Suicide

[JasonM]

Do you think that suicide, at times, is acceptable? I think that when someone is suffering greatly, and there is no hope that they will improve, then we should allow them to take their life. I even believe if it isn't certain that they will suffer for the rest of their life, but that there is little chance that they can be helped in, for example, the next 20 years, then we should allow them to die. I think the goal of life is to be happy, and if this isn't possible, then such a life isn't worth living.

On the other hand, I don't believe that it's okay for just anyone to take their life. If someone is not thinking clearly, then we should do whatever we can to prevent them from killing themselves, as they would be making a mistake.

What do you think?

[Rowan]

Control over your own life is perhaps the most basic freedom; self-ownership is arguably the foundation on which all other rights stem. If you remove autonomy at that level then you effectively remove all autonomy, since every moment alive would be a by-product of coercion. Furthermore, I personally regard the option of suicide as psychologically valuable. As long as I have a choice I am choosing to live and my life is not just a burden haphazardly imposed on me, but a conscious decision.

I think compassion dictates that you must have a very good reason for robbing someone of such a choice. Some forms of temporary insanity might qualify, but I do not think clarity of thought should be, in itself, a factor. A lot of people might argue that anyone (particularly people who are not physically suffering) who wants to commit suicide must therefore lack clarity. I do not believe I should have to persuade you that I am thinking clearly to be allowed to exercise such a basic right.

However, I am aware that pragmatically this basic freedom is unlikely to be permitted by populations still infected with Judeo-Christian morality. So it is more worthwhile pragmatically persuading people to allow for consenting euthanasia and then debate the merits of allowing healthy people this choice. The most persuasive proponent of euthanasia I have encountered is the British philosopher Raymond Tallis; I recommend watching his YouTube videos (part 1 (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) and part 2 (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)).

[zibber]

Well, there's euthanasia and there's suicide. Euthanasia is terrible enough of a choice as it is, let's not burden the terminally ill further by trying to block that. Seems like it's mostly christians against that, where I come from, whole sanctity of life thing. If human life's so sacred, respect other humans enough to let them decide for themselves. As for suicide, that's actually a big philosophical question for me. Way different from euthanasia. A sane, intelligent, perfectly healthy person can ponder suicide, and it seems quite logical. I don't know why choosing to stop would be a mistake, it's kind of a freakish thing for anything in this meaningless universe to be as conscious as we are. If there don't happen to be some things in someone's life to make it worth sitting out for a bit and it seems as if there won't ever be, why the hell not? I have no major qualms with that, other than the emotional impact on others (which would be minimal if there are no meaningful relationships) and the dude that has to clean it up.

[Ool]

Do you think that suicide, at times, is acceptable? I think that when someone is suffering greatly, and there is no hope that they will improve, then we should allow them to take their life. I even believe if it isn't certain that they will suffer for the rest of their life, but that there is little chance that they can be helped in, for example, the next 20 years, then we should allow them to die. I think the goal of life is to be happy, and if this isn't possible, then such a life isn't worth living.

Of course the goal is to be happy, not to live per se, because you'll always live. There is no death because the places where you are dead don't exist for you, the same as you don't exist for them.

But the problem is complicated by the existence of an infinite event space that won't allow us not to exist. And by the fact that we have no idea what happens after we inflict terminal injury on ourselves, i.e. injury severe enough that it is known to have terminated other people's existence from our lives.

What makes it complicated? Dependent probabilities, that's what...

You see, while it is possible for other people to vanish from your life it is never possible for youself to vanish from your own life. You'll always be where you are and you'll never be where you are not, in the most tautological sense of the word.

The upshot of this is: Try to kill yourself and it won't work. You can never lose your own life, because your life is what you are. You can, however, lose everything else, such as limbs, such as an absense of severe pain, such as everything about your environment you've become familiar with. Whatever state you continue to exist in just might be a lot more unpleasant than your present existence.

That's why you should consider very carefully whether you're doing yourself a favor by doing something terminally extreme, such as trying to kill yourself or euthanizing someone. There are, of course, plenty of grim scenarios imaginable in which you can say, "anything is better than this," but the question is, will you be right? Will whatever comes next, if you throw in all your cards and decide to get a totally new hand, really, in all likelihood, be better...?

That is the main issue about suicide that you should consider. Yes, we all have a desire to be happy, and we should all go for the maximum possible happiness. The question is, is suicide ever a way to get there? The answer is, yes, but just how grim would things have to be for it to be the case? Because you're not going to kill yourself. You're just practicing extreme, unproven to work anesthesia or sending yourself on a voyage of no return into the unknown...

[sriv]

People make choices they regret later on. In the case of suicide, it is often during a temporary depression or other emotional state. The choice of death should never be considered; it is a one-way road with no room for movement or improvement. Even terminally ill patients, in rare cases, have been known to recover. IMO the potential happiness of life is infinitely greater than the pain or suffering that comes with it.

[ElstonGunn]

Is self-inflicted, physiological death the only kind of suicide that there is? Is there a non-physical version of suicide, or can you commit suicide on another person? If so, which is the worst?

Bah, I'm just rambling like a loon.

[PRBori]

People make choices they regret later on. In the case of suicide, it is often during a temporary depression or other emotional state. The choice of death should never be considered; it is a one-way road with no room for movement or improvement. Even terminally ill patients, in rare cases, have been known to recover. IMO the potential happiness of life is infinitely greater than the pain or suffering that comes with it.

I agree with you. From the beginning of 2008 there have being 105 suicides in Puerto Rico. Is sad, very sad that people feel they need to take their lifes and sometimes take others lifes along with them.

Kind of remind me of the mexican lady that kill herself and her 5 year old daugher by laying down in front of a train simply because her daugthers father didn't love her or wanted to take care of them.

Suicide is certainly not the answer to problems at all.

[Rowan]

People make choices they regret later on.

And people make choices they don’t regret later on.

In the case of suicide, it is often during a temporary depression or other emotional state.

People are permanently emotional, we are emotional creatures, and who is to say that the depression of someone who commits suicide is temporary – how could you possibly know? Can you cite anything to back up this claim?

The choice of death should never be considered; it is a one-way road with no room for movement or improvement.

People make irreversible decisions all the time and, if death prohibits improvement, it also prohibits deterioration, which is probably why many people choose it.

Even terminally ill patients, in rare cases, have been known to recover.

Which is a good argument for leaving the choice to the patient.

IMO the potential happiness of life is infinitely greater than the pain or suffering that comes with it.

Fine, but IMO it is best to understand that other peoples’ opinions differ and therefore accept their autonomy.

I agree with you. From the beginning of 2008 there have being 105 suicides in Puerto Rico. Is sad, very sad that people feel they need to take their lifes and sometimes take others lifes along with them.

Murder is utterly vile, but, even if some people commit both murder and suicide, is a completely different subject. Of course suicide is usually tragic, but that does not mean it is always the wrong decision.

Suicide is certainly not the answer to problems at all.

Certainly?

[mkay]

Do you think that suicide, at times, is acceptable? I think that when someone is suffering greatly, and there is no hope that they will improve, then we should allow them to take their life. I even believe if it isn't certain that they will suffer for the rest of their life, but that there is little chance that they can be helped in, for example, the next 20 years, then we should allow them to die. I think the goal of life is to be happy, and if this isn't possible, then such a life isn't worth living.

On the other hand, I don't believe that it's okay for just anyone to take their life. If someone is not thinking clearly, then we should do whatever we can to prevent them from killing themselves, as they would be making a mistake.

What do you think?

Jason

If someone doesn't think his life is worth living, who am I to tell him otherwise?

[Motor Jax]

especially if they're convinced

i just don't see how the neurons can get tangled up like that to convince someone to go past that point of no return

[sriv]

And people make choices they don’t regret later on.


Yes, but there is a chance that they regret them.

People are permanently emotional, we are emotional creatures, and who is to say that the depression of someone who commits suicide is temporary – how could you possibly know? Can you cite anything to back up this claim?

Yes, but depression is never permanent. Sooner or later, it causes an imbalance of chemicals in the brain that the person will not be able to tolerate. They commit suicide if they are narrow-minded instead of looking for happiness in other things or making the best out of their situation.

People make irreversible decisions all the time and, if death prohibits improvement, it also prohibits deterioration, which is probably why many people choose it.

Even while deteriorating there is something to gain. An old woman with osteoporosis can still share her wisdom and learn new things. An old man with alzheimer's can still comfort her loved ones with his presence.

Which is a good argument for leaving the choice to the patient.

How?

Fine, but IMO it is best to understand that other peoples’ opinions differ and therefore accept their autonomy.

I do not trust a person in that condition to be in their right mind. I would not give up all hope for the better.

Murder is utterly vile, but, even if some people commit both murder and suicide, is a completely different subject. Of course suicide is usually tragic, but that does not mean it is always the wrong decision.

The only case it is a right decision is to get rid of the dirt in society. Now we have established that there is dirt in society. What else will we establish?

[murkrow]

I can not imagine a situation where I could respect the memory of a suicide victim.
That being said I can't justify forcing my philosophy regarding the value of life on another through removing their choice to kill themselves. The fact that they would be living on without an uncorrupted ability of free choice is horribly unjust.

So I have to say that as bad as suicide is, to force life on the unwilling is worse.

We cannot claim to understand perfectly the mindset of every person who commits suicide. As insulting to our own values as it is, we cannot be absolutely sure that life in all forms is worth living. Aren't we condemning someone as a second class citizen by denying their self-ownership?

[Ool]

People make choices they regret later on. In the case of suicide, it is often during a temporary depression or other emotional state. The choice of death should never be considered; it is a one-way road with no room for movement or improvement. Even terminally ill patients, in rare cases, have been known to recover. IMO the potential happiness of life is infinitely greater than the pain or suffering that comes with it.

Potential happiness don't mean crap. Only real happiness do.

[sriv]

Potential happiness don't mean crap. Only real happiness do.

Potential happiness can be transferred into real happiness at one's choosing. Like me right now --> :)

[Malotis]

"Yes, but depression is never permanent. Sooner or later, it causes an imbalance of chemicals in the brain that the person will not be able to tolerate. They commit suicide if they are narrow-minded instead of looking for happiness in other things or making the best out of their situation."

Depression isn't caused by a chemical balance. I believe this to be a myth which allows people a 'scientific' explanation for what they don't understand.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Have you ever asked yourself how one can measure the amount of seratonin (or another chemical attributing to depression) in one's head and what the average level of seratonin is per person?

[sriv]

Depression isn't caused by a chemical balance. I believe this to be a myth which allows people a 'scientific' explanation for what they don't understand.


Interesting. I am shamed :embarassed:.

But I am supposing it can also be caused by a lack of dopamine, which would be an example of a chemical imbalance. :huh:

[murkrow]

are you saying that depression is never caused by anything apart from chemical imbalance?

couldn't chemical imbalance just be a physical manifestation of depression?

[Rowan]

Yes, but there is a chance that they regret them.

And there is a chance that they don’t.

Yes, but depression is never permanent. Sooner or later, it causes an imbalance of chemicals in the brain that the person will not be able to tolerate. They commit suicide if they are narrow-minded instead of looking for happiness in other things or making the best out of their situation.

PsychadelicPowe answers this quite well.

Even while deteriorating there is something to gain. An old woman with osteoporosis can still share her wisdom and learn new things. An old man with alzheimer's can still comfort her loved ones with his presence.

Possibly, but the key word is ‘can’, which does not imply that they want to; it is a personal choice and I am not going to judge people for making such a difficult decision.

I do not trust a person in that condition to be in their right mind. I would not give up all hope for the better.

So you would force someone to remain alive because of your own personal optimism and conceited belief that they must be mad?

The only case it is a right decision is to get rid of the dirt in society.

I don’t follow this at all; can you clarify what you mean?

[sriv]

Free choice seems to be the only reason you think that suicide should be allowed. Do you have any others?

And there is a chance that they don’t.

The chance they regret the decision is far more important than the chance they do not regret.

Possibly, but the key word is ‘can’, which does not imply that they want to; it is a personal choice and I am not going to judge people for making such a difficult decision.

A personal selfish choice at that.

So you would force someone to remain alive because of your own personal optimism and conceited belief that they must be mad?

Of course I would. Where would humanity be without people like me? ;D

I don’t follow this at all; can you clarify what you mean?

Never mind, I jumped to conclusions.

[mkay]

sriv, when you say, "The chance they regret the decision is far more important than the chance they do not regret," that is your perspective. What makes it OK for you to decide for others? (Not meant to be an attack; I'm asking.)

"A personal selfish choice at that." -- That's subjective.

If you kill yourself, you're not going to be regretting; you'll be dead. If you believe in a heaven, then you're in a better place. If you don't, then game over and no regretting.

[murkrow]

free choice is the only argument for allowing suicide, but you still haven`t countered it.

[mkay]

Not sure whether you're talking to me, but if you are: I don't feel compelled to defend my stance on suicide to you. Just like I don't expect someone against suicide to defend his stance to me. If you don't want to kill yourself, I'm certainly not going to try to make you, haha.

[sriv]

sriv, when you say, "The chance they regret the decision is far more important than the chance they do not regret," that is your perspective. What makes it OK for you to decide for others? (Not meant to be an attack; I'm asking.)

"A personal selfish choice at that." -- That's subjective.

If you kill yourself, you're not going to be regretting; you'll be dead. If you believe in a heaven, then you're in a better place. If you don't, then game over and no regretting.

It's fun debating against freedom on an NT-dominated forum :).

I know it is subjective. How many people make the right decision when they decide to suicide? "It is their decision, there is nothing right or wrong about it." I care about them, therefore my morals are extended upon theirs and I will try to convince them against it.

How does suiciding help anyone anyway?

I meant that if it is possible to regret after on. I don't believe in the afterlife either. I am looking at the potential life that the suicided person may have. Imagine if a person came really close to suiciding. Then was stopped by someone. Chances are that the person will be glad he/she did not suicide. If that person was oppressed by that someone, then the person can do something by attacking his savior possibly getting killed anyway, but still accomplishing something.

[mkay]

Wait a minute, I'm not debating; I don't debate because I think it's pointless. (Now I'm laughing at myself.)

I'm sure there are suicide attempters who are glad they failed. There also are people who keep trying suicide till they succeed. ... All I figure is that I have no right to make those kind of decisions for other people.





mkay added to this post, 3 minutes and 27 seconds later...

Oh, and I think people who kill themselves "help" themselves by ending their pain. The sick ones "help" themselves by controlling how they die, sparing themselves and their loved ones further suffering, expense, etc. At least those seem like "reasonable" explanations to me.

[murkrow]

Not sure whether you're talking to me, but if you are: I don't feel compelled to defend my stance on suicide to you. Just like I don't expect someone against suicide to defend his stance to me. If you don't want to kill yourself, I'm certainly not going to try to make you, haha.

no that was directed to sriv, my bad.

[sriv]

free choice is the only argument for allowing suicide, but you still haven`t countered it.

I counter it with: they can do it if they truly want to, but I would strongly attempt to convince them against it.

Oh, and I think people who kill themselves "help" themselves by ending their pain. The sick ones "help" themselves by controlling how they die, sparing themselves and their loved ones further suffering, expense, etc. At least those seem like "reasonable" explanations to me.

Pain is just a sensation.

I knew the topic of "sparing...suffering, expense" would come up.
I evoke the slippery slope.

[murkrow]

K I agree with you then.

I would try to convince anyone who wanted to commit suicide not to, but in the end it's their decision.

[mkay]

Pain is just a sensation.

I knew the topic of "sparing...suffering, expense" would come up.

Well, you asked, "How does suiciding help anyone anyway?" I'm not saying you or I have to agree with the person killing himself. I'm saying I don't have a right to interfere.

Wanting to live is emotional, too, isn't it? Why does wanting to die have to be emotion-free?

I can see your "side," too, by the way. :) Personally, I don't know if I'd ever reach a point where suicide would seem like a good choice. But if I wanted to do it, I'd do it "right" the first time. If I wanted help, I'd just ask for it, spare the cleanup job of an attempt.

[sriv]

Well, you asked, "How does suiciding help anyone anyway?" I'm not saying you or I have to agree with the person killing himself. I'm saying I don't have a right to interfere.


Would you interfere if you thought that the person was doing it for the wrong or insufficient reasons?

Wanting to live is emotional, too, isn't it? Why does wanting to die have to be emotion-free?

Can you restate that or make it clearer? I don't want to reply awkwardly.

[mkay]

As someone else mentioned on the thread, if it were someone I knew and had a reasonable connection to, I'd probably offer to help (get him help, not help kill him, haha). But ultimately his choice. ... If it's some kind of abstract case, I can't imagine my opinion mattering at all.

The emotional thing was in response to your comment about pain being a sensation. I was thinking about psychological pain mostly.

Anyway, it's not like I'm advocating we hand out suicide kits on street corners. I figure we've all gotta live (or not) the way we think best for ourselves.

[PRBori]

Murder is utterly vile, but, even if some people commit both murder and suicide, is a completely different subject. Of course suicide is usually tragic, but that does not mean it is always the wrong decision.

I don't see it as a different subject for most of the suicidal cases that have happened in the past few years have taken the life of the innocent simply because someone who felt suicidad decided that his life was not enough. I can't even remember how many cases there has being that suicidal fathers have flip and killed their kids and wife before killing themselves. The same goes with the killings at colleges such as VA Tech.

So here is how I see it....

Each individual has the choice to do as they like with their life. I accept that; however, most suicidal individuals take their life mainly for insignificant reasons or because they don't know how to cope with a problem that could be solved. In most instances they tend to take the live of other innocent people because they feel that if the world is not good enough for them, then is not good for their family either. You also have the LOVE suicide where a person kills itself for love, but most of the time that person turns again the other one killing her/him before turning the gun to himself. I also have an issue with the so call "Suicide Bommers" that kill in the name of religion for they are blinded, for killing innocent people is NEVER acceptable in any religion, and yes I'm talking about the so called "MUSLIMS" who do such. An 'Eye for an Eye' leaves the world blind.

With those cases above I have an issue. However, if the person has a terminal dicease, is unable to take care of himself, then I can understand so because IF I was to ever become what's consider a "vegetable" which means someone that cannot do anything, cannot move, cannot take a bath, cannot talk.... then I would prefer that I be assisted into suicide for I wouldn't want other to see me suffer or to suffer because of my state.

For people that just have issues, NO I don't believe suicide is the answer at all for there are always ways to work things out. In addition, killing others for ones suffering is not acceptable, but it happens most of the time and therefore I cannot separate suicide from murder for they tend to be related.


Certainly?

Hmmm... what u meant by the above? In my side I meant there are other ways to deal with stress, pressure, and low self-esteem issues that most of this people tend to have.

[sriv]

As someone else mentioned on the thread, if it were someone I knew and had a reasonable connection to, I'd probably offer to help (get him help, not help kill him, haha). But ultimately his choice. ... If it's some kind of abstract case, I can't imagine my opinion mattering at all.

The emotional thing was in response to your comment about pain being a sensation. I was thinking about psychological pain mostly.

Anyway, it's not like I'm advocating we hand out suicide kits on street corners. I figure we've all gotta live (or not) the way we think best for ourselves.

Ok. I agree; I'm not going to go I.Robot "my logic is undeniable".

Psychological pain can be overcome. It is no reason to lose hope.

I guess suicide is a good idea to get people that are too FJ to kill themselves.

[Rowan]

Each individual has the choice to do as they like with their life.

Here I agree; I think retaining that choice is vital.

I accept that; however, most suicidal individuals take their life mainly for insignificant reasons or because they don't know how to cope with a problem that could be solved.

I don’t see how you can even begin to justify this; even if you could find some statistical study of reasons for suicide how could you claim to know the subjective significance of these problems in individual’s lives? Or the other contributing factors that make life, overall, unbearable? Or how able they are to correct the problem that they face? You are making massive assumptions.

In most instances they tend to take the live of other innocent people because they feel that if the world is not good enough for them, then is not good for their family either.

Firstly, that is a serious claim that needs statistically backing; can you actually show me that there are more murder-suicides than regular suicides? Secondly, clearly murder-suicides are different from simple suicide; I don’t know why you insist on confusing the two. Like you I do not believe that murder-suicide is acceptable, but I do not see how the existence of murder-suicide has any bearing on the right to kill yourself.

You also have the LOVE suicide where a person kills itself for love, but most of the time that person turns again the other one killing her/him before turning the gun to himself.

Another claim that requires more than a simple assertion; what justification do you have to believe that in instances of ‘love suicide’ there is a higher rate of murder-suicide than just regular suicide?

I also have an issue with the so call "Suicide Bommers" that kill in the name of religion for they are blinded, for killing innocent people is NEVER acceptable in any religion, and yes I'm talking about the so called "MUSLIMS" who do such. An 'Eye for an Eye' leaves the world blind.

Again, I also oppose murder-suicide; I have never met anyone who is pro-murder-suicide. As for religiously motivated murder, I don’t care if it is Islamic terrorists killing in the US or Protestant and Catholic terrorists killing in Ireland, it all disgusts me. However, and I can’t stress this enough, someone’s choice to kill themselves and only themselves is completely unrelated to some religious fanatics desire to fly a plane into a large building.

However, if the person has a terminal dicease, is unable to take care of himself, then I can understand so because IF I was to ever become what's consider a "vegetable" which means someone that cannot do anything, cannot move, cannot take a bath, cannot talk.... then I would prefer that I be assisted into suicide for I wouldn't want other to see me suffer or to suffer because of my state.

And I would entirely respect that decision and passionately argue that you should be allowed that comfort.

In addition, killing others for ones suffering is not acceptable

Agreed.

but it happens most of the time and therefore I cannot separate suicide from murder for they tend to be related.

You have not convinced me that it does happen ‘most of the time’, but even if it did murder-suicide, murder and simple suicide are qualitatively different.

Free choice seems to be the only reason you think that suicide should be allowed. Do you have any others?

I think respecting autonomy is a good reason that, so far, has stood up to criticism; why do I need another reason? Pragmatically I think allowing people that choice is more compassionate, but this is inseparably connected to respecting autonomy. If you go to the Raymond Tallis videos I linked to in the first post he gives a reasonable set of reasons for allowing assisted death.

The chance they regret the decision is far more important than the chance they do not regret.

Why?

A personal selfish choice at that.

All choices are personal and I think people are entitled to be somewhat selfish when it comes to their own existence.

I counter it with: they can do it if they truly want to, but I would strongly attempt to convince them against it.

As long as you don’t employ coercive measures I have no problem with you attempting to convince someone not to commit suicide; in fact, I think society as a whole should attempt to help people who are suicidal resolve their problems and make a considered decision. Ultimately, however, the freedom to commit suicide it important.

[Homini Lupus]

In my opinion suicide can be rational, even if it often is not. Suicide in order to end a present pain wich would end by its own (a delusion by example) has (most of the times) no sense since it would mean giving up future for present. If you rational notice that realistically the cost of living (everyday problems, dealing with unpleasant people etc) will never be counterbalaced by benefits (fun, knowledge etc) then suicide becomes a rational choice. Since it's often very difficult to find out what is "realistically possible" a body should be very cautious, but life at all costs is not rational.

[sriv]

I think respecting autonomy is a good reason that, so far, has stood up to criticism; why do I need another reason? Pragmatically I think allowing people that choice is more compassionate, but this is inseparably connected to respecting autonomy. If you go to the Raymond Tallis videos I linked to in the first post he gives a reasonable set of reasons for allowing assisted death.

Suicide should only an option on the very back of minds. If we legalize suicide it will stand as a more acceptable option in the general public. It might even become routine. We'll start to see people that were coerced into "committing suicide" through blackmail or other means. The slippery slope will cause havoc.

Why?

Because the possibility that they will regret their decision happens more often than not. The rational decision for suicide is rare. People that make the wrong choice usually have more repercussions on society than those that make the rational choice. Example: a teenager commits suicide because she has been bullied all her life and has just been jilted. That teenager had economic and personal potential.

All choices are personal and I think people are entitled to be somewhat selfish when it comes to their own existence.

Not all, but I see your point. :undecided:

As long as you don’t employ coercive measures I have no problem with you attempting to convince someone not to commit suicide; in fact, I think society as a whole should attempt to help people who are suicidal resolve their problems and make a considered decision. Ultimately, however, the freedom to commit suicide it important.

If you thought that your close friend or family member was going to commit suicide over a petty affair, would you attempt to convince that person not to? If you were pressed for time, would you stop that person coercively to get him/her to see reason?

Would you stop that person coercively to see if he/she made a rational decision to commit suicide?

Personally, I think suicide should be illegal to make a dam on the slippery slope, but I think suicide should be made an exception to those who can make it rationally. An occurence that sometimes can be a rational suicide is being terminally ill.

Homini Lupus, well said. The line, however, between benefits and drawbacks often gets skewed.

[EsoteriEccentri]

Euthanasia, to me, only has a few drawbacks. One is that older, sick people may feel pressurized into having Euthanasia if it become legal in the United Kingdom, to free up hospitals and because they feel they are a burden. I don't think this is right, but I think it would be hard to prevent some feeling pressurized if Euthanasia became legal.
Another drawback is that you could essentially commit murder if you could forge a paper saying that the victim in question would opt for Euthanasia if they got to a certain level of pain/ if they were less that X% likely to recover.
And then there's the matter of children, who decides for them? I think if there is a special form that adults can sign stating at what stage they would want Euthanasia, then that's okay. But what about children?
The other thing is that our judgment is completely different from what it would be actually in that circumstance. Some people who may completely oppose Euthanasia for themselves - aka they'll keep on living at all costs, may be in great pain and change their mind when it is too late, and they shan't be listened to (particularly if there is brain deterioration involved)
Then others who abhor the thought of dribbling and daily agony may opt for Euthanasia only to realize that the chance of life is worth the pain. There usually a chance, however minute, of recovering.

But on the whole I support it so long as it is the patient's choice.


Suicide is a different matter entirely. You can't really stop a suicidal person killing themselves, usually you don't even know they are planning it. There are family and friends involved and the suicide of a close friend/family member could be considered traumatic. I think, even with extensive counseling there are some people who will never be able to live happy lives, they'll always be suicidal. I think that it should probably be their choice (though whether they are in a fit state to make that choice is a different matter)- and like I said, you can't really stop them. But I think that they should be helped and people should always try to remember that suicide won't effect just them but everyone else too.
I don't really think it's something that someone can come to a drawn conclusion on.

[PRBori]

I'm sure that suicide only is higher, but nevertheless I will continue to emphasized that murder-suicide is increasing as well and cannot be ignored or put aside. A suicidal person tends to kill others. Many of the murder-suicide have being families whether it is the mother killing the children before killing herself, or the father killing the children and mother. Some exceptions apply to disgruntled employees or people who feel others should pay for his pain such as those college and school events where the shooter kill multiple people before killing himself. Below are some articles that provide statistics... I haven't found anything recent, but I'll keep looking.

Characteristics of homicide followed by suicide incidents in multiple states, 2003–04
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Homocide follow by Suicide:Results from the National Violent Death Reporting System
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Homocide follow by Suicide
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The Psychology of Suicide-Murder and the Death Penalty
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PRBori added to this post, 14 minutes and 24 seconds later...

I don’t see how you can even begin to justify this; even if you could find some statistical study of reasons for suicide how could you claim to know the subjective significance of these problems in individual’s lives? Or the other contributing factors that make life, overall, unbearable? Or how able they are to correct the problem that they face? You are making massive assumptions.

Most of the time people kill themselves for financial reasons, for love, because they are mad at someone, because they feel nothing is going their way whether is career wise or other's acceptance, for personal guilt of something they did, for low self-steem issues. All of the above can be solved if they seek help. Again, that's just my view.



Firstly, that is a serious claim that needs statistically backing; can you actually show me that there are more murder-suicides than regular suicides? Secondly, clearly murder-suicides are different from simple suicide; I don’t know why you insist on confusing the two. Like you I do not believe that murder-suicide is acceptable, but I do not see how the existence of murder-suicide has any bearing on the right to kill yourself.

Even if murder-suicides are not higher than regular suicides they are scalating in recent years and shall not be ignored. I have provided some links above.



Another claim that requires more than a simple assertion; what justification do you have to believe that in instances of ‘love suicide’ there is a higher rate of murder-suicide than just regular suicide?

The current trend indicates that most of the murder-suicide are couples who recently divorced, had financial difficulties, or where boyfriend/girlfriend who had some relation problems. I have seen this more and more in recent years.



Again, I also oppose murder-suicide; I have never met anyone who is pro-murder-suicide. As for religiously motivated murder, I don’t care if it is Islamic terrorists killing in the US or Protestant and Catholic terrorists killing in Ireland, it all disgusts me. However, and I can’t stress this enough, someone’s choice to kill themselves and only themselves is completely unrelated to some religious fanatics desire to fly a plane into a large building.

True, religious belief don't really matter here. Sometimes someones choice to kill himself may be based on religious reasons or events. There have being people who have kill themselves in the name of religion becuase they feel it would be best for them to do so. There has being a few cases... I just can't remember. I think there was one in Texas.



And I would entirely respect that decision and passionately argue that you should be allowed that comfort.


Thank You. That decision for such situation I would not mind at all.



You have not convinced me that it does happen ‘most of the time’, but even if it did murder-suicide, murder and simple suicide are qualitatively different.


It's is a growing threat and does warrants further understanding. With today's situation the above will continue to increase. It's sad, but true. Many people will feel the financial crunch and turn against their love ones before turning to themselves. Mainly those who see no other alternative.

[Rowan]

If we legalize suicide it will stand as a more acceptable option in the general public. It might even become routine.

This assertion requires evidence. Why would someone committing suicide even care about general public opinion? Also, many things are legal but not encouraged – I can legally resort to ridicule and verbal (or, rather, written) abuse in an attempt to win this debate, but I doubt it would be seen as acceptable by most members of the INTJ forum.

We'll start to see people that were coerced into "committing suicide" through blackmail or other means.

Obviously that would remain illegal.

The slippery slope will cause havoc.

Your use of the slippery slope argument is not backed by evidence and therefore fallacious.

Because the possibility that they will regret their decision happens more often than not. The rational decision for suicide is rare.

I don’t even see how you could judge whether a suicide is rational without access to someone’s subjective experiences, which is clearly unattainable. Besides, giving people autonomy necessitates that you allow them the freedom to make the wrong choice.

People that make the wrong choice usually have more repercussions on society than those that make the rational choice. Example: a teenager commits suicide because she has been bullied all her life and has just been jilted. That teenager had economic and personal potential.

This is a non-debatable issue of values, but in my opinion individual autonomy is more important than someone’s utilitarian economic worth.

If you thought that your close friend or family member was going to commit suicide over a petty affair, would you attempt to convince that person not to?

Yes.

If you were pressed for time, would you stop that person coercively to get him/her to see reason?

Perhaps, but that wouldn’t make my actions correct, just desperate. What I might do in a situation like that has little bearing on this debate.

I'm sure that suicide only is higher, but nevertheless I will continue to emphasized that murder-suicide is increasing as well and cannot be ignored or put aside.

Of course not; murder-suicide is a serious issue that needs to be tackled as much as is possible – as, in fact, do all instances of murder. However, stopping a murder-suicide and limiting peoples’ freedom to commit suicide are still separate subjects.

Below are some articles that provide statistics... I haven't found anything recent, but I'll keep looking.

Thank-you, I will check them out.

Most of the time people kill themselves for financial reasons, for love, because they are mad at someone, because they feel nothing is going their way whether is career wise or other's acceptance, for personal guilt of something they did, for low self-steem issues. All of the above can be solved if they seek help. Again, that's just my view.

This is all speculative; ultimately you cannot meaningfully talk about the subjective experiences of people who commit suicide; loosing love, a career and suffering guilt and dejection can all be experienced in different ways and I don’t believe anyone is able to judge the significance of such emotions or deem the disturbance and depression solvable.

It's is a growing threat and does warrants further understanding.

I entirely agree, so long as it is treated as something qualitatively different to simple suicide.

[sriv]

This assertion requires evidence. Why would someone committing suicide even care about general public opinion? Also, many things are legal but not encouraged – I can legally resort to ridicule and verbal (or, rather, written) abuse in an attempt to win this debate, but I doubt it would be seen as acceptable by most members of the INTJ forum.

Just some harmless speculation. You're pretty hardcore about this debating thing.

Obviously that would remain illegal.

Who is to know whether the suicide is of his own choice or of anothers?

Your use of the slippery slope argument is not backed by evidence and therefore fallacious.

Ok. :dead:

I don’t even see how you could judge whether a suicide is rational without access to someone’s subjective experiences, which is clearly unattainable. Besides, giving people autonomy necessitates that you allow them the freedom to make the wrong choice.

Where would civilization go if people were allowed to make the wrong choice? Why do you think governments have restricting laws in the first place?

This is a non-debatable issue of values, but in my opinion individual autonomy is more important than someone’s utilitarian economic worth.

Ok.


Perhaps, but that wouldn’t make my actions correct, just desperate. What I might do in a situation like that has little bearing on this debate.

Don't you think that this desperate action is beneficial to the suicider? It gives them time to think about their situation and time can heal wounds. If they still want to, they can go ahead.

[murkrow]

If they still want to, they can go ahead.


Are you saying you think that you would accept it?

[sriv]

Are you saying you think that you would accept it?

By that time they will have gone beyond rational advice and I am not going to waste resources to stop them. It becomes a lost cause.

[Rowan]

You're pretty hardcore about this debating thing.

Pardon the cliché, but if I’m going to do something I may as well do it properly.

Who is to know whether the suicide is of his own choice or of anothers?

People can already subvert the law by secretly coercing another to commit suicide without anyone knowing; the law should try as hard as it can to prevent this, but it is ultimately limited. The point, however, is that legalising suicide does not affect laws on blackmail, harassment, etc.

Where would civilization go if people were allowed to make the wrong choice? Why do you think governments have restricting laws in the first place?

You restrict people so that they don’t violate other people’s rights; so that they don’t make the wrong choice when it comes to another’s autonomy. If you don’t allow anybody to make any choices you consider wrong then you effectively remove all autonomy.

Don't you think that this desperate action is beneficial to the suicider?

It might be or it might not be; in either case it is not my decision to make.

It gives them time to think about their situation and time can heal wounds. If they still want to, they can go ahead.

What if they have already thought about their situation? What if they don’t want to experience another moment of existence? I do respect where you’re coming from; suicide is tragic. However, I respect autonomy and I cannot imagine a more basic freedom than control over your own existence.

[sriv]

Pardon the cliché, but if I’m going to do something I may as well do it properly.

I don't have a problem with it or the cliche. It's all good.

People can already subvert the law by secretly coercing another to commit suicide without anyone knowing; the law should try as hard as it can to prevent this, but it is ultimately limited. The point, however, is that legalising suicide does not affect laws on blackmail, harassment, etc.

Some more speculation: I'm afraid people don't always see suicide through the same mindset. Something being legal gives it a positive connotation however small just as something being illegal gives it a negative connotation however small. These things may become more common for that reason.

You restrict people so that they don’t violate other people’s rights; so that they don’t make the wrong choice when it comes to another’s autonomy. If you don’t allow anybody to make any choices you consider wrong then you effectively remove all autonomy.

Good point. You got me to consider: Is suicide violating one's own rights? That probably isn't possible, but I like it as a thought.

It might be or it might not be; in either case it is not my decision to make.

Ok.

What if they have already thought about their situation? What if they don’t want to experience another moment of existence? I do respect where you’re coming from; suicide is tragic. However, I respect autonomy and I cannot imagine a more basic freedom than control over your own existence.

Alright then. After a great deal of thought, I concede about the legality issues. Autonomy is quite important, but personally, I would restrain someone I cared about from commiting suicide to show him/her rationale and then let him/her make the decision.
That is probably the only place where we differ in opinion.

[Rowan]

Alright then. After a great deal of thought, I concede about the legality issues. Autonomy is quite important, but personally, I would restrain someone I cared about from commiting suicide to show him/her rationale and then let him/her make the decision.
That is probably the only place where we differ in opinion.

I can agree to differ on this point, particularly given the extremity of the hypothetical situation and the fact that, were I in that position, I honestly don’t know whether I would be able to behave in accord with my own values. I cannot, therefore, claim the right to judge another’s actions in such a situation.

[murkrow]

were someone I respected to commit suicide...

christ...

[Beery Swine]

I'd say suicide, whether self-inflicted or assisted, is, or rather should be, a civil right, and therefore should not be allowed the vote of the people. I realize I'm kind of answering questions you didn't ask, but its fun.

I'm both amazed at and in shock of just how libertarian I've become over the past few months. I almost resent my own damn self.

[niffer]

A personal selfish choice at that.

I don't think it matters if I'm "personal" or "selfish" in regards to my own life and existance.





niffer added to this post, 15 minutes and 30 seconds later...

Furthermore, I personally regard the option of suicide as psychologically valuable. As long as I have a choice I am choosing to live and my life is not just a burden haphazardly imposed on me, but a conscious decision.

This is the most important point to me.

Suicide, abortion, euthanesia.

We aren't allowed control over our lives. We aren't even allowed to die in cases where the only reason we're still alive is because of artificial life support. And yet we aren't even allowed to use technologies such as these to have control over our own uterus in cases such as rape. Or at least in many places still.

It's the lives of other people, I don't see why people who aren't for choice give a shit anyway. Based on their own personal morals or values. As if they actually cared about the people who would want to exercise these choices. What will you achieve by stopping people?

[jesse]

If someone wants to end their life, I will not stand in their way because it is up to them to decide to execute this wish. Rowan's first point about personal autonomy being a basic freedom applies here. If the individual who wants to end their own life by their own hand is at peace with the decision, who are we to declare this person has to remain alive and with us?

Their immediate peers might not accept the decision but it is not in their hands. They can try all they want but if someone is in such pain and indifference toward life, they will eventually find a solution to end their life one way or another.

While euthanasia remains outlawed and frowned upon in most jurisdictions, someone somewhere is able to put aside their prejudices and assist someone who does not wish to live any longer. Keeping someone alive against their wishes is outright moronic and inhumane in my view.