Receiving and Giving

[Jezebel]

I'm curious how you guys feel about giving, receiving, and owing people.

[hr]
There's a story that brings this up, but I'm not looking for advice here and I don't just want this to be a discussion about my situation....

A few months ago, one of my coworkers caught me off guard and bought my lunch. I didn't think it was that big of a deal at the time and planned on paying her back next time. Problem was, she refused the offer. Not only that, but after she found out what foods I liked, she would pick things up for me and bring them back to the office without asking. Every time I tried to give her money or offer to buy her something in return, she refused.

Yesterday I was going out to get food and offered to pick something up for her since she was too busy to leave the office. She gave me money for her share which I took (knowing she wouldn't allow me to just pay for it), but I paid for everything and returned the money to her with her food. It was a strange feeling, like I finally had some kind of success in balancing our relationship. She came back later and tried to give me the money anyway, but I refused to take it.

This little ritual we have going just seems bizarre to me. I have talked to her and bluntly told her that I prefer to be 'even' and don't need her to buy me things. So why would someone be so insistent on giving despite this?

[Firelie]

That is strange behavior, but I know what you mean. *I usually deal with people who refuse to "even things out" by slipping the money to them without them noticing (ie: slip it in their desk drawer when they're not there, tuck it in their coat pocket, etc.). *It's a good way to balance things out without the other person getting offended about their "gift" being "returned". *I do this to my mom all the time...but then, she's the type that forgets if she's put something somewhere, so she makes it ridiculously easy.

Sorry, I don't have an explanation why...just my partial solution.

[rwyatt365]

I personally think that this is a means – conscious, or subconscious – for people to indebt you to them. For some, they think of it as "being nice" or "doing you a favor" but the real motivation is to own you in some way. Somewhere, whether it be in the front or back of their mind, they have bought you with a gift or a meal and now you "owe them".

Your efforts to re-purchase yourself are rebuffed because for you to do so is for you to have bought your freedom – you are no longer owned. ("I just bought me a brand-new 'Jezebel' and she has the nerve to want to leave me?! Never, I tell you, never!!") To me, this is the same possessive behavior that makes imbalanced men lock their wives in the basement, but on a much subtler level. I'm naturally suspicious of anyone that does me a favor AND refuses to let me pay them back. :scared:

[r21left]

I don't like to be beholden to anyone, anytime. I just can't bear the thought that I won't be able to speak my mind and say the unvarnished truth.

[Max T]

Interesting to hear how Guido interprets this. rwyatt365's explanation is very plausible.

Giving: I need to give more- perhaps all INTJs do, drawing upon the compliments thread as an analogy (don't give enough compliments).
Receiving: Yes, can feel suspicious about gifts unless from close ones.
Owing: yep- really dislike having debts of material value ($) with others, possibly because the debt is so quantifiable (tangible). "emotional debts"/ little favours can be repaid in your own time and way.

[Rei]

Has she found out about something that possibly triggered pity? Or maybe she's preparing to ask you for a huge favour. ;)
I can't even begin to imagine anything else that might cause someone to be so forcefully nice.

I hate owing people, so generally I never borrow anything.
I've gotten used to my friends paying for meals/chipping in when I come short sometimes though. I just pay for the next meal or something; they know better than to refuse.

Giving? Okay, let me make this simple. I'm a university student, my balance has been negative - and continuing towards negative infinity - since I've become a university student. My friends and I have a silent consensus to not buy presents anymore. However, I do regularly give to certain charitable organizations; usually DWB, WSPCA, and WWF.

[Jezebel]

I personally think that this is a means – conscious, or subconscious – for people to indebt you to them. For some, they think of it as "being nice" or "doing you a favor" but the real motivation is to own you in some way. Somewhere, whether it be in the front or back of their mind, they have bought you with a gift or a meal and now you "owe them".

Your efforts to re-purchase yourself are rebuffed because for you to do so is for you to have bought your freedom – you are no longer owned. ("I just bought me a brand-new 'Jezebel' and she has the nerve to want to leave me?! Never, I tell you, never!!") To me, this is the same possessive behavior that makes imbalanced men lock their wives in the basement, but on a much subtler level. I'm naturally suspicious of anyone that does me a favor AND refuses to let me pay them back. *:scared:


It's a cynical view, but I think this is the very reason it bugs me so much. When I bought her lunch yesterday, my feeling of relief didn’t come from a sense that I was making her happy by finally getting a chance to return the favors. It was very much a feeling that I was making progress toward lifting a burden she had placed on me and regained some of my freedom.

People like this place themselves in a position where they could be taken advantage of. We don't really owe them anything and it's their own fault if they never get anything in return. So why don't we? Morals? Future avoidance of drama? A desire to only be responsible for ourselves? Or would some of you take advantage of having a person who insists on always giving?

[qwerty]

It's strange isn't it. You give things yourself - e.g. this forum - and ask nothing in return. I do this allot I will give people what I can and not expect a return, like charity - I will always clean out the change in my wallet when I walk past some salvation army collectors.

The thing is, if people want to repay you it feels weird. Accepting 'handouts' has always been hard for me. So I guess what is proberly going through her mind is something like this:
"I am above you and you need help" therefore she will buy you lunch. The motivation for this being above you is generally related to herself, do you remind her of herself at that age? Do you remind her of her daughter?

When I give, I give because I'm reminded of myself - I have never been homeless but I would like to know that people would care if I was. I am not usually depressed or down or need cheering up, but when I do get that way it's nice to know that there are people there that care. I am poor and usually will go home for lunch rather than going to the bar with my friends and as a result when I have money from a contract and someone is short I will gladly pay because I know how it feels.

It feels weird when you receive these 'handouts' because it means that someone sees you're not in control of your life. Good thing is that it prove people do care, bad thing is that they see you that way. I guess you learn to accept it and repay the 'favor' by doing something she may need help with e.g. talk to her and let her open up, pick at her problems like no-one else will (in a good way, hearing yes to everything is annoying) and once that is done she will be able to move on.

[hopscotch]

The cynic in me says that people give and demand nothing because they want some measure of control over you. I hate indebtedness for this reason; I can never tell when someone is power tripping or rubbing my nose in the fact that I don't have a lot of money and they do. Pride certainly factors into the situation, too. I like maintaining my independence, and when people constantly give when they know I can't reciprocate, I find this condescending and get irritated.

I try to maintain a positive attitude to giving so I can receive graciously. I remind myself that some people just like to brighten another's day with a gift or gesture. If your coworker thought you were down or having financial troubles, she may have thought she was just being nice, rather than doing you a favour that required repayment.

Or maybe she wants to be more than just colleagues. ;)

[bikerscars]

i HATE owing anyone anything

i don't like anyone owing me anything...i rather just give to them without any reciprocating action needed

seems to be a common thread among us 1%ers

[wise]

I have always avoided being indebted to others. It's like being smothered.

I once turned down my stepfather's offer to pay off my car. I regretted it later when I had some financial struggles. I was young at the time. Now that I'm "older" I am glad I refused his offer. He has mentioned many times since then about people who owe him for his kindness to him.

In a case like this I would tell the lady that I hate the feeling of being indebted, even if it is for a lunch. If you're OK with reciprocating and she doesn't want you to, then it sounds like a good time to ask for the gifts to end.

[rwyatt365]

Two things; first, is anything ever given with no expectation of a return? Or, to put it another way, does true altruism exist? My (majority) cynical side says "no", at some level, in some way there is always some expectation of a return for an act. Whether that return be external (from the recipient, or some other agent), or internal (some personal gratification) there is the expectation of a return.

And second, based on Jezebel's comment;
People like this place themselves in a position where they could be taken advantage of. We don't really owe them anything and it's their own fault if they never get anything in return. So why don't we? Morals? Future avoidance of drama? A desire to only be responsible for ourselves? Or would some of you take advantage of having a person who insists on always giving?
This reminds me of a Bill Withers song from the '70s, the tag line goes, "…if it feels this good being used, just keep on usin' me until you use me up…". Some people claim the be "helpful" (see above) and that is their sole motivation. But others fall into the "martyr" category. For those…I'm with Bill (except to be the user and not the usee). But I guess that's my "Neutral Evil" alignment (see the 'Your Alignment' thread). * [smiley=sneaky.gif]

[Rei]

Two things; first, is anything ever given with no expectation of a return? Or, to put it another way, does true altruism exist?

Definately not.
Even if you give just to 'feel good' you're expecting something in return.

It feels weird when you receive these 'handouts' because it means that someone sees you're not in control of your life.
Thats exactly it. When someone gives me something, I feel like I've been deemed incapable of fulfilling my own needs - one of the few insults I really take to heart.

[wise]

Two things; first, is anything ever given with no expectation of a return? Or, to put it another way, does true altruism exist?

Definately not.
Even if you give just to 'feel good' you're expecting something in return.

This may be a logical argument. It doesn't mean it's true.

I have given things to people because I knew they needed it. I could care less if I'm reciprocated. I don't get off on personal gratification because of giving. If anything, I was the one doing without and only did it because I believed it was the right thing at the time.

I've done work for people that just left me worn out. I didn't bask in the afterglow of exhaustion.

Giving doesn't usually trigger any emotion in me.

So, I say, if you don't want someone giving something to you, don't take. You don't really know EVERY person's thoughts and motives.

[Evalis]

I refuse to participate in the birthday gift giving ritual because of this. I mean sure I might be able to surprise you and pick up something for that you absolutely wanted.. but then.. if you do it yourself there is a 100% chance that you would get what you wanted. It's also wayyy too much effort to figure out all the things that other people like.

When it comes to rediculously small purchases though, like coffee and/or donuts I have a habit of fronting for people because it A: won't affect me very much whether or not they return the favour, and B: improves the likelyhood of someone willing to pick me up a coffee when I don't have the inclination to go.

There is however another motivation your co-worker may be doing this.. and that is the element of 'surprise' in and of itself being worth the exchange, even if it isn't financially equivalent. So.. your friend refuses to let you pay her back.. because she doesn't want money. She wants you to surprise her, and make her life more interesting. In fact.. I would be willing to place a wager of $5 digital dollars that if you come into work with some treats or a nifty little item that she commented on how much she likes before.. she would be ecstatic to recieve it, and in the offchance that she tries to pay you for it, simply refuse, and tell her that you just wanted to see a smile on her face.

The giggly happiness she will get out of it for the rest of the day will thus 'earn you your freedom', because you will have returned to her exactly what she wanted. This may however escalate the gift-exchanging behaviour.

Just a note of commentary.. if you were to tell her that you were trying to 'pay her back' she would refuse the gift.. but if you were to say that you were just 'returning the favour' she would be happy. Phrasing that you wanted to see her smile implies both the above and that you believe she was treating you because she was just trying to make you smile too. (AWW gushy lovy stuff :`D)

[Rei]

Two things; first, is anything ever given with no expectation of a return? Or, to put it another way, does true altruism exist?

Definately not.
Even if you give just to 'feel good' you're expecting something in return.

This may be a logical argument. It doesn't mean it's true.

I have given things to people because I knew they needed it. I could care less if I'm reciprocated. I don't get off on personal gratification because of giving. If anything, I was the one doing without and only did it because I believed it was the right thing at the time.

I've done work for people that just left me worn out. I didn't bask in the afterglow of exhaustion.

Giving doesn't usually trigger any emotion in me.

So, I say, if you don't want someone giving something to you, don't take. You don't really know EVERY person's thoughts and motives.



I guess you can say that.
But for me, even I'm not doing it for any reason other than to benefit the receiver, I'll still think I'm doing it for something.

There has to be a reason behind everyone's actions. *You do it because you recognize it as something that should be done. *That means you have a preconceived positive impression of the act. *Doing it after you recognize it should be done means you confirm that said impression as positive.

[hr]

I hope that made enough sense to be understood. *I’m sorry if it didn’t… I’ll try to fix that if I must.

[chocky]

This is one of those "life's lesson" topics that haunt me. I'm really not sure what it is I'm meant to learn.

By nature I'm very independent and self-sufficient, and extremely uncomfortable with being given things.

There are two major reasons. Firstly, I have very little desire for 'stuff'. Being given stuff clutters my mind, my emotions and my space. It is a waste and a hindrance to me.

Secondly, I have been poor. I mostly haven't had the means to return gifts, nor even the will to if it means I'm just adding to the unwanted junk in the world. (On a grand scale I see the indulgent gift giving of our society as a type of suicidal gesture.)

Yet because I have been poor, I have had to learn how to accept charity. It has been a great challenge to my pride-full nature, and a bitter thing to be indebted. It is a situation I have become somewhat numb to over time rather than comfortable with.

However, when I interact, I do feel the need to give personally of my time and energy. And I know, deep down, that it is an apology gesture: please accept me, please accept me! because I equate my value to others only with what I can do for them.

And so I equate giving with buying goodwill.

I would rather be free of these awkward, insoluble, giving/recieving/owing equations all together. Is it a matter of if I can't be in credit I can't be the beneficent one, so I'd rather not play at all? Does my sense of independence falsely arise from other's indebtedness to me, so that it is in fact an illusory independence? Or do I truly want nothing of the giving and receiving that is the bond of human commerce?

[OneBadMother]

I always try to repay whatever debts I can. My mother has held it over my head half my life that she's been providing for me, so I'm strongly adverse to owing anyone anything.

During the awkward period of time when I was trying to gather up courage to ask my friend out, I called him after having left his dorm. I panicked at the last moment, though, and ended up just stuttering that it was cold out, leading him to give me one of his jackets. It was cold out, true, but it was nothing I couldn't have handled. I felt incredibly stupid, apologized profusely, and returned the jacket promptly the next day with a pack of cough drops (he had had a cough for some time). It wasn't quite a full repayment for probably disturbing his sleep, and I think it ended that night on a bad note, but I think that's more than some would do.