Corruption, Cheating, Misleading, Manipulating, and Lying

[lazymf]

and also anything else you can think of that is socially viewed wrong.

and the question is, do you do it? and why? What is your opinion?


i do it as a way to take advantage of other people that i view a threat to my plans. anyone that is potentially to take a piece of my pie will be given this treatment to ensure that my plans go smooth. corruption at a interpersonal level for personal gain is acceptable if you dont view them as your friends.

Do these shortcuts really matter as long as its the best route from A to B?
Are you threatened with people of the same level that are trying to excel?

do you see things competitive and have a desire to somehow be on top of your competition?

[pallasathena]

i do it as a way to take advantage of other people that i view a threat to my plans.

I think that's called a sociopath. Although that may not be true in your case since you mentioned that you have friends. But then again, are they really your true friends or pawns to be used to further your plans and goals?

BTW, I prefer the honest way. It takes a real genius to lie and manipulate and remember all that stuff.

[lazymf]

could be, i might be a sociopath, seems like it.

INTJ + sociopath = ?

thats a pretty 'evil' combo i think

[thod]

Its a losing strategy.

People recall how you treated them last time, your Corruption, Cheating, Misleading, Manipulating, and Lying. They wont do business with you again, they will tell others of your actions and they will treat you warily. Soon you will be excluded from everything and nobody will work with you limiting your opportunities.

Although winning is everything in the corporate world and Wall street they are very strict about honoring their commitments because confidence in the other party is everything. It takes a long time to build a reputation and it can be destroyed overnight.

[Toby]

Sure I'll lie, cheat, mislead and manipulate occasionally; if and only if I don't see any other way to avoid dangerous situations.

You seem to be willing to use any means necessary to see your plans come to fruition.

Do you see the world in absolutes?


Do these shortcuts really matter as long as its the best route from A to B?

You can't just go around and ignore/walk over everyone that stands in your way. There will always be consequences later.


do you see things competitive and have a desire to somehow be on top of your competition?
No.

[Theodoric]

I do it, mainly to either benefit myself or ensure my continued survival.

A real world application of this.

Say you have a supervisor who consistently makes small talk with his subordinates. He laughs with them, jokes, tells stories, etc. It is apparent by his actions that he is the type that just wants to be liked. He wants to have friends and doesn't want to come off as the "mean jerk boss." Some may write him off or ignore him. However, in this situation if I knew several other coworkers were going out for drinks afterward, I would make an attempt to invite him. Why? This would play to his ideals of wanting to be liked. Later on, should their be budget cuts or constraints and people would need to be let go, logic would tell us the least productive would be. However, in most cases this is not true. People look out for those that make them feel good and take care of their needs. So, since I had the foresight to take care of my superior's need for acceptance he will keep me around and fire the person that he knows nothing about and has no connection to.

Another real world application of this would be to cheat on a test in academics. Truth be told, most if not all careers have little use for the rote memorization that is required to pass tests. You don't know the answer to a certain question, so you cheat to get by and pass the test. Now, you could take the 'honorable' way and not cheat. However, if you do this you may doom yourself to a lower grade, not being able to get into some post secondary education, and gaining a career that pays well and having to live in poverty all due to the fact that you were unable to remember some trivial fact that in the grand scheme of things is relatively unimportant (yes, this is hyperbole but it illustrates my point)

In the end, it is the idea that the ends justify the means. If it is an opportunity to ensure my continued survival then I will take it. It is not out of cruelty or hatred like the sociopath, it is only business.

[Kuriozidee]

and also anything else you can think of that is socially viewed wrong.

and the question is, do you do it? and why? What is your opinion?


i do it as a way to take advantage of other people that i view a threat to my plans. anyone that is potentially to take a piece of my pie will be given this treatment to ensure that my plans go smooth. corruption at a interpersonal level for personal gain is acceptable if you dont view them as your friends.

Do these shortcuts really matter as long as its the best route from A to B?
Are you threatened with people of the same level that are trying to excel?

do you see things competitive and have a desire to somehow be on top of your competition?
I believe that EVERYONE has these capabilities... no matter how innocent someone might seem. We are all evolved to some degree but we are still animals on the basic level. All of those seemingly 'negative' qualities are survival methods that we, in the evolved state, choose whether to use or not use based on our circumstances. I, personally, have rules of my own and will admit that, yes, I can be manipulative, I can be a liar, I can be a cheater...but only if I choose to do so. I do not see the sense in taking advantage of others most of the time and prefer to play on level ground, therefore, I do not usually allow my darkside to flourish, so to speak.

[Marcus]

I do not cheat because I think that I would just cheat myself in the long run. I would never take part in corruption neither as the paying, nor as the receiving party. Misleading/manipulating: I see the long term outcome earlier than others and can put myself into a better position than others. I do not manipulate directly (like an enfj would do ;)), I just don't show my cards, or only show a part of them. I prefer to avoid lying (I mean 'hard' lying to trick someone, soft lies, like social lies are less of a problem), it is the same as cheating, I would just lie to myself in the long run. I did it occasionaly when the situation was desperate (but those lies were not harming anyone else, just covered my ass), but I was not happy to do so.

I tend to feel very angry when I am cheated or lied to or discover that I was manipulated. I could not fight against (either internally or exrternally) if I were doing the same.

My moral integrity is more important in the long run than gaining short term advantages. Anyway, I thought that preserving moral integrity is a part of the INTJ's perfectionism.

[acyckowski]

The only ones I seem to do are manipulating and misleading, and I think I'm just overanalyzing myself. Theodoric's point about consciously using another person's preferences to control the interaction sure feels like manipulation, but in reality many people do it so naturally that I think it's just a natural expression of F and P functions.

Otherwise, though, I hold myself to a higher standard of integrity than I do others. Not to say I'm perfect, but I'm harsher on myself than others might be.

[True Rune]

Only thing I engage in is non malevolent manipulation. Maybe deception if someone doesn't get my sarcasm.

[BigAaron]

Sure I'll lie, cheat, mislead and manipulate occasionally; if and only if I don't see any other way to avoid dangerous situations.

Same here, but I'll also do it to someone i believe deserves it for being a lame/bad person.

[youngblooded]

I believe it's all a matter of perception. I mean, if you view life in terms of good or evil, you would find that all these actions would seem to be negative. But if you view life in terms of winning and losing than it becomes something else entirely. To think of it, manipulation and lying are just simply tactics, aren't they? Just like any other one. They all achieve a certain purpose but they are view as negative because they require a certain level of cruelness or emotional coldness to use them properly. I do manipulate and lie at times but all for the purpose of winning. Nothing more or less.

[Antares]

It's not something I do usually, but I will if I have to. Some other members have been discussing matters over my honesty with my mother, and I want to clarify. I think we all know what type she is. She's determined to bombard me with 'responsibilities' like piano and flute and unlike my peers, I cannot do whatever I want after my homework is done, so I lie; I tell her that I take the whole afternoon to do my homework while I'm online the whole time. The total 'homework' time is 8 hours, and of these, only two hours will be spent on homework. Also, I do this because if I take up every minute, I won't have to practice piano and flute. Trust me, if I could be honest, I would, but there's no changing her mind when an ISFJ has her convictions set in stone; but there's no stopping a determined INTJ, either. I prefer honesty, but I know there's no negotiating with her and it would only make her watch my every move. I'm willing to compromise my integrity; no big harm. My father recently set a 'boundaries' to the net due to her 'complaining' that I spend too much time online (of this she has no proof; just suspicion and self-righteousness) and limited my time to three hours; and it's so blatantly obvious how he does it I took two minutes to figure it out, and my time's out at 20:00, but it's 20:05 right now.

I choose honesty whenever the situation allows and whenever it's worth it; but I do make a distinction when it's rational to lie. I manipulate people when I think it's rational to and it won't harm them in any way; but I'd never cheat. During table tennis, my opponent might have diverted attention and think that they had lost the point instead of I (my ball bounced twice but she didn't notice and hit it into the net), and I reminded her; costing myself a point. My band teacher gives out extra credits to those who attended the Jazz concert that she conducted. My ENTP friend told me to raise my hand for extra credit and told me he'd cover for me and say I went (that he saw me; he didn't go himself but got the extra credit), but I refused.

[acyckowski]

The total 'homework' time is 8 hours, and of these, only two hours will be spent on homework.

My father recently set a 'boundaries' to the net due to her 'complaining' that I spend too much time online (of this she has no proof; just suspicion and self-righteousness)

Funny how the truth will come out, regardless of how the facts are abused or ignored.

I see where you're coming from, but this is not a good tactic for you because of the ongoing dispute. Your Mom's unwillingness to grant you autonomy is based on trust rather than competence...in other words, she sees your continued defiance as evidence that you won't do what's right, not that you can't do what's right.
Adding dishonesty, even the smallest little bit, will reinforce to your Mom that she is right about your defiance and must remove freedom, not give you more. Since the fundamental conflict is between her justifiable claim to authority and your justifiable claim to reason, this will create a feedback loop by which her irrational actions will lead to more defiance of her authority on your part.

There is a "third way" that is honest. Negotiate a compromise between competing interests through a third party. Since your father appears to be the final authority in these ongoing disputes with Mom, or at least emotionally removed from the dispute, you should try using him as an arbiter.

Your position: I should be able to do what I want with my free time if my required tasks are complete. You have an opportunity to gain efficiency by completing all required tasks as quickly as possible, maximizing your liesure activities. You must be willing to concede the point that as long as you live in their house, they get to define what tasks are required.

Mom's position: It is her duty to raise you as a functioning, well rounded adult, and she has inherent authority to decide what that means and coerce you to do it. She has the opportunity to have you complete her idea of necessary tasks with less daily drama. She has to be willing to concede that prompt compliance with her authority on the "important" activities must lead to your autonomy in liesure activities.

There seems to be common ground here, as long as both of you are willing to negotiate a bit.

[NephilimAzrael]

Lying and misleading are only effective with puritanical persons in my opinion. Cheating, I detest infidelity. Manipulation is only effective if the ends justify the means for more than just myself (namely my ideals). The only socially disapproved form of action I approve of is indirect hostility.

[Jughead]

I lie only when telling the truth would take too much effort, and isn't important, anyway, and I am not misleading the person by lying.

Example:
A: How are you?
Me: I'm pretty good. (lie.)
Truth: I've had a terrible day, and I'm rather emotional right now, but I'll get over it.

I do not mislead or manipulate people.

[Julien]

A strategist (INTJ) is manipulative in nature, according to Nietzsche it's a way to bend space and reality to our will.

[jadefalcon]

Corruption, Cheating, Misleading, Manipulating, and Lying

The short version: damn them all and to hell with them.

Cheating- how so? cheaters on tests deserve not to move on. Cheating on a spouse or girlfriend? equally as bad, actually worse. Trust and loyalty is broken, that is big with me.

Misleading- probably the biggest one of them all. Misleading people into ignorance it probably the one thing that gets me angry. To put it bluntly- ignorant people piss me off, but those that lead them there need to fall in a pit and be laughed at.

Manipulating- Will not be manipulated or play games. To hell with them.

Lying- better be a good reason- if its a big enough of a lie and my trust is breached, then there is a problem. If I can't trust you with $5, I can't trust you with $5.000,000.


Thus, I am somewhat cynical and still am somewhat cynical from my earlier years.

[eli]

It's not something I do usually, but I will if I have to. Some other members have been discussing matters over my honesty with my mother, and I want to clarify. I think we all know what type she is. She's determined to bombard me with 'responsibilities' like piano and flute and unlike my peers, I cannot do whatever I want after my homework is done, so I lie; I tell her that I take the whole afternoon to do my homework while I'm online the whole time. The total 'homework' time is 8 hours, and of these, only two hours will be spent on homework. Also, I do this because if I take up every minute, I won't have to practice piano and flute. Trust me, if I could be honest, I would, but there's no changing her mind when an ISFJ has her convictions set in stone; but there's no stopping a determined INTJ, either. I prefer honesty, but I know there's no negotiating with her and it would only make her watch my every move. I'm willing to compromise my integrity; no big harm. My father recently set a 'boundaries' to the net due to her 'complaining' that I spend too much time online (of this she has no proof; just suspicion and self-righteousness) and limited my time to three hours; and it's so blatantly obvious how he does it I took two minutes to figure it out, and my time's out at 20:00, but it's 20:05 right now.

I choose honesty whenever the situation allows and whenever it's worth it; but I do make a distinction when it's rational to lie. I manipulate people when I think it's rational to and it won't harm them in any way; but I'd never cheat. During table tennis, my opponent might have diverted attention and think that they had lost the point instead of I (my ball bounced twice but she didn't notice and hit it into the net), and I reminded her; costing myself a point. My band teacher gives out extra credits to those who attended the Jazz concert that she conducted. My ENTP friend told me to raise my hand for extra credit and told me he'd cover for me and say I went (that he saw me; he didn't go himself but got the extra credit), but I refused.

My mother was very similar. I would lie all the time just to get her off my back. It sounds like your mother's emotional needs are leading her actions, much more than her understanding of your needs. I feel bad in saying this, but honestly I found no other way in dealing with it then lying to her and then eventually moving out. Once she realized that she no longer had any control over me, our relationship improved dramatically.

I act much the same way towards irrational employers.
Ex: I'm too sick to go into work. If I have a rational employer, I will them that I can't come into work because I'm sick. They will be rational enough to think back about my attendance history and notice that I've missed very few days (if any) and thus must really be sick. If I have an irrational employer, I will call in with a weepy sick voice and go over in lenght about how sick I am and how I really would feel so much better tomorrow if I could just rest today.
I will feel no lack of integrity about doing this. I need something that is rightfully mine and for it to be given I need to make the giver feel like he is being extra kind in giving said thing.

[Dominguez]

I lie only when telling the truth would take too much effort, and isn't important, anyway, and I am not misleading the person by lying.

Example:
A: How are you?
Me: I'm pretty good. (lie.)
Truth: I've had a terrible day, and I'm rather emotional right now, but I'll get over it.

I do not mislead or manipulate people.

yep, lying by omission is the only thing i'd do, and i'd only do it because i feel the complete truth would complicate things in an unfavorable way. aside from that, i don't even get myself into situations where i would mislead or cheat or anything like that.

[onlyparallel]

I think manipulating is wrong, but I do it anyway, often without even realizing that I'm doing it. What is my justification for this? Well I have a few
1. it's for their own good
2. it's to prevent greater evil
3. they deserve it
4. I'm in a bad mood

Is it often really for thier own good or to prevent greater evil? Usually. Though I do use the last two excuses, and honestly, they're not very good ones (though sometmies they really really do deserve it, and in the right mind frame I may believe that this is a good excuse).

[Indubitably]

A strategist (INTJ) is manipulative in nature, according to Nietzsche it's a way to bend space and reality to our will.

lol They have another name for that, its called self delusion, and trust me, it doesn't work as effectively as you might think. XD In all seriousness though, your perception of reality may change, but reality itself couldn't care less what you perceive. Sure convincing yourself that your perception is the only thing that matters will work to a certain degree, but I doubt most INTJs would settle for that. From what I can tell they usually don't just want to make a difference in the world inside their head, they want to make a difference in the world around them too.

Besides, lies and deliberate deception are a huge investment of mental energy. I doubt most INTJs would bother with such things for the same reason that most any rational individual avoids lies, they are inefficient. There are times where a little here and there may go a long way, but after a point it rarely yields a fruitful outcome. When you think about it, if someone can force you into a lie, they have the upper hand. The strategy of it is in letting your opponent fool themselves, in letting them wear themselves out with subterfuge and manipulation while you maneuver into the superior position.

[JustMel]

Most of these will likely be dependent upon which of the answering INTJs ethics they do or do not violate.

A lot of INTJs don't feel guilt over these behaviors BUT won't do them because they violate a particular ethic that would cross a line that an INTJ doesn't cross.

Have I lied? Yes, especially if I didn't want to explain myself to someone who wouldn't understand what I was talking about anyway.

Sometimes the best route isn't the shortest.

[Tocsin]

Lord Acton once said, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

He got it wrong.

His mistake is that the relationship is not causal. Power does not corrupt; power IS corruption.

Let's be clear, the "power" that we are talking about is not solar, or electrical, etc.; it is power in human relationships - the power of one or some people over other people.

Why is this corruption?

Consider the most obvious observable reality in existence; the self motivated action of humans. Every morning of every day, we all awake and consider what actions to pursue to achieve the aims we want. This is self will. The only people who do not exhibit this are people who are for some reason mentally impaired or unconscious, or prisoners who are so restrained that they can exercise no self will at all.

This self will is the natural state of human beings, and there is a word for it: freedom.

Now a human being can make many choices, even choices that restrict their own opportunities. If you have $3,000 and want to take a skiing trip, you can choose to do so. However, if you also want to use that money to purchase a car, you could choose to do that instead. The fact that choosing either one denies you the option of exercising the other choice is not a contradiction of freedom: It is still your choice.

This is the nature of the social contract: we voluntarily choose to accept certain limitations to our own actions in exchange for certain protections from the actions of others, and for the benefits that mutual cooperation and specialization of labor provides. It is still a state of freedom, so long as it is freely accepted.

The antithesis of the state of freedom is the state of power.

In human terms, it is when the freedom of one person (or more) has been corrupted, so that they act not in accordance with their own natural freedom, but act in service to the will of someone/something else.

Power in human relationships is when one person gets another to do their bidding, and by any variety of means: coercion, deception, manipulation, intimidation, extortion, or a wide variety of applications of force and violence, or the implied use of force and violence.

Power corrupts the victim of power, for they are no longer acting in accord with (their own) nature, they have been "forced" to choose between "the lesser of two evils." They do exercise a choice, but it is not a choice among options they want, it is a choice among options for the one which they do not want the least.

Power corrupts the employer of power, for they are no longer acting out of a state of freedom, they have unnaturally compromised the freedom of another and are controlling more than their own choices.

When we consider evil, in many cases what we are considering is this corruption, this violation of the freedom of one person, usurped by another. All of the means of exercising power, whether through deception, intimidation, or force, all carry widespread and popular condemnation. It is probably because we innately sense this violation of humanity and freedom implied by these actions.

Even those who choose to exercise power over others by these means do not escape the implications of their actions. The only way they can be internally justified is by the internal dehumanization of the victims of power. The violation of the freedom of others often employs a variety of principles common to Social Darwinism: the victims are too weak, or too undeserving, to be treated as human beings. In this manner the abuser reduces himself (or herself) to the status of an animal at the same time they reduce their victims to being less than human.

Many of the common idioms of power: "survival of the fittest," "to the victor goes the spoils," "might makes right," "the ends justify the means," and so on attest to the dehumanized, unconscious pursuit of personal benefit without restraint, and without recognition of the freedom and rights of others.

But all of these justification are errors, they are distortions that fail to recognize the inherent self motivated actions of all people, and that any imposition of power by one over another is only a transitory corruption of that natural state.

They also fail to recognize that the corruption of one person exercising power over another dramatically influences the exercise of that unnatural power. As Aldous Huxley once said: "The ends cannot justify the means for the simple and obvious reason that the means employed determine the nature of the ends produced. "

To those of you who feel inclined to live by such ethics, consider what that world will become if taken to its logical and extreme outcome. It would be a world where all people are either predators or prey. All human interactions would be nothing more than manipulations for competing personal advantages; where everyone sleeps with one eye open and in suspicion that the knife in their back will eventually come from the people closest to them.

What an ugly, petty, and mean-spirited world that would be.

And how you choose to act determines which kind of world you choose to help create.

[onlyparallel]

Toscin, extremely interesting points, and mostly I agree whole heartedly. Though I think that any manipulation I use is not to the extent that it would do extreme damage. Then again, you may ask then where is the cut off point, when is manipulation right? I suppose that when manipulation is employed only for personal gain it is wrong, but when used to save others or to prevent the person being manipulated from being harmed it may be justifiable. I don't see 'white lies' and the like as crimes, though if used wrongly they can be harmful.