A chat with Isabel Myers

[alwayscurious]

Yesterday, I was offered an opportunity to meet and talk with Isabel Myers (as in Myers Briggs) who apparently lives very close to the area where I work. If you had the opportunity to talk with one if the creators of mbti, what would you ask or say?

[Elfrun]

"Why the hell didn't you change the terms Introverted and Extroverted to something people wouldn't stereotype as loud and quiet?" Then I'd glare at them with quiet extroverted intent!

Actually I'd be more interested in their thoughts now, do they still believe the 16 type system is applicable and accurate. Many people get disjointed with the practical application of the system, or lack thereof the more they study it, how do they see it as practical.

[stock]

I would inquire about her thoughts on:

1) The orientation of the third function
2) Type development over a lifetime and how the tert function development alters MBTI test results and introduces error
3) Why havent others in the typological community noticed the Fe/Ti vs FiTe split before and how it can cause issues? If rank hobbiests online can see it, why havent professionals?
4) Why did MBTI delay so very long into moving MBTI into areas of mental health, especially in personality disorders? I realize the money is made off of industry and college students, where "all types are great and all people are perfectlyokay! :)" but significant good could have come from allowing the tool to be used in areas where people suffer as well.

Not that Id ask this, as when you meet famous people you are not supposed to question them, just listen.

[reckful]

The Isabel Myers who co-created the MBTI died in 1980.

[Elfrun]

A mere technicality!

[titi monkey]

The Isabel Myers who co-created the MBTI died in 1980.

It's still a good question (What would you ask?). I'd ask why they decided to alternate introversion and extraversion between the superior function and the first auxiliary function. It's led to nothing but confusion and heartache.

[alwayscurious]

Reckful, I'll be sure to ask the person who offered an introduction about that. Im quite certain she wouldnt lie to me but it is obviously possible that she knows where she used to live and not where she currently lives. According to my friend, Isabel is in her 90s and is still alive.

Stock, can you elaborate on question #1?

[reckful]

Since Isabel was born on October 18, 1897, she would be an impressive 113 years old if she were alive today.

If you get a chance, tell her reckful thinks she's awesome.

[True Rune]

I imagine these types have to have some origin in the brain.. any insight there?

[alwayscurious]

Thanks for the bio information on Isabel, Reckful. I imagine that I would have gotten around to it at some point today but this little thing called my job kind of got on the way. Perhaps the woman is her daughter...and if she is, I'll be sure to clue her into the existence of this forum and others like it.

[reckful]

I regret to report that Isabel's only daughter died in 1972. Isabel had two granddaughters, though, named Jennifer and Kathleen. Maybe one of them had a daughter named Isabel -- although she wouldn't be in her 90's.

Be sure to let us know how it goes.

[VF1J]

So this guy is going to meet a 90 year old woman who coincidentally has the name Isabel Myers and talk to her about MBTI... Maybe it's a cosplayer?

[alwayscurious]

Reckful, I'll be sure to get right on letting you know how it goes. I'm glad you had the time to help me out with Isabel myers' info...I'll be sure to reprimand the kind lady who offered the introduction. Shame on her ....and shame on me for assuming that she was right. thanks to those who answered my question. Thinking about what I would ask her and others would ask is interesting to me.

[dogwoodlover]

I'd knock her ass out with a Jungian left hook.

[True Rune]

So this guy is going to meet a 90 year old woman who coincidentally has the name Isabel Myers and talk to her about MBTI... Maybe it's a cosplayer?

I've never seen those at anime fairs.

[stock]

hehehe, this thread is quite funny...it did briefly cross my mind that the timing seemed a little skewed, but I am often wrong, so I figured I misunderstood something.

to clarify question 1-According to Jungian theory nobody seems to have a concrete understanding of the orientation of the tertiary function-does it match the dominant function or does it actually match the auxiliary function with respect to being introverted or extroverted?

So on forums it seems about 90% of folks seem very comfortable saying it matches the dominant function-thus for an ENFP, NeFiTe rather than NeFiTi. From what I understand, most folks in the professional field feel this is the correct answer.

However Jung left a vague one liner saying it went the other direction and if I recall, Briggs built this into her model-thus an ENFP would be NeFiTi.

So in all of the official literature on the topic from MBTI and CPP, the tert function is just left as T, not Ti or Te for an ENFP, and so on for the other types.

The first time I saw this discussion, after about two years on MBTI boards, I thought, wow how ridiculous, but since it is "official" many folks will still argue it is true.

[reckful]

Describing extraverts in Psychological Types, Jung said:

A normal extraverted attitude does not, of course, mean that the individual invariably behaves in accordance with the extraverted schema. Even in the same individual many psychological processes may be observed that involve the mechanism of introversion. We call a mode of behaviour extraverted only when the mechanism of extraversion predominates. In these cases the most differentiated function is always employed in an extraverted way, whereas the inferior functions are introverted.

Similarly, in his description of the "introverted thinking type," Jung wrote:

The counterbalancing functions of feeling, intuition, and sensation are comparatively unconscious and inferior, and therefore have a primitive extraverted character that accounts for all the troublesome influences from outside to which the introverted thinker is prone.

In Gifts Differing, Myers cited both these passages to support her view of the "balancing" orientation of the auxiliary function -- but without (as far as I know) expressly offering any independent view of her own on the tertiary function.

The official MBTI Manual follows Jung and shows the orientation of the tertiary function as opposite to the dominant -- although, for what it's worth, Wikipedia (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) says, "There is controversy even within the Center for Applications of Psychological Type (CAPT), co-founded by Myers, regarding the attitude of the tertiary relative to the dominant."

[titi monkey]

MBTI is a separate model than the actual Jungian model.

In the Jungian model, there are two spheres: conscious and unconscious. Conscious is that which you have discretionary control over -- you know why you did something and if you had to, could readily explain it. Unconscious is that which you do, but are simply not aware of. If someone was to point out to you something you just did, you would be hard-pressed to explain it. You might spout off some platitude, or simply assume that such things have always been done that way; but you couldn't really give a detailed explanation for it.

With the Jungians, most people will only ever gain control over one function in their lifetime, with spotty control at best over the other three. Some will gain control over a support function, and use it nearly as well as the primary function. So if, for whatever reason, you are primarily intuitive, a secondary function could be either thinking or feeling (because they don't compete directly with intuition). The one that doesn't become secondary will become tertiary, and much more spotty in its ability to be skillfully controlled. Trying to navigate by way of one of these lesser functions is often clumsy, frustrating, and unproductive -- if not downright dangerous: you simply have little control over when it comes and goes, or when it works with you and when it works against you.

As you do gain control over these functions, they become conscious functions. You decide when, how, and how much they'll be used. If your attitude is introverted, they will be introverted also. The unconscious attitude (because it provides compensation for the conscious attitude) is always the opposite. Those functions (or that part of a function) which are not conscious will be extraverted in their expression.

So in summary; if you're an introverted, intuitive thinker, it would be feeling and sensation that are extroverted, not thinking and sensation.