Berserk (manga/anime)

[umop_3pisdn]

I know there was an anime thread... but if Death Note deserves it's own thread, then so does Kentaro Miura's fantasy/horror masterpiece. Death Note is awesome, but as far as literary storytelling and character development goes, it has nothing on Berserk, IMO.

I mean, seriously, is the Guts-Griffith-Caska triangle not one of the most awesome character dynamics you've ever seen?! And the villain... man! So despicable, and yet so entirely flawed and human. The protagonist/villain relationship is one of the deepest and most compelling I've ever seen. As far as the manga as a whole goes, Miura strikes me as somewhat of a literary genius. Seemingly every event in the plot has been exploited for maximum poignancy. I have to give him credit for being able to plan out one pretty amazing story. He hasn't disappointed me yet. Basically every decision he's made, storytelling wise, seems to make some sense when put under scrutiny. And it's still an ongoing project (since 1988!), so I can only speculate as to how it will all end.

I'm kind of wary of discussing the plot, though. Most people seem to have only seen the anime (which is nothing more than a commercial for the manga,) so I'm not sure what's safe and what's not so safe to talk about. Really, I just think Berserk deserves more recognition. Sure it can be full of ridiculous amounts of gore and demon rape, but IMO that's just an adequate way of expressing the hopelessness and horror intrinsic to the Berserk universe.

[Americano]

Berserk is one of my favorite anime. The ending though.......

What the hell.

I know it continues in the manga, so I'll have to start reading that sometime.

[Jgib5328]

The Manga is incredible and addicting, I hate how I've caught up with the Manga and now there is no more new ones for awhile. But yeah this is by far one of my favorites, it is so deep, I love the Griffith/Guts relationship.

[Thrifty]

Is this topic still alive? I'm really interested in it, in fact, I've joined the forum for the sole purpose of discussing Berserk characters(err... hello all, etc xD).

[Danisty]

I've seen the anime and read some of the manga. I think it's a great story. I love Griffith.

Btw, has anyone else seen the anime outtakes? They're hilarious.

[Thrifty]

Hmmm.... well, let's see if we can resurrect this thread:

First of all, I have to say this is my favorite anime of all time, and one of the best stories I have come across in my life. I've read the manga as well up to volume 26 I think(but waiting for the new chapter each month was tedious so I gave up. I'll catch up someday) and I have to say that even though manga has content to span a 200+ episode anime series, the original anime is what I consider the true masterpiece, even with that ending which I find unique and unbelievably awesome.

As for the character types... the deal is that the main characters are SO good that it is extremely hard to pigeonhole them. They're like real people, with multiple layers and dimensions, and MBTI doesn't seem too apt to categorize them. But anyway... I think Caska is ESTJ (although her real personality is more of ISFJ with borderline S), Guts is ESTP(but he is borderline all except T) and Griffith... Griffith gets his own paragraph :P.


One of the best characters ever. His charisma, shrewdness and sense of strategy are top notch. He is clearly I and N , but I have trouble deciding the other two. Although he has very strong ethics, at the same time he's completely unemotional and ruthless in the pursuit of his dream, especially when someone gets on his way. What type would you people here say he is?



Yeah the anime outtakes were very funny xD, I haven't watched them all though. Here's a link if anybody doesn't know about them To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Btw, I recommend this AMV (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) , it pictures Griffith's and Guts' "relationship" very well.

[Nahput]

I prefer the manga a lot more than the anime, the ending was..

[umop_3pisdn]

The anime outtakes were quite good. I wasn't expecting something like that to be any good, but I was surprised.

I agree the manga is better, IMO. It's the more complete version. Miura's storytelling/artistic genius shines through more clearly in everything that he's produced by hand. Yes, the anime was good, but it misses many important aspects, and also many of the finer touches that make Berserk awesome, IMO. Also, the quality of the art in the current volumes far surpasses anything in the anime. Miura's hand drawn art is fucking amazing, where as the anime is beginning to show it's age, IMO. To be honest, I'd rather see it re-adapted in OAV form, if anything. That way nearly all of the manga content could be included (including added gore not able to make it into the anime due to censorship/regulations.)

Basically, a serial movie format could be a nice move, completely redo the Golden age arc (the anime), and everything after it, after the manga is finished. The anime left out a lot of important bits, and I'm sure when all is said and done, and Berserk is complete, it'll be easier to produce a better anime adaption.

But that's a long, long ways off...


One of the best characters ever. His charisma, shrewdness and sense of strategy are top notch. He is clearly I and N , but I have trouble deciding the other two. Although he has very strong ethics, at the same time he's completely unemotional and ruthless in the pursuit of his dream, especially when someone gets on his way. What type would you people here say he is?


Griffith isn't emotionless at all. That's one of the major points of his character, to deny that is to deny the significance of the eclipse and the decision that he makes. He doesn't make the sacrifice as a casual, calculated expense on his path to the throne. He does it because, emotionally, he cannot make any other choice. His charisma is little more than an ingenious facade... essentially a mask Griffith chooses to wear in order to suit his purposes. Like wise, his logical outlook, and the denial of his feelings match quite well with this mask of charisma and leadership. Griffith lives according to his dream, and those are some of the most important tools he has to achieve his dream.

In order to be King, especially a common-born King, Griffith has to project an aura of being better or above others. Everything he allows his subordinates or human stepping-stones (ie: Nobles, Princess Charlotte) to see, is just a useful mask. It's better for him that they be wowed by his awesomeness, than personally know any of his weaknesses or faults. That runs contrary to getting people to recognize him as their ruler. If he wants to present himself as something a little bit better/bigger than a normal human, then he isn't allowed to be a normal person.

Without his pride or livelihood (ie: the ability to pursue his dream) he is resigned to sub-normalcy. But the thing that makes Griffith teeter over the edge? That he would lose not only his dream to be king, but also his closest companions (Guts, Caska), or worse, be pitied by them as merely a shadow of his former glory! Griffith long knows it's all over for him. Spending a year being creatively tortured in a dungeon by some deformed creep will do that to a person. At that point, Griffith was alright. It was when Caska started telling Guts to not feel responsible for Griffith and pursue his own dream (leaving Griffith behind) and leaving Caska to take care of and pity her former god/idol/hero.

Griffith can't stand to live like that. It's not just losing his dream that causes him to sacrifice his friends, it's that he feels he can't even look them in the eye anymore. He's just some pitiful thing to be looked after, and constantly reminisced over how awesome and amazing he used to be, but no longer. I think that could crush anyone. That's why it's so tragic. Griffith's former greatness makes his fall from grace so painful. He'd rather give up the last meaningful thing to him (his friends) in order to be reborn as a different person, because it's really the only decision he feel he can make. It's contradictory and stupid, but he sacrifices the Hawks primarily because he loves them or felt something for them, and now can no longer stand that bond or friendship because it pains him so much to accept their pity.

Especially Guts. Guts was inarguably the most important person in Griffith's life, and Griffith himself said, many times, how Guts was able to make him forget his dream. Does this sound like an emotionless person? This is also an important point. Previously, Griffith had nothing but his dream. It was his destiny ...and as far as how fate works in Berserk, he's actually right, it's what was intended to come out of his life (being reborn as a Godhand). It's almost like an implicit understanding that he's meant for big things. However, Guts had a way of making all that not matter. Really, it's a good recipe for the whole love/hate, affection/misplaced blame type thing. Griffith, in a way, hated Guts because Guts had power over him.

I mean, look at *right before* Griffith makes his final decision. Guts is running towards him and calling out to him, and literally *just then* Griffith decides. It's like the one caused the other. Griffith can no longer stand the sight of Guts, because Griffith feels too much admiration for him, that he can't stand to accept or recognize his current state (as an invalid) because of it. Guts running face him isn't something Griffith can handle at that moment. He panics, but somehow is assured of his decision. To accept Gut's admiration, Griffith has to feel he is a being worthy of respect (in Griffith's world view). It's really the only path he could take. There's no other decision Griffith could have made. Everything was manipulated from the very beginning... his emotions were what drove him to forsake his humanity.

Griffith is deeply aware of the emotional states of others, but pitifully unaware of his own emotions. He has fairly deep emotions, however he refuses or is unable to recognize them. Basically, what it amounts to, is Griffith as a surprisingly believable and humanly flawed character. Everything about him is essentially at odds with his emotions. His dream calls for it, since the throne is essentially the same thing as aiming for the highest status any human can achieve. Naturally, it's lonely at the top, and it requires some undesirable methods to get there. So he began to deaden himself to these feelings, until Guts came around and 'woke him up' to something other than his dream. His dream can be seen as, perhaps, Griffith's desire to prove or actualize his importance or worthiness.

A good point of reference is when Griffith sold himself to Gennon to secure funding for his army. It's perfectly logical, an army needs funds, and money isn't free... Yet afterwards, he feels dirty, no matter the logic behind it... he's definitely not as unreachable or cold as he wishes he was. People generally have emotions, and Griffith is definitely included. He actually has quite powerful emotions. He simply doesn't deal with his emotions in the best way, but they're definately there, and have a huge influence on his character. At least, Griffith as a human. The Griffith afterwards is a completely different matter. While still the same person, he is essentially as cold as he used to wish he could be... devoid of all morality or emotion, and free to pursue his dream, no matter the obstacle.

Griffith merely wishes he was without emotion. That would be perfect for what he's specified as his goal. However, a person can't just live for a dream. We're all human, even Griffith is. That's why he cracked, and slept with Princess Charlotte long before it was a good idea to do so. It was to assert his power, so he could feel competent and in-control again. Essentially to appease the gaping hole in his soul after Guts left to pursue his own destiny.

As far as types for Griffith, seriously, I have no clue. I honestly kind of think INTJ, though, because to me he seems more conceptual or philosophical than he does logic or knowledge based. For instance, his belief in his "higher purpose", and he seems like something of an idealist. INTJ's also tend to be more idealistic than INTP's. And I'd say it's most likely Griffith is INTx. Maybe ENTx, but I think it's less likely. I'd say it's fairly certain he's a rational of some sort, but that's kind of stating the obvious.

[Thrifty]

Wow, I wasn't expecting to find someone so learned and with such an awareness of the intricacies of Berserk. To be honest, I was expecting more of a "Griffith is a completely ruthless and emotionless..." type of response, because some time ago I got into a debate with a "pure INTJ" (in his own words) and he stubbornly insisted in denying Griffith's more 'humane' side. Matter of fact is, that I agree so much with your take (I used many of the ideas you've exposed here in my exchange with him), that I don't really have much to say. But anyway, I'll comment on a few things:


There's no other decision Griffith could have made. Everything was manipulated from the very beginning... his emotions were what drove him to forsake his humanity.

Exactly. To deny the extent of Griffith's feelings for his comrades is to deny the supreme plot of Berserk itself. He uses his comrades to fulfill his ends? Yes, but he cares about them, think about when he is devastated after seeing that child who ended up dead because he wanted to imitate him, or the fact that he has to prostitute himself to minimize his losses. Or his face when he is told by the nobles that he can't go personally looking for Guts and Caska (when they fall off the cliff). All was a trap set by Fate, so that he had to sacrifice everything at the end, and become a Godhand. It's all connected.

Griffith's former greatness makes his fall from grace so painful. He'd rather give up the last meaningful thing to him (his friends) in order to be reborn as a different person, because it's really the only decision he feel he can make. It's contradictory and stupid, but he sacrifices the Hawks primarily because he loves them or felt something for them, and now can no longer stand that bond or friendship because it pains him so much to accept their pity.

Guts was inarguably the most important person in Griffith's life, and Griffith himself said, many times, how Guts was able to make him forget his dream

Griffith can no longer stand the sight of Guts, because Griffith feels too much admiration for him, that he can't stand to accept or recognize his current state (as an invalid) because of it.

In your opinion, did he fall in love with Guts? Genuine love of the "I place your needs ahead of mine", "I want you to look up to me" type (he placed his life on the line for him several times...)?


Griffith, in a way, hated Guts because Guts had power over him.

Spot on. Love-hate thing. The kind you only understand when you've been there.


Everything about him is essentially at odds with his emotions. His dream calls for it, since the throne is essentially the same thing as aiming for the highest status any human can achieve. Naturally, it's lonely at the top, and it requires some undesirable methods to get there. So he began to deaden himself to these feelings, until Guts came around and 'woke him up' to something other than his dream. His dream can be seen as, perhaps, Griffith's desire to prove or actualize his importance or worthiness.

So, is his 'dream' is born out of narcissism? He only cares about proving his worthiness? Is that it?


The incident of Guts leaving the Band of the Hawk was also such a hammer on Griffith because he was completely oblivious, he though Guts was his 'dog' still, just like Caska. "The degree of one's emotions varies inversely with one's knowledge of the facts"-- This saying comes to mind.


I have a few other questions I would be very grateful you answered, seeing your mastery of the subject:

Is Griffith's high moral character part of his mask? Example: When Guts if forced to kill that kid in his assasination. When griffith finds out... that sly smile... he didn't care at all about the death of an innocent kid (he seemed to be thinking more like; "heh, two birds with one stone")? Is he really *that* ethical?

Why didn't he kill the minister off after he had already used him to get rid of the Queen?

How do you think Berserk will end? Will Guts kill Griffith and 'save the day'?

What do you think of his 'revenge' at the end of the Anime? Or do you think it wasn't a revenge?


Concerning turning the entirety of the manga into anime or OVA upon its completion: I don't think that is such a good idea. Most of the stuff done today lacks sentiment... it lacks 'magic'. The only way I see it coming close to the original is by getting as many people of the original project involved as possible (director, screenwriter, animators, etc), and still it's risky. I'm not saying otherwise it is going to suck per se, but I highly doubt it will be as successful. I'm convinced the original Berserk anime will always be the masterpiece for me. But this is my own and subjective humble opinion, most likely influenced by nostalgia. You see, what I have for berserk is genuine passion.


Ah yeah, I'm now convinced that he is INTJ, although he seems to have that unusual ability or "trait" of being able to inspire an army of followers. Ability that we have witnessed present in many NFs throughout history, especially INFJs (Jesus Christ, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr, etc). I mean, look at him, he is almost mystical in his appearance and demeanor. I can't determine if he uses Te or Ti though, as that detail would shift the balance to either INTJ of INFJ.

Griffith is deeply aware of the emotional states of others, but pitifully unaware of his own emotions. He has fairly deep emotions, however he refuses or is unable to recognize them.

Sounds like a very INTJ thing... :(

[umop_3pisdn]

In your opinion, did he fall in love with Guts? Genuine love of the "I place your needs ahead of mine", "I want you to look up to me" type (he placed his life on the line for him several times...)?


I'm not exactly eager to classify it, because then I might have people jumping down my throat, saying I made implications I didn't make.

I do think that Guts made Griffith feel the closest thing to love that Griffith had ever felt. A lot of it is obviously inspired through their mutual respect for each other. In a sense, they are equals, despite being different. They also sort of represent varying life paths. Guts is content with a simpler dream. In a way, that's admirable. It makes more sense to be content with less. Those who set their sights on certain goals have a way of missing the important things along the way.

Also, in typical storytelling fashion, those who reach for the stars can also be prone to epic failure (implication for how I think Berserk will end, which I'll talk about more later.) Griffith essentially bases his worth on the grandiosity of his dream. Guts is something else. Guts doesn't necessarily care about Griffith's dream like his other subordinates do. He's really just sort of along for the ride. The things he does for Griffith are generally out of friendship or respect, not because he particularly cares about Griffith's dream. In that way, he's unlike Caska, who is more of a "hero worshiper" to Griffith than an equal.

Guts is essentially someone who he can trust and respect more than any of his other subordinates. I'm not saying Griffith felt sexual towards Guts, but I don't think it's entirely impossible. There is some sort of reciprocal affection there. Again, not saying it's sexual, but they're certainly caring of one another. This especially comes through in the chapters following Griffith's escape from the Tower of Rebirth. The chapter titled "Breastplate", specifically. They share so many looks, and even though the reunion is so sad, it's still how heartwarming how caring they seem for each other.

Even during the eclipse, before the demon feast/blood-orgy, Guts choses to rush to Griffith's side, instead of Caska's, who is his lover/the mother of his child. Guts already knows the terms of the sacrifice. In terms of situation, Caska was in pretty close proximity to some monsters, while Griffith was relatively protected and even somewhat coddled.

At that time, Guts felt like he needed to be with Griffith. Guts being near Griffith in that time something Griffith couldn't stand. Really, when you look at it like this, I don't know what else to call it but "love". It's really tragic, but I don't know what else to call it.

To me, I think it's clear they're quite wrapped around each other, in some way. Think of Guts vowing vengeance afterwards. It isn't just because of the bad things Griffith did to hurt Guts (raping Caska) it's because Guts felt so strongly about Griffith that all he can do is turn his feelings of betrayal into hatred and (imo righteous) vindication.


So, is his 'dream' is born out of narcissism? He only cares about proving his worthiness? Is that it?


I don't think it's narcissism. I think it's something else. It's not like he's certain of his superiority, he has natural human doubt about his perceived purpose. I think it's as much to prove to himself that he can make a significant difference in the world, or something.

When a person has an inkling that they're intended for some deeper purpose, it can become something difficult to stray from. It can encompass many things about us as individuals, including our search for spirituality and truth. Griffith transcending all the limitations placed on his role or status in the world of humans implies that he holds some objective worth or value to to the universe/cosmos. And indeed, that's how it is. Too bad the main God in Berserk is an evil one, so following "predetermination" can be kind of an icky thing, in this case...


The incident of Guts leaving the Band of the Hawk was also such a hammer on Griffith because he was completely oblivious, he though Guts was his 'dog' still, just like Caska. "The degree of one's emotions varies inversely with one's knowledge of the facts"-- This saying comes to mind.


To some degree, yes, definitely. One theme in Berserk is "realizing what you have after it's lost." That works for Guts when reminiscing over his place in the Hawks, after the hopelessness of Griffith's situation was revealed, just prior to the eclipse. Guts realized his place was with the Hawks all along, only after that future was closed off to him.

Also, for Griffith, he only realized how "bright" Guts was in his eyes, as he was being tortured in the dungeon, and had since long lost hope in his dream. Prior to his defeat, Griffith saw himself on top. Guts was his most cherished subordinate. Afterwards, Guts was the brightest thing in his vision. Trumping everything else, including his dream, which had since become meaningless to him after losing sight of it due to his hopelessness.


Is Griffith's high moral character part of his mask? Example: When Guts if forced to kill that kid in his assasination. When griffith finds out... that sly smile... he didn't care at all about the death of an innocent kid (he seemed to be thinking more like; "heh, two birds with one stone")? Is he really *that* ethical?


IMO, yes and no. Griffith feels righteous in his assassinations and cloak-and-dagger affairs because he is able to rationalize it as a necessary step on his rise to power. So, no, he isn't that ethical. His ethics, in general, are somewhat convenient, but I'm sure there are many ethics he would have great difficulty betraying. For example, likely anything he can relate to personally will earn his sympathies. However, he generally tries to avoid these feelings, unless they're useful. IMO, his ethics are somewhat self serving. He cares strongly for those who matter to him, but I don't think he thinks too highly of most other people. He tries to align himself under "justice" more than anything else. And "justice", depending on the person's conception of it, can be somewhat cold or uncaring. IMO, it's a convenient mindset to have, considering Griffith's aspirations. True ethics (ie: "right and wrong") would get in the way.


Why didn't he kill the minister off after he had already used him to get rid of the Queen?


I think he intuitively knew Foss would never again be a threat. If anything, he would be an ally. Griffith terrified Foss into utter obedience. Afterwards, he could only see Griffith as superior. And rightfully so, fate had it be that way.


How do you think Berserk will end? Will Guts kill Griffith and 'save the day'?


I think, somehow, Griffith will be denied his "dream" via Guts vengeance. I think, in the end, it will come as a sort of quasi-redemption that can really only come to Griffith in death. He's no longer human, his heart is cold, the only feelings he has are left by the demon child (Guts and Caska's offspring tainted by Femto/Griffith's demon seed during his rape of Caska during the eclipse). The demon child still feels feelings for it's parents, and Griffith took it's body as his vessel when being re-incarnated into the physical world as a Godhand. However, Griffith is a being now beyond conventional redemption. He will pursue his dream until he can no longer do so, without any emotion to get in the way, this time. The only way Griffith can be redeemed is by failing. Only then does it open up the possibility for him to recognize the folly of his decision (becoming a Godhand) because in the end, his dream is still denied to him.

And with the way things are going, with Griffith denying Guts and viewing him as insignificant, Guts has no choice but to make himself once again significant, in Griffith's eyes. He must feel some strong need to have Griffith recognize his pain. The only way he can really do that is by taking everything away from him and making him face his mortal demise. Then maybe cue some sort of sorrowful lamenting. I don't think it will be too melodramatic, though. Griffith's heart is somewhat dead. It would perhaps be something like "I should have known you wouldn't stop fighting. You never could give up..." Just sort of melancholy and bitter-sweet recognition of their significance to each other, but nothing too heavy handed or phony, considering what Griffith has become.


What do you think of his 'revenge' at the end of the Anime? Or do you think it wasn't a revenge?

IMO, it was only revenge. But revenge in a way that is no longer human. Both Guts and Caska hurt Griffith by finding love in each other. The rape was sort of like Griffith showing Guts how meaningless he finds Guts to be, now. Before he felt beneath him, and now he's been reborn as someone who just no longer cares or has any feelings/compassion.


Concerning turning the entirety of the manga into anime or OVA upon its completion: I don't think that is such a good idea. Most of the stuff done today lacks sentiment... it lacks 'magic'. The only way I see it coming close to the original is by getting as many people of the original project involved as possible (director, screenwriter, animators, etc), and still it's risky. I'm not saying otherwise it is going to suck per se, but I highly doubt it will be as successful. I'm convinced the original Berserk anime will always be the masterpiece for me. But this is my own and subjective humble opinion, most likely influenced by nostalgia. You see, what I have for berserk is genuine passion.


I think they could do it better a second time, once everything it wrapped up, because the story will be self-contained/complete, and they won't leave out important characters like Puck or Skullknight. Both characters would be essential to a second season of the anime, if they were ever to make it. So anyone who hadn't read the manga wouldn't know who the characters are. I also think they could make the second version a more faithful adaption, since Berserk's fandom/artistic cred would be more established at this point.


Ah yeah, I'm now convinced that he is INTJ, although he seems to have that unusual ability or "trait" of being able to inspire an army of followers. Ability that we have witnessed present in many NFs throughout history, especially INFJs (Jesus Christ, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr, etc). I mean, look at him, he is almost mystical in his appearance and demeanor. I can't determine if he uses Te or Ti though, as that detail would shift the balance to either INTJ of INFJ.

I agree, he's hard to peg.

[Thrifty]

Yet again, I agree with most of what you say. I'll comment on a few things regardless:

I'm not exactly eager to classify it, because then I might have people jumping down my throat, saying I made implications I didn't make.

Yeah, it might be for the better. Not that Griffith would loose any character appeal in my opinion, but if I had to pronounce myself I would say he's more 'asexual' than anything. His dream is so all-compassing that he does not have time for such things.

In a sense, they are equals, despite being different. They also sort of represent varying life paths. Guts is content with a simpler dream. In a way, that's admirable. It makes more sense to be content with less.

Guts is something else. Guts doesn't necessarily care about Griffith's dream like his other subordinates do. He's really just sort of along for the ride. The things he does for Griffith are generally out of friendship or respect, not because he particularly cares about Griffith's dream.

Do you think Griffith really respected Guts as his equal? I think he respected him the most out of his comrades, but still, he thinks he is superior. At least that's what I think when I remember the scene when he is enticing the princess, and he says that his equal is one who follows their own dream; that his subordinates are not really his friends. That's when his demise began imo.

Also, does Guts have a 'dream'? He only seems to care about slashing his sword. There's a brief period of time when he wields his sword for Griffith. That scene in the rooftop shortly after Griffith said to him; "Why do I need a reasons every time I decide to risk my life for you". Until he realized(or interpreted?) Griffith didn't really consider him his friend.

Although you could argue that Gut's dream is that in fact, he doesn't have a dream. That's what makes him different to the others who adhere to Griffith's dream, like fireflies that get near the stronger flame. Guts like you say, doesn't really care, he's along just for the ride and because of his friendship with Griffith. He's a free bird.

Would he have stayed with the Hawks indefinitely if Griffith wouldn't have slipped his tongue in that moment? I think it's possible. He was deeply hurt there, and Guts is the kind of person who doesn't forgive easily.


I'm not saying Griffith felt sexual towards Guts, but I don't think it's entirely impossible. There is some sort of reciprocal affection there. Again, not saying it's sexual, but they're certainly caring of one another. This especially comes through in the chapters following Griffith's escape from the Tower of Rebirth. The chapter titled "Breastplate", specifically. They share so many looks, and even though the reunion is so sad, it's still how heartwarming how caring they seem for each other.


I think it's completely platonic, and it's friendship. Although on Griffith's part, as cold and unemotional he is (or you could say "oblivious to his own feelings") it was the closest thing he ever felt to love. True love of the purest kind doesn't need the physical component at all imo. Somebody could call me idealistic (not that I care for that matter) but that's just what I think.

Think of Guts vowing vengeance afterwards. It isn't just because of the bad things Griffith did to hurt Guts (raping Caska) it's because Guts felt so strongly about Griffith that all he can do is turn his feelings of betrayal into hatred and (imo righteous) vindication.


I'll give you my thoughts of this subject a little further.


In that way, he's unlike Caska, who is more of a "hero worshiper" to Griffith than an equal.

Yeah, Caska is basically the most loyal bodyguard. She owes Griffith her life and her honor after all.


Even during the eclipse, before the demon feast/blood-orgy, Guts choses to rush to Griffith's side, instead of Caska's, who is his lover/the mother of his child. Guts already knows the terms of the sacrifice. In terms of situation, Caska was in pretty close proximity to some monsters, while Griffith was relatively protected and even somewhat coddled.



Now that I think of it that was pretty weird and somewhat unfair to Caska. But well, it's just how Guts is (although I don't think he was completely sure that Griffith runs no risk, he has no idea what's going on. He just happens to be by his side when the hand rises, because he is maimed and Guts stands by him to help him. Caska is not maimed). Also, I read a theory that people value other people on behalf of the change the person in question induces in their brains (neuron patterns sp?). And Griffith basically changed Guts' life, while Caska wasn't nearly as important, despite being his lover and the mother of his child (although by this point he didn't know she was pregnant). Guts is a very independent person who does not get too attached to anybody. His loathsome past has much to do with it. You can clearly observe this in his behavior after the eclipse. He gets some companions on his side, but it is always them who for some reasons (because they like him, circumstance, etc) choose to follow him around. He pretty much does what he needs to do (kill apostles) and ignores them. If they stick around and help; fine, if not; he doesn't really care. He's a lone wolf, completely fixated on exerting his revenge on Griffith.


I don't think it's narcissism. I think it's something else. It's not like he's certain of his superiority, he has natural human doubt about his perceived purpose. I think it's as much to prove to himself that he can make a significant difference in the world, or something.

When a person has an inkling that they're intended for some deeper purpose, it can become something difficult to stray from. It can encompass many things about us as individuals, including our search for spirituality and truth. Griffith transcending all the limitations placed on his role or status in the world of humans implies that he holds some objective worth or value to to the universe/cosmos. And indeed, that's how it is. Too bad the main God in Berserk is an evil one, so following "predetermination" can be kind of an icky thing, in this case...

Yep, Griffith is very existentialist. I can relate to all you say here, it 'resonates' with me.

When it was revealed that the God of berserk was evil (that blob of matter, ugh :yuck:), I kind of brooded over the subject for a few days, wondering if the God (if there is one) of our world is evil as well.


To some degree, yes, definitely. One theme in Berserk is "realizing what you have after it's lost." That works for Guts when reminiscing over his place in the Hawks, after the hopelessness of Griffith's situation was revealed, just prior to the eclipse. Guts realized his place was with the Hawks all along, only after that future was closed off to him.

Also, for Griffith, he only realized how "bright" Guts was in his eyes, as he was being tortured in the dungeon, and had since long lost hope in his dream. Prior to his defeat, Griffith saw himself on top. Guts was his most cherished subordinate. Afterwards, Guts was the brightest thing in his vision. Trumping everything else, including his dream, which had since become meaningless to him after losing sight of it due to his hopelessness.


Yes, that's one of the main themes; "Why do I only realize it's importance when I have lost it?".

Guts also trumps everything else because after what happened (Guts leaving him), Griffith began to hate Guts. Just a little, because he hadn't even had time to reflect on what had happened, He was mostly confused (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) at that point (hence he made the mistake to sleep with the princess, also like you say, to feel like he had some control still). But over the course of his 'stay' with the torturer, that hate grew, mixed with the pain from the torture to create a hate (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) of epic proportions, possibly the maximum hate one can feel for another human being. He blames Guts for his disgrace. That's why the first thing he does when he sees Guts in the dungeon is trying to choke (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) him. Although after realizing how sorry (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) Guts was for what he inadvertently had set in motion, he places his arm on top of Guts' to show his understanding, remembering for an instant their past friendship. BUT... the hate (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) comes out again (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). I will expand on this a little further.

IMO, yes and no. Griffith feels righteous in his assassinations and cloak-and-dagger affairs because he is able to rationalize it as a necessary step on his rise to power. So, no, he isn't that ethical. His ethics, in general, are somewhat convenient, but I'm sure there are many ethics he would have great difficulty betraying. For example, likely anything he can relate to personally will earn his sympathies. However, he generally tries to avoid these feelings, unless they're useful. IMO, his ethics are somewhat self serving. He cares strongly for those who matter to him, but I don't think he thinks too highly of most other people. He tries to align himself under "justice" more than anything else. And "justice", depending on the person's conception of it, can be somewhat cold or uncaring. IMO, it's a convenient mindset to have, considering Griffith's aspirations. True ethics (ie: "right and wrong") would get in the way.


Yep, he has his own system of morals. However, I won't try to excuse him for not giving a damn about Guts killing little children BUT there's a very important detail: have you noticed how Griffith is completely confident (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) of everything he does? How he seems to know that he is going to win always, that everything is going to come his way? And so it seems, UNTIL he gets caught and tortured. Fate. He knows, that's why he is so confident. It's not that he thinks so, he knows. That's one of the reasons I think he did not care about that kid because he was the next in line to the throne and it was a very convenient coincidence that Guts was forced to kill him. Either he has already noticed that he is somehow touched 'by fate' or he subconsciously (not consciously because he doesn't seem to remember until he is reminded during the eclipse) remembers the time when he was given the Red Behelit by Ubik. Fate, the same thing that stops him from going insane in the dungeon, the same thing that stops him from killing himself when he attempts to impale his throat, just a moment before the Behelit mysteriously appears in his hand. It's the same thing that has him risk his life for Guts numerous times without hesitation, because he knows he will come on top, always. It's somewhere in his mind, telling him what he has to do to fulfill his destiny. Directing his actions.

So his smile when he gets the news of the assassination is more like; "Yes, I knew it..." than; "heh, two birds with one stone" ihmo.

I think he intuitively knew Foss would never again be a threat. If anything, he would be an ally. Griffith terrified Foss into utter obedience. Afterwards, he could only see Griffith as superior. And rightfully so, fate had it be that way.

Hmmm... while I agree with you that he intuitively knew he wasn't a threat anymore, common sense tells me (and Guts told him too) that Foss was better dead. For two main reasons: 1º Foss is the kind of person who CAN'T be trusted ever, once a betrayer always a betrayer. 2º He STILL fears Griffith, which was the main reason that drove him to plot against Griffith. Hence, always a threat; better dead. Play it safe. Not to mention too that he is the only person besides Guts that knows all about the ploy to kill the Queen. He's just too dangerous.

For example: imagine some new enemy had appeared some time afterwards, another noble for instance. If Foss was, like you say, is terrified into total obedience, he could use him to plot against the new enemy, but... what if Foss sided with the enemy and made things complicated for Griffith? It's a risk I wouldn't take. There would be other ways to deal with the situation without the risk that is having Foss around.

In any case, I see a different Griffith throughout these scenes after he has gotten rid of the Queen. He's much more relaxed and careless (like leaving the money on the dead bandits), it's difficult to explain. Could it be that he sees the completion of his dream much nearer (basically the only thing left to do was to marry the Princess) and he is not being as ruthless anymore? Hence maybe the fact that Foss had a little daughter affected his decision? Griffith is not a Monster after all (at least not yet).

I think, somehow, Griffith will be denied his "dream" via Guts vengeance. I think, in the end, it will come as a sort of quasi-redemption that can really only come to Griffith in death. He's no longer human, his heart is cold, the only feelings he has are left by the demon child (Guts and Caska's offspring tainted by Femto/Griffith's demon seed during his rape of Caska during the eclipse). The demon child still feels feelings for it's parents, and Griffith took it's body as his vessel when being re-incarnated into the physical world as a Godhand. However, Griffith is a being now beyond conventional redemption. He will pursue his dream until he can no longer do so, without any emotion to get in the way, this time. The only way Griffith can be redeemed is by failing. Only then does it open up the possibility for him to recognize the folly of his decision (becoming a Godhand) because in the end, his dream is still denied to him.

And with the way things are going, with Griffith denying Guts and viewing him as insignificant, Guts has no choice but to make himself once again significant, in Griffith's eyes. He must feel some strong need to have Griffith recognize his pain. The only way he can really do that is by taking everything away from him and making him face his mortal demise. Then maybe cue some sort of sorrowful lamenting. I don't think it will be too melodramatic, though. Griffith's heart is somewhat dead. It would perhaps be something like "I should have known you wouldn't stop fighting. You never could give up..." Just sort of melancholy and bitter-sweet recognition of their significance to each other, but nothing too heavy handed or phony, considering what Griffith has become.

---

O_o I pretty much agree with this. Do you think we should notify an administrator to put a *SPOILERS* tag in the topic? (just in case)

Only part I don't completely agree is the bold part because I don't think Guts really cares about anyone viewing him as insignificant, that seems more like Griffith's mindset. Guts is very prideful like Griffith, but Guts' pride is more self-sufficient, unlike Griffith's which depends on other people (admiring him, etc). But I agree that he wants to strip Griffith of everything to make him feel his pain, and in his own mindset, equalize things a little after what he did to him, Caska, and the rest of the band of the Hawk.

He might have cared about Griffith opinion back then, but I don't think he cares at this point.

I also hope that along the way, Guts or the SK get rid of the God Hand (and all the apostles) because I sincerely hate them :annoyed:. Slan is hot though :gorgeous:

Btw, I wanted to ask you: do you remember if at any point Griffith expressed regret for what he did to his former comrades after being reborn? The thing is that I stopped reading the manga a long time ago (yeah I deserve punishment, I know :P) and while I have the abstract recall that he does, I don't quite trust my memory and chances are you have it much more fresh in your mind than me.

[Thrifty]

IMO, it was only revenge. But revenge in a way that is no longer human. Both Guts and Caska hurt Griffith by finding love in each other. The rape was sort of like Griffith showing Guts how meaningless he finds Guts to be, now. Before he felt beneath him, and now he's been reborn as someone who just no longer cares or has any feelings/compassion.

Lots of stuff to comment on this:

Griffith was magnificent before being tortured, that's undeniable. After being reduced to a pelt of a human being, he still retains his keen awareness at least (he's Dom. Ni). He realized something had changed when he is rescued from the dungeon. Later, he notices again when he sees Guts interacting with Caska at the encampment. He notices all (that he is a burden to them now, that Guts wants to leave again, that Caska wants to go with him because he has fallen for him... and eventually she would have gone with him I'm sure).

How much he has been hurt by all this? Immensely (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). He is not aware of how hurt he is, because he is INTJ. He is painfully oblivious to his own emotions. That is, until he becomes a Godhand, his 'Id' comes out. All that hate and vindictiveness, a beast of raw emotion that had grown inside of him, is set free. And that beast only has one thing in its twisted mind; causing extreme pain (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). Maim for life. Revenge. But the beast is without emotion paradoxically. It's just a reflection of the original Griffith's deepest being.

With the aid of the God Hand knowledge (from the superior dimension), he knows what is the best way to hurt Caska, and especially to hurt Guts, which is much harder:

Rape. Think of Guts past, how he was raped; the impotence of not being able to do anything about it. How that experience shaped his character forever. Not so much the act of being raped; the impotence... being helpless over a situation, is what caused Guts irreparable damage. The fact that he was sold by the man he considered his father. Betrayal. He couldn't trust anybody anymore. After killing Gambino and fleeing, he wanders as a mercenary, not really giving a damn if he is killed in the next battle. He is completely reckless, like in his fight against Bazuso, which Griffith witnesses; "This guy isn't going to last much"-- he thinks to himself. Later, he orders his men to attack him to test his strength. He sees a potential magnificent ally in him, and also feels compassion for him, so he recruits him. Griffith finds Guts, and Guts finds the band of Hawk, people who value him and that he can trust. He finds the love of his life. All thanks to Griffith.

Now think of Caska who hated having been born a woman, and was almost raped as a child. She was saved and given new life. By Griffith.

Then, Guts decides that he needs to find his own reasons to live, his own dream, so that he can stand on equal terms with Griffith to be his friend. He leaves the band, almost destroying Griffith in a duel (making Griffith realize that he no longer has control over Guts, like a father who suddenly realizes his son is an adult already), spends a year doing nothing to later realize that he had already found what he wanted in the band of the Hawk, like a total fool. He breaks the Band of the Hawk for nothing. Griffith was under a lot of pressure, and that was the straw that broke the Camel's back.

Let's go now to when Griffith is lying inert (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) on the floor of the caravan, destroyed and covered in bandages. This is what's going on in Griffith's mind, but it's just a low key murmur:

"You were nothing. You were dead. I give you everything... and you forsaken me?? This is what I get in return?! You both forsake me ?!! Now you will pay. I am going to take back everything I have given you... and a bit more."

Also, I forgot to mention that Griffith is EXTREMELY possessive of his loved-ones, and that adds to the hate factor later, when he sees that "possessions" are betraying him. His way of thinking is "I care for you, I give you what you need... why would you want to leave me?" He just does NOT UNDERSTAND (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) why anybody would want to leave him. That's why he doesn't give a damn if he had accidentally killed Guts when they dueled for the second time.

Then comes the Eclipse. He utters the word "sacrifice (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)". He sinks deeper... deeper. The monster is born (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). The murmur becomes an all-encompassing shriek.

Think for a moment what is happening during this part. If you don't have the anime handy, this AMV (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) might help (the last part).

Recreating Gut's rape, exploiting Caska's insecurities about being a woman in a world dominated by men, and hurting one of the only people Guts' found he could trust; his love, having him witness it. Their idolized hero turned into their torturer (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). The same pain he was through himself inflicted on the person he loves. The same impotence (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). The future mother of his child tainted by a demon seed. Scarring both for life, mentally and physically. All in one shot.

Caska breaks. Guts once again prevails. He's tough...


That's what I'd call Revenge. Excellent, as expected of Griffith.

Did you notice how when the SK arrives all the God Hand stand still? I think Griffith became the head God Hand for some reason (despite being the youngest) and he doesn't want them to interfere. They could have been killed in an instant if he wanted so, but no, he lets SK rescue them because he wants them alive, he wants them to suffer. Also, again, fate is present here. He knew they would leave. He was planning to let them live like that.

Guts may be insignificant now (although I'm not completely sure, we'll see when they have the final showdown) but at that moment just being reborn Godhand he still cared enough to do this. However, here we see Fate again. Guts needs to hate Griffith and seek his revenge, for whatever it is going to happen that is relevant to Fate. It's all connected.

I'm not really sure who I side with, honestly. I often find myself hesitating over who I root for, Griffith or Guts, because they both have their own very valid reasons for what they've done/are doing. Griffith's hate for Guts was justified, and Guts hate for Griffith is perhaps even more justified.


I think they could do it better a second time, once everything it wrapped up, because the story will be self-contained/complete, and they won't leave out important characters like Puck or Skullknight. Both characters would be essential to a second season of the anime, if they were ever to make it. So anyone who hadn't read the manga wouldn't know who the characters are. I also think they could make the second version a more faithful adaption, since Berserk's fandom/artistic cred would be more established at this point.

Yeah I agree, there's a lot of potential. But it is that same potential that scares me; I would hate to see something half-assed come out that would smear Berserk's good name. I only hope at least they cast Susumu Hirasawa to make the soundtrack, if he's still alive by then of course (I hope so). With the amount of detail each chapter of Berserk has, it's no surprise they take so long to be released. You can read other mangas and 10 chapters don't have the detail of a single chapter of Berserk (I'm not a big fan of manga in general btw). Kentaro is a die-hard perfectionist, that's for sure.

Another thing: While I find both Isidro and especially Puck very amusing at times, imo, it just doesn't go well with the mood of Berserk. In the first episode of the anime, I did not miss Puck at all. However, I've never been too fond of comic relief in any anime for that mater (that wasn't a humorous anime in the first place). Berserk is an incredibly tragic, dark story. I don't see the point in having a silly fairy flying around doing random things. But perhaps that's exactly why it is there, to not overload the mood with brooding.

I'm enjoying putting all this into words ^^

[Avid]

Well, I was going to comment something with you guys but I think you pretty much covered everything. Berserk was a great anime and great story. I just wish the intro song hadn't been that terrible engrish song and no that isn't a typo. It did kind of grow on me but still...lol.

[Kisai]

*applause* What great insights into the characters! Thank you for your contributions to this thread!

[umop_3pisdn]

Yeah, it might be for the better. Not that Griffith would loose any character appeal in my opinion, but if I had to pronounce myself I would say he's more 'asexual' than anything. His dream is so all-compassing that he does not have time for such things.

I'm not sure if he's asexual, it might just be very low on his list of priorities.


Do you think Griffith really respected Guts as his equal? ...


He maybe viewed himself to be superior to Guts, but I'm not entirely sure he felt that to be true. That was maybe just how he chose to see it. Both Griffith and Guts are somewhat "touched by fate". For Guts it seems to be more of the 'bad touch', but still, it's really clear to anyone. Guts has something of a unique fate. His destiny is quite a bit different from others, just as Griffith's destiny is very different from those around him. He's been given a poor lot in life, certainly. Most of his fights are merely for survival. Guts has so little, and yet he still fights so hard to live, and win, and is quite willing to risk his life in the process. Guts isn't an ordinary person. Griffith recognizes this, though how deeply he recognizes it (especially due to his denial of his feelings) is difficult to say.

Griffith is all about calculated risks and aspiration. He could never be like Guts. Griffith lives in the future (aspiration), and Guts lives in the present (survival). Griffith's dream is as much of a crutch as it is a foundation. Guts doesn't have such a crutch. In terms of character, he's infinitely more likely to lead a 'happy' life than Griffith, because he has so few preconceptions. Griffith maybe sees himself as intellectually superior... Or a person destined for a certain kind of glory. Still, there's a purpose that Guts has that I think holds a certain appeal. And I don't think Griffith is immune to seeing that appeal. In fact, I'm sure in some ways, he sees it better than anyone, since they are so different from each other, in this regard.

Guts is often called the "struggler", that was the destiny he's been given, since birth. He was born from a corpse, it's never really been easy for him. Life has always been something he's fought for. Griffith sees this, and I think he sees something in it. A certain kind of (often unrecognized) glory. Like a person just living in order to live, rather than just living in order to fulfill some 'higher purpose' or something.

Like at the very beginning, when fighting Pazuzo or whatever. Guts gambles his life on a single sword blow, to fell Pazuzo. It pays off, but he nearly died, himself, in the process. Griffith was greatly impressed by this. Something about Guts and the way he fought spoke to Griffith quite deeply.

I mean, Griffith has never pursued a subordinate before. Everyone else who joined the Hawks joined of their own free will. Even Caska was offered the choice. However, something resounded so strongly with Griffith about Guts, that he felt the need to claim him in a duel! Everyone else, Griffith would rather they decide on their own terms, so no blame falls on him if they die supporting his dream. Guts, however, Griffith wanted him to be a part of the Hawks badly enough, that it didn't matter if Griffith didn't even give him a choice. I guess it made sense to Griffith, since he was the one getting his hands dirty in challenging him. Still, this can be seen as the first time Griffith gains sight of something outside his dream. Yes, Guts is a good fighter, but I don't think that's entirely why Griffith chose to have him join the hawks.

It's something entirely unprecedented for Griffith. I think Griffith may have recognized a certain destiny in Guts. Like Griffith sees himself destined for big things, he can see that Guts has a destiny, as well. As I said, they're both 'touched by fate'. I think Griffith is able to recognize a sort of equality. Don't get me wrong, they're both different people, with different strengths. Still, I think there's much Guts could be respected for, over Griffith. I think Griffith may see that, in a way, though he may not fully 'recognize' it, just due to how he is.

Maybe he's not clear with himself why he's willing to risk himself in order to keep Guts around. At first to gain his loyalty, and then saving him from certain death at the hands of fucking Zodd,basically one of the most terrifying creatures they could possibly come across. Indeed, they both only survived because Griffith happened to hold the Behelit.

Afterwards, Guts asks why Griffith risked his life to save him, Griffith doesn't answer, instead it's sort of a cop out. More along the lines of "why do you have to ask?" I think this is doubly meaningful. Not only is Griffith evading Guts question (of "why the hell would you risk everything for a simple pawn like me?" It's clear to Guts there's no logical sense in it, and I think at this point Guts must be wondering...) but it's also a sort of self-evasion. Perhaps Griffith doesn't want to think about it. Maybe it's the sort of thing he's more prone to dismissing. There's obviously something there, though, or Griffith wouldn't have rushed into the hands of certain death, to save Guts from some terrifying monster thing.

That's why Caska got so angry at Guts. Guts' foolishness so often caused Griffith to take risks, in order to bail Guts out. Does Griffith strike you as the type to take risks in anything, compassionately, for the sake of another? If a risk, certainly a highly calculated and cost-analyzed one. And one that moves him towards his dream. But every time Griffith risks his life to save Guts, he's risking his dream. Yet Griffith is willing to risk his dream again and again just for the sake of Guts?

Griffith isn't even able to analyze why Guts is so valuable to him. There must be some reason for that. It's obviously not just because Guts is a useful tool. It's always been clear, Griffith 'neglecting' his dream due to Guts has never been the most logical decision. It basically puts his dream on the back burner.

So, all of this amounts to "kind of." Griffith perhaps didn't respect Guts as much as he should have, or wasn't as truthful with his feelings as he should have been. He maybe didn't see Guts as an "equal", in the strictest sense, but there aren't many people who aspire to the same heights as Griffith. So for Griffith's purposes, Guts is the closest thing to an equal Griffith is ever likely to find. Though due to Griffith's belief-structure (and his dream) he may not be able to see Guts as an equal, in that sense.


Also, does Guts have a 'dream'? He only seems to care about slashing his sword. There's a brief period of time when he wields his sword for Griffith. That scene in the rooftop shortly after Griffith said to him; "Why do I need a reasons every time I decide to risk my life for you". Until he realized(or interpreted?) Griffith didn't really consider him his friend.

Although you could argue that Gut's dream is that in fact, he doesn't have a dream. That's what makes him different to the others who adhere to Griffith's dream, like fireflies that get near the stronger flame. Guts like you say, doesn't really care, he's along just for the ride and because of his friendship with Griffith. He's a free bird.


I think it's essentially as you say. Guts dream is that he essentially lacks a dream. He doesn't need one, and in fact, Miura means to communicate that that is the better way to lead one's life. Finding pure absolution in dream/aspiration is so very likely to lead the dreamer/aspirer to ruin. Really, to me it sort of seems like common sense. Griffith needs his dream, as I said, it's very much a crutch. Guts doesn't even need such a crutch. In a way, that is quite admirable. It makes a person more open to what is, rather than what simply might be.

note: had to break up post. I'll continue with the rest later...

Thanks for the feedback. As you can tell, I'm pretty into Berserk. It's definitely one of my favorite fantasy-ish fiction stories. But I find it difficult to put in one genre, since it does so many different things well. From smaller more personal things to more expansive and philosophical/speculative stuff. Miura does so much stuff well, that I generally feel Berserk should hold an almost universal appeal as far as storytelling goes.

I can see what you mean about Miura being a perfectionist. A single panel can convey so much, and so elegantly. It's really the sort of thing you can read through several times, because I find it 'deep' enough that it's difficult for it to get boring or uninteresting. I notice new things each time I read through it, as well as gaining a greater appreciation for Miura's artistic vision.

I'm not a huge fan of manga, either, but with Berserk I take exception.

[Thrifty]

Do not worry if you see some of my views conflict with yours. Feel free to disagree, and I am always open to agree to disagree. I'm also prone to playing Devil's advocate because I know it is a very effective way of 'refining' statements. I might unintentionally project an image of "non-agreeableness" but that is not intentional. Also, if I choose to comment on something and not over something else, most likely it's because I completely agree with you on that matter and to avoid redundancy. Or I might want to leave two sides of an issue 'unresolved' so to speak, either because I haven't made my own mind yet, or for other people who read this to make up their own minds.

That's the beauty in Berserk: that different people are going to have different interpretation of the events, and often all of them will be valid. Because Berserk is *that* good.

My intent is to arrive the most accurate version of the events as possible, and leave this thread sort of as "in depth view" of Berserk as a whole. Hopefully it'll attract more fans of Berserk eventually and it will become more dynamic. (we're like overtaking the thread O.o)


Err... we're both INTJ, you know what I mean -_-; ? Our tendencies... let's try to take it easy, heh. I got carried away because like you I'm very into Berserk. I feel lucky to have encountered someone as interested as you in Berserk, and best of all, with a different approach so I can learn.


Btw, thanks for the feedback everyone :thumbsup: !

[chegra]

I know there was an anime thread... but if Death Note deserves it's own thread, then so does Kentaro Miura's fantasy/horror masterpiece. Death Note is awesome, but as far as literary storytelling and character development goes, it has nothing on Berserk, IMO.

I mean, seriously, is the Guts-Griffith-Caska triangle not one of the most awesome character dynamics you've ever seen?! And the villain... man! So despicable, and yet so entirely flawed and human. The protagonist/villain relationship is one of the deepest and most compelling I've ever seen. As far as the manga as a whole goes, Miura strikes me as somewhat of a literary genius. Seemingly every event in the plot has been exploited for maximum poignancy. I have to give him credit for being able to plan out one pretty amazing story. He hasn't disappointed me yet. Basically every decision he's made, storytelling wise, seems to make some sense when put under scrutiny. And it's still an ongoing project (since 1988!), so I can only speculate as to how it will all end.

I'm kind of wary of discussing the plot, though. Most people seem to have only seen the anime (which is nothing more than a commercial for the manga,) so I'm not sure what's safe and what's not so safe to talk about. Really, I just think Berserk deserves more recognition. Sure it can be full of ridiculous amounts of gore and demon rape, but IMO that's just an adequate way of expressing the hopelessness and horror intrinsic to the Berserk universe.

I thought they stop it