INFP - INTJ Romance (?) [Archive]

MichaelH

10-13-2007, 05:39 PM

bikerscars is right - that fact that he's communicating with you says he's interested.

INTJs as a rule _HATE_ boring social interaction. We see it as unfulfilling and unproductive. Plus, as bikerscars mentioned, we feel awkward being social. It's just not natural for us.

See if there's something specific to go _do_ together. There should be a purpose to the meeting. Yes, "hang out and get to know each other and maybe snog" is a purpose, but there should be a more direct useful point than that. Watching a movie would give you both something to discuss afterwards. Maybe ask him what some of his favorite restaurants are, and if he could introduce you to one. It's important to let him be in control of the event place and time, and it should have an easy exit for him if he needs to leave early. (It's an INTJ thing...)

If you both play computer games, a LAN party would be natural. (!)

If you can both go somewhere where there's an outside interest to explore - a zoo, a computer show, a planetarium - it will take some of the pressure off him to be "social".

If it helps any, the awkwardness is almost certainly his own insecurity rather than any doubts about you.

On Second Thought

10-13-2007, 06:39 PM

r21left,

I had a nice, thorough response to your INFP questions, but the site logged me out and now it is gone. :(

I'll write it again in notepad or something and then repost.

Argh!!

On Second Thought

10-13-2007, 06:47 PM

bikerscars is right - that fact that he's communicating with you says he's interested. . . . If it helps any, the awkwardness is almost certainly his own insecurity rather than any doubts about you.

Yes, this brings much comfort. Thanks. :)

See if there's something specific to go _do_ together. There should be a purpose to the meeting. Yes, "hang out and get to know each other and maybe snog" is a purpose, but there should be a more direct useful point than that. Watching a movie would give you both something to discuss afterwards. Maybe ask him what some of his favorite restaurants are, and if he could introduce you to one.

My own insecurities are handled well this way, as well. *One more point of compatibility, perhaps? *:P

It's important to let him be in control of the event place and time, and it should have an easy exit for him if he needs to leave early. (It's an INTJ thing...)

So, INTJs are afraid of getting into something they can't get out of? *Is that because they stick to something once it has been decided?

If you can both go somewhere where there's an outside interest to explore - a zoo, a computer show, a planetarium - it will take some of the pressure off him to be "social".

Good call. *Thanks!

On Second Thought

10-13-2007, 06:48 PM

Understandably, this may have something to do with it. *I don't know, because if *I* had the money to pay for it, there would be absolutely no question at all: we would have met lightyears ago. *(Is "lightyear" one word?)

Lightyear is indeed one word, but it's actually a unit of distance (9.46 x 10^15 meters). * ;D

O.M.G. I knew that! How embarrassing! :-[

GOD

10-13-2007, 06:57 PM

Hi, INTJs *:)

Female INFP here.

I'm currently in an e-relationship with an INTJ. *I think he's great! *He's insecure socially, and he's holding the relationship at bay (i.e., postponing meeting each other). *I've asked him why he's doing this and he responds by saying he's afraid I won't like him after I meet him. *

Although I believe that this is *part* of the situation, I have the feeling there is more to it. *

He asks questions about me (which is manna in heaven to an INFP), so I wonder if he's trying to discern whether I'm "worthy" of his commitment.

Do you, as INTJs, think I'm on the right track?

Thanks for your help!

P.S. *If you have any questions regarding the mysteries of the INFP mind, I'll be happy to offer my thoughts. * :)

Whatever you do, don't do all this "mirroring" body language and stuff that appears in womens magazines... it will go straight over his head.

INTJ's guys are going to learn about those things after the relationship is dead (If they are sufficiently grieved). Sheeze... it took me a year of postmortem analysis to work out why my relationship with a particularly hot women crashed and burned... (She was always trying to get me more F and I just recoiled from all that touchy feely stuff, she did mirroring, she thought I had other girls going on the side, she was interested when I wasn't... and when I was she wasn't).

Quite frankly us INTJ guys probably want the Cherry 2000 from the same name cult 80's movie... ;D

" When Sam Treadwell breaks his Cherry 2000, a robot wife/sex toy, he hires E Johnson, to guide him across a dangerous apocalyptic wasteland to an abandoned manufacturing plant where he hopes to find a duplicate model Cherry 2000 to replace it with".

On Second Thought

10-13-2007, 07:32 PM

Whatever you do, don't do all this "mirroring" body language and stuff that appears in womens magazines... it will go straight over his head.

And that is what I soooo love about him. *He's so clueless it's endearing! *:lovestruck:
Because of this, I don't have to go through any of those silly hoops to express myself to him. *I simply tell him outright that I find him attractive. *He insists I'm mistaken in my appraisal. *<sigh>

INTJ's guys are going to learn about those things after the relationship is dead (If they are sufficiently grieved). Sheeze... it took me a year of postmortem analysis to work out why my relationship with a particularly hot women crashed and burned... (She was always trying to get me more F and I just recoiled from all that touchy feely stuff, she did mirroring, she thought I had other girls going on the side, she was interested when I wasn't... and when I was she wasn't).

Another thing: I won't mirror. *I find it disingenuous. *

You recoiled from the "touchy feely" stuff. *And now you have no hot woman. *Perhaps - and this is just a suggestion - instead of judging the expression of affection in derogatory terms, you might see it as a strength in others from which you can draw, just as you (maybe) wish for them to draw greater logical capabilities from your model. *;)

Quite frankly us INTJ guys probably want the Cherry 2000 from the same name cult 80's movie... ;D

" When Sam Treadwell breaks his Cherry 2000, a robot wife/sex toy, he hires E Johnson, to guide him across a dangerous apocalyptic wasteland to an abandoned manufacturing plant where he hopes to find a duplicate model Cherry 2000 to replace it with".

How convenient it would be, if only it wouldn't drive the INTJ mad IRL.

Thankfully, my INTJ has point-blank told me that he is lacking in emotional connection - that he wants desperately to fill what he feels is a void in his life. *Wow. * :lovestruck:

r21left

10-13-2007, 08:01 PM

[Whatever you do, don't do all this "mirroring" body language and stuff that appears in womens magazines... it will go straight over his head.

INTJ's guys are going to learn about those things after the relationship is dead (If they are sufficiently grieved). Sheeze... it took me a year of postmortem analysis to work out why my relationship with a particularly hot women crashed and burned... (She was always trying to get me more F and I just recoiled from all that touchy feely stuff, she did mirroring, she thought I had other girls going on the side, she was interested when I wasn't... and when I was she wasn't).

Sounds like the NT-NF Death Spiral.

GOD

10-13-2007, 08:16 PM

On Second Thought

10-13-2007, 08:27 PM

GOD

10-13-2007, 08:48 PM

**
You recoiled from the "touchy feely" stuff. *And now you have no hot woman. *Perhaps - and this is just a suggestion - instead of judging the expression of affection in derogatory terms, you might see it as a strength in others from which you can draw, just as you (maybe) wish for them to draw greater logical capabilities from your model. *;)

The touchy feely stuff was more in the sense of PDA's (Public displays of affection)...

INT's are reserved generally (I would assume).

Veneti, was she an extrovert?

She loved guys looking at her, she loved shopping and clothes. She showed me the video of the advertising commercial she was in, she believed as a guy if you liked a woman you simply went over and talked to her... But then again, very much of a family girl. Quite into Church and sentimental.

I'd say shes prob an I,N,F and prob a J. Great thats 2-4% of women...

I think any public displays are a function of being a full on F.

One thing that surprised me is that when she flew back over to her country (In Europe) she gave me a silent call about 3 hours after she landed back... What? Am I supposed to call straight away... I don't understand!!!! Must be an F.

On Second Thought

10-13-2007, 09:28 PM

You recoiled from the "touchy feely" stuff. And now you have no hot woman. Perhaps - and this is just a suggestion - instead of judging the expression of affection in derogatory terms, you might see it as a strength in others from which you can draw, just as you (maybe) wish for them to draw greater logical capabilities from your model. ;)

The touchy feely stuff was more in the sense of PDA's (Public displays of affection)...

INT's are reserved generally (I would assume).

Veneti, was she an extrovert?

She loved guys looking at her

That is unquestionably an E thing. I assure you, there is not an INFJ female on the planet who is *overtly* happy about guys looking them. Who doesn't like to know they are attractive enough to be looked at? But this, I promise you, is not the act of an INFJ. :)

she loved shopping and clothes. She showed me the video of the advertising commercial she was in, she believed as a guy if you liked a woman you simply went over and talked to her... But then again, very much of a family girl. Quite into Church and sentimental.

She sounds as though she leans toward traditional gender roles, which, in my mind, sets off the SF alarms.

I'd say shes prob an I,N,F and prob a J. Great thats 2-4% of women...

INFJ. No freakin' way. (Hey, that rhymes.)

I think any public displays are a function of being a full on F.

I agree; but I'd add a *hint* of E in there.

As an F myself, yeah, you bet I like to be reassured of my honey's reverence, but as an I . . . let's not make spectacles of ourselves. It's embarrassing.

One thing that surprised me is that when she flew back over to her country (In Europe) she gave me a silent call about 3 hours after she landed back... What? Am I supposed to call straight away... I don't understand!!!! Must be an F.

You hit it right on the mark. Definitely an F.

And um, yes, you were supposed to call.

Didn't you care whether she made it back safely?

Didn't you care whether her very long flight was comfortable or whether she had to suffer next to a crying baby for 10+ hours?

Didn't you simply want to hear her voice to sustain the closeness, despite being across the planet from one another?

These are the questions *she* asked herself. Sure you cared, but unless there is action to supply her with that information, she has no idea whether your affections flew away with her plane. Do you see? :)

If I had to cast my vote, I'd say she is an ESFx. See if the descriptions match.fixed broken quote tags

GOD

10-13-2007, 09:53 PM

If I had to cast my vote, I'd say she is an ESFx. See if the descriptions match.

Ok, I'll agree. I'll have to get her to do the test....

Hmm.. most like an E (Simply because she was so sure of herself).

But she was sure good at languages. She could speak 4. But she was very emotional underneath thats for sure... like an endless pool. Dunno... I read the INFJ profile and she seemed most like it..

But I do go for E women.

I feel quite sorry for her... but even I'm having difficulty putting the final nail into this one... I guess it will have to go on the pyre for the final ritual...

I'll have to run through all my other relationship nightmares at some point, you can see just how bad us INTJ's are when it comes to relating to the vast majority of F women... :-X

Anyway, goodluck on your night out... you seem smart enough and socially aware enough to make allowances for the directness of your date... :P

Firelie

10-13-2007, 11:43 PM

Maybe he's afraid he won't like you after he meets you.

That's part of the reason why I never went to visit my last e-boyfriend (the last 3 e-relationships I had before him...when I met the guys in person, they were COMPLETELY not the type I'd ever involve myself with in real life...sometimes it seems nicer to preserve the fantasy than to end up disliking a person after meeting them...sigh).

On Second Thought

10-14-2007, 01:50 AM

If I had to cast my vote, I'd say she is an ESFx. *See if the descriptions match.[/quote]

Ok, I'll agree. I'll have to get her to do the test....

Ohhhh. * I thought you guys were kaput! *Good, now we can find out the truth. *;)

Hmm.. most like an E (Simply because she was so sure of herself). *

And I would have said it was the J in her that made her self-assured, LOL.

But she was sure good at languages. She could speak 4. But she was very emotional underneath thats for sure... like an endless pool. Dunno... I read the INFJ profile and she seemed most like it..

Okay okay, try this one: *ENFJ. *It just CAN'T be INFJ!

But I do go for E women.

Don' know what yer missin'!

I feel quite sorry for her... but even I'm having difficulty putting the final nail into this one... I guess it will have to go on the pyre for the final ritual...

That bites. *I'm sorry. *:(

I'll have to run through all my other relationship nightmares at some point, you can see just how bad us INTJ's are when it comes to relating to the vast majority of F women... *:-X *

Please do. *I find it fascinating!

Anyway, goodluck on your night out... you seem smart enough and socially aware enough to make allowances for the directness of your date... *:P

Thank you, but alas, my INTJ lives half way across the country, and I have yet to meet him in person. <wistful sigh>

iamnotspock

10-14-2007, 04:12 AM

So, I actually had this exact relationship before the more recent ISFP "experience."

Just like you, it started as an "e" relationship, she was an INFP, and did not have the means to come visit, due to her under-employment. She lived half a country away. And I am an INTJ, who would rather spend Sat. night on a computer than go anywhere that more than three people would congregate.

Anyway, we progressed from some lengthy emails to epic phone convos lasting 3 hours or more. Then she sent me some pics and I was really excited to meet her.

Well, that was the best part of the romance. About a week before I flew out to meet her, she sent me some "updated" photos, and I realized she looked *nothing* like she did in the first set, which must have been very old. At that point my romantic interest vanished. It was later that I realized that in the first set she had looked just like the girl I was in love with before I met her -- which is probably what triggered the whole thing subconsiously.

To make a long story short, we stayed friends, and had many interesting phone conversations, and still met once in awhile in person. She benefited from my extreme degree of confidence in business and financial matters and she vastly improved her professional situation. And I benefited from her admiration and sympathy and uncovered my more touchy-Feeling side.

BUT, while she was very attracted to me, I was not attracted to her, and I had to consider that even though I was upfront about everything from the beginning, being as tactful as I could be, she really didn't want to take no for an answer, so our whole friendship could be viewed as a one-sided relationship to some extent.

Also, our connection caused some serious problems in the subsequent relationship with the ISFP who got extremely jealous of our phone convos and demanded that I cut them off. To which I responded like an INTJ and refused to abandon my INFP friend to satisfy the emotional ISFP demands. Which became a whole fiasco.

Anyway, what I found out was that INFP and INTJ have a shared understanding of the world, which is very satisfying, which I attribute to the IN in common. The P and J also worked out well, b/c I am judgemental about everything, and she isn't, so we don't clash. She just agrees with everything I say, which I think is perfect, since INTJ's are always right and have 12 reasons to support everything ;-)

If the physical attraction were there, it might have worked out. And in fact I was looking for another iNFP when I met the ISFP (who thought she was an INFP at the time). But I think that an INFP would never excite me, b/c they are always seeking to avoid conflict, and I actually love a good fight, (which can lead to great sex). At the very least, I like women who are a real challenge, and INFPs are more like cuddly teddy bears. But that is just me, not necessarily an INTJ thing.

But back to you, Second Thought. If I could advise you, I'd say do NOT keep yourself available. That lowers your value and his interest. INTJ or not, he must come to you. So, he knows you are interested. Now withdraw. Surprise him with a phone call after a week, keep it short, and then hang up when you reach the high spot. Provoke him by disagreeing with something, an idea which he might passionately defend. INTJ's are very cost-conscious, and he will not fly out to meet you unless he sees real value. I will get creamed her for recomending "the rules" -- but truth be told, the girls who really got to me played the game of love to a T. INTJ's are not really emotionless beings, they just like to believe they are, in part to deal with their alienation from the world by claiming "they don't care." Mostly, that is a pose. They care, just about different things. Spock, after all, was half-human. To get these guys going requires *more* provocation than the average EF. I could tell youmore but then what would the fun be.

good luck!

GOD

10-14-2007, 07:37 AM

Ok, I'll agree. I'll have to get her to do the test....

Ohhhh. * I thought you guys were kaput! *Good, now we can find out the truth. *;)

Assuming I can get her to do the test. She's quite interested always in about "what is going on in my life" and she's always trying to find out if I have a new g/f (I absolutely know she'd somehow want to get a photo of "her"). *Any communication I have with her completely bypasses that... so we're always at cross purposes. Weird though, she called me "demanding" however given the way she expected me to tow the line and become super coupled quickly I think she was more demanding.

Anyway, I was somewhat oblivious to all the signals... like she says out of the blue when we are out "You're a guy and plenty of money/personality (blah blah) you'll always be able to get women" which struck me as obviously one of these F type things... Actually, I thought maybe she is beginning to move away from me. *Funnily enough if you're expecting them to walk away and they are expecting you to do the same.... then it’s almost a self fulfilling prophecy. (Me, insecure that every guy out looked at her, her insecure that I supposedly had plenty of women on the side (Which I seriously cannot understand why).

One definite thing I do know is that because I don't treat attractive women any better than I'd treat any non attractive woman.... it really grinds them down. *

Hmm.. Most like an E (Simply because she was so sure of herself). *

And I would have said it was the J in her that made her self-assured, LOL.

Actually, I've always been trying to test my mind and the way I think. To me you always need to push yourself out of your comfort zone if you want to improve.

I flirt with women quite a bit, its fun, but I'm an I. It’s not the J that has led me to this, it’s the lack of self confidence stripped away by the I in my youth that is just being overcome by positive feedback from "flirtees".

But she was sure good at languages. She could speak 4. But she was very emotional underneath that’s for sure... like an endless pool. Dunno... I read the INFJ profile and she seemed most like it..

Okay okay, try this one: *ENFJ. *It just CAN'T be INFJ!

ENFJ it is, doesn't matter really though... hopefully I don't get another one along my trails...

But I do go for E women.

Don' know what yer missin'!

BOREDOM? Seriously, I do need an E to do the socializing bit. Only that an E will clash with my lack of interest in being quite social... So, a good bit of F might counteract (family orientated etc).

So, we have the E and the F. -> OMG -> The death star profile seems to be appearing *:scared: *

I'll have to run through all my other relationship nightmares at some point, you can see just how bad us INTJ's are when it comes to relating to the vast majority of F women... *:-X *

Please do. *I find it fascinating!

Ok, sometime... One thing that women’s magazines should do is spell out a clear user guide to flirting for women. Then us guys will understand the exact signals... Bit like a road code. I could relate to that.

Anyway, goodluck on your night out... you seem smart enough and socially aware enough to make allowances for the directness of your date... *:P

Thank you, but alas, my INTJ lives half way across the country, and I have yet to meet him in person.

<wistful sigh>

You need to keep your options open and look in the real world around you (Assuming you're not stuck in some mountain cabin in the wilderness... ;D)

GOD

10-14-2007, 08:17 AM

So, I actually had this exact relationship before the more recent ISFP "experience."

Just like you, it started as an "e" relationship, she was an INFP, and did not have the means to come visit, due to her under-employment. She lived half a country away. And I am an INTJ, who would rather spend Sat. night on a computer than go anywhere that more than three people would congregate.

I believe it you sat around with 20 other NT's you'd probably enjoy it. I think introversion is more about the quality of the people to interact with. I don't enjoy inane conversation, which doesn't mean I have to talk about "geek things" just that what a lot of people find mentally stimulating bores me.

Anyway, we progressed from some lengthy emails to epic phone convos lasting 3 hours or more. Then she sent me some pics and I was really excited to meet her.

Well, that was the best part of the romance. About a week before I flew out to meet her, she sent me some "updated" photos, and I realized she looked *nothing* like she did in the first set, which must have been very old. At that point my romantic interest vanished. It was later that I realized that in the first set she had looked just like the girl I was in love with before I met her -- which is probably what triggered the whole thing subconsciously.

Hmm.. It’s pretty much the shopping list of requirements that INTJ's seem to want. A lot of people can't understand that I can talk to a woman for about 10 minutes max and know whether I'd even be remotely interested in knowing her more. Tattoos -> No. Smokes ->No. Crap job -> No. These types of attributes are all indicators.

Problem with all the above is that it’s quite easy to stay single for a LONG time. Esp if you're I to start with.

To make a long story short, we stayed friends, and had many interesting phone conversations, and still met once in awhile in person. She benefited from my extreme degree of confidence in business and financial matters and she vastly improved her professional situation. And I benefited from her admiration and sympathy and uncovered my more touchy-Feeling side.

It’s a pity that looks do play such a large degree in attraction.

BUT, while she was very attracted to me, I was not attracted to her, and I had to consider that even though I was upfront about everything from the beginning, being as tactful as I could be, she really didn't want to take no for an answer, so our whole friendship could be viewed as a one-sided relationship to some extent.

Hmm... Sounds like she'd clicked with you, and you know by being the usual blunt honesty you'll trash her emotions. So, I guess she just saw your fend offs as due to your introversion or something.

Also, our connection caused some serious problems in the subsequent relationship with the ISFP who got extremely jealous of our phone convos and demanded that I cut them off. To which I responded like an INTJ and refused to abandon my INFP friend to satisfy the emotional ISFP demands. Which became a whole fiasco.

Lol... "days of our lives" comes to "rational" town...

That’s why I just clean break everything. I simply detest the crap lives (worlds) most people live in. Everyone seems to pitch up in front of me and extol the problems in their lives.

That’s the great thing about INTJ; we can eventually solve all our own problems... a number of types merely just go in repetitive circles....

Anyway, what I found out was that INFP and INTJ have a shared understanding of the world, which is very satisfying, which I attribute to the IN in common. The P and J also worked out well, b/c I am judgmental about everything, and she isn't, so we don't clash. She just agrees with everything I say, which I think is perfect, since INTJ's are always right and have 12 reasons to support everything ;-).

Lol... mine must have been a J. She was always trying to push me around. I had a small hole in my favourite T/Shirt (You couldn't stick your finger through it ;D) and she outright REFUSED to go out with me wearing it. She was the oldest of an all daughter family.. So maybe that’s why she tried to push me around. I just know she was slowly trying to model me into her "ideally dressed guy".

If the physical attraction were there, it might have worked out. And in fact I was looking for another iNFP when I met the ISFP (who thought she was an INFP at the time). But I think that an INFP would never excite me, b/c they are always seeking to avoid conflict, and I actually love a good fight, (which can lead to great sex). At the very least, I like women who are a real challenge, and INFPs are more like cuddly teddy bears. But that is just me, not necessarily an INTJ thing.

Feisty women are great. As an INTJ that’s a financially orientated one, then your probably a class three Ennengram (Or however it’s spelt), which is the "achiever" rather than the standard class 5 of "investigator" that most INTJ (Scientific types) are.

I think class 3 have more of a competitive spirit and the class 5 less so. We use INTJ to leverage gain and achieve change, whereas the class 5 wants to understand and improve.

On Second Thought

10-14-2007, 05:26 PM

Since it would take a lot of effort (in my mind) to do all that quoting in order to respond to you guys - and OMG, I'm *way* too lazy for that - I'm simply going to do old fashioned quotes and speak generally. K? K.

NOTspock ;)
As a comparison/contrast tool, I offer the following:

* My INTJ has seen me on cam and I believe he feels physically attracted (to what an cam can offer)
* We usually spend 3-5 hours a night in chat, and an occasional phone call which will last an hour or so
* INTJ claims to want to meet me, but is afraid he will "hurt me" (whatever)
* INTJ claims he is holding off on meeting me because he doesn't want to go "overboard" too fast (???)
* INTJ says he understands if I date locally and find someone I want to stay with (doesn't he even give *
* a shit?)
* INTJ is killing this romance.

On to your previous INFP relationship...

"BUT, while she was very attracted to me, I was not attracted to her, and I had to consider that even though I was upfront about everything from the beginning, being as tactful as I could be, she really didn't want to take no for an answer, so our whole friendship could be viewed as a one-sided relationship to some extent."

There is a very serious error you made here. *As much as you may have liked to be "friends" with this woman, there was really no true friendship. *

You were using her romantic interest in you to satisfy your need for quality attention/conversation. *That is not friendship. *

This is not what happens between you and your guy friends, correct? *No. *And that's the best way to gauge whether you have a true friendship with a woman. *Would you engage in a romantic relationship with her any more readily than you would with one of your buddies (and vice versa)? *Yes? *Then that is not friendship, it is screwed up soap opera bullshit.

You may have enjoyed her companionship immensely, but that is no excuse.

And your ISFP lady was correct. *The ISFP knew - as *any* person should - there was no "friendship" going on there, and your refusal to cut off your "friend" is, OMG, untenable. *

Unless you think you were doing your INFP some kind of favor by staying involved with her, leading her on. *

So, if you really like a good fight, then I suppose you've got one right here, LOL. *(Hope you don't dismiss me as your friend because of it. * ;))

" . . . and INFPs are more like cuddly teddy bears."

In some cases this is true. *But certainly not in mine. *Not today, anyway. * >:(

And back to our regularly scheduled program . . . *

INTJ/INFP saga...

notspock, you advised me to play "the game." *I understand where you're coming from, but the thing is, I suck at "the game." *Honest IS my game. *

Lucky for me I have come to the point with this INTJ that I am so frustrated that becoming unavailable is looking more and more appealing every day.

What I'm going to tell him is that I need to step back, give myself some time for this frustration to simmer down, and get some perspective. *How greatly he will factor in my life at the end of this period I don't know.

You know, I hate to lose him simply because I am impatient, but I imagine him as an emergency room doctor who, while analyzing the best approach to take, allows his patient to bleed to death! *And that is what's happening to me. *I'm running out of Whatever It Is. *

Veneti:
You are absolutely right. *I need to look around, but I unfortunately *DO* live in the modern equivalent of a cave, LOL!

My town has a population of 4,500. *Yes, the comma is in the correct place. *I live an hour from two major cities, which isn't too bad, but I do rely on the Internet greatly to meet guys. *(Horrible computer addictions are another thing the INTJs and INFPs have in common.)

Ah, you guys, I'm so frustrated! *

But before I post this message, allow me to offer one piece of advice to INTJs: *

"That’s the great thing about INTJ; we can eventually solve all our own problems..."

DO NOT BE SO SURE! *For once!

r21left

10-14-2007, 05:40 PM

* INTJ claims he is holding off on meeting me because he doesn't want to go "overboard" too fast (???)
* INTJ says he understands if I date locally and find someone I want to stay with (doesn't he even give *
* a shit?)
* INTJ is killing this romance.

Let me offer my response to the first two points (to the extent they were implied questions), and a comment about the third:

"Overboard" - one interpretation of what he meant is that he feels strongly for you but doesn't know how to express it, such that he fears letting himself get carried away once he does begin to express his emotions. The ole' INTJ ON/OFF switch. There's no middle setting to speak of.

"Letting" you date others - INTJs are not possessive nor jealous. We don't fight for the affections of others; we believe that if you want us, you'll choose us. We detest the idea of possessing someone or having someone be beholden to us. Thus stated, I don't interpret his comment as him not giving a shit. It's more of a resigned passiveness than anything else.

Romance - INTJs are not fluent in Romance. We can learn and "fake it," but we miss a lot of the subtleties of this exotic language.

On Second Thought

10-14-2007, 06:13 PM

* INTJ claims he is holding off on meeting me because he doesn't want to go "overboard" too fast (???)
* INTJ says he understands if I date locally and find someone I want to stay with (doesn't he even give
a shit?)
* INTJ is killing this romance.

[Let me offer my response

Thank you. I hope you guys will forgive me "going off." I'm very upset right now.

["Overboard" - one interpretation of what he meant is that he feels strongly for you but doesn't know how to express it, such that he fears letting himself get carried away once he does begin to express his emotions.

He has confessed as much to me, so it seems illogical for me to be upset. Could it be that he is waiting for something to happen that will make him *not* care, and in this way he doesn't have to deal with his emotions at all??? What is he hoping to discover in all his analyses?

The ole' INTJ ON/OFF switch. There's no middle setting to speak of.

Yes! I have seen this in action. When he has to take pain medication for a neck problem he has, he is much more likely to express his feelings. He will send me beautiful songs and such. It's very touching.

"Letting" you date others - INTJs are not possessive nor jealous. We don't fight for the affections of others; we believe that if you want us, you'll choose us. We detest the idea of possessing someone or having someone be beholden to us. Thus stated, I don't interpret his comment as him not giving a shit. It's more of a resigned passiveness than anything else.

So he is accepting the possibility that he will lose me, rather than risk becoming overwhelmed by the emotions he already feels. Hey, *there's* some logic for ya! >:(

Romance - INTJs are not fluent in Romance. We can learn and "fake it," but we miss a lot of the subtleties of this exotic language.

Ya think? LOL! (Sorry for the sarcasm.)

notspock suggests I "disappear" for a while. I don't know. My best relationships have been the ones where I can duke it out with someone while knowing that we'll not abandon each other and come out better people for it.

fixed broken quote tags

r21left

10-14-2007, 06:28 PM

Thank you. *I hope you guys will forgive me "going off." *I'm very upset right now.
Battlestations! Raise shields!

He has confessed as much to me, so it seems illogical for me to be upset. *Could it be that he is waiting for something to happen that will make him *not* care, and in this way he doesn't have to deal with his emotions at all??? *What is he hoping to discover in all his analyses?
That's conceivable. Emotions are not our strong suit (duh), so it may be easier for him to turn you away than to deal with them. All the more reason for you to stay in this fight and guide him through this process. I'm not much for games either. I prefer the honest approach, going at it together and emerging stronger. This is where you can take the lead and teach him a thing or two.

So he is accepting the possibility that he will lose me, rather than risk becoming overwhelmed by the emotions he already feels. *Hey, *there's* some logic for ya! * >:(
This whole area is bereft of logic. Self-confidence, analytical abilities, logic... all of them escape us in this realm.

notspock suggests I "disappear" for a while. *I don't know. *My best relationships have been the ones where I can duke it out with someone while knowing that we'll not abandon each other and come out better people for it.
Go with what you know. I second the duking-it-out approach. Your disappearing might incite paranoia and self-doubt in him. Better to be on the up-and-up and emerge through this stronger and closer. However, if you don't make it out together, at least you'll know that something else would have unraveled the relationship later on.

On Second Thought

10-14-2007, 07:36 PM

Ok, I'll agree. I'll have to get her to do the test....

Ohhhh. I thought you guys were kaput! Good, now we can find out the truth. ;)

Veneti Assuming I can get her to do the test. She's quite interested always in about "what is going on in my life" and she's always trying to find out if I have a new g/f (I absolutely know she'd somehow want to get a photo of "her"). Any communication I have with her completely bypasses that... so we're always at cross purposes. Weird though, she called me "demanding" however given the way she expected me to tow the line and become super coupled quickly I think she was more demanding.

Veneti Anyway, I was somewhat oblivious to all the signals... like she says out of the blue when we are out "You're a guy and plenty of money/personality (blah blah) you'll always be able to get women" which struck me as obviously one of these F type things... Actually, I thought maybe she is beginning to move away from me. ....

She was fishing. She was trying to find out where you stand in the relationship. She was hoping you would say: "But I don't want those women. I want you." (It's what every interested NF on the planet wants to hear, btw.)

Veneti Funnily enough if you're expecting them to walk away and they are expecting you to do the same.... then it’s almost a self fulfilling prophecy. (Me, insecure that every guy out looked at her, her insecure that I supposedly had plenty of women on the side (Which I seriously cannot understand why).

A perfect example of the dangers of having certain similarities. If both types are not willing to "fight" to find out what is going on in the other's mind, well . . .

Veneti One definite thing I do know is that because I don't treat attractive women any better than I'd treat any non attractive woman.... it really grinds them down.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. You mean it bothers the attractive women that you don't fawn over them?

Veneti Hmm.. Most like an E (Simply because she was so sure of herself).

And I would have said it was the J in her that made her self-assured, LOL.

Veneti Actually, I've always been trying to test my mind and the way I think. To me you always need to push yourself out of your comfort zone if you want to improve . . . I flirt with women quite a bit, its fun, but I'm an I. It’s not the J that has led me to this, it’s the lack of self confidence stripped away by the I in my youth that is just being overcome by positive feedback from "flirtees".

That is how *you* approach it, but that does not mean that is how someone else approaches it. Besides, self-assuredness is not the same thing as "pushing yourself out of your comfort zone." One is natural, the other is an attempt at self-assuredness. ;)

Veneti But she was sure good at languages. She could speak 4. But she was very emotional underneath that’s for sure... like an endless pool. Dunno... I read the INFJ profile and she seemed most like it..

Okay okay, try this one: ENFJ. It just CAN'T be INFJ!

Veneti ENFJ it is, doesn't matter really though... hopefully I don't get another one along my trails...
ATo view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. don't say that. The next one will have had different life experiences. Course, it could get *worse*, too!

Veneti
But I do go for E women.
Don' know what yer missin'!

Veneti
BOREDOM?
Heyyyy!!! >:(

Veneti Only that an E will clash with my lack of interest in being quite social... So, a good bit of F might counteract (family orientated etc).

After my divorce from an ENFP (ugh), I swore I would never be with another E again. And boy have I been happier. No more contempt for their need for everyone to pay attention to them. No more contempt for their switching to other people's personalities. (That drove me insane.)

Veneti I'll have to run through all my other relationship nightmares at some point, you can see just how bad us INTJ's are when it comes to relating to the vast majority of F women... :-X

Veneti One thing that women’s magazines should do is spell out a clear user guide to flirting for women. Then us guys will understand the exact signals... Bit like a road code. I could relate to that.
You mean like a map legend? I suppose that could be done. :P

Veneti Anyway, goodluck on your night out... you seem smart enough and socially aware enough to make allowances for the directness of your date... :P

Thank you, but alas, my INTJ lives half way across the country, and I have yet to meet him in person.

<wistful sigh>

You need to keep your options open and look in the real world around you (Assuming you're not stuck in some mountain cabin in the wilderness... ;D)

Dang it. I always mess up the quote thingy. >:( um, *attempted* to fix broken quotes...

GOD

10-14-2007, 07:46 PM

But before I post this message, allow me to offer one piece of advice to INTJs: *

"That’s the great thing about INTJ; we can eventually solve all our own problems..."

DO NOT BE SO SURE! *For once!

Oh yes we can! We are the evil majority on this board :P :-X

On Second Thought

10-14-2007, 07:50 PM

On Second Thought

10-14-2007, 07:55 PM

Veneti, et al:

You guys better check that last long post for my responses. I super duper messed up the quoting function.

Duh. (NEVER let an INFP near a computer.)

GOD

10-14-2007, 08:03 PM

She was fishing. *She was trying to find out where you stand in the relationship. *She was hoping you would say: "But I don't want those women. *I want you." *(It's what every interested NF on the planet wants to hear, btw.)

Sheeze.. she knew I liked her. How many times do I need to reinforce her fragile ego.

I took the statement that "I'll find another boyfriend within three months of returning home" as she was leaving me. To which I replied "We'll get myself another woman"... which then returned as "You should".. me -> "I will" -> her "Good".

Guess the sitting down with me and thumbing through a cosmo magazine and talking about how "guys and girls could be friends" was another starter for 2.

Guess I shouldn't have kept talking about flying her over for more holidays and then not being able to because of work committments.

Oh well, It was truely trashed by Moi! (Me).

One definite thing I do know is that because I don't treat attractive women any better than I'd treat any non attractive woman.... it really grinds them down. *

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. *You mean it bothers the attractive women that you don't fawn over them?

Absolutely.

OneBadMother

10-14-2007, 08:07 PM

Ah, yeah. If she was an FJ, keeping appointments like that would = paramount importance.

On Second Thought

10-14-2007, 08:22 PM

Thank you. I hope you guys will forgive me "going off." I'm very upset right now.

Battlestations! Raise shields!.

Well, at least you know what's good for you. :P

He has confessed as much to me, so it seems illogical for me to be upset. Could it be that he is waiting for something to happen that will make him *not* care, and in this way he doesn't have to deal with his emotions at all??? What is he hoping to discover in all his analyses?

[That's conceivable. Emotions are not our strong suit (duh), so it may be easier for him to turn you away than to deal with them. All the more reason for you to stay in this fight and guide him through this process. I'm not much for games either. I prefer the honest approach, going at it together and emerging stronger. This is where you can take the lead and teach him a thing or two.

<deep breath> Yes. I strongly suspect he would prefer the fight-to-win approach. He even mentioned wanting a woman to put on her "war boots" to figure out what was up with him.

So yes, I'll put on my boots and e-slap him around a bit tonight. bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!

So he is accepting the possibility that he will lose me, rather than risk becoming overwhelmed by the emotions he already feels. Hey, *there's* some logic for ya! >:(

This whole area is bereft of logic. Self-confidence, analytical abilities, logic... all of them escape us in this realm.

Yet, instead of giving in to the Dark Side, you fight with what quantum strands of theory remain. It's actually quite endearing, though damn frustrating!

notspock suggests I "disappear" for a while. I don't know. My best relationships have been the ones where I can duke it out with someone while knowing that we'll not abandon each other and come out better people for it.

[Go with what you know. I second the duking-it-out approach. Your disappearing might incite paranoia and self-doubt in him.

Yes, I believe it would. He's already in a "delicate" state. Why aggravate it further?

Better to be on the up-and-up and emerge through this stronger and closer. However, if you don't make it out together, at least you'll know that something else would have unraveled the relationship later on..

Agreed. :)fixed broken quote tags

r21left

10-14-2007, 08:29 PM

2d Thought, when the storm passes and the skies clear, I'd still like to hear you thoughts on those four questions I posed yesterday. :)

On Second Thought

10-14-2007, 09:26 PM

She was fishing. She was trying to find out where you stand in the relationship. She was hoping you would say: "But I don't want those women. I want you." (It's what every interested NF on the planet wants to hear, btw.)

Sheeze.. she knew I liked her. How many times do I need to reinforce her fragile ego.

This leads me to an aspect of NFs I've never been able to understand: Why *do* we need a steady stream of reinforcement? If you're hoping for the Answer, I'm sorry. I haven't figured it out yet. :P

But there is a way to look at it that *may* make it more endurable. Think of expressions of affection/love are to an F as water is to thirst. It gets replenished, then gradually gets turned into some other form of energy, and then cycles into thirst again. Though I cannot see what part this need plays in Mother Nature's Grand Scheme, the fact remains that it exists and must be dealt with. It is probably not that different than an INTJ's need for ideas or intellectualism; it's just that an F's need can *only* be met through interaction with other humans.

I have a hard time accepting the F need for positive reinforcement as a desire to feed the ego.

I took the statement that "I'll find another boyfriend within three months of returning home" as she was leaving me. To which I replied "We'll get myself another woman"... which then returned as "You should".. me -> "I will" -> her "Good".

And her last ditch effort to affirm commitment backfires. :(

But the cool thing is with an INTJ, all hope is not lost! (If there was indeed attraction still lingering.)

Guess the sitting down with me and thumbing through a cosmo magazine and talking about how "guys and girls could be friends" was another starter for 2.

Cosmo ain't got shit on y'all two, LOL!

Guess I shouldn't have kept talking about flying her over for more holidays and then not being able to because of work committments.

If work commitments were the *true* reason for not flying her over, then there was nothing to be done about it. Please don't be hard on yourself when it's not necessay. You INTJs are tough enough on yourselves.

Oh well, It was truely trashed by Moi! (Me).

Please see my above statement. ;)

One definite thing I do know is that because I don't treat attractive women any better than I'd treat any non attractive woman.... it really grinds them down.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. You mean it bothers the attractive women that you don't fawn over them?

Absolutely.

Hm. Careful not to over-generalize here. Personally, I would find it incredibly attractive that a man would treat non-attractive women equally with attractive women. In fact, it makes me rather sick to see men fall over themselves just because a woman is *physically* more attractive.

It's one thing to find one person more attractive than another, and it is a whole 'nother ball game to *act* on that appraisal.

wolf

10-15-2007, 12:15 AM

So verbose...

1) Consistency/availability = he likes you or is concerned about you.
2) Most of us need more space and personal time than you appear to give, he's probably worried about this, in spite of #1.
3) We don't want to be played with (as claimed above) - we like to do the playing. If they did that, I would lose interest instantly. I have a friend that comments about my playing chess with her and she likes it, realizing I care enough to play with her. If he isn't playing chess with you, #1 could be that he's just a nice guy and cares about you or is concerned about something. I've been chased by girls that I kinda got into e-relationships with even though I only cared about her as a person and not because I really wanted to be with her. She wanted that and I didn't, but I couldn't be obvious because I knew it could have bad effects (and did when I was very straight with her). I consider most Fs, especially those with insecurity issues, effectively fields of land mines, and as such, I avoid them.

My curiosity:
What are your ages?
Relationship experiences?

For the record: If a girl I seriously liked over the internet would take a day or three off work and fly over to meet me, I'd pay for the tickets and reimburse her the amount of money she didn't make due to not working. Nobody has ever offered to come meet me, they always want me to go there. It would be quite the gesture from my perspective.

On Second Thought

10-15-2007, 12:43 AM

So verbose...

1) Consistency/availability = he likes you or is concerned about you.

He has stated he likes me very much, but that he fears going "overboard" like he "always does." *So how long he is going to take to test his restraint? *He will have to at some point, yes?

2) Most of us need more space and personal time than you appear to give, he's probably worried about this, in spite of #1.

I'm asking him whether I'm guilty of such right now. *No, he says I'm not guilty. *Vindicated! *Yay!

3) We don't want to be played with (as claimed above) - we like to do the playing. *If they did that, I would lose interest instantly. *I have a friend that comments about this and actually likes it, realizing I care enough to play with her. *If he isn't playing chess with you, #1 could be that he's just a nice guy and cares about you at some other level.

We would have to be clear about what type of playing we're talking about. *

And he and I are quite clear on what level it is that we care about each other. * :lovestruck:

I simply don't understand his incessant need to analyze us before we meet, because, as I pointed out to him once, the way we click in person is going to have to factor into the whole equation, too. *So why drag it out?

*I've been chased by girls that I kinda got into e-relationships with even though I only cared about her as a person and not because I really wanted to be with her. *She wanted that and I didn't, but I couldn't be brutal because I knew it could have bad effects (and did when I was very straight with her).

Too avert that problem in the future, do *not* wait to break it to her that you only care for her as a person. *She may be upset, but oh, the pain you save. *Later she will be so thankful you were honest.

My curiosity:
What are your ages?
Relationship experiences?

Me: 38
Him: 41

Relationship experiences: Many and varied.
Me: married and divorced, with only one significant relationship since
Him: married and divorced, with a couple significant relationships since

On Second Thought

10-15-2007, 12:53 AM

For the record: *If a girl I seriously liked over the internet would take a day or three off work and fly over to meet me, I'd pay for the tickets and reimburse her the amount of money she didn't make due to not working. *Nobody has ever offered to come meet me, they always want me to go there. *It would be quite the gesture from my perspective.

For my INTJ, he knows I will go there to meet him. *In our particular circumstances, it is the only sane thing to do. *

To me (this is definitely INFP-ness), it is *nothing* to skip out and go visit someone for a while. *Course, I don't have what you'd call a proper "career," LOL. *(surprise surprise)

See? *You should go ahead and risk those fun-but-exasperating NFs. * :P

wolf

10-15-2007, 01:07 AM

So verbose...

1) Consistency/availability = he likes you or is concerned about you.

He has stated he likes me very much, but that he fears going "overboard" like he "always does." So how long he is going to take to test his restraint? He will have to at some point, yes?
Has he ever defined "overboard"?

2) Most of us need more space and personal time than you appear to give, he's probably worried about this, in spite of #1.
I'm asking him whether I'm guilty of such right now. No, he says I'm not guilty. Vindicated! Yay!
Not really. He could be worried about your feelings - some of us more mature ones actually do that.

3) We don't want to be played with (as claimed above) - we like to do the playing. If they did that, I would lose interest instantly. I have a friend that comments about this and actually likes it, realizing I care enough to play with her. If he isn't playing chess with you, #1 could be that he's just a nice guy and cares about you at some other level.
We would have to be clear about what type of playing we're talking about.
Intellectual games, leading you into things, etc. Manipulating things to lead to optimal outcomes. We do this because that's how we operate in everything - we want to set things up for optimal results whenever possible and will see all the possible outcomes so we select the most likely to bring the best outcomes.

And he and I are quite clear on what level it is that we care about each other. :lovestruck:

I simply don't understand his incessant need to analyze us before we meet, because, as I pointed out to him once, the way we click in person is going to have to factor into the whole equation, too. So why drag it out?
He's uncertain, even though he claims to be certain.

Too avert that problem in the future, do *not* wait to break it to her that you only care for her as a person. She may be upset, but oh, the pain you save. Later she will be so thankful you were honest.
I was honest, then it was like a train wreck and I tried to recover and they assumed. I didn't oppose because I didn't want to create further train wrecks. Like I said, many are mine fields.

Me: 38
Him: 41

Relationship experiences: Many and varied.
Me: married and divorced, with only one significant relationship since
Him: married and divorced, with a couple significant relationships since
Like any INTJ, he doesn't want to fail again. He isn't sufficiently certain that your relationship will not have the same fate, hence he's apprehensive about it.

Then again, he could be overbearing and controlling, based on above comments. He could also have self-image issues, but these relationships make that seem unlikely.

wolf

10-15-2007, 01:22 AM

On Second Thought

10-15-2007, 01:56 AM

[quote=wolf]So verbose...

1) Consistency/availability = he likes you or is concerned about you.

He has stated he likes me very much, but that he fears going "overboard" like he "always does." *So how long he is going to take to test his restraint? *He will have to at some point, yes?

Has he ever defined "overboard"?

He says he doesn't know how to "apply the brakes," that he is a person of extremes. *

2) Most of us need more space and personal time than you appear to give, he's probably worried about this, in spite of #1.

I'm asking him whether I'm guilty of such right now. *No, he says I'm not guilty. *Vindicated! *Yay!

[Not really. *He could be worried about your feelings - some of us more mature ones actually do that.

Though he *is* quite developed in his ability to read emotions and be tactful (I'm very impressed with him), I'll have to stick to my guns on this one. *He has thus far been the initiator, except for my teasing him about not allowing us to meet. * :P

3) We don't want to be played with (as claimed above) - we like to do the playing. *If they did that, I would lose interest instantly. *I have a friend that comments about this and actually likes it, realizing I care enough to play with her. *If he isn't playing chess with you, #1 could be that he's just a nice guy and cares about you at some other level.

We would have to be clear about what type of playing we're talking about. *

Intellectual games, leading you into things, etc. *Manipulating things to lead to optimal outcomes. *We do this because that's how we operate in everything - we want to set things up for optimal results whenever possible and will see all the possible outcomes so we select the most likely to bring the best outcomes. *

The optimal result being that which makes the INTJ appear correct? *

And he and I are quite clear on what level it is that we care about each other. * :lovestruck:

I simply don't understand his incessant need to analyze us before we meet, because, as I pointed out to him once, the way we click in person is going to have to factor into the whole equation, too. *So why drag it out? *

He's uncertain, even though he claims to be certain.

I've confronted him with this possibility, demanding the truth, whether he thinks I want to hear it or not. *He responded by saying he likes me very much, but he is afraid of hurting me, and that I won't like him. *

I believe he likes me very much, but he's not sure we will work in a relationship dynamic. *How he expects to come to a proper conclusion without meeting me, I cannot imagine.

Too avert that problem in the future, do *not* wait to break it to her that you only care for her as a person. *She may be upset, but oh, the pain you save. *Later she will be so thankful you were honest. *

I was honest, then it was like a train wreck and I tried to recover and they assumed. *

I didn't oppose because I didn't want to create further train wrecks.

Yet you let it happen, regardless of your reasoning.

*Like I said, many are mine fields.

And how convenient to blame the victim. * ;)

Me: 38
Him: 41

Relationship experiences: Many and varied.
Me: married and divorced, with only one significant relationship since
Him: married and divorced, with a couple significant relationships since

Like any INTJ, he doesn't want to fail again.

OMG, you can say that again! *He is forever commenting how he's "ruined people's lives" and such. *He says he does not want to do that to anyone ever again. *He sees himself as a complete failure. *By the current standard of society, he is anything but! *Argh!!!

Is there *anything* I can do to make him feel successful? *He is already successful with *me*, but he refuses to allow it. *:(

*He isn't sufficiently certain that your relationship will not have the same fate, hence he's apprehensive about it. *

He has said EXACTLY that. *Is there nothing I can do?? * I've explained that he runs that risk with whomever he chooses, so why be so anal about it with me??

Then again, he could be overbearing and controlling,

Not at all. *But he does so love to tease me about *my* (pretend) jealousies, LOL!

He does say, however, that he is "manipulative." *"Good," I told him, "we're even."

He could also have self-image issues, but these relationships make that seem unlikely.

Yes, he most definitely does have self-image issues. *Very much so. *He claims to not see what I could see in him, despite having had a very pretty wife and very pretty ex-girlfriend. *I don't understand it, except that it is simply the INTJ nature to criticize oneself mercilessly.

I told him once that there is insufficient stimulation in his life to which he can apply his analytical/critical prowess, so he instead turns inward and addresses himself. *

My poor baby! *:(

r21left

10-15-2007, 02:12 AM

OMG, you can say that again! *He is forever commenting how he's "ruined people's lives" and such. *He says he does not want to do that to anyone ever again. *He sees himself as a complete failure. *By the current standard of society, he is anything but! *Argh!!!

Is there *anything* I can do to make him feel successful? *He is already successful with *me*, but he refuses to allow it. *:(

Tell him exactly what you told us, and focus on objective societal standards. For better or worse, he won't trust your subjective valuation of his "failure factor" or lackthereof (for reasons having to do with downplaying subjective valuations, your conflict-of-interest, etc.) Just focus on comparing him to the rest of society, other INTJs, other types. In other words, appeal to his sense of LOGIC!! *;)

On Second Thought

10-15-2007, 02:40 AM

For my INTJ, he knows I will go there to meet him. In our particular circumstances, it is the only sane thing to do.

To me (this is definitely INFP-ness), it is *nothing* to skip out and go visit someone for a while. Course, I don't have what you'd call a proper "career," LOL. (surprise surprise)

See? You should go ahead and risk those fun-but-exasperating NFs. :P
Oh, the ones that like me tend to be. They just don't tend to be the types that would ever be willing to come see me. It would be similar in sanity to come here rather than have me go somewhere. Not that I'm in one, and not that I would get into one again (I have, effectively, given up. If they're my friend and I meet them and it works, cool, but if it doesn't, it's not painful).

They expect males to pursue them, like all females.

Such tacky generalizations again, wolf! Tsk tsk!

Males aren't worth the effort because they're everywhere and there's no need to go anywhere for one.

Wolf, your cynicism reeks! I would go to the ends of the Earth for the one I care about. I am so sincere in this that it is one of my goals to become as flexible in my work as possible - *just* for this purpose. :)

"maybe there is someone I will one day find that would do that for me". Stupid to think, of course, because there's nobody that would do that for me

No, there are plenty of women who would do that. You have to consider things, though. If, like some of the other guys here, you have a requirement that your girl be "properly" employed, well, then you may not have a lot of room to complain.

Another thing to consider is that men are *typically* thought of as, shall we say, less than excited about involving themselves in commitments. If they will take the time, effort, and expense to meet a girl, then that shows some modicum of commitment.

and it wasn't true anyhow.

Those generalizations are going to get you in trouble, wolf! :P

I have personally not only flown to meet a guy for the first time, but also moved from my state to his (with my kids!) to be with him.

My willingness to do so flabbergasts my family. It doesn't faze me one bit, however. :)
fixed broken quote tags

On Second Thought

10-15-2007, 02:47 AM

OMG, you can say that again! He is forever commenting how he's "ruined people's lives" and such. He says he does not want to do that to anyone ever again. He sees himself as a complete failure. By the current standard of society, he is anything but! Argh!!!

Is there *anything* I can do to make him feel successful? He is already successful with *me*, but he refuses to allow it. :(

Tell him exactly what you told us, and focus on objective societal standards. For better or worse, he won't trust your subjective valuation of his "failure factor" or lackthereof (for reasons having to do with downplaying subjective valuations, your conflict-of-interest, etc.) Just focus on comparing him to the rest of society, other INTJs, other types. In other words, appeal to his sense of LOGIC!! ;)

I can do this, but will he listen? You INTJs are the most stubborn bunch out of the 16, I do believe, LOL!fixed broken quote tags

MichaelH

10-15-2007, 03:03 AM

As a comparison/contrast tool, I offer the following:

* My INTJ has seen me on cam and I believe he feels physically attracted (to what an cam can offer)
* We usually spend 3-5 hours a night in chat, and an occasional phone call which will last an hour or so
* INTJ claims to want to meet me, but is afraid he will "hurt me" (whatever)
* INTJ claims he is holding off on meeting me because he doesn't want to go "overboard" too fast (???)
<snip>
* INTJ is killing this romance.

I'll finish typing this post more quickly than the last, and hopefully it will still be on-topic when it makes its way to the board. :)

It sounds like this INTJ has had a good chance to get to know you. You're not happy sticking with a cam relationship, so it's time (for you both) to fish or cut bait.

I'm going to put myself in his shoes and guess what he's thinking.

"Here are my options. I can keep talking to this great woman on camera, or I can have her out here on my dime. If she comes out here, it might be awkward. Worse, there's no upside. If she doesn't like me in person, I've ruined the relationship. If she does like me, does that mean I have to pay for more trips? What if I get tired of her/no longer see her as useful? Either way, things change. I really like this person, and we can have the interaction on-camera with no risk and without raising these other issues." His rational side says meeting is not the best plan of action.

I think the money _might_ be an issue - not from a spending dollars perspective, but as a question of power and independence. HOWEVER, that's my personal perspective. Your INTJ may have entirely different feelings!

Unfortunately, you already know you can't put pressure on him to pay for your trip. If I were in your shoes, I'd try to schedule an independent trip to the same city as the INTJ and meet him then. If it's close enough, make it a day trip to avoid paying for a hotel. Leave early in the morning, be in the city for several hours, then head back that night. If you're lucky, your INTJ might invite you to stay, but don't even _nudge_ in that direction. Meeting is pressure enough; "low key" is the watchword for everything else.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

r21left

10-15-2007, 03:22 AM

On Second Thought

10-15-2007, 05:13 AM

As a comparison/contrast tool, I offer the following: *

* My INTJ has seen me on cam and I believe he feels physically attracted (to what an cam can offer)
* We usually spend 3-5 hours a night in chat, and an occasional phone call which will last an hour or so
* INTJ claims to want to meet me, but is afraid he will "hurt me" (whatever)
* INTJ claims he is holding off on meeting me because he doesn't want to go "overboard" too fast (???) *
<snip>
* INTJ is killing this romance.

I'll finish typing this post more quickly than the last, and hopefully it will still be on-topic when it makes its way to the board. :)

It sounds like this INTJ has had a good chance to get to know you. You're not happy sticking with a cam relationship, so it's time (for you both) to fish or cut bait.

I'm going to put myself in his shoes and guess what he's thinking.

"Here are my options. I can keep talking to this great woman on camera, or I can have her out here on my dime. If she comes out here, it might be awkward. Worse, there's no upside. If she doesn't like me in person, I've ruined the relationship. If she does like me, does that mean I have to pay for more trips? What if I get tired of her/no longer see her as useful? Either way, things change. I really like this person, and we can have the interaction on-camera with no risk and without raising these other issues." His rational side says meeting is not the best plan of action.

But how is there room for two people in those shoes? * :P

god, you sound just like him. * ::)

I think the money _might_ be an issue - not from a spending dollars perspective, but as a question of power and independence. HOWEVER, that's my personal perspective. Your INTJ may have entirely different feelings!

Hm. Not sure what you mean by "power and independence," except the possibility that he would not want *me* to feel like he had all the control. *???

You see, I am in no financial shape to be *able* to make that trip. *The only way for us to meet is for him to pay for it. *Had it been up to me, my ass would have been up there long ago. *I don't like dawdling. *(Slightly against the norm of the INFP type.)

Unfortunately, you already know you can't put pressure on him to pay for your trip. If I were in your shoes, I'd try to schedule an independent trip to the same city as the INTJ and meet him then. If it's close enough, make it a day trip to avoid paying for a hotel. Leave early in the morning, be in the city for several hours, then head back that night. If you're lucky, your INTJ might invite you to stay, but don't even _nudge_ in that direction. Meeting is pressure enough; "low key" is the watchword for everything else.

Well, again, I wish I had the choice. *Your idea is a good one. *:)

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

Absolutely! *Thank you for your thoughtful response. *

That goes for everyone who's helped me. *I sincerely appreciate your time and effort. * :lovestruck:

OneBadMother

10-15-2007, 04:11 PM

Well, even if you don't have a lot of cash on you, can't you save up money until you do have enough to make such a trip? I'm sure he'd appreciate the effort. <_<

Have you guys ever talked on the phone? That might be a good idea if not. It'll give an idea of how you guys would interact without having all the time in the world to carefully think and talk.

On Second Thought

10-15-2007, 07:56 PM

Well, even if you don't have a lot of cash on you, can't you save up money until you do have enough to make such a trip? I'm sure he'd appreciate the effort. <_<

Yeah, I think that's a good idea. I'll see what he says. Thanks. :)

Have you guys ever talked on the phone? That might be a good idea if not. It'll give an idea of how you guys would interact without having all the time in the world to carefully think and talk.

We've talked on the phone quite a few times and we've never been at a loss for words - but we keep the conversations pretty light. You know, serious stuff is left to chat. ;)

Acextreme

08-20-2008, 02:46 AM

Yeah, I think that's a good idea. I'll see what he says. Thanks. :)

We've talked on the phone quite a few times and we've never been at a loss for words - but we keep the conversations pretty light. You know, serious stuff is left to chat. ;)

Well, why not suggest to him a compromise, like I believe someone before me has mentioned. Choose a city that's in between both of you. Don't offer to fly over to him. It sure is flattering to him if you do that but you run the risk of him thinking you are too easy and desperate.

Having each other to meet halfway shows each other's commitment to get to know each other. You shouldn't be the one to do all the hard work. Maybe give him some time to think through thoroughly himself by giving an excuse like you are gonna be busy for say 3-4 days and during that time, avoid all communication unless he initiates it. This will give him time to think how he missed you, etc... :)

Acextreme added to this post, 1 minutes and 51 seconds later...

Oops, how careless of me to not notice the date of this post. Anyway, since I have already resurrect this old thread, how's things turning up?

Thrifty

08-21-2008, 06:35 PM

I missed that offer to gauge the mind of an INFP... I dated one of your "kind" not too long ago. It was fascinating. Unfortunately, we weren't all that compatible (but we sure did come close). The bottom line was that we were capable of forging a deep bond, but sadly not a romantic one.

What I wanted to know about INFPs...

1. what is this "fantasy world" I keep hearing about? What does it look like? What triggers it? What do you use it for? Why?

2. How do you communicate? Do you speak more in terms of values (Fi) or possibilities and interconnectedness (Ne)?

3. What is it about INTJs that attracts you to us?

4. (This one is quite sensitive) Why is paralysis and over-thinking an issue for INFPs?

I think that's enough for now... thanks for tackling any or all of the above. I look forward to your insights!

It's unfortunate she did not answer these.

curiousjane

08-21-2008, 06:59 PM

It's unfortunate she did not answer these.

Well, I can.

But I have to do this later on. I'll come back to it.

Acextreme

08-22-2008, 12:09 PM

Well, I can.

But I have to do this later on. I'll come back to it.

Oh, that would be wonderful. I am all curious and wanting to learn more...such knowledge would be VERY useful at this stage of life... ;)

Udog

08-22-2008, 02:56 PM

INFP male here. However, I had a pretty close female INFP friend back in college, so I'll keep her perspective in mind as I answer.

1. what is this "fantasy world" I keep hearing about? What does it look like? What triggers it? What do you use it for? Why?

I think this answer would be greatly different depending on the INFP. In short, it's the world where our ideals are embraced instead of shunned.

I could make a pretty long post on this question alone.

2. How do you communicate? Do you speak more in terms of values (Fi) or possibilities and interconnectedness (Ne)?

I tend to keep my values hidden except to those I feel can appreciate them. However, I live in Fi, and Ne is how I go about making sure my values are appropriate, and that I am growing.

ENFPs live in Ne, and use Fi to help guide them. You can compare and contrast if you wish.

3. What is it about INTJs that attracts you to us?

I've never known an INTJ female, so I can only say what intrigues me about the INTJ female, vs what attracts. I think it's the fact that INTJs tend to be romantic deep down, but very practical and effective on the surface. INTJ's intuitive natures are important as well.

On a friendship level, my INTJ friends and I complimented each other well. They are the planner, I am the improviser.

4. (This one is quite sensitive) Why is paralysis and over-thinking an issue for INFPs?

In the INTJ, Ni and Te work together to gather and then quickly evaluate alot of information to come up with a single, usually logical, solution.

Fi is rooted in values, which is automatically subjective. We use Ne to accomplish Fi, which is all about finding and exploring possibilites. Add these two together, and we are constantly asking ourselves questions that don't really have a best answer. Then we question the answer we come up with, because we can't help but to find several other answers with potential value.

Thrifty

08-22-2008, 03:42 PM

Thank you for your thoughtful answers.

I for sure know why I like INFPs: with their Zen ways they seem to produce a deep, long lasting calming effect on me that I find very refreshing(although maddening at times :P). Their empathy is also top class and that helps, because well, INTJ do have feelings, we just want you to think we don't have them(oh no! I hope I'm not shunned for this).

I have a few other questions that I would appreciate if you, or another INFP, answered:

1. Do you fear that your values could not "make sense" and that's why you choose to hide them?

2. Could you please expand a little bit on what are the specific functions of the fantasy world? Is it like that VR simulator in The Matrix that you can just fill with whatever elements you want? You can call on it whenever needed? How does it work? You store your ideal values there?

Udog

08-22-2008, 08:07 PM

You ask great questions! Hopefully other INFPs will chime in.

1. Do you fear that your values could not "make sense" and that's why you choose to hide them?

Not for me. It's more that we expect (often from previous experience) that our values will not be appreciated or understood. Some of it comes from simply being an "N" in an "S" world.

Also, our values are a part of our innermost self. This is why we give and relent until one of our values is breached, and then become a brick wall. In a way, when we share our values, we share our 'soul'. Therefore, we do not do this lightly.

2. Could you please expand a little bit on what are the specific functions of the fantasy world? Is it like that VR simulator in The Matrix that you can just fill with whatever elements you want? You can call on it whenever needed? How does it work? You store your ideal values there?

I like this question, simply because you are challenging me to explain my INFP world in INTJ terms. "Your fantasy world is great, but what's the bottom line?" hah. I'll do my best!

I don't think the inner world is something that I 'call on when needed'. It's simply always there, and I may choose to go into it. I've heard how INTJs can have a million thoughts running around in their heads at the same time, and I don't think we are much different. It's just the nature of the thoughts that are vastly different. Our thoughts meld into our emotions, and summed together, take on a metaphorical nature that we call our 'inner world'.

My best shot at a practical answer is that our inner world is what allows us to remain so idealistic. It's where our emotions can run free and unencumbered, and where our lofty ideals reside. It's also why INFPs tend to come off as a bit floaty and awkward... it's the price we pay for spending so much time in our heads!

Our inner world is what gives us the strength to perpetually drift towards the clouds even when so many people try to anchor us to the ground.

Thrifty

08-23-2008, 07:54 AM

Very interesting indeed... I think I understand the nature of the "inner world" better now, although I doubt I'll ever understand it completely due to its complexity. It seems your type's greatest focus is perpetual ideal seeking/storage. And it gives that dreamy, sometimes (when negatively expressed) dissociative nature. It is a double edge sword of sorts, especially when dealing with the S dominated real world.

The idea that it could be like some sort of a virtual reality simulator came from an INFP friend. She told me that she was able create daydreams with any elements she desired. For instance, if she was in a platonic relationship with someone, she could create a copy of that person in her "inner world", and then add a setting (for instance, a calm, sunny meadow) and have a perfect romantic scene in her mind with the person in question. I found that ability extremely cool.

I saw somewhere on this forum (ah! I found it, here it is: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ) where it said INFPs should be placed at the top of society. Although it struck me as nonsense at first, over the next days it grew on me the idea that ironically they have the highest potential to guide humanity as having Dom Fi, they should be the "value holders" in a society. So in fact they could very well be at the top, but not so much as a "boss who gives orders", but a boss who suggest the best values which sequentially are passed on to the lower classes (scientist, entertainers, workers) to apply them in such a way that everything that is made conforms to those limits (ex: the Atomic bomb; under this hierarchy that would never had happened as an INFP would have never allowed such a thing to be created). A very romantic idea if you ask me. The rest of the article is obviously a satire and not to be taken seriously.

Ok, last question (I don't want to abuse INFP natural disposition to help): what is the best way to get you to accept one of our 'suggestions'? For instance, hypothetical scenario: INTJ asks INFP questions (we know you love it :P). INTJ realizes that by doing a minor adjustment, INFP's life could improve substantially. How can INTJ communicate his/her vision to INFP without hurting and/or making INFP feel belittled(because you do seem to have a lot of pride)?

bethlehem

08-23-2008, 09:04 AM

I don't think that INTJs should think what to do in order an INFP to accept their point of view. There is no need of strategies, you simple need to be polite and have facts and clues. INFPs are openminded, they constantly question their own ideas and the answers they give to their questions, so, you just have to talk to an INFP and he/she will hear you no matter what. They're not like INTJs, all-knowing, arrogant and stubborn. They are very doubtful and that is why they are openminded, because they know they are not perfect not everybody else, and that they can learn from other people, as things are ever changing and they are not gods. So they can put to test and think every idea. They just don't want you to mess with their ethics and so your opinion shouldn't be contrary to their perception of Greater Good or something like that.

curiousjane

08-23-2008, 05:37 PM

What I wanted to know about INFPs...

1. what is this "fantasy world" I keep hearing about? What does it look like? What triggers it? What do you use it for? Why?
I don't really call it a fantasy world, but I can pull from a rich supply of "fantasy" versus real life into my thoughts. I "see" imaginations in technicolor. I can call up images and settings and feelings. I can visualize possibilities (I would have made a great interior designer). I can connect a
look with a feel or a memory or a sense.

When I go into what I guess you would consider my "fantasy mode" I tend to focus on just one or two things at a time. I've sat in my backyard as a child, for instance, staring down at a blade of grass, taking in every vein, the bits of dust and rock surrounding it, the ants walking around it, the way it moves with the slightest breeze. I could write a poem about that blade:

Blade of grass,
whispering in the wind,
shades the small things.
Chlorophyll gives life
to sun-speckled ridges.
The world is quiet.
Listen.

Or, I could pick it up in between my thumbs and blow on it, to make that party-horn sound.

And giggle with delight.

2. How do you communicate? Do you speak more in terms of values (Fi) or possibilities and interconnectedness (Ne)?
I think I exist in Fi, but I communicate with Ne. I'm always seeing connections and possibilities. I can't stop. And it's how I relate with everyone around me. That's why S-types are a hard read for me. They take everything as it comes, without questioning or doubting, and that is soooo foreign to me. I am constantly weighing options, looking for meaning, searching for patterns and finding interconnectedness in EVERYTHING. Relationships, ideas, visual patterns ... everything. It's innate. I can't stop.

3. What is it about INTJs that attracts you to us?
I think, for me, your quiet confidence and creative mind. I also love that you guys, like me, value open-mindedness and do not follow the status quo.

INTJs, when we get along, make me calm. And I feel like I have a similar effect on you guys, just from an emotional standpoint ... whereas I have such an unquiet mind that hanging out with somebody with your level of assurance is ... catching!

4. (This one is quite sensitive) Why is paralysis and over-thinking an issue for INFPs?
Oh my goodness. I think you hit my Achilles heal, there. Of course, most of the INTJs I know have this problem, too, just for different reasons. For instance, I find that INTJs delay action to make sure they've gone through every possible scenario and outcome in their minds. Whereas I, as an INFP, do the same thing while trying to figure out what is the BEST thing, the RIGHT thing, the decision that will provide the most positive emotional outcome and follows my inner values most accurately.

A bad decision can change a life. That's not to be taken lightly.

I think that's enough for now... thanks for tackling any or all of the above. I look forward to your insights!
Great questions. I'm not every INFP, but I hope this helps!

curiousjane added to this post, 322 minutes and 10 seconds later...

Thank you for your thoughtful answers.

I for sure know why I like INFPs: with their Zen ways they seem to produce a deep, long lasting calming effect on me that I find very refreshing(although maddening at times :P). Their empathy is also top class and that helps, because well, INTJ do have feelings, we just want you to think we don't have them.
Oh, we know, Thrifty. We know.

I have a few other questions that I would appreciate if you, or another INFP, answered:

1. Do you fear that your values could not "make sense" and that's why you choose to hide them?
Sometimes. But only because a lot of my values are not supported by much of the world today. For instance, my faith in God. Or my morals. I have coworkers who have made it their goal (albeit half jokingly) to get me "loosen up" and do any number of activities that I don't care to do ... drink shots ... let loose a string of profanities when I'm frustrated ... enjoy a casual fling here or there ... etc. I don't really hide those values, in fact they are glaringly obvious, considering the lack of doing those things is evident in the way I live.

Other values aren't as controversial, and those I may only bring out when necessary. Either way, I don't really care if other people don't share them.

I think the "values" I would try to keep on the down-low are things like I, like so many INFPs, need affirmation. I don't really like this about myself, but I though I don't base my self-worth on the affirmation of other people, I don't believe my own opinion is enough? I guess I'm embarrassed to admit this. It's not that I want to be manipulative or doubtful, but hearing another person say to me, "wow, you look nice tonight," I believe it more than if I think it on my own. INTJs in search of a romance with an INFP, take note: don't be facetious, don't lay on the flattery (we are immediately suspicious of insincerity), but if you want to make your INFP feel loved ... give him or her a genuine, heart-felt, honest compliment. Notice her outfit. Applaud his performance. Admire something she's done. Tell him when he makes you feel special.

One meaningful observation, compliment, or encouragement goes a looonnnnngggg way with us. We can glow for days.

2. Could you please expand a little bit on what are the specific functions of the fantasy world? Is it like that VR simulator in The Matrix that you can just fill with whatever elements you want? You can call on it whenever needed? How does it work? You store your ideal values there?
Wow. A Matrix example. I haven't seen that movie in years.

Specific functions of the fantasy world. I would say ... making sense of the real world. Or escaping stress. Or ... the sheer exuberance of creation.

maabus1999

08-23-2008, 09:23 PM

Hi, INTJs :)

Female INFP here.

I'm currently in an e-relationship with an INTJ. I think he's great! He's insecure socially, and he's holding the relationship at bay (i.e., postponing meeting each other). I've asked him why he's doing this and he responds by saying he's afraid I won't like him after I meet him.

Although I believe that this is *part* of the situation, I have the feeling there is more to it.

He asks questions about me (which is manna in heaven to an INFP), so I wonder if he's trying to discern whether I'm "worthy" of his commitment.

Do you, as INTJs, think I'm on the right track?

Thanks for your help!

P.S. If you have any questions regarding the mysteries of the INFP mind, I'll be happy to offer my thoughts. :)

He is definitely checking the worthy part but if he is under developed, probably still trying to analyze what to do as he has no experience and his intuition is confusing him.

I suggest coffee at a bookstore. Don't even push him for "feelings". Stay neutral and maybe discuss something that could lead you to personal revelations to both of you.

Udog

08-25-2008, 02:28 PM

First, I like and concur with Jane's reply. It's a different perspective of what is essentially the same thing.

The idea that it could be like some sort of a virtual reality simulator came from an INFP friend. She told me that she was able create daydreams with any elements she desired. For instance, if she was in a platonic relationship with someone, she could create a copy of that person in her "inner world", and then add a setting (for instance, a calm, sunny meadow) and have a perfect romantic scene in her mind with the person in question. I found that ability extremely cool.

Actually, I can see using the VR simulator metaphor to explain my world, especially if I knew they would appreciate the Sci-Fi aspect. In addition to what your friend mentioned, I've also created a simulacrum of someone in my mind, say my very wise and practical xSTJ grandfather, and had 'conversations' with him when I needed a more practical viewpoint of things. It helps me to see other perspectives.

Ok, last question (I don't want to abuse INFP natural disposition to help): what is the best way to get you to accept one of our 'suggestions'? For instance, hypothetical scenario: INTJ asks INFP questions (we know you love it :P). INTJ realizes that by doing a minor adjustment, INFP's life could improve substantially. How can INTJ communicate his/her vision to INFP without hurting and/or making INFP feel belittled(because you do seem to have a lot of pride)?

No problem about the questions - fire away! I was out this weekend, but feel free to continue on if you so desire.

Your question is a bit tough for me because I'd rather just hear it. I know this isn't true of all INFPs. Still, some things that may help...

First, INFPs will be much more receptive if we think the advice is coming from someone that cares for and respects us. Help them make the connection/revelation themselves, instead of showing them the connection and expecting them to just accept it.

The simplest action item I can offer is that you ask permission to offer advice. For example, "I don't think I understand why you are doing something. Can I offer my thoughts on the subject?" If an INFP says 'No' to a question like that, they are not ready to listen to any amount of practicality! If they say yes, and they usually will, it gives them a chance to brace themselves a bit and avoid being blindsided.

Simply trying to be respectful of our values will get you far, though. INFPs are suckers for rewarding points for effort.