Is there any way to get through to an ISTJ?

[Evalind]

As some of you know, my family is basically full of INTJs. Me, my youngest brother, and my dad.

My middle brother, however, is an ISTJ and can't see the forest for the trees sometimes. We've been trying for well over a year to get him out of a bad, emotionally abusive, relationship and have finally, sort of, succeeded. He's out physically at least, though mentally he's not. He doesn't have that ability to play through possible future scenarios like we do, to see that she'll tear him down beyond all repair if he stays with her. Also, ISTJs are strict "duty before pleasure" people, and he feels responsible for her. She uses fear tactics in her abuse, she rages and makes threats to harm herself, and it's his "duty" to keep the peace and make sure she stays safe and alive.

Any suggestions for a "just the facts" approach to helping him? I really wish I could just thrust a few more points of iNtuition on him, heh, but that doesn't work.

[Rei]

Remind him that while it is perfectly fine to put duty over pleasure, it is a stupid notion to put others over yourself. If you don't keep yourself in top shape, you can't take care of others or it'd be a bad plus worse situation.

There are other people out there that require protection, and it's not from something they put onto themselves. Anyone who threatens to hurt themselves do not deserve protection (unless she's insane, in which case she should just go see a shrink).
It's not one person's responsibility to take care of everyone they encounter. You can't take care of someone if they keep undoing it by refusing to take care of themselves.

[xtremegeek]

As some of you know, my family is basically full of INTJs. Me, my youngest brother, and my dad.

My middle brother, however, is an ISTJ and can't see the forest for the trees sometimes. We've been trying for well over a year to get him out of a bad, emotionally abusive, relationship and have finally, sort of, succeeded. He's out physically at least, though mentally he's not. He doesn't have that ability to play through possible future scenarios like we do, to see that she'll tear him down beyond all repair if he stays with her. Also, ISTJs are strict "duty before pleasure" people, and he feels responsible for her. She uses fear tactics in her abuse, she rages and makes threats to harm herself, and it's his "duty" to keep the peace and make sure she stays safe and alive.

Any suggestions for a "just the facts" approach to helping him? I really wish I could just thrust a few more points of iNtuition on him, heh, but that doesn't work.

ISTJ here - I wish I could tell you that your 'N' can change his 'S' but it can't. Loyalty and sticking with someone through the good and the bad are ISTJ traits, to the detriment of our own health. I'm going to guess that your brother is fairly young (teens, early twenties.) ISTJs gather data, all day long, throughout their whole lives. Once your brother has enough data, he'll make a determination about the relationship and there's nothing you can do about it. If he breaks up with her (mentally), chances of him dating someone like her again are slim to none, because he now has the data which says "warning." As he gets older and has accumulated loads of data about relationships, he'll start to balance out and make wiser choices for mates and friends.

ISTJs are all about data. Frustrating, I know, but perhaps you can admire your brother for his loyalty...not too many people have loyalty these days.

[jtskinner]

I have a friend who is ISTJ, we get along pretty good to tell you the truth. Only I'm the philosophical one :thumbsup:.

[xtremegeek]

I have a friend who is ISTJ, we get along pretty good to tell you the truth. Only I'm the philosophical one *:thumbsup:.

LOL...yes the INTJs I know are also the philosophical ones. They like to torment me with their 'reasoning', but I do enjoy and admire them.

[Evalind]

ISTJ here - I wish I could tell you that your 'N' can change his 'S' but it can't. Loyalty and sticking with someone through the good and the bad are ISTJ traits, to the detriment of our own health. I'm going to guess that your brother is fairly young (teens, early twenties.) ISTJs gather data, all day long, throughout their whole lives. Once your brother has enough data, he'll make a determination about the relationship and there's nothing you can do about it. If he breaks up with her (mentally), chances of him dating someone like her again are slim to none, because he now has the data which says "warning." As he gets older and has accumulated loads of data about relationships, he'll start to balance out and make wiser choices for mates and friends.

ISTJs are all about data. Frustrating, I know, but perhaps you can admire your brother for his loyalty...not too many people have loyalty these days.


Oh, I know I can't change him, I just wish I could. :P I think one of the biggest problems is that he's NEVER (to my knowledge at least) had good self-esteem. That, and, he's been in two relationships in his life, back to back. He hasn't been single since he was 16. I am, at least, comforted to hear he probably won't date someone like her again once he finally gets enough data to break up with her for good. The best news is that I think his "duty" to his new baby daughter (who is currently in foster care due mostly to the gf's mental health) will override his "duty" to the girlfriend... that is, if his "duty" to try and keep the new "family" together doesn't override everything. Yeah, we never would have gotten him out if the gf hadn't possibly messed up her chances at getting custody of the daughter.

[xtremegeek]

ISTJ here - I wish I could tell you that your 'N' can change his 'S' but it can't. *Loyalty and sticking with someone through the good and the bad are ISTJ traits, to the detriment of our own health. *I'm going to guess that your brother is fairly young (teens, early twenties.) *ISTJs gather data, all day long, throughout their whole lives. *Once your brother has enough data, he'll make a determination about the relationship and there's nothing you can do about it. *If he breaks up with her (mentally), chances of him dating someone like her again are slim to none, because he now has the data which says "warning." *As he gets older and has accumulated loads of data about relationships, he'll start to balance out and make wiser choices for mates and friends. *

ISTJs are all about data. *Frustrating, I know, but perhaps you can admire your brother for his loyalty...not too many people have loyalty these days.


Oh, I know I can't change him, I just wish I could. :P I think one of the biggest problems is that he's NEVER (to my knowledge at least) had good self-esteem. That, and, he's been in two relationships in his life, back to back. He hasn't been single since he was 16. I am, at least, comforted to hear he probably won't date someone like her again once he finally gets enough data to break up with her for good. The best news is that I think his "duty" to his new baby daughter (who is currently in foster care due mostly to the gf's mental health) will override his "duty" to the girlfriend... that is, if his "duty" to try and keep the new "family" together doesn't override everything. Yeah, we never would have gotten him out if the gf hadn't possibly messed up her chances at getting custody of the daughter.


Does he have a tendency to drink too much alcohol? Broken-down ISTJs drink too much and until they get a handle on the drinking, their reasoning skills in everyday situations are very bad. Equate it to when your 'N' is drastically off and you make a mistake...you beat yourself up over and over again for allowing your intuition to be wrong. When an ISTJ fails to gather 'all the facts' before making a decision, their self-esteem is shot, and that's where alcohol comes into the picture. ISTJs are serious, pessimistic people, couple that with alcohol, which is a mood depressant drug, and you got yourself the makings of a very dysfunctional ISTJ...but they come across as functional at their jobs or in school because they are "worker bees." If this is the situation, then you and your family members telling him to get out of the relationship is merely adding salt to his wounds...he knows he made a mistake. Just say to him, "Hey little bro, whatever you decide, I'm there for you." If he feels your loyalty instead of your disdain, he might be able to pull himself out of it.

[Rei]

I have a friend who is ISTJ, we get along pretty good to tell you the truth. Only I'm the philosophical one :thumbsup:.

LOL...yes the INTJs I know are also the philosophical ones. They like to torment me with their 'reasoning', but I do enjoy and admire them.
I'm just too lazy to gather the data, and would rather reason it out with what I know intuitively. It's good to know the facts/get the data though; that's why I love having S's around.

[The Rose]

Oh, I know I can't change him, I just wish I could. :P I think one of the biggest problems is that he's NEVER (to my knowledge at least) had good self-esteem. That, and, he's been in two relationships in his life, back to back. He hasn't been single since he was 16. I am, at least, comforted to hear he probably won't date someone like her again once he finally gets enough data to break up with her for good. The best news is that I think his "duty" to his new baby daughter (who is currently in foster care due mostly to the gf's mental health) will override his "duty" to the girlfriend... that is, if his "duty" to try and keep the new "family" together doesn't override everything. Yeah, we never would have gotten him out if the gf hadn't possibly messed up her chances at getting custody of the daughter.

Healthy self-esteem is important for avoiding abusive relationships. That takes a long time to improve. A person puts up with what they think they deserve. A person with healthy self-esteem would never put up with abuse, manipulation and control because they would immediately know they didn't deserve to be treated that way.

Your hope lies in your brother's sense of protection coming into play for his child. He will probably protect the child from the unfit mother.

[Evalind]

Does he have a tendency to drink too much alcohol? Broken-down ISTJs drink too much and until they get a handle on the drinking, their reasoning skills in everyday situations are very bad. Equate it to when your 'N' is drastically off and you make a mistake...you beat yourself up over and over again for allowing your intuition to be wrong. When an ISTJ fails to gather 'all the facts' before making a decision, their self-esteem is shot, and that's where alcohol comes into the picture. ISTJs are serious, pessimistic people, couple that with alcohol, which is a mood depressant drug, and you got yourself the makings of a very dysfunctional ISTJ...but they come across as functional at their jobs or in school because they are "worker bees." If this is the situation, then you and your family members telling him to get out of the relationship is merely adding salt to his wounds...he knows he made a mistake. Just say to him, "Hey little bro, whatever you decide, I'm there for you." If he feels your loyalty instead of your disdain, he might be able to pull himself out of it.
He doesn't drink. At all. The last alcohol he had was probably communion wine before he left home for college. Anyway, we probably are adding salt to the wound because he IS a very dysfunctional ISTJ. Is there a way to "fact" him into getting professional help for his low self-esteem/depressed tendencies?

[Evalind]

Your hope lies in your brother's sense of protection coming into play for his child. He will probably protect the child from the unfit mother.
Here's hoping!! I'm just not sure he has enough trust in his own abilities to think he could do better, thus he may not see her as unfit. It's scary stuff.

[xtremegeek]

He doesn't drink. At all. The last alcohol he had was probably communion wine before he left home for college. Anyway, we probably are adding salt to the wound because he IS a very dysfunctional ISTJ. Is there a way to "fact" him into getting professional help for his low self-esteem/depressed tendencies?

Good question...this is where ISTJs are like INTJs - we don't trust most people with our minds, so getting professional psychiatric help for him is a stretch. I would say to him you've noticed "trends" in his behavior. State what the trends are then ask him what he thinks. This is tough though because the delivery of your message is what will determine whether or not he has an honest and open conversation with you or if he simply will try to place the focus of the conversation on you and your personality. If he's honest and open then you might be able to plug in the idea of him seeing a counselor, specially if he is convinced that it's for the benefit of the child. It's important that he thinks the counseling is for the benefit of the ones he loves and not simply because he's messed up. ISTJs quietly work to please others and need to be appreciated, so if he thinks that counseling will help the child and he will be appreciated by his family for doing this, then he just might do it.

[Evalind]

Good question...this is where ISTJs are like INTJs - we don't trust most people with our minds, so getting professional psychiatric help for him is a stretch. I would say to him you've noticed "trends" in his behavior. State what the trends are then ask him what he thinks. This is tough though because the delivery of your message is what will determine whether or not he has an honest and open conversation with you or if he simply will try to place the focus of the conversation on you and your personality. If he's honest and open then you might be able to plug in the idea of him seeing a counselor, specially if he is convinced that it's for the benefit of the child. It's important that he thinks the counseling is for the benefit of the ones he loves and not simply because he's messed up. ISTJs quietly work to please others and need to be appreciated, so if he thinks that counseling will help the child and he will be appreciated by his family for doing this, then he just might do it.
Thank you so much for the help on this. I'll work on giving him more praise and appreciation for putting his daughter first. Then, maybe, when it looks like he's moved mentally & emotionally farther away from the bad relationship, I can encourage him to seek professional help so he'll be equipped with all the possible tools he may need to raise the baby. He'll want her to be happy and healthy emotionally, after all. :) Sounds like an ok plan?

[xtremegeek]

Thank you so much for the help on this. I'll work on giving him more praise and appreciation for putting his daughter first. Then, maybe, when it looks like he's moved mentally; emotionally farther away from the bad relationship, I can encourage him to seek professional help so he'll be equipped with all the possible tools he may need to raise the baby. He'll want her to be happy and healthy emotionally, after all. :) Sounds like an ok plan?

Yes, just proceed with caution since he seems broken. He'll most likely do what's best for the child. Some of the best people I've encountered in my life have been broken ISTJs and broken INTJs. The inner strength and confidence they develop as a result of pulling themselves out of a personal crisis is amazing. Hopefully, that's what will happen with your brother.