the vast majority of people are externally motivated. Meaning that they require some sort of prize or reward to seek the completion of a task.

It greatly confuses me that someone will perform better after attending a company golf tournament than they would normally. 'Liking' their supervisor for some reason matters in the quality of work they are willing to put out. Essentially this means that managing is no longer just about detailing the creation of a quality product or service; it instead includes the additional workload of trying to motivate and select staff members so that they competantly perform the job..

I'd rather just deal with the processes involved, and let someone else handle the PR. Non-personal power doesn't interest me.

Well that's just your opinion on people.
And, how about passing the course/keeping the job as the prize? Generally, if they don't do anything, a very serious talk to kick them in the ass will make them keep off of it.

[Tarrick]

I disagree Tarrick.. people ARE stupid. Or rather.. they are more often than not unmotivated enough to use the intelligence they were blessed with. Additionally, the vast majority of people are externally motivated. Meaning that they require some sort of prize or reward to seek the completion of a task.

It's Stupid vs Ignorant I think here. You can have some very smart people that just don't get how to move from step 1 to step 5. That's why they need leaders.
As for motivation, I agree. A lot of people simply need to be told what to do. Its part of how they were raised, part their temperament.

[Evalis]

And, how about passing the course/keeping the job as the prize? *Generally, if they don't do anything, a very serious talk to kick them in the ass will make them keep off of it.

This is.. precisely my point. There is no such motivational requirement for myself, nor should their ever be for anyone else. Keeping the job is irrelevant if the work is substandard, as the customers, other workers, and potentially (depending on the nature of the company) society in general suffers. This is aside from the fact that performing the task already comes with a reward (income) that was already agreed upon at the time of hiring. If the wages are unsatisfactory to perform at your best effort, you are morally obligated demand a wage that is, or to leave and find another job that does.

Your second statement is a perfect example of the wasted effort I was referring to. I did not intend to infer that leadership was difficult in any way, but rather that it was an additional ammount of - what should be uneeded - effort to conform to those that are less capable of motivating themselves.

[Rei]

As Tarrick says, its part of how they were raised, part their temperament. Doesn't mean they're stupid.

It is why a leader is needed to give them a job. People usually put off doing things b/c they are too lazy to decide what to do first. If assigned something specific, they'll - if grudgingly - do it. If they don't, they deserve to be fired anyway.


Fix'd my name -T

[wedekit]

By leadership I am only referring to group projects I have to do in school. I HATE group projects; I always end up doing the work anyway...

[Rei]

LOL! Sorry Tarrick... I'm disastrous...

I hate group projects too... but mostly because I hate having to keep meeting up with people.

[deicruxified]

hi i'm new... just getting to feel the site a bit...

well anyway, back to topic: do i enjoy leadership? it actually depends on the situation. like some here, i don't enjoy leadership to some extent. if i think something's wrong, then i step up. i'd like to be in the far end observing a lot of things. i feel everything's well with my lead, i'll stay loyal and quiet. on the otherhand, if no one takes the responsibility, then it's the time a decide to become the leader but i depend the decision on what everyone thinks then fix it coz it will be more efficient having people do what they want. if ever i want to make a point i display pros and cons and let them decide... just what i am doing in our mountaineering club. and i don't like getting the credit for accomplishments most of the time especially if i don't like my job.

i used to be a systems analyst in a large multinational company with a s** supervisor. s** meaning he's been abusing their powers like cheating on time cards in spite of the fact that the whole staff knows he's been late for more than an hour... and other stuff... i kept quiet til the company evaluation day when we got to have our superiors evaluated by us.. said all the stuff... fortunately for them they were spying on our sheets and got to have read mine so i was on counseling... one on one with the supervisor and he was like sweet... "i want to know more of you" and he admitted that he knows that a lot of people hated him and wanted me to "spy" on them coz i'm the most quiet person there... unfortunately for him, being the schemer that i am, i made sure i submitted the online evaluation (what everyone else forgot so he was altering them) so he got fired weeks after i filed my resignation (coz it came to the it's-either-i-fire-you-or-you-resign) ;D getting a resignation's cleaner than getting fired *;D so i guess i won

[bikerscars]

i lead only when there are no other options...

i was never big on babysitting

[Apococlock]

I have no problem with leadership. While I am very rarely to be the first person to jump up and raise my hand and take the leader position, I am often voted as the leader without the exchange of words.

I suppose it is sort of the "Natural Leader" sort of deal. Unlike most of you though, I kind of enjoy it because often time other leaders are so incompetent that's it's almost mind numbing to listen to what they have to say, especially if I already have a better solution. I will watch them crash and burn however before I take change, that is the INTJ way after all...

[Firebert]

I don't know. I've always been alright with someone else leading. But I guess like most other people here, if they're going to be a complete moron, I step up. It's not always the most fun thing to do, but it works pretty well. I find that I'm a pretty low intensity leader, I just keep the guidelines straight and try to let them work within the guidelines.

[INTJohn]

INTJ's are the absolute best leaders in all of Humanity, because the best leaders are the ones who don't want the job.

INTJohn

[rasoirviolon]

INTJ's are the absolute best leaders in all of Humanity, because the best leaders are the ones who don't want the job.

INTJohn
nicely put. it's a little interesting that since the "best" leaders don't want the job does that mean those who actually take it up are not really suited for it? hmm but if you actually want this role wouldn't you work towards grooming yourself so as to increase your chances of attaining it and fitting its description. ...maybe doing that doesn't really mean you'll be the best one. ...going in never-ending circles again with my thoughts

[mind_wander]

I have meet an ENTJ's, they are the true natural born leaders; the conversations are the best. Because its more or less on the plains of intellectual conversation. When speaking with an ENTJ, I felt like in a live class, which I can communicated better compared to in a college classroom atmosphere; wished there is more INTJ's in class, then I can chat more.

Thats a very good question, the people who fit for that job are even better actually. They are more prepared, as for people who don't want the job because we INTJ's like to find the loopholes and fix them. As the people who fit the job go after the main objectives; you can say that the people who don't want the job are maintenance workers.

[INTJoe]

For me, the idea of being a leader is fascinating for me. *I aspire to someday lead people in business (or put another way, have minions working for me!).

However, I have noticed that when in a leadership role, my character feels assailed when questioned a lot. *I noticed this last winter when I managed an adult baseball team that I played on. *I'm very good at, and knowledgeable about baseball, and so being a "mastermind", managing the team was simple for me. *However, players on the team would incorrectly read me as weak, and would question my decisions (when in fact, I had already thought their concern through, and was a step or two ahead of them). *At this point, I get very pissed off because they are bugging me about stuff that isn't to be a concern for them. *But being how I am, I find it hard to calmly explain this to them and put them at ease. *This leads to me either ignoring their concern (because to me, it isn't a concern), or being short with them, and it escalates the situation, and I come off as either more and more weak, or less and less prepared. *(When in fact I'm neither).

I believe INTJ's are "natural leaders" in another sense of the words. *In a major crisis, I am probably the best type of person to be around. *Although the idea of future crisis puts me at unease, when I find myself thrust into crisis, I flourish. *I have anecdotes, but I don't feel like typing them all out. *Suffice it to say, when things suddenly get really stressful, I seem to remain more and more calm while others are freaking out.

It is in this context, that I believe INTJ's to be "natural leaders". *We are "quiet strong" types, and we remain ridiculously rational when chaos is inundating us. *What sucks is that these situations happen rarely enough that others don't get to often see us shine as pillars of strengh...people you want to be around when the "sh*t hits the fan".

I don't know if anyone else would agree with this, but if see, please post your thoughts.

I do believe we can flourish as business leaders WHEN WE DO NOT HAVE PEOPLE CONSTANTLY ASSAILING US over petty sh*t. *We need to be able to put people at ease promptly, or prepare to be assailed.

::)

EDIT: I forgot to add that a well-known example of an INTJ's quiet, strong leadership was Rudy Giuliani during the September 11th attacks. He is listed as INTJ, and, regardless of your political affiliation, one must admit that his strength on that most chaotic day was truly amazing. He even stated shortly after that when things get more and more stressful, he gets more and more calm, which is consistent with how I've felt in the past.

[snoogit]

At both of my jobs I always look for ways to make things better, and how to do them, and a few times I've been blocked by management. At those times I tend to take the matter into my own hands and gradually move the powers that be either into my camp, or pick them off (get promoted over management) one by one so I can get to my goal.

[mind_wander]

For me, the idea of being a leader is fascinating for me. *I aspire to someday lead people in business (or put another way, have minions working for me!).

However, I have noticed that when in a leadership role, my character feels assailed when questioned a lot. *I noticed this last winter when I managed an adult baseball team that I played on. *I'm very good at, and knowledgeable about baseball, and so being a "mastermind", managing the team was simple for me. *However, players on the team would incorrectly read me as weak, and would question my decisions (when in fact, I had already thought their concern through, and was a step or two ahead of them). *At this point, I get very pissed off because they are bugging me about stuff that isn't to be a concern for them. *But being how I am, I find it hard to calmly explain this to them and put them at ease. *This leads to me either ignoring their concern (because to me, it isn't a concern), or being short with them, and it escalates the situation, and I come off as either more and more weak, or less and less prepared. *(When in fact I'm neither).

I believe INTJ's are "natural leaders" in another sense of the words. *In a major crisis, I am probably the best type of person to be around. *Although the idea of future crisis puts me at unease, when I find myself thrust into crisis, I flourish. *I have anecdotes, but I don't feel like typing them all out. *Suffice it to say, when things suddenly get really stressful, I seem to remain more and more calm while others are freaking out.

It is in this context, that I believe INTJ's to be "natural leaders". *We are "quiet strong" types, and we remain ridiculously rational when chaos is inundating us. *What sucks is that these situations happen rarely enough that others don't get to often see us shine as pillars of strengh...people you want to be around when the "sh*t hits the fan".

I don't know if anyone else would agree with this, but if see, please post your thoughts.

I do believe we can flourish as business leaders WHEN WE DO NOT HAVE PEOPLE CONSTANTLY ASSAILING US over petty sh*t. *We need to be able to put people at ease promptly, or prepare to be assailed.

::)

EDIT: *I forgot to add that a well-known example of an INTJ's quiet, strong leadership was Rudy Giuliani during the September 11th attacks. *He is listed as INTJ, and, regardless of your political affiliation, one must admit that his strength on that most chaotic day was truly amazing. *He even stated shortly after that when things get more and more stressful, he gets more and more calm, which is consistent with how I've felt in the past.
Um, this question about assailing is not that hard to define. People read you as weak because your more introverted. I know you got the skills to do the process, its how people read you from the outside more than the inside at first glance. Dude, I know exactly what you mean; remember this, when you plan is a success, they throw those questions out the window and they will follow you. Don't quote me on that.

[Iannus Quirinus]

I don't enjoy leading much. I like to be "the power behind the throne". :)
But if the situation calls for it, I'll step in and lead, as other people here mentioned.
When leading, I tend to recommend and guide someone to do something, rather than order them directly.

[Iannus Quirinus]

For me, the idea of being a leader is fascinating for me. I aspire to someday lead people in business (or put another way, have minions working for me!).

However, I have noticed that when in a leadership role, my character feels assailed when questioned a lot. I noticed this last winter when I managed an adult baseball team that I played on. I'm very good at, and knowledgeable about baseball, and so being a "mastermind", managing the team was simple for me. However, players on the team would incorrectly read me as weak, and would question my decisions (when in fact, I had already thought their concern through, and was a step or two ahead of them). At this point, I get very pissed off because they are bugging me about stuff that isn't to be a concern for them. But being how I am, I find it hard to calmly explain this to them and put them at ease. This leads to me either ignoring their concern (because to me, it isn't a concern), or being short with them, and it escalates the situation, and I come off as either more and more weak, or less and less prepared. (When in fact I'm neither).

I believe INTJ's are "natural leaders" in another sense of the words. In a major crisis, I am probably the best type of person to be around. Although the idea of future crisis puts me at unease, when I find myself thrust into crisis, I flourish. I have anecdotes, but I don't feel like typing them all out. Suffice it to say, when things suddenly get really stressful, I seem to remain more and more calm while others are freaking out.

It is in this context, that I believe INTJ's to be "natural leaders". We are "quiet strong" types, and we remain ridiculously rational when chaos is inundating us. What sucks is that these situations happen rarely enough that others don't get to often see us shine as pillars of strengh...people you want to be around when the "sh*t hits the fan".

I don't know if anyone else would agree with this, but if see, please post your thoughts.

I do believe we can flourish as business leaders WHEN WE DO NOT HAVE PEOPLE CONSTANTLY ASSAILING US over petty sh*t. We need to be able to put people at ease promptly, or prepare to be assailed.

::)

EDIT: I forgot to add that a well-known example of an INTJ's quiet, strong leadership was Rudy Giuliani during the September 11th attacks. He is listed as INTJ, and, regardless of your political affiliation, one must admit that his strength on that most chaotic day was truly amazing. He even stated shortly after that when things get more and more stressful, he gets more and more calm, which is consistent with how I've felt in the past.

I agree, in crisis, INTJ is probably the best leader, but in social interaction-type leader position, ENTJ is better, just becouse they can make people believe them/listen to them easier. Though I don't have much knowledge on the types, so I'm just speculating here.

My stance on leading:
I don't enjoy leading much. I like to be "the power behind the throne". :)
But if the situation calls for it, I'll step in and lead, as other people here mentioned.
When leading, I tend to recommend and guide someone to do something, rather than order them directly.

[GOD]

This is why I don't think I'm an INTJ Mastermind. In reading the supposed basic traits of INTJs, natural leader seemed to be consistently listed. That is not me.

I actually used to be an HR manager. I felt like a square peg in a round hole, to say the least.

I am very curious to read the rest of the responses in this thread.

I don't think a HR manager is the "leader" that the Keirsey definition alludes to.

HR is very touchy feely and we do call it the "Human Remains" department for a reason.

A leader in my definition is someone that grabs hold of a situation and kicks ass, they get the job done. You'll see the real INTJ's come out say, when an IT project is falling on its knees...

I believe that large corporates have become so "corrupted" intellectually towards ST that people like me need to step out and create the highly aggressive SME's simply to self actualise and use our "abilities".

[thegnat]

I'll take up a position if
a) I'm comfortable with the subject
b) I know the subject better than others
c) If I feel like we're being inefficient and I have a better plan.

I think what makes INTJs great leaders are the following:
a) INTJs know what they know and what they don't know. So they can use their strengths when dividing up work.
b) INTJs are efficient and can't stand inefficiency.
c) Organized
d) good planners
e) Know a lot about their respective subjects

my weaknesses:
a) I can't seem to get people to see my plan easily sometimes. Or understand what it is. I explained something to a group member once and she was just like "huh?"
b) I don't have confidence that people will be willing to listen to me. Or do their work. Sometimes I can't get them to listen to me. Or they just don't understand what I'm saying. Half the time I end up doing more than my fair share of work due to others not doing their part.

[GOD]

I'll take up a position if
a) I'm comfortable with the subject
b) I know the subject better than others
c) If I feel like we're being inefficient and I have a better plan.

The more knowledge you acquire the more confident you'll get.


I think what makes INTJs great leaders are the following:
a) INTJs know what they know and what they don't know. *So they can use their strengths when dividing up work.
b) INTJs are efficient and can't stand inefficiency. *
c) Organized
d) good planners
e) Know a lot about their respective subjects


In addition to all the above the pivotal difference in IMHO is the ability to prioritise (plan) on a cost benefit basis. They think from left to right rather than right to left. (The right is the conclusion and often it is bounded by a specific time, hence you need to crunch time to get delivery when everything has gone what we call "pear shaped". Left to right thinking is what the sensors do.


my weaknesses:
a) I can't seem to get people to see my plan easily sometimes. *Or understand what it is. *I explained something to a group member once and she was just like "huh?"
b) I don't have confidence that people will be willing to listen to me. *Or do their work. Sometimes I can't get them to listen to me. *Or they just don't understand what I'm saying. *Half the time I end up doing more than my fair share of work due to others not doing their part.


a) Sorry, but you do need sometimes to get down a spoon feed them. Its painful and you find it degrading to them... but they like it, they really do... its easy then for them... following the rules.. thinking not required. *;D

b) Eventually, you'll do the INTJ classic and let a project basically crash and burn even when you could have stepped in far earlier. However, at the very end step in and take complete control and ridicule the imbeciles with sarcasm (which they won't get) and actually deliver the project.

Sorry, but I'm enjoying being sarcastic and am "over egging" this a bit..... *:P

[Quincunx]

Leadership is something that INTJs will do reluctantly in my opinion, because it really means that the "I" has to temporarily be "E". Hence we're simulating an "ENTJ". And ENTJs' have no problems leading anything. So, the less "I" an INTJ is, the easier it is for them to lead.

Well, not necessarily. Leadership doesn't necessarily have to be extroverted: Gandhi was an introvert, for instance. INTJs may perhaps be trusted with leadership because they are analytical and strategic, and as a result might use this position either to acheive their own ends or enjoy the sense of power that comes of it.

[BadgerDad]

I am good at, and enjoy, issue leadership.
Leading ordinary people is a very different matter.....

[mind_wander]

Yeah, I know. I think in my past experience, people do get annoyed with me because my approach is effective, but different. Its due to people are not used to different approaches.

[Chainsaw Dundee]

I do seem to lead naturally in certain settings, like work and creative stuff. That is, if I even decide to work with other people. Though I think I might be borderline E(the test said 33% I).

[MichaelH]

I disagree Tarrick.. people ARE stupid. Or rather.. they are more often than not unmotivated enough to use the intelligence they were blessed with. Additionally, the vast majority of people are externally motivated. Meaning that they require some sort of prize or reward to seek the completion of a task.

It greatly confuses me that someone will perform better after attending a company golf tournament than they would normally.
<snip>
I'd rather just deal with the processes involved, and let someone else handle the PR. Non-personal power doesn't interest me.

Overall, I have to agree. I'm not comfortable in leadership roles.

I deeply want everyone to like me, and leaders have to make decisions even when people won't like the results. However, the other problem is I simply don't understand people. They just don't make sense! Who wants to direct a bunch of people that don't make sense?

I think that's why I like computer programming. Even when it's annoying, there's a logic to it.

[stuntgp2000]

Hi,

When I was defining leadership, I come to this conclusion : Usually I don't mind if We follow some rules, standards or guidelines as long as they serve Our interests and do all adhere to them. But, usually this is not the case; most of who are in position of leadership try to manipulate or control people or worse choose want I need. I can't allow anyone to do this. I am a Free person and I can't live without Autonomy.

Since I believe in autonomy and freedom, I will not allow myself to manipulate others or chose for them under the flag of "leadership". I believe that everyone should make his own decision and assume the responsibility for his choices. However, most people are overwhelmed with choice and can't be self-Dependant. The exception her are INTJs and ENTJs. INTJs know what they really want and don't bother to manage the outside world, and ENTJs have less feelings, are short-term planers, and don't seem to really understand the needs of people. We are left with no one able to handle leadership except INTJs who have the real capacity but they seem to be in need to hear something, like a trigger to unleash they power.

Well, for me I found that trigger. All I want to hear in order to bring from my world/Universe into this world and to unleash my potential is this expression. "You are the only one who can do this, every attempt we have made has failed, you are the only one who we can trust."

Well, in order for this expression to have it effect, I have to feel it, by you being honest.

I can apply it myself on me. Like I program myself.

Another thing that used to irritate me is that in most jobs, leadership means you are the only one in the eyes of others to assume the ultimate obligation and responsibility. For me, I can't be held responsibilities because of your incompetence, your irresponsibility.

I don't know about other INTJs here but please tell me you are like me.

Regards,

Med

[Figmentum]

I LOVE leadership. I usually stay back until people finally find out that they can't lead worth crap. Then I come in. I just really savor the feeling of having people under my control, not so much as rank, but socially, emotionally, and psychologically. It's great.

[BlackHawk]

In every INTJ profile I've read, there is something along the lines of "INTJs do not naturally assume leadership, preferring instead to wait until the others in the group demonstrate their inability."
I felt this described me very accurately, but i've heard no mention of the "assume leadership from idiots" part of the INTJ personality.
Do you do this? Are you effective at it?

[Paul V]

Sigh. I often have to do it, because I seem to be surrounded by people who are strangers to logic and are therefore unable to make the most efficient decision. I don't like it, but someone has to do it.

[Solaris]

In every INTJ profile I've read, there is something along the lines of "INTJs do not naturally assume leadership, preferring instead to wait until the others in the group demonstrate their inability."
I felt this described me very accurately, but i've heard no mention of the "assume leadership from idiots" part of the INTJ personality.
Do you do this? Are you effective at it?

The two are the same, no?

I've seen it in action, it's kinda funny to me.

[Nomad]

What usually happens to me is that I go along, minding my own business, and then everything turns to shit, and everyone turns to me and says " What do we do now?" I actually do most of my supervisors job, simply because he cant and everyone comes to me.Very annoying.
-Nomad

[INTJgal]

In every INTJ profile I've read, there is something along the lines of "INTJs do not naturally assume leadership, preferring instead to wait until the others in the group demonstrate their inability."
I felt this described me very accurately, but i've heard no mention of the "assume leadership from idiots" part of the INTJ personality.
Do you do this? Are you effective at it?

We once were singing christmas carols, the leaders were leading reasonably well. Then, a request from the audience came. Oh, wait: the leaders weren't prepared for it.

People were whiney, they wanted their specific christmas carol! So, the music leaders said that they were sorry and would love to fulfill their request, but were simply unable to.

The INTJ male next to me sighed, walked up to the piano, and in modulating keys played the best damn version of the carol I had ever heard. He's a great friend. In a serious attempt to be modest and value others' more than himself (because he's aware of his natural tendency to be selfish and self-loving) he kept quiet until there was a total demonstrated inability.

(And, btw, the guy had never played the song before. He was just listening to the song he knew in his head, and came up with the relationships and went and sat at the piano. he's that good. It made me feel better to learn how much he practices, though.)

[Sevs]

I usually find that I don't take the leader role as there is usually someone around who wants to be leader. I always think I'd be quite good at it but i rather sit back and observe and offer my advice to the leader when I think I know what should be done next. However I think in time I might actually become a leader as usually when I was appointed group / team leader I usually did a good job.

[mind_wander]

I usually find that I don't take the leader role as there is usually someone around who wants to be leader. I always think I'd be quite good at it but i rather sit back and observe and offer my advice to the leader when I think I know what should be done next. However I think in time I might actually become a leader as usually when I was appointed group / team leader I usually did a good job.

Yeah, I know what you mean; you are more the Strategist. Anyone wants my input, here you go. If you don't want it, well hey, then we know why, it actually failed.

[Alexfree]

I do not seek leadership, but it has been bestowed upon me a couple of times. Mainly because I was actually the only one in that environment with a bit of competency about the subject (namely, computers).

It was a good and rewarding experience, but I think that the fact that people "under" me would do literally whatever I said was the major factor. Since I don't have the guarantee that that would happen again, I tend to avoid leadership positions. Unless I know the team I am going to work with or when people are so inept that I HAVE to step in.

People who know me well say that I am a natural leader because I am not threatening and usually get people to do what I want through diplomacy and logic. All good and well if people do cooperate, but I wouldn't cope well with non-cooperative potlight-searching a-holes though. That would be unpleasant. For both. Better to wait until they reveal themselves for what they are, with dividends.

I am a INTJ, no bull allowed. :D

[amei]

I'll take up a position if
a) I'm comfortable with the subject
b) I know the subject better than others
c) If I feel like we're being inefficient and I have a better plan.

I think what makes INTJs great leaders are the following:
a) INTJs know what they know and what they don't know. So they can use their strengths when dividing up work.
b) INTJs are efficient and can't stand inefficiency.
c) Organized
d) good planners
e) Know a lot about their respective subjects

my weaknesses:
a) I can't seem to get people to see my plan easily sometimes. Or understand what it is. I explained something to a group member once and she was just like "huh?"
b) I don't have confidence that people will be willing to listen to me. Or do their work. Sometimes I can't get them to listen to me. Or they just don't understand what I'm saying. Half the time I end up doing more than my fair share of work due to others not doing their part.

I really liked this analysis. It fits me perfectly. I had a management position at an organization that ran conferences. I got the job after doing the lower job that I supervised for a year. I knew I could do the leadership position because a) I knew the position I was supervising; b) I knew how to do the job well; and c) I had worked for ineffeciant people and knew how to improve the job.
But being only a year out of college and hiring people definitely made me feel afraid that they would not respect me and made me feel that I had to prove to them my capabilities to show my worth as a leader.
Overall though, I loved the leadership job and hope that having such management experience at a young stage in my career will one day help me.

[supreme_nogi]

I like to lead when I know a lot about the topic, or when I'm the best person for the job...hence i like working in small groups and leading and i think i'm pretty good at it, however if there is a better person for the role, i'll just let them lead...it's quiet strange as i almost view myself of being unworthy of being the leader if a much more extraverted person is around

[supreme_nogi]

ps i really liked the analysis by thengat

[cielo market]

I prefer to work alone. But I agree with gnat's points :)

[banzai]

In terms of leadership, I'm true to the traditional INTJ form... I don't prefer to prance around until the poor leadership done by others becomes a problem to me.

Perfect example... I had some silly job training, during which we played a game that involved a table of people putting together shapes to make a square, except that nobody had the pieces necessary, nobody could talk or make signals, and you had to somehow trade pieces until everyone could make a square.

The end result? I got everyone to figure out that if I handed them all of my pieces, I wanted their pieces. I ended up just completing a square, giving it to someone, completing their square, etc.

INTJ leaders aren't so much 'leaders' as much taking things into their own hands (ala "if you want it done right, do it yourself") and getting assistance as needed from anyone else who's along for the ride.

[mind_wander]

Another reason why INTJ's aren't much leader, but great guider's. I think this is more what I am doing, as much to leading. When people come up to me and see me, as a leader; to me I am just guiding them through it. Why INTJ's aren't much leaders because we all know and been in teams or groups; where they all had failed,but not truely INTJ's, mostly due to other people who take up the leadership role. As we all see, so many times groups has failed, ok I can try to learned from all those examples and recreated my own way of guiding people and becoming, as one with the group [with individualistic ideals].

But to keep the group going, if lucky to get an ENTJ [or other comparible personality type] within the group would make it go much faster. Because someone is there to backed you up, instead of you just wasting time to defend yourself; so inefficient.

[Duncan Cade]

I don't like leading.
I don't like being led.
That's why I usually end up in a high rank, but not the highest. I always want to have things 'bigger' then me above me, but I hate being a simple associate.

When the situation requires me to lead, because no one else is willing or because the current leader is crappy, I get annoyed. I need to get to work and get things organised.
But after a while, when the results start growing and my leadership is an obvious positive factor for this, I start enjoying it and i'll be proud of the system i created. After that, when things are organised, I could appoint a new leader and step back. Works great.

[mind_wander]

We once were singing christmas carols, the leaders were leading reasonably well. Then, a request from the audience came. Oh, wait: the leaders weren't prepared for it.

People were whiney, they wanted their specific christmas carol! So, the music leaders said that they were sorry and would love to fulfill their request, but were simply unable to.

The INTJ male next to me sighed, walked up to the piano, and in modulating keys played the best damn version of the carol I had ever heard. He's a great friend. In a serious attempt to be modest and value others' more than himself (because he's aware of his natural tendency to be selfish and self-loving) he kept quiet until there was a total demonstrated inability.

(And, btw, the guy had never played the song before. He was just listening to the song he knew in his head, and came up with the relationships and went and sat at the piano. he's that good. It made me feel better to learn how much he practices, though.)

Whoa, thats so interesting, I'm planning to do this online, singing Christmas Carlos with some of my peeps. Well right after final exams, already got like 3 different duet songs to do. Yeh, INTJ's are great with creatively to make it sound good in its own unique way; alot of practice and I never sing before.

mind_wander added, 8 Minutes and 37 Seconds later...

I don't like leading.
I don't like being led.
That's why I usually end up in a high rank, but not the highest. I always want to have things 'bigger' then me above me, but I hate being a simple associate.

When the situation requires me to lead, because no one else is willing or because the current leader is crappy, I get annoyed. I need to get to work and get things organised.
But after a while, when the results start growing and my leadership is an obvious positive factor for this, I start enjoying it and i'll be proud of the system i created. After that, when things are organised, I could appoint a new leader and step back. Works great.

My advice to this is, if you create your own group. Shared the INTJness ego from the very beginning, before even doing the work. Everyone's depressing ego, all of a sudden received a BIG JOT. Its so true, if you know the cause of the depressed ego, then give it a few Jots both from left and right. INTJ's got too much of it anyways, might as well share the wealth. You can always get it back, the point to this; people love strong ego's. However, you are the ego original creator, so that means you can easily shut them all off at any given time. Its a fail safe mechanism, lol; who wants to be controlled by your own ego creations. Thats insane, then after your done with the team people would be like, wow; its not that hard afterall. INTJ responds: We all know who to thank for that.

The thing is in any group, ego is very low anticapated. No one know how to control their own ego's in a collective unit. Its like me ego, me ego, me ego. In an INTJ's mind, its like WTF could we all share my ego. Because, I just want to get things done, ASAP. My ego is center of peace, not the individualistic self ego mode. This really make you stand out, as becoming the leader.

My professor said, "Success leads to Sucess, if you used it in a strategic way." I've always done it this way in most of my groups, if I got the choice, before my professor ever made this lecture. THis kinda surprised me.

[Kaiser]

I find it surprising that some of you actually dislike being in leadership positions, I think it is the only practical way to prove others of out superior reasoning and organizational skills. But I understand that not having complete autonomy to implement your ideas or having to convince everyone that your ideas are good can be really annoying.

[mind_wander]

I find it surprising that some of you actually dislike being in leadership positions, I think it is the only practical way to prove others of out superior reasoning and organizational skills. But I understand that not having complete autonomy to implement your ideas or having to convince everyone that your ideas are good can be really annoying.

yeah, i know what u mean by that. Its a really positive feeling, but remember you must manifest the opened-minded of ideas shooting left and right. If some people got great ideas or somewhat good idea, heck if it works, then great. I glad to hear comments and used them, as much as I can into the group projects. Now, most other groups is like the sheep. I don't like this, ok we all agreed, all adjurend. In INTJ group- hey, here is my list of ideas and others throw it into a big melting pot and exchanging or transforming any problems into quick solutions. Now thats called team work.

[Kaiser]

yeah, i know what u mean by that. Its a really positive feeling, but remember you must manifest the opened-minded of ideas shooting left and right. If some people got great ideas or somewhat good idea, heck if it works, then great. I glad to hear comments and used them, as much as I can into the group projects. Now, most other groups is like the sheep. I don't like this, ok we all agreed, all adjurend. In INTJ group- hey, here is my list of ideas and others throw it into a big melting pot and exchanging or transforming any problems into quick solutions. Now thats called team work.

I agree with you. As a programmer I favor the eXtreme Programming type of team dynamics where nobody is boss and everybody contributes ideas to the project. But normally I find myself surrounded by people whose lack of insight makes them question my views and I have to put up with all sort of stupid arguments, the rebuttal of which cause me frustration and consumes my small reserves of patience.

[BlackHawk]

One very effective way I have found to accomplish a goal is to convince the "supreme commander" to give you freedom to handpick the members of your team (this is assuming you are high enough up to request special privileges, but not the top). It is then easy to choose a small but highly talented group of like-minded individuals from the personnel available to create your Uber-team. I think this works because you know all the team mebers are competent, and you know they all will work with you with respect and understanding (you picked the best, remember?!?!?).
Teams assembled this way are like the Praetorian guards. Except in every field (if you selected like-minded individuals, but with varying, yet overlapping interests). You will find that leadership becomes easy and your team will consistently be the best.
This may sound complex and unrealistic, but it works for me (several times, in fact)!

[mind_wander]

I agree with you. As a programmer I favor the eXtreme Programming type of team dynamics where nobody is boss and everybody contributes ideas to the project. But normally I find myself surrounded by people whose lack of insight makes them question my views and I have to put up with all sort of stupid arguments, the rebuttal of which cause me frustration and consumes my small reserves of patience.

If you are able to answer to the loads of frustrating questions, in most cases, then you become the leader of the team. A leader has no clue about anything is going to end up with a desaster.

mind_wander added, 0 Minutes and 45 Seconds later...

One very effective way I have found to accomplish a goal is to convince the "supreme commander" to give you freedom to handpick the members of your team (this is assuming you are high enough up to request special privileges, but not the top). It is then easy to choose a small but highly talented group of like-minded individuals from the personnel available to create your Uber-team. I think this works because you know all the team mebers are competent, and you know they all will work with you with respect and understanding (you picked the best, remember?!?!?).
Teams assembled this way are like the Praetorian guards. Except in every field (if you selected like-minded individuals, but with varying, yet overlapping interests). You will find that leadership becomes easy and your team will consistently be the best.
This may sound complex and unrealistic, but it works for me (several times, in fact)!
Its complex and unrealistic, but it also works for me.

[Kaiser]

One very effective way I have found to accomplish a goal is to convince the "supreme commander" to give you freedom to handpick the members of your team (this is assuming you are high enough up to request special privileges, but not the top). It is then easy to choose a small but highly talented group of like-minded individuals from the personnel available to create your Uber-team. I think this works because you know all the team mebers are competent, and you know they all will work with you with respect and understanding (you picked the best, remember?!?!?).
Teams assembled this way are like the Praetorian guards. Except in every field (if you selected like-minded individuals, but with varying, yet overlapping interests). You will find that leadership becomes easy and your team will consistently be the best.
This may sound complex and unrealistic, but it works for me (several times, in fact)!

I've never been in a position such as the one you describe. But it definitely makes sense.

[mrswentworth]

And when you are the leader, all the finished products represent you.

Second that.

But when I feel someone is a better one, I'll just leave it to them.

[GOD]

Eventually if you're a "very able" INTJ you'll gravitate to leadership simply because the frustration of seeing absolute incompetence will aggravate you into taking control.

However, I think there's a trait that leads us to eventual leadership and that’s one of control over our destiny. That’s contingency in its highest form.

One important point though... and I'm learning it "gradually" is simply to tolerate sub standard performance by members of the "team" Why? If your standards are too high relative to what you can reasonably expect as a function of their salary then you'll just end up as a leader of 1.. And that will be yourself. Thoughts won't translate into reality without having a functional group.

[mind_wander]

Eventually if you're a "very able" INTJ you'll gravitate to leadership simply because the frustration of seeing absolute incompetence will aggravate you into taking control.

However, I think there's a trait that leads us to eventual leadership and that’s one of control over our destiny. That’s contingency in its highest form.



The personality trait is called: ENTJ.

[Warren_Wong]

Do you like to be in leadership positions? Do you aim to be a leader, or only take the position when nobody else is willing/competent? How many of you are in or have filled leadership roles?

I definiately do. In fact, I'm developing my interpersonal skills specifically for that reason. 1000 people can do more than 1 no matter how good that one is.

[Maitri1970]

Do you like to be in leadership positions? Do you aim to be a leader, or only take the position when nobody else is willing/competent? How many of you are in or have filled leadership roles?
I frequently find myself in leadership positions because others are irresponsible. Being too responsible is sometimes a curse. I enjoy leadership positions when I think the people around me aren't slacking off. Unfortunately, I have to lay down the law a lot with my current team. They're much younger and think the training department is all fun and games. I abhor this type of thinking so my job is pretty tough right now.

[yondyr]

I will not lead (I don't want the responsibility for others and I'd want to lead where they may not want to go)
I will not follow (they're going no place I wanna be)
I have a second hand book business - my own boss, yayy

[BadMojo]

Do you like to be in leadership positions? Do you aim to be a leader, or only take the position when nobody else is willing/competent? How many of you are in or have filled leadership roles?
I love being in leadership positions. Often, when working in groups, I normally try to take that role unconsciously, mostly because I have a very good overview of the entire project, and not just in some specific details.
I don't aim to be the leader, but if no one takes charge, I will.

[Antares]

I usually don't jump up and take charge, but I end up shaping most of the project anyway. Everytime there's a group project, I always have a vision of how I want it to be. The 'real' leader can't decide anything... So I just put my 'suggestions' up for consideration. All said, I don't like to wave my arms like some arrogant idiot and say: HEYY. Listen to me! I'm the leader! (and ironically those people tend to be indecisive) I prefer to sit back and take the position when the group really needs someone to decide. I usually prefer to work by myself if possible. Sometimes, you need to guide your members every step of their way. I tell them: I want a poster done. They go: Should I glue this here, here or here? It's like they've never done a poster before (of course, usually, we put the title in a centered or readable spot, put the major information in a more spacious spot and minor ones near their category). It's not that rigid how I want it to be as long as it's neat, readable, informative and appropiate.

[Danisty]

Most of the time I feel that I have no choice but to lead. I don't like being in that position, but it's better than following someone who has no business being a leader and that's most people from what I've seen.

[gzeus]

Like Maitri said. I do not want leadership per se, but others keep avoiding it and that forces me to take initiative.

[Andrey]

All I want to hear in order to bring from my world/Universe into this world and to unleash my potential is this expression. "You are the only one who can do this, every attempt we have made has failed, you are the only one who we can trust."


INTJs are natural leaders just like ENTJs are. The difference is that INTJs are more task oriented (visionary), while ENTJs are more people oriented (managerial).

My experience of INTJ coming to managerial position:

Being "I" I've lived in my inner world of ideas and dreams, looking for life purpose, absolute truth, and the "right" way... I've read and thought a lot. I've never been leader: neither in high school nor college. I felt completely UNaware of myself; I felt UNconfident; I felt UNcompetent.

It took me several years after college to eventually make my mind. I somewhat understood what I like, what I want, what I'm going to do. I've eventually broad knowledge base and deep value system. I achieved great results (and career enhancements) in my first jobs (I was often called by colleagues as not less than "brain of the company" :rolleyes:) I eventually got very confident. I understood things deeper than people around; I knew how to accomplish goals and in what consequence better than people around.

However I've never strived for power and had to work under people who were less competent but more power-oriented. I actually like power (power = independence, so valuable for INTJs!), but did not want to play in intrigues, opportunism, and asskissing.

At some point, I got to company where competence was very valued. I knew how to do things; I knew how to get from point A to point B; I just needed assistants. So, I was asked to become manager and was given people to manage. It was somewhat difficult at first, but it has never been the most important thing in my leadership. I strongly believe that leader at the first place is someone who can get from A to B and can help other people to get there as well. That's all. Coordinating meetings and hiring/firing people are just managerial tools and could be accomplished by many. Leadership as having clear vision, direction, and plan is rare and valuable gift in these days. It seems like many INTJs can naturally develop this talent at some age in whatever field they choose to work.

I even think that INTJs are generally more influential leaders than ENTJs are. Leaders we see on TV (field marshals: CEOs, Presidents, Senators) are mostly "E"-type people, while those who stand behind them (masterminds: ideologists, oligarchs, real owners and lobbyists) are "I"-type people who neither like nor want popularity. You do not see them often, but they are real ruling class.

Good luck in your ways! :thumbsup:

[ssfanatic]

Now to say all people are incompetent is being very stereotypical. I mean there are those few people who just don't want to speak up. Being an INTJ mastermind i feel supremely uncomfortable trying to "take" control, but if situations are dissolving quickly, then i really would feel obligated to step up. Then there are those who are truly shy and you must specifically ask them for input.
So i guess i would take a leadership role only if forced, but i feel more comfortable following.

[thod]

Wanting to take control is one thing, being able to is quite another.

You may see what needs to be done and how to do it but that is not enough. As an INTJ you are too intense and simply not likeable. People will select an incompetant but charismatic leader in preference, your natural job is second in command. Its your job to tell the leader what he should be doing. He has the ability to motivate others into action. If you try to lead they will sideline you and select their own leader. If you become insistant they will rebel and your boss will remove you or nothing will get done. INTJ may be great individual achievers but leadership is as more about getting the most out of your people than it is about correct planning. You can always hire expert planners if you are weak in that area.

[gallihand]

I'm actually becoming a supervisor at work because my last one was inept. At this point I'm just about ready to start taking full control of everything because of ineptitude of others. It's so hard to hold back and let others slow things down but I know less would be accomplished if I took control.

I would definitely agree most INTJs tend to be advisers when possible and only step up when no one else is willing or competent enough to. Somehow I always end up the leader in groups except with one friend. Maybe its because I'm the first one to say "Screw it if you guys can't decide we're doing X."

Something I learned to do was to mute some of my intensity and to not criticize. All in all I'd say what people want most is for the job to get done with the least effort required on their part. And I'd say INTJs should be good at doing that as the goal is to simply get the job done (as well as possible with the tools we have).

The times where INTJs tend to come full bloom into leaders is when a threat is immediately present. We are decisive, show more confidence (which most others would lack), and interpersonal relationships come secondary to the immediate threat so no one is really going to care if we just give a command.

[mitsuko]

If I was stuck in a leadership position I don't think I'd like it all that much. Leading is something I think I'm good at when I have to do it, but it's not something I overly enjoy. I'll do it if there isn't another leader (because well, you sometimes really need one) or because the current leader is being an incomp. If someone can step up and do an ok job, I'm usually happy with that. So long as they don't tread of my space :D

^What Guido said.

I'll lead if I have to, as long as I know I'm fully capable of getting the job done. If I feel like I can't accomplish what's needed, I'll do what I can to find someone who can better fill the position.

[Developer]

I am in a senior leadership position, and I generally enjoy it. If you want to be good at it, you need to master also the personal interaction part, and that can be straining for an INTJ, but it is also rewarding and broadens the experience.

I also did the "second in command" thing for some years, but honestly the leadership situation is more fun, because it gives you more opportunity to influence things.

[Capt57]

but honestly the leadership situation is more fun, because it gives you more opportunity to influence things.

Have you ever worked for someone who you deemed to be incompetent and how did you handle it?

What was the worst job you ever had?

What steps did you take to broaden your social skills? Any good books?

Sorry to hit you up with all these questions but I'm not interested in a 19 yr olds opinion on these matters ;) I'm 35 by the way and welcome to the forum :thumbsup:

[Yongkb21]

I actually quite enjoy leading. Not sure if any of you would consider what I'm about to tell you as leading.. but here goes anyway. Since I'm still pretty young :p no offense to you older folks reading this but I'm only 19 turning 20 still!

Anyways at one stage of my life I used to do most of the organizing of parties and drink-ups for my boys and girls back in high school. It was a headache to organize and set-up every single week but no one else would do it. Eventually one of my best mates decided to start giving his own input and how things should be done and who should go and the amount of cash we should all chip in (we were all underage alright, oh and not to mention my best mate is an ENTJ). After a while he ended up taking control of it all, everyone started to listen to him more and more. So I just sat back and relaxed a bit. After a month or two, things started going disarray again. This time I didn't step in because I found better things to do, than organizing all these social get togethers. Eventually everyone kind of stopped hanging out with each other on the weekends and separated into different groups.. And that's how it kinda went on until today ;)

I get great satisfaction from those days though, because when friends I haven't seen or heard from for ages ago come up and say to me "Those were great times, you should organize a get-together again like back in the those days".

I just can't help but too smile. :)

[Developer]

Have you ever worked for someone who you deemed to be incompetent and how did you handle it?

What was the worst job you ever had?

What steps did you take to broaden your social skills? Any good books?

Sorry to hit you up with all these questions but I'm not interested in a 19 yr olds opinion on these matters ;) I'm 35 by the way and welcome to the forum :thumbsup:

Thanks for the nice welcome !

I once did work for someone who was not so competent as I had wished for. It was absolutely terrible, and I tried to keep out of his way and do my thing. To give the guy credit, he realized my situation and let me in peace, as long as my performance was okay. I think the crucial issue is to realize that you are not responsible for changing this person, and that you need to stop to explain stuff to him/her. You often think that you just need to give him this little peace of insight, and everything will work out - but it's a pipe dream, it never happens. On the other hand, I have worked for several extremely comptetent people, and that has balanced it nicely over the years.

As for social skills, I have always worked for nonprofit projects and I have learned more there than in any management training on the world.

[errrzarrr]

I think leadership is important, even if you are not going to lead any proyect or whatever is important to lead you own life and, at least, you family. Is a good Skill.

Anyway, i think we INTJs are far better as "the voice behind the leader" or "the mind of the leader", "the big brilliant mind behind the project", thats more natural to us. I would like to improve those skills.

But I go more far, I even see a leader as a TOOL at our service. If we have a big great abstract idea then we need to transmit those ideas and feeling to people so they can believe on the project and do it. For that we need that leader that will tell the people how and why do that, he will make that mass of workers/whatever "connected" and happy with the project and themselves.

At the end everybody is happy. Our project is beautifully done and we didnt have to deal with "stupid" "ilogical" people that irritate us. The leader is happy because he could lead succesfully a group of persons and he was a important part of a great project. People is happy, because they were part of a big project and could complete their task sucesfully, thanks to the leader, and at the end of the month get their money home.

;) yikes I feel more masterminder now :P

[Jed3]

I don't mind being a leader.I enjoy the responsibility and I find it fullfilling and rewarding. I was even awarded a leadership and teamwork award at our school presentations, although i believe it was more for doing my own thing and not following everyone else.
I like the idea of being a leader if it's in something that i like doing or am interested in, like sport.
However I am happy to let a compontent leader takeover, as I'd rather not be in the spotlight.

[dobbin]

Almost invariably and always involuntarily I have I found myself in positions of leadership. I don't enjoy the prestige of these positions but I do enjoy the challenge, autonomy and ability to affect change in the positions, but I occasionally do find it diificult to be being the sole 'go to guy' within an organisation from a workload point of view.

Forming the strategic vision and tactical execution in the companies I've worked has been rewarding personally, but I still feel unfulfilled in terms of the broader development of the human race and therefore my life is ultimately unfulfilling.

[Learning]

Do you like to be in leadership positions? Do you aim to be a leader, or only take the position when nobody else is willing/competent? How many of you are in or have filled leadership roles?

When I was younger I actually sought it out at one point, but I think I had something to prove to myself. (Plus I think I was more "E" then.)

Now, I don't like the idea. I'll do it if it's necessary, but definitely not something I'm fired up about.

[ghmn]

I think I fit the basic INTJ profile on this.
I don't mind taking the leadership role when it's given. I'd rather be the one leaders come to for advice. But when I see incompetence, I usually can't hold back and end up asserting myself. Guess that's a pet peeve of mine, I can't stand incompetent leadership.

[AgentofGaming]

Yeah if I was going to be an incompetent leader, I'd rather not be a leader.

Also since I'm introverted, I tend to go for 2nd in command. Leaders have to face the crowd, which is not something I'd want to do.

Sometimes the leader ends up as my puppet if they're incompetent and I'm behind the scenes. If they're incompetence is a major issue I might usurp them ;D

[mettlemunky]

I like leading. Leading retards is easier than following them.

[youngblooded]

I personally dislike leadership but I do take up the leader position when there really is no choice. I had one incident in school whereby we were organising a camp and I was placed in charge. I met with so much resistence and it ended up with me doing everything myself. Its hard to find people to trust. I strongly believe so

[Volition]

I think what INTJ's (or at least me) value most is autonomy. Leadership when nobody else will do it; autonomy whenever at all possible. So it's not that the INTJ likes leading, it's that (s)he doesn't like being led, and will often step up to lead rather than having to be subservient to someone who is not really his/her better.

DB

Absolutely right.

Although, when I have taken the helm, I did get a little buzz out of it. I can get into character and like not having to worry about a dope overruling my ideas because of ego issues. It does create a pressure to make sure the final product is good, or it's my head on a platter. Still, if you appear to be in control, it mobilises the team surpisingly well. For quite a shy person, this rapid effect is compounded by my teammates suprise. Whatever works!

[Ace1337]

I don't dream of becoming a leader but I think I am pretty good at leadership positions (I like to lead a small group of people), and I agree with what Dopperbock said.

[Learning]

People in leadership have to deal even more with their INTJ-ness. Which I guess can be okay if you just feel like it makes you most productive.

[Zilal]

I've evolved a little bit on this in the past year... I used to not be so crazy about leadership, but I still did it all the time because, well. You know. I'd always give it a few seconds when we'd have to split into groups for whatever, and it'd take me that long to see that nobody else was going to step up, and so it'd be me. I just want to see the damn project get done. That drive is very strong.

But the past few months I've found myself stepping up even when I don't have to... like, not just when we're forced to do group projects, but taking initiative, organizing stuff on my own, etc. I guess... I had a number of comments in the past few months from people who thought I was suited for leadership, and it changed my views. Now I'm not so sure I'm a great leader but I'm starting to feel like it's a skill I could do some good with in the world, and I have a responsibility to use it.

[pavman]

I am a reluctant leader. I lead when the job needs to be done. And sometimes I don't do it then either.

I think this is where other typology helps. If we look at a classic typing, say Choleric/melancholic/sanguine/phelgmatic, it explains why sometimes I don't want to lead (1/3 melancholic, 2/3 choleric). Plus I hate getting burned when leading on something too. And I don't trust people enough to delegate enough, but I've learned you have to do this or you will fail sometimes.

My biggest problem w/ leadership is having to coordinate and deal with other personalities. The right folks will just go along with what you say, the wrong folks will just need to be slapped around...

Plus...the older I get, the less the payoff seems to be worth it (a pat on the back isn't worth as much as a bonus or raise these days). Don't get me started, but there's some piss poor leaders running some companies around here.

[Dream Weaver]

If I was stuck in a leadership position I don't think I'd like it all that much. Leading is something I think I'm good at when I have to do it, but it's not something I overly enjoy. I'll do it if there isn't another leader (because well, you sometimes really need one) or because the current leader is being an incomp. If someone can step up and do an ok job, I'm usually happy with that. So long as they don't tread of my space :D

'Nuff Said for me. I don't mind leading when it's necessary, but most of the time I'm stuck responding to incompetent half-wits who want to slow me down when I do.

[youngblooded]

I think the reason why we are natural leaders is because we alway have this idea of what we want. In my experience in leading, I'm constantly catching wishing people would just take a little time to listen and think over my ideas but people just don't have that kind of patience or motivation to do so.

[iMiki]

I used to like taking leadership roles like being class president. Currently, I only take leadership when I think it's necessary to do it. I only take the positiong when nobody else is willing to.

[Victor Tango]

I've been in a lot of leadership roles over the years, but it's never something I jump up and volunteer to do. If I'm going to take the role, I'm going to do it to the best of my ability, which means a large commitment of my time and resources. And since my time and resources are usually pretty well utilized, it means I need to give up something else for the duration.

[Colette]

Do you like to be in leadership positions? Do you aim to be a leader, or only take the position when nobody else is willing/competent? How many of you are in or have filled leadership roles?

I don't really enjoy, or seek, such positions. I am in a senior role in my organization at the moment, and as such, I'm expected to share some of the 'load' with my boss, in terms of schmoozing key clients (or 'building networks', as some may prefer to call it). I'm also expected to help set and maintain the strategic direction for our team, in terms of what we do, and how our role fits within the overall framework, goals, and objectives, of the organization at large.

The role is quite rewarding - it's a combination of technical work (or 'doing my knitting', as the current cliche goes), strategy, systems planning, and key client management. However that said, I wouldn't enjoy the workload, or level of responsibility, associated with being completely in charge of our team.

[lordrrr]

I think leadership is more of an ENTJ thing. Actually, INTJ's are the ones who give ENTJ's the ideas, methods, plans, theories and all of those things and ENTJ's use them because they are more people person types. Hence why Donald Rumsfeld is an INTJ.

[lenne02]

I don't like to be a leader. But make sure that my leader is going the direction I want. Only if my leader is unable lead(than I don't call them morons) I step up and take the lead.

[MNRon]

I was always the "emergent leader" in scenarios in training, military or civilian, where a group of people were given a task, but no leader assigned. I nearly always assumed leadership after a couple of the eager beavers had totally screwed the operation up. I have always been a "cool head when all others are losing theirs" sort, which helped a great deal in coaching, and during my stint as a hospital chaplain (most people thought I wasn't "religious" enough, but marvelled at how I could calm, comfort, and soothe people, and give bad news (you've got a cyst, your sister died) in such a non-bad way.

[blue tie]

I don't like leadership, but I'm such a busy-body... I never want to be THAT GUY at the helm, but I want certain things a certain way. My ideal scenario would be to have someone else be the leader and me have override power whenever I want. But I could instantly turn that off and have zero responsibilities...

Also, sometimes the word leadership gets mixed up with management. I'm pretty bad at areas of both.

[Iago]

I would fit into the reluctant leader scenario. I am currently a leader within a large retail environment, where I have seen the big picture before other folk, and by pushing hard have ended up leading.

I'm not entirely comfortable with it, but as I do it longer the more it seems to fit OK.

Though I do find I need more and more time out to keep on top.

I think INTJ are leaders but need good managers around them to make sure plans are turned into reality.

[colmdubh]

Tarrick has it right. "Leadership is something that INTJs will do reluctantly in my opinion...'ENTJs' have no problems leading anything. So, the less "I" an INTJ is, the easier it is for them to lead."

Personally I believe I am a good leader but have trouble with the motivation part. I teach students which is different from managing a company but still if the students/workers are apathetic their low performance reflects on your job...of course you can fire workers. Being more 'I' than 'E' I usually lead only if I see that no one is competent enough to do a decent job or if I am put in a position where I have to.

[Deni1265]

I often tell people, when they ask me to join a group, that they should watch me carefully because I have a tendency to take over. I enjoy leadership.

[HappyMondays]

I used to seek out leadership opportunities, but it gets old. I've headed a couple small, non-profit groups and it gets very tiring. Most people who join those groups for free time just want to be appreciated and have their egos stroked. Meanwhile, I'm trying to get things moving and increasing the mission so we can attract more funds and members. It takes a lot of pride-sucking, tight-lipped work.

I like heading up projects, but can't stand pushing and dragging people through them until they're finished.

I'm also a sick type that, as soon as I finish my work with one group, I find myself in with another group. They stare at each other and the walls and eventually, it seems to come to me to get it moving.

[sam988]

I don't particularly like leading but i will if i need or feel compelled to because the current leader is incompetent; makes me wanna punch him but instead i just steal his leadership position.

[Vojnik]

If someone is doing a good job leading i stay back and watch, if they need help i lend them a hand and hope that someone would do the same for me.

[SmileyMan]

I have discovered that I enjoy leading, as long as people do what I tell them to do and no person more qualified than I is present. Seeing your plan become a success is awesome.

[gillyweet]

i generally don't like leading because it's a pain in the butt to get people to see your pov, and so much effort is spent trying to tell them things in a way that will make people happy so that they'll just do what you say.

i signed up to be an assistant director for a school production because i wanted to learn how to direct. not because i wanted to lead or anything, i wanted to LEARN. but the stage manager was a useless procrastinator who never got anything done, so i ended up doing her work in order to get mine done. that completely stressed me out cause i was doing a double work load and doing things which didn't concern me. then when the stage manager finally woke up from her deep sleep, she started complaining that i was doing her work for her and i was being unfair because she didn't know what to do. i promptly told her that she should have gone and found out what she was in for before volunteering for the job and be grateful for covering her ass. well, needless to say, she wasn't very appreciative of what i did for her and it caused a lot of friction. that's my latest experience with with leadership.

i think a lot of the problems happen when working in a group where a leader is elected or volunteers himself/herself and not appointed by higher authority. because when that happens, it's usually a popularity vote and not necessarily based on the persons capabilities, there might be a person in the group who is not as popular but more capable. if a person volunteers themselves, they might just be power hungry or want to feel important.

i kept on getting a lot of comments about how to become a better leader. but it mostly had to do with changing who i was to make other people happy. a lot of misunderstanding also happened because i didn't say much and tended to keep a lot of information and thoughts to myself. which made people kind of wary about what was going on in my mind. i don't think i'm fit to be a leader, personality wise but, capability wise, i think most INTJs have the skills to lead EFFICIENTLY. most people don't realise that INTJs think things through before making a decision and most people don't appreciate efficiency and productivity over making people happy.

well, that's my two cents worth.

[observer]

I hate leading, I don't want to be slowed down by having to think about what others are supposed to do. My mouth is already too slow to translate what I am thinking.

In general, standing back gives me time to figure out how the job gets done fastest, which will be suggested to the leader if I think I can explain it.

Only if the leadership is catastrophic will I consider taking it, but only after being given enough time to think out a plan.

[Timdotz]

I'm a typical INTJ, I usually just sit in the background when in a group and just observe how things are supposed to be done, and just laugh a bit to myself at odd things, but if the current leader is ineffective and cannot do things as well as they could be, I assume the leader role and amaze myself at what I can, although I absolutely hate people who don't know how to do things properly, refuse to hand over the role and shun me down like I can't do any better.:angry:

[suzyk]

Sometimes. I try not to take control, ever, but I give the group leader sufficient ideas because I usually feel too lazy to guide a horde of stupid kids around the ideas for the project. If it gets to the point where even the original leader has given up, I take charge. Even though I hate to.

[Cistercian]

I only step in when the usual conditions of incompetence are obvious.I am comfortable with it, however I would rather be a dictator.This is based on observing how poorly planned and executed most things are.The rabble grow tiresome....if only because of the willing blindness evinced by so many of them.Considering the nature of this board I suspect others here would agree.

[True Rune]

Maybe I would, but I wouldn't enjoy people whining about things that don't matter. I don't enjoy the spotlight, but I could probably make the decisions and do it, I just need a figurehead. ;)

[selimut]

Nope. it drains me when i need to give direction to people. especially when i need to repeat simple instructions.

[Kaethus]

I only step up to leadership when:

1) No one else volunteers.
2) The person who volunteers is incapable of efficiency.

I normally don't like it because I have delegation problems. I have found that if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.

This is me all the way. But I also don't like leading because one person can't possibly remember all the possibilities inherent in a topic. You need other thinking people so that you can cover all the bases. I'm more comfortable guiding conversations so that people stay on topic and get the job done - I don't like my time wasted.

But, I rarely think that anyone should lead me, so I consistantly dislike my jobs because I always have a boss. My real dream is to go into business for myself. But I don't know if I'd find anyone I'd trust to work for me. I think if I found my employees slacking, my head would pop off.

[Fej]

I enjoy leadership If I am in "total" control of the situation. If I am confident about whatever it is that we're trying to achieve. And when the rest contribute in a helpful manner.

[darkkodiak]

I for one really hate to be in a leadership position BUT I'm just so dam good at it lol(sorry if that sounded conceited). I don't strive to take on leadership roles if those leading are doing a good job. If they are not, that's where I feel like I gotta take leadership until someone who can actually lead come into light. I've had a few leadership position from clubs and sports in school to supervisory positions in jobs.

[True Rune]

When I think about it, I've never had many chances to lead. But when I do, (Speaking from a MMORPG leader position..) I'm pretty robotic and goal-obsessed. I wonder how I'd do when it comes about..

[Big Grizzle]

I don't enjoy it, but can do it well.

[capricornintj]

I take a leader role when I have no choice (i.e. everyone else is too incompetent to do it). Otherwise, I prefer to be second in command and act as advisor and strategist for someone that I respect or trust. To work for someone, I must have one or the other: respect or trust. Both would be better. Although it would seem that these traits should go hand in hand, I have found that there are individuals that I respect, but don't trust, and some that I trust, but don't respect.

[acrossthefourthwall]

Whether I enjoy leading depends on the situation, but I do like giving people instructions and tasks (it appeals to my overdeveloped fondness for categorisation and efficiency). My problem is that when I'm in charge of a project I feel tempted to take over the entire thing.

[cdbrow1]

I am a leader and I enjoy it - mostly. I really don't like all the "feelings crap" that I have to deal with. Other folks are so damn touchy sometimes. I like my workers and they all do good work - and I tell them so on a regular basis. I support them and back them up - but THEY still find things to complaint about. One of my workers took a much better job with an agency closer to their home - good for her - and now another worker is mad at me because I didn't ask the first one to stay. Why would I ask her that? It's a better job and it is closer to home a completely rational decision on her part - good bye and good luck. Butnow I get 3 months of the evil eye because of SOMEBODY ELSE's decision.

I have also been accused of being a micro manager (my one worker bee), but I think that is crazy. My whole style is to let my project leaders run their projects UNTIL they get stuck then I come in and help them out (vintage INTJ). But I don't tell them what to do I talk to them about the problems and we work together to solve them - one thing I do do is keep the socializing to a minimum. If folks what to chat then they can got to the break room or to lunch, but the purely social stuff doesn't belong in the middle of my staff meetings. I really don't care if your kid just dropped out of grad school to grow pot - but if you want to talk to somebody at work about it don't do it when we need to balance the budget.


Ok I will just end my rant mode now......

Oh yeah what is the point of those office parties for birthdays and stuff? Why to I have to pay for them, even when the party is for me...GRRRR?





cdbrow1 added to this post, 1 minutes and 49 seconds later...

Oh yeah one more thing......I DON'T PAY YOU TO TALK ON YOUR CELL PHONE.....get to work...

Ok I really need to stop ranting......

[DrEast]

Octavian (Caesar Augustus) apparently did. He shows up on a few lists of famous INTJs.

[Uberfuhrer]

Well, I don't mind bossing others around, but I just don't like the consequences of getting it thrown back to me.

Though if my own well-being is at stake in the workplace, I normally do not hesitate to boss others around...if it's the company's well-being that's at stake, I couldn't care less as most of the jobs I had were because of the money, not because I cared about the corporate cause.

But I don't mind bossing others around in theory, but I just hate giving the logical explanations that others may ask for -- I just say "Never mind 'Why!' Just do what I fucking tell you!"

[EsoteriEccentri]

Hate leadership. But I'm not an INTJ, so I guess my reply is invalid here. ;_;

It irks me when people don't do things the way I want them done, but I don't try to take leadership... I just remind myself that usually I'm allowed to work alone. ^^

I'm not very good at being leader. I either try to get someone else to be leader or have no idea what to do and find it impossible to make decisions, thus expecting others to make them for me.

[Chimerical]

Honestly, I hate being the leader. But I'm often stuck in positions where things aren't running smoothly and I'm the only one who knows how to fix things and I hate it when people take credit for my accomplishments as if they did it.

So at Cedar Point when my manager ran out of ideas and didn't know what to do I jumped in and assumed position as a co-manager of the stand and fixed things up. But he gave nearly all the credit to me when asked about it. The only reason I want the credit is because it gives me the opportunity to move up to higher and better things based on what I've earned.

When I played soccer, every once in a while when the coach was stumped on my indoor team I would sub myself in for a defender, tell that defender to watch and learn by how I position myself on the field, give a few instructions to my other team mates, Play for a little bit, and sub out once everything started working smoothly. After a while the coach told me to just tell people that he said to listen to my instructions because I was claiming they were his instructions at first. Personally I'd rather just go out and play with a bunch of people who already knew what they were doing than instruct and lead.

At T.G.I.Fridays I ended up being a trainer for every position and they created a sub-management position for me where I bussed tables and managed. Because I explained to the manager that the busser had the most control over the flow of the place because of how much free time they had when everything was clean. They had the ability to help out in any area that was lacking. So after a while they told me to just organize people on the floor while bussing so that things ran better. Tried it for a week, noticed sales going up and made it a regular position for me. I didn't like it that much because a lot of the new people thought I was being bossy and trying to push them around and would cop attitudes with me from time to time because it looked like I was just a busser.

My cousin wants me to help organize a business he's running because of how I play chess, video games, sports and other things with him. He noticed that I'm good at organizing things and now wants me to help him organize his business. I don't want to, but I know he'll pay me a decent amount to do it.

[Monte314]

INTJ's make great leaders IF they are willing and able to accommodate the "right brain" nature of most other people. Being a good leader means putting others first... and I mean ALL others.

Being a good leader means that sometimes, for the greater good of all, you have to let the village idiot have the last word. If you can do that as an INTJ, you can probably be a successful leader.

[Merton 12]

I'm an INTJ, First-born Scorpio, and I have had no other choice in life but to lead. For a very long time, I've been in an organization which is mostly composed of ISTJ's and ESTP's, and it's my opinion that the N/S "gap" is almost impossible to bridge. No matter how often you are right, no matter how often you fix things that are broken, if you used your intuition, experience and intellect, and not a standard set of "remedies", which OBTW, were what caused the broken-ness in the first place, those maddening S's, since they dont acknowledge anything they cant verify with the 5 physical senses, can't/won't believe that you can simply "know" what to do.

I recently had a career coach tell me that if you are a person with a reputation for "fixing things", which a lot of INTJ's do, when your finished fixing, both the people who broke what you fixed, and the people who benefit from your fix, will want you gone. And I was able to validate that information for her.

I like to lead, but I can't stand incompetence (surprised?), and the details of "supervision" drive me mad. I also like to be the power behind the throne, as long as the throne isn't occupied by and idiot. Unfortunately, there are so many more idiots than there are thrones, the math hasn't worked well for me.

An INTJ's natural self-confidence and intelligence attract other people, most of whom are looking for guidance, leadership, vision, competence, and someone to look up to. INTJ's fill this need for others, because our traits are NOT found in the rest of the population. We're only 1% of that population. That's the great conundrum of being an INTJ; everyone wants and needs these traits, and they hate us for having them. But, God knows, they don't hesitate to call us when they've screwed themselves into the ceiling, and cant back themselves out. We're the ones with the big screwdriver.

[rahdam]

I don't enjoy leading actively.
As someone else said, I much prefer to be the power behind the throne.
I lead because I have to, often because no one else is fit enough to lead.

[Nameless]

I like leading people and would do it more, but I need people to actually pay attention to me and have complete control.

[jesse]

Prior to beginning my business studies, it was unthinkable to view myself as a leader. Interestingly enough I did not know I was an INTJ until all of us first year business students had to participate in an MBTI personality type test. Once I saw my results, this commenced a long period of self-discovery and a very significant epiphany.

I find it absurdly amusin that I do not enjoy leadership per se, yet I often find myself at the helm because others are unwilling or view themselves as demigods with a golden touch. Over the years it has become much easier to accept the vox populi of praise, but the thing is I enjoy getting things on track and finalizing them.

There are times members of a work group are either enthralled by my attention to detail, high demands and work ethic while others couldn't give a fuck because it involves work and effort by them. Some probably are confused by the duality, I lead despotically but I do often ask for ideas and suggestions (at least until I realize that they don't have ideas, or they are impossible to enact due to time and/or ability constraints).

[Vertigo]

With work I always somehow seem to get put into some position of authority, I think it's because I just give it my all and I always solve problems or make things better. I don't aim to be in charge, it just gets placed on me and to be honest I rather enjoy not doing physical labour and I'm very good and planning far into the future, forecasting, scheduling, heck I can even go to meetings and get my point accross.

I do have to say that being one of the bosses gives me the unique position to argue with other bosses that are not doing their part and trying to pass the buck, they can't pull the wool over my eyes, try as they might when push comes to shove if I know I'm right then I never lose an argument at work. (I do not like to argue though ehhe, and moreso not in a social setting)

[LancDash]

I was the leader of an organization for two years. I loved it, but I was a silent leader. There was one to many E's in the group, and not the good ones.

I led by mediating and talking behind closed doors and dealing with situations privately. Since so many of the E's thought I was never doing anything, they liked to take control of the organization, and ended up taking a lot of power from me. However, if they would have paid attention, they would have noticed that I could have someone who was on the war path, smiling and shaking my hand in five minutes.

In the end I had to wipe my hands clean of the leadership roles, because those E's ran my organization into the ground. I was able to hold out long enough to keep my time and those before me reputation intact. I don't care what happens now, and because of it will less likely jump into a leadership position.

[beverly penn]

I assume leader roles whenever it is required. I don't trust others' competence, which is unfortunate, but I prefer not to take the risk.

[candyfloss]

Yes, I'm in a leadership position, and I'd hate it if I wasn't. I think it is because, as an INTJ, I want to be able to have ideas (intuition) and put them into practice (thinking). You can't see your plans work unless you have enough clout in the organisation to push things through.

[Southpaw]

i lead only when i feel that i am able to do a more effective job than the person who is leading. i feel that the majority of people who lead are just power hungry, and do not deserve to be leaders, this is when i step in and take control of the situation.

i hate working for people because most of the time i feel that i am a much more effective leader/manager than they are.

[flex22v]

I love being the leader. I have been a manager before and much prefer it to being a subordinate. My I is my lowest % of my INTJ so maybe that is why I don't mind it. I think I tend to pull out some E in dealing with professional/school situations. My I reigns supreme in social/personal settings.

[Functianalyst]

I would think that all ”Chart the Course” (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) types would have natural leadership styles, however as described in most descriptions of INFJ, INTJ, ISTJ and ISTP types, they are and can be leaders, but choose not to unless they find the existing leader does not fair well. This again stems from the Chart the Course interaction style because: People of this style focus on knowing what to do and keeping themselves, the group, or the project on track. They prefer to enter a situation having an idea of what is to happen. They identify a process to accomplish a goal and have a somewhat contained tension as they work to create and monitor a plan. The aim is not the plan itself, but to use it as a guide to move things along toward the goal. Their informed and deliberate decisions are based on analyzing, outlining, conceptualizing or foreseeing what needs to be done.I am not INTJ but it’s not that I don’t like to lead, instead I don’t like to be persistently responsible for supervising and managing others. This may have more to do with no desire to have my freedom hindered.

[Mercury]

I do not like leading others. I do not like to be bossed and I don't like being a boss. I am often pushed into leadership positions. I prefer to be in situations where other people knew how to work efficiently as a team and to boss their own work flow.

I am dreading having to hire people. I hope I can find good employees who won't hassle me with needing to be bossed.

[foroneonly]

I am indifferent to leadership positions. I'm not one to volunteer for them though.

[augustus]

Being the eldest son, I guess I always had to shoulder more responsibility.

Do I enjoy leadership? I enjoy what can be achieved by a group of people working together. I am more motivated by the end result.

I want to be the leader when I like the direction things are going and based on my own qualifications. When I feel I am not the best for the job, I will readily recommend someone better.

I do not feel that I am inadequate when it comes to leadership.

[GoodToBeMe]

This is why I don't think I'm an INTJ Mastermind. In reading the supposed basic traits of INTJs, natural leader seemed to be consistently listed. That is not me.

I actually used to be an HR manager. I felt like a square peg in a round hole, to say the least.

I am very curious to read the rest of the responses in this thread.
Yes, INTJs are natural leaders but they do not actively seek leadership unless and until there is no one else who is qualified to do the job. Others tend to pick up on the leadership traits of the INTJ and volunteer or push them into the position. Though the INTJ will resist, once put in the position will absolutely shine. I always found it odd when I was younger that poeple were always volunteering me for leadership roles. It has happened everywhere I have been. This usually comes from truly forward thinking people who are not intimidated by the INTJ's natural leadership abilities. So the thing thing to remember is we do not "seek" the position.

I never knew or felt I could be a leader until I was pushed into it in Marine Corps boot camp. I basically sat back and tried not to stand out. The DI put me into the position of the guide (platoon leader). I thought "what is this guy thinking? what does he see?" I was quiet and extremely shy all of my life. Well, I went on to be the series honorman (top grad out of all three platoons). It's been happening ever since. Sometimes we just need the right set of circumstances to bring it out.

[Max]

It is very hard for me to put myself at the mercy of another. I want to do what I want for reasons that I think are right....but I don't necessarily want to force everybody else to do the same thing. I would much rather just keep to myself and avoid being in any kind of group but if it came down to it and I had to choose, I would probably lead...unless I really didn't give a flying rat's about what was going on, then I would just sit back and wait for it to be over.

[Freedom Geek]

No but we really hate being under the leadership of someone we disagree with so often trying to become a leader is the lesser evil.

[smashy]

Do you like to be in leadership positions? Do you aim to be a leader, or only take the position when nobody else is willing/competent? How many of you are in or have filled leadership roles?

I was before in a leadership role and hated it. Manage people is not my thing and I can't believe INTJ's are natural leaders since they hate to interact too much with people. ENTJ's maybe, but INTJ's? Hard to believe.

I prefer to be in a management position but where it means manage my work, not people. Be in a position where I have autonomy and I'm not micromanaged, and have responsibility for my work only, not for other people's work.

[harrycallahan71]

I'm indifferent to being a leader.

[probity]

I'll gladly lead if no one else is willing to step up or qualified. I'm a natural leader and it's a very satisfying role for me. It's not something I'll seek out however if there's someone more capable, I'm not hungry for the position and I don't generally like interacting with people if it can be avoided. I will just as happily play a role supportive of whatever leader is ahead of me (provided I believe they're capable).

[Freak]

I neither enjoy leading nor following. Don't like to 'rise up' to the challenges even if the incumbent leadership is failing...as always perhaps the cost-benefit analyses don't justify/tally up for this. I am indifferent to families'/ people's / organisations' successes or failures. I don't hate watch things going towards success or failure ... because I've experienced that wise/competent don't need my assistance and fools don't value it. I tend to think about my personal success/failure only...am I not already leading myself :)

[callmemigs]

Just like everybody said, I don't have the initiative to lead BUT if I can see the situation gets too much, I will step up and show them what I can do. I just couldn't stand people who are so into being leaders but don't know how to decide or do some simple strategy to avoid predictable problems when a project is undertaken, and don't know how to deal with their emotional problems or people who just couldn't take aside the emotions at work. People who are just willing (and sometimes force other people around them) to lead just for ego's sake don't deserve to be such.

But I don't really feel comfortable to be a leader especially if I don't really know my subordinates/groupmates. I prefer being the advisor or the "man behind the scenes" because I don't have to expose myself to social situations and at the same time, I can plan and do some strategy which is what I really love doing. I'm not really a group person but being a leader increases my self-esteem at times. it also helps me improve my "extroversion" skills, necessary to become the MBTI type I've always wanted to be: xNTJ.

[llBradll]

I love to lead. I find a lot more gets done at work and I feel like a much more valued and respected worker by being the leader. I care a lot more about what I'm doing with the extra involvement. The way I look at it, I would rather be the one putting the puzzle together than just be a piece.

What I hate is when somebody extremely incapable tries to lead over me. It tends to create situations where I've found a solution while everybody ignores them and nothing comes from them being leader, and much more important my skills go to waste. When somebody who is capable is the leader, I feel no need to take charge. I just let them do what they do.

[The Irish Lands]

I like leadership situations (I am closer to ENTPs, however, sometimes even to ENTJs, so that may be why).

It can be seen the best way when there is some work in groups at school.
Others percieve me as the most intelligen in the small group, and so they prefer me to lead and work (now I do not know whether it is good or bad, possibly both :laugh:).

So, I often take leadership in that group.

Last time, I did really good job in it on Physics, when we had to try something and write down the scores...

... I distributed the work between all 3 members of our small group. They were doing the experiment and I wrote down the scores and told them what comes next...

.. and we made it well and could go home as the first of all groups, so I saved the free time of the group... :)


But there are times, when I am closer to INTP or INTJ personality and when I can not lead... and prefere not to do so :scared:



I definately want to learn more about leadership, because that is what I want to do in my career and it also is what it takes to be a uccessful businessman.

[McMarcus]

It's all about the project or the task.

I am frequently happy for others to take charge of projects or situation that I either have no interest in or simply do not feel that I could ad much value to.

However there are many projects that are very much my brainchild and nobody is better suited to taking charge and keeping order than me. Add to that there are many situations that I simply have a greater understanding of than many others assigned to lead, so I find myself leading from the wings through superior knowledge in a way. A combination of understanding the bigger picture and in-depth technical knowledge of every tiny component that acts as a link within the project chain.

I guess this falls under confidence through knowledge. If I didn’t know what I was getting into or to a certain degree what to expect along the way then I would be reluctant to lead.

[Hasway]

I lead if nobody else seems to be. It's fun bossing people around :). I also lead if I'm really into something, and all the other people don't seem to get it. It's funny, though. My newspaper teacher (who's an idiot) couldn't decide if my friend or I should be editor in cheif of the newspaper. I really wanted to be editor in cheif because I hated how crappy the newspaper was. My friend and I worked it out, with her being editer in cheif for show, and me being like the vice who actually does all of the work. I was sick the next day, so I came back the next day and asked my newspaper teacher if I could see the rest of the staff(he showed it the day I was gone). He read down the list and said,"oh, you're the copyeditor." I was really pissed. The teacher took half of the situation. We told him that my friend would be editor in cheif, and that we hadn't come up with a title for my job. When I asked my friend about it she said,"oh, that's the job you wanted, right? I mean, you're good at editing and all we need to fix up the paper is a better editor." I was ready to shoot her. Then I just gave up. Now all I do is make rude comments about my teacher in my head, and know that they don't truly need my help. I'm also waiting for my friend to show how crappy of a leader she is, because her part was for the show only. Once she breaks, I'll be right up there.

[qwerty123]

I usually step in at the 11th hour and save something, or assume needed non-glory positions that can't seem to get filled. At the end of the term, people always say.. wow you did so much.. at that point, I disagree, only seeing what I failed to accomplish, or where I'd go if there were more time.


The assumption of the position usually sounds something like this:

"Everyone Chill the F!?# out, I got this. Now leave me alone."

[Arminius]

Sort of. I actually prefer to act as sort of an adviser to a leader. This gives me much of the rank, benefits and influence of a leader without as much of the trouble that accompanies leadership. It doesn't really bother me not to be at the very top. I take great pleasure in making things run smoothly and in ensuring progress towards a goal.

[Matty37]

Agreed, I'm very effective supporting an effective leader. I have no patience for poor leadership and I find myself taking over leadership in these types of situations. I enjoy stepping into the leadership role and asserting myself when I've identified a problem with the current approach.

[Maayan]

I like to be the spokesperson. When I was really little, I wanted to become a diplomat because I understood the job to mean projecting an image that is representative of my fellow countrymen's attitudes, re-framed in a way that makes them easier for someone who thinks differently to digest.

These days, I step up to the leader's position when I don't see other people doing a good job of it (most of the time at school). A lot of the time, I'm playing a character based on my past positive interactions with leaders; I know that playing this character is useful in persuading people to understand their role in a group, work together and get things done. However, I have trouble operating autonomously and it's not fun for me to fool people into believing otherwise (archetypal ENTJs get a kick out of this, I hear).

EDIT: I like the ENTJ vs. INTJ external-oriented vs. internal-oriented confidence distinction. Good point.

[Thinker]

I was a leader in a previous role.....a CEO.

Even before I became the CEO people looked to me for direction.
When we merged with another business, and the previous CEO left, I was asked to put myself forward as the CEO by most of the senior management team/shareholders.

This was the most fulfilling time in my life. The role enabled me to be creative, it provided complex challenges, and it was another "system" to improve. A business is nothing more than a grouping of related systems....that can be improved. From product development right through to product sales and product delivery...they are all just complex systems that can be improved. I saw the role sort of like a big scientific experiment. You would put forward an hypothesis (on how to create an improvement) ...and then take steps to prove or disprove the hypothesis. The more you were right...the better the business did.

Many people above have talked about having problems dealing with other E, S and F personality types in a leadership role. I just see this as a challenge......how to get everyone working towards the same goals. It is more of an intellectual challenge. I always read and consulted widely to come up with innovative solutions.

Formal meetings with up to 15 or 20 people were OK…you just need to learn how to chair meetings successfully. The thing that wore my batteries down, was when I was in uncontrolled situations with large groups of people and a two way dialogue. Sometimes you just can’t give a satisfactory “public” answer, or you don’t wish to publicly humiliate people…..or you were just not prepared for that question. I found that aspect difficult and wearing. A more “charismatic” or extroverted person might naturally work on the 2 way dialogue….but that was difficult for me.

I must also say that I am happy to delegate. I learned very early on that through delegation you get leverage for your own personal effort, and leverage is the single most important aspect of business.

Leadership is all about respect……mutual respect. It also helps if you have a talented team of supporters…..which I did.

I also think that INTJ's are not good at being lead......they are too independent.

[Nomadofthehills]

I enjoy being led by a competent leader, who has earned my respect. Otherwise, if I feel I could lead better, I am going all out. E is just a tool of leadership. I have read a lot about emotional intelligence because I realize it is an important skill to have.

[universalis]

I was a leader in a previous role.....a CEO.

Even before I became the CEO people looked to me for direction.
When we merged with another business, and the previous CEO left, I was asked to put myself forward as the CEO by most of the senior management team/shareholders.

This was the most fulfilling time in my life. The role enabled me to be creative, it provided complex challenges, and it was another "system" to improve. A business is nothing more than a grouping of related systems....that can be improved. From product development right through to product sales and product delivery...they are all just complex systems that can be improved. I saw the role sort of like a big scientific experiment. You would put forward an hypothesis (on how to create an improvement) ...and then take steps to prove or disprove the hypothesis. The more you were right...the better the business did.

Many people above have talked about having problems dealing with other E, S and F personality types in a leadership role. I just see this as a challenge......how to get everyone working towards the same goals. It is more of an intellectual challenge. I always read and consulted widely to come up with innovative solutions.

Formal meetings with up to 15 or 20 people were OK…you just need to learn how to chair meetings successfully. The thing that wore my batteries down, was when I was in uncontrolled situations with large groups of people and a two way dialogue. Sometimes you just can’t give a satisfactory “public” answer, or you don’t wish to publicly humiliate people…..or you were just not prepared for that question. I found that aspect difficult and wearing. A more “charismatic” or extroverted person might naturally work on the 2 way dialogue….but that was difficult for me.

I must also say that I am happy to delegate. I learned very early on that through delegation you get leverage for your own personal effort, and leverage is the single most important aspect of business.

Leadership is all about respect……mutual respect. It also helps if you have a talented team of supporters…..which I did.

I also think that INTJ's are not good at being lead......they are too independent.

My thoughts entirely. I too am the CEO of a company. Perfect place for an INTJ to optimise and lay out strategy. Also as you say forces you to develop skills to interact with S, F etc types. It can be challenging but its rewarding. Anyway my immediate lieutenants are mostly NT's and ST's so basically that take the strategy and vision and do the dirty work of making it happen. We don't employ a lot of F's, (couple in marketing and design departments, and maybe sales).

MBTI is very useful for constructing a good management team.

[cereza]

I`d prefer the most capable person assume the role as leader, and if I happen to be most capable, I play the leadership role well. I`m actually good with dealing with people and handling the objectives.