College is slowly driving me to insanity

[Hwaet]

Hi. I'm new here. But enough chit-chat ;D. As the subject says, I can't stand college. It is oriented towards getting a degree instead of getting knowledge. Everyone I have sought advice of has betrayed such vastly different presuppositions as to what college is even for that I have decided to seek out the advice of INTJs. Frankly, I didn't know there was anyone like me until I stumbled upon the MBTI. I haven't found many, if any, of my own kind so far in life, and need the advice of some who have been through this already.


When I say slowly in the title, I mean everything about college is slow! The hand-holding, the suppression of original thought, the boredom of listening to lectures that precisely echo what I was assigned to read, the humanities-type professors who can't understand my questions and arguments because they are based off what I know of "hard" science...

I entered college a year ago with plans to go on to grad school and become a computer scientist and do research on, um, everything, but with special interest in pseudo-random number generation.

Anyway, how is it that INTJs are supposed to survive school when they have so much conflict with authority and the omnipresent line, "That's just how it's done"?

I keep failing math classes because I am so dependent on knowing the "why" behind things. If math is precise, I want it presented precisely, building proof upon proof. They only go over important theorems, and skim the rest. I see between the lines and get caught up researching the stuff hidden behind chapter one while the class goes on to chapter two.

I struggle with science classes, because the teachers want everything done by one method when I know there are more efficient ones. The professors admit as much, but God forbid that we do calculations the way they would be done outside of a school (i.e. computer algebra systems. I want to learn about physics, not get bogged down having a semester-long review of applied math)

In computer science classes, I get by because I have been reading theoretical books on the subject and keep asking questions I shouldn't even know enough to be able to ask yet. It surprises the professors, and occasionally, they don't know the answer.

In humanities classes, if I ask the professor why some assertion he made is true, he tries to obfuscate, but fails miserably, stalling for time and repeating what he said at first.

For those of you who made it through college and/or grad school, how did you cope? When I was young, I thought I was the only one who wanted to know the reasons behind everything and learn more information in less time, but now I know there are others of my personality type out there. Any pointers? I feel like going back home and going back to self-education--I was home-schooled off and on through high school, and it gave me a large edge in the subjects that interest me, but it made me question why schools are they way they are even more than ever.

Any help/advice/criticism/mockery would be much appreciated.

[Evalis]

When I read the title, immediately I thought to myself: "Is someone venting?! Well damnit, if someone is going to vent, I had better get story, or I"m not reading it >.<" Well i got a story, so I read it ^^

Anyhoo... the description you are providing sounds like highschool more so than it does college. Indeed my college professors were intelligent and open to questions/critisms of the theories they presented. Showing up to class was NOT a requirement. I got by.. because there wasn't anything oppressive about it. Now granted, that was not the case with ONE teacher there.. she was a complete and total boob. She was more interested in getting us to learn 'important' HR lingo, than teaching us anything about actually how we would go about performing any of the presented activities.

EI: I know that "Succession Planning" means to set up a promotion plan for current or soon-to-be existing employees into the best fitting/highest ranking job for them. ... And I really have no clue on how to go about doing this. At least no clue as was instructed through school.

How did I get by with this teacher? I complained. In fact.. the whole class complained to the dean, largely due to my coersion to do so. My grade with her was still the worst.. and the instruction I recieved the shittiest.. but I passed.. and I tried to ignore everything I learned, instead focusing on other educational works.

If ALL of your teachers are horribly oppressive.. and the whole school is like this... then I have no such advice, other than to go to another more educational-friendly college/university.

[HackerX]

How do I cope with going to university.... hmmm

For the most part I just don't go. I skip most lectures, haven't been to a practical/tutorial class in years and spend most of my time teaching myself. I was "better" in the begining, but these days I go out of my way to avoid going to class.

My university offers a work experience program, where you are able to apply to different businesses to work for a year (which also counts as a subject towards your degree) .

My plan was to get a good enough mark to get into the program (Just over a pass mark, so easy), get the experience and use that. The rest of the degree is just an expensive piece of paper (Bachelor of IT - Major in Software Engineering)

I am currently typing this email at work (having worked here for 2 and a bit years now, after accepting a full time position(paying graduate wages without graduating)). My lecture for the last class I have left in my degree is tonight, instead I'll probably just grab some food in the city, do some shopping and spend the rest of the time studying the lecture slides in the library.

Most of the stuff I've learnt at uni isn't about the technical details behind SE, but more about learning to be easily adaptable to the different situations that come up over time.

[Jon]

I think you'll find that if you look up your college's (or your department's) message statement it will say something about making you a more rounded individual. It's not just about the degree, unless you're going to a technical school. It's their sincere desire to give you broad spectrum knowledge, instead of only giving you super specific instruction in your chosen field.

That doesn't seem like the root of the problem, though. Honestly, it sounds like you're just underestimating all of your professors. Clearly, you know you're smart, but it seems like you're just brushing all of your humanities professors off because you think they're dumb. Just because they haven't pursued careers in traditional sciences doesn't mean they can't teach you something important, and it certainly doesn't mean they can't understand what you're trying to ask. They might simply choose to ignore your question (if you ask it in front of the entire class) because it's out of the scope of the class and they don't want to get the class of however many other intelligent people off topic. Most first year classes are slower, anyway, to ease students into the new environment. It does get a lot different as it progresses.

Most of us have probably grown up going to public schools, so we've figured out or own ways of working around a system that's not specifically designed for us and learning on our own time, and heck, even learning a little in class when we realize that we're being taught by people with plenty of experience and knowledge in their own right. Schools are set up the way they are. You can either work within their system while getting out as much as you put into your own studies or just not go to them, really. You don't actually need a degree to study pseudo-random number generation and to work in computer science. It might be more difficult to get a job, but you can do it if you're willing to work for it. In short, if you want their degree, you really have to play their game. If you genuinely think you're capable of succeeding with self-study, maybe that's what will work best for you.

That said, maybe you're just not at the right school? In California, our public college system is broken down into two series of schools: one is more theory based, and the other is more about the practical application of knowledge. Transferring to a school that better suits your wants could do wonders for your college experience.

Still, though, I really think you could get a lot of out of your college experience where you are if you adopt a better attitude toward your professors, stop rationalizing why you're doing so poorly and fix it.

---

Of course, I don't always see eye to eye with my professors regarding their teaching strategies and lesson plans, but that makes me work that much harder to do well in the class on my own terms and I usually end up learning something completely strange and left field that can be applied to something I'm doing in my major.

My way of tackling classes is going to them, paying attention to the lectures, taking notes, and doing the occasional assignment that might help me for the test. If I'm interested in the specific subject, I'll pay extra attention, if not, I won't. The time I invest in class paying attention means that I generally don't have to spend time on the class on my own time. As a result, I have more time to research what really interests me and to work on improving my artistic skills. At this point, I'm really just going through the motions since a degree isn't really necessary for what I want to do professionally, but I find that the lifestyle changes I undergo every 11 week quarter positively affect my learning process and how I see my ideas. tl;dr: change rocks for seeing new perspectives.

[Hwaet]

Thanks for the replies. It's interesting to see your perspectives. Skipping the lectures would go a loooong way towards making it more bearable (they all post lecture notes/slides on the network and parrot the textbook anyway), but it is entirely disallowed at this school. Professors take attendance, announce test dates in class, and in two classes so far participation has been a (small) part of the grade.

I forgot to mention, but someone else suggested "challenging" courses-- basically taking a test that proves you already know the content and gives you credit for the class. That isn't offered at this school either. Is that normally available at other schools these days? My parents did that, but I don't know what the typical mainstream college is like, as I am in a small private one.

Now that I am thinking about it, while they did give me 6 credits for advanced placement tests I took in high school, I couldn't use those credits as fulfillment for prerequisites for upper-level classes. If I could, I would be able to take around a dozen different literature and English courses, but since they just count it as "English elective credit" I have to take two introductory literature courses before I am allowed to take the courses with interesting content.

Maybe choice of school is part of the issue here... That's an angle I haven't considered at too much length, because I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the educational system was homogeneous in its academic structure.

[Jezebel]

Maybe choice of school is part of the issue here... That's an angle I haven't considered at too much length, because I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the educational system was homogeneous in its academic structure.

Are you in the United States? If you are, I can confirm that your experience may be completely different depending on what school you go to. I'll agree with most of the others in that it sounds like more of a problem with your specific school than with college in general. When I was researching colleges, I saw huge variances in both the policies and general atmosphere.

If you don't think you're getting what you want out of it, I'd highly recommend taking some time out to research other schools.

[Guido]

I got a good laugh when I saw this topic. I've read profiles where INTJs are supposed to be high achievers, and I don't think that's necessarily true. If you go to a bad school, it can just be unbearable. Here's how my education went:

Teachers didn't like me much in high school, especially math class :X I would just sit in the back of the class bored to tears and often sleeping, yet still pulling off the highest marks in the class. A lot of teachers try to convince people that 'if you work hard, you will get good marks' but I was a complete contradiction to this, which infuriated them as well as the students struggling to do well. If they're going to condemn someone for being smart, that's their problem I guess hahaha. I would often lift up my hand in the middle of class which would be followed by 'Sir, you're wrong.' or 'Sir, there's an easier way to do that.' Always polite, but always a dick :D I kind of had to do this though, otherwise the teachers would make fun of me for not paying attention and make me look like the idiot, which I couldn't stand. It's important for people to intellectually fear you! That's probably some kind of defense mechanism... but oh well.

After high school I went to CEGEP for two years, which is kind of a cross between high school and university. I didn't have to attend class so I skipped about half of them, which was great. I didn't do work here either... as I would hand in less than half of my assignments. I was still bored to tears with class, so I skipped them and played foosball. Despite taking the big hits on the marks for assignments, getting 90s on the tests evened out my marks. My overall marks were good, but not great. I just made sure they were good enough to get into the university I wanted.

Got into McGill, and I have mixed feelings about it. On the plus side, the stuff I was learning was a lot more interesting... at least in the classes I liked. Some of those classes were boring theory crap. Oh man, I can't stand abstract math or proofs. On the negative side, there was a steep increase in work load. Naturally, when I wasn't doing assignments, I did rather poorly. Cramming for the finals didn't work so well at this level. It was very hit or miss, sometimes resulting in an A or an F. There was this AI class I took, that was very theoretical and I did bad on the tests and assignments. However, there was this end year project which was to design AI for this obscure board game. Everyone was like, 'wtf?' when I got first in the class. All these muppets wasting their time on the theory, but none of them could apply it which I find rather hilarious. I graduated with a joint major in physics & comp sci and vowed never to go back to school.

My personal motto with university: "You go to university to get a piece of paper that says you're an idiot, so that some idiot will hire you, to do a job any idiot could do." It really helps career wise to have that piece of paper, but other than that it's pretty worthless. It did point me in the right direction in terms of showing me what I could learn, but all this was done by myself... which I think I could have done without going at all.

I program games for cell phones right now and will eventually move to programming games for PCs and consoles. I won't ever be going back to school, or at least that's my plan now. I don't think I'll have to, because I think companies are more interested in what you can do with a computer rather than your degree. During my job interview, they didn't even ask me about my GPA (which was 2.4 so thank god they didn't.) They just talked to me about random things, like that AI project I owned everyone on. They also gave me a Rubik’s cube to solve because I put on my resume that I could do it in about a minute. This was how I was hired :o

So yeah... long post short, I found university pretty annoying to get through. Good luck :o

[polenka]

The school you go to definitely has an impact on how bearable it is...I was fortunate enough to be in a school more tolerant (but not necessarily welcoming) of my off-beat thinking.

I hated memorizing and re-hashing/learning anything I couldn't use (but then again, I usually found a way to use a lot of what I learn).

I practiced the art of skipping class in undergrad (I was voted by some of my dorm-mates as spending the least amount of time on school work).

I took a really cool english/philosophy integrative first year program that was cool wherein I became known as the "silent killer" who slept often in class, didn't speak much but when I did, the content was usually bitterly sharp.

Grad school is much more fun because in most classes critical thought is encouraged. I'm still bored some times, but enjoy breaking down parts of the profs' lectures, which they tolerate--and sometimes people bring up new views on things I haven't considered, which is enlightening. The assignments are more fun because they're actually geared towards useful topic/you can direct your own topic.

Unfortunately the current movement is towards merely obtaining a goal instead of knowledge for knowledge's sake--the anomic view of criminology would argue this is due to the infiltration of economic interests on educational institutions--thus causing the focus to be on a degree which = more money rather than the inherent value of education--and a focus on achieving a goal without emphasizing the means through with the goal is achieved, all products of the good old fashioned American Dream. This can account for increases in cheating behaviors and an overall devaluation of a degree...interesting, really...

Consider switching schools, stick out undergrad (even if it means **temporarily** setting aside some questions), get into a good grad school in a field in which you are interested. Also, look into the reputation of the prof before you take his/her class to see if you can find out whether they'll work with you on your level.

Often times you can take a limited number of upper level "directed" or "independent" study courses, which would allow you to direct yourself with the guidance of a prof you respect.

[Psyborg]

All I can say is that's the way it was in undergrad for me but for my mentor (who happened to be the only Republican in the Political Science department). First day of Political Philosophy, he got everyone's attention and then started the class with this:

"If you hand in a paper that shows me nothing but what I put on the board here, you will fail. If you hand in a paper that shows me your opinion and nothing more, you might pass. And if you hand in a paper that shows me your opinion AND your proof, I can assure you I will give you an A."

I'm the only one in the class that consistently got the A. Scary part is, most of that class were from snotty families and were gearing up to become lawyers and then politicians.

Then I went on to graduate school, and I must say it's pretty much the same thing. Write this way. Talk that way. Take the classes we tell you to and your career will take off. *sigh* So I spent 3 years jumping through hoops until I ran out of money.

Bottom Line: Find someone, some professor there, that agrees with your view of the world and hang on tight for a rough ride. I had to practically fight for my undergraduate degree and escaped with a 2.49 average only because of how many fights I got into.

Good luck.

[mind_wander]

Hwaet,

Same here, I don't like memorizing, math, things can easily bore you. My way of rerouting through the school system on how things work. It can be very stressful, no.
Here is a shortened version: See the big picture.
What do you want to achive/goals? [INTJ are the big picture thinkers]
What are the other options of possibilities can get you there?
How many people can you list, who does understand your personality?[Those who do, don't lose them seriously- it helps builds mental character in ya, so you don't go insane]

As for details:
When your in social situation, are you skilled enough to work around it or it suffers?[Tip: Always find good topics to talk about, not too much intellectual[but general topics-I know this is a INTJ dislikes to do, give this a try]. General topics, show help others understand concepts easier, as compared to abstract concepts.

I hope this helps, if you an INTJ should know what I am talking about. I'm not good with describing in words.

[MichaelH]

Hi Hwaet,

It does sound like a change of schools is in order. You should (at least moderately) enjoy your time at college. It can be a lot of work, but ultimately you must believe you'll be better off for it. You might not like every class you take, but you should like SOME of them.

Every degree has several classes that are, frankly, crap. You just have to take them to get through. I made it my personal goal to learn what I could out of each class. That made economics a lot more fun. :)

If you plan on working at someone else's company, a degree says some important things. The big one is persistence. Everyone who has a degree has had to do useless and uninteresting work. There's some docility involved, which irks us INTJs. However, look at this from the perspective of an employer:

"I'm hiring a person to do work for me. That work may not always be interesting, but I'll still need it done. I have two candidates in front of me. Both are bright and seem like a good fit. One finished college, which shows they'll push to reach a goal, and are willing to tackle the boring tasks as well as the fun ones. The other dropped out partway through. Will he/she be more dedicated when I pay them?"

On the other hand, lots of people have gone on to be wildly successful without getting college degrees. Bill Gates never finished Harvard. The CEO of a local alarm monitoring company (that is kicking butt from a technical perspective) dropped quickly out of a CS program to actually do the things they claimed to teach. These people had the fortitude/luck/funding to make their own way. If you're starting your own business, you don't need a degree. You just need the ability to do something people will pay money for.

If nothing else, I'd try to take some classes that interest you. If you're miserable even in those, it's time for a change. Don't rack up debt doing something that's wrong for you.

[GOD]

Yip, University is the biggest test to a lot of INTJ's I believe...

Basically, there's all of a sudden a huge rush of infomation... and a lot of it has NOTHING to do with passing the course in question.

Its a huge test to basically put blinkers on and just concentrate on the topic at hand to PASS the course.

The worst thing is that a pretty curious INTJ can start learning about a topic and then just start diverging away from what s/he is suppossed to be learning as more information simply promotes the brain to ask more questions which need to be closed. Another student might be drinking every night and not attending lectures... However, both students can fail the course because the exams are what matters.

I've seen absolutely brain dead people nail courses because they only learn whats put in front of them. Also, lack of emotions seems to be a very big bonus at University as I've seen many drop out to various factors surrounding these.

Some of smartest and most able people drop out of university...

However, you need to play the odds, and conform... you need to learn everything that the "system" currently knows and then apply your divergent thinking at that point... thats what makes someone in todays world step above the ISTJs.

[rwyatt365]

Ah, college!

A professor once told me that college was not about learning, it was about learning how to learn. Once I understood that I got along better. I began to see the college experience as a series of challenges;

First, a challenge of discovery – to discover where to find the information that I needed to satisfy my desire to know what is behind the things being said. In effect, to find the secret "founts of knowledge" – whether that be a reference document, or some other authoritative source. And discovering the "tricks" to shortcut the discovery process so I could find what I needed to know without wasting a lot of time.

Then, a challenge of endurance – to endure the tedium of lectures and "Because I said so" dogma. The world is not geared to give you (us) what you need, it is geared towards cranking out mindless drones. Academia has no intent of dispensing core knowledge, or wisdom. Academia is in the business of sustaining its existence by creating cookie-cutter images of itself in its graduates – an educational manufacturer, if you will.

And the biggest challenge, the challenge of reality - college taught me that everyone that says that they know something, doesn't necessarily know anything. Professors, students, alumni – the story was pretty much the same, most people got a vestige of knowledge but no real understanding. There were very few people that really knew what the proclaimed to know, the rest were mostly talking heads. They knew how to spout phraseology and baffle the uninitiated but there was little substance to their dialog. How many times have you talked to an "educated" person and come away asking, "What the hell did they say?"

So…don't leave college. There are valuable lessons to be learned. You have the right tools (your INTJ-ness, primarily) to dig beneath the surface. Just know that you will always be "outside".

[Rei]

All I have to say is...
College is SLOWLY driving you to insanity? SLOWLY, what do you mean SLOWLY!?
I think I've been fully insane since the first month of university.

[mind_wander]

All I have to say is...
College is SLOWLY driving you to insanity? *SLOWLY, what do you mean SLOWLY!?
I think I've been fully insane since the first month of university.
Slowly by definition= I am not learning nothing[please test my true skills].

[Rei]

Slowly by definition= I am not learning nothing[please test my true skills].
you're "not learning nothing"... so you ARE learning something... right? :thinking:

[mind_wander]

lol, yes I am.

[klokpsykl]

This is something that I am currently dealing with. I am not really in a position to be giving out advice. I certainly keep avoiding things I am supposed to learn and enveloping myself in only that which interests me. Frustrating really.

[mind_wander]

Hey, we all INTJ's been there. We called that filtering, things we like, then we take. As for things, we don't like, we spit it out. Trust me it is hard, next week my team has to present most likely 20mins, I should be standing for about 5mins or so. My definition of 5 mins felt like 5hours in prison.

[GOD]

Hey, we all INTJ's been there. We called that filtering, things we like, then we take. As for things, we don't like, we spit it out. Trust me it is hard, next week my team has to present most likely 20mins, I should be standing for about 5mins or so. My definition of 5 mins felt like 5hours in prison.

If you want to be the best, then confront everything that you'd normally try to steer away from like Public speaking and positively try to do them (on purpose) just so you get good at them.

Confront your weaknesses always.

[mind_wander]

Actually, I lost count how many presentations I've done. But, it is great practice. The key skill is how to present it in a way to attract the audience. Since everyone's give me the blank face; well at least I got their attention. That a plus, not many people can give u a look; the normal look is look at you then see what I should do for homework, party, etc. When you capture their attention, reinforce the facts with easy concepts. Yea, all the INTj's are dumbfounded to demean your intellengence, but do it. Then, the ideas, logics, will flow much smoothly. Next time someone wants to do a project with you, then you are the go to girl or guy.

[GOD]

Yea, all the INTj's are dumbfounded to demean your intellengence, but do it. Then, the ideas, logics, will flow much smoothly.

Yes, if you're the conceptualist/ideas person then have as your side kick the proficient doer, why? You think and they will assemble.

When I was doing my finance degree for my dissertation (Analysis of various listed airline companies) I teamed up with a woman that was simply hot at typing and skilled at using MS Word. I just analysed everything to death and then reeled it all off while she just went hard out typing it all up. The outcome was the 2nd best report in the whole finance degree year. A+.

Sure I might have done 90% of the work, but it was her that made it possible. Why? Otherwise the scale of my project would never have made it into a slick report... I would have cut and run with a condensed 10 page report that would have been too intuitive rather than explaining it out all in detail (so that my sidekick could also comprehend).

When you leave college, you may just find generally that "people" start driving you to insanity.... it’s an art to change down a few gears to the speed of which other people are thinking.

[Vayate]

I find myself doing much better in university, but maybe that's because I'm taking classes relevant to my interests almost exclusively. International political science is my field of expertise, so that branches out into history, economics and a host of other topics; certainly enough to cover my major requirements in addition to electives. That said, I've had none of the problems that OP mentions; it does indeed sound more like high school and doesn't indicate a quality education. A transfer is certainly in order.

[mind_wander]

Yea, all the INTj's are dumbfounded to demean your intellengence, but do it. Then, the ideas, logics, will flow much smoothly.

Yes, if you're the conceptualist/ideas person then have as your side kick the proficient doer, why? You think and they will assemble.

When I was doing my finance degree for my dissertation (Analysis of various listed airline companies) I teamed up with a woman that was simply hot at typing and skilled at using MS Word. I just analysed everything to death and then reeled it all off while she just went hard out typing it all up. The outcome was the 2nd best report in the whole finance degree year. A+.

Sure I might have done 90% of the work, but it was her that made it possible. Why? Otherwise the scale of my project would never have made it into a slick report... I would have cut and run with a condensed 10 page report that would have been too intuitive rather than explaining it out all in detail (so that my sidekick could also comprehend).

When you leave college, you may just find generally that "people" start driving you to insanity.... it’s an art to change down a few gears to the speed of which other people are thinking. *

Yeah, I totally agree having a side kick is so cool. This semester first presentation in having a ESFJ is not bad at all althought its somewhat an INTJ counterpart. The key point is that we are more detailed oriented, while she is more the typer; me analyze, then she type it. Any questions from her, I will 100% send up an answer. Rarely have a problem.

Next time, our group presentation my professor told us, " We got the choice to pick anyone as a 4 member team or keep the same team." I am definitely having her on my team again; do not want to be last in line, plus she work extra hard. 2 hard workers = A. In this report is like 10 pgs.

As for another team, I got an ENTJ and me[INTJ]. This kind of combination is great, I know he is very goal driven, get that large pile done. Too bad can't help him out because he picked out a section needed to be done; I called the professor's list of doom. You picked it, take it like a man. Next round, glad to help out my fellow ENTJ partner. Definitely for our 4 member team presentation; we will do very well standing in front; in knowing who is your partner and personality trait makes more sense to me. I guess my task is the gatekeeper or the "Go to guy", got any questions, "Feel free to ask/call/email me and most of my team members does not have a problem with that." In this final project its like 120pgs.

[thegnat]

I'm not saying a word....if I do - I'll probably just tell you how insane I've become in college.....perhaps I'm sane, but that's debatable. I certainly don't feel too sane...

[mind_wander]

Well actually, this is the 2nd time as a class we kinda pissed off our professor. The big silent treatment, as a P. Silence is not an answer, asking questions is an answer. I'm an INTJ, me speaking is after class. Needed to take it all in process, then reprocess; nodding head, smiling, laughing means I get ya.

[INTJoe]

Hmmm, what you described sounds more like high school for me. Boring, slow, boring, slow, etc. Then again I was also pretty lazy so I did dissuade my physics teacher from recommending me for Honors physics. :thinking: That is to say, I didn't challenge myself too much in H.S. Honestly I was always daydreaming about other things including college and the future. I wanted to start college at age 16 if I could have. (I wouldn't have gotten in, but it's how I felt). Ready to tackle the next stage.

College for me was pretty awesome. Definitely challenging enough for an INTJ. I got a 5 year professionally-accredited degree in Architecture. I never felt bored or unchallenged, and if so, well, I worked fulltime over the weekend to put gas in my car and so I was always challenged. I definitely got to stimulate both my creative side and my logical side at College.

I suppose I don't have any advice for you, but I'd say think of College as two different things: Getting a degree and learning. The two aren't always intrinsic! ;) In other words, do what you ahve to do to get the degree, but in the mean time, if something piques your interest, by all means explore it.

And if you get out and feel like you didn't learn all you could, well keep in mind the average adult "stops learning" around age 25, but fear not, as an INTJ will probably never stop learning. I'm almost 29 and I still feel a magnetic pull from Barnes & Noble bookstores when I'm in my car. So don't be down, try to roll with the punches and take "doing college" as a challenge and figure out how to most-efficiently "do" it.

[mind_wander]

That is true, INTJ's love to learn; never boring, but a great challenge.

[patobrocks]

When I was at UNLV, I was insane. The school drove me nuts. The degree was everything. It almost seemed like there was a term paper store on campus, and there was so many adjunct instructors, who assigned no work and we took scantron tests. I am NAU, and for the most part find it challenging, and it is all online, which I prefer. It is more work, but that is okay. UNLV was not a total waste I did have two great professors. I would not call the students lazy, most worked full time in the casinos, so their focus was not in school. I like to hang out and talk about the class, or just use it as a starting point.

School is just like work: sometimes it’s the job that sucks, and sometimes it's the company.

However, I am glad that I've had a varied liberal arts experience. Each semester, I grow closer to the person I want to be, and next summer I start grad school. Some of the 400 classes are fun.

[chunes]

I dropped out of college because it was pointless.

[xtremegeek]

Yep - college can be mind-numbing, but don't drop out. I had straight A's my first semester of college. When I met with my advisor to schedule my second semester, I told her how bored I was, so she had me 'audit' various classes to see if I liked them. We met again after my second semester (again all A's) and I again complained about how stupid I thought college was and that my only challenge was finding ways to pay for it. After my third semester, I did not register for classes right away, so my advisor called me. I told her I was going to drop out of school. Why should I bust my hump to pay for school when I'm getting nothing out of it. She convinced me to transfer to another school where I could study something more challenging. Her stance was, do anything but drop out of school.

I've appreciated her advice and certainly have benefited from it financially, so my advice to you is seek out subjects that are interesting to you, even if that means transfering to a different school...but don't drop out.

[patobrocks]

Yep - college can be mind-numbing, but don't drop out. *I had straight A's my first semester of college. *When I met with my advisor to schedule my second semester, I told her how bored I was, so she had me 'audit' various classes to see if I liked them. *We met again after my second semester (again all A's) and I again complained about how stupid I thought college was and that my only challenge was finding ways to pay for it. *After my third semester, I did not register for classes right away, so my advisor called me. *I told her I was going to drop out of school. *Why should I bust my hump to pay for school when I'm getting nothing out of it. *She convinced me to transfer to another school where I could study something more challenging. *Her stance was, do anything but drop out of school.

I've appreciated her advice and certainly have benefited from it financially, so my advice to you is seek out subjects that are interesting to you, even if that means transfering to a different school...but don't drop out.

I don't take advice often, but this the exception.

Quite a few years ago, I decided that I would never do anything that I didn't want to do needlessly. I would only do those things that brought me satisifaction, but if I needed to do some other things that I did not like that was okay, if it helped me attain my goals. Believe me, when I tell you, that I hate sign language, but I am taking a class this semester and next, because if I don't I can't grauduate and go to grad school. So, and just like each of you know, it's the big picture that counts. When I see my life from the big perspective I can suffer any context.

[Henry]

Hi. I'm new here. But enough chit-chat ;D. As the subject says, I can't stand college. It is oriented towards getting a degree instead of getting knowledge. Everyone I have sought advice of has betrayed such vastly different presuppositions as to what college is even for that I have decided to seek out the advice of INTJs. Frankly, I didn't know there was anyone like me until I stumbled upon the MBTI. I haven't found many, if any, of my own kind so far in life, and need the advice of some who have been through this already.

With respect, if you find college too restrictive, you will not be able to function in the real world, where you'll spend a far greater amount of time in roles subservient to dumber and more arbitrary people than college professors.

I actually found very warm reception to unique ideas, provided they were expressed an appropriate manner, eg with use of tact, in a different approach to a subject they taught in class, in a traditional format, etc. As independent as the INTJ is, we still have to find ways to work with others...unless you plan on doing the Thoreau thing,

[cielo market]

I agree that attendance is overrated and usually end up teaching myself. I took at least 5 classes online last year.

[vulcan]

My problem is finding a degree that is interesting enough to spend time on.

Maybe economics is the answer. Maybe cognitive science. Maybe.

[thegnat]

My problem is finding a degree that is interesting enough to spend time on.

Maybe economics is the answer. Maybe cognitive science. Maybe.
is it that you have too many interests or just haven't found that subject you're passionate about?

[vulcan]

I do most of my learning, like all of us, on my own. So taking a class on one subject for an entire quarter is mind-numbing. Right now I'm just doing GEs (in my second year) and I'm basically done with all of those requirements. I'm feeling more pressured to pick a major now, of course, so I spend time going through every major and google/wiki/MITonlinecourses topics having to do with the major and see if I like it or not.

I think everything appeals to me, but I don't like the foreseen applications of many majors. I don't want to sit in a lab all day or do shitty work etc. But that's what most majors get you.

I have this urge to just travel the world and learn everything about everything. I don't want the structure of school. I want to do shit my own way of course. But I understand that I have to abide by the system, so I stay in school.

So to answer your question, I have too many interests and am being forced by college to make a choice about which is best.

[Henry]

My problem is finding a degree that is interesting enough to spend time on.

Maybe economics is the answer. Maybe cognitive science. Maybe.

Economics is rapidly becoming "using math on economic data". *Its very different as an undergrad, but if you even remotely think you may be interested in an advanced degree, I would avoid it.

Its gone from an Nt discipline to a very ISTJ mode. *And I generally hate the ISTJ perspective, as Ithink its life-denying. *

Furthermore, as a disproportionate number of econ grad students are from a certain part of the world where E, N, F and P are strongly discouraged, it seems likely that they will have taken economics from the complex theory and information synthesis and integration to basically being a major about using basic insights from math on economic data to establish horribly obvious theses. *w00t.

Don't believe me? Read some of the journals. Engaging stuff, Mr. Cho Ho talking about how his econometric data shows that increased savings in China will lead to an increase in exports.

[vulcan]

True. I just don't know what else to major in.

Plus, I guess econ majors can go into finance/accounting/management pretty easily. Those fields seem good in theory. I guess they probably brain dead.

[thegnat]

I do most of my learning, like all of us, on my own. So taking a class on one subject for an entire quarter is mind-numbing. Right now I'm just doing GEs (in my second year) and I'm basically done with all of those requirements. I'm feeling more pressured to pick a major now, of course, so I spend time going through every major and google/wiki/MITonlinecourses topics having to do with the major and see if I like it or not.

I think everything appeals to me, but I don't like the foreseen applications of many majors. I don't want to sit in a lab all day or do shitty work etc. But that's what most majors get you.

I have this urge to just travel the world and learn everything about everything. I don't want the structure of school. I want to do shit my own way of course. But I understand that I have to abide by the system, so I stay in school.

So to answer your question, I have too many interests and am being forced by college to make a choice about which is best.


Ah yes, I wasn't sure if I wanted to spend all my time in the lab or not.
<start of ramble/soap box on science majors if you don't care to read a ramble/soap box don't read further, you know I ended up a chem major and I love science>And I hated organic and intro chemistry lab. But I was still interested in the subject (though intro and orgo aren't the most interesting of all chem). I'm so glad I stuck with it though. And I found I actually *do* like inorganic lab. I have found a lab that fits me. And an area of chemistry I am passionate about learning about. Lab work can be shitty there's no doubt about that. But there's either a lab that fits you or you can be a physical chemist and not do shit in the lab. And/or computational. No wet chemistry work. Oh and then there are the laser labs. Man I do want to try that spec lab sometime. All kinds of things you can do with it too. Other grad departments love science majors, too because they're rational and the department knows the science major had to go through a shit load of work.</ramble>

And yeah I wanted to travel - but actually science can let you travel too if you play your cards right. And actually I'm planning on doing a huge European trip before grad school.

Basically I think that whatever you find you're most interested in won't have as many restrictions as you had worried about at first.

Like just because you're an econ major doesn't mean you have to devote your life and soul to it. Unless of course you want to - it's your choice.

I'm biased but I think cognitive science has a very promising future. The brain is such a complex organ and you'll be able to find more and more about it. There will be exciting new discoveries, you'll discover some things yourself. And an advanced degree here I think would probably be useful. Of course cognitive science is different than chemistry, but it is a science. Cognitive science is probably a good combination of neuroscience and psychology.

IMHO econ is more commonsense based than anything.

I know I couldn't stand going into finance/accounting/management. Waaaay too dry for me. But that's me, not you.

[vulcan]

I have shifts that I can barely explain regarding my preference for major. It's like a major of the week thing. I usually just rotate between two or three majors, but it happened tonight too.

I woke up wanting to do econ shit and management/accounting and have been thinking that's what I'll probably end up doing for the past few weeks. Tonight, something in my brain switched and now I want to do cog sci again.

This happens all the time so I never really feel settled. But yeah, I know that you're right about cog sci. I just think I should have a larger background in hard science (chemistry) for it, but I have some weird phobia of chemistry. Also, the only reason I would do cog sci is to go to grad school. I came to college as a Neuroscience major. But I was in NROTC too for the first year and had to drop Neurosci. I feel like I've wasted a lot of time and my schedule isn't very efficient now, but what can I do about it?

That's my soap box ;/

I know the switches are linked to what I read about the subjects online though. That shit about how econ is a lot of commonsense bullshit I've heard before, experienced in high school (worst class I've ever taken was HS econ... dry as shit), and have a decent idea about. But then I get scared about how cog sci or another major won't land me a good job at the same time that I preach about hating the "system".

[mind_wander]

I do most of my learning, like all of us, on my own. So taking a class on one subject for an entire quarter is mind-numbing. Right now I'm just doing GEs (in my second year) and I'm basically done with all of those requirements. I'm feeling more pressured to pick a major now, of course, so I spend time going through every major and google/wiki/MITonlinecourses topics having to do with the major and see if I like it or not.

I think everything appeals to me, but I don't like the foreseen applications of many majors. I don't want to sit in a lab all day or do shitty work etc. But that's what most majors get you.

I have this urge to just travel the world and learn everything about everything. I don't want the structure of school. I want to do shit my own way of course. But I understand that I have to abide by the system, so I stay in school.

So to answer your question, I have too many interests and am being forced by college to make a choice about which is best.

I kinda who what you mean, "Why can be a school geared toward the INTJ openedness?" If someone does not like being too open-minded, then well more room, for this demographics. I find that many colleges or universities, focuses on this area-the grey area. It helps gather everyone with the brightest mind in the world and get you engaged in something that you want, but not what they want[besides it must be acedemic and not offending no one, lol]. Now, has anyone asked this questions to yourself before. Its true INTJ, like alot of subjects because we know how to reroute the system.

Don't believe me? Read some of the journals. Engaging stuff, Mr. Cho Ho talking about how his econometric data shows that increased savings in China will lead to an increase in exports.
Its actually true, most of the exports are from CHINA.

And I hated organic and intro chemistry lab. But I was still interested in the subject (though intro and orgo aren't the most interesting of all chem). I'm so glad I stuck with it though. And I found I actually *do* like inorganic lab. I have found a lab that fits me. And an area of chemistry I am passionate about learning about. Lab work can be shitty there's no doubt about that. But there's either a lab that fits you or you can be a physical chemist and not do shit in the lab. And/or computational. No wet chemistry work. Oh and then there are the laser labs. Man I do want to try that spec lab sometime. All kinds of things you can do with it too. Other grad departments love science majors, too because they're rational and the department knows the science major had to go through a shit load of work.
Speaking about labs, stepping on top of the soapbox. Actually, I find in previous lab works, I do much better than taking test or quizes because doing the labs can help you explore things in the palm of your hands.

[thegnat]

on cog sci - I don't think you need much chemistry for it. Our neuroscience majors are *really* psychology based and less hard science based. Plus I think neurosci is more of a hard sci than cog sci even. It looks like here we need intro chem. (I did look into neurosci too. it fascinates me. And I could be my own neurologist! Eh, I don't really care to be my own doctor. Too psych based for me though - it turned me off. PSYC research methods. yeah here you can get away with only taking chem...That's a bit more "cog sci" ish than the biochem track here IMO.

A lot of people have a fear of chem. But if you take it, you'll probably be taking intro level. Which really isn't the most interesting chem, but hopefully they'll have applications that you can relate to - actually my pchem prof is doing research on Ca2+ and astrocytes that may be a cause of epilepsy.

I'd suggest either getting to know a major with a better background in chem than you if you're struggling - they should be willing to help you out. I help out one of my teammates with chem sometimes. If someone asks me a chem question I'll be willing to help. They should be glad to help you out. And intro chem is pretty much cake for them - most likely intended majors last through gen chem. Then just doing your problem sets and stuff. Gen chem for you won't be the initiation it was for majors at Ohio Northern.

The schedule thing - Oh I know how that goes. I'm in a similar situation being a transfer except I've got my kinks pretty much worked out. Still have another gen ed to go after this year though.

As for econ - I really have only taken intro level so I really don't know what upper level is like and can't say.

and labs - yeah. I like the hands-on aspect of labs. Just oy if you aren't efficient...and things go downhill for some reason or another....it's not good for confidence especially if you're planning on majoring in something with a lab. But I've found my niche so I'm happy.

Anywho I hope something works out for you :)

[vulcan]

Cog sci replaces chem with computer science. Mostly about modeling intelligence and researching intelligent systems. But cognitive psychology is pretty close knit. I mean, all of my upper div for cog sci is psych.

I can get a waiver out of my one required quarter of chem with my high school chem class. So chem isn't important at all for it. But it is for understanding brain functioning, so I don't quite get that. I guess I just memorize the neurotransmitters without understanding their interactions.

What turned you off about psych research methods? The fact that they are all stupid questionnaires and personal reporting? I like the cognitive psych stuff better anyway. Get to use machines on brains.

I checked out Kenyon college (where you go, apparently) and it's pretty sweet that they have a NS major as a small private Lib arts college.

[Kfbr]

I finally got back into school at the age of 22. I've almost got my AS in Political Science where I plan to transfer to the University of Utah and get my Bachelors in something easy, but says I'm not retarded. I ran for student government here in college and am a regional president of my college.

What did I do in High School? I dropped out when I was 15 with a GPA of 1.5. Didn't get involved for shit. One day a few years ago I realized I wanted to be a politician. In true INTJ fashion I planned the next 10 years of my life. Could I do what I want right now? Fuck yeah, but unfortunately the rest of the worlds needs a piece of paper to validate their existence. But the desire for what I want to do is so strong that I'll do their dance for 7 years in college because everything will be worth it in the end. I study my ass off, keep a 3.8~ GPA and get involved on campus every way I can.

I've got letters of recommendation, I've got the public service, the GPA and studying for my LSATS all the time all in preparation for what I really want - Law school which will get me to where I really want - the state attorneys office.

Then it off to the governors mansion.. then the federal COURTS, THEN MAINE, THAN TO IOWA, THEN TO THE WHITE HOUSE!

YYYEEEEEAHHHHHHHHHH!

[terencec]

"You go to university to get a piece of paper that says you're an idiot, so that some idiot will hire you, to do a job any idiot could do." It really helps career wise to have that piece of paper, but other than that it's pretty worthless. It did point me in the right direction in terms of showing me what I could learn, but all this was done by myself... which I think I could have done without going at all.

I have exactly same feelings as you. But we have to play the "game" to get the job. It is just BS.

[mind_wander]

I have exactly same feelings as you. But we have to play the "game" to get the job. It is just BS.

yeah, it a pretty expensive piece of paper.

[terencec]

yeah, it a pretty expensive piece of paper.

A lot of effort, a lot of late night study, a lot of homework, quiz, exam. No girl, no sex while most have fun with their girlfriends. After graudate, work for idiots, Only Masochists would do so!

On the other hand, without the paper, who will believe you can the job? This is dilemma.

[mind_wander]

A lot of effort, a lot of late night study, a lot of homework, quiz, exam. No girl, no sex while most have fun with their girlfriends. It hurted. After graudate, work for idiots, it hurts even more!

Well, hold on a sec. After you graduate, its up to you to choose what you want to do, after that. You can have girlfriends, if you decided too; plus you are done with school. So there is free time to do so. No more excuse, "But, I got alot of homework to do." Female: Oh really, it says you graduated and your not enrolled into college yet. Who are you fooling? Yeah, you do have to deal with idiots, however your on top, so don't forget that. Everything is a give or take gig.

[terencec]

Well, hold on a sec. After you graduate, its up to you to choose what you want to do, after that. You can have girlfriends, if you decided too; plus you are done with school. So there is free time to do so. No more excuse, "But, I got alot of homework to do." Female: Oh really, it says you graduated and your not enrolled into college yet. Who are you fooling? Yeah, you do have to deal with idiots, however your on top, so don't forget that. Everything is a give or take gig.

I just said I did not have gf in college. I am not saying I don't have time for gf right now even I still don't have. Won't explain the obvious reason. If you ever work for some companies like IntXl, I guarantee you won't have anytime for gf, wife or enough sleep. You will work like hell. But you won't be rich. I never worked for that company.

I think you may want to work in the summer (not insult you never work, you may.) It is not easy to find the job or boss you like. I have worked for a few companies, big companies, small companies, some jobs/bosses were better than others but I am never satisfied.

If your field is super hot, analog circuit design, maybe you are much easier to find the ideal job/boss than my field semiconductor.

[rocksteady]

Economics is rapidly becoming "using math on economic data". Its very different as an undergrad, but if you even remotely think you may be interested in an advanced degree, I would avoid it.

Its gone from an Nt discipline to a very ISTJ mode. And I generally hate the ISTJ perspective, as Ithink its life-denying.

Furthermore, as a disproportionate number of econ grad students are from a certain part of the world where E, N, F and P are strongly discouraged, it seems likely that they will have taken economics from the complex theory and information synthesis and integration to basically being a major about using basic insights from math on economic data to establish horribly obvious theses. w00t.

Don't believe me? Read some of the journals. Engaging stuff, Mr. Cho Ho talking about how his econometric data shows that increased savings in China will lead to an increase in exports.

I was thinking of doing econ as undergraduate, and then moving to a different field where I can use the techniques learned from economics to social problems/situations (kinda like that guy that wrote freakonomics, he seemed like an INTJ)

Any recommendations?

[Cyrus]

School these days merely teaches people to process, not to progress. I'm finishing up a finance major and most of the time, i'm scoring B- or B.
Mainly because I do ALOT of outside reading and think what they teach in school is complete bullshit.
It's prob diff for hard sciences, or engineering. So yes, sch's driving me nuts too.
Speaking as a Bsch student, i'd say accounting is the most useful major.

Economics these days has taken too much from Paul Samuelson (efficient mkt BS) who incidentally chucked a tonne of $$ with Warren Buffet while tauting "efficient mkts".
So do beware of undergrad level economics.

IMHO, I think the most important thing it to be able to internalise what is being taught, but questioning it before you do. The worst thing that can happen is to internalise faulty knowledge.

[Rocksteady] You may want to look into Statistics. ALOT of econs uses it, particularly event studies (a methodology); Freakonomics derives its data using event studies amongst other numerical/statistical methods.

[Heero]

Sounds like your college is to blame.

For me highschool was the worst experience in my life, I have to say. College, while I am uber introverted so don't talk to many people, is actually quite enjoyable. The first year or so was a bit irritating with general ed classes that have to satisfy requirements that were rather boring, but now that I'm in my field almost exclusively it's pretty fun most of the time.

If the profs aren't open, you really need to change schools. My professors are always open. I had been reading about non-standard analysis (mathematical analysis with the use of infinitesimals instead of the epsilon-delta definition of a limit) and was curious about it, so I just talked to my professor when he wasn't busy one day and he told me everything he knew and said if I had additional questions he could point me to the professor in the department that does research in analysis. That kind of openness is what you need.

The key is to find a school where most of the professors love what they teach. If they love what they teach, they're generally going to be open to new ideas, and if you're interested in knowing more they're going to be excited not irritated, because it's another person who loves what they love.

Also, get a laptop. If a class is boring an repeating things you know, play Final Fantasy I-VI. It really does make class more livable. I've only had to resort to this in one class, where the professor literally wrote things out of the book with errors on the board. Other than that, never had to use that technique :P

[Rohsiph]

Not much new to add-- I played the game mostly to try validating the money/effort my parents were offering towards my education, getting slightly above-average grades mostly, through my 2nd year of college. 3rd year, that started changing as I've consistently been very interested in the subject matter of more than half my classes any given term--my grades shot up, as did my challenges.

It used to take me 2 hours to write a 4-6 page humanities paper, and I'd generally get nothing less than a B-, but almost never above an A-. Now it takes me a minimum of 10 hours, but I've yet to receive a grade below a B+, and I'm increasingly proud of my work.

I'd probably hate my life if I had to balance a job in addition to my academic work . . . but, fortunately, my parents spoil me (to a degree).