PDA

View Full Version : The Dragon in My Garage


Moriarty
05-08-2008, 03:10 AM
Here's an interesting and thought-provoking essay written by the late and great Sagan. I'm posting it more for the benefit of the spiritual types here, because it more or less sums up my form of skepticism. I'm assuming it also speaks for others here who think the way I think, so it may shed some light into our apparently stubborn attitudes about some things.

If any spiritual types here have a similar work that they think conveys their attitude as clearly as this work conveys mine, I invite them to post it as well for the purpose of generating greater understanding between the two styles of thought.

The Dragon In My Garage
by Carl Sagan

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle -- but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so. The only thing you've really learned from my insistence that there's a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You'd wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I've seriously underestimated human fallibility. Imagine that, despite none of the tests being successful, you wish to be scrupulously open-minded. So you don't outright reject the notion that there's a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. You merely put it on hold. Present evidence is strongly against it, but if a new body of data emerge you're prepared to examine it and see if it convinces you. Surely it's unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative -- merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of "not proved."

Imagine that things had gone otherwise. The dragon is invisible, all right, but footprints are being made in the flour as you watch. Your infrared detector reads off-scale. The spray paint reveals a jagged crest bobbing in the air before you. No matter how skeptical you might have been about the existence of dragons -- to say nothing about invisible ones -- you must now acknowledge that there's something here, and that in a preliminary way it's consistent with an invisible, fire-breathing dragon.

Now another scenario: Suppose it's not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you're pretty sure don't know each other, all tell you that they have dragons in their garages -- but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we're disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I'd rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren't myths at all.

Gratifyingly, some dragon-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they're never made when a skeptic is looking. An alternative explanation presents itself. On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another dragon enthusiast shows up with a burnt finger and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the dragon's fiery breath. But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other ways to burn fingers besides the breath of invisible dragons. Such "evidence" -- no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it -- is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.

Antares
05-08-2008, 03:53 PM
But dragons don't explain why this world came to be. The reason so many people believe in God is that they think there is no other rational explanation.

sriv
05-08-2008, 04:06 PM
But dragons don't explain why this world came to be. The reason so many people believe in God is that they think there is no other rational explanation.

It is a metaphor. It is a possibility that dragons created the world the same way it is a possibility that God created the world. God may be a dragon or God may be a purple unicorn.

zhangxy
05-08-2008, 04:09 PM
I actually saw this before. It's actually pretty true.

HackerX
05-08-2008, 04:16 PM
Oh it's a fair point.

Surely it's unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative -- merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of "not proved."

Is also important. Failure to disprove should give no extra weight to the believers argument, and failure to prove should give no extra weight to the non believers.

Thoughts though, if the dragon has no effect beyond existing, of what consequence is it to believe or not believe in it's existence?

And why must your reality be mine?

errrzarrr
05-08-2008, 04:30 PM
But dragons don't explain why this world came to be. The reason so many people believe in God is that they think there is no other rational explanation.

It is a metaphor. It is a possibility that dragons created the world the same way it is a possibility that God created the world. God may be a dragon or God may be a purple unicorn.

Is a metaphor. The Dragon in the garage is the same idea as the Invisible Pink Unicorn, The Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Teacup in the outter space.

dsday
05-08-2008, 04:30 PM
Isn't this just basically the "invisible cat in a chair" argument all over again (with maybe broader implications)?

errrzarrr
05-08-2008, 04:34 PM
haven't heard about that before, but yes, seems like it is.

blueback
05-09-2008, 08:42 PM
Thoughts though, if the dragon has no effect beyond existing, of what consequence is it to believe or not believe in it's existence?

And why must your reality be mine?

The problem isn't what people think, it's what people do. If someone is convinced that not only does their completely unprovable dragon exist, but that it wants them to do things, and that they should do those things, then we have a problem.

If the President told me to do something (I'm in the military) I'd do it (as long as it wasn't illegal or immoral). I say that because the President is real. I can touch him, I can hear him, he leaves footprints, he can be photographed, etc. The fewer of those things I can list the less likely I am to follow his orders. If I saw a video in which he told me to do something, I might do it. If I someone who didn't outrank me told me second hand that the Prez. ordered me to do something, I would require more proof. You see? The less proof you have that the orders are coming from a qualified source the less you should trust them.

It doesn't matter what reality people choose to live in. What matters is whether or not they are screwing with other people's reality. People can have invisible friends, that's fine. What I don't like is when people start doing what their invisible friend tells them to do. That is called crazy.

darkkodiak
05-09-2008, 10:04 PM
The problem isn't what people think, it's what people do. If someone is convinced that not only does their completely unprovable dragon exist, but that it wants them to do things, and that they should do those things, then we have a problem.

If the President told me to do something (I'm in the military) I'd do it (as long as it wasn't illegal or immoral). I say that because the President is real. I can touch him, I can hear him, he leaves footprints, he can be photographed, etc. The fewer of those things I can list the less likely I am to follow his orders. If I saw a video in which he told me to do something, I might do it. If I someone who didn't outrank me told me second hand that the Prez. ordered me to do something, I would require more proof. You see? The less proof you have that the orders are coming from a qualified source the less you should trust them.

It doesn't matter what reality people choose to live in. What matters is whether or not they are screwing with other people's reality. People can have invisible friends, that's fine. What I don't like is when people start doing what their invisible friend tells them to do. That is called crazy.

Ah, I pretty much have the same view as you. For me, if someone said that someone else said to do this, I will ALWAYS doubt that message and will check up on it. If the person giving orders directly tells me to do something I will for the same reasons you listed. Ah, on a last note, Thanks for Serving(As you can see I will thank anyone in the service. I actually mean that since I do have family members past and present serve in the military, so it's not a meaningless thank you).

Ool
05-10-2008, 04:34 AM
If the President told me to do something (I'm in the military) I'd do it (as long as it wasn't illegal or immoral). I say that because the President is real. I can touch him, I can hear him, he leaves footprints, he can be photographed, etc. The fewer of those things I can list the less likely I am to follow his orders. If I saw a video in which he told me to do something, I might do it. If I someone who didn't outrank me told me second hand that the Prez. ordered me to do something, I would require more proof. You see? The less proof you have that the orders are coming from a qualified source the less you should trust them.

Do you think that your orders come from a qualified source even assuming they came from the president…?

And, no, I don’t expect you to answer that…





Ool added to this post, 8 minutes and 23 seconds later...

Do you think that your orders come from a qualified source even assuming they came from the president…?

But there is, of course, a corollary to that, involving the idea of a God and worshipers’ jumping to the conclusion that he must be your friend.

Even if I had proof that there is a being of immense power out there manipulating my environment—although, of course, not omnipotent power since that is a) empirically unprovable and b) logically impossible—it wouldn’t make me jump to the conclusion that that being has my best interests at heart or that it ought to naturally wield any authority over me aside from the power it can exert…





Ool added to this post, 67 minutes and 4 seconds later...

Tim Kreider’s recent Artist’s Statement fits rather well into this thread’s musings about invisible dragons:

With the glut of fabulous and intriguing misinformation available online, there are so many antifactoids clamoring for our attention […] that the few humble, genuine facts in there are likely to get trampled and ignored, like the one genuinely excellent girl in a bar full of waxed and silicone skanks.

Link: Welcome to the Land of “It Could Be True” (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)