alcohol: making socializing tolerable?

[aelan]

I rarely drink. *I've never had any real desire to do so- it doesn't taste good, it's unhealthy, it was a social thing and I wasn't social- I just never saw the point. *But I did it the other night while hanging out with my housemates, and though it was fun but not that great of an experience, it allowed me to be social, and it allowed me to show sides of myself that I usually don't show.

I find that I'm conflicted on this issue. *One part of me says that drinking is still pointless- if I can't be social without being drunk, maybe I don't really want to be with people; maybe I'm not supposed to be. *And isn't that being somewhat dishonest- hanging out with ppl because your drunk when you really wouldn't be able to put up with them in a normal state of mind? (that sounds way harsher than I meant it to- it's not always that bad, just awkward, and sort of pointless) *But then the other side of me actually sees how alcohol can be useful. *Maybe everyone else is actually on to something? *Maybe they're all anti-social too, but they have alcohol to help them out. *Maybe it wouldn't be seen as a weakness if I needed alcohol to have friends, so I should just get over it and start acting more like everyone else..

I know I'm overthinking this and being too hard on myself (I'm sure someone here can relate to this 'striving for perfection of self'), but I don't really know what to think about this anymore. *Can anyone else relate? *Does anyone here use alcohol to be social, whereas without it that just wouldn't happen?

[Firelie]

Yeah, sure. People don't usually like me until they get to know me, and having a drink or two pulls me over the nervous awkward phase, thereby skipping the equivalent of the first few weeks of getting to know me.

[Rohsiph]

Dependent on your values: for myself, one of my foundational values is integrity--and, primarily, retaining as much control as possible of my natural mental condition at all times. To ingest substances which could even potentially usurp my conscious mental processes would infringe on my integrity in an unacceptable way.

Hence, I've never been drunk, nor have I used unprescribed narcotics (with a possible exception of Ny-Quil three or four times, depending on how far one extends a definition of narcotics).

My understanding is that most people tend to value the social "edge" being inebriated seems to give them above mental integrity--if they ever even consider a concept like "mental integrity" in the first place.

[K1creeker]

I never drank until I was 27 or so. I'm 34 now. I don't feel at all uneasy in social eviorments, but I tend to stand there and take in all the info of other people talking about and there body laugage of the whole room and look like a serial killer :). So now I drink a before I get in that eviorment and try to talk to one person at a time, I try not to get distacted by everyone elses conversations, which is hard becuase I might be talking to a boring or non interesting person.

K1

[tubaglue]

I didn't drink until I went to college and I didn't embrace it at first. After a while I noticed that when I was drinking I analyzed every situation a lot less, which I found incredibly helpful. After several years of drinking I realized that I just like to drink a little bit in social situations to grease the social wheels.

[L30]

At important events sometimes I try to be already half drunk when I arrive. Like in the first few weeks of my current relationship, I always carried beer in my car and drank just before meeting with her (it made wonders).
In most cases I'm sober at the start but I try to get to the beer|wine ASAP.
Alcohol is the only thing which really makes socializing worth something for me, it's the only way I can have fun like an E, and it's very good.
Too bad my stupid country is slowly drifring toward prohibitionism.

[rwyatt365]

I used to drink because everyone else did. It was part of the "trying to fit in" phase that I went through as a young adult feeling pressure from outside forces to conform. At the time, I knew that I was different from most people but I didn't have the tools (MBTI, etc…) to evaluate what I was experiencing.

I found that alcohol tended to make me feel more isolated because I became more focused on dissecting how other people were socializing, and none on my own interactions with the group. In effect my "fly on the wall" mode became heightened and I became less a participant in the social activities.

Alcohol has been used as a "social lubricant" for millennia, so an argument can be made for it being useful. If someone needs it to lower their inhibitions (to social engagement, sex, or whatever), then that is a choice that they have made. That, to me, seems to be relying on a crutch and has no long-term benefits. If one wants to get better at socializing then resolve to practice "the game" and overcome(?) your natural tendencies.

[logan235711]

Alcohol has been used as a "social lubricant" for millennia, so an argument can be made for it being useful. If someone needs it to lower their inhibitions (to social engagement, sex, or whatever), then that is a choice that they have made. That, to me, seems to be relying on a crutch and has no long-term benefits. If one wants to get better at socializing then resolve to practice "the game" and overcome(?) your natural tendencies.
exactly, don't rely on some method that doesn't get you any long-term benefits; suck it up and make those changes yourself. you can use it [alcohol] and about anything else as a bridge into other areas of exploration but you'll never get very far unless you rely on yourself in the end. there is no miracle drug or quick fix

[tubaglue]

I agree with the others. Use it as a bridge to better understanding. Like I said it allows me to just interact in the moment and reflect on the situations later, see what I've learned, etc. You do run into a problem if that is the only way you can interact because then you've got an alcohol problem. But, from my perspective as a musician, if you can slow the situation down, see how it works, and recreate it to some degree you stand a good chance of figuring it out. Or maybe seeing some other connection. Be cautious, but don't be afraid to experiment and learn.

[rwyatt365]

I agree with the others. Use it as a bridge to better understanding. Like I said it allows me to just interact in the moment and reflect on the situations later, see what I've learned, etc. You do run into a problem if that is the only way you can interact because then you've got an alcohol problem. But, from my perspective as a musician, if you can slow the situation down, see how it works, and recreate it to some degree you stand a good chance of figuring it out. Or maybe seeing some other connection. Be cautious, but don't be afraid to experiment and learn.
BTW - don't think that I'm "anti-alcohol". I still drink (mostly wine) and I do that for the added dimension it gives to foods. It's been a long time since I've relied on alcohol for "courage".

Tubaglue; I agree, caution and control are key. Dowhatchalike, but don't go overboard.

[thegnat]

From my observations (as I don't drink cause my meds say "don't take with alcohol"):

Personally I think that alcohol used in moderation *can* be OK. My aunts aren't heavy drinkers and they're fine.

However, the kind you find most often at colleges, where it's pretty much all or nothing - is really bad IMO. People do stupid things then regret it the next morning when they realize what they did. Actually 2 people have died here from alcohol related deaths here. Plus people are *So Not Themselves* it's like they're someone completely different. So if you're using it to let yourself open up, you're probably appearing not yourself and they can have mis-guided opinions about you.

Then there's just heavy drinking. My uncle drank so much it caused him liver problems which he eventually died from...

[INTJoe]

I don't drink often, but when I do, I almost always go overboard. The thing is, I drink a lot of liquid as it is. I almost always have a water or Diet Coke or Coke Zero with me for some reason. My entire family drinks a lot of liquid. So when I go out and have some drinks, I'll start to get the buzz going and then probably finish off a beer like every 10 minutes. And when I do that, I'll get 3 or 4 more in me before it hits me and I'm drunk at that point. lol.

Drinking does do wonders for me when I go out, but I wouldn't say I actively drink just to feel extroverted. I think I drink for whatever reason everyone does. Even extroverts like drinking when they go out. But the "benefit" is that I can really work a room when I'm feeling good. People would definitely think I'm an E, and I suddenly become quite charming and engaging with almost anyone. I'm a happy drunk, not an "angry" drunk. My girlfriend literally gets worried when I drink too much because she says I'll come on to women without intending to. That I just engage them and "flirt" without knowing it or trying. lol. So I try to actively cut back on that when I do get hammered.

Someone earlier in this thread who was an INTP mentioned that they try to show up half-drunk. I never do that, but my good friend is INTP and he seems to do this. He'll bring a flask in his car, or even stop to buy a 6 pack and put it in a cooler he keeps in his car. This is obviously a problem and I yell at him when he does this but I'd say he definitely uses alcohol as a crutch moreso than I do. His I may be way higher than mine though, mine is "only" 56. Not sure if it's an INTP thing, or just an extreme I thing.

[blackout]

I HAVE to have booze in most "going out" social situations. It enables me to stomach listening to idiots talk without being annoyed.

[GOD]

All as I'll say is....

*beer goggles*

Things that you'd normally be :scared: of suddenly appear in a whole new light :-*


;D

[lebowski]

Alcohol is a great social lubricant. I realized I was meeting and socializing with people that really did not interest me; you're not going to meet many INTJs at the bar! With that being said I haven't had a drink since August 2 (but I have not "quit" drinking).

Also, I think alcohol goes against our nature as INTJs. I love to be in controls, I like things to be definite. Alcohol definitely can change that equation.

I rarely drink. *I've never had any real desire to do so- it doesn't taste good, it's unhealthy, it was a social thing and I wasn't social- I just never saw the point. *But I did it the other night while hanging out with my housemates, and though it was fun but not that great of an experience, it allowed me to be social, and it allowed me to show sides of myself that I usually don't show.

I find that I'm conflicted on this issue. *One part of me says that drinking is still pointless- if I can't be social without being drunk, maybe I don't really want to be with people; maybe I'm not supposed to be. *And isn't that being somewhat dishonest- hanging out with ppl because your drunk when you really wouldn't be able to put up with them in a normal state of mind? (that sounds way harsher than I meant it to- it's not always that bad, just awkward, and sort of pointless) *But then the other side of me actually sees how alcohol can be useful. *Maybe everyone else is actually on to something? *Maybe they're all anti-social too, but they have alcohol to help them out. *Maybe it wouldn't be seen as a weakness if I needed alcohol to have friends, so I should just get over it and start acting more like everyone else..

I know I'm overthinking this and being too hard on myself (I'm sure someone here can relate to this 'striving for perfection of self'), but I don't really know what to think about this anymore. *Can anyone else relate? *Does anyone here use alcohol to be social, whereas without it that just wouldn't happen?

[lebowski]

Very true, you lose control of the environment. In college I used to drink socially. Now that I'm out of college, I tend to drink in the confines of my home (aka drinking alone) to alleviate some stress and let my mind go for awhile. However, as mentioned in my previous post, I haven't had a drink for quite awhile.

Dependent on your values: for myself, one of my foundational values is integrity--and, primarily, retaining as much control as possible of my natural mental condition at all times. To ingest substances which could even potentially usurp my conscious mental processes would infringe on my integrity in an unacceptable way.

Hence, I've never been drunk, nor have I used unprescribed narcotics (with a possible exception of Ny-Quil three or four times, depending on how far one extends a definition of narcotics).

My understanding is that most people tend to value the social "edge" being inebriated seems to give them above mental integrity--if they ever even consider a concept like "mental integrity" in the first place.

[Tarrick]

I don't drink. One, it's expensive. Two, if I were to loose that much more self-control, I would speak my mind. Loudly. I'm sure of it.

And that, my compatriots, would be too much for most social situations.

[Paul V]

I don't drink. One, it's expensive. Two, if I were to loose that much more self-control, I would speak my mind. Loudly. I'm sure of it.

And that, my compatriots, would be too much for most social situations.

I have to agree completely. No loss of control for me, thank you very much.

[rocksteady]

I don't drink often, but when I do, I almost always go overboard. The thing is, I drink a lot of liquid as it is. I almost always have a water or Diet Coke or Coke Zero with me for some reason. My entire family drinks a lot of liquid. So when I go out and have some drinks, I'll start to get the buzz going and then probably finish off a beer like every 10 minutes. And when I do that, I'll get 3 or 4 more in me before it hits me and I'm drunk at that point. lol.

Drinking does do wonders for me when I go out, but I wouldn't say I actively drink just to feel extroverted. I think I drink for whatever reason everyone does. Even extroverts like drinking when they go out. But the "benefit" is that I can really work a room when I'm feeling good. People would definitely think I'm an E, and I suddenly become quite charming and engaging with almost anyone. I'm a happy drunk, not an "angry" drunk. My girlfriend literally gets worried when I drink too much because she says I'll come on to women without intending to. That I just engage them and "flirt" without knowing it or trying. lol. So I try to actively cut back on that when I do get hammered.

Someone earlier in this thread who was an INTP mentioned that they try to show up half-drunk. I never do that, but my good friend is INTP and he seems to do this. He'll bring a flask in his car, or even stop to buy a 6 pack and put it in a cooler he keeps in his car. This is obviously a problem and I yell at him when he does this but I'd say he definitely uses alcohol as a crutch moreso than I do. His I may be way higher than mine though, mine is "only" 56. Not sure if it's an INTP thing, or just an extreme I thing.

This is pretty much what I do as well.

Also, to the people that are advocating personal development as opposed to a quick fix, i say this: When you start actively develop your auxiliary functions, the dominant functions will stop developing, possibly negating many of the subjective advantages of being an INTJ, IMHO

[Rohsiph]

Also, to the people that are advocating personal development as opposed to a quick fix, i say this: When you start actively develop your auxiliary functions, the dominant functions will stop developing, possibly negating many of the subjective advantages of being an INTJ, IMHO

Could you point us to your sources?

[Lucid]

I don't drink often, but when I do, I almost always go overboard. The thing is, I drink a lot of liquid as it is. I almost always have a water or Diet Coke or Coke Zero with me for some reason. My entire family drinks a lot of liquid. So when I go out and have some drinks, I'll start to get the buzz going and then probably finish off a beer like every 10 minutes. And when I do that, I'll get 3 or 4 more in me before it hits me and I'm drunk at that point. lol.

Me too, actually. Also, I really like beer and wine for the taste, so I drink it like it tastes good.... because it does! :p

When I was much younger (in high school and shortly after) I would frequently get so drunk I'd pass out or throw up. I did this mostly because I went through a period of needing to be a hellion and a rebel and all that. But it passed rather quickly.

I also don't like being so drunk that I lose control. I think people who are so drunk that they are slurring their words and saying stupid things to random strangers and falling all over themselves are disgusting.

That being said, I enjoy being slightly toasted. Drunk enough to feel more at ease with socializing, but not so drunk that I'm out of control. I find that I reach this state after about 3 beers or 2 glasses of wine. I only drink hard alcohol on special occasions. (Well, occasionally I'll have a vodka tonic at a club or something)

I've noticed that I have some friends who I really have a lot more fun with if we're drinking (usually F types). I went through a similar internal debate that Aelan described about the worthiness of hanging out with these people. I concluded that the reason I enjoyed them more when I was drinking was because it made me less nervous and socially awkward with them (which I've noticed happens a lot around people of very contrasting types) so I was able to just be myself and have a good time.

Therefore, both their friendships and the alcohol were valid, in my opinion.

[rocksteady]

Could you point us to your sources?
sorry, I'm new to this stuff, i may have jumped the gun! that was mostly speculation based on me personally lacking desire to develop the unused parts of my personality.

[Rohsiph]

sorry, I'm new to this stuff, i may have jumped the gun! that was mostly speculation based on me personally lacking desire to develop the unused parts of my personality.

Ah! :) Well, I appreciate the honesty. It would have been interesting if you could have pointed us to convincing conjecture. Disturbing in some ways, but interesting nonetheless.

[Bossy Mom]

It doesn't make socializing more tolerable. It just makes the next day embarassing and regretful. I have been sober for over 21 years and I can remember a party my husband and I gave. I didn't want to have a party, but he insisted. I drank a lot during the party to try to make myself more sociable and make the entire experience more tolerable, but I only embarassed myself by talking about things I shouldn't have talked about and did it loudly. It may be trite but it is true that when you drink you let a thief in your mouth to steal your brain.

[Lucid]

It doesn't make socializing more tolerable. It just makes the next day embarassing and regretful. I have been sober for over 21 years and I can remember a party my husband and I gave. I didn't want to have a party, but he insisted. I drank a lot during the party to try to make myself more sociable and make the entire experience more tolerable, but I only embarassed myself by talking about things I shouldn't have talked about and did it loudly. It may be trite but it is true that when you drink you let a thief in your mouth to steal your brain.

It may be true for you. Don't make assumptions about the rest of us.

Thanks ;D

[Bossy Mom]

I am sorry that you thought I was making an assumption for others. I go to functions where people drink and it doesn't matter to me - I just stick to the bottled water. What other people drink is not my concern as long as they are not driving while intoxicated.

Last month I was excused from jury duty once because it was a drunk driving charge. When the judge asked the following question to the jury during selection, "Has any jury member here had his or her life effected by someone close to them with a drinking problem?", I had to raise my hand. I told her my husband drank all during our marriage and in spite of his being in treatment several times and even being committed twice, he would not stop drinking. We faced foreclosure and he wasn't with me during our daughter's two liver transplants. I told the judge that I could be impartial during the trial if my experience had only been my drinking, but with my husband's deleterious effect on my life and my daughter's I could not be impartial.

Many people can drink and be socially responsible. There are also many people like me whose family members have really been harmed by alcoholism. Many people may think I'm being melodramatic, but I have only written the truth.