INTJ in my life now...and I need some help

[xtremegeek]

I have an INTJ in my life. Don't ask me if we are dating or not because I have no idea. He calls me every day, sometimes we talk twice a day on the phone. But here is what I need help understanding:

1. His phobias - he's afraid of anything electrical; he's afraid of heights as if he doesn't trust himself to not jump off; he's very afraid of birds, tells me he has nightmares about birds. Do most INTJs have this many phobias?
2. If he does not want to be in a relationship, why does he call me every day?
3. When I ask him about our relationship, he clams up.
4. He makes comments about things he would like to do with me, (travel, projects, mission trips, painting pictures), but when I try to coordinate one of these, he won't commit. Are all INTJs extremely commitment phobic?
5. When he gets too close to me, he does things which seem to sabatoge it - like picking a fight; not talking to me for days; then acting like nothing happened. Is this a reaction to a sense of emotional vulberability?
6. Is it common for INTJ males to be promiscuous and just use women for sex? Are most INTJ males manipulative when it comes to women?

[ethsar46]

I dont think the phobia's have anything to do with Type. Probly just some traumatic thing we had and cant get over it.

Sounds like he's afraid to get too personal. If he is an INTJ being straight forward will help.

Also i dont think INTJ's are manipulative in the way your talking, since INTJ's hate being manipulated themselves.

[OneHertz]

1) I don't think phobias are type related.
2) He calls you every day because he does want to be in a relationship, but you will never get him to admit it. Don't even bother trying to get him to admit it because he will just run away.
3) ^^^^
4) Normal for me... Try to arrange something a little sudden so he really can't say no. Make SURE that it is something he will enjoy and that he has nothing else to do. Should get more natural the more you do things together, and the relationship will start building. Never call it a relationship though until much later.
5) Yeah... Once I get close to someone the alarms in my head go ding ding ding and I have to screw it up. I regret it later, but I will never admit that to anyone.
6) Not sure about everyone else, but I do at times.

[DrEast]

An SJ! RUN! The bane of every right-thinking NT's existence! Woe betide the NT who falls for an SJ, as yours obviously has, and hard.

To answer your questions in reverse order:

6. This depends highly on the INTJ, but in general we have neither motive nor opportunity for promiscuity. Manipulative? More so, but perhaps not quite how you'd think. An INTJ will point out that all interpersonal action is manipulative to some extent, and INTJs are VERY BAD at openly showing their motives, since motive is tied to feelings and feelings MUST BE PROTECTED AND KEPT SECRET AT ALL COSTS. Rather die than cry, etc.

5. This is actually two separate behaviors you're describing. "Picking a fight" is what INTJs DO, and sometimes it can be misinterpreted as a personal attack. However, there are two ways we can pick a fight... with intent to play (honest debate) or intent to hurt (barbed words). In the former case, you're expected to fight right back, and joyfully, with sound argument and reason, and thus strengthen the bond between you. The latter is usually the result of frustration, such as you are probably experiencing with your wayward little NT. Note that the biggest source of frustration can be misconstruing the first case for the second, which will happen with SJs quite often. Not knowing the specifics I can't tell you how much of each is actually taking place, but I'd suspect most of it starts at the first and quickly is transmuted to the second through the wonderful process of NT-SJ interaction (colloquially known as a "flaming row").

As for not talking to you for days and then acting like nothing happened? Nothing has happened. He maybe got distracted with a project, or lost in thought, probably about, well, you. For, you see, to the NT, thinking about you is almost as rewarding, if not more so, as being with you. Thoughts-about-you are the basis for all romance in the NT's life. It's not really a reaction to emotional vulnerability per se (although it can be, and I've indulged in that before), although he's obviously feeling that too, as I'll show in a later question. If he keeps disappearing after a fight, he may also be simply cursing his social ineptitude.

If he gets too close to you, by the way, of course he's going to pick a fight. That's what we do with people we're close to. It's how we get closer. Sound far-fetched? Observe two NT friends when they have an "argument," or more precisely, a debate. It's like two NF's sharing their feelings, or two SJ's... participating in socially acceptable bond-growing experiences, I guess, I don't know, what the heck do SJ's DO in that situation? Chit-chat? ETo view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

(NTs can't stand chit-chat for several reasons: It tends to the repetitive and predictable, it is no use for improving ourselves or others, and we keep mistaking it for an invitation to debate and getting called jerks when we do so.)

4. A phobia to commitment is classically a more P trait. Here, however, you're starting to run into emotional vulnerability and distancing. Your S is interfering with his N. He'd rather take a trip with you in his head, for example, than actually go through the fuss, bother, expense, and above all RISK of taking one with you in reality. Emotional risk, in this case. That, and INTJs have a habit of not finishing projects, period.

3. This means he likes you. I'm afraid it's as simple as that. Next time he clams up, if you wish to pursue this any further, just tell him that it's okay, you like him too. See if he blushes.

2. Because he likes you. A LOT. He would greatly enjoy being in a relationship with you. It's just that he can't figure out what to do with this gosh-darned love stuff anyway. He has not accounted for it in his long-term planning. As soon as he gets over it (he will, by the way, never get over it unless you help him do so), he'll be able to properly implement a relationship plan to maximize your mutual enjoyment.

1. No, this is just him. I mean, yeah, I'm afraid of heights, but it's not really a crippling phobia.

Anyway, I'll guarantee that every INTJ here is reading your list of questions and thinking, "Man, this poor guy's got it BAD."

[schwartzie]

An SJ! RUN! The bane of every right-thinking NT's existence! Woe betide the NT who falls for an SJ, as yours obviously has, and hard. ... "Man, this poor guy's got it BAD."


I do love your writing! I hope you are planning a book, or at least essays...
~Bows~

[xtremegeek]

Thank you all for your input. I have been treading lightly. Apparently, I need to continue that approach. It's sad and sweet at the same time - sad that he's so afraid of relationships that he would rather live in his head when he could be having some real fun; sweet that I'm living in his head. He knows I'm an ISTJ - that came out in one of our first phone conversations. Thankfully, I had already taken the MBTI test when he asked, so I was able to give him the results. And yes, medical history was the next thing he explored to the Nth degree. It's a good thing I'm very, very patient and not easily offended - I was more curious by his probing than offended.

I may have to periodicaly check in with you NTs for some coaching.

[Kitsune]

There's a point at which a person's fucked-upedness eclipses their type.

The only one of those questions I think MBTI type would allow one to address is 6, but the answer still isn't cut-and-dry:

INTJs like power, but they also like solitude. If the power drive supersedes the need for solitude, they might be the type to "play people", women included. If the opposite is true, you won't have much to worry about.

[schwartzie]

I'm very, very patient and not easily offended - I was more curious by his probing than offended.

Aaahh. Curiousity and patience will serve you very very well.

Some ISTJs who are very S can be a bit too practically-minded to track their INTJ during their thrilling flights into the ether. You may be closer to center if your curiosity keeps you in there, mainlining your INTJ's stream of consciousness. Enjoy!

[DrEast]

Thank you all for your input. I have been treading lightly. Apparently, I need to continue that approach. It's sad and sweet at the same time - sad that he's so afraid of relationships that he would rather live in his head when he could be having some real fun; sweet that I'm living in his head. He knows I'm an ISTJ - that came out in one of our first phone conversations. Thankfully, I had already taken the MBTI test when he asked, so I was able to give him the results. And yes, medical history was the next thing he explored to the Nth degree. It's a good thing I'm very, very patient and not easily offended - I was more curious by his probing than offended.


Sigh. I fear the monster I have let loose.

It's not sad, really. He IS having "real fun," you see. An INTJ has fun in their head. Now, it is sweet, I will admit.

If you wish to pursue this hapless lovestruck fool, I think the best ISTJ role you could provide in the relationship is a mothering one. Not a smothering, feelings-based, change-you-into-something-worthwhile mothering, although that's more likely from an F than a T. More of the make-sure-your-socks-match and make-sure-you've-eaten-today sort of affectionate mothering that INTJs will usually respond well too, albeit while mumbling something about not needing to be mothered, thank you very much. Truth is we just don't bother about that sort of thing, and it can be a relief to not need to. Above all, be straightforward, and it should work out all right.

(You really want to win his heart? Start doing his laundry.)

This is just my intuitive thinking going on here. Anyone else want to take a swing at how this relationship might work out well, have at it.

[cal]

xtreme,

In the situation you've described, I have to agree with DrEast. It's good stuff. Try his #3 answer. If he doesn't blush, he may at least act 'awkward'.

Your INTJ does sound like he has it bad for you. But his phobias would be a bit of a concern to me. I'm wondering if they might get worse with time. I hope you don't get hurt - now, &/or sometime in the future. Btw - my wife's an ISTJ (ISTJ 'lite') as well.

Something further I should add to this: I can't really say whether our relationship worked well enough that we stayed together because of us being INTJ(firm)/ISTJ(lite), or in spite of it. We were good friends for some years before we started dating (she asked me out), and I didn't have the phobias your fellow has.


An SJ! RUN! The bane of every right-thinking NT's existence! Woe betide the NT who falls for an SJ, as yours obviously has, and hard.

To answer your questions in reverse order:

6. This depends highly on the INTJ, but in general we have neither motive nor opportunity for promiscuity. Manipulative? More so, but perhaps not quite how you'd think. An INTJ will point out that all interpersonal action is manipulative to some extent, and INTJs are VERY BAD at openly showing their motives, since motive is tied to feelings and feelings MUST BE PROTECTED AND KEPT SECRET AT ALL COSTS. Rather die than cry, etc.

5. This is actually two separate behaviors you're describing. "Picking a fight" is what INTJs DO, and sometimes it can be misinterpreted as a personal attack. However, there are two ways we can pick a fight... with intent to play (honest debate) or intent to hurt (barbed words). In the former case, you're expected to fight right back, and joyfully, with sound argument and reason, and thus strengthen the bond between you. The latter is usually the result of frustration, such as you are probably experiencing with your wayward little NT. Note that the biggest source of frustration can be misconstruing the first case for the second, which will happen with SJs quite often. Not knowing the specifics I can't tell you how much of each is actually taking place, but I'd suspect most of it starts at the first and quickly is transmuted to the second through the wonderful process of NT-SJ interaction (colloquially known as a "flaming row").

As for not talking to you for days and then acting like nothing happened? Nothing has happened. He maybe got distracted with a project, or lost in thought, probably about, well, you. For, you see, to the NT, thinking about you is almost as rewarding, if not more so, as being with you. Thoughts-about-you are the basis for all romance in the NT's life. It's not really a reaction to emotional vulnerability per se (although it can be, and I've indulged in that before), although he's obviously feeling that too, as I'll show in a later question. If he keeps disappearing after a fight, he may also be simply cursing his social ineptitude.

If he gets too close to you, by the way, of course he's going to pick a fight. That's what we do with people we're close to. It's how we get closer. Sound far-fetched? Observe two NT friends when they have an "argument," or more precisely, a debate. It's like two NF's sharing their feelings, or two SJ's... participating in socially acceptable bond-growing experiences, I guess, I don't know, what the heck do SJ's DO in that situation? Chit-chat? ETo view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

(NTs can't stand chit-chat for several reasons: It tends to the repetitive and predictable, it is no use for improving ourselves or others, and we keep mistaking it for an invitation to debate and getting called jerks when we do so.)

4. A phobia to commitment is classically a more P trait. Here, however, you're starting to run into emotional vulnerability and distancing. Your S is interfering with his N. He'd rather take a trip with you in his head, for example, than actually go through the fuss, bother, expense, and above all RISK of taking one with you in reality. Emotional risk, in this case. That, and INTJs have a habit of not finishing projects, period.

3. This means he likes you. I'm afraid it's as simple as that. Next time he clams up, if you wish to pursue this any further, just tell him that it's okay, you like him too. See if he blushes.

2. Because he likes you. A LOT. He would greatly enjoy to be in a relationship with you. It's just that he can't figure out what to do with this gosh-darned love stuff anyway. He has not accounted for it in his long-term planning. As soon as he gets over it (he will, by the way, never get over it unless you help him do so), he'll be able to properly implement a relationship plan to maximize your mutual enjoyment.

1. No, this is just him. I mean, yeah, I'm afraid of heights, but it's not really a crippling phobia.

Anyway, I'll guarantee that every INTJ here is reading your list of questions and thinking, "Man, this poor guy's got it BAD."

[thecraig]

Most of his phobias have nothing to do with MB type. The most common phobias amongst INTJ's are probably social ones.

His probing is indicative that he likes you. He asked all those questions because he is evaluating you as a potential mate.

[DrEast]

Also, if you want to really screw with his head, ask him straight out: "Are you evaluating me for long-term mating potential?" Make sure you put a hint of "offended" into the question. If he responds with a denial (INTJs lie sometimes, especially if we think the truth will get us into trouble), ask him, in a much more offended tone, "Well why NOT? Do you think I'm not good enough for you?"

Note: Doing this would be an act of cruelty one would not wish on their worst enemy. Just saying.

[Antares]

1. I have no particular phobias.
2. He probably does want to be in a relationship.
3. He's shy :o
4. He's trying to hint at a relationship, but waiting for you to take the initiative.
5. I do that too. Once, I had a semi-romantic encounter with an old crush (that time, it was current) and things seemed promising. For a few days, I fled whenever I saw him and didn't answer him on IM, giving the briefest answer possible to his questions.
6. I'm not a man; I don't know ;)

DrEast: Are you sure that won't scare him off? That would certainly scare me off. The "am I not good enough" thing seems too irrational a response (because it's based on an assumption), and maybe I'm just phobic these responses.

[DrEast]

DrEast: Are you sure that won't scare him off? That would certainly scare me off. The "am I not good enough" thing seems too irrational a response (because it's based on an assumption), and maybe I'm just phobic these responses.

Of COURSE it would scare him off. It would scare ANY INTJ off. We hate getting mindf***ed. But that doesn't make it not funny.

[Jakalwarrior]

1. I have none either, other than slight social phobias I ignore for the most part. Its hard to tell where the phobia begins and the dislike end.
2. I had female friends I didn't want to be in a relationship with but did enjoy the attention from. With those though I was a lot more layed back and avoided anything that resembled a date. I tried to be a good friend to them and didnt flirt or drop hints. I can't say I didnt test the waters a time or two for an ego boost though. Never anything blatant or cruel though. More or less practicing interaction lol. Digging into your medical history and asking other "size up" type questions doesn't match that though. Once youve hit something that says "I could never breed with this person" you stop inquiring any more, a lot of the nervousness drains, and a lot of those wierd reactions would have went away (not as much anxiety about screwing up with somone in the friend zone). Its safe to say he probably wants you.
4. Those are things he would like to do or atleast fantasize about doing (Another sign of being head over heels for you) but seem as though they would be too difficult to keep his composure through. Try making him feel completely at ease around you. Tell him that his shyness etc.. is cute and makes him more attractive. Make him feel as though all of his potential screw ups wouldnt matter and would just be cute. Then take him places that you aren't around people. Go on a quiet walk in the park at an odd time of day when youll be mostly alone, etc... Once he is at ease everything will become a lot more "normal".
5. Can't help with this one. I've never done this one. I would lose my way and not know which direction to go but I've never sabotaged. Unless you mean physical closeness. I always had a habit of going wide eyed and freezing or acting very awkward when a female got cuddly or touched me much etc...
6. Cant help you on this one either. I always said I would never sleep with a person I didn't want to marry. I actually turned it down a few times or played dumb. I wouldn't say it would have been impossible for me to act like that, but it would have been out of character for me.

Read this forum much though and you will see there is actually a LOT of variation between INTJs. Thats why I said "me" so much throughout that. Easier to just explain what I would do as an INTJ than try to fit responses to the stereotype. So you can get an idea of the variance as everyone else answers too ;)

Of COURSE it would scare him off. It would scare ANY INTJ off. We hate getting mindf***ed. But that doesn't make it not funny.

Also, if you want to really screw with his head, ask him straight out: "Are you evaluating me for long-term mating potential?" Make sure you put a hint of "offended" into the question. If he responds with a denial (INTJs lie sometimes, especially if we think the truth will get us into trouble), ask him, in a much more offended tone, "Well why NOT? Do you think I'm not good enough for you?"

Note: Doing this would be an act of cruelty one would not wish on their worst enemy. Just saying.

That would just make me smile, maybe blush a little ;) Then again, im abnormal for an INTJ. Psych degree and trained to not be offended and just push on etc..

[DrEast]

I do love your writing! I hope you are planning a book, or at least essays...
~Bows~

Of course I'm planning a book. I'm always planning a book. I've planned SO MANY books. I'll plot them all out in my head... theme, plot, characterization, sudden dramatic finale, love interest, time travel tricks, philosophy, world, systems of magic or science, tragic flaws, heroic endeavors, villains both fair and foul, surprise endings, even the cover art.

I've just never written a book. Someday, if I can get around to it, I will. I just have so many books I have to plan, I never have the time.

[ElstonGunn]

I have an INTJ in my life. Don't ask me if we are dating or not because I have no idea.

I don't have ask. You're not dating him, because INTJs don't date. We evaluate people (which isn't as scary as it sounds, by the way).


Do most INTJs have this many phobias?

No. He doesn't have any, either. He doesn't like heights? It's a rational fear of plummeting to his death. He's terrified of birds? It's a healthy fear of our natural predators. Phobias are irrational. An INTJ is patently incapable of being irrational. Therefore, INTJS don't have phobias.


If he does not want to be in a relationship, why does he call me every day?

Where did you get this idea that he doesn't want to be in a relationship? Did he tell you? Were his exact words, "I don't want to be in a relationship with you?" If not, then don't try to understand his motives. They're weird and complicated, and we don't always understand them ourselves (especially social motives, and really, really especially romantic-social motives).


When I ask him about our relationship, he clams up.

And what do you do when he asks you about quantum physics, advanced literary analysis, experimental psychology, or whatever subject area it is that you know next to nothing about and are very uncomfortable with, but for whatever reason, he still expects you to have good answers for?


He makes comments about things he would like to do with me, (travel, projects, mission trips, painting pictures), but when I try to coordinate one of these, he won't commit. Are all INTJs extremely commitment phobic?

This was mentioned before, but I'll just re-state the point that ideas are fun. Kind of like if you're having a bad day and then you think about blowing the world up or something. You wouldn't really want to blow the world up, would you? It's just a fun/stress-relieving idea to think about.


When he gets too close to me, he does things which seem to sabatoge it - like picking a fight; not talking to me for days; then acting like nothing happened. Is this a reaction to a sense of emotional vulberability?

Anybody can enjoy the sunshine and rainbows and happy unicorns that go along with the good parts of a relationship. If you two can get into a big fight and not hate or resent each other for a long time, isn't that a good sign? And if you can't do that, wouldn't it be better to become aware of that before you go too far?


Is it common for INTJ males to be promiscuous and just use women for sex? Are most INTJ males manipulative when it comes to women?

No. We're hermits, remember? So that means that we're either asexual prudes or compulsive masturbators. Either way, it doesn't involve anyone else. :rolleyes:

[cal]

And yes, medical history was the next thing he explored to the Nth degree. It's a good thing I'm very, very patient and not easily offended - I was more curious by his probing than offended.

I'm not sure where this thing about medical history was brought up by someone here, if at all, but a couple of thoughts: I'm wondering if he might be looking to find out how 'independent' of making demands on him you might be able to remain. If he's having a bit of a time holding himself together, having someone sick to take care of at some point could be a load he doesn't think he could deal with. &/or maybe he's looking to see if you might be able to help take care of him as well as yourself, if he goes down.

[Learning]

Thank you all for your input. I have been treading lightly. Apparently, I need to continue that approach. It's sad and sweet at the same time - sad that he's so afraid of relationships that he would rather live in his head when he could be having some real fun; sweet that I'm living in his head. He knows I'm an ISTJ - that came out in one of our first phone conversations. Thankfully, I had already taken the MBTI test when he asked, so I was able to give him the results. And yes, medical history was the next thing he explored to the Nth degree. It's a good thing I'm very, very patient and not easily offended - I was more curious by his probing than offended.

I may have to periodicaly check in with you NTs for some coaching.

Best of luck to you. Hopefully you can continue to be patient. People who are afraid of commitment at first are likely to take it pretty seriously... a good thing in the long run. If you hang in there for the trust & vulnerability to grow the outcome could be awesome. (I also agree that the phobia is a seperate issue from personality). Hope it's a win/win for you.

[Jakalwarrior]

Is he "There" though? from your perspective? Is he on your intellectual plane? I don't mean just with knowledge I mean with understanding and perspective? You can never be happy with somone you don't feel is on the same level as you. Reading back over what you said about him you make it seem as though he is a child or oddity you cant quite understand. When I get to people like that, ones that I can look at as a part of nature, a piece of art, or a child, they can be cute and all but its not somone I would want to date. Its much more fun to be with a person on the same level. A person you can readily share the world with.

[xtremegeek]

Of COURSE it would scare him off. It would scare ANY INTJ off. We hate getting mindf***ed. But that doesn't make it not funny.

LOL...funny and ornery, but I don't want to torture the guy.





xtremegeek added to this post, 11 minutes and 8 seconds later...

ElstonGunn:
I asked him, "Are you calling me on the phone this much because we are dating?" painfully long pause... I finally break the silence by saying, "OK. I understand - we're just friends." He breaks his silence by asking, "What does it mean to 'just be friends?'"
Intellectually, have advanced degrees and have exchanged some good books. We have similar religious beliefs; our politics are similar, though he is a bit more liberal than me.

[DrEast]

LOL...funny and ornery, but I don't want to torture the guy.





xtremegeek added to this post, 11 minutes and 8 seconds later...

ElstonGunn:
I asked him, "Are you calling me on the phone this much because we are dating?" painfully long pause... I finally break the silence by saying, "OK. I understand - we're just friends." He breaks his silence by asking, "What does it mean to 'just be friends?'"
Intellectually, have advanced degrees and have exchanged some good books. We have similar religious beliefs; our politics are similar, though he is a bit more liberal than me.

You drew the wrong conclusion from that pause, I hope you realize now.

Anyway, something I have to ask you is this: Do you want to be dating him? Do you want a romantic relationship with this individual? If so, it's absolutely, utterly yours for the taking, but you can't wait for him. You have to make it so.

Every INTJ male's dream is that the woman he's desperate for will decide to take romantic matters into her own hands and make the romance what he knows, intellectually, it should be but which he just can't seem to make come about.

You have to court him, not the other way around. And while you're at it, make sure you let him know that you two are dating (and schedule the actual dates well in advance) so he can make plans around it.

(If you feel twinges at being this "forward," remember that INTJ's don't really care for societal norms... at all. However, don't resist if when you do do this he turns around and starts taking control of it. Once the plan is underway, leadership devolves to the INTJ.)

[Jakalwarrior]

Every INTJ male's dream is that the woman he's desperate for will decide to take romantic matters into her own hands and make the romance what he knows, intellectually, it should be but which he just can't seem to make come about.


Worked for my wife ;)

[xtremegeek]

DrEast:
Yes, I do want to date him. Now I need a strategy that I'm comfortable with - not to manipulate him, but to avoid scaring him off, since he seems to be fragile in the interpersonal relationship business.
Thanks for the input.

[azelismia]

Tell him flat out you want to date him. QED.

I'm interested. Are you?

That's all it takes, but in email form. give him time to recover and it might take a week. don't panic





azelismia added to this post, 1 minutes and 19 seconds later...

*snort* but I should add.. my dating history hasn't been exactly stellar, it's really pretty funny if you take my advice.

[DrEast]

DrEast:
Yes, I do want to date him. Now I need a strategy that I'm comfortable with - not to manipulate him, but to avoid scaring him off, since he seems to be fragile in the interpersonal relationship business.
Thanks for the input.

Well, as I and others have said, straightforward is the way to do it. Don't let any feelings get in the way of good old fashioned love. Sure, you'll need his cooperation, but that really won't be hard to get. Above all, never rely on his own interpretation of his feelings. He'll be scared, wrong, and attempting to depart from the object of his study instead of approach it like he would anything else in the world you asked him about.

I wish you the best of luck, although he'll think he's the lucky one if you pull it off right.

[ElstonGunn]

Anyway, something I have to ask you is this: Do you want to be dating him? Do you want a romantic relationship with this individual? If so, it's absolutely, utterly yours for the taking, but you can't wait for him. You have to make it so.

Absolutely. Write this on your hand if you have to. Or get it tattooed backwards on your forehead so you'll get a reminder every morning when you look in the mirror. This can't point cannot be stressed enough.

Out of 100 (male) INTJs who have a romantic interest in someone, 50 of them will never do anything that could, even under loosest and most generous standards, be considered a decent display of interest.

Another 40 of them will do something that they themselves consider a pretty decent hint, but would go un-noticed by any neutral observer. They'll consider the lack of reaction to be tacit rejection and give up. The next five of them will try once or twice more with what they consider to be pretty obvious indications of their interest, in spite of the fact that you'd need a a cryptoanalyst to decipher their message.

Four of the remaining five would, eventually, make a normal move. Eventually. As in, "if they still remember you despite the Alzheimer's."

One out of 100 INTJs will do what it the social norm and flirt/ask you out.


It's a lot easier if you can combine a lack of pushiness with a "I'm going to date this guy whether he likes it or not, dammit" kind of attitude.

[cal]

Every INTJ male's dream is that the woman he's desperate for will decide to take romantic matters into her own hands and make the romance what he knows, intellectually, it should be but which he just can't seem to make come about.

"Every"? You're killing me, Doc. If I wasn't so INTJ wired, I'd question what I was.

Something for you, xtreme: My wife asked me out as an escort to her prom. We were friends, and she said she needed a date on short notice. So I did it, because she gave me a 'higher reason' for doing it, other than just going out. Otherwise, I wouldn't have gone out. Maybe giving him a 'higher reason' - like needing a prom date, an escort to an office outing, going to a movie so you wouldn't have to go alone - could help with not scaring him, and give you a legitimate reason for asking. I brought up the idea of a 2nd date with my wife after we were done the 1st one, because I could tell she wanted me to. I figured, "Sure. Why not. She's my friend." Little did I know. I think you might have to chase the 2nd date yourself, though.

[DrEast]

"Every"? You're killing me, Doc. If I wasn't so INTJ wired, I'd question what I was.

Something for you, xtreme: My wife asked me out as an escort to her prom. We were friends, and she said she needed a date on short notice. So I did it, because she gave me a 'higher reason' for doing it, other than just going out. Otherwise, I wouldn't have gone out. Maybe giving him a 'higher reason' - like needing a prom date, an escort to an office outing, going to a movie so you wouldn't have to go alone - could help with not scaring him, and give you a legitimate reason for asking. I brought up the idea of a 2nd date with my wife after we were done the 1st one, because I could tell she wanted me to. I figured, "Sure. Why not. She's my friend." Little did I know. I think you might have to chase the 2nd date yourself, though.

Fair enough. I never needed a larger reason than interest in my own glorious personage, but I could see where lesser mortals might need such a reassurance.

...

Okay, I was nervous as sh** each and every time I ever went out with anyone, but darnit, I was going to go through with it come what may.

Edit: And the only time I ever asked anyone out I had to race to get it out at the same time as her, because she'd been dropping hints with the same subtlety as a kick to the groin, repeatedly, every few hours, for months, and I think she was sick and tired of waiting. I still didn't actually beat her. Simultaneous date asking. Ah, the memories.

[cal]

Fair enough. I never needed a larger reason than interest in my own glorious personage, but I could see where lesser mortals might need such a reassurance.

...

Okay, I was nervous as sh** each and every time I ever went out with anyone, but darnit, I was going to go through with it come what may.

Edit: And the only time I ever asked anyone out I had to race to get it out at the same time as her, because she'd been dropping hints with the same subtlety as a kick to the groin, repeatedly, every few hours, for months, and I think she was sick and tired of waiting. I still didn't actually beat her. Simultaneous date asking. Ah, the memories.

Physician, heal thyself. :)

But you went through with it. Good for you.

[DrEast]

I'm actually hoping for an update on this one to see if the poor fellow's going to get his secret heart's desire, or if the nerd is gonna blow it again.

[azelismia]

I'm actually hoping for an update on this one to see if the poor fellow's going to get his secret heart's desire, or if the nerd is gonna blow it again.

It might take a couple weeks. depends on how bad the hangups are you know. time to sink in
time to ponder implications
Time to address how to address subject
a little more time to sink in
a little more time to ponder implications
decision on if they really can address the subject w/out wimpering
addressing subject.

time slots for each of those steps vary between individuals

[DrEast]

It might take a couple weeks. depends on how bad the hangups are you know. time to sink in
time to ponder implications
Time to address how to address subject
a little more time to sink in
a little more time to ponder implications
decision on if they really can address the subject w/out wimpering
addressing subject.

time slots for each of those steps vary between individuals

Bah. Curse you, reality! You're ruining the instant verification of all my social hypotheses!

[xtremegeek]

All of you are really making me laugh now. I will keep you posted.

[Ice Wolf]

Anything new? My popcorn is getting cold :)

Maybe just a peace of advice.

Don't do anything over the phone. It is the most evil form of communication.
Do not, I repeat DO NOT try to solve anything "weird" in public.

Only response you will get is defensive posture.

Did that once. After all we INTJ's have to take care for our "non-warm&fuzzy" reputation.

[DrEast]

Anything new? My popcorn is getting cold :)

Maybe just a peace of advice.

Don't do anything over the phone. It is the most evil form of communication.
Do not, I repeat DO NOT try to solve anything "weird" in public.

Only response you will get is defensive posture.

Did that once. After all we INTJ's have to take care for our "non-warm&fuzzy" reputation.

While I too despise the evil that is the phone, I'm not aware of this being a universal INTJ trait. After all, this poor fellow is calling her up once or twice a day... he may have picked up (or had drilled into him) that phone-familiarity which needs to be second nature to be comfortable with the fiendish device.

[xtremegeek]

Anything new? My popcorn is getting cold :)

Maybe just a peace of advice.

Don't do anything over the phone. It is the most evil form of communication.
Do not, I repeat DO NOT try to solve anything "weird" in public.

Only response you will get is defensive posture.

Did that once. After all we INTJ's have to take care for our "non-warm&fuzzy" reputation.

Nothing new to report. He continues to call me. I e-mail him during the day, but he never responds to e-mail. That's a bummer for me because I prefer e-mail instead of the phone. I have suggested (both in e-mail and on the phone) that we do something Memorial Day weekend, thinking I was giving him plenty of time to 'plan.' But he has not responded.





xtremegeek added to this post, 6 minutes and 11 seconds later...

While I too despise the evil that is the phone, I'm not aware of this being a universal INTJ trait. After all, this poor fellow is calling her up once or twice a day... he may have picked up (or had drilled into him) that phone-familiarity which needs to be second nature to be comfortable with the fiendish device.

The first few times he called me on the phone, it was painful. He stuttered so much. It took about 1 month of phone calls before he started to sound relaxed while talking to me. After that first phone call I thought for sure I would never hear from this guy again, but 4 months later, he continues to call. I just don't know what to do with him, other than take his calls and pick interesting, but 'safe' topics for him...then I just let him chat. He's a skiddish one.

[schwartzie]

Nothing new to report. He continues to call me. I e-mail him during the day, but he never responds to e-mail. That's a bummer for me because I prefer e-mail instead of the phone.

I love e-mail. In writing, I can be smooth, pretty much always. Not so w verbal conversations. If that's true of your INTJ, he's taking quite a risk w you, and is being spontaneous. Or maybe he just has a daytime job where non-work related e-mail is monitored and verboten. I like (telephony) text messaging and (IP) messenger apps even more because they can be done simultaneous w other things at both ends of the conversation: Life as mash-up.

[DrEast]

The first few times he called me on the phone, it was painful. He stuttered so much. It took about 1 month of phone calls before he started to sound relaxed while talking to me. After that first phone call I thought for sure I would never hear from this guy again, but 4 months later, he continues to call. I just don't know what to do with him, other than take his calls and pick interesting, but 'safe' topics for him...then I just let him chat. He's a skiddish one.

You're lucky! He wants you so badly he was willing to venture into a completely unknown area, phone conversations, in order to get closer to you. That's not at all common... it was a massive act of courage on his part.

Well, like to like. My advice is to go sit on him and tell him that you two are dating now, so he may as well get used to it. No matter how else you try to approach the problem, that's going to have to happen (at least metaphorically) before you two can get to the next step anyway.

[xtremegeek]

I agree that I will have to tell him that we are dating. It's out of my ISTJ female nature to play the 'caveman' role and drag him away, but I guess that's what I will have to do. I'm not into dominating someone (makes me feel like a bully) so I'll have to find my own subtle way of taking charge of the situation to move it forward. Wish me luck!

[DrEast]

I agree that I will have to tell him that we are dating. It's out of my ISTJ female nature to play the 'caveman' role and drag him away, but I guess that's what I will have to do. I'm not into dominating someone (makes me feel like a bully) so I'll have to find my own subtle way of taking charge of the situation to move it forward. Wish me luck!

Good luck! His love of his autonomy may make him squirm over this, but he'll come around to your point of view eventually. After all, this has been his Plan from the beginning, so why shouldn't it work?

Just remember not to take his squirming and lack of self-confidence as a lack of desire. Quite the opposite, really.

Edit: And, yes, despite what I've said here, do try to avoid being TOO "pushy." Just calmly let him know that the facts is what the facts is. It's something SJ's are good at and it's the skill needed for this situation.

[xtremegeek]

Well, he let me know that he did not want to do anything over Memorial Day weekend. And he has not called since Saturday, so I guess he's done with me.

It was weird. He called me Saturday...we chatted briefly about movies and baseball. He ended the call (as usual.) He didn't call yesterday, then today I get a very short e-mail stating that he could not do anything Memorial Day weekend. And he did not call today...

[azelismia]

Well, he let me know that he did not want to do anything over Memorial Day weekend. And he has not called since Saturday, so I guess he's done with me.


well, on one hand I don't want to encourage you to sit by the phone, but on the other.. don't give up just yet. saturday to monday is NOT a huge stretch of time even if it feels like it is, you just want and answer and you want it now.. it doesn't always work that way.

[DrEast]

Well, he let me know that he did not want to do anything over Memorial Day weekend. And he has not called since Saturday, so I guess he's done with me.

Sigh. The nerd blew it again.

Well, it's not like I haven't been frightened off by success a few times myself.

Let this be a lesson to all assembled INTJs: You may THINK you want her to fall into your lap, but when that does happen, you'll just panic and push her away.

Given the data you've given us, xtremegeek, I'd still say he isn't done with you completely yet, but sometimes a nerd is a nerd. He's scared. He'll calm down eventually. Still, it's deuced hard to get an INTJ over that first hurdle.

Also, yes, patience seems to be absolutely key when dealing with INTJ's romantically.

[xtremegeek]

Sigh. The nerd blew it again.

Well, it's not like I haven't been frightened off by success a few times myself.

Let this be a lesson to all assembled INTJs: You may THINK you want her to fall into your lap, but when that does happen, you'll just panic and push her away.

Given the data you've given us, xtremegeek, I'd still say he isn't done with you completely yet, but sometimes a nerd is a nerd. He's scared. He'll calm down eventually. Still, it's deuced hard to get an INTJ over that first hurdle.

Also, yes, patience seems to be absolutely key when dealing with INTJ's romantically.


This is a question only an INTJ could answer: How could the pain of possibly breaking up with someone be worse than the pain of letting someone get away?

[DrEast]

This is a question only an INTJ could answer: How could the pain of possibly breaking up with someone be worse than the pain of letting someone get away?

Are you kidding? We've been dealing with the pain of letting someone get away all our lives, because we've never had a romantic relationship! Better that than the completely unknown pain of breaking up with someone.

Actually, it doesn't work like that. "Pain" doesn't come into it at all, just paralysis. INTJ's suck at what they don't know, and romance is a huge unknown generally.

It's like public speaking, really, if that's a fear you can relate to. That same feeling of paralysis.

Plus, your INTJ has some additional problems to worry about (his many and varied phobias), which may well be indicative of a larger problem. At a guess he's much more skittish than even your standard INTJ.

[azelismia]

This is a question only an INTJ could answer: How could the pain of possibly breaking up with someone be worse than the pain of letting someone get away?

I can't answer that xtreme, I've not been in the habit of letting them get away if I want them. at least not if its in my hands. Of course, I can't keep someone that doesnt' want to be with me. that would be a waste of time. I've got an aunt who borders between INTJ and INFJ on the tests who is a virgin at age 55 and lives with my grandmother still. she's been so afraid of men her whole life she never let one in. I don't get it. She was quite pretty too. Some men are that way too. you just never know what else is going on with someone. maybe they're secretly in love with someone else, maybe they aren't that in to you really on any kind of sexual level or maybe they are just terrified of giving up part of their life to someone else. if it's any of these things, there is just nothing you can do about it but move on until you find someone who is at the same stage in life as you. it sucks but that's the way it is.

with that in mind, don't give up just yet. just because he can't do something with you a month away and hasn't called for 3 days doesn't mean he's done with you.





azelismia added to this post, 1 minutes and 4 seconds later...

Are you kidding? We've been dealing with the pain of letting someone get away all our lives, because we've never had a romantic relationship! Better that than the completely unknown pain of breaking up with someone.

Actually, it doesn't work like that. "Pain" doesn't come into it at all, just paralysis. INTJ's suck at what they don't know, and romance is a huge unknown generally.

It's like public speaking, really, if that's a fear you can relate to. That same feeling of paralysis.

Plus, your INTJ has some additional problems to worry about (his many and varied phobias), which may well be indicative of a larger problem. At a guess he's much more skittish than even your standard INTJ.

you've never had a romantic relationship?

[DrEast]

you've never had a romantic relationship?

Not when I'd first got to college I hadn't. I had to let three or four get away before it got drilled into me that I actually had to respond if I was going to do any dating.





DrEast added to this post, 1 minutes and 9 seconds later...


with that in mind, don't give up just yet. just because he can't do something with you a month away and hasn't called for 3 days doesn't mean he's done with you.


I would like to emphasize this point, too. INTJ's move slowly in their romances as a general rule, even when we're fully cooperative.

I'll tell a quick story from my college days. There was a gorgeous girl in my class who really wasn't interested in any of the guys around... until her sophomore year, when a new freshman caught her eye. She pretty much told my roommate, "He's the one. Mine!"

She was some sort of S, I'm guessing an ISTJ or an ISFJ, and the new freshman, who lived on my floor and who became a pretty good friend, was a classic INTJ. It took her MONTHS to wear him down, and he could pass himself off as a normal human being. They're happily married now, but if it weren't for her simple persistence that he was hers despite anything he would do about it, she'd never have gotten past that first defensive layer.

Now, I can pretty much guarantee you that your INTJ is interested in you, xtremegeek, as he's following a classic model. However... interest, in an INTJ, can scare us into avoiding the object of interest more than we would someone we're NOT interested in. Attraction as a repellent.

[azelismia]

Not when I'd first got to college I hadn't. I had to let three or four get away before it got drilled into me that I actually had to respond if I was going to do any dating.





DrEast added to this post, 1 minutes and 9 seconds later...



I would like to emphasize this point, too. INTJ's move slowly in their romances as a general rule, even when we're fully cooperative.

Hmm, there is probably a big difference between being a teenage girl and a teenage boy when it comes to dating.

[xtremegeek]

Not when I'd first got to college I hadn't. I had to let three or four get away before it got drilled into me that I actually had to respond if I was going to do any dating.





DrEast added to this post, 1 minutes and 9 seconds later...



I would like to emphasize this point, too. INTJ's move slowly in their romances as a general rule, even when we're fully cooperative.


Ugh! Extra sensative in the realm of interpersonal relationships; extra quiet; extra high standards; extra slow at moving a relationship forward...where does one go armed with that knowledge?!





xtremegeek added to this post, 1 minutes and 55 seconds later...

well, on one hand I don't want to encourage you to sit by the phone, but on the other.. don't give up just yet. saturday to monday is NOT a huge stretch of time even if it feels like it is, you just want and answer and you want it now.. it doesn't always work that way.

Yes, I guess I am running out of patience. Thanks for reminding me.

[DrEast]

Ugh! Extra sensative in the realm of interpersonal relationships; extra quiet; extra high standards; extra slow at moving a relationship forward...where does one go armed with that knowledge?!

You see how "Romance is usually the achilles heel of the INTJ." It's like we're under siege from ourselves. If you think it's bad from that end, try being one of us!

[azelismia]

Ugh! Extra sensative in the realm of interpersonal relationships; extra quiet; extra high standards; extra slow at moving a relationship forward...where does one go armed with that knowledge?!





xtremegeek added to this post, 1 minutes and 55 seconds later...



Yes, I guess I am running out of patience. Thanks for reminding me.

Y/W but on the other hand, reading thru the list of phobia's and fears.. you really might be wasting your time with him. I don't know what your intentions are for a relationship, if you are thinking of temporary or marriage, but could you happily live with that kind of baggage? it's got to be emotionally draining.

[DrEast]

Y/W but on the other hand, reading thru the list of phobia's and fears.. you really might be wasting your time with him. I don't know what your intentions are for a relationship, if you are thinking of temporary or marriage, but could you happily live with that kind of baggage? it's got to be emotionally draining.

Much as I want to cheer for a fellow INTJ... there is also this. There's always a lot of work to be done on S/N relationships anyway, and you have to consider whether or not he's worth it. It's entirely possible even if he is crushing on you (he is) that you may just have to settle for friendship.

[xtremegeek]

You see how "Romance is usually the achilles heel of the INTJ." It's like we're under siege from ourselves. If you think it's bad from that end, try being one of us!

No thanks! I would rather admire and support the INTJ clan, without having to become one of them. We can't all be INTJ's, and from the looks of this, someone needs to look out for the well-being of the INTJ's. Granted, being an ISTJ is no picnic, but I've learned to roll with it.

[azelismia]

No thanks! I would rather admire and support the INTJ clan, without having to become one of them. We can't all be INTJ's, and from the looks of this, someone needs to look out for the well-being of the INTJ's. Granted, being an ISTJ is no picnic, but I've learned to roll with it.


Eh, I don't think MOST intj's have this kind of trouble with it. this doesn't sound like a type problem to me, this sounds like a mental stability issue. I think at first we tend to fear getting our toes wet but most will eventually get over it and get their toes wet.. some have other issues going on that never allow them to do this. I have a pet theory which may or may not be true that some people who are autistic are not actually INTJ but test that way and there are some "normal" intj's who are not autistic. that's not to say that there's anything wrong with being a high functioning autistic b/c there are some very brilliant people with that diagnosis but I do think it's a different (although similar) set of personality traits. I think your fellow might have a few of the high functioning autistic problems.

[xtremegeek]

Y/W but on the other hand, reading thru the list of phobia's and fears.. you really might be wasting your time with him. I don't know what your intentions are for a relationship, if you are thinking of temporary or marriage, but could you happily live with that kind of baggage? it's got to be emotionally draining.

Draining - at times. I guess, true to my ISTJ nature, I see the good in him and remain loyal and focused on that. Not that I believe I can change him, rather I believe in my ability to focus on the bright spots and remain loyal. This can be a curse for an ISTJ...loyalty to a fault. But even I have my limits.

As for my intentions, yes I would like to get married. I do not date just for the sake of dating...that annoys my I.

[curiousjane]

I do not date just for the sake of dating...that annoys my I.

Hear, hear! :thumbsup:

(xtremegeek, I'm rooting for your happiness.)

[DrEast]

Again, I'll pitch my voice in support of azelismia... I was actually thinking of light autism when I mentioned wider problems earlier. I have a friend who myself and other friends think is mildly autistic. He's a fantastic guy but he has... problems.

[xtremegeek]

Hear, hear! :thumbsup:

(xtremegeek, I'm rooting for your happiness.)

Thank you. It's always nice to have a cheering section.

[DrEast]

Thank you. It's always nice to have a cheering section.

If it's any encouragement, from what I know of the type (being one), this poor fellow probably needs you a lot more than you need him, even if he's completely inept at it.

[xtremegeek]

Again, I'll pitch my voice in support of azelismia... I was actually thinking of light autism when I mentioned wider problems earlier. I have a friend who myself and other friends think is mildly autistic. He's a fantastic guy but he has... problems.

It's very possible he has some mild autism. Wouldn't surprise me if he did. Can I handle that? Not sure. I know what I can't handle - E's. So if this guy is mildly autistic, he's still more enjoyable to talk to than an E. But you are right, I may have to just accept that we will only be friends and this may be for the best.

I should clarify - there are some E's I enjoy talking to and am entertained by their constant 'thinking out loud'. But when it comes to a personal relationship...E's are out. I am much more comfortable with I's.

[schwartzie]

It took her MONTHS to wear him down, and he could pass himself off as a normal human being.

It was probably the special rubbery mask....

Now, I can pretty much guarantee you that your INTJ is interested in you, xtremegeek, as he's following a classic model. However... interest, in an INTJ, can scare us into avoiding the object of interest more than we would someone we're NOT interested in. Attraction as a repellent.

Oye! very true. It's not a pretty sight from the inside... entire battallions of conflicting intentions... mowed down.... I'm actually very pleased and surprised that the latest object of my affections had the wherewithal to let me do my vacillation thing for...oh...several months, before I finally got it together to do some purposeful pursuit... But then, I'm pretty sure he's an intj, too, so, probably only very recently was his own hook set.

I'd also vote for not inferring from the couple days of not calling, that he's distancing himself. More likely, he's processing the apparent deepening of your relationship, and your wonderful growing (thanks, coach!) confidence.

Do you know anyone with mild autism? They can be amazing and insightful, warm and funny. But not such good communicators, necessarily, when they are focused elsewhere. You would probably take on a larger share of initiating clear communication, than you might otherwise. And have to live with slightly more risk-taking than otherwise. But, there are lots of resources to check out autism, and see if it seems consistent w your INTJ.

[xtremegeek]

So my INTJ person called this AM. He seemed rather chipper, like life was normal. After saying good morning, he asked, "So what do you know?" I sooo wanted to make a smart ass reply, but I didn't. I updated him on how my week at work was going and what I would be doing this weekend. Folks, I mean to tell ya...I got nothin'. He listened to my update; told me what he would be doing this weekend; asked me if I had read a particular article in the NY Times; then ended the call. I guess I'm just his muse.

[BlackHawk]

I guess I'm just his muse.

Hey, now. Don't submit to resignation. Make sure you know what you're doing, what you want, and how you think you can make everything work out!

We're backing you! :thumbsup:

[changos]

There are two kinds of INTJS, the healthy and the sick one (and evil one)...

1. His phobias - he's afraid of anything electrical; he's afraid of heights as if he doesn't trust himself to not jump off; he's very afraid of birds, tells me he has nightmares about birds. Do most INTJs have this many phobias?

As for me and other few intjs I had the pleasure to know... we don't have phobias for a long time... We try to better ourselves and quite often a phobia is something we see as a project to "overcome". His spiral of thinking could lead him while in total solitude (more than enough) to dark ideas... paranoia.

2. If he does not want to be in a relationship, why does he call me every day?
If he is a evil intj he will use the knowledge to manipulate and play... but usually INTJS rather be alone than in a relationship we don't want. We just don't care - have the time... energy. Also we are very straight... if we want something you will now very quickly.

3. When I ask him about our relationship, he clams up.
We love people being straight and direct... What you say doesn't smell good. We talk about it except if he doesn't really want nothing or if he had a very bad experience.... (people usually don't understand-give us space).

4. He makes comments about things he would like to do with me, (travel, projects, mission trips, painting pictures), but when I try to coordinate one of these, he won't commit. Are all INTJs extremely commitment phobic?
No. If we want something (really) we go for it. In such situation we see somebody collaborating... thats great.

5. When he gets too close to me, he does things which seem to sabatoge it - like picking a fight; not talking to me for days; then acting like nothing happened. Is this a reaction to a sense of emotional vulberability?

Sabotage? perhaps measuring the limits? knowing you? some people think about this this way while we are just having fun. Mental debate is like candy for us. Not talking? we need space... the world for us is big... filled with ideas... not with only one person. BUT, acting like nothing happened? we discuss things...

6. Is it common for INTJ males to be promiscuous and just use women for sex? Are most INTJ males manipulative when it comes to women?
Good one. When on a relationship... we care, we study our girl becoming experts... this leads to a wide variety of pleasure we can give her. Also, there is a point where the girl realizes the kind of knowledge and "power" we have on her emotions being able to predict and create situations... But manipulative "per se" we are not... we don't like artificial things.

Promiscuous? that is not type related. IMHO many people have said to me and other INTJS they would love to develop the kind of attitude we have in relationships so they could manipulate and get all the sex they want to.

Very often "E's" are better on this... We as INTJS just BOND to one person and that's it. We don't have enough "care" or energy to deeply bond with more than one person... usually


more...

We are not so often easy to go to bed with... intimacy is not something easy or fast to reach with many people. We could have more fun thinking also... PERHAPS an intj willk know what he knows and just as other areas will try to explore the area (seduction)... As an INTJ and other have said to me... it sounds amazing to explorer the self knowledge of seduction just as that, something to explore and perfection... but it is quite expensive on the emotional and moral side... too much energy.

[xtremegeek]

I asked him again tonight whether or not he thinks we are in a relationship. He said he didn't know and hadn't thought about it. Since when does an INTJ not think about something. He's so hot and cold. There isn't enough space to adequately recap our conversation here, but by the end of it, I couldn't help but think that he really, really wants to be in a relationship with me but he is, 1) scared to death, and 2) second guesses himself all the time. I think he would be relieved if I just cut him out of my life but he would also regret it. Is it that he just doesn't know how to do this? If that's the case, what do you veteran INTJs suggest I do...forget about him and cut him out of my life or help him 'be' in a relationship?

[DrEast]

Well, you seem to have identified his problems spot on, xtremegeek. Yes, he's scared, and yes, he second guesses himself a LOT. Yes, he'll regret it if you leave, and yes, he'll be relieved... but the relief will be somewhat short lived and the regret may well linger for much longer. I cheer for the INTJ, so I'd say help him out, but it's not gonna be easy if you do.

His self esteem sounds pretty low... he WILL NOT believe anyone could want to date him. So he's not going to believe YOU want to until you've actually been dating him for a while. But the choice is entirely up to you... he wants it, is he worth it?

[xtremegeek]

Well, you seem to have identified his problems spot on, xtremegeek. Yes, he's scared, and yes, he second guesses himself a LOT. Yes, he'll regret it if you leave, and yes, he'll be relieved... but the relief will be somewhat short lived and the regret may well linger for much longer. I cheer for the INTJ, so I'd say help him out, but it's not gonna be easy if you do.

His self esteem sounds pretty low... he WILL NOT believe anyone could want to date him. So he's not going to believe YOU want to until you've actually been dating him for a while. But the choice is entirely up to you... he wants it, is he worth it?

Without sharing some intimate detail (I respect the 'I'), I say yes he's worth it. Right now, I'm just very frustrated as to how to handle him. He's very fragile but doesn't even see it.

[DrEast]

Without sharing some intimate detail (I respect the 'I'), I say yes he's worth it. Right now, I'm just very frustrated as to how to handle him. He's very fragile but doesn't even see it.

You have grasped his essence, it sounds like. My work here is done!

[lordrrr]

I have an INTJ in my life. Don't ask me if we are dating or not because I have no idea. He calls me every day, sometimes we talk twice a day on the phone. But here is what I need help understanding:

1. His phobias - he's afraid of anything electrical; he's afraid of heights as if he doesn't trust himself to not jump off; he's very afraid of birds, tells me he has nightmares about birds. Do most INTJs have this many phobias?
2. If he does not want to be in a relationship, why does he call me every day?
3. When I ask him about our relationship, he clams up.
4. He makes comments about things he would like to do with me, (travel, projects, mission trips, painting pictures), but when I try to coordinate one of these, he won't commit. Are all INTJs extremely commitment phobic?
5. When he gets too close to me, he does things which seem to sabatoge it - like picking a fight; not talking to me for days; then acting like nothing happened. Is this a reaction to a sense of emotional vulberability?
6. Is it common for INTJ males to be promiscuous and just use women for sex? Are most INTJ males manipulative when it comes to women?

1. Yeah phobias arn't really related to type. I have a few myself but birds are DEFINANTLY not one of them. I adore birds, I have a pet finch myself. As for heights they arn't a huge scare for me.

2. Maybe he DOES want to be in a relationship but is waiting to see if you feel the same way before he sabatoges the friendship, though this doesn't sound too much like an INTJ thing to me.

3. He hates talking directly about the relationship. I absolutely cannot stand talking about feelings, I feel SO uncomfortable and exposed, I just can't handle it.

4. This probably means he doesn't want to undergo the mass anxiety of a "sorta kinda" date. I've been under those and all I do is worry, worry, worry to the point where it's just not worth it. I think a good way to combat this to make it easier for him is to REALLY sound interested in the idea and then maybe take a little initiaitive yourself to jump start it. Once his engine for something is running he will be loyal to you.

5. I think he's trying to say what he feels but at the times you fight with him he gets too close and wants to undo it as fast as possible, so he starts fighting to cover up perhaps what he was about to reveal. The acting like it never happened is something you too should do- if he acts like it never happened he REALLY just wants to get over it. Don't hurt him by bringing it back up, it will very much dappen your relationship with him.

6. Truly, it depends on the girl, but I make it a goal to at least make out with any girl I've ever been with- ending a relationship without a nice session like that is weaksauce. I'm waiting till marriage to have sex though, but I'm not so sure about how he'd feel. Anyways, I guess you could say I'm a bit promiscuous and I can't really say if this guy is as well.

[xtremegeek]

You have grasped his essence, it sounds like. My work here is done!

So you are letting this grasshopper loose eh...lol. I will continue to try. I have nothing to lose...not even a broken heart because he breaks my heart every day. A heart shattered into a million pieces can be reconstructed to become a beautiful mosaic - something the Italians know well.

Well, thanks for all the advice Doc. It certainly has been enjoyable to converse with you and others on this topic.

[azelismia]

So you are letting this grasshopper loose eh...lol. I will continue to try. I have nothing to lose...not even a broken heart because he breaks my heart every day. A heart shattered into a million pieces can be reconstructed to become a beautiful mosaic - something the Italians know well.

Well, thanks for all the advice Doc. It certainly has been enjoyable to converse with you and others on this topic.


I personally would give different advise. Set a limit and stick to it. Otherwise he's going to just keep breaking your heart. Dr East is projecting onto this guy, his own personality and it sounds to me like this guy you're dealing with has quite a few more walls and issues. Frankly, From what you've written I don't think he's going to come around and he may or may not have it bad for you. Don't let yourself get too set up for a fall here. I am not even sure this guy is really an intj and not just besieged with other issues that "look" like an intj. Honestly, If I were you I'd walk away from someone like this. you can only bang your head on a wall for so long before your head cracks and your brains fall out.

[DrEast]

I personally would give different advise. Set a limit and stick to it. Otherwise he's going to just keep breaking your heart. Dr East is projecting onto this guy, his own personality and it sounds to me like this guy you're dealing with has quite a few more walls and issues. Frankly, From what you've written I don't think he's going to come around and he may or may not have it bad for you. Don't let yourself get too set up for a fall here. I am not even sure this guy is really an intj and not just besieged with other issues that "look" like an intj. Honestly, If I were you I'd walk away from someone like this. you can only bang your head on a wall for so long before your head cracks and your brains fall out.

In my defense, I asked several times if she was willing to pursue this relationship regardless. While I'll admit that there's still the possibility of her getting stung here, that's a risk that always goes hand-in-hand with the real rewards. Since I can't be on the scene myself, what is an N supposed to do but project what he knows onto what he doesn't, and make a few leaps of pure intuition?

[azelismia]

In my defense, I asked several times if she was willing to pursue this relationship regardless. While I'll admit that there's still the possibility of her getting stung here, that's a risk that always goes hand-in-hand with the real rewards. Since I can't be on the scene myself, what is an N supposed to do but project what he knows onto what he doesn't, and make a few leaps of pure intuition?

no need to come to any sort of defense here, I was just giving a counter point as your advice seems overly optimistic to me. Nothing wrong with giving advice based on how you would act. I was just pointing out it's dangerous to do that when you're dealing with someone who is mentally unsound. She's made it very clear she is interested and given him time to digest it. He's still denying solid interest. Maybe he's really interested under all those prickles.... but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar... You can't force someone out of their shell and maybe he isn't interested but values her friendship and doesn't want to hurt her.

the other thing to remember here is that if he is an intj, the will it work criterion are in effect. as she's an SJ, he may have determined it just won't work as that's a common decision NT's make regarding SJ's.

furthermore, (no offense extremegeek honest) we're getting an SJ's take on an NT. He may not be all that neurotic. it may be greatly exaggerated. we are only hearing one side of the story and it's not the NT's side. to do my OWN projections here; My experience with SJ's has little things said greatly exaggerated and taken out of context. I've said things like, "Oh, I never eat from a buffet because who knows where all those hands have been" "Or I won't eat at crab houses even if they do have one chicken thing on the menu as cross contamination with crab could land me in the hospital" and be labelled as a total nut. My point is we don't know the dynamics. so encouraging it could be as harmful as it could be helpful. I would give the intj the benefit of knowing his own mind once the options have been presented.

Would you, Dr East, appreciate someone you aren't interested in who has made it apparent they are interested in you, chasing you regardless, even if you've tried to be nice?

Or, alternatively if you were kind of interested but you'd already made your decision based on this and that; would you appreciate intense pursuit?

you've already said you'd appreciate if it you were interested and playing hard to get, but if you were really REALLY interested and she made it clear she was interested would you really still play hard to get?

I find it hard to fathom.

[xtremegeek]

azelismia
Thanks for making me look at this from a different perspective. True - you folks do not have all the information and what you do have only comes from me. I can assure you he is an INTJ, he's taken the test several times at work and online. I'm an ISTJ with a moderate S, while he is an INTJ with a moderate N and J.
I guess I gravitate more towards DrEast' advice because it is a more positive approach, which also matches my personality and approach to life. My INTJ may have issues that I will never be able to resolve, and an iNtuitive type would write him off immediately, but my S says give him a chance and hold off judgement until I've gathered enough evidence to solidly determine whether or not he's worth it. Perhaps in the arena of deep human relations, S's might be a little better than N's because we don't discard someone so quickly. Why is an offset coin worth more than the millions of coins that were printed correctly? Why do we place a higher value on something that has a defect, except when it comes to humans...we devalue humans whom we deem to have some sort of defect. Why is that I wonder?
Anyhow, thanks for the input and making me think. Don't be offended if I chose to take the positive advice for now...not to say that I might not have to come back here in a few months and tell you were right...ooh SJs hate to tell NTs they're right...but I will.

[azelismia]

azelismia
Thanks for making me look at this from a different perspective. True - you folks do not have all the information and what you do have only comes from me. I can assure you he is an INTJ, he's taken the test several times at work and online. I'm an ISTJ with a moderate S, while he is an INTJ with a moderate N and J.
I guess I gravitate more towards DrEast' advice because it is a more positive approach, which also matches my personality and approach to life. My INTJ may have issues that I will never be able to resolve, and an iNtuitive type would write him off immediately, but my S says give him a chance and hold off judgement until I've gathered enough evidence to solidly determine whether or not he's worth it. Perhaps in the arena of deep human relations, S's might be a little better than N's because we don't discard someone so quickly. Why is an offset coin worth more than the millions of coins that were printed correctly? Why do we place a higher value on something that has a defect, except when it comes to humans...we devalue humans whom we deem to have some sort of defect. Why is that I wonder?
Anyhow, thanks for the input and making me think. Don't be offended if I chose to take the positive advice for now...not to say that I might not have to come back here in a few months and tell you were right...ooh SJs hate to tell NTs they're right...but I will.

lol, yeah. it goes both ways ;) As I said, I was just being a counter point, to try and help add a little grounding to the conversation. Only you and he know the dynamics. I hope it does work out for both of you, but on the other hand, it just doesn't' sound that hopeful to me from what you've said. It's not even a matter if he's worth it or not. it's that he's not making a move after you made your intentions clear. that makes it sound to me like he isn't really interested. Hopefully I am wrong :)

[Retz]

I'm certainly manipulative but I thrive on my partner's happiness I can't help it.

I find that to some degree manipulation is my form of communication, I look for everything I read most people like books and I judge them accordingly. I play on peoples fears I play on peoples wants but more for their benefit.

I don't crave human contact most of the time and I find that even when I'm in a relationship it's more of I trust them as much as I think I should depending on the situation and I treat them how I think they wanted to be treated.

In my opinion I would rethink the entire relationship. You have to find out what he wants, you have to know what you want and you have to look at it from a third person view then make your decision.

I could probably give you a fairly accurate analysis of the situation with more input but I find myself thinking it would be better if you make him feel like the most logical thing to do is to express himself to you and judge him by what he says.

That's how I motivate myself to do things I find some what difficult.

[xtremegeek]

I'm certainly manipulative but I thrive on my partner's happiness I can't help it.

Would you mind expanding upon that comment?

[NightHeron8]

Give and take. He gave, it's your turn. Are you familiar at all with horses or deer? It's a different timetable of communication entirely though the actual languages are similar and can be learned and implemented by humans with success. I think it might be comparable to INTJs and anything bordering on a relationship coming about. Monty Roberts called it 'join up' between a horse and a man. I think it's a fitting image for you to bat around. Key though is the man has to use the horse's language first. Go kneel in the (figurative) grass so he sees you and be patient if you want him to come over. But eat first, this might take days. I agree, out-and-out chasing is a bad idea. The object of your attention may be a deer which is by nature 3x's as flighty as a horse.

Maybe not so skittish, but waiting and attuned - very attuned from the willingness to keep coming around (phone). (in response to #32, 37, 46) Indeed, we're all waiting. More popcorn please.

Ah, and I do wish you well. I've had plenty of bad exp's myself to want to see good come and hope for a bit of that perhaps one day for myself.:curtain:

[xtremegeek]

NightHeron8:

Today is a good example. He did not call me yesterday or the day before, even though he said he would. When I called him this morning, I left a message and he called me within 15 minutes. He sounded happy, but very nervous...like a kid caught taking candy without permission. Should I always make it a point to call him if he does not call me when he says he's will?

And your advice is when he gets mad at me, don't acknowledge it. Pretend like all is right with the world? Is this because when he acts like he's mad at me, he's really mad at himself?

When we have discussed passed relationships, his failed relationships were always the other person's fault. Is this normal INTJ reaction to a failed relationship?

[azelismia]

NightHeron8:

Today is a good example. He did not call me yesterday or the day before, even though he said he would. When I called him this morning, I left a message and he called me within 15 minutes. He sounded happy, but very nervous...like a kid caught taking candy without permission. Should I always make it a point to call him if he does not call me when he says he's will?

And your advice is when he gets mad at me, don't acknowledge it. Pretend like all is right with the world? Is this because when he acts like he's mad at me, he's really mad at himself?

When we have discussed passed relationships, his failed relationships were always the other person's fault. Is this normal INTJ reaction to a failed relationship?


a normal intj response to a failed relationship would be to look at it rationally. I did this wrong adn they did that wrong. saying it's all someone else's fault is generally a cop out /emotional denial thing. It's rarely one persons fault unless the other person is a knife wielding maniac. Or one party was not into the other party and just called it off. I.e I really liked her but she didn't want to be with me. I think this could be called the other person's fault reasonably. if there were differences though, odds are it's ALWAYS going to be both parties at fault. so it really depends on the rest of the details.





azelismia added to this post, 1 minutes and 45 seconds later...

a normal intj response to a failed relationship would be to look at it rationally. I did this wrong adn they did that wrong. saying it's all someone else's fault is generally a cop out /emotional denial thing. It's rarely one persons fault unless the other person is a knife wielding maniac. Or one party was not into the other party and just called it off. I.e I really liked her but she didn't want to be with me. I think this could be called the other person's fault reasonably. if there were differences though, odds are it's ALWAYS going to be both parties at fault. so it really depends on the rest of the details.


the thing you have to remember about typing.. even if the test was administered professionally, it doesn't mean the person was typed correctly. If there are other mental problems they will alter what the end result looks like and the self image vs actual actions can differ skewing results. Just because someone in authority said something, does not make it necessarily true. From what you've said I have serious doubts as to this person being an intj.

[curiousjane]

I think getting a phone call when he says he will call you (especially if this is his primary form of communication) is very important.

That being said, sometimes life gets in the way. I get that.

[xtremegeek]

Is he truly an INTJ? Here are some things I've noticed that may/may not put him in the category:
1. Rarely smiles. He has this very pensive look, not quite the angry look. He looks at people as if he is looking right through them and that has scared off a few people.
2. He made a lot of money early in his career, then backed off a bit.
3. He is very detail oriented about money matters, but can't plan far in advance for a trip, or a date for that matter.
4. He walks goofy, like he's going to walk right into a wall. He's not athletic at all because he's too busy thinking; head in the clouds kind of thinking.
5. He is an introvert.
6. He always thinks he's right. I am always the one to say sorry and patch things up when we argue about something that seems to hurt his feelings (or whatever you INTJs have in place of feelings.) Your sense of being intellectually violated I guess is what it is.
7. He only has 2 very close friends. He's close to his family, a very small family.
8. He has an advanced degree and looks forward to being a fulltime student when he retires.
9. Hates lawyers - aren't most lawyers SJ's?
10. Has invested in some artwork. He wouldn't dare attempt to create a piece of art, but he likes art.
11. He's an only child.
12. He jumps to conclusions faster than I do, then I argue with him about gathering the facts (display of my SJ.)
13. He sings very, very off key, like he's tone deaf. That's not an INTJ trait, I just thought I would throw that one in there for fun. :-) (makings of a new thread "Do INTJs like to sing?")

[azelismia]

Is he truly an INTJ? Here are some things I've noticed that may/may not put him in the category:
1. Rarely smiles. He has this very pensive look, not quite the angry look. He looks at people as if he is looking right through them and that has scared off a few people.
2. He made a lot of money early in his career, then backed off a bit.
3. He is very detail oriented about money matters, but can't plan far in advance for a trip, or a date for that matter.
4. He walks goofy, like he's going to walk right into a wall. He's not athletic at all because he's too busy thinking; head in the clouds kind of thinking.
5. He is an introvert.
6. He always thinks he's right. I am always the one to say sorry and patch things up when we argue about something that seems to hurt his feelings (or whatever you INTJs have in place of feelings.) Your sense of being intellectually violated I guess is what it is.
7. He only has 2 very close friends. He's close to his family, a very small family.
8. He has an advanced degree and looks forward to being a fulltime student when he retires.
9. Hates lawyers - aren't most lawyers SJ's?
10. Has invested in some artwork. He wouldn't dare attempt to create a piece of art, but he likes art.
11. He's an only child.
12. He jumps to conclusions faster than I do, then I argue with him about gathering the facts (display of my SJ.)
13. He sings very, very off key, like he's tone deaf. That's not an INTJ trait, I just thought I would throw that one in there for fun. :-) (makings of a new thread "Do INTJs like to sing?")


none of those things would be exclusive to any type. Lawyers aren't typically SJ I think. I'd say more often ENTJ or Entp. you have to be able to look outside the box to be a lawyer. The N would be pretty necessary I'd think, to being a lawyer.

The only letters I'd assign him for sure are I and J. Is he a dreamer? are his ideas far reaching? do his ideas go outside of the box? From what you say I am inclined to think INFJ Maybe INfJ or IsfJ

[curiousjane]

The first 7 items on your list could describe my favorite INTJ. I suspect the last one might, as well, since he won't sing around me. ;)

[Jedi_sena]

I think it is especially easy to objectify people when you are an INTJ. But I find it odd that he can't define the relationship. Defining and putting things into a box, catagory, or file and having clear goals in mind--that's "what we do" in my opinion. We crave clarity not obscurity and it seems he would be eager to spell that clarity out to you once he realizes that you don't get where he's coming from. (I am often surprised that my clear intentions have not been interpreted by my husband. I think it is obvious, so I wrongly assume that he knows what is going on in my head and that he is on the same page.) The feelings might be difficult for him to express, but the "where is this going" ought to be openly disclosed unless the answer is something terribly unacceptable like "I want you to be the 12th woman in my harem" or something aweful to admit. If he's an INTJ, he knows exactly what he wants. We're not indecisive.

[DrEast]

I think it is especially easy to objectify people when you are an INTJ. But I find it odd that he can't define the relationship. Defining and putting things into a box, catagory, or file and having clear goals in mind--that's "what we do" in my opinion. We crave clarity not obscurity and it seems he would be eager to spell that clarity out to you once he realizes that you don't get where he's coming from. (I am often surprised that my clear intentions have not been interpreted by my husband. I think it is obvious, so I wrongly assume that he knows what is going on in my head and that he is on the same page.) The feelings might be difficult for him to express, but the "where is this going" ought to be openly disclosed unless the answer is something terribly unacceptable like "I want you to be the 12th woman in my harem" or something aweful to admit. If he's an INTJ, he knows exactly what he wants. We're not indecisive.

I'd disagree... we're like this except with romance. In romance, all bets are off, because objectivity is impossible.

[azelismia]

I'd disagree... we're like this except with romance. In romance, all bets are off, because objectivity is impossible.

not me. I am like this especially with romance.

[44sunsets]

I have an INTJ in my life. Don't ask me if we are dating or not because I have no idea. He calls me every day, sometimes we talk twice a day on the phone
...
6. Is it common for INTJ males to be promiscuous and just use women for sex?

Doesn't sound like any INTJ I've ever known. He sounds pretty screwed up (no offense intended).

As for Question 6, isn't that quintessentially true for every male with a reasonable level of sex drive? *shrugs*

[schwartzie]

As for Question 6,
(Is it common for INTJ males to be promiscuous and just use women for sex?)

isn't that quintessentially true for every male with a reasonable level of sex drive? *shrugs*

I suspect that, as compared to the general population, where there are Fs, it is more common for rationalists to rank sex somewhat higher than other kinds of emotional intimacy, just because there are pretty clear roadmaps for sexual intimacy, but less clear ones for other kinds of emotional engagement.

I don't think that INTJs, or, for that matter, introverts (male or female) are particularly inclined to engage in promiscuous sex, or to objectify their partners. Just the opposite, I suspect.

[Mafiaangel180]

So how did this turn out?

[xtremegeek]

So how did this turn out?

It's going nowhere fast. He calls regularly. He asks me what my work schedule is like. We have not seen each other for a month...just phone calls and e-mails. Perhaps the more correct statement to make is it's going nowhere period.

[Fruvous]

Of course I'm planning a book. I'm always planning a book. I've planned SO MANY books. I'll plot them all out in my head... theme, plot, characterization, sudden dramatic finale, love interest, time travel tricks, philosophy, world, systems of magic or science, tragic flaws, heroic endeavors, villains both fair and foul, surprise endings, even the cover art.

I've just never written a book. Someday, if I can get around to it, I will. I just have so many books I have to plan, I never have the time.
The fun part is always the part of you do entirely in your head. :P

[Henry]

I have an INTJ in my life. Don't ask me if we are dating or not because I have no idea. He calls me every day, sometimes we talk twice a day on the phone. But here is what I need help understanding:

1. His phobias - he's afraid of anything electrical; he's afraid of heights as if he doesn't trust himself to not jump off; he's very afraid of birds, tells me he has nightmares about birds. Do most INTJs have this many phobias?
2. If he does not want to be in a relationship, why does he call me every day?
3. When I ask him about our relationship, he clams up.
4. He makes comments about things he would like to do with me, (travel, projects, mission trips, painting pictures), but when I try to coordinate one of these, he won't commit. Are all INTJs extremely commitment phobic?
5. When he gets too close to me, he does things which seem to sabatoge it - like picking a fight; not talking to me for days; then acting like nothing happened. Is this a reaction to a sense of emotional vulberability?
6. Is it common for INTJ males to be promiscuous and just use women for sex? Are most INTJ males manipulative when it comes to women?

These traits are not explained by the fact that he may be an INTJ. These are more problems than personality attributes.

It's going nowhere fast. He calls regularly. He asks me what my work schedule is like. We have not seen each other for a month...just phone calls and e-mails. Perhaps the more correct statement to make is it's going nowhere period.

Move on. He's got problems, doesn't know what he wants, and ISTJ-INTJ is a terrible match.

The INTJ is the most independent and non-conformist of all the types. ISTJs are also independent, but ISTJs are typically into a variety of things that focus on tradition and order which will clash with the INTJ's non-conformity. Additionally, the ISTJ is probably the least intellectually flexible of any type, followed closely by the INTJ. This will cause a lot of knock-down fights. And you're likely to be annoyed by each other's reasoning styles and decision making patterns - ISTJs are all about means, INTJs are all about ends.

[xtremegeek]

True - he has no clue what he wants
True - he's got problems - BIG problems with relationships and he blames everyone else
True - it would be quite easy for me to blow him off and forget that he exists

He's become my friend, so I'm not going to drop him out of my life. I have given up on the idea of dating him...that's just not possible with him right now. He's just my friend.

As for ISTJ/INTJ pairings, successful relationships have little to do with MBTI typing. Using 4 letters to predetermine the success or failure of a relationship is a cop out. It's an excuse to not try and put forth the effort - IMHO.

[SimplyOtter]

xtremegeek, i find myself in a similar situation
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of course, being an INFP, i've been almost totally overwhelmed by my feelings and couldn't handle it with such humour and self confidence as you!
i'm really admired!

[xtremegeek]

xtremegeek, i find myself in a similar situation
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of course, being an INFP, i've been almost totally overwhelmed by my feelings and couldn't handle it with such humour and self confidence as you!
i'm really admired!

lostotter, I read your thread and I'm sorry for the pain you have experienced. May I suggest that you do not look at him with an 'all or nothing' perspective. This is what I've had to do with my INTJ and it really helps put things in perspective for me. I asked myself what do I really like and admire about him. And then I asked myself would I like and admire those qualities about him if he was just a peer or co-worker. For me the answer was yes, so I decided that I want to continue to communicate with him because he has something to offer me even if we are not in a romantic relationship. Basically, I've removed my feelings and measured him with objectivity.

What do you admire about him? Would you notice and admire him in a non-romantic setting?

Does it have to be 'he either loves me or he's history?' Can you keep him in your life because of other qualities he possesses? Perhaps now is not the right time for you two to be dating, but that does not mean that you two won't have a future together way down the road...so why totally push him out? Why not objectively keep him as your friend while you pursue your life's goals. Having an INTJ as a friend (male or female) is a nice thing to have.

It's hard for you to remove the feeling, but if you can do it, I think you may gain a lot. Feelings are tough for you INFP's. I wish you the best.

[SimplyOtter]

lostotter, I read your thread and I'm sorry for the pain you have experienced. May I suggest that you do not look at him with an 'all or nothing' perspective. This is what I've had to do with my INTJ and it really helps put things in perspective for me. I asked myself what do I really like and admire about him. And then I asked myself would I like and admire those qualities about him if he was just a peer or co-worker. For me the answer was yes, so I decided that I want to continue to communicate with him because he has something to offer me even if we are not in a romantic relationship. Basically, I've removed my feelings and measured him with objectivity.

What do you admire about him? Would you notice and admire him in a non-romantic setting?

Does it have to be 'he either loves me or he's history?' Can you keep him in your life because of other qualities he possesses? Perhaps now is not the right time for you two to be dating, but that does not mean that you two won't have a future together way down the road...so why totally push him out? Why not objectively keep him as your friend while you pursue your life's goals. Having an INTJ as a friend (male or female) is a nice thing to have.

It's hard for you to remove the feeling, but if you can do it, I think you may gain a lot. Feelings are tough for you INFP's. I wish you the best.
Thank you for reading my story.
It actually started as a work collaboration and then grew into friendship, so i know exactly all the qualities that i would admire in him in a non-romantic setting. They are many, indeed. I still think he's an extraordinary person. And it's the first time in my life that after feeling rejected i offered my friendhip to a man, as i totally thought he was worth the effort. I really tryed.
The thing that is driving me mad is that HE's not treating me as a friend, sometimes he looks really romantically interested, sometimes like now just pushes me away and i can't see a meaning in this, if i was just a friend to him. Have you seen your INTJ after you took your decision? Does he seem more relaxed or he's still moody? Do you talk more openly now?

[Henry]

As for ISTJ/INTJ pairings, successful relationships have little to do with MBTI typing. Using 4 letters to predetermine the success or failure of a relationship is a cop out. It's an excuse to not try and put forth the effort - IMHO.

If there were other things that worked about it, I would say to ignore the likely difficulties of the ISTJ and INTJ pairing. But as there are a lot of things that do not work here, I think its worth commenting on.

[Mafiaangel180]

I'm sorry it's going nowhere fast. :( My recommendation would be to throw him through a loop by shaking up his routine. He probably finds some sort of comfort by calling/emailing. And he needs to get out of his lil comfort zone. I would not answer the phone a couple of times when he calls you. Maybe wait several days before responding to an email. Hell, tell him you had a date, or don't tell him what you do. But regardless, get a date, do something, make it seem like you won't always be there for him. It will be an attempt to move on from him, but at the same time oddly it might make his lame ass wake up. Either way...you don't have anything to lose.

[Provoker]

DrEast:
Yes, I do want to date him. Now I need a strategy that I'm comfortable with - not to manipulate him, but to avoid scaring him off, since he seems to be fragile in the interpersonal relationship business.

Strategy and tactics are my forte so I'm going to draft a plan that you can implement. Hopefully, you will find at least some of my points instructive and actionable.

1) Go to the movies with him. It may sound trivial, but this is always what I do on first dates. The reasons are as follows. First, it's traditionally romantic. Second, the INTJ gets to study you and learn what types of things you laugh at and when you are moved and touched by something in the movie without talking to you directly. Thus he can absorb your mannerisms and body language and this will help establish a minimum level of trust. Taking this approach, you avoid - say - dinner which tends to presuppose a more intellectual conversation. I tend to think most INTJs would resist unleashing the full wrath of their intellect on the first date especially if he likes you - he won't want to risk scaring you off too soon. Thus, the purpose of this date is to establish a minimum level of trust.

If you sense that the date was a success, then you can move to the next stage which also must be done with dexterity and precision.

2) a. Go to a pub where you can have a few drinks. If the first date was mutually successful, and the INTJ is really digging you, then you will need to enter an environment that affords him the freedom to express himself. At this point, all sorts of ideas, emotions, tensions, lusts, and theories will have been brewing in the INTJs mind for a while and need to be published. However, there is probably so much tension and anxiety that you will need something to open him up - a little alcohol is good in this case.

2) b. If you or the INTJ aren't a big fan of pubs, I recommend engaging in a physical activity like rollerblading or taking him to the driving range. Whatever you do is arbitrary but the main thing is that it gives him a pretext to express himself. If you go rollerblading you can talk about anything that comes to mind as you do it and because you are expending energy he will likely be more relaxed.

3) Usually at about this point you've squeezed those dates into about two weeks or so and now the long conversations on the phone start. THis is where you share stories and now that you've built up the trust (a little anyways by INTJ standards) he can let his N run wild. Also, it is usually at this stage in the relationship that the INTJs feelings come out which the INTJ has trained his or herself to suppress.

4) If at this point, you've grown more and more fond of each other and what you do (where you go on dates) is merely arbitrary because you're beyond that. Now that the trust is in tact the INTJ can share what goes on inside his mind. You will likely have some deep discussions and the INTJ will discover whether your an apt sparring partner or not. If you can hold your own (in the intellectual shadow boxing) he will respect you, if you crumble or have no ideas or have no pride or offer no opposition what-so-ever he will get rid of you. Please note that you don't necessarily need grand theories, but if you don't have this you will need other intellectual strengths to compensate.

5) At this point it has been years, and if you're still together you are probably also best friends. It could be 5 years later and you find yourself staring at your INTJ partner wondering what he's thinking about while his face is stale and eyes are fixed. You look at him then look at what his eyes are fixed on and then look back at him with an inquiring look and say "what are you looking at?". The INTJ responds "What?" with a smile. Of course, his mind was not looking at the birds or pool table or baseball game on tv. No, the INTJ was only staring in that direction. His mind was somewhere else. Perhaps he was examining whether the rollback of democracy began under Putin or Yeltsin and reciting arguments in his head. You may find yourself left with the thought (I never know what he's thinking), and INTJs prefer it that way usually. Many people have told me I am the hardest person to read that they know. Incidentally, I take a certain level of pride in this.

Conclusion. I've been in a relationship for almost 5 years and (in general) this has been the logical progression of the relationship. I strongly recommend the first few points to get the snowball rolling. The later points aren't meant to be actionable, but rather to provide you with insight into what things may look like with your INTJ five years down the line if things work out.

[xtremegeek]

Provoker:

The rollback of democracy started under that drunkard Boris Yelstin...soo keen seen (s.o.b)

Thanks for your insights. I will hang onto those suggestions.





xtremegeek added to this post, 2 minutes and 24 seconds later...

If there were other things that worked about it, I would say to ignore the likely difficulties of the ISTJ and INTJ pairing. But as there are a lot of things that do not work here, I think its worth commenting on.

Good point.





xtremegeek added to this post, 4 minutes and 11 seconds later...

Thank you for reading my story.
It actually started as a work collaboration and then grew into friendship, so i know exactly all the qualities that i would admire in him in a non-romantic setting. They are many, indeed. I still think he's an extraordinary person. And it's the first time in my life that after feeling rejected i offered my friendhip to a man, as i totally thought he was worth the effort. I really tryed.
The thing that is driving me mad is that HE's not treating me as a friend, sometimes he looks really romantically interested, sometimes like now just pushes me away and i can't see a meaning in this, if i was just a friend to him. Have you seen your INTJ after you took your decision? Does he seem more relaxed or he's still moody? Do you talk more openly now?

For as long as I've known him, he's been a moody person and quite stubborn. It seems to flare up when there is an appearance of loss of control or a sense of invasion into his private world. He's more relaxed when he gets to do the majority of the talking, asking the questions, initiating the conversations, ending the conversations. As long as he has a sense of control, he's fine, but otherwise, he's moody.





xtremegeek added to this post, 702 minutes and 40 seconds later...

In a way I'm glad that I'm not dating him because I too am getting the opportunity to size him up for compatibility without the commitment. I would like for you folks to consider this possibility. He could be a gay guy who is in denial. Here are a few things that have made me file that notion in the back of my brain:
1. He has the largest shoe collection of any man I've ever known
2. His kitchen is one big Williams & Sonoma spending spree
3. His best guy friend picked out all the furnishings for his house
4. Other than his small family, the longest relationship in his life is with his best guy friend
5. When I saw him wear cowboy boots all I could think was "Broke Back Mountain"
6. In discussing his past relationships, the end of the relationship was always the woman's fault; the relationships never lasted long except for one but due to certain circumstances he was forced to stay longer than he wanted; the women all had something 'mental' about them which prompted him to break up with them (or so he claims.)

Deep down inside me I can't help but wonder if he might be gay but doesn't agree with homosexuality, therefore, he has a major internal conflict. Could he be gay? Or perhaps just a really socially inept dude? Weigh in with your votes. Sometimes it helps me to know from others if my 'S' is gathering the right data about someone and interpreting the data correctly.

[curiousjane]

I know several very straight guys with large shoe collections. More shoes than me, even. I also know guys who decorate their homes well. One or two of them are the shoe guys, too. My straight brother wears cowboy boots all the time. Most of my guy friends are GREAT cooks. One of them is obsessed with collecting copper pans. A lot of them purchase kitchen supplies like candy.

I am a straight woman who is closest to her girl friends.

But, having said that, you might be right. The reference to women is the one thing that strikes me as iffy. He could be gay; or he could be clueless.

[xtremegeek]

I know several very straight guys with large shoe collections. More shoes than me, even. I also know guys who decorate their homes well. One or two of them are the shoe guys, too. My straight brother wears cowboy boots all the time. Most of my guy friends are GREAT cooks. One of them is obsessed with collecting copper pans. A lot of them purchase kitchen supplies like candy.

I am a straight woman who is closest to her girl friends.

But, having said that, you might be right. The reference to women is the one thing that strikes me as iffy. He could be gay; or he could be clueless.

I've been leaning towards 'clueless.'

[curiousjane]

I've been leaning towards 'clueless.'

aren't they all ;)

[SimplyOtter]

P
It seems to flare up when there is an appearance of loss of control or a sense of invasion into his private world.

As long as he has a sense of control, he's fine, but otherwise, he's moody.


Ditto!
do you feel moodyness could depend on being unsure of his own feelings or it's just his personality? (like, is he moody with his best friend as well?)

[xtremegeek]

Ditto!
do you feel moodyness could depend on being unsure of his own feelings or it's just his personality? (like, is he moody with his best friend as well?)

His moodiness is with everyone. But my observation has been that the severity of the moodiness depends on how much he cares for the person. The more he cares for them, the moodier he is with them and expects them to just tolerate it.

[SimplyOtter]

His moodiness is with everyone. But my observation has been that the severity of the moodiness depends on how much he cares for the person. The more he cares for them, the moodier he is with them and expects them to just tolerate it.

Precisely. It's like" Ok, let's see now if you love me after this".
Unnu was telling me is like a very hard test they want you to go through.
IT's really cruel, but unfortunately (for my mental health) i can see a sort of a multiple reason behind that:

- Loving for them is to be true, so they don't want to appear better than what they are. I think what they hate most of the dating game is pretending to be a different person for the sake of the other.
- They might be even more scared than us of failure and rejection, so they sabotage themselves before this can happen.
- "Scaring you" they want to know if you are strong enough to stand on your own feet or you are emotionally demanding, which would deprive them of freedom, which is to them a death penalty.

These are just my impressions, and what i'm learning from INTJs replies, of course not being an INTJ i don't know if they are correct.

The thing that drives me mad is that, at the same time, i can:
- see all these things, and feel almost moved by this weird honesty of them
- feel utterly rejected and unloved

do you think that they know we can read into them, like they do with us?

[curiousjane]

Precisely. It's like" Ok, let's see now if you love me after this".
Unnu was telling me is like a very hard test they want you to go through.
IT's really cruel, but unfortunately (for my mental health) i can see a sort of a multiple reason behind that:

- Loving for them is to be true, so they don't want to appear better than what they are. I think what they hate most of the dating game is pretending to be a different person for the sake of the other.
- They might be even more scared than us of failure and rejection, so they sabotage themselves before this can happen.
- "Scaring you" they want to know if you are strong enough to stand on your own feet or you are emotionally demanding, which would deprive them of freedom, which is to them a death penalty.

These are just my impressions, and what i'm learning from INTJs replies, of course not being an INTJ i don't know if they are correct.

The thing that drives me mad is that, at the same time, i can:
- see all these things, and feel almost moved by this weird honesty of them
- feel utterly rejected and unloved

do you think that they know we can read into them, like they do with us?

You took the words out of my mouth. I have been studying INTJ behavior for months and months now, precisely because I care so much. I *know* the issues. I've been advised of the difficulties. Yet ... yet ... how is it that the waiting, and wishing, and hoping and confusion is just ... so HARD?

I think they know we can see it in them ... I think it scares them a little, and they put up their defenses.

I'm dealing with the INTJ defense mechanism at the moment. It's tough. But I'm tougher!

[xtremegeek]

Precisely. It's like" Ok, let's see now if you love me after this".
Unnu was telling me is like a very hard test they want you to go through.
IT's really cruel, but unfortunately (for my mental health) i can see a sort of a multiple reason behind that:

- Loving for them is to be true, so they don't want to appear better than what they are. I think what they hate most of the dating game is pretending to be a different person for the sake of the other.
- They might be even more scared than us of failure and rejection, so they sabotage themselves before this can happen.
- "Scaring you" they want to know if you are strong enough to stand on your own feet or you are emotionally demanding, which would deprive them of freedom, which is to them a death penalty.

These are just my impressions, and what i'm learning from INTJs replies, of course not being an INTJ i don't know if they are correct.

The thing that drives me mad is that, at the same time, i can:
- see all these things, and feel almost moved by this weird honesty of them
- feel utterly rejected and unloved

do you think that they know we can read into them, like they do with us?

Yes they know when someone can read them, and it really bothers them.





xtremegeek added to this post, 5 minutes and 8 seconds later...

You took the words out of my mouth. I have been studying INTJ behavior for months and months now, precisely because I care so much. I *know* the issues. I've been advised of the difficulties. Yet ... yet ... how is it that the waiting, and wishing, and hoping and confusion is just ... so HARD?

I think they know we can see it in them ... I think it scares them a little, and they put up their defenses.

I'm dealing with the INTJ defense mechanism at the moment. It's tough. But I'm tougher!

I'm learning that being 'tougher' than an INTJ really means being 'gentler' too. Don't run from them while they try to figure out how to deal with their feelings, but also don't bully them. It's like that doe in a field pretending not to see the buck...she doesn't run, but she continues to gently roam the field while the buck watches and observes and inches his way forward. Geeze it's such a long, drawn-out process. But they are so cute.

[schwartzie]

....I'm learning that being 'tougher' than an INTJ really means being 'gentler' too. Don't run from them while they try to figure out how to deal with their feelings, but also don't bully them. Geeze it's such a long, drawn-out process.

An awful lot of this depends on the person you're dealing with, too, and doesn't necessarily translate to any and all INTJs at all times. Some INTJs may not have been in a satisfying relationship recently -or if younger, may never have been, or may have feeling or thoughts that reflect social marginalization (that 1% thing can have, I think, a pretty profound effect on people - we adapt to alienation; see ourselves as 'different;' expect to be wounded, esp. by the other gender, who come with an apparent socially-packaged agenda, etc.) Other INTJs, who have been in affirming situations, or otherwise were spared social damage, may not present these challenges (like they have no problem and appreciate the ability of another to "read" them.

Xtremegeek, take all of this commentary from us, your chorus of interested advisors, with a grain of salt. After all, we know almost nothing about what else is going on in your target's life. Situational stuff can make a big difference. And we know almost nothing about his level of "libido," which can also make a huge difference in intimate relationships.
In either case, "gentler" absolutely always is the winning path. Keep "tougher" for yourself--take care of yourself.

[xtremegeek]

I am pretty sure that this INTJ has not developed healthy relationship skills. He's an only child; one of his parents died when he was young; the other parent re-married and he expressed feeling "abandoned" when that happened; he had a brief marriage in college that was horrible and very impulsive on his part (married the first girl who had sex with him); and has since gone through a number of short-lived relationships with women.

I don't think he has ever experienced a healthy, long-term relationship. He does not know how to work at a relationship. The BIG question in my mind is, can he learn to work at having a healthy intimate relationship. I have my doubts...well at least I doubt that I can teach him.

[SimplyOtter]

You took the words out of my mouth. I have been studying INTJ behavior for months and months now, precisely because I care so much. I *know* the issues. I've been advised of the difficulties. Yet ... yet ... how is it that the waiting, and wishing, and hoping and confusion is just ... so HARD?

Jane, today i'm thinking that it's so hard because we try so much to understand that we forget how nice is sometimes to feel understood.

I think they know we can see it in them ... I think it scares them a little, and they put up their defenses.


You are probably right. I know i sound really negative, but i'm thinking now that maybe they just don't want to be seen. How do we know we are doing the right thing breaking their defenses? I'm personally thinking i'm giving up, so take my comment under this perspective. Let me know how things are enfolding for you.



I'm learning that being 'tougher' than an INTJ really means being 'gentler' too. Don't run from them while they try to figure out how to deal with their feelings, but also don't bully them. It's like that doe in a field pretending not to see the buck...she doesn't run, but she continues to gently roam the field while the buck watches and observes and inches his way forward. Geeze it's such a long, drawn-out process. But they are so cute.

I really liked the image of the doe and the buck. This is how it should be like, but i think my very cute friend isn't that interested in observing me enough though. He seems more interested in the field. Sigh. :(

[curiousjane]

Jane, today i'm thinking that it's so hard because we try so much to understand that we forget how nice is sometimes to feel understud.

Wow. That really hit me. You're right. You're very, very right. That's one of the things that feels a little "off" to me right now. While I in no way expect that he would research my type as much as I have researched his (after all, I fell in love with this place all on my own ... it's been less about him and more about you guys since about day 4 into my membership :thumbsup:) it would feel like absolute BLISS to have someone try to know and understand ME.

Other types? Are you listening? Pure happiness for INFPs is to be desired for who they are when at rest, and to be loved and understood at the deepest levels. We have barriers, like any introvert, but they are more like callouses, built up over time from past experiences. Underneath it all we are big softies who are more than willing to let you in, totally and completely, once we trust you and know you love us.

[Marcus]

Other types? Are you listening? Pure happiness for INFPs is to be desired for who they are when at rest, and to be loved and understood at the deepest levels.

What does "being understood" for you means?
Following your logic, getting to the same conclusion, understanding your behavior, understanding your motivations, sharing your emotions, accepting your limits or something else?

[curiousjane]

What does "being understood" for you means?
Following your logic, getting to the same conclusion, understanding your behavior, understanding your motivations, sharing your emotions, accepting your limits or something else?

Good question. I would say, from your list, understanding my behavior (what makes it uniquely mine), understanding my motivations (it's a lot easier to be yourself when people get WHY things are important to you and why you do them that way), accepting limits ...

But, really, it all boils down to "do you know me?" Do you know my likes/dislikes and pay attention to them? Do you support my goals? Do you encourage my dreams? Do you pick up on mannerisms and their root cause? (For instance, my brother watches his wife and knows when she's not feeling well, based on facial expressions, and tries to take care of her needs, even when she refuses to voice them ... she's stubborn that way!) Could you pick a book out for me at a bookstore? Do you identify with my sense of humor? Can you identify concepts, ideas, causes, and intellectual topics that I would be likely to find fascinating? If I'm hungry, would you know what kind of food I'd like to eat?

Like I said ... how well do you know me? Or want to know me?

Because if you just fill in the blanks with what you might assume about me, you're probably wrong. And if you project your own personality, type, and interests on me, you're probably wrong.

If you take the time to watch, observe, and learn ... you'll find it easier to predict the patterns of my life, and will know how best to make me happy.

Just like I should do for you. 100%/100%. That's the way to go. Not 50%/50%.

:)

[SimplyOtter]

For me this is what made the trick today:

It seems as though everyone's beat this subject to death, but I just wanted to say that reading your story reminded me why I love my own INFP so much...just that quiet intelligent emotion. I offer you what little consolidation I may in that INTJ's don't necessarily do what is purely logical...only what is logical in our own minds.

I just thought: this is how it should feel like. Somebody appreciating the very fact that you are different from him and spontaneously offers you a very nice thought about it.
I don't know. It meant a lot to me.

[Firebrand9]

I am pretty sure that this INTJ has not developed healthy relationship skills. He's an only child; one of his parents died when he was young; the other parent re-married and he expressed feeling "abandoned" when that happened; he had a brief marriage in college that was horrible and very impulsive on his part (married the first girl who had sex with him); and has since gone through a number of short-lived relationships with women.

I don't think he has ever experienced a healthy, long-term relationship. He does not know how to work at a relationship. The BIG question in my mind is, can he learn to work at having a healthy intimate relationship. I have my doubts...well at least I doubt that I can teach him.

Consider that he's more than likely testing you to see if you have the perseverance necessary to sustain the quality of relationship that he is looking for and also that you will not also abandon him (leading to more social withdrawing/ineptness and further feelings of alienation with people). You must be long-sighted if you are to succeed. If you are so quickly willing to throw in the towel based on "I don't get him right this instant/I must have him now" then you are essentially proving his theory right; that you don't indeed have what it takes to stick by him.

Think of this saying when you deal with him : "The race does not always go to the swift but those who keep running". *If* you can be both patient and understanding, then you can have him. INTJ's don't like to waste time so the fact that he's talking to you at all means that he probably does like you and is simply testing you.

[xtremegeek]

Consider that he's more than likely testing you to see if you have the perseverance necessary to sustain the quality of relationship that he is looking for and also that you will not also abandon him (leading to more social withdrawing/ineptness and further feelings of alienation with people). You must be long-sighted if you are to succeed. If you are so quickly willing to throw in the towel based on "I don't get him right this instant/I must have him now" then you are essentially proving his theory right; that you don't indeed have what it takes to stick by him.

Think of this saying when you deal with him : "The race does not always go to the swift but those who keep running". *If* you can be both patient and understanding, then you can have him. INTJ's don't like to waste time so the fact that he's talking to you at all means that he probably does like you and is simply testing you.

Yes he probably is testing me. But he also has problems. He will dart in and out of my life for the indefinite future, and that's ok. I will remain a rock as far as friendship goes. I have no expectations of him right now as far as romantic relationship. Whether he realizes it or not, he needs to have a rock of a friend first. That I can be.

[Marcus]

Good question. I would say, from your list, understanding my behavior (what makes it uniquely mine), understanding my motivations (it's a lot easier to be yourself when people get WHY things are important to you and why you do them that way), accepting limits ...
With INFPs, accepting limits is the hardest part for me. I can empathize with their problems, but don't understand why they don't see the solution I see. Another thing is that they tend to work on one solution without carefully considering pros and cons for others (I guess they use Fi for choosing a solution they like). And this funny relationship with time... I would say I rather get used to these things than understand them.


But, really, it all boils down to "do you know me?" Do you know my likes/dislikes and pay attention to them? Do you support my goals? Do you encourage my dreams? Do you pick up on mannerisms and their root cause? (For instance, my brother watches his wife and knows when she's not feeling well, based on facial expressions, and tries to take care of her needs, even when she refuses to voice them ... she's stubborn that way!) Could you pick a book out for me at a bookstore? Do you identify with my sense of humor? Can you identify concepts, ideas, causes, and intellectual topics that I would be likely to find fascinating? If I'm hungry, would you know what kind of food I'd like to eat?
These things come natural to me. I like to figure out a person. Picking out a book for someone is my favorite activity. I imagine that I'm the 'target' person and use my intuition. (Last time I spent more than hour in the bookstore to pick out a book for my father.)


Like I said ... how well do you know me? Or want to know me?

Because if you just fill in the blanks with what you might assume about me, you're probably wrong. And if you project your own personality, type, and interests on me, you're probably wrong.
While there is not enough data, people tend to fill in the gaps somehow. That can lead to misunderstanding.


If you take the time to watch, observe, and learn ... you'll find it easier to predict the patterns of my life, and will know how best to make me happy.

Just like I should do for you. 100%/100%. That's the way to go. Not 50%/50%.
:)
Ok, I think I got your idea.

[ElstonGunn]

Yes they know when someone can read them, and it really bothers them.

The more you understand a person, the easier it becomes to predict his behavior. If you can predict his behavior, you can pin him down and control him. If someone else is controlling you, you're not in control of yourself. That's not automatically bad, but it definitely scares the hell out of a certain type of person (ahem).


I'm learning that being 'tougher' than an INTJ really means being 'gentler' too. Don't run from them while they try to figure out how to deal with their feelings, but also don't bully them.

As apt as the deer metaphor was, I also thought of that story about how the wind and the sun made that bet about who could get a guy to take off his coat first. The wind gusted as hard as it could and tried to blow it off, and the guy just pulled it closer around himself. Then the sun came out and shined on the guy and warmed him up. Within seconds he took his coat off.

Or the ol' fly-catching proverb, what with the vinegar and honey.

So I guess my point has something to do with forcing people to do things compared to enticing them or letting them do the same thing. Or something. I don't even know if I have a point. You can make up your own point for all I care.

[xtremegeek]

The more you understand a person, the easier it becomes to predict his behavior. If you can predict his behavior, you can pin him down and control him. If someone else is controlling you, your not in control of yourself. That's not automatically bad, but it definitely scares the hell out of a certain type of person (ahem).




As apt as the deer metaphor was, I also thought of that story about how the wind and the sun made that bet about who could get a guy to take off his coat first. The wind gusted as hard as it could and tried to blow it off, and the guy just pulled it closer around himself. Then the sun came out and shined on the guy and warmed him up. Within seconds he took his coat off.

Or the ol' fly-catching proverb, what with the vinegar and honey.

So I guess my point has something to do with forcing people to do things compared to enticing them or letting them do the same thing. Or something. I don't even know if I have a point. You can make up your own point for all I care.

LOL...ok, I'll make up my own point all the while appreciating your attempt. :-)

[SimplyOtter]

The more you understand a person, the easier it becomes to predict his behavior. If you can predict his behavior, you can pin him down and control him. If someone else is controlling you, you're not in control of yourself. That's not automatically bad, but it definitely scares the hell out of a certain type of person (ahem).

:) i see some light!!! thank you !!!



As apt as the deer metaphor was, I also thought of that story about how the wind and the sun made that bet about who could get a guy to take off his coat first. The wind gusted as hard as it could and tried to blow it off, and the guy just pulled it closer around himself. Then the sun came out and shined on the guy and warmed him up. Within seconds he took his coat off.

it's a lovely story. I liked it alot. but what would be the equivalent of the sun for you? waiting? hoping? having faith? loving from distance? (it's 10 months of this struggle, you see. i'm exhausted.)

[xtremegeek]

:) i see some light!!! thank you !!!

it's a lovely story. I liked it alot. but what would be the equivalent of the sun for you? waiting? hoping? having faith? loving from distance? (it's 10 months of this struggle, you see. i'm exhausted.)

If this INTJ had not been in your life for the past 10 months, what would you have done differently? How would you have lived those 10 months differently?

[jadefalcon]

I have an INTJ in my life. Don't ask me if we are dating or not because I have no idea. He calls me every day, sometimes we talk twice a day on the phone. But here is what I need help understanding:

1. His phobias - he's afraid of anything electrical; he's afraid of heights as if he doesn't trust himself to not jump off; he's very afraid of birds, tells me he has nightmares about birds. Do most INTJs have this many phobias?
2. If he does not want to be in a relationship, why does he call me every day?
3. When I ask him about our relationship, he clams up.
4. He makes comments about things he would like to do with me, (travel, projects, mission trips, painting pictures), but when I try to coordinate one of these, he won't commit. Are all INTJs extremely commitment phobic?
5. When he gets too close to me, he does things which seem to sabatoge it - like picking a fight; not talking to me for days; then acting like nothing happened. Is this a reaction to a sense of emotional vulberability?
6. Is it common for INTJ males to be promiscuous and just use women for sex? Are most INTJ males manipulative when it comes to women?


1) I don't think phobias are indicative of anything with INTJs- I don't like heights either and I respect electricity as an engineer. Different folks have different fears- I knew someone that had a fear of balloons and everything about them.

2) He does want to be in a relationship, even if he denies it. That's what my brain tells me.

3) I would clam up too- depending on the level of INTJ it will take me a lot of guts to start to open up about stuff regarding "feelings". I would give it some time and spend time with him- I would get to know him more so that he would feel more comfortable talking. We can have a hard time saying what we really want to, and sometimes what we want to say doesn't come out right or not at all.

4) I can be somewhat like that. I want to start a new project or try something new, but then I see the difficulty in the hobby or a difficulty getting started. Finding a time to do something is key when both of you are not busy.

5) I would say yes.

6) No, being logic bound I don't think many INTJs would just use women, since they hate being manipulated, thus they hate manipulating and avoid it as much as possible. I am also honor bound myself and would never do such a thing.

[SimplyOtter]

If this INTJ had not been in your life for the past 10 months, what would you have done differently? How would you have lived those 10 months differently?

This is a very good point, indeed. It made me think a lot, today.
I think i arrived to the following conclusions:
- i did all the things i had planned to do before meeting him, so i know that i haven't screwed up my life for this missed relationship.
- i feel like he indirectly gave me more inputs for the future and for my life than i have had in the last 10 years.
- i grew up and opened my eyes on new ways of approaching the world

In one word, i think that i see what you mean. "Focus on the good things and keep living your life". I'll do that. Again, it's a very good point that you made.
Sometimes though, i'd feel just like cuddling up beside him and forget about all the rest. And i can't do that. Do you know what i mean?