INTJ becoming ENTJ

[AdrianA]

Hi guys!

I've been lurking in this forum for a while now. I found it thoroughly fascinatiing that so many other people are having the same troubles that I have.

I don't think I need to let you all know about my childhood social life etc. as I think all of you INTJs out there already have a slight idea on how they are.

Oh and I do apologised if my english sounds a little bit weird and strange because English is my first language. I particularly don't like grammar much as I don't think it makes perfect sense. But that's just me.

Now the reason I'm posting here today is firstly, I need to up my post count so I can see your links images etc :)

Second reason for posting is I need to know what you guys think with INTJ becoming more and more ENTJ.

I am currently a business student. I discovered my type 2 or 3 years ago and finally found out why I can't relate with people as well as my other relatives friends etc. Its like a big mystery being solved. Even my parents sometimes don't understand me. However, now that I'm nearing in completing my accounting degree, I find it more and more necessary to be extrovert, or at least pretend to be extrovert, to survive and flourish in the business world. Contacts is key to success in the business world as they say.

For the past year and a half, I've been forcing myself to social situations to improve my social skills. I think I"ve done quite well and have made lots of friends in the 1 year and a half compared to the 20 years before. However, the problems I'm having now is that I seem to talk too much in social situations. If I am with a group of friends, or a group of strangers, I will be the first one to speak up and try to relax or more likely "break the ice". Then I'll go on and on until I think I found myself a little bit overbearing.

Also, do you guys have problems with arrogance? I found confidence and arrogance to be quite a thin line. I feel more confident now that I'm working on my extroverted side but in the back of my mind, I keep on questioned myself whether does this make me appear arrogant to outsiders?

Anyway, I hope you can give me some feedback on this and if not, at least I will have 1 post count less to achieving my objective. :P

[Homini Lupus]

I don't think that's becoming extroverted. It's just adapting to the outside world. I do the same since I study political science and sometimes I have to work in pairs. The approach may look like extroverted but you know what burns within your mind. And you see by the stares you are given how you differ from the herd.

Anyway, INTJ is a description, not a religion. I noticed that difference in my experience, but I don't really care if a person is E or I.

[merid]

I agree with Homini Lupus. Just because you are getting better at social interactions doesn't mean that you are changing type. My best friend is an ENTJ and I can say that we are both as confident in a group, but inside our thoughts are different.

I personally have somewhat of a problem with arrogance. I don't see myself as arrogant but a lot of the people I work with say that I can be abrupt if I know I am right. Call it what you will but I think arrogant is just a label that others apply because they don't understand confidence.

[Flamethrower]

Actually I seemed more "I" when I was a child (because I was very shy) and people would have described me as introverted. But I asked some friends recently what they think I am and they all said extraverted. Of all the personality types I relate best to INTPs, ENTJs and INTJs. And because I consider myself only a mild ENTJ I can see parts of all those descriptions in myself. I guess the big deciding factor is my absolute obsession with business and the fact I insist on running my own business too. So I think of myself as primarily an entreprenuer and secondly as a scientist type.

[raconteur213]

As I see it, we are "I" naturally. To succeed in the business world, you must be "E". Meet and greets are part of doing business.

At work, most would claim me to be an extrovert. I am very outgoing because I have to be. The difference is that I am always using this as a strategy. I never put on a public "face" unless I have a purpose behind it.

This ability to 'act' like an "E" is much different from becoming an "E". But as I said before, most would wrongly type me an "E".

Life is a chess game.

[Szarra]

This ability to 'act' like an "E" is much different from becoming an "E".

I whole-heartedly agree with that.

I was a theatre major in college. I loved creating the sets and doing generally anything backstage. I went to a small college and because there just weren't enough people, I often found myself onstage as well. I did enjoy the challenge of "putting on a new personsae" but really didn't care for people coming up to me off-stage to shake hands, discuss the play or what-have-you. To deal with that, I simply turned on the acting skills when I was around people. It wasn't until I was finally home that I could actually relax and "be me".
So, if you want to appear more out-going to those around you, you might consider taking acting and/or speech classes. For business, I can see the speech classes as being more valuable, since it will help you to give presentations. For socializing, the acting may be the better way to go.

[Flamethrower]

As I see it, we are "I" naturally. To succeed in the business world, you must be "E". Meet and greets are part of doing business.

Yes, the better your people skills are the easier things are in business. Having great people skills is something you can learn but at the end of the day you have to genuinely like meeting people otherwise they can see through any act. I am really lucky because I just naturally find people really interesting so I don't have to pretend to be friendly. That said I usually get nervous when making business contacts because you don't want to get things wrong!

I was a theatre major in college. I loved creating the sets and doing generally anything backstage. I went to a small college and because there just weren't enough people, I often found myself onstage as well. I did enjoy the challenge of "putting on a new personsae" but really didn't care for people coming up to me off-stage to shake hands, discuss the play or what-have-you. To deal with that, I simply turned on the acting skills when I was around people. It wasn't until I was finally home that I could actually relax and "be me".

I am a musician and I find getting up in front of a crowd doesn't bother me at all (unless I have to do public speaking because I often am not sure what exactly I am going to say!) I normally get energized by playing a gig, and then am perfectly happy to talk to people about it afterwards and then I just want to play another gig and never go home!

[raconteur213]

Yes, the better your people skills are the easier things are in business. Having great people skills is something you can learn but at the end of the day you have to genuinely like meeting people otherwise they can see through any act. I am really lucky because I just naturally find people really interesting so I don't have to pretend to be friendly. That said I usually get nervous when making business contacts because you don't want to get things wrong!



I am a musician and I find getting up in front of a crowd doesn't bother me at all (unless I have to do public speaking because I often am not sure what exactly I am going to say!) I normally get energized by playing a gig, and then am perfectly happy to talk to people about it afterwards and then I just want to play another gig and never go home!

I follow your logic; however, I'd be a liar if I didn't say that I often put on a "face" for public presentation. I have to give briefings in my job weekly. Everyone says I am a funny guy and very friendly...they constantly say good things and treat me like a personal friend.

...The truth is, I don't really like most of them. This is evident by my lack of social involvement outside of the office. It is the "INTJ Lie" and it is tragic that we must use it so often.

[bebegirl]

I have the same situation at my job; people think I am funny, etc. but I don't even go to lunch with them....I wouldn't say it's tragic that we have to do it, I'd say it is kind vs. saying what we really think of them and hurting a lot of feelings for no good reason other than disinterest.

[raconteur213]

I have the same situation at my job; people think I am funny, etc. but I don't even go to lunch with them....I wouldn't say it's tragic that we have to do it, I'd say it is kind vs. saying what we really think of them and hurting a lot of feelings for no good reason other than disinterest.

I say tragic, because I really hate having to lie to myself. However, you are right. I tend to not take out my wrath out on the innocent.

[MPG]

I am really enjoying this fourm. I am in sales & marketing so obviously people skills are important to being successful.

When I do my job, (and in social situations if it strikes me) I can turn on my outgoing side. And just like a number of comments from above I am good at it. (intj confidence or arrogance?) But I do not nessecarily like or enjoy the people I work with or sell to. So I do sometimes question if I am being "true" to myself.

When I did an on-line test I actually was 50-50 I & E. But I know I am much more naturally I inclinded, because if I can avoid social situations, I do. I get enough of people at work so I like time to myself.

[Flamethrower]

When I did an on-line test I actually was 50-50 I & E. But I know I am much more naturally I inclinded, because if I can avoid social situations, I do. I get enough of people at work so I like time to myself.

This seems to be a common theme on here, people being 50-50 I & E. I notice INTPs never seem to have this problem as much. They seem so much more certain of their introversion!

[fINTiP]

I am an INTP, and I actually find myself very much on this crux. I am too young (18) to encounter office situations, but when friends hear me mention INTP or myers briggs, etc, several (most?) are kind of shocked to find I am considered introverted.

It's odd, though. You all go about it by simple deception and manipulation. I have just tried to naturally care about people's well being. Cultivating that causes me to be rather likable, and yet still remain aloof- people usually don't realize I know all about them, and they know almost nothing about me.

Still, I find myself an odd one among the INTP crowd, and I might actually agree with you. Most INTPs do find theirselves plainly and clearly introverted.

They do, however, have a similar 'chameleon' affect (or so they call it), where they imitate those in the social situation they are in, to keep others out and still seem sociable.

Still.

[Trivani]

I recommend a book called "The Introvert Advantage" for understanding introversion. Introversion seems to be the only aspect of the 4 personality traits that cannot be changed because introversion is caused by genetics. An introverts mind works differently. We need time without stimulation or our minds get exhausted. We can learn to act extroverted but we will always need our downtime or we will become strung out.

[Gone7]

I follow your logic; however, I'd be a liar if I didn't say that I often put on a "face" for public presentation. I have to give briefings in my job weekly. Everyone says I am a funny guy and very friendly...they constantly say good things and treat me like a personal friend.

...The truth is, I don't really like most of them. This is evident by my lack of social involvement outside of the office. It is the "INTJ Lie" and it is tragic that we must use it so often.
Yea ... I feel you Im the same way where I work , I hate hiding behind a facade but have to some times in the External world ... I really dont like any of them except for a very few but still don't like them that much
Tragic ..... very tragic

[Matt01]

Good analysis, I was going to ask the same question as the OP. Now I don't have to. One additional comment: use the INTJ paradigm as a tool to get over things that are blocking your goals. For example, if you are lonely, but you seem to want to be by yourself, but miserable, at least you know why. Now what do you do? That's the fun part.

Arrogance: quit that.

Faking extroversion: better than faking introversion, don't you think? Then you get to come home and let the brain chemicals sort out. Not too bad.

OP, good luck on the accounting career. That's what I'm trying to get into now but have a few years (schooling while doing FT job).

[enWTFp]

I was thinking too about INTJ/ENTJ differences and how to recognize them. I know more ENTJs than should be normal (no idea why), and I notice they easily can be mistaken for Introverts. Actually, those who came out ENTJ from the MBTI test were usually those who I would never type as Extroverts. They work a lot; yes, they have many contacts, but not many friends, if any. And most of the time they are busy working, although they never lose control if you bother them surprisingly (I think INTJs react to uninvited guests a little more reluctantly).

But what I think shows the difference is: organizing parties! ENTJs love to do this from time to time - to get a lot of people together and have fun wildly. On the other hand, INTJs are more rarely seen at parties, and they are usually not the organizers, they just join in.

So, this is not very strong conclusion, because it is based on observation of a dozen NTJs, but to check your ENTJ-ness, ask yourself do you love to organize events with people, and how often. For ENTJs they seem to do this at least once a month, if not weekly, because it really energizes them.

Note: ENTJs tend to dislike the term 'field marshal' and prefer 'mastermind', so some of them may decide they are actually INTJs. Normally, ENTJs are surprised to see themselves as rulers, and order-givers, from their perspective they just enjoy life rationally. Field marshal sounds too serious and nasty to them. Even after they know they are ENTJs, they make jokes about all this, they don't see themselves as overly bossy or commanding, in any case.

[Flamethrower]

I was thinking too about INTJ/ENTJ differences and how to recognize them. I know more ENTJs than should be normal (no idea why), and I notice they easily can be mistaken for Introverts. Actually, those who came out ENTJ from the MBTI test were usually those who I would never type as Extroverts. They work a lot; yes, they have many contacts, but not many friends, if any. And most of the time they are busy working, although they never lose control if you bother them surprisingly (I think INTJs react to uninvited guests a little more reluctantly).

Note: ENTJs tend to dislike the term 'field marshal' and prefer 'mastermind', so some of them may decide they are actually INTJs. Normally, ENTJs are surprised to see themselves as rulers, and order-givers, from their perspective they just enjoy life rationally. Field marshal sounds too serious and nasty to them. Even after they know they are ENTJs, they make jokes about all this, they don't see themselves as overly bossy or commanding, in any case.

This is true I think. My ENTJ best friend is fairly aloof when it comes to hanging out with lots of people. He is picky about friends. I was surprised to learn he isn't really a party animal. He just tolerates people. I've noticed many ENTJs seem to like their own space more than other extraverts. And I am definitely more bossy than he is!

[joydove]

We live, learn and then adapt; does not mean one becomes an extrovert. Most at my job assume I'm extroverted and funny; however when my introverted side takes over the sensing type annoy me wondering aloud "what's wrong..." :rolleyes: I wish they would just go away-after all I was in my office with the door shut. :irked:

In any event, a simple pleasant greeting sans a long pause for a response is my morning greeting. Lunch invites are avoided by scheduling a working lunch in my office, an unannounced quick building departure for some downtime or a book reading while eating in a commons area.

Now if the receptionist would learn to forward my calls into the voice mail system instead of paging me for every freaking incoming call, no one else would know I'm in my office and come a knocking. :annoyed:

[Sean O]

Hi guys!

I've been lurking in this forum for a while now. I found it thoroughly fascinatiing that so many other people are having the same troubles that I have.

I don't think I need to let you all know about my childhood social life etc. as I think all of you INTJs out there already have a slight idea on how they are.

Oh and I do apologised if my english sounds a little bit weird and strange because English is my first language. I particularly don't like grammar much as I don't think it makes perfect sense. But that's just me.

Now the reason I'm posting here today is firstly, I need to up my post count so I can see your links images etc :)

Second reason for posting is I need to know what you guys think with INTJ becoming more and more ENTJ.

I am currently a business student. I discovered my type 2 or 3 years ago and finally found out why I can't relate with people as well as my other relatives friends etc. Its like a big mystery being solved. Even my parents sometimes don't understand me. However, now that I'm nearing in completing my accounting degree, I find it more and more necessary to be extrovert, or at least pretend to be extrovert, to survive and flourish in the business world. Contacts is key to success in the business world as they say.

For the past year and a half, I've been forcing myself to social situations to improve my social skills. I think I"ve done quite well and have made lots of friends in the 1 year and a half compared to the 20 years before. However, the problems I'm having now is that I seem to talk too much in social situations. If I am with a group of friends, or a group of strangers, I will be the first one to speak up and try to relax or more likely "break the ice". Then I'll go on and on until I think I found myself a little bit overbearing.

Also, do you guys have problems with arrogance? I found confidence and arrogance to be quite a thin line. I feel more confident now that I'm working on my extroverted side but in the back of my mind, I keep on questioned myself whether does this make me appear arrogant to outsiders?

Anyway, I hope you can give me some feedback on this and if not, at least I will have 1 post count less to achieving my objective. :PHere's some input from an ENTJ who used to think he was an INTJ.

It's possible that you were mistyped at first. The first time I took an MBTI test I tested as an INTJ, although I was borderline on the I/E scale. I didn't question the results because a) I've always been able to enjoy my own company, b) I would rather read a book than hang out with boring people (note that boredom can be draining, which might be mistaken for being drained around people due to introversion), and c) throughout my life I've found that many people don't understand me, or rather that we don't have a lot in common. I assumed that my borderline score was just due to my good social skills, since a lot of the I/E questions on the test seemed to be about social skills.

However, I've learned a lot since then. For one thing, I've learned that extroverted intuitives can sometimes seem like introverts, for a number of reasons. First, Ns (NTs in particular) tend to be energized by mental stimulation, and ENs are no exception. Socializing doesn't always offer this. I am at my most energized and extroverted when I'm in a deep, challenging discussion with a person or a group of people. However, I get bored to death at typical extrovert hangouts like clubs and bars. Extroverted sensors, on the other hand, who get energized by sensory input from their environment, love things like this (it also explains their affinity for small talk - what's being said is less important than the fact that noise is being made :laugh:). Second, with sensors outnumbering intuitives 2 to 1, it can be hard to find people who communicate with you on a similar level. Sensors and intuitives communicate very differently, and many sensors are often lost in intuitive-style conversation. Similarly, intuitives get bored easily with sensor-style conversation because it usually seems bland. It kind of puts you off of wanting to hang out with people if they a) hard a hard time understanding you, and b) often bore you. For me, interesting solo activities usually seemed better in comparison.

So basically, I may seem like an introvert at times because I'm not an extroverted sensor (ESs are the stereotypical extroverts). However, when I'm around people I find interesting, or when I'm in more formal/professional situations where there's a task at hand to be figured out, managed and executed, my extroversion - and my ENTJness in particular - really starts to show. If any of this sounds like you, then you might actually be an ENTJ.

[Flamethrower]

(note that boredom can be draining, which might be mistaken for being drained around people due to introversion)

Absolutely true - boredom is draining. So you get a double banger if you are INTJ - drained by people in general AND by their boring sensor conversations. I liked your comment about feeling out of place with other people because I feel like that and I imagine many other INTJs do as well. Your description is very good.

[pocohauntus]

I am at my most energized and extroverted when I'm in a deep, challenging discussion with a person or a group of people. However, I get bored to death at typical extrovert hangouts like clubs and bars. Extroverted sensors, on the other hand, who get energized by sensory input from their environment, love things like this (it also explains their affinity for small talk - what's being said is less important than the fact that noise is being made :laugh:). Second, with sensors outnumbering intuitives 2 to 1, it can be hard to find people who communicate with you on a similar level. Sensors and intuitives communicate very differently, and many sensors are often lost in intuitive-style conversation. Similarly, intuitives get bored easily with sensor-style conversation because it usually seems bland. It kind of puts you off of wanting to hang out with people if they a) hard a hard time understanding you, and b) often bore you.
Am I correct in interpreting your post, particularly the bolded part, as you saying that you believe sensors and intuitives would not be able to sustain any sort of long term, meaningful relationship because conversations between them result in the intuitive getting bored very easily and the sensor, being unable to follow the course of intuitive-style conversation, gets lost by what is being conveyed?

[Flamethrower]

Am I correct in interpreting your post, particularly the bolded part, as you saying that you believe sensors and intuitives would not be able to sustain any sort of long term, meaningful relationship because conversations between them result in the intuitive getting bored very easily and the sensor, being unable to follow the course of intuitive-style conversation, gets lost by what is being conveyed?

I find that I have problems with sensor types sometimes. One of my best friends is ESTJ and we get on extremely well and have really stimulating conversations. But we have a similar intellect. She writes a lot and I notice in her writing that she is more detailed than me and her writing is less figurative.

At the same time I have several other ISFJ or similar friends who drive me bonkers. (Not all S types do). They talk incessantly about NOTHING and never think to actually ask for my feedback on anything. A typical conversation sounds like a list of pointless details fired out of a machine gun:

"My cat had tuna for breakfast this morning. She's a good cat. The tin cost me $2. I've got a voucher to go to the movies. If I go to the cinema in Brown street I can pick up my groceries on the way. Mmmm, I feel like eating popcorn....."

And all this time I am thinking "what the fuck are we talking about????" I find that I try very hard to get a grasp on what is actually important to them though. Making noise without substance is how it seems to me but I am aware that is what makes total sense to them. And probably the thing that annoys me the most is that I realise I probably sound completely confusing and off the planet to them but they never put any effort into recognizing my style of communicating. They are too busy spitting out details and then later get resentful when I answer back with an indepth, intellectual type of answer or require them to stay with a topic and think about it more thoroughly.

I feel this is the reason the ENTJs appear aloof. They don't tolerate this sort of behaviour from others much because they see it as mindless and unintelligent.

Sensors and intuitives can have really satifying relationships though. Many of the people I am closest to are sensors.

[Sean O]

Am I correct in interpreting your post, particularly the bolded part, as you saying that you believe sensors and intuitives would not be able to sustain any sort of long term, meaningful relationship because conversations between them result in the intuitive getting bored very easily and the sensor, being unable to follow the course of intuitive-style conversation, gets lost by what is being conveyed?That's the trend I've noticed. Still, it does depend on the person. I know a few sensors who I get along very well with, who appreciate intuitiveness and like talking about more abstract, intellectual things (one of them, an ISFJ, recently joined this forum, actually). Even still, I find sometimes I have to be very precise with how I word my ideas to them, because the somewhat chaotic nature of intuitive thought tends to not mix well with the concrete, linear style of thinking that sensors have.

I guess, to be more specific, although you shouldn't completely rule out the possibility of having an enjoyable, meaningful relationship with a sensor, expect the number of sensors who you really "click" with to be much lower than the number of intuitives you click with.

[pocohauntus]

"My cat had tuna for breakfast this morning. She's a good cat. The tin cost me $2. I've got a voucher to go to the movies. If I go to the cinema in Brown street I can pick up my groceries on the way. Mmmm, I feel like eating popcorn....."
Thanks for your answer. Somehow I think the above "conversation", though it may sound as though a sensor said it, is written in an intuitive style. In other words, it makes sense on both levels, therefore I'm not sure how I would interpret it given the context of this online forum.





pocohauntus added to this post, 9 minutes and 5 seconds later...

I guess, to be more specific, although you shouldn't completely rule out the possibility of having an enjoyable, meaningful relationship with a sensor, expect the number of sensors who you really "click" with to be much lower than the number of intuitives you click with.
I've had both problems with sensor and intuitive style writing and conversations. Neither one is very satisfying. For most of my adult life I was surrounded by intuitives who communicated in a different way than I did. In other words, the definitions of words was different than mine, the context from which they were communicating was different than mine, and, I think, the intent of the intuitive style communication was different as well. I didn't realize this until relatively recently. For a long time I couldn't understand why I didn't feel like I was really a part of them, although the actual feeling I got from being around them was fine.

The world of sensors might indeed seem boring to many intuitives, but I find them much more easy to understand and communicate with. Intuitive "style" just doesn't come easily to me.

[Sean O]

Some intuitives have a habit of speaking almost entirely in metaphors. I'm a very strongly expressed intuitive on the S/N scale (never less than 75% on MBTI tests, usually more like 85-90%), so I can usually understand what they're talking about, but if you're more towards the middle on the S/N scale then I can understand how intuitive-style conversation could be frustrating. NFs usually seem more metaphorical than NTs, in my experience.

The kinds of topics that tend to be brought up by sensors vs. intuitives play an even more important role than speech patterns, in my opinion. I can tolerate really flowery, metaphorical speech from an intuitive if the topic has depth and meaning. However, sensors seem to like to talk about more mundane things, kind of like the example Flamethrower gave, and to me excellent communication skills don't really make up for a boring topic. I think more than anything, intuitives want to be mentally stimulated, so regardless of whether you're talking with a sensor or an intuitive, if the person can give you that stimulation, you'll be happy. It's just that the majority of sensors don't seem to like mental stimulation for its own sake.

[Flamethrower]

Thanks for your answer. Somehow I think the above "conversation", though it may sound as though a sensor said it, is written in an intuitive style. In other words, it makes sense on both levels, therefore I'm not sure how I would interpret it given the context of this online forum.

Well ok, I am intuitive and I am trying to emulate a sensor. Here is an excerpt from msn of actual comments made (in this sequence) by a sensor friend of mine:

- yeah i thought you would like my friend Sue
- she's cool. although i plan to make it my mission to make her laugh
- david has the whole of tomorrow off
- bugger. weather forcast says rain tomorrow
- showers today, but RAIN tomorrow
- argh
- i now have $53.70 in my bank account. cool eh

Those comments were all made within seconds of each other without any input from me. They are basically just the details that are going through her head at that exact time without really attaching any meaning to them or trying to find any connection. If this came from me I would probably talk about each of those 4 subjects in more depth than that and only if I felt they had relevance to the other person. Also the subject would likely have some link between them.

I've had both problems with sensor and intuitive style writing and conversations. Neither one is very satisfying. For most of my adult life I was surrounded by intuitives who communicated in a different way than I did. In other words, the definitions of words was different than mine, the context from which they were communicating was different than mine, and, I think, the intent of the intuitive style communication was different as well. I didn't realize this until relatively recently. For a long time I couldn't understand why I didn't feel like I was really a part of them, although the actual feeling I got from being around them was fine.

The world of sensors might indeed seem boring to many intuitives, but I find them much more easy to understand and communicate with. Intuitive "style" just doesn't come easily to me.

I think with intuitives there can seem to be a couple of styles. Some intuitives seem very figurative and other are more logical sounding. Depends on your exact make up I guess. I am both nerdy and an artist so I can sound like either.

Is it possible you are a sensor type?