Why don't women like Chess?

[Pragmatist]

Not that ZERO women are interested in chess, but in my experience the ratio of men to women in chess tournaments and such are about 10:1 or something like that.

Now sports I can understand. Men are the ones with the big egos who have to smash some other guy to prove to ourselves that our dad's were wrong and we AREN'T a loser. But why not something like chess? It's intellectual, nobody gets hurt, games don't have to take very long you can play blitz or 10 minute games... so what's the deal? Same thing with video games. Now I'm running into more and more females who are gamers, and that's exciting, but still overall the ratio is something like 10:1. I don't understand the disconnect there. Especially since it always seems like women are looking for equal proving grounds where they can show up men. Chess and video games have no gender bias as far as your potential. It seems perfect.

---------- Post added 09-11-2010 at 07:53 AM ----------

Dungeons and Dragons too..... I didn't know any girls growing up who played D&D. I'm starting to rant here so I'm going to stop, but you get the point... none of these things should outright have any disproportionate ratios, yet men seem to be the ones primarily interested.

[Ben1220]

"women are looking for equal proving grounds where they can show up men. "
They are? Maybe this is true for some with low self esteem who need to spend time doing anything compeditive simply to stroke their own ego... but for the majority, I would have thought they'd have better things to do then to be compeditive just to "prove themselves"

I often get the feeling that women are less compeditive in general than men are, or at least are compeditive about different things in general... Maybe this is why they aren't drawn to compeditive games like chess and online video games in such large numbers?

Also, social and cultural pressures probably have a role as well.

[Alrah]

I love chess and board games in general. I used to be a gymnast. I've played D&D. Video games have to have a strong strategy element to interest me. If it's just 'kill the orc and get a sore thumb!' then I'm out. :D

Traditionally - it's something that dad's didn't teach their daughters and mothers didn't know how so...

That's changing these days. Both my daughters can play chess too. And I agree with you - there's no gender inherent reason why women don't game.

With girls - if you introduce a fantasy scenario to the game it's better when they're learning. With my eldest we'd play a silly version 'Opera chess', where each move was accompanied by a dramatic parody solo. ;-)

With women - well, depends on the type of woman. It's true that a lot of women lack confidence when it comes to strategy games. You could fake a mope and hint until she volunteers to play with you. You could be direct, sit her down, diss her dad and say 'I'm gonna teach you what he shouda'. I'm sure INTJ's can come up with appropriate ways to balance the inequality. :-)

[masterpeach]

I used to play RL role plays (The Dark Eye - the German version of D&D) and I used to be a member of a chess club when younger. I think strategy games are an NT/NF passion (just like maths and natural sciences) - there are just not that many NT/NF women out there. (Both of my INFJ friends play chess very well.)

Edit: My dad didn't teach me chess. I learned it from a book (and TV) and later the club.

[Vulkan]

I used to play RL role plays (The Dark Eye - the German version of D&D) and I used to be a member of a chess club when younger. I think strategy games are an NT passion (just like maths and natural sciences) - there are just not that many NT women out there.

Edit: My dad didn't teach me chess. I learned it from a book (and TV) and later the club.

I wouldn't say it's NT only, I know an INFP girl that's loved chess since she was on the team in High School, and she's VERY good at it.

[masterpeach]

I wouldn't say it's NT only, I know an INFP girl that's loved chess since she was on the team in High School, and she's VERY good at it.

Yes, you are right - I just edited my post. I think it's the intuition part that makes you successful at it.

[ktgrey]

Maybe because it's agonizing to play for 4 hours and then lose. I think egos get destroyed more easily in chess than in other games even because there's no team, there's no random factor, and you spend alot of time per game. When you blunder away a win after a long game its quite depressing.

[Pragmatist]

I suppose you can't explain why someone else doesn't do something that you do. Maybe you're right MP, maybe it is an iNtuitive thing. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here. Perhaps I should go ask a Sensory forum. Still, if anyone else has any theories I'm interested.

I mean it's not as though all my guy friends like chess, in fact my best friend doesn't even like chess and he's an INTJ, but again it's not so much the individual-to-individual basis that makes me wonder. It's the group statistics.

By the way, Ben, I wasn't implying female athletes are only competing to prove they are as good as men. I meant that there is a fair amount of female competitors who dislike the idea that men think they are better and they would be happy to prove them wrong if they could but in 90% of sports there is no cross-gender competition on a regular basis. And then of course in games like Football there is no way for women to win because there aren't enough physically large women to create a sufficient talent pool to make it fair. That's why I'd expect all the females who DO have something to prove to flock to competitions like pool, chess, etc. Games of skill that don't require any specific physical attributes and are completely even playing fields.

[NoahAddle]

1. The most physically attractive and outgoing males don't tend to play chess. So, as a girl you'll be spending your time with socially awkward nerds.
2. There is no social status to be gained from being a female chess player. In fact, it may make you seem abnormal or weird to other people.
3. Chess is a game that is hard to appreciate until you have a minimum requisite level of skill. This is different from music, dance, or physical sports where even a novice can quickly understand the aesthetic beauty.

[masterpeach]

It could also be a cultural reason. Playing (to win) in general does not match the traditional role of females probably. Chess also has sort of a "nerd nimbus", maybe that's why women still shy away from it.
Wasn't chess originally played in Arabia?

I talked to a co-worker of mine who studied mathematics - he loves strategy games, but said that chess was also a lot about practice and learning by heart. (Once you know a constellation, you know how to play it if you spent some time analyzing famous competitions.)

[floramacivor]

I'm an INTJ female and I don't play chess. I don't play competitive sports, either. Putting that much time into something that's just a game seems pointless when there are so many practical, useful things to learn, I guess. And I don't know if I could ever see three or more moves ahead. Maybe I have a weak Ni.

[Alrah]

Edit: My dad didn't teach me chess. I learned it from a book (and TV) and later the club.

Me too. I learned it from a book and taught my younger brother. :D

[Artio]

I guess I'm unqualified to answer as I do like chess, but not that much that I'd go to tournaments, and I grew up playing Pac-Man and Bouder Dash. And yes, we did use a stone as a pillow.

[Pragmatist]

1. The most physically attractive and outgoing males don't tend to play chess. So, as a girl you'll be spending your time with socially awkward nerds.
2. There is no social status to be gained from being a female chess player. In fact, it may make you seem abnormal or weird to other people.
3. Chess is a game that is hard to appreciate until you have a minimum requisite level of skill. This is different from music, dance, or physical sports where even a novice can quickly understand the aesthetic beauty.

Those are all very good observations, and probably true. However, it would seem that they should only apply to the majority of women. The majority of men don't play chess or D&D or other nerdy things either. However, that still doesn't explain the disparity between the number of male and female nerds, especially in the practice/playing of some sort of game.

---------- Post added 09-11-2010 at 09:24 AM ----------

It could also be a cultural reason. Playing (to win) in general does not match the traditional role of females probably. Chess also has sort of a "nerd nimbus", maybe that's why women still shy away from it.
Wasn't chess originally played in Arabia?

I talked to a co-worker of mine who studied mathematics - he loves strategy games, but said that chess was also a lot about practice and learning by heart. (Once you know a constellation, you know how to play it if you spent some time analyzing famous competitions.)

I believe it started in India.

What is a "constellation"? Is that the same as an opening position? Is that what Germans call it? Neat.

The thing I like about chess is that it can be applied to most of life. When you break it down into principles, you're trying to make the moves that give you the most advantages and least disadvantages. You calculate instead of just leaping before you look, and you have to always be aware of the fact that while you may not have an exact purpose for a move your actions now directly effect your options in the future.

---------- Post added 09-11-2010 at 09:32 AM ----------

I'm an INTJ female and I don't play chess. I don't play competitive sports, either. Putting that much time into something that's just a game seems pointless when there are so many practical, useful things to learn, I guess. And I don't know if I could ever see three or more moves ahead. Maybe I have a weak Ni.

See, this is the mindset I don't understand. "Just a game." What are we all living for if not to try and have fun with whatever time we have? I would say games are closer to the purpose of life than working or most other things we take seriously. Besides, games benefit us in such diverse ways. Not only do you get to have fun but you get to challenge your mind, sometimes your body, as well as learn practical skills. As I gave in the example above in response to masterpeach, a lot of what you learn from games applies more to real life than what you learn in 'real life'. For example, in school they taught me NOTHING. Yet, from games and competition I have learned that all you really need is to keep your mind and body sharp and have an unbreakable will. I've also learned critical thinking, strategic planning, teamwork, leadership, patience, etc.

For the record, generally speaking, not even grand masters see 3 moves ahead. Truth is you play be principle not by foresight. Like "I'm going to place my knight here because he's closer to the center of the board and that means later he'll have more options to choose from of who to attack and how." Even when I play computers and watch their thinking as lines of moves, you can see that they evaluate a set of moves they predict you will make and I almost never make those moves. They're always re-thinking.

[rara avis]

I had a passing interest in learning chess when I was a teenager, but not enough to teach myself. I had the impression it was something that would suit me to know. My mom doesn't play, though, and my dad knows how, but never would sit still long enough to teach me when I asked.

I don't know how much of this is personality type and how much is just me, but I suspect that chess would be like most games anyway, for me: not interesting enough to overcome my... sensitivity to the stakes of competition. And no one likes to play with me because of that; once I'm really challenged, I'm not "playing" anymore, and things can get unpleasant for everyone. Not fun.

I have a hard time being patient with games I'm not pretty well assured of winning- which makes learning most games difficult for me. Character flaw. Either I get bored or I get irritated before I get good. I play Trivial Pursuit because I win, or at least am good, to start with.

I hate card games, and most board games, most of all because they're stultifying. Bored games. I'm always more interested in aspects that are outside the rules & concerns of the game itself. My mind would rather wander away. The game itself is always missing a certain depth and complexity that makes things worthwhile... I'm more interested in Through the Looking Glass than in just moving dull plastic pieces around a flat board according to arbitrary rules.

[NoahAddle]

Maybe another way to look at is through the lens of statistics. If you accept the idea that chess is the quintessential INTJ game (because a disproportionate number of chess masters are INTJ), then you can look at the numbers in the following way:

INTJ Males naturally outnumber INTJ Females by a ratio of 3:1 or comprise 75% of the INTJ population. To get to 90% male like you observe, it wouldn't be a stretch to include cultural factors that discourage women from participating.

[Pragmatist]

Maybe another way to look at is through the lens of statistics. If you accept the idea that chess is the quintessential INTJ game (because a disproportionate number of chess masters are INTJ), then you can look at the numbers in the following way:

INTJ Males naturally outnumber INTJ Females by a ratio of 3:1 or comprise 75% of the INTJ population. To get to 90% male like you observe, it wouldn't be a stretch to include cultural factors that discourage women from participating.

That is a fantastic way of looking at it! The question then is, why are a disproportionate amount of men INTJ? :) But that's a bit off topic and probably too complex to answer.

---------- Post added 09-11-2010 at 10:06 AM ----------

I had a passing interest in learning chess when I was a teenager, but not enough to teach myself. I had the impression it was something that would suit me to know. My mom doesn't play, though, and my dad knows how, but never would sit still long enough to teach me when I asked.

I don't know how much of this is personality type and how much is just me, but I suspect that chess would be like most games anyway, for me: not interesting enough to overcome my... sensitivity to the stakes of competition. And no one likes to play with me because of that; once I'm really challenged, I'm not "playing" anymore, and things can get unpleasant for everyone. Not fun.

I have a hard time being patient with games I'm not pretty well assured of winning- which makes learning most games difficult for me. Character flaw. Either I get bored or I get irritated before I get good. I play Trivial Pursuit because I win, or at least am good, to start with.

I hate card games, and most board games, most of all because they're stultifying. Bored games. I'm always more interested in aspects that are outside the rules & concerns of the game itself. My mind would rather wander away. The game itself is always missing a certain depth and complexity that makes things worthwhile... I'm more interested in Through the Looking Glass than in just moving dull plastic pieces around a flat board according to arbitrary rules.

Actually, it might be an NT thing because we take life so damn seriously we feel like competition is the end of the world. Myself and my best friend (INTJ) also happen to be like that for most of our life. He still is a bit but I'm very much getting past it. I'm learning that losing is part of winning and the faster you lose the faster you get to win, so you can't hold back.

[Silverity]

Your question is really "why don't women like chess tournaments". There are plenty of women who play chess and D&D. Every gaming event I've been to for both of those has been female dominated.

My humble observation is it depends on the reason for the event: is it competition or social. Women seem more drawn to the social and fun aspect of the games rather than the competition. I played in a couple competitions for gaming and I found it lifeless. You go in, beat someone (or lose) and you leave. Yawn. But social events you're with your friends, there is food and drink, laughter, etc, I find it much more appealing. Maybe other women are more like me?

[Pragmatist]

Your question is really "why don't women like chess tournaments". There are plenty of women who play chess and D&D. Every gaming event I've been to for both of those has been female dominated.

My humble observation is it depends on the reason for the event: is it competition or social. Women seem more drawn to the social and fun aspect of the games rather than the competition. I played in a couple competitions for gaming and I found it lifeless. You go in, beat someone (or lose) and you leave. Yawn. But social events you're with your friends, there is food and drink, laughter, etc, I find it much more appealing. Maybe other women are more like me?

Define "plenty of women" :)

Actually, I'm not talking about tournaments. I've only been in one online chess tournament. When I go into online chess rooms to find games, or in the two cases I went to actual clubs ( hated both experiences ) there were few or no females. It seems you had a different experience though. So perhaps I should be asking "Do females like chess and D&D?" Maybe we should find some statistics somewhere. Or do a poll. TO THE INTERNETSSSS!!! -batman music-

---------- Post added 09-11-2010 at 10:20 AM ----------

That does make a lot of sense by the way, that women would be more attracted to the social aspects and men the competitive. But why do you suppose that is? Is it because men are raised to believe they have to prove themselves and women are raised to believe otherwise?

[Silverity]

Over all gaming in Canada is about 50-50 now. I don't know the break down per game. For the record, there are women who pretend they are men online in order to be treated equally, so how do you know the players you're with are actually men? Are there webcams and voice chat?

Women are socialized to work together, to get along, and men are socialized to be dominant leaders. (Western society) To me it's kind of a no brainer that we would have a natural inclination to games where we can have fun as opposed to strictly beat one another.

EDIT: We might also want to look at differences between online and offline gaming. I don't play chess online, I play it on a chess board. Same with backgammon and D&D. With people in front of me that I can eat food with =P The gaming events I go to are all in person.

[Pragmatist]

Over all gaming in Canada is about 50-50 now. I don't know the break down per game. For the record, there are women who pretend they are men online in order to be treated equally, so how do you know the players you're with are actually men? Are there webcams and voice chat?

Women are socialized to work together, to get along, and men are socialized to be dominant leaders. (Western society) To me it's kind of a no brainer that we would have a natural inclination to games where we can have fun as opposed to strictly beat one another.

EDIT: We might also want to look at differences between online and offline gaming. I don't play chess online, I play it on a chess board. Same with backgammon and D&D. With people in front of me that I can eat food with =P The gaming events I go to are all in person.

Where do you get the 50/50 stats from?

Ha ha, REALLY? I can see that, but it's funny to me because there are a ton of guys ( a lot of them of questionable sexuality ) who pretend to be females in order to get special attention and assistance from lonely gamer boys who dream of having an elvish girlfriend. :) I won't deny, there were times when I got some sweet gear and a few free dungeon runs from telling someone I was a girl. I'm not proud of it but... well.. yeah I am a little. :D

You're most likely right, that seems to be the case anyway, but I still don't get WHY women are socialized that way? Is it just left over tradition from when women were nothing but trophies to show around when they weren't pregnant, cooking or taking care of children? Why shouldn't women also be encouraged to be competitive? Statistics show that women ask for and receive less money when starting a new position than men. They also statistically offer more and receive less for a used car than men. I believe a lot of this has to do with the nervousness that comes from lack of competition. They are more easily intimidated, it would see, and don't know their own value.

Also an interesting point. I would assume women would game more online because they'd have to take it more seriously to go to an event and girls don't seem to take games as seriously. However, by your description, it seems the opposite. Females prefer live events.

I have to go for now but if I get the chance I'd like to see if I can find any polls, or create one.

[freeeekyyy]

Not that ZERO women are interested in chess, but in my experience the ratio of men to women in chess tournaments and such are about 10:1 or something like that.

Now sports I can understand. Men are the ones with the big egos who have to smash some other guy to prove to ourselves that our dad's were wrong and we AREN'T a loser. But why not something like chess? It's intellectual, nobody gets hurt, games don't have to take very long you can play blitz or 10 minute games... so what's the deal? Same thing with video games. Now I'm running into more and more females who are gamers, and that's exciting, but still overall the ratio is something like 10:1. I don't understand the disconnect there. Especially since it always seems like women are looking for equal proving grounds where they can show up men. Chess and video games have no gender bias as far as your potential. It seems perfect.

Personally, I don't see much difference between competing on a football field and a chessboard. You're looking at this too concretely. They're basically the same thing.

[Silverity]

The stats are from a gaming convention I attended :) I think, at least in Canada, it's more acceptable to be a gamer (you don't lose social status over it) and so you have more women openly playing.

The attention and free stuff bit gets old very quickly. Especially when those lovely white knights end up asking for sex, for romance advice, or treating you like you're their mother.

Western society is still controlled by men, why would guys want to give up their power to women? If you have power and resources you want to retain them, not give them away. And if women are docile little creatures that are socialized to take care of their husbands and not take more than their share of food and money... isn't that convenient? This is a whole other thread though, and I believe has been discussed at length across the forums.

In terms of competition, I'd hazard a guess that women are more drawn to competition in teams. Sports and other team games where you get a mix of social and competition. I'm not sure about this though.

[Haildancer]

I love chess, I simply have no time for, nor do I have interest in tournaments. My time is already allocated.

[INTJewel]

I like chess but I don't have the killer instinct to win. Risk, too. I just sit there, building up a huge defensive army that I can't handle and always, always lose.

[Amphorian]

I play the chess now and then!

Am I the only female that likes competition for the sake of competition (I have written about my competitive nature quite often in my blog)? Well not tournaments, but on a fun friendly level between a few individuals. XP

I went to a card game tournament before, and also competed through the Latin club and I got to say I did not enjoy such. Too many people (large crowds). *grumbles*

Oh wait, I'm an ISTP and we're competitive by nature.. nvm. :p

Also why isn't the title, "Why don't most women like to play the game of Chess?"

[Rationality]

Chess just seems like a waste of time. For so much effort I'd rather do something more productive or exciting. I've tried chess and also a game called Go, but I couldn't get interested and I never won. Sitting quietly and concentrating for hours isn't my idea of fun. I lack patience, get bored easily, and hate losing.

I'm not a gamer either, I know I'd be terrible at them with my slow reflexes. It would take me a long time just to figure out how to play them. Typical games don't interest me. I'm more interested in relaxation and excellent graphics (a bit surreal is a plus) and complex worlds rather than repeatedly killing things or cliche fantasy.

[GouldFan]

I play go. I used to go to tournaments where I'd sometimes be the only woman to participate. 10:1 ain't all that bad. :laugh:

[Pragmatist]

Chess just seems like a waste of time. For so much effort I'd rather do something more productive or exciting. I've tried chess and also a game called Go, but I couldn't get interested and I never won. Sitting quietly and concentrating for hours isn't my idea of fun. I lack patience, get bored easily, and hate losing.

I'm not a gamer either, I know I'd be terrible at them with my slow reflexes. It would take me a long time just to figure out how to play them. Typical games don't interest me. I'm more interested in relaxation and excellent graphics (a bit surreal is a plus) and complex worlds rather than repeatedly killing things or cliche fantasy.

I have ADHD, you think I concentrate for hours? I play 20 minute games or sometimes blitz which is less than 10.

---------- Post added 09-11-2010 at 03:41 PM ----------

I play go. I used to go to tournaments where I'd sometimes be the only woman to participate. 10:1 ain't all that bad. :laugh:

Well there's another one with a 10:1 experience. How did you do in the tournament?

[GouldFan]

Well there's another one with a 10:1 experience. How did you do in the tournament?
I'm saying when I was the only woman, it was more like 1:35 and 1:80, so 1:10 for chess isn't too bad. ;D There were women spectators, usually SO of someone participating.

[Hjordis]

I play go. I used to go to tournaments where I'd sometimes be the only woman to participate. 10:1 ain't all that bad. :laugh:
I've been meaning to take up go. So it's not like these sorts of games don't appeal to me, but for some reason I never had an interest in chess. I can't say why, or what the difference is that makes one appealing and the other not. I think the main thing is the age I first heard about them. I might very well be interested in chess now, except that I first had experience with it as a child, and back then I had very different interests. That said, i really don't have time for any of this right now.

I play video games too. I know a lot of women who do.

[FengXian]

I don't like chess because I don't know how to play and it seems very boring...and my dad is a chess geek so it's a put off really.

[PRBori]

I love chess, haven't found anyone that like it or had the time lately, but I used to play it with an uncle all the time as a child. Those were times to remember, I really enjoy the time I had with him playing chess.

[Mullanaphy]

I do have to say, women have slowly been working their way into the chess world. Going to tournaments now since starting tournament play in 1994, there are a lot more females now than then. Which personally I think is a good thing although there is a persisting stereotype that women play drawish\defensive chess which from personal experience is usually true (there have definitely been exceptions though).

Back in the mid 90s when I started it was still a very nerd crowd when it came to chess clubs and high school teams. Seems to still retain a nerd element however it has a more main stream flow of players too. Which is probably whats letting females feel more welcomed to join.

Just my theories\observations at least.

[Firebrand]

Women tend to be more Tribal in behavior than competitive (Territorial and Aggressive).

Western society is still controlled by men, why would guys want to give up their power to women? If you have power and resources you want to retain them, not give them away. And if women are docile little creatures that are socialized to take care of their husbands and not take more than their share of food and money... isn't that convenient?

That's not why. See above.

[Sawa Hinuyo]

Actually, I've been meaning to learn how to play the game, for quite a while.
I find the rules a bit... unfriendly.

[sircockburn]

I'm obsessed with chess. Unfortunately, in my case, your speculation holds true. Only guys will play with me, and again, only the "white and nerdy" guys. (In other words, the NTs) lol. The girls won't, even if I offer to teach them (and some even know how - well, the moves of the pieces anyway). They just whine that it's "too hard".

This one ESTJ guy friend of mine said something like: "Who the FUCK plays chess anymore? It's just pushing little chunks of wood around. It's for manginas who wish they were fuckin' Caesar."

:suspicious: He's crazy.















I'd love to bang Caesar.

[Vulkan]

If I want to be Caesar I play Europa Barbarorum. ;)

[katrin]

I was peeking at this thread when I was at the library and looked up and--not 20 feet away from me--I saw a nationally-ranked teenage female chess goddess. So I went over and asked her if she had any idea why fewer women play chess than men.

She said she wasn't sure but thought that most girls her age seem to prefer to be socializing. She also didn't know her MBTI type which was too bad. I'm curious what it would be.

As for me, I always test as an intuitive but have no head for strategy at all. Zip, zero, zilch. :(

[Booko]

Dungeons and Dragons too..... I didn't know any girls growing up who played D&D. I'm starting to rant here so I'm going to stop, but you get the point... none of these things should outright have any disproportionate ratios, yet men seem to be the ones primarily interested.

Well, my daughter and I both saw the title of this and went, "Well, wth were we at chess club last Friday afternoon then?" :)

Oh, I also have played D&D since the "basic" version was what's available...my daughter was playing last Saturday night with her bro's friends.

The place you'll really find nearly no women is wargaming. But I like that too, so I guess I'm just weird.

I'm not sure why so few women play chess. I've wondered over the years if it's because we might prefer cards better, that being more social really. Or perhaps it's because in general men's brains are more wired for such "spatial" sorts of endeavors. Or maybe it just isn't perceived as something normal for women to be doing.

Women don't ride motorcycles much either, though really they are better suited for that, with our lower center of gravity and all. ;)

---------- Post added 09-13-2010 at 12:07 AM ----------

Maybe because it's agonizing to play for 4 hours and then lose.

If it's taking 4 hours to play a game more learning would be useful. If either or both opponents drag their feet on decisions, get a clock. Problem fixed.

The college chess club I go to occasionally is only 2 hours. Most people manage a game an hour at least. Some of the newer players will take longer, of course.

---------- Post added 09-13-2010 at 12:10 AM ----------

1. The most physically attractive and outgoing males don't tend to play chess. So, as a girl you'll be spending your time with socially awkward nerds.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? I don't care what my opponent looks like any more than Federer cares what his opponent in tennis looks like.

2. There is no social status to be gained from being a female chess player. In fact, it may make you seem abnormal or weird to other people.


Yeah, 'cause I choose all my hobbies according to the social status they give me...

3. Chess is a game that is hard to appreciate until you have a minimum requisite level of skill. This is different from music, dance, or physical sports where even a novice can quickly understand the aesthetic beauty.

And this has what to do with women? Is it somehow difficult for our wee brains to get that minimum level of skill, compared to men? Oh btw, last time I checked, more women were dancers.

[DarkestApathy]

I LOVE board games and card games, and for some time I've been wanting to learn to play chess, but I always end up doing something else and get too busy to actually learn, a month ago I bought a chess board game but haven't used it once :( I'm thinking it'll eventually happen, lol, after I finish learning Japanese and how to play guitar among other stuff *sighs*

[Reanne]

i like chess. I like analysing, as well as the strategy. I don't mind losing the game, I learn from my opponent :-)

[Booko]

i like chess. I like analysing, as well as the strategy. I don't mind losing the game, I learn from my opponent :-)

Exactly! I don't play chess out of competitiveness. For me it's brain exercise, which is what I call fun.

I don't think I'd care for tournament play. I love bridge too, but bridge tournaments are way too fussy for me to want to bother. I like "friendly" games.

That doesn't mean I don't play to win, I just don't go ballistic if I don't.

[Pragmatist]

What is it you ladies don't like about competition?

[Kricket]

I would love to learn chess properly. In my Russian language class during high school I would try to play, but the Russian exchange student could beat me in 2-3 moves every time. Discouraging. The boards/pieces are quite beautiful to me and I love the history of the game.

Tournaments for any sport or hobby put me off. I approach most endeavors as a happy experiment... just an intellectual/physical exercise. Then I come head to head with people who will be upset if they don't win, and I find it hard to understand. So much more comfortable to play with friends and analyze my performance in the privacy of my own mind.

[Pragmatist]

Do you think it's possible that men want to be competitive because they grow up feeling like nobody believes in them, and women want to be social because they grow up feeling like nobody values them?

[sircockburn]

What is it you ladies don't like about competition?

I think women fear competition (I don't) because they're afraid that they'll lose and it'll prove that they're not as intelligent/strong/fast/quick as they thought.

[Deliberator]

I don't like it because I have to wait so damn long for the other person to move. Tooooo slooooow...

There's also a part of me that just doesn't feel like thinking about it. Cuz it's just a game you see. I like to spend my brain power on stuff that's applicable to life.

---------- Post added 09-13-2010 at 08:19 PM ----------

What is it you ladies don't like about competition?

When I was younger I disliked competition because the risk of feeling really bad for losing was too great and outweighed the thrill of possibly winning. Not sure why.

Since adolescence I've become more of a Rational, less of a feeler, less emotional, and definitely less uncomfortable with competition. I guess it's hormones.

[Zsych]

Probably related to differences in personal priorities, and the differences in the natural talents of the sexes.

[Apocynum]

I think there are a number of factors, many which are nature/anthropological in origin. I very much agree with the interest in social activities. It's perhaps not so much that ladies don't like chess, there's just other things that they like more. Boys also like domination and revel in the win, whereas girls, I think, prefer manipulation/deterrence and tend to be sensitive about making the other person feel bad about losing.

From personal experience however, there's another barrier in the learning of it. I wanted to learn chess from a fairly young age - only I couldn't find anyone to play at it with. There was an "Ew, A Guurl" factor from the boys at that age. I had the same problem with an interest in basketball. The boys didn't want to play with a 'guurl' and the girls weren't interested. You can't improve at either without playing against someone; I got good at shooting baskets, but when I finally got to play with people it all fell apart since I wasn't used to shooting with someone trying to stop me.

By the time we were all old enough for most of the gender reluctance to go away, I was too far behind in experience. The boys weren't interested now because I was too much the novice and no challenge; and I felt a little the same way, too outmatched to learn much.

I've also played RPGs. I got fed up with the males I was playing with because they tended to 'change the rules'. For instance, my first D&D game, I had a magic user with a very basic whip. After a couple really lucky rolls when I did some serious damage with the whip, the DM insisted that a magic user couldn't have a whip and took it away (he'd helped me make the character in the first place). The next time I got into playing RPGs, a superhero game in college, the second gaming night, the GM brought in a villain character custom tailored to target every one of my character's weaknesses. I also find it very boring when the only strategy used to "kill the monster" is full out frontal assault, an approach commonly used by guys well into college age. If the point is just rolling dice and doing math, I've got better things to do.

My favorite RPG group (I was in my mid-20s) barely used the game structure/stats and it was very much strategy and teamwork. I had a real talent for crapping up the GM's well laid plans in the most unexpected ways.

[Pragmatist]

I think there are a number of factors, many which are nature/anthropological in origin. I very much agree with the interest in social activities. It's perhaps not so much that ladies don't like chess, there's just other things that they like more. Boys also like domination and revel in the win, whereas girls, I think, prefer manipulation/deterrence and tend to be sensitive about making the other person feel bad about losing.

From personal experience however, there's another barrier in the learning of it. I wanted to learn chess from a fairly young age - only I couldn't find anyone to play at it with. There was an "Ew, A Guurl" factor from the boys at that age. I had the same problem with an interest in basketball. The boys didn't want to play with a 'guurl' and the girls weren't interested. You can't improve at either without playing against someone; I got good at shooting baskets, but when I finally got to play with people it all fell apart since I wasn't used to shooting with someone trying to stop me.

By the time we were all old enough for most of the gender reluctance to go away, I was too far behind in experience. The boys weren't interested now because I was too much the novice and no challenge; and I felt a little the same way, too outmatched to learn much.

I've also played RPGs. I got fed up with the males I was playing with because they tended to 'change the rules'. For instance, my first D&D game, I had a magic user with a very basic whip. After a couple really lucky rolls when I did some serious damage with the whip, the DM insisted that a magic user couldn't have a whip and took it away (he'd helped me make the character in the first place). The next time I got into playing RPGs, a superhero game in college, the second gaming night, the GM brought in a villain character custom tailored to target every one of my character's weaknesses. I also find it very boring when the only strategy used to "kill the monster" is full out frontal assault, an approach commonly used by guys well into college age. If the point is just rolling dice and doing math, I've got better things to do.

My favorite RPG group (I was in my mid-20s) barely used the game structure/stats and it was very much strategy and teamwork. I had a real talent for crapping up the GM's well laid plans in the most unexpected ways.

Sounds like you've experienced a lot of real assholes. I apologize on behalf of my gender. I'm sorry that so many of us can't handle the company of a female without turning into children. Perhaps one possible factor in deterring girls from participating is the rudeness and awkwardness of the male players. Though my experience has always been that men in those situations, especially nerds, are overly friendly in hoping to win the girl over. Obviously that is not always the case.

[Apocynum]

Sounds like you've experienced a lot of real assholes. I apologize on behalf of my gender. I'm sorry that so many of us can't handle the company of a female without turning into children. Perhaps one possible factor in deterring girls from participating is the rudeness and awkwardness of the male players. Though my experience has always been that men in those situations, especially nerds, are overly friendly in hoping to win the girl over. Obviously that is not always the case.

No need to apologize - I don't think the crappy game mastering was a gender aimed...just bad DM/GM, though I may have attributed it to typical male maneuvering. It didn't do much, though, to encourage me to seek out other groups. Not that I knew much about how to go about doing that. I am an INTJ as well, so it's not quite in my nature to go seeking group activities. ;)

And I have had some good experiences. 'Risk' often being the center of it. I was well outmatched with the group I played it with in college, so my main tact was 'maximum carnage' - I almost always took someone (good player) out of the game with me.

What I have fun with these days is, having an insight to the typical immature male gaming strategy, I can still outplay both of my nephews on a regular basis (one's a mid-teen the other early 20's). They're rather predictable. Hm, perhaps that is also part of it - predictable is boring if you don't get a big high from the domination of winning (as boys do), which in turn makes playing in the first place less interesting (for girls).(?)

[Firebrand]

What is it you ladies don't like about competition?

Historically it just hasn't been the best means to get their needs met. Modern climate has changed this somewhat though.

[darynthe]

I am not bad at it.
However it bores me to tears. I think my attention span is not good enough for keeping me on.

Yeah, maybe the problem is I don't care about winning. I am usually more interested in solving problems and when they are solved I am not longer interested. Solving questions can be done also making a experiment fail or losing a game in this case.