View Full Version : Chivalry should be dead
Guido
09-27-2007, 10:27 AM
So I'm going into my building at work with my lunch. We have a set of doors that is at the front of the building that open outwardly. At the same time I am entering, this lady is trying to exit. I clearly get to the door first, open it and walk in. Instead of opening up the second door (which she was standing right in front of (the entrance has 2 doors)) which would allow us each to pass without getting in each other’s way, she waits for me to fully enter and pass her. She then proceeds to go through the door I used and while passing says "Charming..." in French. I really wish I was an ISTP at this point so I could deliver some tasteless one liner :-/ but I didn't fully realize what had happened until it was too late.
I'm generally not a rude person, and will hold the door open for many people regardless of gender, if it doesn't make the situation awkward. If holding the door open impedes efficiency, I just won't do it. No offense to any women here, but I fail to see how this lady can expect equal pay and the right to vote if she still wants to be treated like a doll. If I was dating a girl, or even if she was a close friend and she liked it when people held the door open for her, I wouldn't even mind that so much. But this is a perfect stranger expecting me to hold a door open her... wtf.
I guess this is a bit of a rant, but this just happened and I hate being talked down to. Thoughts?
Firelie
09-27-2007, 10:40 AM
*shrug* Some people just have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement.
If someone opens a door for me, I say thank you. If someone doesn't open a door for me, I open it myself.
The only time I get a little annoyed is if I'm obviously struggling with huge armfuls of stuff and people don't bother helping...but then, I don't just expect the men to help with the door, I expect anyone within reach of the door to help...and really the only reason I get annoyed is because anyone can hit the handicapped button with very little effort and the door opens on its own, but some people won't even do that.
The Rose
09-27-2007, 10:58 AM
...She then proceeds to go through the door I used and while passing says "Charming..." in French. ...You didn't do anything wrong.
She's an idiot-
probably an ESTJ.
rwyatt365
09-27-2007, 11:24 AM
I'll hold the door for anyone, to me it's a courtesy NOT a right. Women don't get a "bye" simply because of their gender.
The only folks I'll go out of my way for in this regard are the elderly, or someone (man, woman, child, martian) struggling because of something(s) they are carrying or because of a perceived inability. Other than that, you're on your own!
The Rose
09-27-2007, 11:52 AM
I'll hold the door for anyone, to me it's a courtesy NOT a right. Women don't get a "bye" simply because of their gender. *
The only folks I'll go out of my way for in this regard are the elderly, or someone (man, woman, child, martian) struggling because of something(s) they are carrying or because of a perceived inability. Other than that, you're on your own!I feel exactly the same way.
As a woman, if I see a man wants to hold the door for me,
I smile and thank him very nicely,
but I don't expect it.
However one does hope common courtesy would prevail when one is struggling with an awkward or heavy load.
Tarrick
09-27-2007, 12:56 PM
IF it's convenient I'll hold the door open for anyone, regardless of age or gender. If it's not, then I won't.
The only time I really make exceptions is if someone is carrying a heavy/large load.
Well if you were going in opposite directions it's plainly stupid to expect someone else to hold the door if there are 2 doors.
If there is one, only if you happen to come at the door at the exact same time does one offer to pass after.
If you are going in the same direction, and the next person coming needs a hand, I hold the door and walk after. If the person is right behind me I make sure the door doesn't hit them, if the person is a little further back, standing and waiting is just too awkward.
This reminds me of a short story... that's happened to me numerous times.
So I usually open doors when waiting for my family members to exit/enter a restaurant/mall/___________ (enter other public places with lots of traffic). Sometimes other people walk by, and they don't even look at you and keep walking. Seriously, I wanted to throw my shoe at the back of their heads.
Was she hot? Maybe that's why she expected you to be "charming" ;D
But yeah, definately not an INTJ :D
Though I must say there ARE some things men should always do - or at least try to do whenever possible without major awkwardness - for women.
Firelie
09-27-2007, 01:09 PM
Though I must say there ARE some things men should always do - or at least try to do whenever possible without major awkwardness - for women.
Like what?
The Rose
09-27-2007, 01:13 PM
...Though I must say there ARE some things men should always do - or at least try to do whenever possible without major awkwardness - for women.Really? Like what?
The Rose
09-27-2007, 01:14 PM
Enquiring minds want to know... ;)
Tarrick
09-27-2007, 01:15 PM
Hey where did equality go?! If men are obligated to do things for women, wheres the reciprocating actions?!
...Though I must say there ARE some things men should always do - or at least try to do whenever possible without major awkwardness - for women.Really? Like what?
I can't think of many off the top of my head.
But stuff like walking them home if it's after dark. *(even though I usually refuse if offered)
Help carry things she's struggling with!
This is just a general precaution, but it's a good thing when at a restaurant, you have the sense to sit on the side of the table where the waiter serves. *It's also nice when walking on the sidewalk, to always walk on the outside near traffic.
I mean, mainly things that should be done because men DO tend to be more physically strong than women.
I guess generally it's just manners and knowing what to do at the right times... which shouldn't be a problem for N's anyway...
Hey where did equality go?! If men are obligated to do things for women, wheres the reciprocating actions?!
I open doors, offer jackets, help carry things, talk about what they like to talk about, offer help to people with twisted ankles/broken legs.
I do as much as I can out of respect... plus I'm really nice *;D
But really, you can't REALLY expect a woman to help a grown man with a heavy box.
Firelie
09-27-2007, 01:58 PM
But really, you can't REALLY expect a woman to help a grown man with a heavy box.
Why not? *Maybe he just needs another hand on the bottom to keep his fingers from slipping.
<edit: Bottom of the BOX...just to clarify.>
Tarrick
09-27-2007, 02:03 PM
But really, you can't REALLY expect a woman to help a grown man with a heavy box.
Why not? Maybe he just needs another hand on the bottom to keep his fingers from slipping.
<edit: Bottom of the BOX...just to clarify.>
/Laugh
Yes, Firelie. That's exactly what I mean....Really.... ;)
A girl who can operate her own car door without difficulty is a keeper.
Guido
09-27-2007, 09:12 PM
But stuff like walking them home if it's after dark. *(even though I usually refuse if offered)
Safety purposes are ok.
Help carry things she's struggling with!
Efficiency is too.
This is just a general precaution, but it's a good thing when at a restaurant, you have the sense to sit on the side of the table where the waiter serves. *It's also nice when walking on the sidewalk, to always walk on the outside near traffic.
Princess services as well, but only if we're dating. :P
But really, you can't REALLY expect a woman to help a grown man with a heavy box.
Why not? *Maybe he just needs another hand on the bottom to keep his fingers from slipping.
<edit: Bottom of the BOX...just to clarify.>
Yes of course to lend a hand, but you wouldn't expect a woman to go and take the box from him. *Where as if it were a woman carrying a heavy box, a male by-stander should probably help her with it.
This is just a general precaution, but it's a good thing when at a restaurant, you have the sense to sit on the side of the table where the waiter serves. *It's also nice when walking on the sidewalk, to always walk on the outside near traffic.
Princess services as well, but only if we're dating. :P
Well that was the point.
A girl who can operate her own car door without difficulty is a keeper.
oh come on people. Opening car doors from time to time is a sweet thing to do :thinking:
wedekit
09-27-2007, 09:18 PM
Yeah, I have problems with this sometimes too. If I have my mind on something else I tend to forget to hold the door open for other people. Sometimes someone will even mention a word or two about how I should hold the door open for women. I never understood why I should. Honestly, I don't even know why I do it...
Women are liberated, like they should be. But still, is it so hard to open your own doors, kill your own bugs, and just be happy you can vote without signing up for the draft? :thumbsup: (Of course I'm not suggesting all women are like this, but we all know that they do exist.)
oh come on people. Opening car doors from time to time is a sweet thing to do :thinking:
I do, not that I have had many opportunities. If it's expected, there's something wrong with them.
Tarrick
09-27-2007, 09:54 PM
I do, not that I have had many opportunities. If it's expected, there's something wrong with them.
Agreed. How can it be a genuine kindness to do it if its not of our free will?
Firelie
09-27-2007, 10:11 PM
Women are liberated, like they should be. But still, is it so hard to open your own doors, kill your own bugs, and just be happy you can vote without signing up for the draft? *:thumbsup: (Of course I'm not suggesting all women are like this, but we all know that they do exist.)
As the resident bug-eliminator in every house I've been a part of, I can honestly say I have no idea why so many people squeal at the sight of a little spider or a beetle on the wall. Sure, some insects are poisonous, but you don't have to scream over every single one on the off chance that it might be scary...just take your shoe off and smack it to death, it's much smaller than you and will die easily. Sheesh.
Tarrick
09-27-2007, 10:14 PM
Agreed Firelie. I mean, assuming it can't jump across the room and rip your throat out, there's no need to scream like that.
Firelie
09-27-2007, 10:18 PM
Agreed Firelie. I mean, assuming it can't jump across the room and rip your throat out, there's no need to scream like that.
Heh, yeah...like the Rabbit of Caerbannog...with nasty big pointy teeth...
Tarrick
09-27-2007, 10:23 PM
Yes. That is something people are allowed to run away from in terror.
Uggh
Bugs are the one thing I'm afraid of. *Rats, snakes... they're all fine.
But of course, my sister's a freak about bugs. *She jumps 2 meters perpendicularly away from the bug and shrieks.
So yeah, I've done my fair share of bug killing... while I shiver with UGHHHH
We used to have a lot of flies over the summer... my dad and I used to kill them with elastic bands.. fun times
wedekit
09-27-2007, 11:14 PM
My best friend has a bug phobia. If she sees one she runs out of the room (knocking over anything and anyone in her path) crying and begging anyone to kill it. I know it's an irrational fear, but all it takes is a shoe and a little bit of aim to completely end the bug's existence.
My best friend has a bug phobia. If she sees one she runs out of the room (knocking over anything and anyone in her path) crying and begging anyone to kill it. I know it's an irrational fear, but all it takes is a shoe and a little bit of aim to completely end the bug's existence.
yeah... meanwhile, you don't know if you've killed the eggs inside the bug that you've officially released by squashing it... :scared:
Tarrick
09-27-2007, 11:26 PM
yeah... meanwhile, you don't know if you've killed the eggs inside the bug that you've officially released by squashing it... :scared:
I had a nest of little 1/8 inch black things hatch next to my bookcase a few weeks ago. That was fun.
rwyatt365
09-28-2007, 04:50 AM
A girl who can operate her own car door without difficulty is a keeper.
A girl that will pump her own gas is a keeper. A girl that will offer to pump YOUR gas is a goddess! ;)
Tarrick
09-28-2007, 08:02 AM
A girl that will pump her own gas is a keeper. A girl that will offer to pump YOUR gas is a goddess! ;)
I feel that certain emotes, like winking and nudge, are appropriate here. In any case, I'd settle for someone what would take turns or flip for it.
Firelie
09-28-2007, 09:42 AM
A girl that will pump her own gas is a keeper. A girl that will offer to pump YOUR gas is a goddess! *;)
I feel that certain emotes, like winking and nudge, are appropriate here. In any case, I'd settle for someone what would take turns or flip for it.
Here in Oregon, strangers pump your gas for you. ;D
:thinking: *I'll pretend I didn't see that last part.
to Firelie: ;D
I'm just curious, would any girls here change your own tire if it was blown on the road? *I'd change my own tire if I could. (mainly because my previous experience with waiting for CAA help was horrible. *You sit there for an hour waiting for help that takes 15 minutes. *:thinking: )
Firelie
09-28-2007, 09:51 AM
Well, first I'd have to have a car, then I'd have to know HOW to change a tire, then I'd have to have the proper equipment somewhere in said car... but yeah, I'd change it. You know, if I knew how 'n stuff. Much easier to call AAA, though.
Jezebel
09-28-2007, 10:46 AM
This is just a general precaution, but it's a good thing when at a restaurant, you have the sense to sit on the side of the table where the waiter serves. It's also nice when walking on the sidewalk, to always walk on the outside near traffic.
I'm way behind on this thread but I just caught this. I'm female and I never even notice things like that, let alone expect them. Was anyone else aware of these particular social rituals? (whether or not you agree with them)
Tarrick
09-28-2007, 10:52 AM
Well, first I'd have to have a car, then I'd have to know HOW to change a tire, then I'd have to have the proper equipment somewhere in said car... but yeah, I'd change it. You know, if I knew how 'n stuff. Much easier to call AAA, though.
It's not that hard. The biggest pain is jacking it up off the road. Second thing is you have to be strong enough to undo the lug nuts. So not hard, assuming you're physically capable of doing it.
And before anyone slams me for that, I once had a overtightened nut on my vehicle. Me and my friend broke two wrenches, rounded it off and had one pneumatic wrench fail to take it off. I would guess it was tightened to about 400 pounds somehow.
This is just a general precaution, but it's a good thing when at a restaurant, you have the sense to sit on the side of the table where the waiter serves. It's also nice when walking on the sidewalk, to always walk on the outside near traffic.
I'm way behind on this thread but I just caught this. I'm female and I never even notice things like that, let alone expect them. Was anyone else aware of these particular social rituals? (whether or not you agree with them)
My family generally does the restaurant thing. Asian restaurants involve hot tea all the time. So as a safety thing women and children sit away from the place the waiter serves. It also makes it easier for the men to pay... but that's irrelevent for us.
In terms of the traffic thing, I didn't know about this either, but I read it some where and thought it made sense =/.
Well, first I'd have to have a car, then I'd have to know HOW to change a tire, then I'd have to have the proper equipment somewhere in said car... but yeah, I'd change it. You know, if I knew how 'n stuff. Much easier to call AAA, though.
It's not that hard. The biggest pain is jacking it up off the road. Second thing is you have to be strong enough to undo the lug nuts. So not hard, assuming you're physically capable of doing it.
And before anyone slams me for that, I once had a overtightened nut on my vehicle. Me and my friend broke two wrenches, rounded it off and had one pneumatic wrench fail to take it off. I would guess it was tightened to about 400 pounds somehow.
Yeah... that's why I said "if I could." I've done it before... but there's also been a time I completely failed and had to call CAA for help.
By the way... here's a good one
Give women a hand up/down steps or through rough terrain if she's been forced to wear high heels for an occasion.
Seems fair doesn't it? *Men are never forced to wear high heels
Tarrick
09-28-2007, 01:21 PM
By the way... here's a good one
Give women a hand up/down steps or through rough terrain if she's been forced to wear high heels for an occasion.
Seems fair doesn't it? Men are never forced to wear high heels
/Groan. High heels....
I once took a friend of mine by the arm up a icy hill for a quarter mile because I couldn't drive up it and she, of course, was wearing very inappropriate footwear.
Women should never wear high heels. I hate them because they are illogical and totally impractical.
What fool came up with such a stupid shoe design? I bet they were French.
Jezebel
09-28-2007, 01:29 PM
Give women a hand up/down steps or through rough terrain if she's been forced to wear high heels for an occasion.
Seems fair doesn't it? Men are never forced to wear high heels
Yeah, I'd like to see someone try to force me to wear high heels. Maybe my man could help me out by kicking their ass?
Here in Oregon, strangers pump your gas for you. ;D
I was about to pepper-spray and ASP this guy when I first came to Oregon and found out about this.
Here I am, it's the middle of the night, and I pull off to get gas. At the station I get out and eye the gas pump when someone starts making a bee-line for me. I back into the car, grab the stuff, and when they come looking at my car I'm like "what the hell are you doing?". It's a crazy commie state, I'll say that. Worse yet, they had no clue how to even put the gas in my car - clearly bad news...
I came across a girl the next time, and she couldn't figure out how to fill my gas tank, either.
Moral of the story: Stay away from armed guys that have never been to your communist utopia, and learn where the gas cap is on common cars.
I think I have the first continuation of the following sentence:
"You may have found a female INTJ if..."
Give women a hand up/down steps or through rough terrain if she's been forced to wear high heels for an occasion.
Seems fair doesn't it? Men are never forced to wear high heels
Yeah, I'd like to see someone try to force me to wear high heels. Maybe my man could help me out by kicking their ass?
Tarrick
09-28-2007, 01:39 PM
To a Female INTJ, what is a good example of chivalry?
Jezebel has already answered.
Women should never wear high heels. *I hate them because they are illogical and totally impractical.
What fool came up with such a stupid shoe design? *I bet they were French.
Probably were the French.
But anyhow, I generally wear runners. But you know... high heels are right up there with the night gown and whatever else cumbersome crap you have to wear to formals/proms/weddings. I mean, if I were a tad taller I'd say screw it with the heels, but I'm not, and I look like an idiot in those things calld dresses if I'm not in heels.
I see girls wearing stillettoes in the middle of winter with ice on the ground and everything. The most amazing thing is that the main walk on my campus is a brick road, and obviously with yearly snow, it'll never stay even. I don't know why/how girls ever get the idea of wearing heels on campus... EVER. Why even dress up for class where 80% is asleep and the other 20% is actually paying attention to the lecture anyway?
Tarrick
09-28-2007, 02:06 PM
I don't know why/how girls ever get the idea of wearing heels on campus... EVER. Why even dress up for class where 80% is asleep and the other 20% is actually paying attention to the lecture anyway?
The teacher?? :o
Firelie
09-28-2007, 02:08 PM
Here in Oregon, strangers pump your gas for you. * ;D
I was about to pepper-spray and ASP this guy when I first came to Oregon and found out about this.
Here I am, it's the middle of the night, and I pull off to get gas. *At the station I get out and eye the gas pump when someone starts making a bee-line for me. *I back into the car, grab the stuff, and when they come looking at my car I'm like "what the hell are you doing?". *It's a crazy commie state, I'll say that. *Worse yet, they had no clue how to even put the gas in my car - clearly bad news...
I came across a girl the next time, and she couldn't figure out how to fill my gas tank, either.
Moral of the story: Stay away from armed guys that have never been to your communist utopia, and learn where the gas cap is on common cars.
lol I have to admit, the first time I drove into Oregon I had a similar experience...not much startles me, but a tiny Indian man fluttering at me and shooing me back into the car when all I wanted to do was fill the gas tank was certainly a "wtf" moment.
Tarrick
09-28-2007, 02:17 PM
You realize that chivalry hasn't really been discussed for about 2.5 pages, right? So, back on topic people! Focus!
Chivalry? Dead? Not? Or Different?
You realize that chivalry hasn't really been discussed for about 2.5 pages, right? So, back on topic people! Focus!
Chivalry? Dead? Not? Or Different?
Just different...
There are a lot of things that are pointless these days because the circumstances are different.
I mean... imagine when men had to take of their jackets and lay it over a puddle for women to walk on... *:o
I'll hold a door for someone, I'm usually not in too much of a hurry anyways. Carrying a strangers box...probably not, that's like imposing to me...Coat over the puddle!!...I'm likely to be inside reading, if it's raining and crappy outside.
I'll hold a door for someone, I'm usually not in too much of a hurry anyways. Carrying a strangers box...probably not, that's like imposing to me...Coat over the puddle!!...I'm likely to be inside reading, if it's raining and crappy outside.
Hum... back to the topic of door opening.
My university's old physics/chemistry building has 2 doors in the main entrance separated by a door-width "wall". *Every time I try to get in that building it JUST so happens to be the time everyone gets off class. *As a result, the doors a both flooded by a flow of people walking against me. *And I end up standing in between the doors until everyone's gone through.
Now I ask would it be so much to ask if I wanted someone to pause and just let me pass first? *:thinking:
Once I was pushing a cart full of boxes, and someone offered to open the door for me, but the problem was I couldn't pass the door while he was holding the door. *That was awkward and embarassing
Coat over a puddle:
So would I... unless I was in the wierd mood to get wet and nutzo... but that would mean putting a coat over a puddle impedes my getting wet process... so no, I'll never expect anyone to do that for me :D
Personally i think it stems from the fact that a woman these days does not want to look inferior infront of a male. Cause that would be a sign of weakness. From what i have witness males are more excepting of another male opening the door then a man opening for a woman. Strange society we live in.
futureperfect5
09-29-2007, 10:12 AM
New here, sorry if this is an intrusion -- most replies seem to agree with you.
Personally, I have no idea for the reason that equal pay and the right to vote as a citizen have anything to do with manners.
You were either raised with courtesy, politeness and manners or you valued them enough to learn yourself. [Of course, you may be untrained and uninterested.]
Likewise, I for one am not sure if "convenience" comes into play -- especially if you mention Chivalry. Chivalry was an extension of nobility: faith, charity, justice, sagacity, prudence, temperance, resolution, truth, liberality, diligence, hope, and valour.
:'( Politeness and manners could be completely separate.
Or, maybe you were just attracted to her and cannot admit it to yourself.
Guido
09-29-2007, 11:10 AM
... o.0
I would say that I was trained but uninterested. Manners in general are a big waste of time. There is purpose behind some, but the vast majority of 'manners' only exist because people expect you to do them. For who knows how long, women have been treated like dolls: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Expecting the benefits of this, while condemning the drawbacks is very hypocritical and does not promote equality. Precious 'manners' still exist from this dated system which, sorry to say, are taking a long time to decay.
I don't really feel like explaining how chivalry fits into this, as it's pretty obvious.
Being polite and having good manners is essentially the same thing...
Or, maybe you were just attracted to her and cannot admit it to yourself.
... are you serious? Or is this just a stab because I hurt your feelings with my ideas.
futureperfect5
09-29-2007, 11:25 AM
I think I said that -- manners and politeness are the same thing -- chivalry is another thing separately.
You didn't hurt my feelings at all -- I know plenty of people who don't think politeness and manners are worth the trouble.
I like to treat people very well -- as politely as possible.
There must have been some reason that you took so much notice of this one time encounter.
Jezebel
09-29-2007, 11:33 AM
I also like it when people are polite, but in Guido's story, I think it was the lady being rude. A polite person does not walk past a stranger in public, expect them to perform a service they are perfectly capable of doing themselves without even bothering to ask the stranger to do it, then make a snide remark when the stranger doesn't comply.
New here, sorry if this is an intrusion -- most replies seem to agree with you.
Personally, I have no idea for the reason that equal pay and the right to vote as a citizen have anything to do with manners.
You were either raised with courtesy, politeness and manners or you valued them enough to learn yourself. *[Of course, you may be untrained and uninterested.]
Likewise, I for one am not sure if "convenience" comes into play -- especially if you mention Chivalry. *Chivalry was an extension of nobility: faith, charity, justice, sagacity, prudence, temperance, resolution, truth, liberality, diligence, hope, and valour.
:'( Politeness and manners could be completely separate.
Or, maybe you were just attracted to her and cannot admit it to yourself.
The whole point of this topic is that chivalry should be dead, not that manners/courtesy should be dead. *Hence, convenience DOES come into play. *For one to be 'courteous' beyond convenience is chivalry. *That is no longer something we agree with as women are no long 'inferior' we don't need people going out of their way to help us anymore. *And hence, women should now be equally chivalrous as men if anything; which becomes really inefficient, so we've dropped it all together. *However, it doesn't mean that one would not open the door if it was convenient or necessary to do so.
There must have been some reason that you took so much notice of this one time encounter.
Just because he posted about this one encounter, doesn't mean he wasn't annoyed by previous encounters. *It was simply a good time and a recent case to refer to.
Jezebel makes a good point...
EDIT: sp*
New here, sorry if this is an intrusion -- most replies seem to agree with you.
...
Or, maybe you were just attracted to her and cannot admit it to yourself.
I like to treat people very well -- as politely as possible.
By the way, no offence but it isn't very polite to assume things of people, and then accuse them of such assumptions is just a whole new dimension of rudeness.
Guido
09-29-2007, 02:09 PM
So you were serious...
There must have been some reason that you took so much notice of this one time encounter.
So that's it? That's the reason you said that one liner?
...
Here's some facts:
Having a perfect stranger be rude to you as described in my original post, is rational backing to take notice. Since this is inherently obvious, this negates your only expressed reason for making that one liner.
The one liner didn't pertain to anything you said in your post.
It doesn't relate to anything in my post. Whether the girl was butt ugly or a super model doesn't apply to my argument.
It doesn't have a thought out idea behind it.
It doesn't have a logical theory it could lead to.
You are opposed to what you think I've stated in this thread.
Look, I'm not retarded and I recognize a shot when I see one. You're a girl, you took offense, and you responded with something on a similar level to 'you're just jealous'. Not only is that one liner accusing me of not thinking through my ideas enough, it's saying that I am refusing to believe something for a reason that you've failed to mention that somehow relates to me finding this girl attractive, a reason that couldn't relate to my original post, and a reason which would lead to some line of thought I can't even begin to follow. These forums are for discussing ideas, not for throwing quibs at people when their ideas differ from your own.
In short, I really took offense to this. I take offense when my thought process has been belittled. I think most people in this forum would take offense if you accuse them of refusing to think through something for the sake of something emotional.
I think most people in this forum would take offense if you accuse them of refusing to think through something for the sake of something emotional.
Indeed... That is probably the single thing that can be said to offend INTJs.
There's supposed to be a general unspoken understanding across this forum that everyone throughly explores their ideas before presenting it. It is what INTJs do, and it is what makes this forum great for discussion. When assumption rears it's ugly head, it ruins this simple (and hard to come by, especially for INTJs) mutual respect.
Tarrick
09-29-2007, 03:38 PM
Okay, I think I've noticed the problem here: We have not defined terms. Here's my opinion on them:
Manners - Social rituals that are used to interact with others in a pre-determined manner.
Politeness - The "spirit" of how to "properly" interact with people.
Chivalry - "The sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms" A.K.A A code of how to interact with others, both in spirit and in ritual
Okay. Now we all know (at least I hope we hope we do) that INTJs have no patience for social rituals. However, we can be "polite" if we choose to. We, however, have no sense of obligation (garnered from manners) to be polite to those whom we feel do not deserve it.
Okay, I think I've noticed the problem here: We have not defined terms. Here's my opinion on them:
Manners - Social rituals that are used to interact with others in a pre-determined manner.
Politeness - The "spirit" of how to "properly" interact with people.
Chivalry - "The sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms" A.K.A A code of how to interact with others, both in spirit and in ritual
Okay. Now we all know (at least I hope we hope we do) that INTJs have no patience for social rituals. However, we can be "polite" if we choose to. We, however, have no sense of obligation (garnered from manners) to be polite to those whom we feel do not deserve it.
Hurrah for someone who can be articulate.
Tarrick
09-29-2007, 03:54 PM
300+ posts and I someone finally notices. /Sniff Thanks Rei.
Now, back to business:
Or, maybe you were just attracted to her and cannot admit it to yourself.
This was sort of already dealt with but, Futureperfect, I sincerely doubt that anyone on this forum deals in delusions. INTJs very rarely pretend to themselves.
300+ posts and I someone finally notices. /Sniff Thanks Rei.
Nah man! I was merely waiting for the best chance to say it ;)
This was sort of already dealt with but, Futureperfect, I sincerely doubt that anyone on this forum deals in delusions. INTJs very rarely pretend to themselves.
We wouldn't have that perfectionst problem if we did... I don't think we could settle with delusions even if we wanted to.
futureperfect5
09-29-2007, 06:58 PM
:-? Guido, I promise you (I didn't catch your comment the first time), I was not trying to insult you.
that was an honest statement -- people start relationships and get married over little incidents like these.
However, I agree with whoever, I think that there were several, about her behavior -- if it was important for her to have the door held, it should have been equally important for her to be polite to you, too. I like people to hold doors, etc. I do not "expect" it or judge if they don't -- unless I get hurt in the doorway or something.
Okay, enough ... I would like to discuss chivalry.
My first response would be -- IF we were in medieval times, a chivalry which responded to those times would be understandable. However, I firmly support the concept of living in the NOW -- working with the current environment.
I think that within these times, the 21 century, nobility is not something determined at birth -- it is a combination of:
Conscience
Perspective
Contribution
Likewise, chivalry in these times, for me at least, is very desirable ... the things that you mentioned:
Willingness to improve the social condition
Protection of those unable to protect themsleves
Devotion to something beyond self -- like friends, family, colleagues
Spreading a sense f hope instead of adding to despair
Being proactive
Being positive about life
Valour
Generosity
Something like that ... start a group, I would join -- for men and women, too
(as most chivalric codes involved knights and ladies).
However, jumping of a horse to charge off to the crusades --
it's over.
I like people who try to reach self-mastery through martial arts, fencing, etc.
as a combination of mental discipline and recreation these days.
It's a slight problem that INTJ's don't tend to be very good about sharing their energy and time. So I think the following will be rather ... unnatural to try to advocate.
Willingness to improve the social condition
Devotion to something beyond self -- like friends, family, colleagues
Spreading a sense f hope instead of adding to despair
Being proactive
Valour
Generosity
Though I must say because of my upbringing, I do try my best to do so... but not when I must go out of my way to.
Side note: The crusades were created by the king to keep the useless 2nd sons of noble out of trouble in his own country.
Side note 2: I fence and I've always wanted to do some other sort of martial arts. It's lotsa fun...
Tarrick
09-29-2007, 08:26 PM
Off topic replies have been moved to This Thread
OneBadMother
09-30-2007, 11:43 AM
Sorry to intrude into this, but... why do we even need nobility? :P As you said, FP, this is the 21st century. Conscience, perspective, and contribution never had anything to do with the reality of nobility back then, and has nothing to do with "chivalry" as defined in this thread either. "Chivalry", as I'm given to understand it in today's common context, is doing things for women that they're generally perfectly capable of doing themselves. If you're going to help someone with a box, you should help everyone who's struggling with a box. If they don't seem to be struggling, maybe just offer. Egalitarianism is pretty simple, and makes more sense, since you cannot assume that someone is physically weak just by merit of their sex.
Apococlock
09-30-2007, 12:26 PM
Sorry to intrude into this, but... why do we even need nobility? :P As you said, FP, this is the 21st century. Conscience, perspective, and contribution never had anything to do with the reality of nobility back then, and has nothing to do with "chivalry" as defined in this thread either. "Chivalry", as I'm given to understand it in today's common context, is doing things for women that they're generally perfectly capable of doing themselves. If you're going to help someone with a box, you should help everyone who's struggling with a box. If they don't seem to be struggling, maybe just offer. Egalitarianism is pretty simple, and makes more sense, since you cannot assume that someone is physically weak just by merit of their sex.
Well said, though studies have shown that women are typically physically weaker than men. I could probably tell you that based on any women I know... and I don't mean to say that to offend anyone.
I do agree with you, it doesn't seem right to play favorites based on sex. Whenever I'm out in public I'll hold the door open for practically anyone since it just seems to be the right thing to do. Why open and close a door twice if I can open it once and let a bunch of people through? It just seems like common sense to me.
I do agree with you, it doesn't seem right to play favorites based on sex. Whenever I'm out in public I'll hold the door open for practically anyone since it just seems to be the right thing to do. Why open and close a door twice if I can open it once and let a bunch of people through? It just seems like common sense to me.
Pretty much... It doesn't matter what gender the person walking through the door is. If you're opening hte door anyway, it's not much trouble to keep it open a second longer so the person wouldn't have to reach for and open the door again. It just makes sense. But if you're not even close to the door, you won't go to open a door because some lady is standing there in front of the door (incapable of opening her own door? :thinking:)
Anyways, this was a funny incident ;D
Frank
10-01-2007, 12:01 AM
I feel ya brotha.
I usually doff my hat and other typically chivalrous things because I believe in being kind. Though I am an INTJ I try to show my compassion even to complete strangers. If not then why should one be compassionate? However I have had my offer of a seat refused too many times, and I felt rejected because of it. I suppose if I tried to rap my logical head around it I would get angry but I must remember not many people think as I do.
blueback
10-06-2007, 01:28 PM
I didn't see anyone talking about this, so I thought I'd add it.
Chivalry makes sense, especially to women, because it is a test. Women want men who know how to interact with women. That might seem too obvious, but to a lot of people it isn't. There are a lot of guys who are so intimidated by women they are attracted to that they willingly become slaves to her every whim just so she'll stick around. There are also a few guys who are so mysogenistic that they treat women like dirt and tell them it's all they deserve.
So, women are looking for a guy in the middle. At least, well balanced women are. The chivalry situations are a good way to see what the guy is made of. If he leaps across the room to hold the door open for her and then can't make eye contact, he's a wuss. If he lets the door close behind and squishes her in it, he's a jerk. But, the test doesn't work if guys don't play along. So women put pressure on men to play the game so that they can gather the information they want.
Thoughts?
I didn't see anyone talking about this, so I thought I'd add it.
Chivalry makes sense, especially to women, because it is a test. *Women want men who know how to interact with women. *That might seem too obvious, but to a lot of people it isn't. *There are a lot of guys who are so intimidated by women they are attracted to that they willingly become slaves to her every whim just so she'll stick around. *There are also a few guys who are so mysogenistic that they treat women like dirt and tell them it's all they deserve. *
So, women are looking for a guy in the middle. *At least, well balanced women are. *The chivalry situations are a good way to see what the guy is made of. *If he leaps across the room to hold the door open for her and then can't make eye contact, he's a wuss. *If he lets the door close behind and squishes her in it, he's a jerk. *But, the test doesn't work if guys don't play along. *So women put pressure on men to play the game so that they can gather the information they want. *
Thoughts?
Quite true. But the problem comes down to whether the guy is interested in the woman in the first place. So I would still never expect a guy to be like that... mannerly, but not chivalrous. If he is, unless I'm interested, I'd probably start to freak out a bit. :scared:
OneBadMother
10-06-2007, 03:14 PM
Uhh... I myself wouldn't notice subtle little things like that, but that's just me. :P Maybe some women use it as some sort of absurd little test, though.
bikerscars
10-06-2007, 03:45 PM
if someone is near and i get to the door first i open and hold doors as a matter of politeness...
for women, families, children, and men
also if people have their hands full i'll go out of my way to open doors
no ulterior motives though
blueback
10-06-2007, 10:12 PM
Isn't it cool how even people who think almost exactly the same way can interpret the same situation differently? Like some of us will open doors if it's convenient, some if it's practical, some if it's Tuesday. I guess knowing someone's an INTJ isn't enough to really know them.
OneBadMother
10-06-2007, 10:53 PM
Well, of course not. They're still people, after all. :P
Isn't it cool how even people who think almost exactly the same way can interpret the same situation differently? *Like some of us will open doors if it's convenient, some if it's practical, some if it's Tuesday. *I guess knowing someone's an INTJ isn't enough to really know them.
Just the difference in strengths of expression of our traits are enough to make us all different. It'd be scary if all INTJ's were the same in every aspect.
celesul
10-07-2007, 03:03 PM
Women are liberated, like they should be. But still, is it so hard to open your own doors, kill your own bugs, and just be happy you can vote without signing up for the draft? *:thumbsup: (Of course I'm not suggesting all women are like this, but we all know that they do exist.)
But killing the bugs is cruel.. I pick them up and put them outside, but I'll let a spider stay anywhere but the bathroom. Though I am terrified of bees.
I don't expect any special treatment for being female, although more practical things apply, like help carrying heavy objects. This only applies to those of us who would drop the object on our toes though. My friends tend not to beleive in special treatment for girls anyway. It can be very funny though, because one of my guy friends is rather weak, and his sister usually helps him with luggage, which annoys him. ;D
But have you ever waited for someone to open a car door? I open it for my grandma, but I'd hate to have to wait. It takes forever.
Women are liberated, like they should be. But still, is it so hard to open your own doors, kill your own bugs, and just be happy you can vote without signing up for the draft? :thumbsup: (Of course I'm not suggesting all women are like this, but we all know that they do exist.)
But killing the bugs is cruel.. I pick them up and put them outside, but I'll let a spider stay anywhere but the bathroom. Though I am terrified of bees.
I don't expect any special treatment for being female, although more practical things apply, like help carrying heavy objects. This only applies to those of us who would drop the object on our toes though. My friends tend not to beleive in special treatment for girls anyway. It can be very funny though, because one of my guy friends is rather weak, and his sister usually helps him with luggage, which annoys him. ;D
But have you ever waited for someone to open a car door? I open it for my grandma, but I'd hate to have to wait. It takes forever.
Once... I think I had a legit. reason though. It was after my grad formal; I was still in my dress, and it was raining... I had to wait for my friend to bring his car around and come up with an umbrella... :-/
blueback
10-08-2007, 04:21 PM
But have you ever waited for someone to open a car door? I open it for my grandma, but I'd hate to have to wait. It takes forever.
Ah, the INTJ mantra: "Does it work?" I have to remind myself regularly that it would be a bad thing if everyone in the world thought that way.
fixed broken quote tags
bikerscars
10-08-2007, 05:06 PM
Ah, the INTJ mantra: "Does it work?" I have to remind myself regularly that it would be a bad thing if everyone in the world thought that way.
fixed broken quote tags
why would it be bad...
i think reacting to feelings have as many negative outcomes as positive
Nomad
11-03-2007, 08:27 PM
OK, I've found that, by and large, a little chivalry goes a long way, especially when done with aplomb. it might just be that social grease which accomplishes your objective. In some cultures, especially with cultures associated with the Romantic languages, chivalry goes a long way. In any event, it costs little and may pay much. In the exceptions, let me tell you about my father.
In the seventies in the US, when I was but a pup, and womens lib raged, my father held the door for a women at a Modells store. She laid into him with every feminist doxology she could muster for nearly five minutes, and at the end, asked him if he had anything to say for himself. My father, with perfect calm, said, (and I'll never forget it) "I didn't open the door for you because you're a lady, I opened the door because I'm a gentleman."
I learned two very valuable lessons.
1: Equanimity in the face of provocation lends you authority.
2: it costs little to be nice and polite, and lends you moral authority.
-Nomad
Solaris
11-03-2007, 08:37 PM
Give women a hand up/down steps or through rough terrain if she's been forced to wear high heels for an occasion.
Seems fair doesn't it? *Men are never forced to wear high heels
Yeah, I'd like to see someone try to force me to wear high heels. Maybe my man could help me out by kicking their ass?
HAhahahahaha!
I'd be more likely to use the shoe as a weapon than wear it. I have enough trouble with my favorite footwear: sandals. The other day, I managed to trip on a shiny, *flat* store floor. Thank you great reflexes, I don't fall, I just trip a lot because I'm not paying attention.
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