PDA

View Full Version : Why do girls wait so long to have sex


Disillusioned
06-04-2010, 01:25 AM
Why do girls wait so long to have sex? It seems like the more a girl likes a guy the longer she waits to have sex with him. I'm talking about in the context of a potential relationship not one night stands where both people have a mutual understanding that they are just using the other person to meet their physical needs. To me it doesn't make sense that a girl will have sex with a guy that she doesn't have strong feelings for but then won't have sex with the guy she does. It's almost like I'm getting punished for being a good guy!

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not just looking for sex. I will only consider dating a girl if I'm mentally as well as physically attracted to her and I will never pressure her to go further than she is comfortable with but it just seems like if the girl likes the guy she should want to have sex with him even more and express herself physically as well as emotionally to him but then purposely holding back sex seems unauthentic and deceptive (Ironic when girls are always so eager to point out the importance of trust in relationships).

It seems like most girls hold to that '3rd date rule' as if their lives depended on it while others have admitted on forums and such that if they really like the guy they may likely wait a month or longer to sleep with him. I can't speak for all guys (ESFP's and the sort) but for me, I am gunna like the girl the same whether she sleeps with me on the first date or the tenth. It's silly that girls think that withholding sex will actually make a guy like them MORE. Girls are always saying their excuse for waiting is that they want to make sure the guy is interested in them as a person and not just looking for sex so if he stays past the third date(or whenever) the girl thinks she is less likely to get used or hurt. This is rubbish! the guy is either genuinely interested in you or just wants sex, so if he stays after the third date it either means he is just that determined in his goal of getting you to bed (or likes the challenge) in which case once he has gotten sex you will likely get hurt anyways (all you did was prolong the inevitable) and in the case that he does genuinely like you he will just feel hurt and confused why you seemingly don't trust him enough to allow him to satisfy you physically(as well as emotionally) which he wants to do for your sake as much as for his own.

In fact, I'm inclined to like a girl less the longer she waits to have sex with me. It's not about the physical act of sex, rather what it represents. I start to lose my interest in her because I feel she is not willing to show me the same level of trust that I show her. My opinion is sex should just come at a natural stage in the relationship, girls withholding from sex for no other reason than 'it hasn't been the right number of dates yet' is just stupid and hurts relationships rather than helps them. But that's just the rational opinion coming from this INTJ male. Interested to see what others views are about this, especially females of any personality type.

Krazy P
06-04-2010, 01:43 AM
This is not rocket science.

Men have infinite sperm. Women have finite eggs.

Do the math.

Disillusioned
06-04-2010, 01:50 AM
This is not rocket science.

Men have infinite sperm. Women have finite eggs.

Do the math.
I don't quite get what you're saying. Girls don't run out of eggs faster by having sex earlier. It's called menopause they all reach it around the same time. Maybe you should study some anatomy. And also I'm not asking why they wait so long from an age sense just from a relationship sense

Gobbbler
06-04-2010, 01:53 AM
I can't speak for all guys (ESFP's and the sort) but for me, I am gunna like the girl the same whether she sleeps with me on the first date or the tenth. It's silly that girls think that withholding sex will actually make a guy like them MORE.
If a girl is willing to have sex with me on the first date than I will be less interested in them long term. Just am. I suppose it has a lot to do with them having low inhibitions there, which in my mind also translates to faithfulness in a relationship. I don't want a girl who is too casual about sex. In fact, if I like a girl as having LTR potential and she goes home with me on the first or second date, I won't even try to have sex with her. Why? I guess partially that I don't really want to know if she puts out that easily and partially I would just prefer to not get my feelings for her confused with the excitement of sex. Of course, some girls have expressed either insecurity about my not trying or disappointment.:rolleyes: In fact, for many I think it is a turn-off. I think I get "nice guy" labeled and have had some acquaintances (girls) explain to me that if a guy doesn't try to sleep with them and they are willing they either think he is a wimp or he has a tiny penis or some other problem. Great... So if I am NOT the kind of guy many girls complain about all guys being like, there's something wrong with me?

Anyway, girls aren't necessarily wrong to think that it registers with a guy somehow when they sleep with him really early on.

LifesEcstasy
06-04-2010, 01:55 AM
It has nothing to do with biology and everything to do with social conditioning. WHen she has a vested interested in wanting to keep the man she will go to great lengths not to be perceived as the easy lay. She may in fact biologically be wanting to consummate on the first date but she knows she runs a high risk of being rejected if she does so. Guys have kind of dug their own hole on this one. If it wasn't a habit for women to get rejected after some fast sex, they'd be more willing to participate in it. When the emotional risk is low she'll go for it but when it's high she won't.

I don't need to know you love me to get my kit off, but I do need to know you're not then going to turn around and judge me for doing it. The notion that just because she has sex with you easily means that she has sex with anyone easily is quite false. What it really means is that she has high motivation to have sex with you. That does not translate into unfaithfulness or being easy. But we have the media to thank for the perception that a woman's willingness to have sex must mean she is indiscriminant.

Gobbbler
06-04-2010, 01:57 AM
I don't quite get what you're saying. Girls don't run out of eggs faster by having sex earlier. It's called menopause they all reach it around the same time. Maybe you should study some anatomy. And also I'm not asking why they wait so long from an age sense just from a relationship sense

Okay, it was poorly phrased or conceptualized, but evolutionarily, back in the day, a guy can go impregnate 5 girls in 5 days and doesn't lose out on potential mates. A girl has sex with a guy on day 1 and if she gets pregnant, she's stuck carrying his offspring and being unable to have more for at least 9 months, so she should be pickier about sex. Now people way back then didn't conceptualize it this way (at least one would presume) so the underlying biopsychology should to be set up for women to be more choosy as part of their nature.

That's what I think the point of that was.

snater
06-04-2010, 01:57 AM
the end product of sex (i.e. pregnancy) is much more of a commitment for her than it is for him. Regardless of protection used, the risk and cost to a woman is infinitely greater than for a man.

birth control hasn't been around nearly long enough for it to affect adaptive behavior.

Dasein
06-04-2010, 01:58 AM
Well, in order to know you like someone or trust someone, you must spend time with them. As we know, people generally present their best side initially, and hide their flaws. Perhaps a woman waiting for sex is doing so because she conflates trust, emotional connection, and sex. She believes the actions of her body should match the morals in her heart and the convictions of her mind. So, recognizing that a man she likes may very well be "playing her", she is cautious.
Of course, he may still have "played her" after her waiting, but it is certainly not as likely. Generally men who only want sex are weeded out when a woman refuses to sleep with them right away.
This behavior is not an affront to you, but merely a defense mechanism.

Mogura
06-04-2010, 02:09 AM
Why do girls wait so long to have sex?

Because they're... girls?

You just haven't met the right cougar yet...

Claudus
06-04-2010, 02:12 AM
It has nothing to do with biology and everything to do with social conditioning.

I don't need to know you love me to get my kit off, but I do need to know you're not then going to turn around and judge me for doing it.

That looks like biologically driven reasoning to me.

Gobbbler
06-04-2010, 02:18 AM
Well, in order to know you like someone or trust someone, you must spend time with them. As we know, people generally present their best side initially, and hide their flaws. Perhaps a woman waiting for sex is doing so because she conflates trust, emotional connection, and sex. She believes the actions of her body should match the morals in her heart and the convictions of her mind. So, recognizing that a man she likes may very well be "playing her", she is cautious.
Of course, he may still have "played her" after her waiting, but it is certainly not as likely. Generally men who only want sex are weeded out when a woman refuses to sleep with them right away.
This behavior is not an affront to you, but merely a defense mechanism.
I agree with this. There are certainly more than enough men who will lead on a woman who is genuinely interested in them and becoming emotionally involved/attached just for sex. If the man gets the sex early (and many players are impatient about it), then some types will stick around even if they don't care for anything about her other than her attractiveness and the sex. When they do move on, she's been built up to have a bit of a heartbreak, but perhaps moreso the feeling that nobody (male or female) likes: that they've just been tricked and used by someone who doesn't give a crap about them.

Elfrun
06-04-2010, 02:24 AM
Why do girls wait so long to have sex?

There's no feminine code that people follow, however women are disparaged when they are overtly sexual, they get names thrown at them like whore and slut while men who act the same get called players and hi-fived by their mates. The standards are not the same. The potential outcome with unwanted pregnancy is also uneven, don't know how many men consider the possibility before they get into bed with someone but I expect most women would have considered what they would do at some point.

Plus of course the answer that you seem to think is rubbish: A woman may want to wait to be sure that her partner isn't just using her for sex. Read up on the PUA stuff and see the lengths some guys will go to just for a lay.

It's almost like I'm getting punished for being a good guy!

(Ironic when girls are always so eager to point out the importance of trust in relationships).

Your generalisations and assumptions are odd.

It seems like most girls hold to that '3rd date rule' as if their lives depended on it while others have admitted on forums and such that if they really like the guy they may likely wait a month or longer to sleep with him.

A forum is hardly a scientific way of determining what "most girls like". Traditions for traditions sake are lame but that is a separate issue to not jumping straight into bed.

I can't speak for all guys (ESFP's and the sort) but for me, I am gunna like the girl the same whether she sleeps with me on the first date or the tenth. It's silly that girls think that withholding sex will actually make a guy like them MORE.

Iunno, some people place higher value over things that don't come easy. Women have social stigma attached to sleeping with men without "making him work for it" so to speak which may mean he will form a low opinion of her as he believes her willingness to sleep with him is a sign that she would sleep with anyone.

In fact, I'm inclined to like a girl less the longer she waits to have sex with me.

Then it would be in her interests not to jump into bed with you early.

Supaslim
06-04-2010, 02:26 AM
Don't know about the other ladies, but I would be wary of the man who tries for sex too fast. This suggests to me that he's done this with other women to some degree of success (Pavlov's dog). What if he was just going around having dates with women to get sex, pushing for it on the first or second date every time? To me, that implies he doesn't care about a lasting relationship, would be more likely to be unfaithful, and definitely more likely to be carrying STDs- which almost always are incredibly worse for women than men. Not to mention pregnancy- if a woman gets knocked up, she's often stuck raising the baby alone, and even if she decides to abort or put it up for adoption, the stigma of having an illegitimate child/giving the child up/aborting will follow her forever.

So, by waiting for sex, you're making sure the man is interested in you (not giving up on you after a couple dates because of lack of sex), increasing your chances of staying together.

And before somebody says "not all men are like that!" I'd like to remind you, it only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch. Because there are SOME men like that out there, women feel the need to stay on guard with ALL men.

Dasein
06-04-2010, 02:27 AM
:anxious:Sometimes, the guy makes the girl wait for sex.

LifesEcstasy
06-04-2010, 03:26 AM
That looks like biologically driven reasoning to me.

Oh really? What part of my ovaries is responsible for my aversion to having sex with someone who may turn out to be an asshole? I'm so tired of the argument that humans are slaves to biology....yawn....:dozey:

As a biologically sterile woman I'd assume that my biological enslavement mechanism would be intelligent enough to know that my ovaries are as useful as boiled eggs. Further I would expect to have zero sex drive since no issue would be forthcoming from my baby factory. Guess biology has really screwed up there....

Disillusioned
06-04-2010, 03:36 AM
Okay, it was poorly phrased or conceptualized, but evolutionarily, back in the day, a guy can go impregnate 5 girls in 5 days and doesn't lose out on potential mates. A girl has sex with a guy on day 1 and if she gets pregnant, she's stuck carrying his offspring and being unable to have more for at least 9 months, so she should be pickier about sex. Now people way back then didn't conceptualize it this way (at least one would presume) so the underlying biopsychology should to be set up for women to be more choosy as part of their nature.

That's what I think the point of that was.

Got it. Though, a girl can still have just as much sex as a guy, all this means is she has to be responsible for using birth control. girls should be responsible for their own bodies and not expect that every guy will have a condom (cuz many won't). I always use condoms cuz I don't want to get STD's but some guys just don't give a f*** or they ran out the day before the situation arises (this excuse is most of the time complete rubbish).

I do have a friend though that has gotten six girls pregnant. I think this is pretty irresponsible on his part but it is kinda hard to argue that the girl isn't also 50% responsible (there are plenty more forms of birth control than condoms i.e. the pill, which girls should consider if they choose to be sexually active).

Claudus
06-04-2010, 03:56 AM
I'm so tired of the argument that humans are slaves to biology....yawn....:dozey:

How can you break the bonds of slavery if you don't even recognize them?

There is no chain around my neck, pulling me down this path before me, I am free... yawn.... :whip:

zibber
06-04-2010, 04:05 AM
There's no feminine code that people follow, however women are disparaged when they are overtly sexual, they get names thrown at them like whore and slut while men who act the same get called players and hi-fived by their mates. The standards are not the same. The potential outcome with unwanted pregnancy is also uneven, don't know how many men consider the possibility before they get into bed with someone but I expect most women would have considered what they would do at some point.

YES!

There is a double moral standard when it comes to sex. This might be a reason for women to inhibit themselves somewhat.

Also, this isn't some kind of cosmic rule. You speak of "girls" as if this was one homogenous, uniform group of people.

Disillusioned
06-04-2010, 04:23 AM
If a girl is willing to have sex with me on the first date than I will be less interested in them long term. Just am. I suppose it has a lot to do with them having low inhibitions there, which in my mind also translates to faithfulness in a relationship.

I see your point. I would never try to sleep with a girl the first night I meet her (definition of a one night stand) if I want a relationship with her. But I think it also has to do with the connection you have with that person. And with what actually constitutes a date. For instance, I was seeing this girl for about 3 weeks. I'm in college so I'd hangout with her every weekend when we threw parties at my apartment (which is where I met her in the first place) and we would sometimes go to other parties together. So even though we had been hanging out almost every night for 3 weeks (or at least 3 nights a week) we hadn't really gone on a ‘formal date’ like going to a movie or dinner. She had stayed over a few nights and we watched a movie together at my place one night (I guess that equals '1' date). But she still wouldn't even let me touch her below the waist.

What I'm saying is that it's all relative. We had been seeing each other for 3 weeks but just because we hadn't necessarily gone on 3 official dates doesn't mean she doesn't know me. But yet then someone could meet a girl and take her out the next three nights that week and then she would sleep with him on the third night (if she is going by the '3rd date' rule). I've seen the girl 9 times in the past 3 weeks where as a girl could see a guy 3 times and know much less about him but have sex with him (according to this rule) that's what I mean when I say it is irrational and that sex should just come natural in the relationship. Many people are equating the date thing to mean the first time she hangs out with a guy and the third time she hangs out with him. Of course I have less respect for a girl who is willing to sleep with me the first night but that doesn't necessarily equate to the first date. the girl just needs to use common sense and her judgment instead of relying on some dumb rule.

As we know, people generally present their best side initially, and hide their flaws.

haha not true for INTJ's

INTJ = socially awkward

Blse
06-04-2010, 04:42 AM
It has nothing to do with biology and everything to do with social conditioning.

Oh, baloney. Of course, it has to do with biology. Care to explain why women have such a strong preference for tall men? For muscular men? Because in modern day society it's really important to be tall and muscular, right? Pfftt. Just one example. People don't decide on who to get into a relationship with on rational grounds. If that were the case, we'd be swapping relationship resumes. People make these deicions based on emotions, emotions tied to biology. Look at the human brain. Sexual attraction and strong emotions surrounding dating are centered in the most primeval parts. We don't use that fancy new part of the brain where reasons sits much when it comes to selecting a mate. We say we do, we may wish we do, but we don't. Women date men for whom they "feel it." And no ladies, it ain't your hormones. It's that he appeals to a largely biological instinct of yours. The women on this focrum who've indicate a strong preference for strong, goal-oriented, amibitous and assertive, confident men have provided ample evidence. Are there exceptions, sure. But let's no go too far down the road of idealized wishful thinking.

nowt
06-04-2010, 04:52 AM
We don't use that fancy new part of the brain where reasons sits much when it comes to selecting a mate.

We should try it. We might wait for sex.

Disillusioned
06-04-2010, 06:17 AM
the answer that you seem to think is rubbish: A woman may want to wait to be sure that her partner isn't just using her for sex. Read up on the PUA stuff and see the lengths some guys will go to just for a lay.

My point exactly. Simply waiting til the third date does not guarantee that the guy isn't still just using her for sex. Thanks for further proving my point

It's almost like I'm getting punished for being a good guy!
(Ironic when girls are always so eager to point out the importance of trust in relationships)

Your generalizations and assumptions are odd.

Well, that's cuz those two lines came from completely different paragraphs. What I really said was

It's almost like I'm getting punished for being a good guy!

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not just looking for sex. I will only consider dating a girl if I'm mentally as well as physically attracted to her and I will never pressure her to go further than she is comfortable with but it just seems like if the girl likes the guy she should want to have sex with him even more and express herself physically as well as emotionally to him but then purposely holding back sex seems unauthentic and deceptive (Ironic when girls are always so eager to point out the importance of trust in relationships).

Makes a little more sense now. Nice attempt at a logical fallacy though

It seems like most girls hold to that '3rd date rule' as if their lives depended on it while others have admitted on forums and such that if they really like the guy they may likely wait a month or longer to sleep with him.

A forum is hardly a scientific way of determining what "most girls like". Traditions for traditions sake are lame but that is a separate issue to not jumping straight into bed.

It may be but the main point of my argument is that adhering to traditions like the '3rd date rule' for traditions sake is dumb so I'm glad to see we agree about that. And the reason I brought it up in the first place is because you always see girls asking 'how many dates should I go on with him before I go all the way' and the most common answer given is 3 hence the '3 date rule' it's a pretty common rule of thumb, google it.

I can't speak for all guys (ESFP's and the sort) but for me, I am gunna like the girl the same whether she sleeps with me on the first date or the tenth. It's silly that girls think that withholding sex will actually make a guy like them MORE.

Iunno, some people place higher value over things that don't come easy.

As an INTJ we don't. we are rational, a goal has value in its own right. How hard it is to achieve that goal just depends on our ingenuity. It doesn't have EXTRA value just for being harder. If you can achieve your goal with minimal effort, all the better.

That's why most people would take it as a complement if you were to tell them "it's easy to like you"

Women have social stigma attached to sleeping with men without "making him work for it" so to speak which may mean he will form a low opinion of her as he believes her willingness to sleep with him is a sign that she would sleep with anyone.

I address this in my previous post but in short I agree that I will most likely have less respect for a girl who will sleep with me the first night I meet her but this does not necessarily equate to the first 'formal' date.

In fact, I'm inclined to like a girl less the longer she waits to have sex with me.

Then it would be in her interests not to jump into bed with you early.

Again, way to take my argument out of context and then attack it *cough* straw man *cough*

If you read the next sentence it says

In fact, I'm inclined to like a girl less the longer she waits to have sex with me. It's not about the physical act of sex, rather what it represents. I start to lose my interest in her because I feel she is not willing to show me the same level of trust that I show her.

Here it is in baby terms for you. My reason for being inclined to like a girl less the longer she waits to have sex with me has nothing to do with the physical act of sex (in other words I'm not using her for sex) but rather it has to do with me feeling more and more like she does not share the same trust level in me that I have in her. And as trust is an important factor in any relationship, it is only natural that I am inclined to like a girl less the more I feel she does not trust me.

PreyingMantis
06-04-2010, 06:31 AM
Oh, baloney. Of course, it has to do with biology. Care to explain why women have such a strong preference for tall men? For muscular men? Because in modern day society it's really important to be tall and muscular, right? Pfftt. Just one example. People don't decide on who to get into a relationship with on rational grounds. If that were the case, we'd be swapping relationship resumes. People make these deicions based on emotions, emotions tied to biology. Look at the human brain. Sexual attraction and strong emotions surrounding dating are centered in the most primeval parts. We don't use that fancy new part of the brain where reasons sits much when it comes to selecting a mate. We say we do, we may wish we do, but we don't. Women date men for whom they "feel it." And no ladies, it ain't your hormones. It's that he appeals to a largely biological instinct of yours. The women on this focrum who've indicate a strong preference for strong, goal-oriented, amibitous and assertive, confident men have provided ample evidence. Are there exceptions, sure. But let's no go too far down the road of idealized wishful thinking.

The "biology" bit is that the woman WILL do it with the man, but not because she loves him, rather because he is "healthy" whatever that means - tall, "masculine", muscled, dominating, whatever. She wants to invest in healthy offspring. Think about it in simple terms: just because he awakens some primeval urge in you that makes you go hot and shaky doesn't mean you even want to talk to him, in fact you might hate his personality, and personality compatibility is essential for long term commitment.

When she makes him wait for "it", it's not only because he's "healthy" or because he's the "healthiest" she can find but because she wants to have a long term emotional relationship with him (presumably he's healthy enough). Long term emotional relationships are a social norm in our culture, in other words conditioning as opposed to biology. Many cultures do not have the same kind of marriage-style relationships where emotions are the main reason for choice of the particular partner, or not in general in their population.

Besides, in many cultures throughout the ages, and perhaps in early human history, a woman-man long term bonding was not necessary for successful rearing of healthy offspring, so why would she need him to stay around for that? Look at single mothers today. Their offspring can be perfectly healthy/functional people.

I have always suspected that the whole argument that women want to save their eggs for providers stems from the patriarchal culture in which the theory was developed and in which its developers were conditioned as scientists. Biologists are not exactly progressive people in some institutions that i've seen.

Despite humans having evolved biologically, they have also evolved socially and cerebrally and are not ONLY motivated by the most basic instincts. Inevitable motivation by basic biological instincts could be an excuse for anything, were it thought to be true. The whole reason humans think they're so special compared to other species is they think they know they can rise above such basic instincts by contrast with "animals". To what extent they have is a whole other topic ...

SelfMadeBum
06-04-2010, 06:40 AM
Oh, baloney. Of course, it has to do with biology. Care to explain why women have such a strong preference for tall men? For muscular men? Because in modern day society it's really important to be tall and muscular, right? Pfftt. Just one example. People don't decide on who to get into a relationship with on rational grounds. If that were the case, we'd be swapping relationship resumes. People make these deicions based on emotions, emotions tied to biology. Look at the human brain. Sexual attraction and strong emotions surrounding dating are centered in the most primeval parts. We don't use that fancy new part of the brain where reasons sits much when it comes to selecting a mate. We say we do, we may wish we do, but we don't. Women date men for whom they "feel it." And no ladies, it ain't your hormones. It's that he appeals to a largely biological instinct of yours. The women on this focrum who've indicate a strong preference for strong, goal-oriented, amibitous and assertive, confident men have provided ample evidence. Are there exceptions, sure. But let's no go too far down the road of idealized wishful thinking.The issue is not attraction, it's sexual patterns of behaviour. Sex behaviour is cultural, meaning it is defined and therefore constrained by society; female sexuality far more so in many cases compared to males'. We can try to make biological explanations to the exclusion of the importance of societal influence, but then we'd be ignoring a major influence on a female's sexual behaviour.

Some time ago we advanced past the mammalian brain where instinct accounted for everything. There are plenty of sound logical reasons why a female would hesitate to become sexually active with a potentially serious mate, a number of which have been pinpointed.

I won't say biological influence amounts to nothing, but please don't be so short sighted to believe society is a pure reflection of biology, or that it somehow matters little in the decisions we make, sexually or otheriwse.

Blse
06-04-2010, 06:48 AM
The issue is not attraction, it's sexual patterns of behaviour. Sex behaviour is cultural, meaning it is defined and therefore constrained by society; female sexuality far more so in many cases compared to males'. We can try to make biological explanations to the exclusion of the importance of societal influence, but then we'd be ignoring a major influence on a female's sexual behaviour.

Some time ago we advanced past the mammalian brain where instinct accounted for everything. There are plenty of sound logical reasons why a female would hesitate to become sexually active with a potentially serious mate, a number of which have been pinpointed.

I won't say biological influence amounts to nothing, but please don't be so short sighted to believe society is a pure reflection of biology, or that it somehow matters little in the decisions we make, sexually or otheriwse.

Yes, a female may rationally over-ride her attraction, but attraction is the most important factor. Sufficient attraction means sex is very likely to occur much sooner than otherwise, and the male will be judged much, much more kindly (in many cases the woman will use her rational brain to rationalize bad behavior exhibited by the male she's attracted to). Attraction is the primary force behind mating behavior. Yes, it battles at times with other forces but it tends to win more often than not.

SelfMadeBum
06-04-2010, 06:54 AM
Yes, a female may rationally over-ride her attraction, but attraction is the most important factor. Sufficient attraction means sex is very likely to occur much sooner than otherwise, and the male will be judged much, much more kindly (in many cases the woman will use her rational brain to rationalize bad behavior exhibited by the male she's attracted to). Attraction is the primary force behind mating behavior. Yes, it battles at times with other forces but it tends to win more often than not.Evidence, please?

As pointed out by another poster, attraction often exists where feelings do not, where respect does not, where there exists no foundation for a lasting relationship. Attraction is merely the beginning and a woman does not have sex with every man she is attracted to for the reasons above. Since she won't sleep with every male who attracts her, where is the evidence that she'll sleep with one sooner than with one who she thinks has long term potential for a relationship?

rika
06-04-2010, 07:03 AM
Yes, a female may rationally over-ride her attraction, but attraction is the most important factor. Sufficient attraction means sex is very likely to occur much sooner than otherwise, and the male will be judged much, much more kindly (in many cases the woman will use her rational brain to rationalize bad behavior exhibited by the male she's attracted to). Attraction is the primary force behind mating behavior. Yes, it battles at times with other forces but it tends to win more often than not.

Agreed.
I have read (The female brain by Louann Brizendine) that a female's inital assessment of a male is based on how he smells. The brain subcounciously decodes these chemical signals. The guy's appearance comes into play as well.
Then, of course, a decision needs to made as to what to do in case of positive signals from the brain. It is also mentioned that females tend to wait a bit before having sex.
I am not sure whether there is a correlation between the waiting period and how serious the woman is.

Elfrun
06-04-2010, 07:17 AM
It may be but the main point of my argument is that adhering to traditions like the '3rd date rule' for traditions sake is dumb so I'm glad to see we agree about that. And the reason I brought it up in the first place is because you always see girls asking 'how many dates should I go on with him before I go all the way' and the most common answer given is 3 hence the '3 date rule' it's a pretty common rule of thumb, google it.

Well, if it's true and the advice isn't being given in a pop-tween style magazine that would also talk about "The Rules" and therefore is not representative of much, it must be a cultural thing. The only people I know who've gone on "official dates" were people who met through dating websites. Seems like a common system in the US and I for one do not understand it.

themuzicman
06-04-2010, 09:03 AM
I'm going to guess that this time period is based upon what a woman sees in you. If she sees someone who is going to be a short term fling, then jumping in is no big deal, since it's going to be over soon anyway.

But if she sees you as a long term marriage prospect, the she's going to want to know whether you're interested in her as a person, whether you'll put up with delayed satisfaction, whether you respect her and her choices. A man to be married has to be different than the man she has a fling with. He has to be mature, able to commit without precondition, wiling to listen to her and meet her needs and desires before his own.

And I think women instinctively know that in order to keep a man interested in pursuing you, she has to put off the goal of having sex until she's sure that you're "the one", and although many women don't make it this far, the best way to do that is to say "If you want it, then you'll have to put a ring on it..."

vagabond
06-04-2010, 09:23 AM
The issue is not attraction, it's sexual patterns of behaviour. Sex behaviour is cultural, meaning it is defined and therefore constrained by society; female sexuality far more so in many cases compared to males'. We can try to make biological explanations to the exclusion of the importance of societal influence, but then we'd be ignoring a major influence on a female's sexual behaviour.

Some time ago we advanced past the mammalian brain where instinct accounted for everything. There are plenty of sound logical reasons why a female would hesitate to become sexually active with a potentially serious mate, a number of which have been pinpointed.

I won't say biological influence amounts to nothing, but please don't be so short sighted to believe society is a pure reflection of biology, or that it somehow matters little in the decisions we make, sexually or otheriwse.

Wouldn't the fact that female sexual behaviour is typically* more socially constrained than male sexual behaviour be a possible indication of an underlying cause?


*Yes, I know, you said many cases, not typically. And no, I don't have any figures to back this up, but it certainly seems this way to me.

Cocachin
06-04-2010, 09:25 AM
Somebody has to backup LifesEcstacy here and it looks like it has to be me.

Unfortunately the vote among men as to whether early sex influences their impression of a woman in a negative way seems to be split down the middle (based on personal enquiries among friends, mostly european college students and graduates, this might strongly vary according to cultural and social factors!!!!). Women know this. So, sadly, even in the f*ing 21st century we have to take this into consideration if we are interested in more than some quick and easy fun.

It´s either that or having the balls/ovaries to say: I´m an emancipated woman and would not want to be with a guy anyway if he thinks any less of me for having the same sex drive as he does.

That being said, in my culture we are talking in terms of dates, days or weeks at the very most (and mostly among the younger)...waiting for months sounds completely otherworldly to most Europeans I´d say and is probably an American thing.

Storm
06-04-2010, 10:02 AM
Sex creates feelings of intimacy. These feelings can be false, and make you think you are more into a person than you would be otherwise. Better to wait a bit to have sex until you are sure you really do like them.

catzmeow
06-04-2010, 10:46 AM
Why do girls wait so long to have sex? It seems like the more a girl likes a guy the longer she waits to have sex with him. I'm talking about in the context of a potential relationship not one night stands where both people have a mutual understanding that they are just using the other person to meet their physical needs. To me it doesn't make sense that a girl will have sex with a guy that she doesn't have strong feelings for but then won't have sex with the guy she does. It's almost like I'm getting punished for being a good guy!

My boyfriend and I waited 2 months to have sex. That would probably have killed you. For many women, sex can create an emotional bond that can cloud our judgement about a man. I personally can't have sex without getting really attached. Good sex, for me, requires a certain level of emotional vulnerability that I can't get to until I have a strong emotional bond to a man and I feel safe in the relationship.

I don't have sex with strangers. If a girl is having one-night stands, but then making a nice guy wait to have sex, she's playing emotional games, and should be dismissed for that reason alone.

On the other hand, I sincerely cherish my inner slut enough to protect her and only expose that part of myself to a man who's demonstrated that he's emotionally invested in me.

YMMV.

Ilara
06-04-2010, 10:47 AM
So even though we had been hanging out almost every night for 3 weeks (or at least 3 nights a week) we hadn't really gone on a ‘formal date’ like going to a movie or dinner. She had stayed over a few nights and we watched a movie together at my place one night (I guess that equals '1' date). But she still wouldn't even let me touch her below the waist.

What I'm saying is that it's all relative. We had been seeing each other for 3 weeks but just because we hadn't necessarily gone on 3 official dates doesn't mean she doesn't know me. But yet then someone could meet a girl and take her out the next three nights that week and then she would sleep with him on the third night (if she is going by the '3rd date' rule). I've seen the girl 9 times in the past 3 weeks where as a girl could see a guy 3 times and know much less about him but have sex with him (according to this rule) that's what I mean when I say it is irrational and that sex should just come natural in the relationship.

I think it's just as irrational to actually count and keep track of your missed opportunities for sex and the extent of "contact" you have had in order to justify why she should feel exactly the same way you do on the subject. Evidently she does not. If you can't handle that, look elsewhere.

You describe this girl's not-putting-out behaviour (which apparently annoys you), and then you assert that women--including her, I assume--will all have sex with a guy after three dates. Has it occurred to you that the woman you're dealing with is an individual who has her own standards about sexuality and having sex?

You're not complaining that women don't put out fast enough. You're complaining that the girl you like won't put out when other women will. Other theoretical women will. Maybe.

Evidently this girl doesn't subscribe to the "magical three-date rule" which you seem to think that all women have. You've also described the rule as irrational. So, do you WANT her to follow it, or do you want her to NOT follow it? It sounds like she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.

You say that sex should follow naturally in a relationship. True. But that doesn't mean that you're both ready at the same time. I'm fairly certain my boyfriend would have been quite willing and ready to have sex with me earlier in the relationship than I was ready for. However, sex when only he was ready would not have been natural. It sounds like you're ready and she's not--but if she's not, it won't be "natural" at all.

In fact, I'm inclined to like a girl less the longer she waits to have sex with me. It's not about the physical act of sex, rather what it represents. I start to lose my interest in her because I feel she is not willing to show me the same level of trust that I show her. My opinion is sex should just come at a natural stage in the relationship, girls withholding from sex for no other reason than 'it hasn't been the right number of dates yet' is just stupid and hurts relationships rather than helps them. But that's just the rational opinion coming from this INTJ male. Interested to see what others views are about this, especially females of any personality type.

I feel sorry for any girl you date who is not quick to jump into the sack. There are many different reasons that a woman might wait for sex. For me, personal attraction and sexual attraction are closely intertwined. I don't want sex with a guy until I reach a certain point of liking and trusting. I would assume that there are other women like me who might have higher or lower "liking and trusting" thresholds. Others have also already mentioned that there are some very strong social stigmas for women who are quick to have sex, and that would likely be a deterrent for many women.

A woman who isn't having sex with you isn't necessarily holding it back because she's counting dates. Maybe she's not having sex with you because she doesn't yet want to have sex with you (cue gasps). It doesn't mean that she won't, only that she doesn't at the moment.

She's not necessarily withholding sex because she's being some sort of manipulator or cocktease. It saddens me a great deal that you would interpret her lack of readiness to have sex with you as some sort of "messing with your head" tactic instead of as a personal inclination.

My boyfriend and I waited 2 months to have sex. That would probably have killed you. For many women, sex can create an emotional bond that can cloud our judgement about a man. I personally can't have sex without getting really attached. Good sex, for me, requires a certain level of emotional vulnerability that I can't get to until I have a strong emotional bond to a man and I feel safe in the relationship.

I don't have sex with strangers. If a girl is having one-night stands, but then making a nice guy wait to have sex, she's playing emotional games, and should be dismissed for that reason alone.

On the other hand, I sincerely cherish my inner slut enough to protect her and only expose that part of myself to a man who's demonstrated that he's emotionally invested in me.

YMMV.

+1

But if she just takes a long time, she's not messing with your head, she's just slower than some to have sex.

catzmeow
06-04-2010, 10:58 AM
But if she just takes a long time, she's not messing with your head, she's just slower than some to have sex.

I also don't think that you can presume that waiting to have sex means that she's not seriously attracted to you. I'm an extremely sexual person by nature, and I have been since I was in my teens. Even though I didn't lose my virginity until I was 20, I was a horny, horny girl. I just realized that horniness, by itself, isn't very satisfying to me. There are levels to sex that you only discover as you get older. Sex within the context of a satisfying emotional relationship is just BETTER. It's freer, more open, less constrained, and you can, frankly, be dirtier in that context (or at least, I can). There is a direct relationship between my level of emotional involvement with a man and my sexual openness.

I simply am not interested in sex that isn't everything that it can be, and that doesn't happen without taking the time to get to know someone.

Also, there is a LOT to be said for the sweetness and the sexiness of moving slowly and letting the anticipation build over time. When you wait, every touch becomes significant, every kiss is more passionate, holding hands is extremely intimate. The first time I even held hands or kissed my boyfriend was on our third date. We were sitting in an oyster bar, talking and eating and drinking, and he was holding my hand, and stroking my fingers softly.

All I could think about was how large and masculine his hands were, and how beautifully muscular his arms were, and imagining how good he was going to look, naked.

And when we kissed, after the date, it was like being struck by lightning.

Way more significant than if we'd rushed into bed on the first or second date.

I think that young guys are always in a hurry to get their cocks wet. But there are serious pleasures to be had by waiting.

Antares
06-04-2010, 11:15 AM
This thread certainly gave me a lot to think about. I see every guy as a prospect for long term relationship, and I would like to have a solid friendship down before going any further. I'm not a very sexual person by nature, and I like to imagine sexual things more than doing them. I'll do it whenever I'm ready, but if he's going to be so traditionally minded as to judge me for it (for something we both consented to; why should he be judged in a kinder light?) and lose interest in me because I'm a "slut", I imagine I would lose all respect for him. Call him a man whore in kind and move on. Just pointing out the irony of the pot calling the kettle black. I don't mind guys who have sex early, but I do mind being held to double standards because of my sex.

SelfMadeBum
06-04-2010, 12:11 PM
Wouldn't the fact that female sexual behaviour is typically* more socially constrained than male sexual behaviour be a possible indication of an underlying cause?


*Yes, I know, you said many cases, not typically. And no, I don't have any figures to back this up, but it certainly seems this way to me.Many societal rules have long now lost touch with the initial reasons that spawned them. SJs in particular, exist to maintain society as it is, so even though the genesis of certain behaviours are rooted to some degree in biological imperatives, the very nature by which society reproduces them, their actual continuation, need not be.

invicta
06-04-2010, 12:24 PM
I'm not that sociable, and didn't have anyone to tell me "the rules" when I was young, so found out from experience that sex too early meant I would be deliberately avoided later. Since I might be interested in more sex in the future I learned to make the guy wait if he had any kind of long term potential.

There was nothing biological about that decision, my biology wants sex just as much as any guy. That realization came from bad experiences with guys. I resent having to go through that BS, in fact.

Kisai
06-04-2010, 02:01 PM
Why do girls wait so long to have sex? It seems like the more a girl likes a guy the longer she waits to have sex with him.

Well, heck. I do this too. Liking someone a lot turns this lecher into a blushing schoolgirl.

I dated someone very cool who was the most open person sexually. I went home with her, but we didn't have sex for a week. We just hung out and enjoyed each others company for a bit. We both knew we were going to have great sex, but there was no need to rush it.

Disillusioned
06-04-2010, 06:19 PM
Unfortunately the vote among men as to whether early sex influences their impression of a woman in a negative way seems to be split down the middle (based on personal enquiries among friends, mostly european college students and graduates, this might strongly vary according to cultural and social factors!!!!). Women know this. So, sadly, even in the f*ing 21st century we have to take this into consideration if we are interested in more than some quick and easy fun.

I understand what you're saying. I guess I just wish girls understood me better (a common complaint of any INTJ)

That being said, in my culture we are talking in terms of dates, days or weeks at the very most (and mostly among the younger)...waiting for months sounds completely otherworldly to most Europeans I´d say and is probably an American thing.

I agree. I have European friends and I've noticed they are generally less sexually constrained than American women. I assume the way they see it is sex is a fun activity, even if things don't work out, whats the harm. It's not like enjoyment is one sided.

American women seem more uptight and way too insecure about being dumped. The only way a relationship will work is if you relax and enjoy yourself. So enjoy the ride, the whole point of a relationship is mutual enjoyment (unless your in it because of insecurity reasons but then you're using him, not the other way around).

That being said....can't wait until I study abroad in Italy!

---------- Post added 06-04-2010 at 02:35 PM ----------

Sex creates feelings of intimacy. These feelings can be false, and make you think you are more into a person than you would be otherwise. Better to wait a bit to have sex until you are sure you really do like them.

Who cares. Jeez, maybe when you get older but I'm 19 and in college. It's not like I'm looking to marry the girl. If I think I like a girl more than I really do (or vice versa) and we find out we're not compatible and break up, what is so bad about that. Learn from the experience. How can you know who is right for you if you never experiment with dating.

By the way, the girl I know from Europe is an ESFP so she may just generally be a more sexual person. I can't personally speak for how 'most' Europeans view relationships. All I know is she seems to look at everything as if it's a fun game. She doesn't look ahead and think about LTR with every guy she meets. If it ends up turning into that, great. If not, well she had some fun and gets to take away the experience.

(Maybe I should be dating ESFP's)

(Maybe I secretly want to be an ESFP)

Distance
06-04-2010, 07:22 PM
Disillusioned, before ascribing motivation to this girl's actions, why not ask her how she feels about casual sex?

kwago
06-04-2010, 07:39 PM
Like LifesEcstacy said, I believe it all comes down to social conditioning, though not all women are products of their environment and live their own lives free from that.

Social norms vary... A LOT. Just look at what was just said about European women - they are not as uptight about sex and religious influence over there. Compare this to the very conservative United States where we see women holding out, denying their urges for the sake of saving face because of something that's been forced down their throats by outside influences their entire lives.

As was also mentioned earlier, men are to blame as well... or are we? The textbook one night stand is just one of those things we see time and time again on television and movies. What is strange is that I have only heard of maybe two instances of this happening to someone in my 28 years on this planet. Is it very common these days? Was it ever that common to begin with? Do we only think it is common because of what we see on TV? I really don't know. Despite all that, the psychological damage has already been done and a lot of us American males, myself included, feel that we have to postpone the inevitable for the sake of wanting to show that we think highly enough of the person to wait. If we don't, our partner may feel like they are just being used even if we really do like them a lot, because of something forced into their head by some sort of outside influence.

Would people still feel the need to postpone sex if the culture didn't ram religious faux pas and tales of one night stands down their throats? Hell, look at how much the birth control pill changes the lives of women when it first came out. They finally were able to control when they could get pregnant and could now have sex for just pleasure. Imagine how long a male would have to wait back then OP :P

hubcap
06-04-2010, 09:21 PM
I think it is age related. As women enter their middle-ages they are less fickle..........in my experience.

Disillusioned
06-04-2010, 09:56 PM
My boyfriend and I waited 2 months to have sex. That would probably have killed you. For many women, sex can create an emotional bond that can cloud our judgement about a man. I personally can't have sex without getting really attached. Good sex, for me, requires a certain level of emotional vulnerability that I can't get to until I have a strong emotional bond to a man and I feel safe in the relationship.

I feel I should clarify my situation. As a INTJ it is hard for me to flirt with girls. I have not had a girlfriend yet simply because I never initiate the situation even when girls flirt with me. As it happens I met this girl and we hooked up. She is really nice and she really likes me but I don't feel like I have the same level of infatuation with her that she does with me. She is still attractive and really nice and I would still be friends with her even if we weren't dating. It's just that I hear of too many INTJ's who just look for that perfect person and are lonely until they meet them. Is it so wrong for me to want to be in a relationship with someone even if they're not the 'one'? And before anyone starts posting stuff like "oh, you're just using her because you want a relationship". I don't see it that way. She likes me and wants a relationship with me. I'm a people pleaser and I'm willing to be in a relationship with her because I believe I can also learn from the experience and it's what she wants. However, (idk, maybe i'm asking for too much) but I want the whole of a relationship and part of that is expressing yourself physically and sexually. It's not even that she hasn't had sex with me but she hasn't even made an attempt to explore my body or allow me to explore hers. Is she ashamed of her body? Has she been brainwashed growing up to think sexual expressions are bad? I honestly don't know what to think but I do believe that even in a relationship where you decide to take it slow in having sex there still needs to be a way to release sexual tension between two people or it just builds up causes anxiety and stress.

And, to your other remark. If it was a girl that I had just as much infatuation with and was really intrigued by, I would have no problem waiting two months to have sex with her. Maybe until I find that person I should look to have relationships with girls of other personality types who are more inclined to be ok with a ST relationship. It's just that this happened unexpectedly and it's not like I have multiple girls lined up with which I can involve myself in a relationship.

I don't have sex with strangers. If a girl is having one-night stands, but then making a nice guy wait to have sex, she's playing emotional games, and should be dismissed for that reason alone.

Welcome to college. Girls do this all the time. Girls want to have sex just a badly as guys and many have lot's of one night stands but then when they find a guy they like, adhere to the 'social expectations' or whatever of making him wait to make him think she doesn't sleep with every guy on the first date. It is deceptive and she is playing emotional games; Even if our society might very well require her to (a claim that is still up for debate in my mind).


I think it's just as irrational to actually count and keep track of your missed opportunities for sex and the extent of "contact" you have had in order to justify why she should feel exactly the same way you do on the subject. Evidently she does not. If you can't handle that, look elsewhere.

For one thing, It was not that I was thinking about sex when we were seeing each other but that was before we both went home for summer. So now, with it being summer and me not being able to see her again until school starts, yah, I am looking back on it and asking questions about different things that she did/didn't do to try to get an understanding of how she feels about me. I'm a guy, I don't understand all the intricacies of women that's why I posted this. I would find it much more helpful if you could post advice rather than try to make me out to be a bad person for simply asking a question and stating my opinion.

You describe this girl's not-putting-out behaviour (which apparently annoys you), and then you assert that women--including her, I assume--will all have sex with a guy after three dates. Has it occurred to you that the woman you're dealing with is an individual who has her own standards about sexuality and having sex?

Actually what I said was

then someone could meet a girl and take her out the next three nights that week and then she would sleep with him on the third night (if she is going by the '3rd date' rule). I've seen the girl 9 times in the past 3 weeks where as a girl could see a guy 3 times and know much less about him but have sex with him (according to this rule) that's what I mean when I say it is irrational and that sex should just come natural in the relationship.

I never said that ALL girls follow the '3 date rule' I was just showing that it is irrational to follow it for those who do.

Evidently this girl doesn't subscribe to the "magical three-date rule" which you seem to think that all women have. You've also described the rule as irrational. So, do you WANT her to follow it, or do you want her to NOT follow it? It sounds like she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.

I'm simply trying to find out and get girls opinions on why she might be withholding from sex. Maybe she is following the '3 date rule' and is just counting formal dates (of which, hanging out at a party together doesn't count) or it could be any number of the other reasons that girls have given on this forum for why they like to wait.

You say that sex should follow naturally in a relationship. True. But that doesn't mean that you're both ready at the same time. I'm fairly certain my boyfriend would have been quite willing and ready to have sex with me earlier in the relationship than I was ready for. However, sex when only he was ready would not have been natural. It sounds like you're ready and she's not--but if she's not, it won't be "natural" at all.

First off, I have already stated that I will never have sex with a girl before she is ready.

Secondly, elaborate on some reasons why a girl would not be ready. Girls and guys want sex just as bad (I'm sure she gets herself off x times a week) I'm too old to fall for the 'girls don't need sex but guys do' line. I know lots of girls that have sex on their mind more than guys. So the question I would like an answer to is if it's past the date where sex is now socially acceptable for the girl to initiate in, what are reasons why she might still refrain from allowing it?

I feel sorry for any girl you date who is not quick to jump into the sack.

I'm sorry you have such a problem understanding that men DON'T understand everything about women and you feel you must bad mouth me and make me seem like I'm self-centered simply because you completely misinterpreted the entire point I was making. And actually the entire reason I started this thread is because I do care about her feelings and am just trying to better understand them.


She's not necessarily withholding sex because she's being some sort of manipulator or cocktease. It saddens me a great deal that you would interpret her lack of readiness to have sex with you as some sort of "messing with your head" tactic instead of as a personal inclination.

Well, actually if a girl wants sex just as much as a guy but she is waiting for another reason (because she doesn't want to seem too eager etc.) then she is "messing with my head". So yes, I am inclined to think that. Though, if I know the reason I might be able to find it more acceptable.

Storm
06-04-2010, 10:02 PM
I don't think anyone actually follows the 3rd date rule. How long have you been seeing her and in what capacity? Have you talked about sex at all? Have you kissed? Cuddled? Been alone? Are you her first boyfriend too?

Ilara
06-04-2010, 10:15 PM
Welcome to college. Girls do this all the time. Girls want to have sex just a badly as guys and many have lot's of one night stands but then when they find a guy they like, adhere to the 'social expectations' or whatever of making him wait to make him think she doesn't sleep with every guy on the first date. It is deceptive and she is playing emotional games; Even if our society might very well require her to (a claim that is still up for debate in my mind).

It does not follow that because it is supposedly common, she is not having sex with you for those reasons.

For one thing, It was not that I was thinking about sex when we were seeing each other but that was before we both went home for summer. So now, with it being summer and me not being able to see her again until school starts, yah, I am looking back on it and asking questions about different things that she did/didn't do to try to get an understanding of how she feels about me.

So you're overthinking. It's pretty simple. If she wants to sleep with you, she will. If she doesn't (for whatever reason), she won't.

I'm a guy, I don't understand all the intricacies of women that's why I posted this. I would find it much more helpful if you could post advice rather than try to make me out to be a bad person for simply asking a question and stating my opinion.

Women aren't any more of an intricate mystery than men are.

I never said that ALL girls follow the '3 date rule' I was just showing that it is irrational to follow it for those who do.

For a lot of those who do, it is rational because those who do this sort of thing tend to be dating/moving in social circles in which this is the social norm. If one cares about one's social position, following the norm is a perfectly rational decision (the judgment call being made in the case you're describing is likely { social standing/respect -including from the guy- > having sex earlier in the relationship} Those who don't move in such a circle or who simply don't care, won't follow this "rule".

I'm simply trying to find out and get girls opinions on why she might be withholding from sex. Maybe she is following the '3 date rule' and is just counting formal dates (of which, hanging out at a party together doesn't count) or it could be any number of the other reasons that girls have given on this forum for why they like to wait.

She's not "withholding", she's 'choosing, for whatever reason, not to have sex with you.' It's not "withholding" unless she has somehow dangled the promise in front of you and then issued some sort of ultimatum ("Buy me roses or you don't get sex!").

First off, I have already stated that I will never have sex with a girl before she is ready.

Yes, but you are assuming that if you are ready, surely she is, too, and therefore she is "withholding" sex with some ulterior/irrational motive.

Secondly, elaborate on some reasons why a girl would not be ready.

I feel sorry for any girl you date who is not quick to jump into the sack. There are many different reasons that a woman might wait for sex. For me, personal attraction and sexual attraction are closely intertwined. I don't want sex with a guy until I reach a certain point of liking and trusting. I would assume that there are other women like me who might have higher or lower "liking and trusting" thresholds. Others have also already mentioned that there are some very strong social stigmas for women who are quick to have sex, and that would likely be a deterrent for many women.

A woman who isn't having sex with you isn't necessarily holding it back because she's counting dates. Maybe she's not having sex with you because she doesn't yet want to have sex with you (cue gasps). It doesn't mean that she won't, only that she doesn't at the moment.

She's not necessarily withholding sex because she's being some sort of manipulator or cocktease. It saddens me a great deal that you would interpret her lack of readiness to have sex with you as some sort of "messing with your head" tactic instead of as a personal inclination.

But if she just takes a long time, she's not messing with your head, she's just slower than some to have sex.

Girls and guys want sex just as bad (I'm sure she gets herself off x times a week) I'm too old to fall for the 'girls don't need sex but guys do' line. I know lots of girls that have sex on their mind more than guys. So the question I would like an answer to is if it's past the date where sex is now socially acceptable for the girl to initiate in, what are reasons why she might still refrain from allowing it?

Wanting sex is different from wanting sex "now", "in this situation", or "with this guy". Sure, women want sex. But it doesn't follow that they always want it or want it without some other things.

'm sorry you have such a problem understanding that men DON'T understand everything about women and you feel you must bad mouth me and make me seem like I'm self-centered simply because you completely misinterpreted the entire point I was making. And actually the entire reason I started this thread is because I do care about her feelings and am just trying to better understand them.

The entire point appeared to be "Please explain what irrational basis she has for not having sex with me; like being too uptight about sex or being too uptight about stupid rules like the three-date one."

You're not just asking why she might not be having sex with you. You're also passing value judgments on the reasons that you perceive for her or other women potentially not having sex with you.

Well, actually if a girl wants sex just as much as a guy but she is waiting for another reason (because she doesn't want to seem too eager etc.) then she is "messing with my head". So yes, I am inclined to think that. Though, if I know the reason I might be able to find it more acceptable.

I don't see why "waiting to want to have sex with somebody" is so complicated. If a woman has a general inclination toward sex but doesn't want it unless she can also maintain her social position or have a committed relationship, I don't see how she's "messing with your head." She doesn't actually want it with you if she's not having it with you. If she prioritizes something above having sex with you, that means that there is something that overrides the desire to have sex, ie she doesn't really want to have sex with you.

Disillusioned
06-04-2010, 10:51 PM
I don't see why "waiting to want to have sex with somebody" is so complicated. If a woman has a general inclination toward sex but doesn't want it unless she can also maintain her social position or have a committed relationship, I don't see how she's "messing with your head".

She wants sex but also wants B and C. Thus, if she can't get B and C then she won't have sex. This seems deceitful and manipulative.

She doesn't actually want it with you if she's not having it with you.

That is completely false. Two people could want sex but both be afraid to initiate it. Or one person can initiate it but the other person be afraid to respond. I think Dasein and Katrin can both attest to this. They have both posted threads and comments about wanting to have sex with a guy (who they are also in a relationship with) But are unable to let him know, or he hasn't taken the hint. That doesn't mean both people don't want sex just that they don't know how to express to one another that they are ready to become more intimate in their relationship.

Just because two people want to have sex doesn't mean they are having sex. i don't know where you got that from.

cannotseethe
06-04-2010, 11:01 PM
She wants sex but also wants B and C. Thus, if she can't get B and C then she won't have sex. This seems deceitful and manipulative.

She wants sex, but only with a man she can trust won't abuse her. Therefore, she's deceptive and manipulative. Right.

catzmeow
06-04-2010, 11:21 PM
She likes me and wants a relationship with me. I'm a people pleaser and I'm willing to be in a relationship with her because I believe I can also learn from the experience and it's what she wants. However, (idk, maybe i'm asking for too much) but I want the whole of a relationship and part of that is expressing yourself physically and sexually. It's not even that she hasn't had sex with me but she hasn't even made an attempt to explore my body or allow me to explore hers. Is she ashamed of her body? Has she been brainwashed growing up to think sexual expressions are bad? I honestly don't know what to think but I do believe that even in a relationship where you decide to take it slow in having sex there still needs to be a way to release sexual tension between two people or it just builds up causes anxiety and stress.

I see no reason why the two of you shouldn't be in a relationship. I wouldn't feel as if every relationship you have when you're 19 has to lead to something serious in order to be worthwhile. As far as why she hasn't been physical with you, I'd make a move on her and kiss her and then see where it goes.

And, to your other remark. If it was a girl that I had just as much infatuation with and was really intrigued by, I would have no problem waiting two months to have sex with her. Maybe until I find that person I should look to have relationships with girls of other personality types who are more inclined to be ok with a ST relationship. It's just that this happened unexpectedly and it's not like I have multiple girls lined up with which I can involve myself in a relationship.

I don't see anything wrong with the situation you've described. Not every relationship has to lead to marriage. Sometimes it just leads to two people being happy briefly and learning something. And that's sufficient for me, but then, I'm an ENFP. We're less demanding. ;)

Welcome to college. Girls do this all the time. Girls want to have sex just a badly as guys and many have lot's of one night stands but then when they find a guy they like, adhere to the 'social expectations' or whatever of making him wait to make him think she doesn't sleep with every guy on the first date. It is deceptive and she is playing emotional games; Even if our society might very well require her to (a claim that is still up for debate in my mind).

I may be 44, but I was in college during the extremely enjoyable 80s before AIDS was a factor in most people's sexual decisions. The biggest thing we worried about in college was getting pregnant. So, I'm familiar with what you describe. Playing emotional games with sex is simply stupid and shouldn't be tolerated, no matter what justification is offered.

FWIW, women are socialized to believe that we shouldn't be sexually aggressive. A lot of girls your age may feel more comfortable if you are the one who initiates physical contact. I don't know if it is game-playing, or just a practical reality.

Beyond that, a lot of women find men being more dominant sexually to be a turn-on. I don't know why this is, I just know it is.

---------- Post added 06-04-2010 at 10:28 PM ----------

She wants sex but also wants B and C. Thus, if she can't get B and C then she won't have sex. This seems deceitful and manipulative.

Let me put it like this. Sex can create great feelings of vulnerability for women. It taps into our emotions, whether we want it to or not. Sexually, most of us are not wired like men. And human bodies are designed with biological/emotional connections. For instance, semen contains mood-altering substances, such as seratonin, that can be absorbed through the vaginal walls and directly into the bloodstream. For women, having sex releases oxytocin, which stimulates a strong emotional connection. We're built like that. We can't just turn those biological/emotional effects off because you want us to fuck like men.

Not only can sex create feelings of vulnerability, for women, sex creates ACtUAL vulnerability. Pregnancy, for instance, is a major issue for us. Even if a woman feels okay with getting an abortion, the emotional and physical ramifications of that are long-lasting. Women are more vulnerable to STDs than men are because of the delicacy of the vaginal tissues.

We have every right to protect ourselves and make sure that sex is physically and emotionally satisfying to us. Get over it. You're not owed sex.

If you don't want to be in a relationship with a girl, and that is her condition for having sex, I'd say that makes your decision pretty easy. This ain't rocket science.

FWIW, cultural influences have had very little impact on my sexual decisions. Pretty much, in my life, if I wanted to have sex, I had sex. But, I realized as I got older that sex simply wasn't satisfying for me without that emotional bond. Newness is completely overrated. Familiarity and longevity is what makes sex satisfying.

Disillusioned
06-05-2010, 12:08 AM
I see no reason why the two of you shouldn't be in a relationship. I wouldn't feel as if every relationship you have when you're 19 has to lead to something serious in order to be worthwhile. As far as why she hasn't been physical with you, I'd make a move on her and kiss her and then see where it goes.

We've made out many times. She stayed over a few nights and we made out for hours+spooned but I havn't even gotten to 3rd base yet and we'd been going out for 3 weeks. Let alone I had barely gotten to 2nd base with her only a few times.

FWIW, women are socialized to believe that we shouldn't be sexually aggressive. A lot of girls your age may feel more comfortable if you are the one who initiates physical contact. I don't know if it is game-playing, or just a practical reality.

Beyond that, a lot of women find men being more dominant sexually to be a turn-on. I don't know why this is, I just know it is.

I tend to be similarly inclined to think that. I am not usually the aggressor in relationships but I try to make more of an effort because I realize she may be shy. Still, she stops me whenever I try to touch her in more intimate places and I try to be sensitive and stay with what she is comfortable with. But it's even hard for me to sense what she is comfortable with with respect to me touching her. So apart from the the whole 'how long for sex thing' I guess my main concern is that she hasn't even allowed me to get completely to second base yet. I guess I'm thinking she may be moving too slow. My main concern is for her because this does not even seem normal among women (from what I understand). So I am just wondering what may be holding her back. Maybe she's a virgin or maybe their is some psychological issue she has to get over.

I don't see anything wrong with the situation you've described. Not every relationship has to lead to marriage. Sometimes it just leads to two people being happy briefly and learning something. And that's sufficient for me, but then, I'm an ENFP. We're less demanding.

Thanks. I don't know why some women are taking such offense by what I'm saying. I think I am being fairly reasonable. Maybe it has more to do with personality type than anything else.

---------- Post added 06-04-2010 at 08:20 PM ----------

She wants sex but also wants B and C. Thus, if she can't get B and C then she won't have sex. This seems deceitful and manipulative.

She wants sex, but only with a man she can trust won't abuse her. Therefore, she's deceptive and manipulative. Right.

I was simply conceding that my statement may not have been thought through thoroughly and I agree that a girl is entitled to withhold sex from a man who is abusive (though she should not be in a relationship with him in the first place).

My line of reasoning stemmed from a girl using sex as a means to get something out of a relationship or 'change' the other person. In this way it is deceitful and manipulative but not if she is simply withholding it until she knows the man won't be abusive. Though it seems if a girl goes into every relationship expected the man to abuse her then she has her own psychological issues she needs to get over.

Synamon
06-05-2010, 12:28 AM
My main concern is for her because this does not even seem normal among women (from what I understand). So I am just wondering what may be holding her back. Maybe she's a virgin or maybe their is some psychological issue she has to get over.

Uh, maybe you should ask her. If you can't even ask her if she's a virgin, then you are not communicating well enough to be considering having sex with this person. Also, you aren't dating a hypothetical normal woman, you are dating a specific woman and sexual activity is variable, average doesn't apply to individuals.

Disillusioned
06-05-2010, 12:41 AM
Uh, maybe you should ask her. If you can't even ask her if she's a virgin, then you are not communicating well enough to be considering having sex with this person. Also, you aren't dating a hypothetical normal woman, you are dating a specific woman and sexual activity is variable, average doesn't apply to individuals.

Good advice. Except it's summer and we live in separate parts of the country so I won't see her until the school year starts again. Or are you suggesting I send her the text:

"Are you a virgin?"

Synamon
06-05-2010, 12:51 AM
Sure. If you are uncomfortable raising the question in person it might be easier to have the conversation online or even over the phone.

Unless sex was all you were after and actually talking to her wasn't part of the "plan".

Storm
06-05-2010, 01:11 AM
You don't have to send it in a text, but I'd assume you'd be communicating regularly with a person you are wanting to have sex with. And, if you're thinking of having sex, you should be asking questions like STDs, birth control methods, etc. Not blindly fumbling in the dark.

Disillusioned
06-05-2010, 01:42 AM
Good advice. Accept it's summer and we live in separate parts of the country so I won't see her until the school year starts again. Or are you suggesting I send her the text:

"Are you a virgin?"

Sure. If you are uncomfortable raising the question in person it might be easier to have the conversation online or even over the phone.

Unless sex was all you were after and actually talking to her wasn't part of the "plan".

That was meant to be sarcastic

I don't know or care if she is a virgin. I am just trying to get to the core reason why she won't go further than 1st base after the 3rd week of us dating each other. I was just throwing that out as one possible suggestion.

OK second base

Storm
06-05-2010, 01:45 AM
That was meant to be sarcastic

I don't know or care if she is a virgin. I am just trying to get to the core reason why she won't go further than 1st base after the 3rd week of us dating each other. I was just throwing that out as one possible suggestion.

OK second base

Look, 3 weeks is nothing. And the only person who knows why is her. You need to talk to her. Flat out ask her how far she's comfortable going.

And, really, you don't care if this is her first time? That just might be good information to have. How are you going to ask more important questions if you can't even ask her that?

Synamon
06-05-2010, 01:53 AM
That was meant to be sarcastic

I don't know or care if she is a virgin. I am just trying to get to the core reason why she won't go further than 1st base after the 3rd week of us dating each other. I was just throwing that out as one possible suggestion.

OK second base
Oh, I see, you weren't really looking for relationship advice at all. You just wanted people to tell you what to do since she won't put out. Sorry, my bad.

Here you go: "Yeah man, women are stuck up bitches and you should dump that ho since you ain't gettin some".

Disillusioned
06-05-2010, 02:00 AM
Look, 3 weeks is nothing. And the only person who knows why is her. You need to talk to her. Flat out ask her how far she's comfortable going.

And, really, you don't care if this is her first time? That just might be good information to have. How are you going to ask more important questions if you can't even ask her that?

I meant that in the sense that some were implying I just wanted sex and even better if she's a virgin. That's not the way I look at it. Of course if I find out she is a virgin I will act accordingly and be understanding but like I said I don't know that she is. it was just a suggestion. Also I don't know if it is appropriate to discuss such matters with her in such an informal way. So I didn't ask her if she was a virgin before I left for summer (mainly because as I have expressed in previous posts I wasn't just thinking about having sex with her when we were seeing each other so the question never crossed my mind). But if I didn't talk about such things when we were seeing each other it seems inappropriate to bring up such questions via text message over summer. Plus that is a great way to give her the impression that I am only interested in sex. Which is not my intention or goal in seeing her (as I've said before it is simply one part of being in a relationship). I am interested in making the whole relationship work.

perefalc
06-05-2010, 02:56 AM
While I understand that many women wait to have sex, I have found that is not the case for me. It's not that i sleep with every guy walking around, but i have never seen the reason to wait.

If two people are mutually attracted to each other and free of other commitments, I dont see why they shouldn't act on it.

Sometimes I feel that it makes me a slut. But then I remind myself that I am not actually to large numbers of guys. If I meet someone I like and things seem to be progressing in a sexual manner, while still being safe, I dont see why it should be restrained. Sometimes this leads to a one night stand, other times to fulfilling relationship.

Disillusioned
06-05-2010, 03:30 AM
While I understand that many women wait to have sex, I have found that is not the case for me. It's not that i sleep with every guy walking around, but i have never seen the reason to wait.

If two people are mutually attracted to each other and free of other commitments, I dont see why they shouldn't act on it.

I share this opinion. I don't see what the big deal about sex is. Some people hold it to be some holiest of holy thing. Sex is just one of many ways people express themselves to one another and makes the other person feel loved and important. As long as you're being safe and using protection I don't see what the harm is in it. It is a natural instinct to want to engage in sex with someone you have feelings for. It's as simple as that.

I understand that everyone has there own opinion about this and can choose to view sex in what ever way they want but I'm glad to see a fellow INTJ holds this same view as me.

GamerGirl
06-05-2010, 04:06 AM
Agreed.
I have read (The female brain by Louann Brizendine) that a female's inital assessment of a male is based on how he smells. The brain subcounciously decodes these chemical signals. The guy's appearance comes into play as well.
Then, of course, a decision needs to made as to what to do in case of positive signals from the brain. It is also mentioned that females tend to wait a bit before having sex.
I am not sure whether there is a correlation between the waiting period and how serious the woman is.

Just for conversation sake. I've been "with" my guy for 10 months. We're not even in the same country right now, and neither of us have moved toward even cyber sex. We've talked about it, but haven't pushed the issue. Other guys have broached it with me, but not this one, and I have only initiated the conversation, not the act. He explained that he wanted me to make the first move. I'd rather wait until we can actually be together, for the first time.

I believe that the initial assessment is based on pheromones, not actual scent. Pheromones hint at the biological makeup of the individual. In fact, men choose based on pheromones, too, and the purpose is to weed out mates that are too biologically similar to us.

scryios
06-05-2010, 07:32 AM
This whole situation is very confusing. You make claims you are a nice guy, yet you make it painfully clear

you have motives and goals in this relationship. I'm not going to say that this is bad but it certainly doesn't fit the nice guy mold.


I have not had a girlfriend yet simply because I never initiate the situation even when girls flirt with

me.


In fact, I'm inclined to like a girl less the longer she waits to have sex with me. It's not about the

physical act of sex, rather what it represents. I start to lose my interest in her because I feel she is

not willing to show me the same level of trust that I show her.

Again, this confuses me. So this will be your first relationship right? Well, the first one that's official on the boyfriend/girlfriend paper. The more I think about this, the more I see this as a terrible start to a relationship. Relationships aren't a tool to get sex. If you're genuinely concerned about her interests, wait a month or two to see if she initiates or makes it painfully clear she wants this. If this doesn't occur, simply ask her: "Why haven't we had sex yet?"


I also wouldn't associate sex with trust. Just because I can and am willing to perform sex, definitely doesn't mean I trust somebody. You could be with somebody for months before you ever start to really trust them.

Storm
06-05-2010, 11:19 AM
I share this opinion. I don't see what the big deal about sex is. Some people hold it to be some holiest of holy thing. Sex is just one of many ways people express themselves to one another and makes the other person feel loved and important. As long as you're being safe and using protection I don't see what the harm is in it. It is a natural instinct to want to engage in sex with someone you have feelings for. It's as simple as that.

I understand that everyone has there own opinion about this and can choose to view sex in what ever way they want but I'm glad to see a fellow INTJ holds this same view as me.

So is your goal here to just collect verification that you are justified in your view? Scyios is right, this is your very first relationship, and while you claim otherwise, you are mainly concerned about sex. Lesson number 1 through 3 in relationships:


Communicate
Communicate
Communicate

brdmadgrl82
06-05-2010, 11:42 AM
I don't know if anyone wrote this already or not but I think some girls wait so long because they have to figure out "hmmm if I have sex with this guy am I really ready to have a baby with him". I did watch a discovery show on the science of sex and they also talked about how women are more selective of their mates and don't settle as easy...so if they do decide to have sex you must really be special ;) Well there are some who do have sex early but I'm sure there are other self-esteme issues in that.

perefalc
06-05-2010, 01:21 PM
I did watch a discovery show on the science of sex and they also talked about how women are more selective of their mates and don't settle as easy...so if they do decide to have sex you must really be special ;)

Exactly. I am very picky about the guys I sleep with. But once I decide that I would sleep with a guy, i dont stop it.

I believe that sex is part of an adult relationship. It brings two people closer. That being said, relationships can work out without sex, as long as they are in agreement about it.

So definitely agreeing with Storm's advice about communication.

You also have to ask yourself how important sex is to you. If you are in this to just have sex and she isn't ready, maybe you should find someone else.

Feral
06-05-2010, 01:55 PM
I've only been with 3 guys, and the one thing that all 3 of them had in common, is that from the moment I met them, within seconds, I knew what I'd be doing with them later.

The first one, I waited a year. I was a virgin, and I had very strict guidelines for myself.

The second one, I knew him for a few months, and then we skipped dating and hopped right into the sack. I've been with him for about 6 years now.

I did divorce the second one for about a year though, and in that year, came number 3. We met in an airport, and that familiar knowing was there, and it wasn't even hours before... nature took it's course...

These all ended up turning into long term, serious relationships. Even the one that I was sure was just going to be a one-night stand, ended up being with him for almost a year.

I don't regret any of these relationships. They were all great in their own ways, and I certainly don't regret having sex with any of them.

During my divorce, and after I broke up from #3, I did a little bit of casual dating, but I never slept with any of them. Just didn't have that same pull.

Chryzzie
06-05-2010, 03:25 PM
Why do girls wait so long to have sex? It seems like the more a girl likes a guy the longer she waits to have sex with him.


I think girls take their time because they value the other person, they want to know that person better, not physically but emotionally, there is a huge difference between getting to know a person through sex and simply sitting down and talking. You're an INTJ, deep conversation is like oxygen ;)


I feel she is not willing to show me the same level of trust that I show her.


Trust is different for everyone, she could be the type that wont let her guard down that early on in a dating stage. Trust for her could mean months or years.
Who knows? *shrug* The inner self can be complicated, quite complicated and she needs protection. ;)

Personally, I would be really cautious (or just dump them) of men who try to have sex early, especially on the dating stage. It's not about the number of dates, its about the desire and the need to know if two people are really genuinely interested in one another and want to go to the next level (Relationship). I think a few dates is not enough to know that, I'd give it months.

Some women developed an emotional attachment to a guy if they have sex with a guy, they feel that they are now tied to the guy. Again, its all about protecting herself.

Most girls think "Why the hell would I have sex with a guy whom I don't see a possible future with? What's the point?"

Disillusioned
06-05-2010, 08:19 PM
In fact, I'm inclined to like a girl less the longer she waits to have sex with me. It's not about the physical act of sex, rather what it represents. I start to lose my interest in her because I feel she is not willing to show me the same level of trust that I show her.

Again, this confuses me. So this will be your first relationship right? Well, the first one that's official on the boyfriend/girlfriend paper. The more I think about this, the more I see this as a terrible start to a relationship. Relationships aren't a tool to get sex. If you're genuinely concerned about her interests, wait a month or two to see if she initiates or makes it painfully clear she wants this. If this doesn't occur, simply ask her: "Why haven't we had sex yet?"

I don't see where I ever said I started the relationship based on sex. What I did say was

For one thing, It was not that I was thinking about sex when we were seeing each other but that was before we both went home for summer. So now, with it being summer and me not being able to see her again until school starts, yah, I am looking back on it and asking questions about different things that she did/didn't do to try to get an understanding of how she feels about me. I'm a guy, I don't understand all the intricacies of women that's why I posted this.

And I'm not going to see her again for another two months. So, I don't see how me bringing up the question of sex on this forum shows that my reason for being in the relationship is based on sex. I'm not going to have sex for two more months anyways. If I was so eager to have sex rather than a relationship then I would have broken off the relationship when summer started and be trying to score right now with some slut that doesn't give a rats ass about me. The reason I brought this topic up now is so I can get a woman's point of view so I know how I should approach the situation once the school year starts and we start seeing each other again.

The reason for my concern about the relationship is this

It's even hard for me to sense what she is comfortable with with respect to me touching her. So apart from the the whole 'how long for sex thing' I guess my concern is that she hasn't even allowed me to get completely to second base yet. I guess I'm thinking she may be moving too slow.

The fact that after seeing each other for 3 weeks she is still slow in showing me affection is of concern to me. I expect affection to progress as the relationship does. I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation. Too much sexual tension can hurt a relationship and if there is no way to release that sexual tension you will start to resent the other person no matter how much you like them (this has been proven in psychology). An anonymous poll carried out by msn.match.com among 5,237 singles showed that 12.74% of people engage in sex on the first date, 24.94% on the second, 21.48% on the third, 34.18% fourth or more and 6.66% after marriage (feel free to look this up). So while I understand that not every girl is the same and some choose to wait longer to have sex it still seems like she is moving way slower than most (1st, 2nd, 3rd, sex; Me = < 2nd). Over 50% of girls have sex by the 3rd date and I'm sure that of the 34.18% that have sex on the fourth date or later many have surely gotten past 2nd base after 3 weeks (note: this statistic shows that most women do not adhere to the '3 date rule' but it is still a well known concept). Maybe she does not share the same desire to show she the level of affection I expect at this point in a relationship. Maybe we're not compatible (And I will bring up these concerns with her in person when I next see her). But don't claim that I am only in the relationship for sex when you don't know all the facts, especially when I have already stated this many times through out the thread.

you make it painfully clear you have motives and goals in this relationship. I'm not going to say that this is bad but it certainly doesn't fit the nice guy mold.

So having the goal in a relationship to find someone who you I am compatible with makes me a bad person. So I guess a girl having the goal in a relationship to be with a guy who won't abuse her makes her a bad person too (as cannotseethe pointed out). Of course people have goals in a relationship, unless they are just in the relationship for the sake being in one or because of emotional insecurity (but then they still have the goal of having the other person validate them emotionally). What exactly fits the 'nice guy mold' in your opinion?

I also wouldn't associate sex with trust. Just because I can and am willing to perform sex, definitely doesn't mean I trust somebody. You could be with somebody for months before you ever start to really trust them.

A valid point. I guess the root of my point about trust is not necessarily about sex but rather a certain level of affection to be shown in general really. For instance, If she had simply let me be a little more intimate with her by that stage in the relationship (get to 2nd base at least) and wanted to be more intimate with me as well it would have shown me that she actually trusts me more after 3 weeks than she did the first day we met. It would also be a way to release sexual tension between us and show me that the relationship is making progress but still allow me to respect her choice to wait on having sex.

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 04:22 PM ----------

I think girls take their time because they value the other person, they want to know that person better, not physically but emotionally, there is a huge difference between getting to know a person through sex and simply sitting down and talking. You're an INTJ, deep conversation is like oxygen

You stated that very rationally.

I can see what you're saying. Thanks for the input

Storm
06-05-2010, 09:19 PM
The fact that after seeing each other for 3 weeks she is still slow in showing me affection is of concern to me. I expect affection to progress as the relationship does. I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation. Too much sexual tension can hurt a relationship and if there is no way to release that sexual tension you will start to resent the other person no matter how much you like them (this has been proven in psychology). An anonymous poll carried out by msn.match.com among 5,237 singles showed that 12.74% of people engage in sex on the first date, 24.94% on the second, 21.48% on the third, 34.18% fourth or more and 6.66% after marriage (feel free to look this up). So while I understand that not every girl is the same and some choose to wait longer to have sex it still seems like she is moving way slower than most (1st, 2nd, 3rd, sex; Me = < 2nd). Over 50% of girls have sex by the 3rd date and I'm sure that of the 34.18% that have sex on the fourth date or later many have surely gotten past 2nd base after 3 weeks (note: this statistic shows that most women do not adhere to the '3 date rule' but it is still a well known concept). Maybe she does not share the same desire to show she the level of affection I expect at this point in a relationship. Maybe we're not compatible (And I will bring up these concerns with her in person when I next see her). But don't claim that I am only in the relationship for sex when you don't know all the facts, especially when I have already stated this many times through out the thread.

Internet polls are full of selection bias and are crap. They have little likelihood of conforming with reality. They aren't going to tell you why this particular woman isn't jumping your bones after 3 weeks. You know who can tell you that? She can. Actually being her. Why so much reluctance to talk to her? Are you not talking to her over the summer? Cause if not, that's a much worse sign than no sex.

The fact that you refer to women who have sex outside relationship as "sluts" is quite telling as to your views on sex.

And no matter how many times you rationalize it, expecting sex from a 19 year old after 3 weeks IS unreasonable. Heck, depending on the person, it could be unreasonable for a 45 year old. Especially since you were parting for 2 months. She probably didn't want to start a relationship (and she, and you apparently, see sex as the start to a relationship) before such a long break.

Gobbbler
06-05-2010, 10:28 PM
Internet polls are full of selection bias and are crap. They have little likelihood of conforming with reality. They aren't going to tell you why this particular woman isn't jumping your bones after 3 weeks. You know who can tell you that? She can. Actually being her. Why so much reluctance to talk to her? Are you not talking to her over the summer? Cause if not, that's a much worse sign than no sex.
Yes. Also, I cannot find the poll you refer to so that I can examine the wording used, but those numbers are highly unlikely to mean that the person always has sex on that # of date. Most likely it just means that they will as a rule or practice not do it before then. It doesn't mean that they are like, "yeah 3rd date, time to jump him". It varies based on the dynamic. Sometimes the physical pull is stronger, sometimes they're not sure about the guy, sometimes the mood or time of the month comes into play. Sometimes the guy is just really hot whereas other times they are more into his personality. Also, some guys are definitely better about putting a woman in the mood (so to speak) and having sex earlier. Women are not men who are just always up for sex.

And no matter how many times you rationalize it, expecting sex from a 19 year old after 3 weeks IS unreasonable. Heck, depending on the person, it could be unreasonable for a 45 year old. Especially since you were parting for 2 months. She probably didn't want to start a relationship (and she, and you apparently, see sex as the start to a relationship) before such a long break.
Very true. Does your poll break down by age? Because my experience is that as women age they slowly lose their inhibitions (or better know what they want/better judge a guy). It is very possible that an even higher % of older women have sex by date X, but if you polled only 19year olds, you may get a lot lower numbers.

3 weeks for any age isn't that long, especially depending on the amount of actual time spent together. Basically, you (OP) sound overeager.

Disillusioned
06-06-2010, 12:23 AM
Internet polls are full of selection bias and are crap. They have little likelihood of conforming with reality. They aren't going to tell you why this particular woman isn't jumping your bones after 3 weeks. You know who can tell you that? She can.

I'm only referring to the poll to get an understanding of when girls 'generally' become more intimate in relationships. I already stated in my previous post that this poll does not necessarily reflect the position of this specific girl.

An anonymous poll carried out by msn.match.com among 5,237 singles showed that 12.74% of people engage in sex on the first date, 24.94% on the second, 21.48% on the third, 34.18% fourth or more and 6.66% after marriage (feel free to look this up). So while I understand that not every girl is the same and some choose to wait longer to have sex it still seems like she is moving way slower than most (1st, 2nd, 3rd, sex; Me = < 2nd). Over 50% of girls have sex by the 3rd date and I'm sure that of the 34.18% that have sex on the fourth date or later many have surely gotten past 2nd base after 3 weeks

furthermore, I also mentioned that

I will bring up these concerns with her in person when I next see her

no matter how many times you rationalize it, expecting sex from a 19 year old after 3 weeks IS unreasonable. Heck, depending on the person, it could be unreasonable for a 45 year old. Especially since you were parting for 2 months. She probably didn't want to start a relationship (and she, and you apparently, see sex as the start to a relationship) before such a long break.

Actually no. Where did I say I expected sex after 3 weeks. The poll happened to be about when girls have sex in a relationship. In regards to my relationship, I specified that my concern was that we hadn't even gotten past first base yet and that does not seem normal. Considering that over 50% of girls have sex by the third date and sex equals 4th base.The fact that after 3 weeks we hadn't even made it to 2nd base seems unusual to me. I also stated...

I guess the root of my point about trust is not necessarily about sex but rather a certain level of affection to be shown in general really. For instance, If she had simply let me be a little more intimate with her by that stage in the relationship (get to 2nd base at least) and wanted to be more intimate with me as well it would have shown me that she actually trusts me more after 3 weeks than she did the first day we met. It would also be a way to release sexual tension between us and show me that the relationship is making progress but still allow me to respect her choice to wait on having sex.

The fact that you refer to women who have sex outside relationship as "sluts" is quite telling as to your views on sex.

Actually what I said was

I'm not going to see her again for another two months. So, I don't see how me bringing up the question of sex on this forum shows that my reason for being in the relationship is based on sex. I'm not going to have sex for two more months anyways. If I was so eager to have sex rather than a relationship then I would have broken off the relationship when summer started and be trying to score right now with some slut that doesn't give a rats ass about me.

I never implied that any woman who has sex outside of a relationship is a slut. I just said that if all I cared about was sex then I would probably be out right now trying to get it from a slut. Slut referring to 'One who engages in sexual activity with a large number of persons, occasionally simultaneously' according to urban dictionary. the fact that you percieved this to mean 'any woman who has sex outside a relationship' tells more about your views than mine.

Yes. Also, I cannot find the poll you refer to so that I can examine the wording used.

It is cited on wikipedia as well as in many articles which tells me either not many polls have been done on this or that this is the most extensive one. Here are a few links

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Gobbbler
06-06-2010, 01:25 AM
Here's the poll cited by Disillusioned:

We asked 5,237 singles, “How many dates does it take before you become intimate?” And we even admonished them to be honest because it was an anonymous poll. The results show the old moral fiber getting stretched in two directions:
12.74% — One: I throw caution to the wind.
24.94% — Two: I've made up my mind after the first date.
21.48% — Three: If it doesn't happen now, it won't happen at all.
34.18% — Four or more: I'm not jumping into anything.
6.66% — Other: We're not going there until I get a ring.

"Intimate" does not necessarily mean sex, but for Disillusioned's situation (questioning lack of general progression in intimacy) it still argues something is off - if you don't consider other factors.

My first relationship came when I was 19. As an INTX guy, I was very unsure of myself and progressed very slowly. I think that by 3 weeks I didn't have the nerve for much more than just a simple single goodbye kiss on the lips - and rarely even that. Mainly just cuddling and clothed tickling. So a 19 year old girl in a relationship with a guy in his first relationship who probably isn't good about pushing the right buttons... I think it isn't that bizarre.

---------- Post added 06-06-2010 at 12:27 AM ----------

Oh, I forgot. Thanks for posting the links Disillusioned. Here's the original article:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

lostchaos
06-06-2010, 03:44 AM
What makes you think girls wait so long to have sex? Based off my subjective experience I'm forced to say that many girls don't wait to have sex. However, assuming that I'm wrong or bias, the second part of my answer would be because they can.

Maybe your impression is warped because girls won't have sex with you. And it's no surprise all things considered. My personal theory is that 5% of the male population is responsible for 95% of all sexual encounters experienced by women. I say this because I know many guys whose sexual encounters amount to zero, and other guys whose encounters number in the hundreds of thousands. Bottom line? Sex appeal: You either have it or you don't.

Storm
06-06-2010, 10:54 AM
I'm only referring to the poll to get an understanding of when girls 'generally' become more intimate in relationships. I already stated in my previous post that this poll does not necessarily reflect the position of this specific girl.

You misunderstand, the poll is unreliable and therefore tells you nothing. Therefore, you can NOT use it to say that 50% of girls have sex after the 2nd date because 50% is NOT a reliable number. Gobbler showed too that the poll asked about "intimacy" not "sex" - words that can mean very different things. Even further, it does not tell you if it's normal for a 19 year old woman new to dating would go 50%. The poll tells you nothing and gives you no enlightenment as to whether or not this girl likes you or not.

katrin
06-06-2010, 11:33 AM
We've made out many times. She stayed over a few nights and we made out for hours+spooned but I havn't even gotten to 3rd base yet and we'd been going out for 3 weeks. Let alone I had barely gotten to 2nd base with her only a few times....

I was simply conceding that my statement may not have been thought through thoroughly and I agree that a girl is entitled to withhold sex from a man who is abusive (though she should not be in a relationship with him in the first place).

My line of reasoning stemmed from a girl using sex as a means to get something out of a relationship or 'change' the other person. In this way it is deceitful and manipulative but not if she is simply withholding it until she knows the man won't be abusive. Though it seems if a girl goes into every relationship expected the man to abuse her then she has her own psychological issues she needs to get over.

Hmmm. Disillusioned, I got the impression that cannotseethe was referring to the girl needing to be sure that you aren't abusing her trust rather than needing to be sure you won't physically abuse her. Well, maybe that's not what he meant but I would say that. The girl just maybe needs to be more certain of your intentions toward her or your feelings for her or something like that. Basically what Dasein said.

I understand where this girl may be coming from. For me, there are a lot of guys I think are hot or attractive and sometimes I end up dating them. But the script that tends to play through my brain is "Wow, he's hot. I would totally do him...under the right circumstances."

Sometimes I don't take the time to think "under the right circumstances" but it's always implied because I simply do not sleep with, or try to sleep with, every man I am attracted to even if I am dating the guy and making out with/spooning with him and all that.

Many factors influence a decision to have sex with someone. It may be that this girl senses she has a different attitude toward sex than you do (maybe she wants to wait for real intimacy before doing the deed) and so she's holding back. Maybe she's not sure she really has a mind/heart/body connection with you and she wants all three types of connection before having sex.

For your part, you have to decide if she means enough to you for you to wait for her to decide. If not, you need to break up and find someone who shares your view that sex is a fun, natural thing to do and not a big deal. There are girls like that out there. ;)

Edit: When I said "under the right circumstances", Disillusioned, I should've pointed out that the right circumstances vary depending on how I feel about the person I am considering having sex with. There are no absolute right circumstances, such as the "3 date rule." As for me, I am more inclined to have sex early with someone I don't care about than someone I do.

Disillusioned
06-07-2010, 03:34 AM
Here's the poll cited by Disillusioned:

We asked 5,237 singles, “How many dates does it take before you become intimate?” And we even admonished them to be honest because it was an anonymous poll. The results show the old moral fiber getting stretched in two directions:
12.74% — One: I throw caution to the wind.
24.94% — Two: I've made up my mind after the first date.
21.48% — Three: If it doesn't happen now, it won't happen at all.
34.18% — Four or more: I'm not jumping into anything.
6.66% — Other: We're not going there until I get a ring.

"Intimate" does not necessarily mean sex, but for Disillusioned's situation (questioning lack of general progression in intimacy) it still argues something is off - if you don't consider other factors.

This is the point I was trying to get at. By the way, thanks Gobbbler for posting the actual poll. My response was already long enough without including the entire poll for people to refer to but I guess it does make things a little more clear for others.

My first relationship came when I was 19. As an INTX guy, I was very unsure of myself and progressed very slowly. I think that by 3 weeks I didn't have the nerve for much more than just a simple single goodbye kiss on the lips - and rarely even that. Mainly just cuddling and clothed tickling. So a 19 year old girl in a relationship with a guy in his first relationship who probably isn't good about pushing the right buttons... I think it isn't that bizarre.

Ya, I probably would have been exactly the same way if I were dating a girl back when I was in high school. But I'm almost 20 (about one more week) and also I think our situations are a bit different. For instance, if say I had met a girl and we started hanging out together with friends and then hanging out alone I would be nervous to try to kiss her and even just a goodnight kiss would definitely make my entire day (this in fact happened a few times in high school, I was just too nervous to ever kiss the girl. So your point is well taken [and proven]). However, my relationship started with us making out the first night we met so in this situation I was looking for a little more than just making out after 3 weeks. Again this falls back on my whole 'progression in the relationship' thing. If things don't progress or change in a relationship it starts to get stagnant and causes either too much sexual tension or not enough (which can both be harmful to the inner workings of a relationship).

In response to the second bolded part, If I were dating an extroverted girl you're right, I would probably wait for her to make the initial move. But since this girl is clearly introverted and maybe even shy (note that shy and introverted are NOT the same thing even though many people equate them as such when they don't understand the inner workings of introverted people) I have been much more engaging than I normally would (but still less than any extrovert). The thing is, i guess in this situation the sexual tension, for me at least, is too high. This is because we kiss and cuddle just about every time we see each other but then when things start getting really heated up and I try for instance, to go to second base, she withdraws or brushes off my attempt and continues making out. This is frustrating for me cuz my sex drive keeps going up and down and is not met with satisfaction (i.e. going a little further, just a little is all that is needed to keep me satisfied). Just for reference, something that would likely cause too little sexual tension would be the other person in the relationship not making time to see you or something (this is not the case in my situation, we hangout quite often if neither of us have class or other obligations - this was before summer of course). Like I have said before, too little or too much sexual tension is bad for a relationship because it can lead to resentment even if you really like the person.

So, what do I mean by progression as a way to make sure there is not too much or too little sexual tension.

If you start with flirting and hanging out with a group then this should lead to -> hanging out alone -> holding hands -> first kiss -> etc.

If you start by making out then this should lead to -> embracing while making out -> cuddling -> 2nd base -> 3rd base -> sex

Just some examples of steps of progression. My case would be the latter.

It does not necessarily have to go in that order just that progression needs to occur within an acceptable range of time (acceptable for who? Both people involved in the relationship. Hopefully both peoples idea of 'acceptable range' overlap at some point) If person A's acceptable range of time ends before person B's acceptable range of time even begins then this = sexual tension.

Didn't originally plan on getting this scientific about it but this is essentially my view on the matter

We basically started out by making out and cuddling from day 1 so 3 weeks later and still not 2nd base = progression is not moving fast enough in my opinion. Thus, sexual tension.


What makes you think girls wait so long to have sex? Based off my subjective experience I'm forced to say that many girls don't wait to have sex. However, assuming that I'm wrong or bias, the second part of my answer would be because they can.

My thread title was not meant to imply that all girls wait a long time to have sex. Just that I wanted to get feedback and hear reasons why girls might wait a long time for those of them that do. I know many girls who have sex early on in relationships and don't view it as that big of a deal (I just havn't been in a relationship with any of these girls yet).

LifesEcstasy
06-07-2010, 05:28 AM
My thread title was not meant to imply that all girls wait a long time to have sex. Just that I wanted to get feedback and hear reasons why girls might wait a long time for those of them that do. I know many girls who have sex early on in relationships and don't view it as that big of a deal (I just havn't been in a relationship with any of these girls yet).

Well ok now the question is clearer here is my answer...

Many girls, myself included will have made up our minds about sex or not by the end of the first fun outing together. As per your poll. However unless we have either a high level of trust in you, or don't care either way if you ever speak to us again, sex will likely be deferred until the emotional risk of rejection is lower.

What determines the level of emotional risk? How much we want to be in a long term relationship with you versus how we think you might view us for having sex. A combination of our own motivations in the relationship and your perceived level of social conditioning (how likely you might be to have a negative attitude towards girl who has sex early on).

As I got older and more mature the level of emotional risk for me has declined. I have learned how to shield myself from the hurt of rejection and I'm also better at judging how socially conditioned a man might be. I tend not to date highly socially conditioned individuals anyway. Most guys I have fun with have demonstrated a certain degree of independent thinking. I'm also well past the desire to get married and have children, so that's not a motivation for me in relationships. Therefore I can afford to take greater risks of rejection.

For a younger woman however with less certain sense of internal value and perhaps a higher motivation to find a husband the emotional risk will be quite high. So it's very likely she will put off having sex until she is very sure you will invest in a long term relationship with her.