But actually I'm right, I just want to be polite.

[DrEast]

"Take that with a grain of salt." "I could be wrong, of course." "Now, there could be information that I'm lacking." "This is only how I see it." "But that's just me."

As INTJ's, we know that behind each and every one of these phrases is the secret sentiment, "But actually I'm right, unless you've withheld data." I still see this all the time on this forum, though, where we're supposed to be letting our hair down, metaphorically.

But that's just one man's opinion.

So, my question is... how many people think the way I do about these phrases, and how many people think those of us who do are just arrogant bastards who shouldn't be allowed out in a polite society?

Post your thoughts here!

[Kotetsu]

I usually just tack one onto everything I say to avoid any possible offense (assuming I'm not saying something objective like "You have to square y then multiply it by x to get the answer". It happens so often on other forums (ahem, GameFAQs) that someone will quote a post that is communicating an obviously subjective observation and say "Only in your opinion!" that I just tack a throwaway phrase on.

[Jakalwarrior]

Im to used to people finding something wrong in something I've written and running me over with a bus, backing it over me again, getting out, peeing on me, pouring some gasoline on, and then setting me on fire while rolling me on to an ant hill (repeating thrice if it was about anything to do with political correctness). Adding a little disclaimer makes it so you can call them out on being a sad human being after your mauling.

*note, never happened on this forum

[Orya]

Absolutely agree with the above sentiments.

I don't know if it's me being uncomfortable with my own opinions, or just being afraid of being trampled on, but either way, when I'm participating in a forum where I'm quite new (and even sometimes...) I'd much rather tack that on just so I'll have something to fall back on.

[geonerd]

I agree with your statement, DrEast. And like Kotetsu, I say them to avoid any offense. I like to throw in a little comedy, too, to relieve any tension on both parties.

It's really all a part of being an integral member of society. I don't really like being one, but I *have* to be in order to accomplish what I want. So I play. But in my mind I'm like like, "yeah. Duuumb!"

[Moriarty]

Geonerd says what I think on this issue.

<sigh>

People.

[azelismia]

absolutely right. I was a active member of the Jane Austen mailing list for about 6 years and they taught me some essential disclaimers for not ruffling F feathers. the above mentioned were absolutely some of them. the other thing they really hammered home to me was to always tack on that it was JUST MY OPINION, I do not mean it's a fact that everyone else holds dear.

words don't change reality though ;) that's why I have no problem using them.

[sriv]

I am a skeptic so I always leave a small chance probability of the other side being right. I never think that one answer is the only answer, I may argue like it, but I never think that. Only the fool completely disregards all other possibilities.

This small chance probability of me being wrong may be very very small because I am an INTJ and very self-confident.

[rwyatt365]

The closest I get to that IRL, and on the forum are the phrases;
- "I think..."
- "In my opinion..."
- "As far as I know..."

This removes what follows from the realm of fact, into the realm of my own viewpoint. No one can argue with my viewpoint, other than to state their own.

But yes, when I do state my viewpoint I am absolutely convinced that I am correct and everyone else is mis-informed. :thumbsup:

[azelismia]

I am a skeptic so I always leave a small chance probability of the other side being right. I never think that one answer is the only answer, I may argue like it, but I never think that. Only the fool completely disregards all other possibilities.

This small chance probability of me being wrong may be very very small because I am an INTJ and very self-confident.



knowing you are right doesn't mean you've closed your mind to other data or evidence. did you miss the part where he put in the disclaimer, unless you've held back data from me?

[DrEast]

I am a skeptic so I always leave a small chance probability of the other side being right. I never think that one answer is the only answer, I may argue like it, but I never think that. Only the fool completely disregards all other possibilities.

This small chance probability of me being wrong may be very very small because I am an INTJ and very self-confident.

Well, this usually comes up when people seek my advice (why me?), and then they'll give me only their viewpoint about a situation and ask me to judge the objective reality. Of course I only have what I know of the person and their viewpoint to go off of, so there may well be pertinent information that was just not provided. But beyond THAT...

Edit: Yes, what she said.

[OddFactor]

I find that, although arrogant at all times to some degree, I have better control over it with certain people while just letting it all hang out with others.

[curiousjane]

Ha!

Well, I am used to being torn asunder word by word when I open my mouth to speak or tap my fingers across the keyboard to type. I represent a misunderstood minority of people who are capable of logical thought (despite claims otherwise) yet are at a disadvantage when it comes to expressing that same thought in verbal form.

When in the presence of such authoritative conversationalists such as yourself, I am compelled to disclaim all attempts to converse about topics in which I have not yet formed a conclusive, rock-solid argument or idea.

It is simply a matter of self-preservation. Plus, I hate to be incorrect. It gives me an out, if I need it.

When giving much-needed advice to anyone, I am careful to make sure they understand that my advice may or may not be applicable to their situation.

Otherwise, I have realized the futility and ludicrousness of trying to blanket all assertive statements with qualifiers. It might *sound* nicer, but it tends to dilute the message and make me sound weaker than need be.

[Pinkie]

Im to used to people finding something wrong in something I've written and running me over with a bus, backing it over me again, getting out, peeing on me, pouring some gasoline on, and then setting me on fire while rolling me on to an ant hill (repeating thrice if it was about anything to do with political correctness). Adding a little disclaimer makes it so you can call them out on being a sad human being after your mauling.

*note, never happened on this forum


I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. I... don't have anything to add to that!

[cal]

"Take that with a grain of salt." "I could be wrong, of course." "Now, there could be information that I'm lacking." "This is only how I see it." "But that's just me."

As INTJ's, we know that behind each and every one of these phrases is the secret sentiment, "But actually I'm right, unless you've withheld data." I still see this all the time on this forum, though, where we're supposed to be letting our hair down, metaphorically.

But that's just one man's opinion.

So, my question is... how many people think the way I do about these phrases, and how many people think those of us who do are just arrogant bastards who shouldn't be allowed out in a polite society?

Post your thoughts here!

Saying "behind each and every one of these phrases" seems to be generalizing a little much. I say this because, at least for myself, I stay away from claiming too many things as being absolute truths. Part of my education included viewing most things as being 'proto truths', which in effect to me means "at this time, based on what I now know, I believe 'X' to be true". I believe that what I say is true, based on what I now know/how I'm now perceiving things. But I also believe that I could be wrong, or there could be something more - the rest of the story - based on what I maybe don't know. I don't particularly care to be wrong, or not know the full story about something before I've spoken up, but it seems to be a fact in my life, and I see myself as being a little foolish if I didn't accept it.

A quote: "It should now be clear that there are two systems of truth. Both types of truth are believable and usable. The sole difference is that proto-truths are capable of being changed to better ones whereas absolute truths are not. Absolute truths hold sway in special universes and in circular situations. An absolute truth cannot be changed unless the universe in which it operates is changed. Proto-truths hold sway in 'open' universes."

So many truths/'truths' stay open ended for me. I don't trust that I've come to THE truth in many situations (including the above quote). If you think I'm wrong, or there's something more to it, let me know your thoughts.

[thod]

WTF cal, are you sure you are not an INTP?

[cal]

WTF cal, are you sure you are not an INTP?

First azelismia, and now you. *smiley face goes here* Yep, I am (an INTJ). My J is my strongest, just slightly (1 point) ahead of my N & T. I is firm, too.

What is at work here for me is the description "INTJs apply (often ruthlessly) the criterion 'Does it WORK?' to everything from their own research efforts to the prevailing social norms". The proto-truth approach I learned seems to work better at times, so I adopted it. If something better than that comes along, at least for certain situations, I'll look at adopting it as well.

As I posted on another thread about favourite quotes, one of mine is "One must create their own system, or be enslaved by another's". I won't allow myself to get hung up too much anymore on a system that causes me problems, if there seems to be something better to replace it.

[sriv]

knowing you are right doesn't mean you've closed your mind to other data or evidence. did you miss the part where he put in the disclaimer, unless you've held back data from me?

Apply my general idea to whatever you had a problem with. I cannot know for sure that I am right even if I know all the data, because there is a small probability that I could be wrong. Probably a very very small probability.

Well, this usually comes up when people seek my advice (why me?), and then they'll give me only their viewpoint about a situation and ask me to judge the objective reality. Of course I only have what I know of the person and their viewpoint to go off of, so there may well be pertinent information that was just not provided. But beyond THAT...

Edit: Yes, what she said.

I hate when people go to me for advice. I usually say I dunno just to get them off my back. I only really give advice to people I care about and whose motives I find unsuspicious. Notice I give minimal advice even on the forums. Not because I am a mean guy, but because I can never have all the information thus I will be giving crappy advice. Unless the answer is simple.

[DrEast]

Saying "behind each and every one of these phrases" seems to be generalizing a little much.

Wanted to clear this up: My meaning behind that phrase was that each of the phrases I'd listed, and all others like them, were less than reliably sincere coming from the mouth of an INTJ, not that every time an INTJ used them he was lying.

The "each and every one" was intended of the phrases themselves, not of their specific uses.

[cal]

Wanted to clear this up: My meaning behind that phrase was that each of the phrases I'd listed, and all others like them, were less than reliably sincere coming from the mouth of an INTJ, not that every time an INTJ used them he was lying.

The "each and every one" was intended of the phrases themselves, not of their specific uses.

Thanks for clarifying. I'd have to say that I take such phrases pretty much at face value (unless maybe the person posting them has proven they're always being less than sincere, at least in a particular situation). Maybe I do so mainly because of my upbringing, and/or past lifestyle (eg. my biker days of 'Say what you mean. Mean what you say.')

[schwartzie]

"But that's just me." As INTJ's, we know that behind each and every one of these phrases is the secret sentiment, "But actually I'm right, unless you've withheld data."
But that's just one man's opinion....
Post your thoughts here!

Al Franken quotes, right?

[mkay]

There are a wide range of perspectives in the world. I find it's good to remember that when it comes to voicing opinions. I think conversations are more likely to happen if you allow that you could be wrong or that someone might simply see things differently. I say "conversations," referring to a meaningful exchange of information, rather than two (or more) people just throwing out their opinions and not really hearing each other.

[DrEast]

There are a wide range of perspectives in the world. I find it's good to remember that when it comes to voicing opinions. I think conversations are more likely to happen if you allow that you could be wrong or that someone might simply see things differently. I say "conversations," referring to a meaningful exchange of information, rather than two (or more) people just throwing out their opinions and not really hearing each other.

But of course we hear each other! We need to scan our opponents' arguments for weakness and think of how we're going to prove them wrong next, after all.





DrEast added to this post, 0 minutes and 46 seconds later...

Al Franken quotes, right?

Er... who?

[mkay]

But of course we hear each other! We need to scan our opponents' arguments for weakness and think of how we're going to prove them wrong next, after all.

I find I can easily break down someone's argument but not really absorb the other person's point of view.

[amayamom]

o.k this is my first POST. In fact I just found out about INTJ, took a psych class quiz. Thought wow this is me.
Am I not alone? may I not be the only one who's thinking-
"Wow, you are stupid, these are the facts- but- I don't want you to be hurt or not like me, so I'll be polite and smile, then try to do it my way-anyway"

Am I on the right tract, so now what?

[schwartzie]

Er... who?

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I read his "Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them):..." recently. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
He drips with sarcasm when he uses these phrases.
He might first mercilessly destroy, with facts and more facts, a boorish self-serving politician or dishonest talking head. Then wryly, might say to an audience "but maybe that's just me..." Maybe ...[insert joke at boor's expense]

[pallasathena]

"Take that with a grain of salt." "I could be wrong, of course." "Now, there could be information that I'm lacking." "This is only how I see it." "But that's just me."

As INTJ's, we know that behind each and every one of these phrases is the secret sentiment, "But actually I'm right, unless you've withheld data." I still see this all the time on this forum, though, where we're supposed to be letting our hair down, metaphorically.

But that's just one man's opinion.

So, my question is... how many people think the way I do about these phrases, and how many people think those of us who do are just arrogant bastards who shouldn't be allowed out in a polite society?

Post your thoughts here!


I agree with you, for the most part. I usually preface my sentences with those phrases in my everyday life, but not so much on this forum. I'm pretty honest and sometimes blunt. Everybody doesn't always agree with what I say, but that's the beauty of this forum. It would be a boring world if everyone agreed on everything. As long as we can disagree agreeably, everthing should be copacetic.

[punkyplatypus]

I like to be right and I don't like stating things I feel may be wrong. However I feel my thoughts might help the situation whether right or wrong. Also I like avoiding confrontations, but when they take place I like to be logical in my approach and on the "winning" side. I use those kinds of phrases as back ups to show that what I'm saying is not absolute. This way when someone attacks or questions me I can either stand by my original statement & explain myself or explain why I added that phrase to show I was not 100% sure with what I was saying & maybe change my stance on the situation if they convince me or if I just want to avoid further nonsensical argument.

[DrEast]

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I read his "Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them):..." recently. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
He drips with sarcasm when he uses these phrases.
He might first mercilessly destroy, with facts and more facts, a boorish self-serving politician or dishonest talking head. Then wryly, might say to an audience "but maybe that's just me..." Maybe ...[insert joke at boor's expense]

Ooooh, he's the one Fox tried to sue. Heh. A book I may want to read.

[thaddeus6th]

Sometimes, not always. It depends on how certain I am, whether or not the givern discussion is definitely subjective (musical taste for example) and how aggressive I'm feeling.

"That's just your opinion" is a pathetic, redundant phrase and those who utter it need a lesson in logic and communication.

A while ago a very dreary relative sarcastically remarked "The oracle has spoken" after I made a statement of fact regarding gender differences vis-a-vis weight gain, metabolic rates and muscle/fat ratios. It took quite a lot of effort to restrain myself from pointing out what a cretinous, arrogant creature she must be to dismiss medical fact learnt whilst studying for a degree because it doesn't tally with whatever she heard last week on daytime TV.

I hate ignorant people who pretend or actually think they know things they are completely ignorant of.

[Tuesday]

While I am a mere INFJ, I would agree with you. I can't stand ignorant people mouthing their garbage as fact.

When you question them on their "facts" they don't have anything to back it up and usually turn to personal insults to make themselves feel better. Drives me nuts!

[mkay]

I'm aloof in general when it comes to stupid people.

I look at it this way: They can't help being born stupid; it's not like they chose it. And I see being annoyed with them as a waste of energy. I compare it to teaching special ed kids (no, I don't actually teach) -- I wouldn't show up every day expecting them to perform beyond their natural abilities. And I don't mean that in a superior way; I figure people are who they are. And I figure if people had a choice, most would prefer to be smarter.

[Tuesday]

I wish I could be aloof about it. But they invade my life with their stupidity so I can't help but deal with it, which yes, takes up my energy. My boss is one such ignorant person. I have to deal with his stupidity on a daily basis. Not because I seek out his moronic thoughts but because he hoists them on me. I can't ignore it, although I try.

I also work with and am related to several, shall I call them... lapdogs, who are always in my face with their thoughts on matters they don't understand but think that they do.

If some one who is stupid is some one who doesn't affect me, it is easier to ignore them. I don't care what they really think anyway.

[mkay]

Yeah, I can see how that would unavoidably suck. I spent many years editing for newspapers, and one of the very best things was working among people who were smarter than average. Not that some of them weren't jerks with huge egos, but I'll take a smart jerk over a dumbass any day. I considered being buffered from dumbasses a huge perk of the job.

[malefide]

"Take that with a grain of salt." "I could be wrong, of course." "Now, there could be information that I'm lacking." "This is only how I see it." "But that's just me."

As INTJ's, we know that behind each and every one of these phrases is the secret sentiment, "But actually I'm right, unless you've withheld data." I still see this all the time on this forum, though, where we're supposed to be letting our hair down, metaphorically.

But that's just one man's opinion.

So, my question is... how many people think the way I do about these phrases, and how many people think those of us who do are just arrogant bastards who shouldn't be allowed out in a polite society?

Post your thoughts here!

I may or may not do this, depending on how much hard evidence I have for my statement and how certain I am about it. If it's a statement that generally seems logical and makes sense to me, I won't act like it's an absolute because I haven't necessarily confirmed it to be so. If I'm more than 90% certain that something is so, I will usually feel funny tacking one of the above mentioned phrases onto my statement because I view it is as just a bit insincere.

However--if the situation clearly requires some type of social lubricant, I find phrases like "as far as I can tell" and like to be extremely useful. Also if I sense that I'm coming off as more of a jerk than I mean to be, I'll stick something like that onto a statement so people don't get the wrong idea. And "as far as I can tell" specifically doesn't compromise any truth, actually.

[Nightelf]

I agree with you DrEast and avoid using these prases when possible, among friends and in the family. But people often don't tolerate my thoughts if they are said "just plainly", so it's safer to use these phrases. Still, I secretly despise myself for doing it.

[Phrixos]

People know me to be blunt and to-the-point. I don't need those phrases often. If I give you an answer it's my answer, if I don't know enough about it I'll say so and that will be my answer.

[Hdier]

I have to agree with Sriv (in post 8), however I usually attempt to hide my skepticism.

If I think lowly of the people who are hearing me, I'll specifically act like a know-it-all and act really arrogant, partially because of their reactions but also to keep them at arms length.

If I don't think lowly of the people but am worried about being trampled on for having a factoid wrong (this situation rarely occurs) then I make sure to take on those phrases [though I feel dirty after words :shutter:].

If I'm worried about offending them, then I generally don't think very highly of them.

If I think highly/not lowly of them and I'm not worried about being trampled, I tack them on when my skepticism is high enough to cause me to be not totally certain.

[rvi]

I have used phrases like that to try to keep the conversation diplomatic even if I think I am totally right. I am wrong a lot and usually don't have a problem admitting it, but I have known one too many people who are highly offended by anything and become emotional at the mere hint of me disagreeing with them. I use disclaimers like that in order to try to diffuse a possible bad situation, but I have seen that doesn't work usually.

I try not to use inflammatory language (since that's not very logical) and try to be straight to the point with tact, but I still manage to offend. The only thing I can conclude is that I don't always say what people want to hear, even if I use one of the many disclaimers at the beginning of my conversation.