Grading on the curve

[hauteur]

I am in a college course where I have been getting 100% across the board. It's an online class, so you don't get a lot of feedback from the instructor, not really.

Anyway, I was very pleased with myself for getting 100% on everything, particularly since there have been a couple of assignments that I knew I wasn't going to get 100% on. To my surprise, I did.

Then, there was the midterm. I got 100%. Only I didn't. This time, he showed that I missed two questions. I was immediately horrified to realize that I had not been doing perfectly - only that I had been doing better than anyone else.

How would you guys feel about this? What is more important, to do it perfectly or to do it better than everyone else? Or do you not see a difference?

[ssfanatic]

Im still in highschool and when foreign language rears its ugly head, i am satisfied with simply doing better than the others. Yet in any math or science class, i want to truly learn in rather than show that i can out-do my peers. So i think it lies in your preference of the subject. If i have no intention of pursuing anything that pertains to Spanish (which i dont) then why should i care if i truly grasp the topic, but with other topics i dont care how others do, i just want to succeed.

[Jgib5328]

For pride's sake it's better to do it perfectly, but for logical purposes, it suffices to just do better than the curve. As long as you do reasonably better than the curve, you generally get A's in college.

[Erika Redmark]

Yeah, the only time I would say a curve is really bad or unfair is if there's a predetermined number of people who have to end up failing the course or getting some other terrible grade. I've never actually experienced this first-hand, but I read The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Teens when I was a kid (my parents gave it to me, probably to improve my behaviour), and he describes a situation like this to illustrate how bad "thinking lose/lose" (or lose/win, I forget) is. The author was once in a course where no matter how well they did, nine people had to fail. WTF?!

[Aronnax]

There are a lot of professors out there, particularly in science and math, that got their doctorate to do research. They chose to do their work at a University to secure a baseline salary and to access the equipment and free labor (grad students) for their research. These professors only teach because it's part of the job. Their understand of what's "hard" is more than a bit skewed and they rely on the curve to correct for their own deficiencies.

I've taken tests where the highest score was 53%, the class average was in the 30's and there weren't any dumb/lazy students in that class, they had all been washed out in the prerequisite classes. The way those kind of scores are corrected is to set a C at the median and a standard deviation in either direction changes the grade 1 letter. It sounds crazy but you do learn the material, every midterm is an exercise in terror and the only way to combat it is to work you ass off.

[Tenacious B]

Perfection, but its nature, automatically puts you ahead of everyone that is imperfect, so that seems like the desirable goal.

I frankly never cared how well or poorly other students were doing as long as I was satisfied with how I was doing.

[Monte314]

I agree with Aronnax, as usual.

I teach, and giving grades is the worst part of the job; I wish there were some way to do away with it, but it is necessary. It's particularly bad when a student gets into a real mess and needs some "special consideration", as in the following case:

I was teaching an integral calculus course at Penn State back in 1981 or 1982... anyway, it was the summer term, and I only had 8 or 10 students.

After class one day, one of my students, a nicely dressed young man with a middle-eastern name, stayed behind.

"Sir, I have to get an 'A' in your class."

I smiled. "I wish all my students felt that way!"

He didn't laugh. "No, sir, you do not understand. I HAVE to get an 'A' in your class."

He was right: I didn't understand. "Why do you HAVE to get an 'A' in my class?"

He looked down at the floor. "Sir, I am newly arrived in this country on a provisional visa. I am registered for two summer courses; if I do not maintain at least a 'C' average, I will not be accepted at the University, my visa will be revoked, I will have to go back to my home country of Iran, where I will be immediately be drafted into the military, and will DIE IN THE DESERT in the Iran-Iraq War."

Wow, I thought, this is one of the best stories I've heard in a long time. "So, why do you need an 'A' in MY class?", I asked.

"Because", he said, "I had to drop the other class, and that counts as an 'F'. If I do not get an 'A' in your class, in three months I'll be dead."

I told him I would consider his situation. I went back to my office and called the Dean of Students to check out his story.

"Everything he told you is true", she said. "Unless he gets that grade, his future is very bleak."

I pulled out the grade book... he got a 'C' on the Midterm. There was NO WAY he could honestly earn an 'A' in the course, even if I was very generous. Should a young man be sentenced to death because he can't do math?

So... what do you think I did? And what would you have done?

[bubbles]

I pulled out the grade book... he got a 'C' on the Midterm. There was NO WAY he could honestly earn an 'A' in the course, even if I was very generous. Should a young man be sentenced to death because he can't do math?

So... what do you think I did? And what would you have done?

Wow. I don't even know what to do in that situation. That must have been hard for you. So did he end up getting a C?

[catd]

I hope you gave him an A. I would have. I probably would have also tutored him until he could really get an A or at least a B!

[Tsuru]

I pulled out the grade book... he got a 'C' on the Midterm. There was NO WAY he could honestly earn an 'A' in the course, even if I was very generous. Should a young man be sentenced to death because he can't do math?

So... what do you think I did? And what would you have done?


Well, aint that a corker. If I were in your position, I probably would have made his final exam grade just count for his entire course-grade, so that a 90% (or whatever) on the final would give him a 90% in the class. And tell him to study like his life is on the line. ;)

If he didn't get the A, I'd let him retake it until he did. :p

I think that would be the best way to make an exception for that severe case, while still maintaining academic integrity and such.

[hauteur]

He looked down at the floor. "Sir, I am newly arrived in this country on a provisional visa. I am registered for two summer courses; if I do not maintain at least a 'C' average, I will not be accepted at the University, my visa will be revoked, I will have to go back to my home country of Iran, where I will be immediately be drafted into the military, and will DIE IN THE DESERT in the Iran-Iraq War."

I would ask the Dean of Students to grant an exception and admit him to the school anyway. If he still can't make the grade in the next few courses, there's not much you can do.

[Rei]

It's more important to do it perfectly... by my own standard. Sometimes that could mean not doing as well as everyone else.

[hauteur]

I guess maybe the underlying question that I am asking is about competitiveness and how it is expressed. So:

How competetive do you see yourself?
Do you primarily compete with yourself or with others?

In my mind, that is a key distinction. If I am competing against myself, I could score 100% (or whatever percentage works for you) and not care how many other people got the same percentage or higher. I am happy if I meet the goal I set for myself.

If I am competing with others, getting 100% doesn't mean as much if a lot of other people get 100% as well. It doesn't feel like it is as much of an achievement.

In practice, I would say it's a combination of the two - If I beat everyone and don't make my goal, scoring better than everyone else feels like a hollow victory because I didn't meet my own standards. However, let's say had a goal of 90% and I met it and other people scored higher than I did. This is even worse to me.

So, I guess you could say that I want to score better than everyone else and do it perfectly. I see myself as quite competitive with things I care about.

[Rei]

How competetive do you see yourself?
Do you primarily compete with yourself or with others?

How competitive I am depends entirely on the situation.
If I'm already the best... I'll just improve at my own pace. I will keep an eye on my tail however. If someone is starting to get close, I'll probably work a little harder.
If it is something I am good at, and I'm in close second best, I will give it everything I have and more.
If I am no where near first, I will just settle where I am comfortable... and perhaps avoid comparing myself to others.

I'm not an overly competitive person. I don't compete with other people unless I feel my "status" threatened in some way. Essentially, I compete against myself... I aim to make myself better... I don't aim to make myself better than "so-and-so" or "what's-his-name"

[Mogura]

So... what do you think I did? And what would you have done?

Oooh! A T/F conundrum... I would have made him report to my office on a regular schedule and work with him to ensure that he understood the material well enough to get an 'A' on the final, and then I would have given him a course grade of 'A' for his effort.

In the long run, grades don't mean worth sh*t, but the anal retentive powers that be make it seem that way...

[Karamazov]

Honestly, I suppose I deviate from most INTJs when it comes to perfection in school. I spend most of my free time in the library which is where I derive most of my "education" autodidactically, as opposed to learning what you need to know in a particular trade and getting that degree so you may be able to use it in the work force. In the end, so as long as I am able to keep my grades up relatively well, and even If I would want achieve perfection across the grade scale, unless it is an area of interest, I could care less about being the best where it matters least. If people want to position themselves on their imaginary thrones above all others, while the 'competition' eagerly climb all over each other just to sniff that throne, that's there business.

I'll be in the library.......

[TheLastMohican]

So... what do you think I did? And what would you have done?

I have no idea what you did.

I hope I would not have given him the A. Altering a grade for such a situation is wholly impractical and against principle. There is a reason for the system that would ship him back. Cheating that system makes no sense.

If you try to bring in the moral issue, forget it. There is no certainty that being sent back would kill him. Also, there is a possibility that he would end up saving a number of lives while fighting. There is no way to qualify a moral stance based on saving lives, because there are too many variables. Since that point is moot, you have no valid reason to change the grade. The grade should be left alone to serve its purpose.

[Karamazov]

Yet there was a very high probability of him dying. The war itself was extremely sanguinary (not to mention it was the genesis of the suicide bomber, In what we've come to see today) I doubt most could disavow those moral scruples for the moment and decide to abide stringently to a fallible system, especially in such extreme circumstances. It would be different if it was to avoid compulsory service during peace time but he would have most assuredly died.

[echoi]

I have no idea what you did.

I hope I would not have given him the A. Altering a grade for such a situation is wholly impractical and against principle. There is a reason for the system that would ship him back. Cheating that system makes no sense.

If you try to bring in the moral issue, forget it. There is no certainty that being sent back would kill him. Also, there is a possibility that he would end up saving a number of lives while fighting. There is no way to qualify a moral stance based on saving lives, because there are too many variables. Since that point is moot, you have no valid reason to change the grade. The grade should be left alone to serve its purpose.

Forget all the other variables and uncertainties, you have the chance to potentially save a person's life. To not do so, and to place greater value on some arbitrary system made up of equally arbitrary rules, is something I find difficult to agree with.

[TheLastMohican]

Yet there was a very high probability of him dying. The war itself was extremely sanguinary (not to mention it was the genesis of the suicide bomber, In what we've come to see today) I doubt most could disavow those moral scruples for the moment and decide to abide stringently to a fallible system, especially in such extreme circumstances. It would be different if it was to avoid compulsory service during peace time but he would have most assuredly died.

Forget all the other variables and uncertainties, you have the chance to potentially save a person's life. To not do so, and to place greater value on some arbitrary system made up of equally arbitrary rules, is something I find difficult to agree with.

By keeping him out of the war, you are likely causing the death of other people. Consider that if he killed someone in the war, that person was prevented from going on to kill others.

I repeat, there are too many variables. That fact is what negates any claims of a moral issue. Assigning moral value makes no sense, because there is no clearly good option, and there is no way to know which might be the best.

[echoi]

How can you say this: "I repeat, there are too many variables."

and yet precede it with such a strong categorical statement like this? "By keeping him out of the war, you are likely causing the death of other people. Consider that if he killed someone in the war, that person was prevented from going on to kill others."

The fact is, he could have instead gone on to become an embittered life-long enemy of the United States because of this, declare jihad, and kill thousands of americans.


the overriding factor in this decision, and the only one we can conclude with any certainty in this situation, is that sending him back to Iran greatly increases the likelihood of that kid's death, probably violent.

[Karamazov]

By keeping him out of the war, you are likely causing the death of other people. Consider that if he killed someone in the war, that person was prevented from going on to kill others.

I repeat, there are too many variables. That fact is what negates any claims of a moral issue. Assigning moral value makes no sense, because there is no clearly good option, and there is no way to know which might be the best.

Yes there is. By keeping him out of the war, his life would be spared (including the lives of those he may kill) but all of this is moot. His being there would have no substantial effect on the net loss or gain during that war. A great number of lives would be lost (and were lost) regardless If arrived he to fight or not, discounting the fact he may have ideological differences that would lead him to avoid going all together. I don't think it's as complicated as you make it out to be. Please, list some of these variables you speak of.

P.S.- The Man with No Name. A classy choice.

[TheLastMohican]

How can you say this: "I repeat, there are too many variables."

and yet precede it with such a strong categorical statement like this? "By keeping him out of the war, you are likely causing the death of other people. Consider that if he killed someone in the war, that person was prevented from going on to kill others."

Mistake on my part. It is likely that the person he would kill would have gone on to kill others.


The fact is, he could have instead gone on to become an embittered life-long enemy of the United States because of this, declare jihad, and kill thousands of americans.


He could have. Who knows? Does it matter what he could have done? There is no way to predict it.

the overriding factor in this decision, and the only one we can conclude with any certainty in this situation, is that sending him back to Iran greatly increases the likelihood of that kid's death, probably violent.

How does that justify cheating on the grade? Try explaining the reasoning.

Yes there is. By keeping him out of the war, his life would be spared (including the lives of those he may kill) but all of this is moot. His being there would have no substantial effect on the net loss or gain during that war. A great number of lives would be lost (and were lost) regardless If arrived he to fight or not, discounting the fact he may have ideological differences that would lead him to avoid going all together. I don't think it's as complicated as you make it out to be. Please, list some of these variables you speak of.


His presence in the war could either increase or decrease the total body count. Those who might or might not die depending on his presence might have profoundly affected the lives of others during or after the war. Changing his grade might cause a scandal that shuts down the school and results in 10 more students being sent back, and all being killed.

There are countless equally unlikely scenarios you could invent, some with good results, and some with bad results.

The main point is that changing the grade is an unethical act. It would require extraordinary circumstances to justify. You cannot prove anything extraordinary here, and there is no telling what meddling with the circumstances will result in. The natural order of things is that some people will be sent back. It is pointless and wrong to attempt to thwart that system and push people through. He simply did not belong there.

[Karamazov]

His presence in the war could either increase or decrease the total body count. Those who might or might not die depending on his presence might have profoundly affected the lives of others during or after the war. Changing his grade might cause a scandal that shuts down the school and results in 10 more students being sent back, and all being killed.

Marginally at best. I'm thinking more along the lines of statistics, not individual lives. Again, his being there would make no difference considering the amount of lives lost daily (not to mention the people he would kill, or probably not kill, seeing as he could instantly die before seeing any combat) and for the sake of argument, lets say he's the only student with this predicament and assuming he's not Rambo.

The main point is that changing the grade is an unethical act. It would require extraordinary circumstances to justify. You cannot prove anything extraordinary here, and there is no telling what meddling with the circumstances will result in. The natural order of things is that some people will be sent back. It is pointless and wrong to attempt to thwart that system and push people through. He simply did not belong there.

Basically, it's a matter of priorities. The said reputation of a school by the changing of one grade (which he could easily be made to actually earn, next time around) or him losing his life, potentially killing others in the process. The variables here are very limited and a strict adherence to some established standard with those odds at stake seems ridiculous. It's not right but the alternative is no better.

[catd]

I can't believe this. A grade vs. a life? Hello?!

[Aronnax]

What a fun little dilemma, duty vs morality, I can't wait to see where this ends up.

[TheLastMohican]

Basically, it's a matter of priorities. The said reputation of a school by the changing of one grade (which he could easily be made to actually earn, next time around) or him losing his life, potentially killing others in the process. The variables here are very limited and a strict adherence to some established standard with those odds at stake seems ridiculous. It's not right but the alternative is no better.

This is a question of passive response versus active response. In a normal situation, lying about a grade is wrong. There has to be a very good reason to justify doing it. In this case there is no good reason. It is still just as wrong. Leaving the grade as it should be is not wrong. The issue is not even in the teacher's hands. He has nothing to do with it. He should allow it to progress as it would if he was objective, and things will work as they are meant to. Giving special preference to a certain student because of a possible occurrence that has nothing to do with the teacher makes no sense. Thus far nobody has mentioned how unethical it was of the student to bring it up in the first place. He was already in the wrong for trying to manipulate the teacher into lying for him.

I can't believe this. A grade vs. a life? Hello?!

The grade is definite; the life is a variable. The former should not be decided by the latter. They are separate issues.

What a fun little dilemma, duty vs morality, I can't wait to see where this ends up.

In this case the duty and morality are both on one side. The other side is emotional grab, resulting in a logical fallacy.

[Aronnax]

In this case the duty and morality are both on one side. The other side is emotional grab, resulting in a logical fallacy.

So you'd argue there is no moral decision involved in forcing a man to fight a war he doesn't wish to?

[catd]

The grade is definite; the life is a variable. The former should not be decided by the latter. They are separate issues.

OK, so now you are the student. You would take the C and go to war?

Grades are BS - how can you even consider for a moment that a grade would be more important than a life?





catd added to this post, 3 minutes and 16 seconds later...

So you'd argue there is no moral decision involved in forcing a man to fight a war he doesn't wish to?

Good point. What if he does die in the war? You're responsible if you knowingly make a decision that results in a man having to go to war and then dying.

[azelismia]

I agree with Aronnax, as usual.

I teach, and giving grades is the worst part of the job; I wish there were some way to do away with it, but it is necessary. It's particularly bad when a student gets into a real mess and needs some "special consideration", as in the following case:

I was teaching an integral calculus course at Penn State back in 1981 or 1982... anyway, it was the summer term, and I only had 8 or 10 students.

After class one day, one of my students, a nicely dressed young man with a middle-eastern name, stayed behind.

"Sir, I have to get an 'A' in your class."

I smiled. "I wish all my students felt that way!"

He didn't laugh. "No, sir, you do not understand. I HAVE to get an 'A' in your class."

He was right: I didn't understand. "Why do you HAVE to get an 'A' in my class?"

He looked down at the floor. "Sir, I am newly arrived in this country on a provisional visa. I am registered for two summer courses; if I do not maintain at least a 'C' average, I will not be accepted at the University, my visa will be revoked, I will have to go back to my home country of Iran, where I will be immediately be drafted into the military, and will DIE IN THE DESERT in the Iran-Iraq War."

Wow, I thought, this is one of the best stories I've heard in a long time. "So, why do you need an 'A' in MY class?", I asked.

"Because", he said, "I had to drop the other class, and that counts as an 'F'. If I do not get an 'A' in your class, in three months I'll be dead."

I told him I would consider his situation. I went back to my office and called the Dean of Students to check out his story.

"Everything he told you is true", she said. "Unless he gets that grade, his future is very bleak."

I pulled out the grade book... he got a 'C' on the Midterm. There was NO WAY he could honestly earn an 'A' in the course, even if I was very generous. Should a young man be sentenced to death because he can't do math?

So... what do you think I did? And what would you have done?


Given what we know of you so far, I'd posit that you engaged him in a religious discussion. and it went something like this (of course, we have to get all metaphorical and junk for the exact wording to be relevant)

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off. -- Emo Phillips

Am I right?

[TheLastMohican]

So you'd argue there is no moral decision involved in forcing a man to fight a war he doesn't wish to?

Conscription is another issue. But the government of Iran was doing the conscription, not the teacher.

OK, so now you are the student. You would take the C and go to war?

Presumably. I know that I would not pressure the teacher to lie about my grade in order to avoid going to war. That is quite uncalled for.


Grades are BS - how can you even consider for a moment that a grade would be more important than a life?


This is no question of relative importance. The two things should not be compared.
Rotten things like that happen. The student did not want to go to war, but he was under obligation to do so, according to his government. His grade should depend only on his performance in school. The only connection is the condition of his visa. It is not the teacher's place to interfere with that contract.

Good point. What if he does die in the war? You're responsible if you knowingly make a decision that results in a man having to go to war and then dying.

There is no single target of blame. He would be a casualty of war. You could blame Hussein just as well.

That "decision" is simply a lack of unethical action. It would be the same as if the teacher did not have knowledge of the situation. Things would have progressed as normal. Only after the student pressures the teacher to lie about the grade does any wrongdoing come into play.

[azelismia]

Conscription is another issue. But the government of Iran was doing the conscription, not the teacher.



Presumably. I know that I would not pressure the teacher to lie about my grade in order to avoid going to war. That is quite uncalled for.



This is no question of relative importance. The two things should not be compared.
Rotten things like that happen. The student did not want to go to war, but he was under obligation to do so, according to his government. His grade should depend only on his performance in school. The only connection is the condition of his visa. It is not the teacher's place to interfere with that contract.



There is no single target of blame. He would be a casualty of war. You could blame Hussein just as well.

That "decision" is simply a lack of unethical action. It would be the same as if the teacher did not have knowledge of the situation. Things would have progressed as normal. Only after the student pressures the teacher to lie about the grade does any wrongdoing come into play.

eh, you talk like this but if you were ACTUALLY in the position of deciding I am not so sure you'd be able to stick to these lofty ideals. a grade is only a grade. it's all very subjective. Have you ever heard of monkeysphere?
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.'s_number (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


It's very easy to dismiss others in the vague but when it comes to individuals that you know it's really much harder than that. If it had been me I'd have figured out some way of helping him pass. A grade is just a grade.. it should never be life or death. I certainly am not going to sentence someone to fighting in a war they want nothing to do with.

Of course, truth be known I am nothing but an old softie anyway. I saw a bunny rabbit get hit by a car yesterday. I couldn't run over it again and finish it off. I didn't know what to do. I know what the right thing was and I couldn't do it. tried calling animal control ( yeah I know, I am a fuck up and I suck) but someone else did the right thing. I live in a very expensive neighborhood. I am hoping a vet or doctor found it and put it down easily but it was gone when I went back out there five minutes later. So I know I couldn't send a healthy young lad to fight a war he'd surely die in. an already existing Life is worth more than ideals no matter what kind of life it is. If for no other reason than I wouldn't want someone else to make that sort of decision (one that was arbitrary) involving me or anyone I care about.

[catd]

Rotten things like that happen.

Only if you let them. Personally, I feel you have a moral obligation to "help" whenever you are able.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

There is no single target of blame. He would be a casualty of war. You could blame Hussein just as well..

No single target, no. Yes, Hussein is to blame as well.

That "decision" is simply a lack of unethical action. It would be the same as if the teacher did not have knowledge of the situation..

But he does have knowledge. It's too late. He has a choice to make now. Do I tell the truth about a grade in a class (that is pretty much meaningless in the grand scheme things) and risk a life, or do I lie and save a life.

[Aronnax]

Conscription is another issue. But the government of Iran was doing the conscription, not the teacher.


Yes, but the instructor would still have the power to decide if he stays or goes. If the Professor believes it's unethical to force a man to go to war this decision would be a conflict between his morals and his duty.

Lets say you live in the USSR in 1937 and you overhear your neighbors expressing concern about party members, writers and priests being rounded up and either executed or imprisoned. They're questioning if Stalin is really acting in the best interest of the USSR or if it's just a power grab. This is clearly over the line and you have a duty as a citizen to report them to NKVD. It's very likely they'll be executed or imprisoned for what they said but you wouldn't be the one who executed them, it would be the Government. There also is the chance that they could go free. On the other hand you like you neighbors and "not" telling wouldn't really hurt you or the party.

Like I said, it's an interesting dilemma between morality and duty.

[catd]

Lets say you live in the USSR in 1937 and you overhear your neighbors expressing concern about party members, writers and priests being rounded up and either executed or imprisoned. They're questioning if Stalin is really acting in the best interest of the USSR or if it's just a power grab. This is clearly over the line and you have a duty as a citizen to report them to NKVD. It's very likely they'll be executed or imprisoned for what they said but you wouldn't be the one who executed them, it would be the Government. There also is the chance that they could go free. On the other hand you like you neighbors and "not" telling wouldn't really hurt you or the party.

My friend's Uncle spent 20 years in prison because someone reported him for a comment he made about the communist government. 20 years.

[True Rune]

I'm with the "morality" side here. I would certainly be grateful for the A I wouldn't deserve, I would be in that person's debt, they saved my life. Life > Grades, it's simple. On topic, I had a class last semester where the teacher graded on the curve, but we didn't get our scores, just the letter grade. I got all A's and was wondering if I was the person to get the most questions right or not.. I hope my physics teacher grades on the curve. ><;

[Max T]

So... what do you think I did? And what would you have done?
The kid is certainly lacking motivation to succeed in class- he did not 'have to drop out of the other class'- he chose to. He chose to score a C in midterm. He continues this apathy by holding the teacher responsible for his death. To succumb would be be to perpetuate the kids' negative habit.

And awarding an A grade could cause disillusionment amongst other students and let the teacher be vulnerable to future emotional bargaining. The teacher also cannot change Iraq war policy, nor visa policy, but certainly can impact uni acceptance policy.

And this predicament seems very difficult to solve within the tight confines of "no A-C = deportation".

The above briefly considers the kid, the teacher, the other students and rules/ origins to the problem.

So I would redefine the problem and work with the kid to list options away from "no A-C = deportation". Such options would be:
-create a scholarship for Middle East students with himself being the first,
-make the kid give talks on the Iraq-Iran war and his situation to fellow students in the US state,
-... and generate many, many more options by talking with felllow teacher contacts about innovative reasons for unis to accept students.

The options result in everyone winning:
-requires that the kid (finally) takes control of his life and not blame others (and finds a passion in life),
-does not disillusion his fellow students,
-creates a better learning experience for all and
-capitalises on the teacher's opportunity to be a "mini-Schindler" (sure beats most job remits!) and shows his potential to superiors that could lead to a job rise... and gains a friend for life.

[Monte314]

Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread.

I gave him the grade he earned: a "C".

And the Dean of Students admitted him to the university anyway, so he didn't die. Everybody did "the right thing".

Now, let's get back to "grading on the curve."





Monte314 added to this post, 8 minutes and 5 seconds later...

There is one important aspect about grading on the curve that I don't think has been mentioned: it normalizes the grades in a way that takes the effectiveness of the instruction into account.

I was teaching two classes of a multi-section course at Syracuse University... all instructors in all sections were using the same book,. syllabus, and FINAL EXAM. By curving the grades within each section, students whose instructors were less effective had exactly the same opportunity to make an 'A' (or and 'F'!) as those in sections where the material was taught differently, without having to have a separate grading scale for each class.

This same benefit applies when you have the same instructor teaching in different semesters.





Monte314 added to this post, 1 minutes and 13 seconds later...

Given what we know of you so far, I'd posit that you engaged him in a religious discussion. and it went something like this (of course, we have to get all metaphorical and junk for the exact wording to be relevant)

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off. -- Emo Phillips

Am I right?
No, not this time.

[TheLastMohican]

eh, you talk like this but if you were ACTUALLY in the position of deciding I am not so sure you'd be able to stick to these lofty ideals. a grade is only a grade. it's all very subjective.

That's why I said I hope I would not give him the A. Admittedly I might be somewhat blinded by the situation. Fortunately I can analyze it objectively now, and I will know how to handle such a situation later (as if it wil actually happen to me :undecided:).


Have you ever heard of monkeysphere?
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.'s_number (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


:rolleyes:

It's very easy to dismiss others in the vague but when it comes to individuals that you know it's really much harder than that. If it had been me I'd have figured out some way of helping him pass.

Helping him pass would be fine. Then at least he is doing the work, with prodding. But changing the grade after he has failed is not acceptable.

Of course, truth be known I am nothing but an old softie anyway...

Does this apply to the others who share your position? I'm curious.

Only if you let them. Personally, I feel you have a moral obligation to "help" whenever you are able.

My point is that this situation is one that is over the professor's head. He should not attempt to control it, as it is not his place. Trying to control it only necessitates unethical activities, with very shaky justification.

But he does have knowledge. It's too late. He has a choice to make now. Do I tell the truth about a grade in a class (that is pretty much meaningless in the grand scheme things) and risk a life, or do I lie and save a life.

Keep in mind that the student's life might be very troubled if he is pushed through with a low grade and is completely unprepared for the tougher coursework ahead of him. There is no guarantee that his future professors will give him the same preference.

Yes, but the instructor would still have the power to decide if he stays or goes. If the Professor believes it's unethical to force a man to go to war this decision would be a conflict between his morals and his duty.

Ah, good point. The professor might have general anti-war beliefs that would negate the chances of the student actually being killed.

Still, the decision is only superficially his because of the unusual series of events. The best thing he can do is to do his job honestly, and let the Iranian government do its own. The student apparently was not willing to take up his case with the Iranian government, which is where the real responsibility lies (though the first line of responsibility is the student's).

Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread.


Wow, I pretty much forgot about the original topic. I don't even belong here. It's all your fault! :p

[azelismia]

That's why I said I hope I would not give him the A. Admittedly I might be somewhat blinded by the situation. Fortunately I can analyze it objectively now, and I will know how to handle such a situation later (as if it wil actually happen to me :undecided:).



:rolleyes:



Helping him pass would be fine. Then at least he is doing the work, with prodding. But changing the grade after he has failed is not acceptable.



Does this apply to the others who share your position? I'm curious.




I have no idea if it applies to others. When it comes to life and death decisions I do tend to be more lenient than otherwise. Assuming of course, that the critter in question is innocent of wrong doing. If it's not life or death I am much more hard nosed. But I am an atheist. you only get one chance in my world view. There's no afterlife- No rebirth. you just die. condemning someone to death over a grade is wrong. I think we have extradition policies about that sort of thing though. I would have thought he could claim refuge here. a grade is just such a minor thing in the over all scheme of things. it's not worth someone's life any more than 50 dollars or a designer purse is. Granted, giving someone the grade they earned is optimal. Finding some other way to deal with the situation is optimal. but if it's really a matter where someone is going to have to fight a war they don't agree with and be killed over a grade it's possible they just weren't capable of earning... it doesn't seem balanced.


and Monte, I am really disappointed that you didnt' engage him in a religious argument first. That would have been far more entertaining.

[hauteur]

There is one important aspect about grading on the curve that I don't think has been mentioned: it normalizes the grades in a way that takes the effectiveness of the instruction into account.

I was teaching two classes of a multi-section course at Syracuse University... all instructors in all sections were using the same book,. syllabus, and FINAL EXAM. By curving the grades within each section, students whose instructors were less effective had exactly the same opportunity to make an 'A' (or and 'F'!) as those in sections where the material was taught differently, without having to have a separate grading scale for each class.

This same benefit applies when you have the same instructor teaching in different semesters.


Yes, the particular class that inspired this thread is definately one that should be on the curve. It is completely online with no lecture whatsoever. You get the book, you answer the questions in the book, and you write some essays. The instructor only checks email once per day so, if you have a question, you have at least a 24 hour turn around time. You have to be a little self sufficient to survive in this type of course.

Because the instructor doesn't tell us which questions we missed on our homework, I don't quite know how well I'm really doing. We get a score and an answer key - but the questions are all short answer. There are cases where my answer has been different from the key, but my answers were logical and I could defend them if asked. So, the end result is that I don't know if I missed them or not. I only know that I got 100% on a curved scale and the class average for homework assignments is roughly 92%.

[Monte314]

Azelismia said: "and Monte, I am really disappointed that you didnt' engage him in a religious argument first. That would have been far more entertaining."

Indeed! It certainly would have added an interesting twist to the story. However, I think it would have clearly been unethical.

I do, however, mention God in my lectures if I think it fits and isn't likely to offend anyone. For example, I teach a course in Modeling and Simulation, which has a lot of physics in it. Every once in a while I'll introduce some new concept by saying that it describes "how God decided to handle this stuff." I don't get any more specific than that in class; but I have had students who are Christians ask me for personal advice outside of class... sometimes even after the course has ended.

Azelismia, I do appreciate your candor and energy. It is refreshing.

[jadefalcon]

I stopped believing in "beating everyone else" around the beginning of high school when I found myself. Not that I am implying anything, but I realize that I am imperfect, this world is imperfect, and that if I gave it my best then that is what I could do. I'm not in the effort is the end all be all camp, I challenge myself to do better.

I would be PROUD of that ;D I had a C- in Physics but ended up with a B- due to a curve. Love it- you understand something and are doing extremely well in the course- take it as it is!