3rd graders plot to hurt teacher.

[notoppings]

scaredmonkeys.com/2008/04/02/at-center-elementary

This story has been going around several forums and opinions have varied as to who is responsible for these kids actions. Also what punishment if any should be given to the kids or parents or the school itself. Please take the time to check out the link if you haven't seen it already and express yourself on this topic and school violence in general.

[Motor Jax]

try them for unruly behavior and plotting a murder, jail them until they are the age of 18 with curriculum taught every day so they can finish their education, and after they are out put them on a list of people who could offend the general public until they age 30+

meanwhile, the parents be fined


if i was the teacher, i would sue all of the parents





but that's just me

i believe in discipline

[sriv]

Seperate them, put them through rehabilitation where a boot camp instructor *fixes* them.

[ShaiGar]

I plotted with my cousins to kill my grandfather... we put nails under his tyres, made a "bomb" from his old car battery and put thorns under the steps so he couldn't go to work... he took us out for ice cream

[antisocial one]

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Probably they watch this too many times.

[PRBori]

I will have to blamed the parents for not taking the time to educate the child or pay attention to what he does. Such behavior can only be based on the athmosphere where the child grew up and the type of programs or games the parents allow the child to play.

A normal child who has not being exposed to violence much will not have such mentality. I would send the child away to be rehabilitalized, fine the parents with a lufty sum, and sentence them to jail if they do not agree on getting psychological help for themselves and the child. And yes, I do feel the parents should go through psychological help as well for there has to be a reasons behind the fact that they did not took the appropriate measures for raising the child appropriatdly.

As a mother everything my kids do is important for me to know and I must be part of their life even if is limited do to work. Of course as a single parent things tend to be harder but again, discipline begins at home and it should continue in school. Therefore as parents we must ensure that our kids our going to a reputable school even if it cost more money.

A piece of mind knowing that our kids are taking care off and are learning valuable lessons are worthless in my mind. So paying a high price does not bother me as long as I know my daugher is getting the right education. That said, is all about the parents.

[notoppings]

try them for unruly behavior and plotting a murder, jail them until they are the age of 18 with curriculum taught every day so they can finish their education, and after they are out put them on a list of people who could offend the general public until they age 30+

meanwhile, the parents be fined


if i was the teacher, i would sue all of the parents





but that's just me

i believe in discipline

This pretty much sums it up for me also. I too think the teacher should seek some kind of action against the parents, kids that age are the responsibility of their parents.

[antisocial one]

Sorry people, but I think all of you speak nonsense.
Today parents dont almost at all have influence on their children.

This little monsters are product of entire system not just parents.

[notoppings]

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Probably they watch this too many times.

disturbing.

Parents are responsible. They and others have got to stop blaming society for their bad parenting skills. If it's a matter of outside influence they should take it away like TV or computers even if the parent has to give it up also to remove it from the house completely. People are always looking for a way to not take responsibility for their actions.

[ShaiGar]

In Australia a child can be take away from "abusive parents" where abusive is a parent who actually has the gall to discipline their child. Surprised nothing like that has happened here.

[Aronnax]

This is one of the "externalized" costs of our system. We work too much and don't spend enough enough time raising our children. It's disturbing, sad and is going to keep happening unless we change our priorities.

I'm sure it'll get lots of media attention, just like every other tragedy involving young violence. People will be outraged, some will demand heavy punishment, others mercy and Congress might even rush through some poorly thought out law that doesn't address the problem and further impinges out liberty. Then we'll move on to the latest news about some celebrity in rehab and forget all about it until it happens again.

[Motor Jax]

Sorry people, but I think all of you speak nonsense.
Today parents dont almost at all have influence on their children.

This little monsters are product of entire system not just parents.

i have seen kids grow up fine because they learned outside of the school system in that they were home-schooled. the mom stayed home to teach her children, and i found this helpful in that they knew what their children were learning and what they were exposed to. that mom was a stay-at-home mom who spent everyday with her kids.

dad was the money maker, and they were saving a lot more than i thought anyone would save

they also didn't have tv, and only listened to radio stations that were nonviolent and nonjudgemental

it was a pastor, his wife, and four kids


and they showed me what a strong family was made of

(of course, it was after i had already went through 2 divorces)

[antisocial one]

My point was that sistem is not giving enought time for parenthood.

And I said that it is NOT JUST blame of the parents, but they play part it this for sure.

[Vortex]

Quick guys! Lets go find a scapegoat to protect the children!!

In this thread, we have:

"The System" - Points for ambiguity and 1984 impressions.
"The Parents" - An oldie but goodie.
"Youtube Videos" - A creative take on the "video-games did it"! Props for not having any evidence the children even could access youtube, let alone the video that was linked.
"Controversy and Godlessness!" - Well, that pastor only let his kids listen to NPR, and they turned out "fine" (props for not providing definitions or clarifications). Clearly, the heathens of modern society are to blame.


Solutions to the above enumerated problems:

"18 years of prison!" - Yes, lets institutionalize them and let Jose the carjacker teach them some new life skills.
"Laws! Protect Us!" - When in doubt, legislate.
"Fines!" - If only those mothers weren't so damn terrible, they woudn't be paying us money now.
"Rehabilitation!" - Yes, because foster care will provide them with the love and security they clearly need. Or perhaps this was aimed at institutionalization in a psychiatric hospital. I suppose both would be acceptable.



------

My heavy use of sarcasm is required. There is no rational discourse here. The linked article is from a site called scaredmonkeys. Half the text on the page is a copy-pasta of the AP article it links below, but with more sensationalist adjectives.

Not only are events like this an extreme abnormality (theres a reason why they call it news, kids), but I haven't read any statements regarding their state of mind. All we have are common classroom supplies, and a "plot". We don't know their capability or intent to go through with any of this.

"but wait Vortex! They're arrested! Clearly it was serious enough to get the police involved!". A compelling argument - if schools weren't bastions of unimaginable stupidity and despotism. Police have been called in to haul kids away for going "bang bang" with their chicken nuggets. Whats next, french fries!? Think of the children!

[Aronnax]

Steel handcuffs and steak knives are now common classroom supplies?

[Vortex]

Way to ignore the entirety of my post. But I'll play with your nitpick.

Steak knives are now rare? Please show me a kitchen without a set. $5 say those "handcuffs" are the child toy handcuffs with the safety catch on the side.

Would you prefer if I said "classroom or easily accessible home" supplies? I'm sure that would play a significant change in my arguments.

[ShaiGar]

Not only are events like this an extreme abnormality (theres a reason why they call it news, kids), but I haven't read any statements regarding their state of mind. All we have are common classroom supplies, and a "plot". We don't know their capability or intent to go through with any of this.

I know, that's why I posted this:

I plotted with my cousins to kill my grandfather... we put nails under his tyres, made a "bomb" from his old car battery and put thorns under the steps so he couldn't go to work... he took us out for ice cream

[Aronnax]

I got the point of your post, I intentionally chose that error to see if you were interesting in talking. The fact that there's a kitchen knife instead of plastic classroom scissors in the collection of tools demonstrates forethought, so yes, that would change the arguement. However, my interest here was never this particular group of children.

I would be one of "the system" folks. Vague, possibly, but it shouldn't be terribly difficult to read between the line since I also said we're not spending enough time raising our own kids. We work too much and we keep getting these "extreme abnormalities" like this incident and school shootings. If you want to discuss whether or not there's a correlation there you're welcome to.

I also was the only one who mentioned creating a law and if you read my first post it wasn't a solution, it was a statement about a possible outcome. Congress loves to rush though bad legislation on the heels of an emotional event involving children and I was pretty clear about it.

Here's the local news article (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) if you wanted to see something outside of the scared monkey post, this is where I got my information from since I'm a bit skeptical from new pasted on a random blog.

[Vortex]

I got the point of your post, I intentionally chose that error to see if you were interesting in talking. The fact that there's a kitchen knife instead of plastic classroom scissors in the collection of tools demonstrates forethought, so yes, that would change the arguement. However, my interest here was never this particular group of children.

I would be one of "the system" folks. Vague, possibly, but it shouldn't be terribly difficult to read between the line since I also said we're not spending enough time raising our own kids. We work too much and we keep getting these "extreme abnormalities" like this incident and school shootings. If you want to discuss whether or not there's a correlation there you're welcome to.

I also was the only one who mentioned creating a law and if you read my first post it wasn't a solution, it was a statement about a possible outcome. Congress loves to rush though bad legislation on the heels of an emotional event involving children and I was pretty clear about it.

Here's the local news article (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) if you wanted to see something outside of the scared monkey post, this is where I got my information from since I'm a bit skeptical from new pasted on a random blog.

It shoudn't be hard to read between the lines in "classroom objects" and readily obtainable objects ;)

A kitchen knife doesn't show forethought, at least not towards the end of murder. I can just as easily say that kid was scared shitless, had no actual intent to use it, but the thrill of sneaking it out of home and into school with his friends was the actual motivator (whether he was consciously aware of this is irrelevant). Kids are stupid - they lack the experiences or risk behavior analysis capabilities of adults.

Without performing an indepth staticstal analysis, I can't say whether incidents like this are becoming more common. I will say that reporting of incidents like this are becoming more common. The media of today isn't the media of fifty years ago. I abhor statements like "this didn't use to happen". It probably did. Society has a short term and selective memory.

Hell, my dad used to be able to walk around town with his friends carrying small air rifles. Wave to the sheriff, take a shot at birds, nobody cared. Small town Indiana - nobody gives a shit. Do that today and you'll wind up in prison. Whats changed? Not the action, but the perception of the action. This is what common thought and the media fails to address.

I'd also say that if "the system" is at fault, then legislation is one plausible way to solve it. Yes, its a loose link, but that seems to be just fine in this thread anyways. I recognize you (and ShaiGar, though unrelated) didn't necessarily advocate these positions - my sarcasm had no quotes. It was a collective throwdown because this conversation has been very, very annoying.

Finally -

I got the point of your post, I intentionally chose that error to see if you were interesting in talking.


I don't care whether you find me interesting. Purposefully making an irrelevant argument is pointless. If you address the main argument, you'll quickly find out from the response whether I'm worth replying to. If you do what you did, you risk derailing the entire thread over semantics that have no bearing on actual content. :)

[Aronnax]

A kitchen knife doesn't show forethought, at least not towards the end of murder. I can just as easily say that kid was scared shitless, had no actual intent to use it, but the thrill of sneaking it out of home and into school with his friends was the actual motivator (whether he was consciously aware of this is irrelevant). Kids are stupid - they lack the experiences or risk behavior analysis capabilities of adults.

I'm not out to convict them, that's for a jury to decide. I was stating that the act of bringing something that would function as a deadly weapon is a lot more incriminating that arming themselves with pencils. Kids can do dumb things but there are also kids in Africa about the same age that are the primary provider for their younger siblings because AIDs killed their parents. I really hope it was all a dumb game and the kids go free but who knows...


Without performing an indepth staticstal analysis, I can't say whether incidents like this are becoming more common. I will say that reporting of incidents like this are becoming more common. The media of today isn't the media of fifty years ago. I abhor statements like "this didn't use to happen". It probably did. Society has a short term and selective memory.

We're pretty good at remembering certain things, like when a bunch of kids are shot at school. There wasn't a 24 hour news network but we certainly had newspapers and archives. There are a few recorded school massacres from "back then": the 1927 Bath school disaster or the 1966 UT Massacre are both very tragic but both murders were grown men. If you look at a time line and exclude the protesters vs police/national guard shootings there are 5 school shootings before 1980 and 40 after 1980.

I hate citing wikipedia but I really need to get to bed:

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I've looked at the numbers before and these are reasonably consistent with them. I don't have any of my old research notes with useful citations handy.


Hell, my dad used to be able to walk around town with his friends carrying small air rifles. Wave to the sheriff, take a shot at birds, nobody cared. Small town Indiana - nobody gives a shit. Do that today and you'll wind up in prison. Whats changed? Not the action, but the perception of the action. This is what common thought and the media fails to address.

I agree, I think it has a lot to do with how we're trying to legislate our way out of social problems. You can teach a kid to use good sense but you can't legislate it.



I don't care whether you find me interesting. Purposefully making an irrelevant argument is pointless. If you address the main argument, you'll quickly find out from the response whether I'm worth replying to. If you do what you did, you risk derailing the entire thread over semantics that have no bearing on actual content. :)

I actually used the wrong suffix, I meant "interested" as in "I wanted to see if you were interested in talking.". Before I went to the trouble of making a lengthy post I wanted to see if you were making a sarcastic post and moving on or if you actually wanted to talk. If the topic went awry I'd bring it back.

[Beery Swine]

On the surface it seems like a lack of parenting combined with poor parental examples, but the story didn't go into too much detail, so I can only semi(?) speculate. I'd tentatively say the parents lost all rights to the kids. Put them in some kind of reform foster home or something. Do we even have something like that here? Seems like every government institution is pure $#!+ in this country right now. Those kids were almost certainly suffering from the ole "group think" pitfall.

[Claptonian]

I think the most interesting aspect of the article is how intelligent the kids were. I wouldn't expect third graders to be that organized; delegating tasks, thinking about covering the windows and cleaning up afterwards, etc.

The next generation could be pretty competent if they get over the whole "killing people" thing.

[sriv]

The next generation could be pretty competent if they get over the whole "killing people" thing.

You haven't read The Dumbest Generation, it's a fun one.

[phantasma]

Sorry people, but I think all of you speak nonsense.
Today parents dont almost at all have influence on their children.

This little monsters are product of entire system not just parents.

The lack of parental influence IS the problem. It is a part of the system's problems. Even then, normal children left to their own devices don't behave like that. Also, it's the parents' job to raise their children as they see fit, not leave them at the mercy of the "system". They can and should have control.

[Motor Jax]

i just read this thread again, and i realized that Vortex only stated questions but no solutions to what he would do in this situation

but that's just me