Poker

[strategistintj]

Does anybody know if INTJ can excel in poker games. For example: can they train themselves to know the opponents card like Daniel Negreurson.

[ischuldt]

Yes. We pretty much dominate at poker. I bought the book super system just to see if I was missing something and I felt like I wrote the book.

[lostchaos]

On any given day anyone of any type can excel at poker, but I do believe that introverted thinkers are given a slight edge. And btw, I'm going to go ahead and assume you meant Daniel Negreanu. While it's true he has had moments where his tells have been impressive (I remember a time when I saw him fold a flush to a full house late in a tournament), at the same time his tells aren't exactly infallible, especially if you want to consider that he holds the record for single biggest loss in high stakes poker history.

[strategistintj]

On any given day anyone of any type can excel at poker, but I do believe that introverted thinkers are given a slight edge. And btw, I'm going to go ahead and assume you meant Daniel Negreanu. While it's true he has had moments where his tells have been impressive (I remember a time when I saw him fold a flush to a full house late in a tournament), at the same time his tells aren't exactly infallible, especially if you want to consider that he holds the record for single biggest loss in high stakes poker history.

Yes it is Daniel Negreanu. Do you think it is intuition that gives him good insights into what other person is holding?

---------- Post added 08-13-2010 at 11:55 PM ----------

Yes. We pretty much dominate at poker. I bought the book super system just to see if I was missing something and I felt like I wrote the book.

Ofcourse most of the poker books are written by INTJs.

[zibber]

Yes it is Daniel Negreanu. Do you think it is intuition that gives him good insights into what other person is holding?

He's been grinding for MANY years. You can't teach yourself experience by any other means than experience itself.

[sms444]

I know some INTJs who are good at poker, and some who aren't. I am at a final table of a 27 man tourney on Pokerstars as I type...My INTJ friend just went out in 7th place in the same tourney.

[dalsgaard]

While everyone seems to overestimate their own poker skills, I'm confident that I'm pretty good at it. Until I get impatient that is......

I don't socialize around the table, I just sit and think about my strategy. So when people are caught up in their talking and don't realize that it's their turn again and again I get angry and impatient losing my concentration.

[zibber]

On the topic of poker - anyone else stoked for this year's World Series? Had a ton of fun checking out the first episode of the new tourney.

[INTJoe]

I post on the 2+2 poker forum about 5 times the rate I post here. Tons of those guys are INTJ. So yes, I'm pretty sure being INTJ helps when mastering poker.

Also, Daniel Negreanu is a cash game fish who makes most of his money from donkaments and sponsorships. His play on last season's High Stakes Poker was laughably terrible.

[dalsgaard]

I post on the 2+2 poker forum about 5 times the rate I post here. Tons of those guys are INTJ. So yes, I'm pretty sure being INTJ helps when mastering poker.

Also, Daniel Negreanu is a cash game fish who makes most of his money from donkaments and sponsorships. His play on last season's High Stakes Poker was laughably terrible.

It's more likely that the people who frequent forums dedicated toward strategies and systems are predominately INTJ. It's not that they are good poker players, it's just that you have to be INTJ or close to even visit a board like that. :)

[INTJoe]

Of course selection bias enters the picture but that site is huge, and the results were so overwhelming that I determined that there must be a correlation.

High Stakes Poker is by far the best poker show. It's so much better than watching a donkfest. Dwan, Ivey, and Antonius are probably my favorite NLHE players to watch.

A sick cash game hand (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) between Tom "durrrr" Dwan and Phil "God" Ivey from last season.

It's not too surprising, really. Ni is our primary function. Poker is making decisions based on incomplete information, and Ni facilitates that better than any of the 7 other traits.

[dalsgaard]

You're right. It takes a special kind of mastermind to be a pro poker player.

Tom Dwan was a pleasure to watch on high stakes. Great entertainment. Fearless

[INTJoe]

I didn't say it takes a special kind of mastermind to be a pro poker player. Jeez.

Leap to conclusions much?

I enjoy railing the nosebleed tables on Full Tilt. One afternoon last November I watched Ivey take $1,000,000 from Dwan over the course of a few hours of heads up Pot-limit Omaha.

[dalsgaard]

Sorry. I wasn't trying to step on your toes, just wanted to share my love for the show.

I've seen a couple of games recorded from full tilt on youtube. It's so fast I can barely keep up with the fold-fold-fold-fold-bet-fold

[INTJoe]

I used to play 6 tables at once when I played limit holdem online. A lot of people out there play many more tables than that. Limit holdem is so mechanical though that the decisions are very clear-cut.

When playing No Limit I would play 2 or 3 tables max.

[strategistintj]

He's been grinding for MANY years. You can't teach yourself experience by any other means than experience itself.

I taught of mentioning this earlier in the post but it seemed like a big talk.

When I master a poker book for example, then temporarily my winning rate skyrockets. This is confusing for me because then when I master another book the previous skills I have learned kind of loses their power/value and this happens when it comes to poker or some other probability or chance games. So basically, when I followed the lessons (experience from mistakes) of what other people have learned has certainly help me. Its not that you are wrong but most experiences can be learned and mastered quickly then wasting our time grinding for years.

---------- Post added 08-15-2010 at 08:26 AM ----------

I used to play 6 tables at once when I played limit holdem online. A lot of people out there play many more tables than that. Limit holdem is so mechanical though that the decisions are very clear-cut.

When playing No Limit I would play 2 or 3 tables max.

Have you played real money yet? What part of you have relied on more to take out the artisan opponents? Can you mention some very effective books or skills that I have to master as an INTJ?

Too many questions I have asked but can't help it.

---------- Post added 08-15-2010 at 08:44 AM ----------

Of course selection bias enters the picture but that site is huge, and the results were so overwhelming that I determined that there must be a correlation.

High Stakes Poker is by far the best poker show. It's so much better than watching a donkfest. Dwan, Ivey, and Antonius are probably my favorite NLHE players to watch.

A sick cash game hand (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) between Tom "durrrr" Dwan and Phil "God" Ivey from last season.

It's not too surprising, really. Ni is our primary function. Poker is making decisions based on incomplete information, and Ni facilitates that better than any of the 7 other traits.

The video is good. So is Dwan an INTJ?

[INTJoe]

I play real money. Do you not play real money? Play money tables are not a good indicator if those are the only tables you are crushing.

The only book I've ever read was Small Stakes Holdem by Sklansky/Miller/Malmuth. It's a great book for learning the fundamentals of low-buyin limit games.

Theory of Poker is supposedly very good for beginners.

I have no idea if Dwan is an INTJ. I know he's a multi-millionaire though. He's probably got Asperger's. He's kind of an odd dude but a brilliant NL player.

You need to post on 2+2 forums. Some big-time pros post there regularly. Daniel Negreanu, Greg Raymer, Barry Greenstein, Tom Dwan all post there fairly often. And tons of other high-stakes grinders you've not heard of.

And when guys like Negreanu say on TV "I knew you had 99" they are full of crap for the most part. Putting a no limit player on 2 specific cards is a futile effort. You put them on a range of hands then make an educated decision.

Like, if you know your opponent will 3-bet preflop in a 6-handed no limit game with hands ranging from 88-AA and any 2 paint cards (educated guesses based on table aggression, his position, and past experiences) and you hold pocket tens and want to figure out where you stand you can do some quick math:

There are 6 ways he can have each of 88, 99, JJ, QQ, KK, AA.
There is 1 way he can have TT (same hand as you)

There are 16 ways each he can hold AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, or QJ.

There are 24 ways you are crushed (him holding a pocket pair higher than TT)

There are 12 ways you are crushing (him holding 99 or 88)

There are 96 ways in which it's roughly a coinflip, where you actually have like a 52/48 edge. That's if he holds any 2 non-paired cards higher than your Tens.

So you might conclude that it's not good to 4-bet him here, seeing as the hand seems weighted in his favor. Even if you throw in a combo of trash hands that he's possibly bluffing with (like 47, 96, etc.) You crush those hands. But anyway you may determine that those instances do not outweight the negatives.

You can then determine folding to his re-raise is a bit week with a fairly strong pocket pair. And you probably won't 4-bet so you might decide calling and seeing a flop is the best option. Stack sizes also are hugely important. If it is deep-stacked poker you can make a slighty -EV (negative expected value) call preflop if you think you can get his entire stack if you flop a set of Tens.

Poker is a fascinating game that's for sure.

[strategistintj]

You sound like a well experienced player.

"Poker is a fascinating game that's for sure."

Yes, poker is infinitely filling gaps game and I don't get bored easily but on the other hand I either get impatient (even while winning or had to wait long), angry, frustrated (when people annoy me through chat) or discouraged (when I lose or luck or winning cards is not in my favor).

Maybe getting past these weaknesses is vital I think.

---------- Post added 08-15-2010 at 02:55 PM ----------

While everyone seems to overestimate their own poker skills, I'm confident that I'm pretty good at it. Until I get impatient that is......

I don't socialize around the table, I just sit and think about my strategy. So when people are caught up in their talking and don't realize that it's their turn again and again I get angry and impatient losing my concentration.

I too get impatient sometimes. Fear even when playing fake chips and a chance winning come my way. Poker is psychological game I could say.

[INTJoe]

I understand some of the basics but I have too many leaks in my game to be a substantial winner in the long-run.

I get sort of bored or lose focus and start getting sloppy, making bad bluffs or folding to aggression. I also tilt easily which isn't good. And when I play online I chat like crazy, ripping on fish and cracking jokes and stuff.

My favorite game is pot-limit omaha, which I seem to have a larger edge over opponents than I do in holdem.

I got really into playing HORSE online (Holdem, Omaha hi/lo, Razz, Stud hi, Stud hi/lo) for a while. Stud is a tough game. You really gotta remember everyone's cards.

If I play on a cruise ship I play a completely different style than online. When playing drunk retards you want to play A,B,C poker. Don't get crafty, don't fall prey to "fancy-play syndrome", don't bluff, etc. If you have a good hand, value bet it. If you have a bad hand, get out. Online you have to play way more creatively as the players aren't drunk tourists.

Playing $1/$2 No Limit holdem on my last cruise I left up $455 after about 12 hours of play total during the week. Some old man won like $3,000 during the week. He was playing very solidly and was always at the table so everyone recognized him and wanted to stay out of his pots so he'd just C-bet every flop and take it down playing smallball. Usually that doesn't work but everyone recognized him and just stayed out of his way. If someone played back at him he knew to just fold and wait for next hand.

[strategistintj]

"I get sort of bored or lose focus and start getting sloppy, making bad bluffs or folding to aggression. I also tilt easily which isn't good. And when I play online I chat like crazy, ripping on fish and cracking jokes and stuff."

Every bit of this information seems to mirror my experience as well. Everything you have have shared seems to be consequences and so the actual problem could be in the INTJ processors itself.

Have you tried taking some time off to relax when this happens and when you start playing again do you still face the drawbacks?

mine improves if my overheated head took some rest. My brain gets fried easily because I am thinking and imagining at the same time, the thinking is so intense as well. But I do so well in both bluffing people, judging the right cards but when the processor is over heated it leaves me hanging in the mid game and lose as well.