"Don't Ask or I'll Tell" -- Closet or Coming Out Stories?

[firebee]

I've been doing a lot of thinking of late about the question of managing information related to my sexual orientation and gender expression, and the annoyance that comes from same.

My policy at the moment is that I'm explicitly out (as extends directly from talking about my personal life) to my friends and on the forum, that I don't take any pains to conceal my sexual orientation or gender expression from folks at school or hypothetical future coworkers, and that I'm explicitly not out to my parents -- about both sides of my bisexual orientation.

It's this latter point which is somewhat of an irritant for me. My mother's been living by a certain river in Egypt, and to a certain degree I have been too -- she's clung to the fiction that it's due to lack of style that I look kinda queer, and that if she just advises me enough I'll fix the "problem"; meanwhile, I've been clinging to the comfort of imagining that I can put off any reckoning with her issues until after I've gotten back on my feet financially.

Unfortunately, there's a finite semester and a potentially-unbounded job search between now and that happy future fantasy, and the job search in particular is likely to play on precisely the points that leave "Well, you know what? I am," right behind my tongue. We've already been in each other's company for two weekend visits in the past month, and both of them have involved some sort of conflict over my insufficiently feminine presentation. I am, consequently, twitchy.

So console me, people. Tell me humorous stories about your crazy or sane relatives (or random people on the street) dealing (or not) with your queerity, that I might laugh and stuff.

[rickster]

Well if the ever-stylish Cher couldn't glam up her former-daughter-who-is-now-a-son, then you're kind of up shit creek aren't you?

Blame the mother anyhow.

When informed of my queerity my dad spat out: "Jesus Christ - is there anything he wouldn't do to be different?"

When my mom pushed the "When are you going to settle down?" thing I lashed out with a tirade along the lines of "Why don't you get off my back and I'm my own man with my own sexuality and it's none of your damned business and anyhow I like guys as much as girls so there!!!"

Being a bitch, she simply looked at me with detached boredom and said "Like I care...I simply asked if you'd thought about settling down." Dammit - I was SO looking forward to a fight.

Such was the non-event of my coming out.

[True Rune]

"You just need to find the right girl."
"You're a liar."
"Get your hormones checked"..

To be honest, there's no point in "coming out" because either people don't give a shit or they don't believe you.

[yoginimama]

You've probably already thought of these ideas, but here they are anyway:

1) Is there any hope of telling her that, in your field, feminine presentation makes female job candidates seem less capable, and therefore, you are deliberately butching it up so as to highlight your competence?

2) Failing that, can you use formality of dress to offset sexuality of dress? If you dressed up, presenting as a smoother, more polished version of your usual self, might your mother interpret that as a gesture towards femininity-of-presentation and consider it an improvement?

[Fox]

Parents are parents. Straight, queer or whatever they give their children grief. Where I live 70% of women's fashion looks queer. For a job you dress appropriate for it.

You can humor your mother by wearing my girlie, clothes and dresses. Your negative body language in more feminine clothing might be enough to give her a hint.

[HKF]

Well if the ever-stylish Cher couldn't glam up her former-daughter-who-is-now-a-son, then you're kind of up shit creek aren't you?

Blame the mother anyhow.

When informed of my queerity my dad spat out: "Jesus Christ - is there anything he wouldn't do to be different?"

When my mom pushed the "When are you going to settle down?" thing I lashed out with a tirade along the lines of "Why don't you get off my back and I'm my own man with my own sexuality and it's none of your damned business and anyhow I like guys as much as girls so there!!!"

Being a bitch, she simply looked at me with detached boredom and said "Like I care...I simply asked if you'd thought about settling down." Dammit - I was SO looking forward to a fight.

Such was the non-event of my coming out.

I'm impressed at the non-eventfulness of your coming out. It could have been worse, isn't it?

[firebee]

Well if the ever-stylish Cher couldn't glam up her former-daughter-who-is-now-a-son, then you're kind of up shit creek aren't you?

Indeed. Alas so tragic, et cetera, I think if I was meant to be a feminine woman it would have come out before now.

But evidently a person can still hold out hope.


Such was the non-event of my coming out.

Ha, that's fairly awesome.

The same thing, more or less, happened to my boy. His family can be something of a high-drama environment, to put it very mildly, and when he was a teenager circumstances led to him having to come out to his father. It went something like this:

Boy (with much trepidation): "Dad, I like guys."

Dad: "Yeah? I know."

Boy: "No, I mean like, I really like guys."

Dad: "Right. That's what I figured. I've known that for awhile."

End coming out.


1) Is there any hope of telling her that, in your field, feminine presentation makes female job candidates seem less capable, and therefore, you are deliberately butching it up so as to highlight your competence?

2) Failing that, can you use formality of dress to offset sexuality of dress? If you dressed up, presenting as a smoother, more polished version of your usual self, might your mother interpret that as a gesture towards femininity-of-presentation and consider it an improvement?

Ha, there's an amusing story about those very things, actually.

There are a variety of code words that get used for this sort of thing -- "intimidating" would be one that's seen some use, and "soften" would be another that's been introduced recently. Sample sentence: "You need to soften your appearance because you're looking for a job, and you don't want to look too intimidating to the interviewer." Mad lib as appropriate.

So, a couple weeks ago on one of these weekend visits, a trip to a clothing store in the area kind of turns into a suit-shopping expedition on account of the saleslady bringing by a very nice pair of charcoal gray pants that happen to match a very nice suit jacket, both of which are compatible with a hot pink collared shirt... The full outfit, once assembled, is approximately the most awesome formal business wear that I have had thus far on my body. And about the minute that my dad and I have finished going over all the reasons why the suit is awesome, my mother says "Okay, now all you need to do is figure out how to soften it."

At this point it is very fortunate that I do not have a little LED banner on my forehead that displays everything that passes through my brain, because at this moment it would read "Soften this? Fuck that shit." I translate, in this case by holding up the collar and saying "It's pink." Grudging acceptance dawns.

Later, as we're walking somewhere or another without my father, I comment that it's interesting that I need to "soften" my appearance in order to not "intimidate" people whereas I'm fairly sure that nobody's ever said such a thing to my father despite the fact that he's been taken for an air marshal on more than one occasion. Says my mother, "He's a man." Says I, "My point." My side of the ensuing discussion more or less follows point 2 above regarding the notion that appearing strong, forthright, and such like hardly constituted a negative as far as job interviewing goes -- to which she responded that one could still look sufficiently powerful while displaying lots of feminine markers, and "A woman needs to look like what she is."

Yeah. You can guess what that hypothetical LED banner would read at that moment.

And this is the main thing that chafes about my decision to avoid parental conflict for now -- I have a certain love for delivering the verbal knife when a huge opening is given, I'm in a target-rich environment, and yet... "Must not shred. Must not shred. Must not shred."

So, do those ideas work? Yes and no. As far as work wear goes, I'm actually surprisingly non-radical given the way I've introduced my problem. At a jeans-and-polo-shirt office (roughly the mean standard around here), I'd wear... jeans and a polo shirt. That fit me, hence most likely female versions of these items.

What makes me a Genuine Gender Bender is the things I don't do -- I don't usually wear makeup outside of interviews and presentations, I don't wear female-type shoes (pleading my knees, although really it's because I hate them), and I generally object to feminizing style elements other than cutting the item to fit the female form (e.g. mis-proportioned suit jackets, collars with rounded-off points, ruffles and gathers (particularly boob-gathers), overly-fanciful prints, unduly limp fabric, and pants lacking pockets), partly because many such elements look objectively awful on me, and the rest of them don't fit my personality well. Plus which, my hair is about an inch long at the moment and is exhibiting an annoying tendency to take the form of a fauxhawk (with gel) or a dandelion (without). Experimentation is ongoing as to how a more dignified effect might be produced.

The basic problem seems to come down to that "A woman should dress like what she is." I agree with this point, actually; I think it is important for a person's style to reflect their nature, lest they look like they're wearing someone else's clothes. The problem lies in that my mother and I have different opinions on just what it is that I is -- and from my perspective, it looks rather like she doesn't like my version of me.

[larkin]

I suppose I'm lucky in a way, because I didn't have to worry about coming out to my parents. By the time I talked about it with my brother and friends it was a non-issue. And at work, it's not something that's public knowledge, but not something particularly hidden, either. I'm friends with enough people I work with that I'm assuming it's a known quantity. So no dramatic story to tell.

One person I've not talked to about it - my ex-boyfriend. I see him around town occasionally, and can't bring myself to talk about it. I don't know that I see a need - we do not talk about other relationships - but I also don't want him to find out another way. So my solution thus far has been total inaction. I think it's working...

[INTroJect]

You dont need to come out. Its none of theirs or anybody business if you like to take it in the can. Leave them guessing in perpetuitiy or until they find out by consequential evidence, like, for example, wedding invitations. Otherwise wait for them to ask and then answer the question as you please, if you dont like their reaction you can always blame them for the intrusion. Its not like you want or need to hear about the details regarding the sexlife between your parents, what is it that they need to know about and give their opinion about yours?

You can always take that position while you are dependent on them. When you are out of the house and independent then you can more neutrally say "Oah BTW...".

Any flings that they come across now, if you need to, you could just say that they are friends. They really dont need to know any more than that.

[rickster]

Since I'm partial to most things boyish, I'm the last person on earth who'd be offering reliable tips on how to fem up your act. I don't know any drag queens so I took the matter under consultation from some near and dear heterosexual women:

Half-sister /aging beauty queen / cougar: "Too-short haircut? No problem! Eye-catching earrings that dont dangle & cake on the eye make-up! A sporty-type gal's best friend is chic!"

Cousin / arch old-school feminist / anti-cosmetic: "Lose the pink: it's symbolic of everything wretched about pomo feminism."

Can you work with that? :)

[INTroJect]

Yeah. I dont think INTJs do a good job at that femmy gay thing. This is going to sound kind of strange but one day I was in the shower trying to imagine what an INTJ drag queen or tranny would look like and the image does not come up at all. It all takes too much estetic work and its beyond our realm.

[firebee]

Any flings that they come across now, if you need to, you could just say that they are friends. They really dont need to know any more than that.

This is true, and it is how I manage the situation presently. What isn't obvious, though, unless you've lived the experience or conducted the thought experiment very thoroughly, is just how much of a disjoint can occur between reality-as-exists and reality-as-described when you're having relatively regular conversations about the details of your personal life, with people who can't know many of the salient details of your personal life.

How are you spending your time, if not with your casual bisexual boyfriend? If you call it a relationship, what happens when it's been a year-long relationship, and they want to meet the person that they think you might marry? If you call it a friendship -- a friendship, with a person of the opposite sex, that you're spending a fair bit of time with? Are you interested in him? Is he interested in you? If he's married, is he trying to cheat on his wife with you? (Hint: The answer "no, when I had sex with him it was with the full knowledge and consent of his wife," is not the right way to handle this.) Do you invent a crowd of friends to surround that person so that you're not "dating"? Do you round him up to "gay", either based largely on reality or a bit of a stretch from aspects of his dating history? What happens if you then actually decide to acknowledge being attracted to and possibly pursuing that person who you previously asserted as being gay?

What do you do when the apparent fact that you have no friends, no relationships, no prospects for relationships, and talk to nobody about nothing leads your interlocutor to conclude that you're dangerously socially isolated and possibly depressed? When they start pressing more for you to do more social activities, and to tell them more details of things you've done? When they start trying to set you up with people? How do you deal with that curiosity that is fueled by somewhat-enmeshed concern for your well-being, without confronting them with the notion that you're hiding something or alternatively spending a lot of time and effort making things up that will surely bite you in the future?

And, in all actual honesty, how do you interact with the people that you're not trying to hide half your life from? Who have been your friends for years? Who you actually are trying to pursue a relationship with? What does it look like to these people, when you're engaged in all manner of contortions to avoid all these little minefields? How do you explain to them why you think you have to do this, when the reasons are buried in years of subtext and implication, and the bald recounting looks amazingly thin -- or, alternatively, makes the relationship look plainly unviable? Do you keep on coming back to your friends with support and sanity checks for the same problem that you've been having in some form or another your entire life? Where, despite knowing the measure of the problem for the past decade, you still haven't managed to get over it yet? Or do you not do that, so as not to impose or look foolish, and have this big thing that you're carrying around and telling nobody about?

Why do you continue to do this, anyway, given all the things that it costs you? What are you at risk of -- a series of awkward phone calls? Really? When other folks have been beaten, or thrown out on the street? Or killed? If you're concerned about spending the holidays in another state with your transportation home in the control of people who can't see the difference between harm to you and harm to them, and who are apt to unilaterally conclude that your sexual orientation (were they to know about it) is harming you/them, why not just skip it? Because of more awkward phone calls? Really? Because you think that they'll say mean things about your friends, when one of your major hobbies is making macrame out of the intestines of people who say vaguely unkind things about you? Why would you feel an obligation to be an amateur therapist in a situation that a professional therapist would refuse to take on? Alternatively, if you accept that the other person's issues are their issues, why can you be led around by the nose by the prospect of them being hurt as a consequence of these issues which don't belong to you?

Is this doable? Yes, it is. Is it trivial? Hardly.

[INTroJect]

This is true, and it is how I manage the situation presently. What isn't obvious, though, unless you've lived the experience or conducted the thought experiment very thoroughly, is just how much of a disjoint can occur between reality-as-exists and reality-as-described when you're having relatively regular conversations about the details of your personal life, with people who can't know many of the salient details of your personal life.

How are you spending your time, if not with your casual bisexual boyfriend? If you call it a relationship, what happens when it's been a year-long relationship, and they want to meet the person that they think you might marry? If you call it a friendship -- a friendship, with a person of the opposite sex, that you're spending a fair bit of time with? Are you interested in him? Is he interested in you? If he's married, is he trying to cheat on his wife with you? (Hint: The answer "no, when I had sex with him it was with the full knowledge and consent of his wife," is not the right way to handle this.) Do you invent a crowd of friends to surround that person so that you're not "dating"? Do you round him up to "gay", either based largely on reality or a bit of a stretch from aspects of his dating history? What happens if you then actually decide to acknowledge being attracted to and possibly pursuing that person who you previously asserted as being gay?

What do you do when the apparent fact that you have no friends, no relationships, no prospects for relationships, and talk to nobody about nothing leads your interlocutor to conclude that you're dangerously socially isolated and possibly depressed? When they start pressing more for you to do more social activities, and to tell them more details of things you've done? When they start trying to set you up with people? How do you deal with that curiosity that is fueled by somewhat-enmeshed concern for your well-being, without confronting them with the notion that you're hiding something or alternatively spending a lot of time and effort making things up that will surely bite you in the future?

And, in all actual honesty, how do you interact with the people that you're not trying to hide half your life from? Who have been your friends for years? Who you actually are trying to pursue a relationship with? What does it look like to these people, when you're engaged in all manner of contortions to avoid all these little minefields? How do you explain to them why you think you have to do this, when the reasons are buried in years of subtext and implication, and the bald recounting looks amazingly thin -- or, alternatively, makes the relationship look plainly unviable? Do you keep on coming back to your friends with support and sanity checks for the same problem that you've been having in some form or another your entire life? Where, despite knowing the measure of the problem for the past decade, you still haven't managed to get over it yet? Or do you not do that, so as not to impose or look foolish, and have this big thing that you're carrying around and telling nobody about?

Why do you continue to do this, anyway, given all the things that it costs you? What are you at risk of -- a series of awkward phone calls? Really? When other folks have been beaten, or thrown out on the street? Or killed? If you're concerned about spending the holidays in another state with your transportation home in the control of people who can't see the difference between harm to you and harm to them, and who are apt to unilaterally conclude that your sexual orientation (were they to know about it) is harming you/them, why not just skip it? Because of more awkward phone calls? Really? Because you think that they'll say mean things about your friends, when one of your major hobbies is making macrame out of the intestines of people who say vaguely unkind things about you? Why would you feel an obligation to be an amateur therapist in a situation that a professional therapist would refuse to take on? Alternatively, if you accept that the other person's issues are their issues, why can you be led around by the nose by the prospect of them being hurt as a consequence of these issues which don't belong to you?

Is this doable? Yes, it is. Is it trivial? Hardly.


Doable - Yes
Trivial - not at all

Being a gay military veteran, I am all too familiar with this. Very very very familiar. And its not fair for us to be faced with these decisions either in the military or out but the decision has to be made. When I took in your situation earlier I understood it to be something isolated with your parents for a fixed period of time, and that you would eventually reconcile the disparity on your own terms. This post is describing the gay conundrum that we all have to deal with, all the time. And the straight world doesnt give us much leeway either. Like if I enjoy someone's company (not romantically) and never tell them that im gay and they find out later its like I am being deceptive because there was an incorrect assumption that I was straight. Or, if I let someone in on it suddenly now im "the gay guy" and im supposed to pick out their fucking curtains for them.

Not to mention being in the service and having to deal with the conversations assumign that I was straight, like "Hey Ya'll lets go to the whorehouse!" "Oah, you dont want to go fuck prostitutes with us? Why not?". The policy may be don't ask dont tell but its the person who answers the question who gets punished for it. Or, you are in training and the Seargeant wants to talk to the class about beating up faggots. You just have to sit there and listen to it. Gays get deamonized for their faults (some might say sins) but it seems that whatever the heteros do, well, thats just supposed to be human nature.

I feel your situation. Really I do. And you describe the overall issues very accurately.

---------- Post added 08-25-2010 at 04:07 AM ----------

Oah, and while im on the podium here im not finished...

Ever walk into a sports bar or a regular bar? Listen to what they talk about. If you sit back and observe without our regular notions of what is acceptable or not the whole scene is quite vile and disgusting. The talking about - fucking bitches, boobs, tits, asses, previous escapades. They get drunk, fight, vomit, DUI, etc etc. Theese same people who would soberly disaprove of "the gay lifestyle", whatever that is supposed to mean.

I was in japan for a short while and a servicemember raped a girl there and was bragging about it the next day before he got caught. All this talk blaming and deamonizing gays, and trying to pass laws and whatnot for "protection" from them, it seems that when a servicemember rapes a girl theres nothing morally wrong or sick about being heterosexual, it was the person who did it, a completely isolated incident. But keep those icky fags away. I didnt know him well enough but I wouldnt be suprised if he was one of the guys who would sit at work and long to go back to the days of hunting out the queers so he could feel safe from those people. Expressing such an opinion in a conversation at work may be a bit crass but its not unacceptable.

Thankfully the world is changing very fast and moving away from these things and im very grateful for it.

[larkin]

This is true, and it is how I manage the situation presently. What isn't obvious, though, unless you've lived the experience or conducted the thought experiment very thoroughly, is just how much of a disjoint can occur between reality-as-exists and reality-as-described when you're having relatively regular conversations about the details of your personal life, with people who can't know many of the salient details of your personal life.

How are you spending your time, if not with your casual bisexual boyfriend? If you call it a relationship, what happens when it's been a year-long relationship, and they want to meet the person that they think you might marry? If you call it a friendship -- a friendship, with a person of the opposite sex, that you're spending a fair bit of time with? Are you interested in him? Is he interested in you? If he's married, is he trying to cheat on his wife with you? (Hint: The answer "no, when I had sex with him it was with the full knowledge and consent of his wife," is not the right way to handle this.) Do you invent a crowd of friends to surround that person so that you're not "dating"? Do you round him up to "gay", either based largely on reality or a bit of a stretch from aspects of his dating history? What happens if you then actually decide to acknowledge being attracted to and possibly pursuing that person who you previously asserted as being gay?

What do you do when the apparent fact that you have no friends, no relationships, no prospects for relationships, and talk to nobody about nothing leads your interlocutor to conclude that you're dangerously socially isolated and possibly depressed? When they start pressing more for you to do more social activities, and to tell them more details of things you've done? When they start trying to set you up with people? How do you deal with that curiosity that is fueled by somewhat-enmeshed concern for your well-being, without confronting them with the notion that you're hiding something or alternatively spending a lot of time and effort making things up that will surely bite you in the future?

And, in all actual honesty, how do you interact with the people that you're not trying to hide half your life from? Who have been your friends for years? Who you actually are trying to pursue a relationship with? What does it look like to these people, when you're engaged in all manner of contortions to avoid all these little minefields? How do you explain to them why you think you have to do this, when the reasons are buried in years of subtext and implication, and the bald recounting looks amazingly thin -- or, alternatively, makes the relationship look plainly unviable? Do you keep on coming back to your friends with support and sanity checks for the same problem that you've been having in some form or another your entire life? Where, despite knowing the measure of the problem for the past decade, you still haven't managed to get over it yet? Or do you not do that, so as not to impose or look foolish, and have this big thing that you're carrying around and telling nobody about?

Why do you continue to do this, anyway, given all the things that it costs you? What are you at risk of -- a series of awkward phone calls? Really? When other folks have been beaten, or thrown out on the street? Or killed? If you're concerned about spending the holidays in another state with your transportation home in the control of people who can't see the difference between harm to you and harm to them, and who are apt to unilaterally conclude that your sexual orientation (were they to know about it) is harming you/them, why not just skip it? Because of more awkward phone calls? Really? Because you think that they'll say mean things about your friends, when one of your major hobbies is making macrame out of the intestines of people who say vaguely unkind things about you? Why would you feel an obligation to be an amateur therapist in a situation that a professional therapist would refuse to take on? Alternatively, if you accept that the other person's issues are their issues, why can you be led around by the nose by the prospect of them being hurt as a consequence of these issues which don't belong to you?

Yeah, reading this was a bit painful, even though I just described my coming out (I feel the need to disqualify because I'm bi - which does spare you some of the alienation, but not all) as completely non-traumatic. My coming out was relatively painless. It was all the staying in that was painful.

It sounds oversimplified - and I'm not just trying to win a toaster, here - but there really is one solution to that, and it's total honesty. I look back and desperately wish I had ripped that band-aid off sooner. It was what it was; I wasn't even aware of interest in women until after college, and even then only convinced I wanted to pursue relationships with women when faced with the prospect of marriage, so I doubt it could have been much sooner. But how much time I wasted! Asking questions about it alone, pretending I was comfortable in a relationship that I couldn't be open about, all of the absurd evasiveness with just the people I wanted to share it with the most. It can all stop. You don't have to make a dramatic confession if you don't want to, or "come out" by Lone INTJ's reckoning; you can just dispense with the lying.

A big part of this, it seems, are these larger issues with your family that honestly have nothing to do with your sexuality, but tying them together makes it seem overwhelming. The amount of control/involvement/approval you want your family to have in your life is your decision, and yours alone. But once you start being honest, it will stop a lot of the questions. A statement like this:


I think it is important for a person's style to reflect their nature, lest they look like they're wearing someone else's clothes. The problem lies in that my mother and I have different opinions on just what it is that I is -- and from my perspective, it looks rather like she doesn't like my version of me.


Will be followed by the appropriate perspective, which is - while my mom not seeming to approve of me can be painful, the reality is that's her problem, not mine, and I sincerely don't need to answer to anyone.

Some people, when they hear statements like this, think "easier said than done." I promise you, most people who've done it think the opposite. Living life the way described in your post is hard. Compared to that, telling the people around you who you actually are is easy.

[Anhedonic Lake]

.....tranny would look like and the image does not come up at all. It all takes too much estetic work and its beyond our realm.

Just to raise awareness; terms such as tranny and shemale are as offensive to transsexuals as the terms faggot and poof are to gay men.

[plotthickens]

Can't help with the coming out, but can kick ass about pro attire. Sears (surprisingly) has excellent non-feminine suits for larger professional women. A step down from that 'formal' is Lane Bryant, where 10 pairs of $30 slacks, 5 cami tops and 5 button-down shirts are not overly girly, gets ya covered for 2 workweeks, are the equivalent of what males wear, and are just as little trouble.

[larkin]

Also, this specific answer to this question:

Do you keep on coming back to your friends with support and sanity checks for the same problem that you've been having in some form or another your entire life?

is yes, of course you do. When you finally talk about it, it stops being a "problem" with your sexuality and starts just being part of the very human and universal need for a meaningful relationship, full stop.

I've listened to my almost entirely straight friends talk about dating their entire life, and don't think of it as a problem that's unresolved. Just part of their life, and part of the friend thing.

[yoginimama]

A big part of this, it seems, are these larger issues with your family that honestly have nothing to do with your sexuality

Yeah, this is true. If/when you do come out to your mom, that might not necessarily make her back off on changing your appearance. "Duh, I look this way because I'm bisexual" may be obvious to you--but it may not be obvious to her. She might keep right on encouraging you to "look like a woman," and in fact, she might redouble her efforts, mistakenly believing that it will "help" you "fit in" or some such thing.

Coming out is one issue; the boundaries you set with your family is another one.

And all people struggle with family boundaries/relationships, all their lives. It's an ongoing negotiation.

[TigerL]

Heterosexual here but wanted to chime in on two things:

1. Fashion: Go for neutral (black/ brown/ khaki/ olive, etc.) colored clothing as they work with everything and aren't really seen as either feminine or masculine. Skip overly feminine accessories. I like make-up but since it doesn't suit you, just go for well-groomed -- e.g. clean healthy skin, moisturizer with sunscreen, colorless lip balm, trimmed eye-brows, etc.

2. Work: If you listen and probe people about their lives, they're more likely to talk and less likely to ask you questions. Most people like to talk about themselves. Also, pick one or two topics you're genuinely interested in -- mine are food/ travel -- and small talk about that with them. I'm pretty good at small talk when I put my mind to it and value my privacy so I avoid talking about my personal life with co-workers.

[INTroJect]

Just to raise awareness; terms such as tranny and shemale are as offensive to transsexuals as the terms faggot and poof are to gay men.

Ill have to check that with the transexuals who I know who refer to themselves as such. Personally I use faggot, queer, homo, queen, etc quite interchangably depending on the context. Its really easy to nitpick on terminology but the awareness issue is not the words but the mentality behind them. Its strange how the ones who take the biggest effort at being politically correct are usually the biggest biggots. As if somehow that makes it ok as long as they use the right words.

However, we can be terminology-friendly if that pleases you.

---------- Post added 08-25-2010 at 05:29 PM ----------

Heterosexual here but wanted to chime in on two things:

1. Fashion: Go for neutral (black/ brown/ khaki/ olive, etc.) colored clothing as they work with everything and aren't really seen as either feminine or masculine. Skip overly feminine accessories. I like make-up but since it doesn't suit you, just go for well-groomed -- e.g. clean healthy skin, moisturizer with sunscreen, colorless lip balm, trimmed eye-brows, etc.

What? Trimmed eye-brows??? Like thats not a giveaway.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Just kill the unibrow if you have one. They make you look waaay hetero, but its in a really bad way. Like stare at water and make it boil kind of bad.

[cannotseethe]

So console me, people. Tell me humorous stories about your crazy or sane relatives (or random people on the street) dealing (or not) with your queerity, that I might laugh and stuff.

I'm your run of the mill heterosexual male, so cannot and wouldn't presume to speak directly to the issues surrounding sexual orientation you're facing. I can, however, supply a related story steeped in boundary issues, fear, and maybe a touch of humor.

I have this half-assed and I hope not unintentionally offensive notion that I in fact came out to my parents--as straight. You see, for much of my teenage years and early 20s, the folks believed I was gay. Reasons? I never brought a girlfriend home. I never talked about women. I never, in their eyes, engaged in the acts typical of a young man.

It's interesting to me still that they saw fit to state this belief on a fairly regular basis, not just to me but to other family members and even friends of family. It "casually" came up in conversation at family gatherings, sometimes in hushed tones (why doesn't he have a girlfriend?), sometimes in I'm-saying-this-louder-than-necessary-to-ensure-you-know-I'm-saying-it attempts at corrective shaming.

Of course, it didn't dawn on them that the reason I never brought a girlfriend home was precisely to avoid the boundary-trampling commentary doing so would surely generate. The reason I didn't talk about women I knew was that I had no interest in hearing the inevitable questions concerning their breast size and capabilities in bed. And it wasn't that I didn't engage in typical young male shenanigans--though I did find many of those distasteful--it was that I had no interest in discussing such things with my parents. No, clearly I was not interested in women, which just as clearly entailed I was interested in men.

Did I mention I said "I'm not gay"? A lot?

The absurdity hit its apex when the family traveled to Cape Cod, MA for a summer vacation and stopped in Provincetown for a day. For those unaware, Provincetown features bed and breakfasts with blurbs like this on their web sites:
Provincetown has everything needed for whatever your taste and mood is at any given moment! Lie in the sun on awesome beaches... bike or hike along exquisite nature trails... shop 'til you drop at lively boutiques... original artists and their works abound... catch a live play, enjoy a cabaret or drag show, or a movie with popcorn... Gay and Lesbian interests abound... dance to music spun by top DJs from New York, Miami, and beyond. Chances are that once you are in Provincetown you won’t want to go home!

and what-to-do sites with taglines like "Welcome to Provincetown: Where Gay Life is Everywhere (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)."

Try to envision how two parents who believe their eldest son is gay without positive evidence--and vocally express their desire to correct this--handle a town where "gay life is everywhere." If you see something like a squirrel on speed running across I-95 you're doing it right. Where before my perceived lack of overt heterosexual behavior was the primary focus of scrutiny, in one day the scope expanded to include everything from my style of dress to how I carried myself. Wearing a button-down shirt with too many buttons buttoned? Gay. That thing you do there when you walk? Gay. Not cracking the proper jokes? Gay.

I chose, and continue to choose, to handle my relationship with my parents by concealing whatever they've proven unable to respect. This strategy created considerable friction when I lived with them as well as when I was in college but still financially dependent. Power of the purse and whatnot. However, that friction was an investment in a future that included the priceless look on my parents' faces when I told them, as a fully-independent 23-year-old person no longer under their sway, that I was living with a woman they'd never met nor heard about before and hey, we might even get married some day. My coming out as a heterosexual to my parents day was a joyous one.

Now, I wouldn't advise one to cut off all, or even most, contact with their parents unless they were truly septic human beings. I can say, though, that if you're careful, all the moments suffered now just might pay off in very satisfying crow and egg later.

[rickster]

I have this half-assed and I hope not unintentionally offensive notion that I in fact came out to my parents--as straight. You see, for much of my teenage years and early 20s, the folks believed I was gay. Reasons? I never brought a girlfriend home. I never talked about women. I never, in their eyes, engaged in the acts typical of a young man.

Far from being offensive, it absolutely goes to the core of "coming out".

Looked at superficially, queers can moan the unfairness of having to come out in a society which assumes and promotes acceptable heterosexuality. This is true to a point, but it's not the full story.

Coming out as a heterosexual male often means physically asserting yourself over a father who refuses to step down as the figure of male potency with all females who come under his roof. Families deny the punchups surrounding teenage dating and car-borrowing, but they're a staple of the coming out process for heterosexual males. A clinging mother has to be "hurt" until she also gets her son's passage, and realizes that she's no longer the number one female in his life.

But Firebee's problems aren't specifically homo or hetero: they are the unique problems of coming out as a bisexual as I see it.

The integrity issue is magnified because it's much more difficult (for a bisexual) to resolve an unintegrated lifestyle across the many zones of (what should be) an integrated lifestyle. Add to that her (obvious) personal integrity, and you have a major conflict.

Playing armchair therapist, I'm sensing a lot of enmeshing and boundary issues, with their origins in the family dynamic.

If that's the case then it would be quite foolish to blast into a disorganized coming out which may not resonate with it's desired audience. You really have to be in charge of your own coming out. :)

[yoginimama]

Coming out as a heterosexual male often means physically asserting yourself over a father who refuses to step down as the figure of male potency with all females who come under his roof. Families deny the punchups surrounding teenage dating and car-borrowing, but they're a staple of the coming out process for heterosexual males. A clinging mother has to be "hurt" until she also gets her son's passage, and realizes that she's no longer the number one female in his life.

I think there can be similar issues for heterosexual females as well. Heterosexual males have dominance issues with their dads and individuation issues with their moms, while heterosexual females often have shame, fear and jealousy issues. Shame due to the fact that sexually receptive desires still provoke a great deal of un-ease in our culture; fear due to the question of whether sexually active young women of any orientation are really safe; and jealousy because the young woman is in the flower of her beauty and desirability, which can bring up issues for an aging mom (AND a dad, for that matter).

[INTroJect]

Ive been to p-town. All the talk gave me such high expectation but it was such a letdown. Was the trip supposed to be a "look honey, dont be like these people" kind of excursion?

---------- Post added 08-25-2010 at 08:47 PM ----------

I think there can be similar issues for heterosexual females as well. Heterosexual males have dominance issues with their dads and individuation issues with their moms, while heterosexual females often have shame, fear and jealousy issues. Shame due to the fact that sexually receptive desires still provoke a great deal of un-ease in our culture; fear due to the question of whether sexually active young women of any orientation are really safe; and jealousy because the young woman is in the flower of her beauty and desirability, which can bring up issues for an aging mom (AND a dad, for that matter).

Im not sure what you mean issues for an aging mom or dad. What do you mean by that?

[firebee]

You don't have to make a dramatic confession if you don't want to, or "come out" by Lone INTJ's reckoning; you can just dispense with the lying.

That's more or less what I plan to do, actually. I've entertained the "showdown at the OK Corral" approach to the matter, and it fails to satisfy; much as I can be a bit of a drama queen sometimes, it's not drama that I want but rather resolute honesty.

I do see the present situation as being a time-limited one -- at the moment, I think the main obstacle is that my financial situation makes self-protection more difficult. To take the largest example: The holiday season is coming up, and all of my family lives out of state. Because I don't have any money, my folks would be making the travel arrangements -- arrangements in which I'd be sharing a hotel room with them, be transported in their rental car, et cetera. Consequence of this being that under the present circumstances, if I were to go on those trips as an out bi person or if my sense entirely left me and I came out over the turkey, my options for retreat from an unpleasant environment are reduced to the nuclear.

My plan is basically that once I've built my secret underground bunker, I'll simply turn the "admits to being a sexual person" switch to "on", and certain parts of what is currently evasion or silence will be filled instead with statements such as "Well, I am attracted to women, and I am pursuing dating them." When I visualize these scenarios, the various ends wrap up much better if in certain cases I take my leave and take my own rental car to my own hotel room -- or decline phone conversations, and not have to call back for money.


A big part of this, it seems, are these larger issues with your family that honestly have nothing to do with your sexuality, but tying them together makes it seem overwhelming.

The trouble I find is in separating them -- the bisexuality thing has its own identity, but as a potentially contentious topic it's so close to the rest of the issues that they all seem to have a way of coming with. And probably for good reason; after all, if I thought that coming out was nearly certain to be a reasonably "safe" experience, I'd have done it already.

Can't help with the coming out, but can kick ass about pro attire. Sears (surprisingly) has excellent non-feminine suits for larger professional women. A step down from that 'formal' is Lane Bryant, where 10 pairs of $30 slacks, 5 cami tops and 5 button-down shirts are not overly girly, gets ya covered for 2 workweeks, are the equivalent of what males wear, and are just as little trouble.

That's pretty close to what I do, although I'm not necessarily sure that I rise to the level of "kicking ass". Offhand, I'd say that I get the most satisfactory result at workplaces where jeans are within the expected wardrobe, as I have a faint dislike for less-than-formal slacks and quite like the result of combining a nice pair of jeans with a dress shirt.

Yeah, this is true. If/when you do come out to your mom, that might not necessarily make her back off on changing your appearance. "Duh, I look this way because I'm bisexual" may be obvious to you--but it may not be obvious to her. She might keep right on encouraging you to "look like a woman," and in fact, she might redouble her efforts, mistakenly believing that it will "help" you "fit in" or some such thing.


I do see this as one of the paths that is likely to be traversed at some point. The issue is the truth, and the truth is that I have the appearance that I have and I'm bisexual -- neither of which can be wholly isolated from the rest of my life. Hence, for instance, if I'm told that I need to dress differently because I presumably want to attract men and not women, the answer to that is both the answer I gave -- that I do attract men -- and the answers I didn't give, inclusive of "I want to attract women also." Or -- another common thing that comes up -- the notion that a prospective employer might perceive me as a lesbian, and therefore not hire me. Personally, I think this possibility is somewhat unlikely -- and also, since I am a person who is attracted to women, it would be unwise of me to pursue an initial appearance of compatibility with a company that would decline to hire a person who appeared pleasant and professional yet insufficiently feminine and potentially queer.

If I'm known as queer, it will indeed become all the more important for me to appear feminine -- first, most likely, because if I appear feminine I'm not really queer, and then after that fails because if I can't be straight I can at least look it. That, and my friend who's taken advantage of me and kept me from being in a Relationship will become my friend who turned me gay, there must be something wrong with my hormones, the classic "Have you considered seeing someone about it?" (which won't last long, given the obvious response), and, of course, the spiral of panic.

Coming out's going to be an exacerbation of these things, not a solution to them. But I'm not willing to put up indefinitely with the aforementioned strain of concealment, so it's an matter that I'm going to have to deal with.

[Anhedonic Lake]

Ill have to check that with the transexuals who I know who refer to themselves as such. Personally I use faggot, queer, homo, queen, etc quite interchangably depending on the context. Its really easy to nitpick on terminology but the awareness issue is not the words but the mentality behind them. Its strange how the ones who take the biggest effort at being politically correct are usually the biggest biggots. As if somehow that makes it ok as long as they use the right words.

However, we can be terminology-friendly if that pleases you.

Well some blacks refer to themselves as niggers and some lesbians refer to themselves as dykes but they're still considered offensive as a general rule. I know transsexuals who do take offense to the terms tranny and shemale.
Yes, the intent behind the words is important ,but so is raising consciosness of such issues.

[rickster]

Well some blacks refer to themselves as niggers and some lesbians refer to themselves as dykes but they're still considered offensive as a general rule. I know transsexuals who do take offense to the terms tranny and shemale.
Yes, the intent behind the words is important ,but so is raising consciosness of such issues.

Uncensored usage of allegedly offensive derogatory words defuses their power to wound, and has the added plus of alerting all to what's actually being said, and by whom.

If you can't work out for yourself what's derogatory language usage then all the PC Nazis in the world will be off little assistance to you in the long run. :)

[yoginimama]

Im not sure what you mean issues for an aging mom or dad. What do you mean by that?

Many aging women remember themselves as having been attractive to the preferred sex in their youth. As they get older and they perceive less people to be noticing them, they can feel a lot of grief, loss, wistfulness and jealousy when they see their teen- and twentysomething daughters getting admiring looks.

For dads, the young men pursued by a heterosexual daughter can have the same effect--reminding the dads that they're aging, that they're no longer as attractive to the cohort of women that our society holds up as Extra Super-Awesome (i.e. youthful ones).

under the present circumstances, if I were to go on those trips as an out bi person or if my sense entirely left me and I came out over the turkey, my options for retreat from an unpleasant environment are reduced to the nuclear.

That is indeed a tough situation. Also, the meddling you anticipate later in your post is painful too. I would imagine that when you break the news to your parents (once you've attained the measure of independence you need), it might be a good idea to establish some boundaries along with that. ("NO 'FIXING' ME!")

[Zilal]

One thing that strikes me is that you seem to have played out many scenarios in your head... our heads can come up with stuff that's much scarier than anything that can happen in real life. It's possible it'd really be as bad as you think, or even worse, but chances are at least something about your family's reaction will be a pleasant surprise. And if not, well, the relief at not having to hide things anymore is a pretty big deal.

Does anyone know of someone who actually regrets coming out, or coming out as soon as they did?

[Valiyn]

I came out as a transsexual a week after coming out to them as an atheist (I thought they would talk the later worse....not that they took it well to begin with).

That was a very long time ago and just today I had an exorcism preformed on me by them....Holy water and everything. To remove the evil spirits of Atheism and Transsexuality....

Just got to give people time. If they really love you, eventually they'll come around and will love you as strongly as they did when they only knew the mask used to hide behind. Mine just aren't there yet after all these years.

[Blackwark]

My first coming out was to my cousin. Ha already knew. Next was my brother. He had no idea and was alright with it after he thought about it for a couple days. My father found out because he saw my internet browsing history. Sadly, I had not discovered how to delete that yet, but that gave him a year before I officially came out to get used to the idea. In typical "my father" fashion, he said he was fine with it and bought me a couple books. One on puberty and growing up, another on sexuality, and one called "chicken soup for the teenage soul". Yup. That's my dad.
My mother knew already, both intuitively and, of course, my browsing history (I really liked my porn at 13. Nothing like the early days of exploration). Apparently, I'd done a couple things growing up that made her think "huh... well he might be gay. Can't tell yet." Of course, it helped her insight that she was bisexual and noticed things most didn't.
My grandparents, heavily christian people, knew because of (flarking surprise) my browsing history. They know, but they don't talk about it. I know they think I'm going to hell, but they love me far too much to say that. And based on me, they've changed pretty much their entire view on all gays being effeminate flamers bearing crosses.
The rest of my cousins I told with literally no incident besides one of them letting me know, a year later, that he's kinda bi. Like 60% straight.

So, to sum it up, my family was fine with it. Go figure. All that stressing out about it for nothing. Not even a good fight.

My "friends" (a term I use loosely because I've never had close friends. I keep them at arms length)? completely different stories. One punched me in the gut and never talked to me again. Several took all of high school to deal with it and be okay. A couple dealt with it just fine.

[Fox]

You must have been looking at a lot of porn. Kinda funny to hear how all the family is reviewing your browsing history.

[Blackwark]

Well, to be fair, my father very nearly walked in on me, uh, enjoying myself. He had reason to look. My mother just likes to see what she's looked at recently and see if she wants to look again.
And my grandfather has had teenagers in his house before and knew full well what to expect about porn. He was not, however, expecting the gay.
And I looked at a lot of porn back then. I still look at a fair amount, but nowhere near the same level.
And now I'm pickier about my porn.

... Is there a porn thread? not just pictures and links, I don't think those are allowed, but just views on it, frequency of it, etc.