how do i know if a male INTJ is interested?

[ENFP is curious]

hi there new here.

the overview is this: have been friends with this guy for a year and a half. over past 6 months, since i moved closer to him (for work), we've spent a lot of time online chatting and started meeting for drinks often. i know he liked me, he appeared irritated when he found out i was going out with someone else. i thought we were buddies. then he disappeared for a bit. since then, we've become better friends and although we don't get together as often, we started texting more, IMing less. some flirting happening and one night he had me over and we became physical. i've told him since that i'm interested in getting to know him beyond a platonic relationship and he said he would like that as well. BUT, he's rebuffed my suggestions of getting together one on one and sometimes will not show if there are group outings, even if he's said he would. he does text me every day and we do see each other now a couple of times a month, just for drinks. he has asked me if i would come over again and i said yes, but nothing has been set up. i understand his need for space and after an intitial blow out from me when he didn't show up one time, i've backed off and things have gotten better. i guess what i would like to understand is, does he still see me as a romantic interest or as a good buddy? so hard for this ENFP to understand the rules of engagement but i'm certainly willing to do what it takes for this one.

[qwerty]

Wait so the question on his mind and mine is this: do you want to get together with him?

If you do then say so. You've told him no once, your move to correct his logic.

[ENFP is curious]

thanks for your reply. *i *do* want to get together with him. *i told him i liked him and wanted to get to know him better, that was almost 2 months ago (after we had the one encounter). *what's confusing for me is that i seem to be the one to suggest we hang out and then i have to wait for him to decide if that's what he wants every time. *usually he'll say yes but there have been times he's said no. *if he likes me, wouldn't he want to see me once a week or so? *and wouldn't he want to kiss me goodnight? *cuz that's not happening either. *sigh. *although extroverted i'm shy and just as scared of being rejected as he is.

[orange]

As a male INTJ, I am definatly not an expert on this subject because I have avoided dating up to this point in my life (don't worry too much, I'm only 19). When he disappeared after finding out you were dating someone at that time he probally took that time so that he could think of you as a good friend instead of a romantic interest. I have had to do that even when avoiding that type of relationship with people.

Assuming that his interaction with you is viewed by him as voluntary I would say that he probably still likes you. It will take time for him to change back to thinking of you as a romantic interest if that is indeed the case. The one thing that would bother me if I were you is that he doesn't show up when he says that he will. To me that says that he would rater be doing something else (unless something major came up and for some reason couldn't contact you).

One possible explanation that I could think of is that he is in the process of changing how he thinks of you and is avoiding close interaction with you during that awkward time for him.

Theres always one sure way to find out, Ask him.

As I said, I am young and VERY inexperienced, so you would probably be better off listening to the others that post here over me.Spelling

[qwerty]

thanks for your reply. i *do* want to get together with him. i told him i liked him and wanted to get to know him better, that was almost 2 months ago (after we had the one encounter). what's confusing for me is that i seem to be the one to suggest we hang out and then i have to wait for him to decide if that's what he wants every time. usually he'll say yes but there have been times he's said no. if he likes me, wouldn't he want to see me once a week or so? and wouldn't he want to kiss me goodnight? cuz that's not happening either. sigh. although extroverted i'm shy and just as scared of being rejected as he is.

Ok, now things get tricker then and you must outsmart him to get him to drop his guard.

Create a 100% revealing argument for him that is completely focused on him. So start talking about the world -> shift the conversation to people -> shift the conversation to couples -> shift the conversation to him.

You: "Hi, so I was thinking about life the universe and everything and this is really starting to get to me I could use your input"
Him: "Uh ok sure"
You: "Ok so there are 6 billion people on this world..."
Him: "Give or take"
You: "And every day the population is going at an incredibly fast rate..."
Him: "Sounds solid so far"
You: "Ok so how can the world be so full of war?"
Him: "what?!"
You: "For the population to be increasing then it means that more and more people are finding partners"
Him: "For relationships that either fizzle or are completely red neck in nature"
You: "Still it's a testament to the human race in general that even with the nature we have to fight for our beliefs that underneath everything we're still able to see the goodness in others."
Him: "Or we have a drive to have sex with anything that moves"
You: "Or because the we're not promiscuous in nature, we can fall in love" <-- make sure you emphasise the we part here, introverts have the upper hand because we take on the view points of other not just ourselves.
Him: "So what are you getting at? What is your problem"
You: "My problem is that if the world in general finds it so easy to fall in love, how does it happen?"
Him: "What?"
You: "So there must be something that triggers it in our brains... I mean when you love a person it's a different felling to what you normally get right..."
Him: "hmm yes I guess"

Continue from here and make him see the benefits of being with you. Now this is perhaps a conversation that would never take place and it's easy to sit back and write dialog for both sides. So you should definitively shape it in your own words and maybe follow the general point.

The idea is to take a general concept and continue to expand on it until he must make a conclusion. The conclusion is either what he's looking for in a woman or that you and he should get together.

He must make the decision, you can only push him in the right direction :).

[ENFP is curious]

i just don't understand why his mind isn't made up after all this time! he drops hints every now and then but sometimes they're *so* subtle i miss them at first glance. and by then the moment has passed. he knows i like him, i told him. he says he likes me - would an INTJ really say something they didn't mean? ugh.

[ShaiGar]

Since you're an ENFP here are two simple rules to follow when you want to date an INT*

1. Be Honest and Direct
2. You'll never know him even if you're married. Not completely.

You rebuffed HIM. You want him? Be direct, tell him you want to date him. However you dont want to get physical at first, so tell him that physical intimacy is going to have to wait a while. But if you were physical quickly with other guys and he knows it then he's going to see this as hypocrisy or that you think he is either less important or less appealing than other guys.

I saw a movie years ago called Roger Dodger, where the Uncle Roger explained that you want to put and keep the ball in your court. I am not sure if this crosses the P/J divide, but once I have put my intentions out there and have gotten them rebuffed, I'm not going to waste my efforts on you unless you give me Titanium Strong proof of your intentions, not just words. The ball once it has left my court doesn't return unless carried and handed over.

Honest
Direct
Give him personal space
He a different kettle of fish.

[qwerty]

i just don't understand why his mind isn't made up after all this time! he drops hints every now and then but sometimes they're *so* subtle i miss them at first glance. and by then the moment has passed. he knows i like him, i told him. he says he likes me - would an INTJ really say something they didn't mean? ugh.
I guess you should read this : Forum post (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) from an INFP who didn't see what goes on beneath the surface of an INTJ and why they won't react to a situation.

Basically it's saying that if their are enough emotions involved on the INTJ's behalf they second guess themselves and have a hard time seeing the correct course to take.

[logan235711]

a few things I suppose

one thing you mentioned was going out with him with a group of people, he might not feel he can properly explore you with other people around distracting and possibly listening in while he talks to you. He might want a) private time to just talk one-on-one in different situations (dinner, park, bookstore, etc.), the reason is he might want to see how you are from all angles b) since he hasn't committed to you, he might not want other people aware of it, just something to keep between you two until he decides; so putting him up in front of others might make it so he feels like he can't be more open because other people might see his interest in you and he will then have to worry about how they will see it, esp. as mentioned, when he hasn't committed yet--so he wants to avoid having to creating confusion for others and have other people see his others sides when he might not know them or want to show them that side of his personality, just you.

also, it sounds like he needs alot of alone time, so he enjoys hanging out with you, but he also needs to sit back and soak it all in, enjoy it all and think about where he stands in relation to everything (get his bearings). After you and him eventually do start going out and as it gets further and further along he will probably be able to spend more and more time with you because he will get more and more aware of who you are and has a good awareness of where he stands in relation to you--so he won't need as much time think it out cause he already has.

he kind of sounds like a more traditional INTJ in some regards, and in that case many INTJs are said to keep there different social circles separated, so mixing casual relationships with personal relationships etc. is something he might not be ready for (i.e. going out with you with a bunch of other people) until he is confident enough to know about how all of the circumstance will interact when they do. in any case I gtg now so good luck :p

[ShaiGar]

Could someone critique my post? I know it is that way for INTPs and I am using supposition for the INTJ parts. I would not like to be giving bad advice.

[iamnotspock]

from what I've discerned ENFP is not a good match for INTJ. if it is this hard to get together in the first place how are you going to keep it together?

but anyway, INTJ's don't play "the game" and don't chase. so just invite yourself over to his place after the next round of drinks.

then report back on what happened. your status should be clear by then

[StJimmy]

i just don't understand why his mind isn't made up after all this time! he drops hints every now and then but sometimes they're *so* subtle i miss them at first glance. and by then the moment has passed. he knows i like him, i told him. he says he likes me - would an INTJ really say something they didn't mean? ugh.

i think you underestimate the importance of him being upset and backing off after he found out you were seeing someone else. chances are he already had his mind made up about you, but your actions said to him that you weren't as interested.

being made to admit that you were wrong about someone isn't something that an intj would really appreciate, and in all likelihood he will be many times more cautious in any further relations.

and qwerty, just stop man, that's very naughty of you ;)

[qwerty]

Since you're an ENFP here are two simple rules to follow when you want to date an INT*

1. Be Honest and Direct
2. You'll never know him even if you're married. Not completely.

You rebuffed HIM. You want him? Be direct, tell him you want to date him. However you dont want to get physical at first, so tell him that physical intimacy is going to have to wait a while. But if you were physical quickly with other guys and he knows it then he's going to see this as hypocrisy or that you think he is either less important or less appealing than other guys.

I saw a movie years ago called Roger Dodger, where the Uncle Roger explained that you want to put and keep the ball in your court. I am not sure if this crosses the P/J divide, but once I have put my intentions out there and have gotten them rebuffed, I'm not going to waste my efforts on you unless you give me Titanium Strong proof of your intentions, not just words. The ball once it has left my court doesn't return unless carried and handed over.

Honest
Direct
Give him personal space
He a different kettle of fish.

The only problem I see is the ball in the court terminology. You never want to lead an INTJ and force their hand.
Flirting and dating is a game where the ball is played by both parties. You put yourself out there and he must come to you as well, you will never control a person who does not wish to be controlled.

[xtremegeek]

Honest
Direct
Give him personal space
He a different kettle of fish.

Being 'direct' is very key. *I am very introverted and I generally solve problems and do things for people without telling them. *This was a very big mistake with the INTJ I dated. *He took my silence as rejection. *He didn't know all the things I was changing in my life to make room for him (long distance relationship.) *Had I been more open and direct with him about all that was going on in my life, we might still be together today. *So, my advice, if you really like him - spell it out! *Don't wait for him to speak. *Don't try to 'guess' at what he's thinking. *Say it! Say what you are thinking. *Don't worry about how to deliver it; don't worry about how he will receive it. *Just spill your guts to him. *I sure wish I had done that with the INTJ I dated. *

[Jezebel]

i just don't understand why his mind isn't made up after all this time! he drops hints every now and then but sometimes they're *so* subtle i miss them at first glance. and by then the moment has passed. he knows i like him, i told him. he says he likes me - would an INTJ really say something they didn't mean? ugh.
I'm female, but I can't understand his behavior either. I was always straight forward when I was dating. If I know I'm not interested in someone who is pursuing me for a relationship, I let them know it won't work out. I don't like to hurt people's feelings but I believe it is better than wasting their time and letting them get even more emotionally involved. This way we can both move on to more productive things.

On the other hand, if I AM interested in someone, I can't imagine being flaky about spending time with them. I'm terrible at verbally expressing my feelings and that's where I might be misinterpreted. I always tried to show my interest in other ways though. If I agree to meet him for dinner, I'm going to be there unless an emergency comes up. If an emergency comes up, he's going to know exactly why I didn't come and there would be arrangements made to make up for it. I wouldn't just tell someone I really like that I'll meet up with them and not care enough to show up.

That probably wasn't helpful since I'm not an INTJ male, but I'm curious if any other INTJ males relate to that or if they give out signals more like the OP when they're interested (or not) in someone.

I don't know the whole story in this situation though and maybe there's some weird thing with him liking you but having reservations (I'd still be more communicative about it). Or maybe he has issues that goes beyond personality type. It's always hard to tell from forum posts because there's so much information we're missing.

[mind_wander]

*i know he liked me, he appeared irritated when he found out i was going out with someone else. i thought we were buddies. *then he disappeared for a bit. *since then, we've become better friends

I am not really an traditional INTJ, more like a mixed. Let me take a jab at this one. When I read just this by itself, for me its like a caution flag for non-INTJ's. As someone said, "INTJ's like honesty and don't like surprised secret dating. Now, I can't make up the assumption, its a secret date with another guy. For the choices for INTJ when it comes to relationships its is very few; I think every INTJ should know that by now and why we do horrible at it too. INTJ's I am not destroying our relationship dignity, thats why we got matching personality counterparts.

Back to what I was saying, "When he heard that you are meeting someone." This is whats clicking in my head, ok, so she wanted to find someone who suits her personality perfectly, outgoing, since she mentioned about liking hanging out in groups. Hmm, INTJ hanging out in groups, so not for me. Why, could she just slow it down and without having me to step out of my comfort zone. But, I respect her choice in picking out the right relationship partner; but it does not mean I can not be best friends with her. In my INTJ book thats not called cheating, its called social-networking, as long its not intimate. Once you said, "Ok, I wanted a real relationship." Now the INTJ is going through denial. So that person is not the right relationship partner, wow good for me. Oh man, that means I got to admit that I'm wrong and back to square one again, but it means I got a chance. How about she make the first move ?because INTJ does not like to make the first move.


Ok now said and done. Not sure, any of this makes sense. But yeah, some of the thought processes of that person is very realistic. Conclusion: YOu make the first move and be honest and sincere, then moved to topics of his choice [sad but true], then later throw in your favorite stuff. Find similar topics and other things in particular. Take small steps from there on. Everything in a INTJ life must be porportional.

You can start with the interests route, the old fashion compare and contrast. What kind of genre of tv shows, movies, etc. do each of you like? Then, ask yourself does any of these interests has a weakness or strength. When I'm referring to weakness, like things that just bores the heck out of him. As for strengths, wow I'm really hook on this, ok continue on. Something like in that nature. Understanding INTJ is complicated in terms of non-INTJ's, reason why we're kinda under the radar.

[ENFP is curious]

well he sent me a flirty text today and i responded and suggested we get together. that was hours ago (he's since replied to another text i sent) and i doubt he'll acknowledge what i said about getting together. this is where i get frustrated and confused. my 'lets-get-together' text wasn't coming out of nowhere, in fact he set it up for me to respond the way i did. so i did the obvious and now he backs off. what's an insecure ENFP woman to do?

[deicruxified]

well he sent me a flirty text today and i responded and suggested we get together. *that was hours ago (he's since replied to another text i sent) and i doubt he'll acknowledge what i said about getting together. *this is where i get frustrated and confused. *my 'lets-get-together' text wasn't coming out of nowhere, in fact he set it up for me to respond the way i did. *so i did the obvious and now he backs off. *what's an insecure ENFP woman to do?
i'm not a guy but i'll give you a scenario of what it's to be like with an intj as a spouse: we would definitely want a separate room for our own time. we do care for the people dear to us but we NEED time for ourselves it may mean forever but we DON'T forget. i do somehow got what you're guy is coming from because it's almost parallel to what happened to my bf. i was not sweet but i know i care. there have been times when i did not see him for 3 months because i don't want to see him. and even to the point of not greeting him "happy monthsary" because he wants to celebrate it but i REMEMBER. then he cheated so i asked for confirmation. he explained and asked for a second chance. having that experience, i was more cautious and more distant. until he ended things up with us because of "other complications"... there. i do hope you get to understand a bit because it's not always a world of reciprocation and assurance for us...

[mind_wander]

Here is some links references to INTJ:ENFP relationships:

This is a very good source: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
[This what made me come here]

Another:To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I hope this helps, alot of reading though.

[orange]

Bottom line is that you when he found out you were dating the other guy he hurt himself (he wont see it that way) and he doesn't want that to happen again. Therefore, he is more distant. Now that you are wanting to go out with him he is confused and/or, as some else said, wants to see you in diffrent enviroments to see if there is a real chance for the two of you.

I know that you've said that you understand his need for space, but make sure that your not CONSTANTLY asking him to spend time with you (NOTE: "constantly" to him will very diffrent from what you see as constantly). That could get annoying (or atleast it would be annoying to me).

For this last point, I'm going to the dark side. He may be palying with you, watching how you react to see where you truely stand.

no matter what the case is, be direct. "lets get together" is not direct. I'm sure that you want to do all of that face to face with him, but he may not give you the chance to do that seeing as he has been blowing you off when he says he is going to be there(which still has me confused). You may have to start with e-mail or IM.

--Guys, if I'm totally off base here feel free to fix what I've said. As perviously stated, I'm I am young *and VERY inexperianced in this area of life. lol, "feel free to fix what I've said".... as if you wouldnt anyways ;D

[mind_wander]

The listed above links should help, sure helped me. Especially, live journal sections. Also, the "lets get together" is kinda vague. Might want to rephrase, "Do you want to get together_____?" Give some kind of place/time/frame/quiet spot, J's are structured. As an INTJ, I know what you mean, but throw something in here. There is a problem here too, as "P" has no time frame in their sentences, which "J" have problems with and its not structured at all. Please do not take it personally or I make you cry. I am basing it on you 3 phrases: "Lets Get Together" In an INTJ mind, that can any thing. What do you mean? with a repeated phrase: "Lets Get Together?"

[ENFP is curious]

one other point - i've read on other threads that often INTJs don't like the phone. in the time i've known him we've talked on the phone 3 time: the 1st time, the day i met him; the 2nd, the time i went over to his place (to let him know he should let me in); the 3rd i called him one night and regretted it, it was very uncomfortable for me (an attempt to ask him to get together which backfired horribly). our main communication is now over text but occasionally on IM too. while this is all is fine, i'd love to throw in a phone convo every once in a while. is this a reasonable expectation?

[Jezebel]

one other point - i've read on other threads that often INTJs don't like the phone. in the time i've known him we've talked on the phone 3 time: the 1st time, the day i met him; the 2nd, the time i went over to his place (to let him know he should let me in); the 3rd i called him one night and regretted it, it was very uncomfortable for me (an attempt to ask him to get together which backfired horribly). our main communication is now over text but occasionally on IM too. while this is all is fine, i'd love to throw in a phone convo every once in a while. is this a reasonable expectation?
How far away does this guy live from you?

[ENFP is curious]

about 15 minutes away :)

[deicruxified]

I know that you've said that you understand his need for space, but make sure that your not CONSTANTLY asking him to spend time with you (NOTE: "constantly" to him will very diffrent from what you see as constantly). That could get annoying (or atleast it would be annoying to me).

exactly! you do not only have to understand but also ACCEPT the fact that he needs space. there's a difference between understanding and acceptance. i.e. many people nowadays understand what lgbt's (lesbian, gays, bi's and trannies) are but they do not accept them and let them be.

i do think you going out with other men has a great impact. i'll give you another real life scenario. exxx has a guy intj as a bestfriend. intj has wooed her for 9 years but she won't budge. she plays around and changes bf's every semester. there came a point when exxx fell in love with intj however intj found another girl which is 90% close to his ideal mate. what would a intj do?

i am not giving you the idea that your guy already found someone but there's a possibility. but the bottomline is ... (connect to orange)

[Jezebel]

Then I don't see the point of the phone conversations. Why not see each other in person if you want to talk away from IM? Honestly, fellow INTJ or not, if a guy doesn't want to talk to me off IM and he only lives 15 minutes away I'd move on. If a guy isn't willing to make any effort to spend time with me and turns down all my suggestions to do things together (and doesn't offer other options), I wouldn't waste my time with him.

[deicruxified]

Then I don't see the point of the phone conversations. Why not see each other in person if you want to talk away from IM? *Honestly, fellow INTJ or not, if a guy doesn't want to talk to me off IM and he only lives 15 minutes away I'd move on. If a guy isn't willing to make any effort to spend time with me and turns down all my suggestions to do things together (and doesn't offer other options), I wouldn't waste my time with him.
nuff zed... ditto.

[ShaiGar]

one other point - i've read on other threads that often INTJs don't like the phone. *in the time i've known him we've talked on the phone 3 time: the 1st time, the day i met him; *the 2nd, the time i went over to his place (to let him know he should let me in); the 3rd i called him one night and regretted it, it was very uncomfortable for me (an attempt to ask him to get together which backfired horribly). *our main communication is now over text but occasionally on IM too. *while this is all is fine, i'd love to throw in a phone convo every once in a while. *is this a reasonable expectation?
If he thinks that you're giving mixed messages then a phone call is too expensive. if he really likes you and thinks you're giving mixed messages then his emotions will be all over the place second guessing himself. "You're a girl so there's every possibility you could cheat on him, you didnt want him last time, who is to say you will now?" all sorts of evil thoughts will try and tear him down. so you might not be worth the phone call. Offer to skype instead.

I'm not calling you a cheating whore, but if his thoughts turn dark, his weak emotional side might think it. That is not a judgement on him either.

[blackout]

hi there new here.

*so hard for this ENFP to understand the rules of engagement but i'm certainly willing to do what it takes for this one.

As INTJ's we do not have "rules of engagement" when it comes to interpersonal relationships. *That would imply a game is being played and we dont waste time with what we consider irrational or illogical social rituals. *As previously mentioned, the best bet is to be 100% direct, no hints, no beating around the bush, no inferring. *If you tell us what you would like to happen, we will tell you exactly to what extent we are willing to accomidate you.

P.S. as a INTJ, i HATE talking on the phone, hate hate hate it.

[mind_wander]

one other point - i've read on other threads that often INTJs don't like the phone. *in the time i've known him we've talked on the phone 3 time: the 1st time, the day i met him; *the 2nd, the time i went over to his place (to let him know he should let me in); the 3rd i called him one night and regretted it, it was very uncomfortable for me (an attempt to ask him to get together which backfired horribly). *our main communication is now over text but occasionally on IM too. *while this is all is fine, i'd love to throw in a phone convo every once in a while. *is this a reasonable expectation?
I don't own a cellphone, so you know I don't like people calling me. However, the point your making that INTJ's don't like talking on the phone. It really depends, sometime its so hard to put it all out in words because its all bottled up. I guess using the phone conversations to let it all out, in the end still does not make sense.

Let me asked this question? Its not a dumb question either. You mentioned that you lived liked 15mins, very close approximity. How many times do you really invite yourself over and call/text him constantly?

[rwyatt365]

Bottom line is that you when he found out you were dating the other guy he hurt himself (he wont see it that way) and he doesn't want that to happen again. Therefore, he is more distant. Now that you are wanting to go out with him he is confused and/or, as some else said, wants to see you in diffrent enviroments to see if there is a real chance for the two of you.

I know that you've said that you understand his need for space, but make sure that your not CONSTANTLY asking him to spend time with you (NOTE: "constantly" to him will very diffrent from what you see as constantly). That could get annoying (or atleast it would be annoying to me).

For this last point, I'm going to the dark side. He may be palying with you, watching how you react to see where you truely stand.

no matter what the case is, be direct. "lets get together" is not direct. I'm sure that you want to do all of that face to face with him, but he may not give you the chance to do that seeing as he has been blowing you off when he says he is going to be there(which still has me confused). You may have to start with e-mail or IM.

--Guys, if I'm totally off base here feel free to fix what I've said. As perviously stated, I'm I am young and VERY inexperianced in this area of life. lol, "feel free to fix what I've said".... as if you wouldnt anyways ;D
orange, I think you're on the right track.

From an older INTJ guy's point of view…

The guy is scared! He has feelings for you, maybe feelings that are stronger than he's willing to admit and that's why he's scared. He knows that you were dating before and he may be unsure of what your current status is. He's unsure that what you say, and what "really is" may not be the same. That insecurity is driving his behavior.

While he's not in your presence he's free to (somewhat) express the feelings that he has. He can be flirtatious and coy by text messages because he's in his "protected place" (remember, INTJs write better than they talk in person). But put him face-to-face, and especially in a crowd, and he's liable to freeze up – so he avoids those circumstances. In fact, he's kinda afraid of being with you one-on-one because he might be "exposed" (literally and figuratively). You might find out that he does like you and then he'll have to do all of those b/f-g/f things that he feels he's so incompetent at. The thought of being exposed terrifies him, so he avoids and hides.

I agree with others in that you must be direct. "I want to get together" is not direct, that is a tease – it is being interpreted as, "I'm interested, but I want you to tell me how far you want to go". He, in turn is teasing you back. What you two are doing is "playing tag". If you really want him, you have to stop playing and get real. Tell him what the situation is, and what you want in no uncertain terms then back off and let him process the information. Also, you have to let him know that you understand (or want to learn to understand) his need for personal space. Tell him, "Take your time and let me know what you want. I'll be here when you're ready", and mean it. You will score big-time points doing that.

[mind_wander]

rwyatt365,
Perfect explaination *:thumbsup: As many INTJ's commented. The miscommuncation for an INTJ is kinda big here and must callibrate the train of thought. Here is some INTJ thought processes.

How do I know she is being serious about having a true relationship? She broke off with that person? What are my chances, she will do the same thing to me? I hate being rejected, life is so hard already, love my personal space and personal space does not reject me *:thumbsup: If I wanted to accepted her so called "True Relationship", but what happens then? What's my probability it will worked out between one another anyways? I do know the facts, she likes me, she invites herself in, text messenging, nothing seems wrong with this probability. Expect, that she rejected that person who dated with, it does destroy the probability chances of a true trustful relationship.

Conclusion: I rather be her friend, then a lover.


Here, maybe this is what that guy is thinking in his mind. See how complicated the INTJ train of thought. Everything has to be logical and the probability INTJ must be in his favor. Just one thing can throw it all off.

BTW, I just can't help it and post this music video by Akon-Don't Matter: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Seems this story kinda fit into this music video.

[ENFP is curious]

let me clear the air a little:

i do understand - and accept - his need for space. i'm a very shy/interoverted E, and occasionally test as an I. i have 2 introverted parents and often i will have 'lost weekends', where i shut off my phone and allow time for no one but myself. that is something i will always need to do on occasion. i would like to see him about once a week and don't think that's too much - i see him about every other week now. in retrospect, once i realized i had feelings for him, i did come on too strong - wanted to chat with him on IM every night and got pissy if i didnt get what i wanted. now i've backed off, adjusted my expectations to let him seek me out more, and it's better - and working! in fact yesterday we kept up the texts all throughout the day, about 20 total from him from morning til evening. that's a lot, even to someone like me who has a tendancy to be needy.

also, he knows i was dating different guys until july. then, and i told him this, i made the decision to focus on finding someone worth my time. i've made it clear when i'm home on the weekends by being online as much as possible, just so he'd see me. he's texted me on friday/saturday nights and i've replied, assuming he's wanting to see what/how i respond. at almost every possible opportunity i've let him know i'm not looking to play around and that although i do have wild friends (whom he knows), it's not a lifestyle for me. he's seen proof of this and i do think he believes i'm not out for booty calls.

[orange]

But put him face-to-face, and especially in a crowd, and he's liable to freeze up – so he avoids those circumstances. In fact, he's kinda afraid of being with you one-on-one because he might be "exposed" (literally and figuratively). You might find out that he does like you and then he'll have to do all of those b/f-g/f things that he feels he's so incompetent at. The thought of being exposed terrifies him, so he avoids and hides.

Thats reason #2 that I have avoided dating. reason #1 is that I dont truely have control over my own emotion when it shows itself, therefor emotion is probally my biggest fear.


Was going to relate to the relationship I want right now, but I dont want to expose myself that much to you all.

[orange]

let me clear the air a little:

i do understand - and accept - his need for space. *i'm a very shy/interoverted E, and occasionally test as an I. *i have 2 introverted parents and often i will have 'lost weekends', where i shut off my phone and allow time for no one but myself. *that is something i will always need to do on occasion. *i would like to see him about once a week and don't think that's too much - i see him about every other week now. *in retrospect, once i realized i had feelings for him, i did come on too strong - wanted to chat with him on IM every night and got pissy if i didnt get what i wanted. *now i've backed off, adjusted my expectations to let him seek me out more, and it's better - and working! *in fact yesterday we kept up the texts all throughout the day, about 20 total from him from morning til evening. *that's a lot, even to someone like me who has a tendancy to be needy. *

also, he knows i was dating different guys until july. *then, and i told him this, i made the decision to focus on finding someone worth my time. *i've made it clear when i'm home on the weekends by being online as much as possible, just so he'd see me. *he's texted me on friday/saturday nights and i've replied, assuming he's wanting to see what/how i respond. *at almost every possible opportunity i've let him know i'm not looking to play around and that although i do have wild friends (whom he knows), it's not a lifestyle for me. *he's seen proof of this and i do think he believes i'm not out for booty calls. *

Sounds to me like it might work out. Just keep doing what you are doing while he takes the time he needs to make up his mind and the find the courage to act on it. If he is very unconfortable with relationships this may take a VERY long time.

[mind_wander]

let me clear the air a little:

i do understand - and accept - his need for space. *i'm a very shy/interoverted E, and occasionally test as an I. *i have 2 introverted parents and often i will have 'lost weekends', where i shut off my phone and allow time for no one but myself. *that is something i will always need to do on occasion. *i would like to see him about once a week and don't think that's too much - i see him about every other week now. *in retrospect, once i realized i had feelings for him, i did come on too strong - wanted to chat with him on IM every night and got pissy if i didnt get what i wanted. *now i've backed off, adjusted my expectations to let him seek me out more, and it's better - and working! *in fact yesterday we kept up the texts all throughout the day, about 20 total from him from morning til evening. *that's a lot, even to someone like me who has a tendancy to be needy. *
also, he knows i was dating different guys until july. *then, and i told him this, i made the decision to focus on finding someone worth my time. *i've made it clear when i'm home on the weekends by being online as much as possible, just so he'd see me. *he's texted me on friday/saturday nights and i've replied, assuming he's wanting to see what/how i respond. *at almost every possible opportunity i've let him know i'm not looking to play around and that although i do have wild friends (whom he knows), it's not a lifestyle for me. *he's seen proof of this and i do think he believes i'm not out for booty calls. *

Ok, the first bolded sentence made much more sense now. INTJ's hates when someone's with high emotions, send off mellow emotions; things run smoother that way. As for the second, that sound about right, you give him the space he wanted so badly, once a week sounds about right[lonely time, clear your mind], so then he can send you more lovely text messages. Third bold, well I threw that one for kicks, I've find that last sentence for a laugh *;D

So we all INTJ's kinda were leading you to the right direction, concluded that he wanted you as a friend, as compared to a lover. I hope we INTJ's were helpful.

One more thing, I've heard "E"'s has admit that their more towards "I's" because of shyness. I find that kinda odd because isn't "I's" should be the shy one's? Oh well, but I truely understand what you mean.

[ENFP is curious]

would an INTJ send flirty texts to someone they wanted just as a friend?

[Firelie]

would an INTJ send flirty texts to someone they wanted just as a friend?

I have. ;)

[iamnotspock]

INTJ or not, this guy is stringing you along. all you got is an IM relationship. is that what you want?

i'm sure it's great for his ego that you are always there for flirty text msg's. but you are wasting your time. either he didn't like that one encounter, or he can't deal with competition and just wants to punish you.

to be honest, i've done both. if I were a better man, I wouldn't have. but despite what you read here, INTJ != superman

[mind_wander]

That's what I've concluded so far, INTJ's stick to the strengths, as for the weakness let not go there. More pain and sorrow. I think the flirtious text messages is pretty much his control and gain, but not sure how long this gonna last. However, we just put him into the friendship category for now. Unless, he admit darn it, what am I doing? Let me invite myself into her life. Ok, then I can see that he is more serious about having a relationship.

[rwyatt365]

That's what I've concluded so far, INTJ's stick to the strengths, as for the weakness let not go there. More pain and sorrow. I think the flirtious text messages is pretty much his control and gain, but not sure how long this gonna last. However, we just put him into the friendship category for now. Unless, he admit darn it, what am I doing? Let me invite myself into her life. Ok, then I can see that he is more serious about having a relationship.
If you let him, he'll keep it at this level forever. It's safe, it's easy and it's non-commital. INTJs (whether we want to admit it or not) are playful - in a strange kinda way. Flirting by text message is like a game of hide-n-seek. The more coy and obscure you are, the better the "game", it becomes an intellectual challenge to get you to "break cover".

If you want "something more" you'll have to call him out.

[ENFP is curious]

2 saturdays ago we went out for a couple of drinks and a quick bite to eat. shortly after i got home, the texts started flying. one asked when i was going to come over and keep him company. i responded 'whenever you want!' - which clearly to me NOW, wasn't direct enough. he said 'aww that's sweet' and was flirty. he left for a biz trip a few days later. he texted me throughout the whole trip, including when he was sitting on the runway on the way back and when he got home late that night. last saturday he was supposed to go to a halloween event i was attending (we both went to events this group hosts before we really knew each other well) we discussed getting a room at the hotel where it was being held (his idea, NOT mine) and after some discussion we decided no on that. he said he'd be there and wasn't, said the next day he had zonked out early due to jetlag (totally understandable but i wasn't thrilled).

over the past month or so, he's stepped up contact with me - i hear from him every day, 90% of the time he contacts me first. lately it's been all throughout the day - we flirt, have intellectual convos and exchange silly thoughts.

you all are bascially saying the same thing - it's now stuck until i nudge it forward. i agree, hence my creating this thread. i'm seeing him on tuesday, we're going to a movie. i've never ever been good at showing my cards first, in my past experiences men have always been the ones to take charge. this guy stumps me because when we're together he does get just ever-so-slightly touchy-feely with me and i see he's not like that with others, he's thrown hints around, and when i was over at his place that time he was the one who made a move on me first. i understand i need to lay it out (and will muster up the guts to do it) but i'm terrified of rejection. he KNOWS i like him - i've told him - and he says he likes me too. but for some reason that's just not enough for me, maybe because of him saying no the one time i suggested i come over (that was a few months ago).

i realize text may not be the best way to start this convo with him, but any suggestions on what i can say to lay some groundwork?

[Firelie]

Have you ever just....asked him what his intentions are...?

[ENFP is curious]

is text acceptable to ask him that type of question? *or will he doubt my sincerity?

[Firelie]

It would probably be better in person. There's less chance of him wiggling out of the question if you can look him in the eyes while you ask.

[maai]

I'm no expert, but my wife is an ESFP (see the photo on the forum) and we have had a Lonnnng and happy marriage. I told my children the following when they were dating:
1. There are approximately 5 people in your lifetime with whom you will immediately "click". The others will just be practice.
2. If you do not socialize you will never find them.
3. You both will know the "click". Believe me. When it's only single sided it won't last.
4. Grab them and hold on "but not too tightly" as the song goes.
5. Love them no matter what.
6. Commit to them no matter what.
7. Give them room to grow and encourage their interests, even if they come home dressed as a clown.

[xtremegeek]

I'm no expert, but my wife is an ESFP (see the photo on the forum) and we have had a Lonnnng and happy marriage. I told my children the following when they were dating:
1. There are approximately 5 people in your lifetime with whom you will immediately "click". The others will just be practice.
2. If you do not socialize you will never find them.
3. You both will know the "click". Believe me. When it's only single sided it won't last.
4. Grab them and hold on "but not too tightly" as the song goes.
5. Love them no matter what.
6. Commit to them no matter what.
7. Give them room to grow and encourage their interests, even if they come home dressed as a clown.

Maai, how long is "lonnnng?" How long did you date prior to marrying? Was there ever a period prior to marriage when you two broke up, dated other people, but then got back together?

[maai]

37 years, 1yr, No
Met her while playing football on the quad at college. We asked her and girlfriends if they wanted to play. I got to talking with her, instant "click".

[Unknown]

Since you're an ENFP here are two simple rules to follow when you want to date an INT*

1. Be Honest and Direct
2. You'll never know him even if you're married. Not completely.



As a married INTJ, I agree with your observations here. *I appreciate honesty and directness because I tend to be either oblivious or I'm avoiding making assumptions.

And as far as the second statement is concerned...EXACTLY!

[iamnotspock]

ENFP - It is called the kiss test. You kiss ... usually her, but in this case, him. Does he kiss you back?

You can do it like this:

"btw, there is something I want to tell you..."
-- what?
"close your eyes..."
-- why?
"you'll see. do it."
-- either does or does not. if not, is already telling you something...
"no peeking..."
-- bla bla
(play around with it for a minute to heighten the tension)
...
(then, kiss him on the lips)

now, what happens?

EITHER he can't believe you just did that. In which case you have a friend. Or, he wants more, in which case you have a boyfriend.

Anyway, one kiss is worth a thousand text msg's...

Good luck!

[OneBadMother]

It might depend on the INTJ too. Kissing him might make for a perfect way to end a friendship, though the little interlude into it might make it better. *shrug*

Telling him outright is probably the best thing to do. Probably in person. Then he can't dodge.

[mind_wander]

Lol, kinda true. We all know what's the next step after that, yeah INTJ's like to cut to the chase.

[mind_wander]

2 saturdays ago we went out for a couple of drinks and a quick bite to eat. *shortly after i got home, the texts started flying. *one asked when i was going to come over and keep him company. *i responded 'whenever you want!' - which clearly to me NOW, wasn't direct enough. *he said 'aww that's sweet' and was flirty. *he left for a biz trip a few days later. *he texted me throughout the whole trip, including when he was sitting on the runway on the way back and when he got home late that night. last saturday he was supposed to go to a halloween event i was attending (we both went to events this group hosts before we really knew each other well) we discussed getting a room at the hotel where it was being held (his idea, NOT mine) and after some discussion we decided no on that. *he said he'd be there and wasn't, said the next day he had zonked out early due to jetlag (totally understandable but i wasn't thrilled). *

over the past month or so, he's stepped up contact with me - i hear from him every day, 90% of the time he contacts me first. *lately it's been all throughout the day - we flirt, have intellectual convos and exchange silly thoughts. *

you all are bascially saying the same thing - it's now stuck until i nudge it forward. *i agree, hence my creating this thread. *i'm seeing him on tuesday, we're going to a movie. *i've never ever been good at showing my cards first, in my past experiences men have always been the ones to take charge. *this guy stumps me because when we're together he does get just ever-so-slightly touchy-feely with me and i see he's not like that with others, he's thrown hints around, and when i was over at his place that time he was the one who made a move on me first. *i understand i need to lay it out (and will muster up the guts to do it) but i'm terrified of rejection. *he KNOWS i like him - i've told him - and he says he likes me too. *but for some reason that's just not enough for me, maybe because of him saying no the one time i suggested i come over (that was a few months ago).

i realize text may not be the best way to start this convo with him, but any suggestions on what i can say to lay some groundwork?
Yeah, don't expect INTJ's to step up first, female or guy. Not our thing, however you did the right thing by accepting our tips. You did give him space, then you step up[odd, most guys would do that, hey thats life]. Its like this a Chess game, you move a piece, then he moved a piece. Take one step forward, depending on the right circumstances [accounting all those othervariables, which is important for an INTJ needed to take care of] will then moved forward. When things are not done with INTJ's and you wanted to moved forward again, guess happens here? He moved backward. Yeah, its pretty much a chess game. INTJ's wants to have all the pieces in his hands, before making the next move. But, I am giving you a B for effort :thumbsup:, due to INTJ's miscommunications from left to right; something we'd like to create. Don't give up, be very patient, at least he's breaking his hermit shell :)

[ENFP is curious]

he has kissed me - once - all on his own. *once prior too, but that was 100% my doing. *the issue is, he's not kissed me since that last time and every time we part ways there's *that* moment - the awkward one where we look at each other like, WELL? *i've been too chicken to really do anything about it but i guess i need to suck it up. *again, i'm used to the man dictating moves based on signals i know i'm showing. *

latest- he sent me a text today that had a quick response to something i had sent earlier (after he texted me this am, just FYI) and then a single word - our favorite cocktail with a question mark. *i thought he may be asking me to join him for a drink (we've often done this on friday, kind of our usual thing) but it really wasn't absolutely clear to me. *so i wrote back and asked, are you asking if i'm having a cocktail tonight or if i'd like to join you for one? *he responded and said, i was thinking tonight but that's ok if you can't make it. *unfortuantely i do have other plans with a girlfriend - which i had casually mentioned to him yesterday- so i wrote him and said i'd love to make it but can't, how about saturday or sunday? he said ok, sunday's better will let you know tomorrow. *

so now i need to get myself all geared up to have a straight talk with him inbetween round one and two on sunday, assuming he'll confirm. *i'm nervous that he'll say he doesn't want what i want. *would he attempt to see me on his own if he really wanted just a friendship, given all i've told you?

[mind_wander]

Well, have you ever thought of this. Since, you both already like each other. How trying the INTJ nod? The INTJ nod is you first tell him, ok lets be realistic here. If you really like me, as for romance, then just nod. If you don't, but be friends, then thats fine with me. Also, explain why by writing on this piece of paper, the certain reasons on why not to be a romantic partner. Since, INTJ rather write then speak.

[undeniablyINTJ]

First off, I am a 37 yr happily married INTJ. I still remember my dating experiences (I"m not too old :)). Maybe this will help.

If I was this guy, then I'd obviously like you as a close friend, at least. Sometimes I wouldn't ask if she would be my girlfriend and other times I would. Sometimes I wanted to date without being exclusive and other times I did. Sometimes I enjoyed the companionship, but didn't want it to get serious because I knew it wasn't necessary. As an INTJ, I've always tried to take a logical chess move in relationships. If I thought it would badly hurt if they dated someone else, I would ask for commitment (would you be my girlfriend). On the other hand, I wouldn't respect a girl if she tried to make me jealous. Like if she said she wanted to know if she should go out with another guy to a dance, I would take that badly. I suggest being doting and acting interested in a relationship, but hold back on the sex.

Best of Luck.

[ENFP is curious]

got confirmation we're having cocktails tomorrow. so. now i get to have the 'what is going on here' talk. and i'm NERVOUS! we've known each other since summer of '06 and have been in pretty close contact since july of this year - over the past few months we've become closer. i'm really scared that he doesn't want what i want and it'll destroy our friendship. but, i can't keep up with this much longer either because it'll kill me to remain stuck in this quasi-dating situation. so let's say i muster up the courage to tell him what i want, ask him what he wants and make it clear to him i'm not looking for an immediate answer (so he can go rationalize it all). how long should i expect this to take? a few weeks?

[undeniablyINTJ]

I have two questions. 1) Does he call it a date when he takes you out? and 2)does he pay?

[ShaiGar]

Does it matter if he pays? Sometimes I pay when it isnt a date, and I never pay if it is. Female Equality and all that.

[undeniablyINTJ]

I think it matters if it isn't a date. Usually it's up to the guy to make moves in the relationship, and if he pays (and consistently does) then he is acting like it's a date.

[ENFP is curious]

good question. have no idea if he calls us getting together dates.

but ever since we had the chat where i told him i liked him, he said he liked me and asked me what i wanted (i said i wanted someone to get to know, no instant boyfriend or relationship), he's paid (last time i paid though) and he's walked me to my car and given me a hug goodbye. before when we'd meet for drinks we'd split the tab and part ways with just a 'see ya' inside the restaurant. so there is a difference. and since a month or so ago a friend of mine basically told him to shit or get off the pot with me, he's been in contact with me every day. so i see signs but it's confusing still when actions aren't backing everything up and when things are hinted at and i *think* i'm responding appropriately, but then issues are suddenly dropped

have to say i'm learning a lot in this forum.

[xtremegeek]

good question. *have no idea if he calls us getting together dates.

but ever since we had the chat where i told him i liked him, he said he liked me and asked me what i wanted (i said i wanted someone to get to know, no instant boyfriend or relationship), he's paid (last time i paid though) and he's walked me to my car and given me a hug goodbye. *before when we'd meet for drinks we'd split the tab and part ways with just a 'see ya' inside the restaurant. so there is a difference. *and since a month or so ago a friend of mine basically told him to shit or get off the pot with me, he's been in contact with me every day. *so i see signs but it's confusing still when actions aren't backing everything up and when things are hinted at and i *think* i'm responding appropriately, but then issues are suddenly dropped

have to say i'm learning a lot in this forum.

Why don't you ask him what his definition of a date is? Then ask him what his ideal date would be.

The INTJ I dated had no problems telling me we were on a date. What I didn't understand was that all our e-mails and phone calls were also considered dates to him. So by the time we went out together for the first time, to him, this was more like the 20th date, where as I looked at it as the first date. It's important to ask for clarifications from INTJs. If you don't have them spell things out, they'll live in their inner world and will be 10 steps ahead of you, wondering why you don't get them. The good news is, INTJs don't seem to mind when you ask them to define things and set boundaries. But it's up to you to recognize the need to have those conversations and initiate them.

[GOD]

good question. *have no idea if he calls us getting together dates.

but ever since we had the chat where i told him i liked him, he said he liked me and asked me what i wanted (i said i wanted someone to get to know, no instant boyfriend or relationship), he's paid (last time i paid though) and he's walked me to my car and given me a hug goodbye. *before when we'd meet for drinks we'd split the tab and part ways with just a 'see ya' inside the restaurant. so there is a difference. *and since a month or so ago a friend of mine basically told him to shit or get off the pot with me, he's been in contact with me every day. *so i see signs but it's confusing still when actions aren't backing everything up and when things are hinted at and i *think* i'm responding appropriately, but then issues are suddenly dropped

have to say i'm learning a lot in this forum.

What you should realise is that less social guys are not going to have a well developed scense of what is normal group behaviour.

Guys are less "feely" to start with. And the T and J pretty much mean they are looking for a script or menu (maybe more a user manual) on how to get "feely" with women.

I'd say that women probably need to be more "mates" with a guy INTJ and then move it some definition of a relationship over time. Too many F women want expression of undying love and eternal connection within a few weeks....

Another thing, most INTJ guys I would expect can pretty much assess whether you are suitable for a potential relationship before you even go on the first date. Many women have commented on my oblique questioning which I use to assess potential before I even get anywhere the notion of a date. They say I treat it like a job interview.... well? It's like a job isn't it? :-X

[orange]

It's important to ask for clarifications from INTJs. *If *you don't have them spell things out, they'll live in their inner world and will be 10 steps ahead of you, wondering why you don't get them. *The good news is, INTJs don't seem to mind when you ask them to define things and set boundaries. *But it's up to you to recognize the need to have those conversations and initiate them.

This is what is starting to make me mad. The girl I like (not dating) wont ask about anything like that and when I ask question hinting that I need to talk about that kind of thing with her, she answers the shortest possible answer and move to polar opposite subject. I don't want to, but I think I might have to hit her with blunt force speach cause she wont step up and help out relationship (which exsists only in my head) out!
...and yes, she likes me too so I'm not totally delusional.

They say I treat it like a job interview.... well? It's like a job isn't it? :-X


If it wasn't a job we wouldn't have to work at it. Luckally (for others) we enjoy working just so that we can have more things to wrap our heads around.

[xtremegeek]

This is what is starting to make me mad. The girl I like (not dating) wont ask about anything like that and when I ask question hinting that I need to talk about that kind of thing with her, she answers the shortest possible answer and move to polar opposite subject. I don't want to, but I think I might have to hit her with blunt force speach cause she wont step up and help out relationship (which exsists only in my head) out! *
...and yes, she likes me too so I'm not totally delusional.

Orange, all I can tell you is how I've approached my dating career. *My first LTR was with an ESFJ. *He did all the talking and asked for whatever clarification he wanted to suit his world, but he still didn't have a clue about my inner world. *The next LTR was with an ENFP. *He had a great ability to read my mind and know what to ask me and was able to initiate conversations which I didn't want to talk about, but he knew how to do it in a non-threatening way. *When he died, I never felt so alone, and didn't date for two years. *Then I went through a series of relationships with ESFJs and ESFPs - all short-lived and all miserable for me. *So, I switched to dating introverts, only to discover that I had not sharpened my skills at initiating and maintaining conversations about topics which were important to the relationship. *It's a skill which does not come natural to most introverts, so if you really like this gal, then you will have to find away to get her to talk on a level that you both are comfortable with...you may find yourself helping her along a bit, but relationships do require work... *

My current tactic with an INTJ is to say, "I'm going to ask you some questions but if you don't want to answer them right now, that's ok." *Sometimes he doesn't want to answer the question right then, but a few days later he'll bring the subject up, which let's him feel "in control of" these sticky, relationship-type conversations. *

Hope this helps...

rwyatt365; Edited to fix quote

[ENFP is curious]

so i saw him last night. he was extremely affectionate and it was nice. i didn't think it was appropriate to bring up the 'where is this headed' talk and instead let things lie where they were, i didn't want to overload him. i know he enjoyed himself too and texted me within an hour of parting ways thanking me for a good time. i responded accordingly and will back off now. ironically we're supposed to see a movie tomorrow but i'm wondering if that may be too much - we had set the movie up prior to seeing each other last night.

i know not to rush things now and understand he'll need time to process the time we spent together. he said a few things that i found interesting - he let me know once again he's not had anyone around in a while whom he's as comfortable with as he is with me. i'm really trying hard not to read too much into that, but i found it intruiging also that he started telling me things about himself that i'm sure he's not told anyone else. things that i think he's ashamed of or at least bothered him.

i do want to move this towards a committed relationship but wonder about the pace of it. i guess time will tell for now.

[orange]

so i saw him last night. *he was extremely affectionate and it was nice. *i didn't think it was appropriate to bring up the 'where is this headed' talk and instead let things lie where they were, i didn't want to overload him. *i know he enjoyed himself too and texted me within an hour of parting ways thanking me for a good time. *i responded accordingly and will back off now. *ironically we're supposed to see a movie tomorrow but i'm wondering if that may be too much - we had set the movie up prior to seeing each other last night.

i know not to rush things now and understand he'll need time to process the time we spent together. *he said a few things that i found interesting - he let me know once again he's not had anyone around in a while whom he's as comfortable with as he is with me. i'm really trying hard not to read too much into that, but i found it intruiging also that he started telling me things about himself that i'm sure he's not told anyone else. things that i think he's ashamed of or at least bothered him.

i do want to move this towards a committed relationship but wonder about the pace of it. *i guess time will tell for now.

Sounds to me like your relationship is comming along nicely.
As for the movies, it was prearranged. Don't worry about it, it's usally best to keep plans that are made.
The last part of that quote that I put in bold there is HUGE! it means a lot if an INTJ will open up to you!

lastly, thank you xtremegeek.

[mind_wander]

Orange, Agreed on the bolded side, not all INTJ's open up like that, so :thumbsup: BTW, too me, while reading this problem in my mind its like watching a INTJ/ENFP relationship movie by its own.

[Henry]

good question. *have no idea if he calls us getting together dates.

but ever since we had the chat where i told him i liked him, he said he liked me and asked me what i wanted (i said i wanted someone to get to know, no instant boyfriend or relationship), he's paid (last time i paid though) and he's walked me to my car and given me a hug goodbye. *before when we'd meet for drinks we'd split the tab and part ways with just a 'see ya' inside the restaurant. so there is a difference. *and since a month or so ago a friend of mine basically told him to shit or get off the pot with me, he's been in contact with me every day. *so i see signs but it's confusing still when actions aren't backing everything up and when things are hinted at and i *think* i'm responding appropriately, but then issues are suddenly dropped

have to say i'm learning a lot in this forum.


You have to remember that a lot of INTJs - myself included - are almost totally oblivious to subtle social cues and rituals. *You may need to be direct. He's also unlikely clear of what signals he is sending, and hence your confusion. *Or it may be game...if he has a high need for power and for achievement, as many INTJs do, then its almost certain he's interested in seduction, the most effective trick in seduction being to send mixed signals.

I would express the interest and see if anything comes back. *I would not ask "Where is this going" as that's an open ended feeling question which usually shuts me down.

[bucolic_]

so i saw him last night. he was extremely affectionate and it was nice. i didn't think it was appropriate to bring up the 'where is this headed' talk and instead let things lie where they were, i didn't want to overload him. i know he enjoyed himself too and texted me within an hour of parting ways thanking me for a good time. i responded accordingly and will back off now. ironically we're supposed to see a movie tomorrow but i'm wondering if that may be too much - we had set the movie up prior to seeing each other last night.

i know not to rush things now and understand he'll need time to process the time we spent together. he said a few things that i found interesting - he let me know once again he's not had anyone around in a while whom he's as comfortable with as he is with me. i'm really trying hard not to read too much into that, but i found it intruiging also that he started telling me things about himself that i'm sure he's not told anyone else. things that i think he's ashamed of or at least bothered him.

i do want to move this towards a committed relationship but wonder about the pace of it. i guess time will tell for now.

Sounds to me like your relationship is comming along nicely.
As for the movies, it was prearranged. Don't worry about it, it's usally best to keep plans that are made.
The last part of that quote that I put in bold there is HUGE! it means a lot if an INTJ will open up to you!

lastly, thank you xtremegeek.

Yeah, if he's opened up to you, then it probably means something. I don't even open up much with my "close" friends. There's five people in my house right now, and I only really open up to one, and even with him it's pretty limited. Opening up is reserved for only a very small number of people.

[xtremegeek]

good question. *have no idea if he calls us getting together dates.

but ever since we had the chat where i told him i liked him, he said he liked me and asked me what i wanted (i said i wanted someone to get to know, no instant boyfriend or relationship), he's paid (last time i paid though) and he's walked me to my car and given me a hug goodbye. *before when we'd meet for drinks we'd split the tab and part ways with just a 'see ya' inside the restaurant. so there is a difference. *and since a month or so ago a friend of mine basically told him to shit or get off the pot with me, he's been in contact with me every day. *so i see signs but it's confusing still when actions aren't backing everything up and when things are hinted at and i *think* i'm responding appropriately, but then issues are suddenly dropped

have to say i'm learning a lot in this forum.


You have to remember that a lot of INTJs - myself included - are almost totally oblivious to subtle social cues and rituals. *You may need to be direct. *He's also unlikely clear of what signals he is sending, and hence your confusion. *Or it may be game...if he has a high need for power and for achievement, as many INTJs do, then its almost certain he's interested in seduction, the most effective trick in seduction being to send mixed signals. *

I would express the interest and see if anything comes back. *I would not ask "Where is this going" as that's an open ended feeling question which usually shuts me down.

Power, seduction, achievement...yes very much what an INTJ would be looking for. But be careful, if he thinks that he's conquered you and he can manipulate you to respond however he wants, then he'll dump you because you are no longer a challenge to him. That's an immature INTJ; a more mature INTJ has no need for such power games - he knows what he wants and you're either it or you're not and he should be able to state that rather succintly.

[ENFP is curious]

he's mid 40's and i don't see power games as an issue with him. i think the core issues are that i was trying to have things happen on my schedule, not taking into account that he's still stinging from me turning him down in the past, in addition to his INTJ ways of needing space and coming into things on his own.

[xtremegeek]

he's mid 40's and i don't see power games as an issue with him. *i think the core issues are that i was trying to have things happen on my schedule, not taking into account that he's still stinging from me turning him down in the past, in addition to his INTJ ways of needing space and coming into things on his own.



Mid 40's - divorced?

[ENFP is curious]

never married.

[xtremegeek]

No divorce baggage is a good thing. Yep, I agree with you he's stinging from the initial rejection. He's making you work extra hard the second time around. Well good luck to you.

[orange]

Sounds like we are all in agreement. The only thing left is time. You've figured out how it works and seem to be doing things right.

Good luck ENFP! Glad we could help.

[ENFP is curious]

yup thanks so much everyone! so far so good! we'll see what happens.

i'm still learning about how to best communicate with him without compromising what i want or taking things too personally that aren't intended as such.

i guess the question i have for now is, how long can i reasonably expect the rationalizing stage to last?

[OneBadMother]

Rationalizing on your part or his? If it's on his part, expect rationalization to continue for a very long time, if not the rest of his life. This doesn't mean he'll like you any less.

[ENFP is curious]

what i meant was, how long should i expect him to rationalize about what he wants from me and is ready to discuss?

[jtskinner]

You won't know, INTJs don't show a lot of emotion or feelings. Also are you sure your interested in INTJs? They are theoretical and philosophical folk, they care more for the book and the mind then the heart and romance. They are logical, they suppress emotion, they avoid it at all costs. They are not physically affectionate, they will not ask you how you feel or constantly hug/kiss you. And they argue to the death. I don't know if other INTJs agree but that's how it is with me. Nevermind, I didn't see the other posts...

[rwyatt365]

what i meant was, how long should i expect him to rationalize about what he wants from me and is ready to discuss?
perhaps the better word would be "contemplate". I'm afraid he's on his own personal timeclock there. With most INTJs we can see the inner workings of things, come to a conclusion, and work out a viable strategy fairly quickly. Unfortunately, some of us (myslef included) can be somewhat dumbfounded when it comes to evaluating emotional inputs (from others, as well as ourselves) and making an appropriate response.

Just continue to be alluring and interested and he'll come around. He probably already knows what he wants (you, let's hope), he just doesn't know how to tell you. Let him know that you're open to whatever he might say, however he might say it. The truth be told, INTJ men are terrified of rejection (guys, did I give away our secret?!) and will do foolish things to remain in a "first strike" position ("I'll cut her off before she has a chance to tell me I'm history").

[ENFP is curious]

hmmmm ok thanks rwyatt. i think it's really evident even to clueless me where things are pointing, i just need to sit tight and wait it out for now. still hearing from him every day, usually throughout the day when he has a moment. yesterday he told me a text i sent him made his day.

as long as i have a pretty good idea what is to come i'm ok and patient. it's the not-knowing that just kills me.

[mind_wander]

what i meant was, how long should i expect him to rationalize about what he wants from me and is ready to discuss?
perhaps the better word would be "contemplate". I'm afraid he's on his own personal timeclock there. With most INTJs we can see the inner workings of things, come to a conclusion, and work out a viable strategy fairly quickly. Unfortunately, some of us (myslef included) can be somewhat dumbfounded when it comes to evaluating emotional inputs (from others, as well as ourselves) and making an appropriate response.

Just continue to be alluring and interested and he'll come around. He probably already knows what he wants (you, let's hope), he just doesn't know how to tell you. Let him know that you're open to whatever he might say, however he might say it. The truth be told, INTJ men are terrified of rejection (guys, did I give away our secret?!) and will do foolish things to remain in a "first strike" position ("I'll cut her off before she has a chance to tell me I'm history").
Nope, you didn't give the secret away, but don't like to be rejected. However, to be logical here, if it does not work out, then end the relationship before you got a hot coal up your you know what!

[xtremegeek]

You won't know, INTJs don't show a lot of emotion or feelings. Also are you sure your interested in INTJs? They are theoretical and philosophical folk, they care more for the book and the mind then the heart and romance. They are logical, they suppress emotion, they avoid it at all costs. They are not physically affectionate, they will not ask you how you feel or constantly hug/kiss you. And they argue to the death. I don't know if other INTJs agree but that's how it is with me. Nevermind, I didn't see the other posts...

But INTJs are smart, loyal, great problem solvers, can have a wicked sense of humor, neat freaks, pay their bills on time, and love to plan. Who needs romance when you can have all that?!

[jtskinner]

Exactly.

[undeniablyINTJ]

I agree, the rationalizing will go on forever.

I would ask him at some point if you two are "dating", and then later if the answer is yes ask if you are "dating exclusively". I remember having women ask this, and I didn't mind. It's fair, especially after hanging out a lot.

[TheLoneINTJ]

I dont know if this is the same for the other INTJ guys in here but this works on me all the time, like melting butter. When you are both together and watching a movie (or something that is keeping the main part of his attention), make a very subtle and indirect move. Every human being on the planet likes genuine affection from someone else but for INTJ, remember, less IS actually more. Take your finger and just casually rub the top of his hand, ear or back of neck. Or maybe sit close or lay your head on his lap in a casual manner. Dont advance any further than that. His brain will start churning away and take care of the rest of the work for you.

Just dont rush anything. Not what you are going to do but, for example: You cant just throw off your clothes off and rush on top bc, although the visual is a major factor, generally, there is a mental checklist that has to go through first.

Do it like as buddies, so to speak, and let him get accustomed to you delicately in his bubble and he will when/if give you an indication. In a relationship you probably never hear 'Baby I love you you are wonderful' from him, if you do it will come in the form of something completely unrelated like a sigh/pat or whatever. Actually probably the best I have been able to do, and this was in a long term relationship, was a a vocal 'uhhh' when asked while doing you-know-what. But you can look forward to staunch loyalty, honesty, and a willingness to consistently work at at it. And, if the relationship is not working for you or him, after a thorough analysis, he will likely spare both of you the agony and end it before it gets very bad.

Does this assessment apply to other INTJs?

[ENFP is curious]

thanks theloneintj. i do think much of what you've suggested is already happening, to an extent.

because i'm pretty sure he doesn't like PDA i usually let him be the one to initiate any sort of physical contact when we're out. for example, last night we met a friend of mine (and his too, sort of) for drinks and dessert. he sat next to me and had his knee pressed up against mine the whole time. he also had his shoulder/arm next to mine most of the evening, when he was able to, anyway. this was all sort of new and just really nice. of course when we said goodbye he was back to his old self - just a quick hug and that was it. i know now that he's just being shy and wanting to take things at a snail's pace. not ideal for me, but i'm learning how to be patient. when he and i are alone it's a different story. he's flirty and affectionate. the problem is, right now we're not alone much - i sincerely doubt he'd be comfortable at my place at this stage and he needs a lot of time to himself. that i've seen him 2 weekends in a row is progress so i'm just enjoying that much at the moment.

he and i made plans last night and i let him know it would have to be later than our usual meeting time because i was having an early dinner with a friend. he suggested she join us. this spoke volumes to me - means he really is trying to integrate into my world (he's known her just on a very casual basis for a while, and he knows she and i are very close friends).

i do think he thinks we're dating now based on how he is with me when we're out and that he's in touch with me every day, usually off and on throughout the day. i'm in touch with him more than i am anyone, except for my best friend. he's got to see where this is headed, it's just a matter of it all happening when the time is right. unfortunately, for me the time has been right since july. LOL

[mind_wander]

I dont know if this is the same for the other INTJ guys in here but this works on me all the time, like melting butter. When you are both together and watching a movie (or something that is keeping the main part of his attention), make a very subtle and indirect move. Every human being on the planet likes genuine affection from someone else but for INTJ, remember, less IS actually more. Take your finger and just casually rub the top of his hand, ear or back of neck. Or maybe sit close or lay your head on his lap in a casual manner. Dont advance any further than that. His brain will start churning away and take care of the rest of the work for you.

Just dont rush anything. Not what you are going to do but, for example: You cant just throw off your clothes off and rush on top bc, although the visual is a major factor, generally, there is a mental checklist that has to go through first. *

Do it like as buddies, so to speak, and let him get accustomed to you delicately in his bubble and he will when/if give you an indication. In a relationship you probably never hear 'Baby I love you you are wonderful' from him, if you do it will come in the form of something completely unrelated like a sigh/pat or whatever. Actually probably the best I have been able to do, and this was in a long term relationship, was a a vocal 'uhhh' when asked while doing you-know-what. *But you can look forward to staunch loyalty, honesty, and a willingness to consistently work at at it. And, if the relationship is not working for you or him, after a thorough analysis, he will likely spare both of you the agony and end it before it gets very bad.

Does this assessment apply to other INTJs?




I am a INTJ guy, I was thinking like that before, lol. Interesting analysis, I like that; in terms, it would be nicer, if female would do that in closer to those terms, lets chat; slowly leading to it. The chating are more toward similarities, once the check list is packed, uh thinking in my mind, so who goes first again? If INTJ's don't like to go first, hmm mind thinking, old term, "Ladies goes first, after you miss." It is true, before anything heading toward the wrong direction, INTJ end it ASAP *:thumbsup:

[mind_wander]

thanks theloneintj. *i do think much of what you've suggested is already happening, to an extent. *

because i'm pretty sure he doesn't like PDA i usually let him be the one to initiate any sort of physical contact when we're out. *for example, last night we met a friend of mine (and his too, sort of) for drinks and dessert. *he sat next to me and had his knee pressed up against mine the whole time. *he also had his shoulder/arm next to mine most of the evening, when he was able to, anyway. *this was all sort of new and just really nice. *of course when we said goodbye he was back to his old self - just a quick hug and that was it. *i know now that he's just being shy and wanting to take things at a snail's pace. *not ideal for me, but i'm learning how to be patient. *when he and i are alone it's a different story. *he's flirty and affectionate. *the problem is, right now we're not alone much - i sincerely doubt he'd be comfortable at my place at this stage and he needs a lot of time to himself. *that i've seen him 2 weekends in a row is progress so i'm just enjoying that much at the moment.

he and i made plans last night and i let him know it would have to be later than our usual meeting time because i was having an early dinner with a friend. *he suggested she join us. *this spoke volumes to me - means he really is trying to integrate into my world (he's known her just on a very casual basis for a while, and he knows she and i are very close friends).

i do think he thinks we're dating now based on how he is with me when we're out and that he's in touch with me every day, usually off and on throughout the day. *i'm in touch with him more than i am anyone, except for my best friend. *he's got to see where this is headed, it's just a matter of it all happening when the time is right. *unfortunately, for me the time has been right since july. *LOL
My guess is when he become flirty after heading back to his comfortzone. He does not know how to express it in public setting, its all build up, all in one shot at the given time. Realistically, he would do it in the public, but thats just really stepping out of his comfortzone. So hopefully, this might comfort you even more. Remember, INTJ has friends more than love and companisonate partners, so just be aware.

[rwyatt365]

You've pretty much got him. Keep the line taught, but don't force it - otherwise he'll bend the hook and be gone. Just apply light, even pressure and be patient. This will wear him out and you'll be able to land him with ease. He won't even know what hit him...

...wait, this isn't the "Fishing" thread? :-?

Oops, sorry. :-[

[mind_wander]

Actually, I find this very useful, explain to an female ESTJ, who broke up with an ex-INTJ. Sux, for me to clean it up; the point was that she send out mixed signals. They both know they liked each other. Don't worry about it, we all make mistakes; just felt bad for the INTJ who got hit with mix signals. Anyways, I told her that ESTJ/INTJ will in the long-run turned into friends, as opposed to relationship partners. Both sides, one is extro and other is Intro; feel to express and one is talking to a wall of silence. Where is gonna lead, but both sides are willing to have an open conversation, regardless what that is. Which is really nice to know? At least there is no door stop, however the ST side, will be alittle forceful- the push comes to shove. For INTJ, trying to push INTJ, is like pushing a heavy sandbag. Must push it glenty.

[ENFP is curious]

You've pretty much got him. Keep the line taught, but don't force it - otherwise he'll bend the hook and be gone. Just apply light, even pressure and be patient. This will wear him out and you'll be able to land him with ease. He won't even know what hit him...

...wait, this isn't the "Fishing" thread? * :-?

Oops, sorry. *:-[

thanx rwyatt! now that i understand him a little better, it's all working out. i don't want to interfere with his alone time and get that if i don't bug him he'll be more apt to reach out to me when he's ready than if i try to disrupt him. and when he tells me he needs validation i'm more than happy to provide it - and then i'll unexpectedly end up with a nice compliment in return.

as i've said before, both my parents are Is and i have I tendancies myself. i've just never encountered this situation before in a romantic sense. now that i 'get it' it all makes sense to me! :)

[ENFP is curious]

ok gang i need your help on two issues:

1) a few days ago he asked me if i wanted to go away for a weekend with him. of course i said yes. after some discussion about where, i threw a specific date out to him, about a month from now. he said probably/possibly. since then he's dropped it. i'm one to plan and get a place booked and i don't think he is of a like mind, i'm assuming he'll deal with it when he's ready? any advice on how to handle without being a pain in the rear?

2) we chatted online earlier today. he sent me a link to some pix of a woman's online album. i know he's got a naughty streak to him, and am fine with that. i understand we're not in a relationship. he told me he answered an ad she put up (have no idea what it was for but i guarantee you it was for naughty fun), started chatting with her this morning and she sent him over the link. now, i have zero doubt that he likes me and zero doubt that he would ever meet her in person. in fact, i've often thought he's probably been screwing around on the internet far more than he's ever let me know. he did make it a point to tell me that she lives far away and that she's not his type. but, then why bring it up with me to begin with? could this be because he doesn't understand social rituals for a situation like the one he and i are in now? or because he was testing me? or because he thinks of me as someone he couldn't be serious about? ENFP mind is kinda freaking out right now.

[Firelie]

I have no advice for your problems, but I just wanted to say...you're far more patient than I would be in your situation. *He sounds awfully flakey to me.

[thecraig]

If I asked you to go away with me for the weekend, we would be in a relationship. I think he is messing with you/testing you. He wants his freedom but he wants you. He could be trying to figure out how exclusive you want this relationship.

My wife is not the overly jealeous type. We discuss which women I think are pretty quite often. Every once in a wile I make a comment thats a little past our established line just to see if I get a jealous reaction out of her. I want to know where that line is and that she still is possesive of me. I apreciate the freedom she gives me to look but its still nice to know she cares.

the other option is that he is somewhat nervous about this weekend thing. From what you have posted earlier he has opened up to you somewhat. No matter how much he has opened up he is still scared that once you "really get to know him" your gonna bolt. This weekend thing is a big deal! or at least it would be to me. It is a lot of time that he is willing to devote to you.

I think the best thing you can do is be clear what this weekend means to you, and if his internet stuff makes you jealous, let him know.

[ENFP is curious]

things are going well. i now understand, accept and encourage his time alone. we've talked a little about what/where we are and we're both on the same page about what we want. he's made comments about us being a couple and i think it's sooner rather than later it will be made clear that we are indeed exclusive. we've also discussed his needing time alone and i was able to tell him that i get it and it's not a problem. he's affectionate with me in public. i think most of the initial awkward hurdles have been jumped, FINALLY! LOL.

i find the INTJ/ENFP balance a good one. he inspires deep interesting convo for me, i bring out his silly side. we also have a lot of shared interests that i don't see in my girlfriends.

the next big step is he's coming over to my place this weekend. this is a HUGE deal for me, and i've told him this, as i value my private space more so than the average person. will be interesting to see how this goes, but i don't think it's a big a deal as it is in my head.

the only thing i still don't get is why he throws out odd comments that make me feel pressured. for example, he asked me about 3 times the other day if his place was too small for 2 people. i think he may be trying to understand where i stand on that issue, but why not just ask me directly?

[Meyer]

ok gang i need your help on two issues:

1) a few days ago he asked me if i wanted to go away for a weekend with him. of course i said yes. after some discussion about where, i threw a specific date out to him, about a month from now. he said probably/possibly. since then he's dropped it. i'm one to plan and get a place booked and i don't think he is of a like mind, i'm assuming he'll deal with it when he's ready? any advice on how to handle without being a pain in the rear?

2) we chatted online earlier today. he sent me a link to some pix of a woman's online album. i know he's got a naughty streak to him, and am fine with that. i understand we're not in a relationship. he told me he answered an ad she put up (have no idea what it was for but i guarantee you it was for naughty fun), started chatting with her this morning and she sent him over the link. now, i have zero doubt that he likes me and zero doubt that he would ever meet her in person. in fact, i've often thought he's probably been screwing around on the internet far more than he's ever let me know. he did make it a point to tell me that she lives far away and that she's not his type. but, then why bring it up with me to begin with? could this be because he doesn't understand social rituals for a situation like the one he and i are in now? or because he was testing me? or because he thinks of me as someone he couldn't be serious about? ENFP mind is kinda freaking out right now.

As regards to point 2 I think he is just driving home the point that you are just friends. Anything more than that sounds like it is too restricting to his sense of freedom. I would recommend forgetting about the relationship part and really starting to view him as strictly a friend. He will pick up on this and realize it is time to shit or get off the pot. The only downfall to this strategy is whatever he chooses, friend or something more, will probably be pretty final. I do have no doubt though that if he is a well developed intj and you are a friend who has made it into his "inner circle", than you will have a loyal, trustworthy, and dependable companion. Possibly he won't have all the time you might require of him but you will always be able to count on him when it matters.

[Sagacious]

Pardon the late joining to this thread, I just found this site a few days ago. And let me say lucky you two.... I'm filtering what you've said through my interpretations (definite INTJ here!).

To start back at the beginning and echo what others have said, it really does sound like he still has very strong feelings but is holding back (or rather, was holding back and is now loosening up) because he got hurt very badly before. Not at all your fault - but it did happen, and is something he has to deal with. His hesitance at making any moves (at calling something a date, at initiating a kiss) is because he is deathly afraid of being hurt again. After what you've said about your attraction to him, if this doesn't work out, he will blame himself - not for being wrong, but for screwing it up himself. Sorry for the doom and gloom - but you should also understand how difficult it is for him to come as far as he has.

Doing the little things of attraction (dating, kissing) means admitting, both to himself and to you, that he has forgiven you for that hurt and is willing to trust you again. Do not underestimate how difficult this is!

the only thing i still don't get is why he throws out odd comments that make me feel pressured. for example, he asked me about 3 times the other day if his place was too small for 2 people. i think he may be trying to understand where i stand on that issue, but why not just ask me directly?

Little INTJ trick. When an INTJ isn't comfortable talking about a topic, he'll switch into the abstract. "Is my place too small for you and I" is an admission that he's thinking about whether you like his place / are comfortable in his place; "is my place too small for 2 people" is a non-committal question that obliquely approaches a terrifying question, since he can retreat without admitting he meant you. Attacking the whole thing at once is too much; he's trying to nibble off parts in hopes that the thing becomes smaller and less terrifying. And probably, were you to just ask him the question, he would give a non-answer because he isn't ready to answer. If you really want to press for an answer to a non-question like this, try something like: "do you mean for a person in general or for me? For a person in general, I think it's ..." - you're calling out his evasion, but only answering in the abstract, leaving him space to avoid the scary question, which relieves some pressure, maybe enough for him to open the scary topic.

One of the other things you mentioned ... how the two of you would have a wonderful dinner, then walk out of the restaurant and he would go off with only a hug. Interpretation: he knows that he should do something, freezes up in fear of doing it wrong, and ends up retreating because he'd rather do nothing than the wrong thing. And I will bet serious money that he walked away kicking himself for not doing something (I do that all the time, sigh), and as soon as he relaxes / comes back to his senses, you get flirty thank-you text message, his way of saying "please give me another chance to do the right thing". Of course, there is the slight problem that he still doesn't know what the right thing is, and it will probably take him a dozen tries to figure it out ;).


Re #2 above: don't know what this is about, don't even have good guesses. If you want to know, ASK HIM. Don't try to guess, because any guess you make is probably wrong. (And since that post was a few weeks ago, it sounds like this has not been an issue).

[logos]

ok gang i need your help on two issues:

1) a few days ago he asked me if i wanted to go away for a weekend with him. of course i said yes. after some discussion about where, i threw a specific date out to him, about a month from now. he said probably/possibly. since then he's dropped it. i'm one to plan and get a place booked and i don't think he is of a like mind, i'm assuming he'll deal with it when he's ready? any advice on how to handle without being a pain in the rear?

2) we chatted online earlier today. he sent me a link to some pix of a woman's online album. i know he's got a naughty streak to him, and am fine with that. i understand we're not in a relationship. he told me he answered an ad she put up (have no idea what it was for but i guarantee you it was for naughty fun), started chatting with her this morning and she sent him over the link. now, i have zero doubt that he likes me and zero doubt that he would ever meet her in person. in fact, i've often thought he's probably been screwing around on the internet far more than he's ever let me know. he did make it a point to tell me that she lives far away and that she's not his type. but, then why bring it up with me to begin with? could this be because he doesn't understand social rituals for a situation like the one he and i are in now? or because he was testing me? or because he thinks of me as someone he couldn't be serious about? ENFP mind is kinda freaking out right now.

#2 I could be off, but I'm going to throw it out there. I've referenced several sources for dating advice in hopes of discovering whatever it is that I do incorrectly to no avail. In my search I stumbled upon one piece of advice that may apply to your situation. It suggested that you let it be known to your love interest that you have others. The explanation given for this is that women tend to feel more secure in their attraction when they know that other women also find you appealing. Personally, while conceding that it may work in many cases, I reject this entirely. I would not want to be with a woman who based her decisions on what other people thought. Perhaps, though, your INTJ is taking this advice?

I interpret what he expressed to be that other women find him interesting as well. Then, fearing he may have alienated you, he reassured you that you were really the only one in whom he was interested.

[Santana28]

::sigh:: this thread reminds me of my current situation, except my guy is an ENTJ (or quite possibly an INTJ with supremely honed E skills).

We were friends for 4 years and i never had a clue that he was interested in me, until he kissed me completely out of the blue on day...right after i got engaged to his best friend. I dont know why he waited until then, but who knows. We ended up having a very passionate affair and it really got to him... he had always serial-dated and never settled down. He would always date vapid, obnoxious, "skinny, prissy bitches" who he had nothing in common with but who he could use for various reasons. It was pretty obvious that he fell hard for me. And then he finally freaked out about it, and used a minor disagreement as an excuse to break it off - he told me he never wanted to see me again.

Flash forward a year and a half. We run into each other at a show - he avoids me like i have the plague the entire night, and then at the very end comes up to me and smiles. 2 days later he invites me (indirectly, but by name) to one of his shows (he has a band)... he doesn't avoid me this time, but he doesn't look me in the eyes at all. I ran into him on the way to the bathroom and he touched my arm very warmly... like he was very happy i was there. I just couldnt handle it and walked on. This continued all night... he would acknowledge me, but not talk to me directly or look at me. At the end of the night he hugged me like it was something he was supposed to do - like he was terrified to be genuine with me in any way. I friended him on MySpace and he surprisingly accepted me the next day (i defriended him after the whole split). I wrote him an email thanking him for the invite and apologizing if he didnt want to see me... mixed messages, i guess. He never wrote me back, but he didnt de-friend me.

I have no idea what to do. When he told me he never wanted to hear from me again, there was one condition - until things were "resolved" between me and my fiancee. We got married... although not happily. To be honest, i would leave him for my friend - but at the same time I just am not willing to take a complete leap of faith for someone who has given me nothing but mixed messages. My intuition is on fire and tells me i'm dead on... but his actions just confuse the hell out of me. I know he's probably hurt and afraid and doesnt want to talk because he wants to maintain control of the situation... at the same time, i really think he wants things to work out between us eventually. I just dont know what to do.

Oh well. Sorry for hijacking the thread...just got me thinking is all. :(

[Charlie Mc.]

ok gang i need your help on two issues:

1) a few days ago he asked me if i wanted to go away for a weekend with him. of course i said yes. after some discussion about where, i threw a specific date out to him, about a month from now. he said probably/possibly. since then he's dropped it. i'm one to plan and get a place booked and i don't think he is of a like mind, i'm assuming he'll deal with it when he's ready? any advice on how to handle without being a pain in the rear?

2) we chatted online earlier today. he sent me a link to some pix of a woman's online album. i know he's got a naughty streak to him, and am fine with that. i understand we're not in a relationship. he told me he answered an ad she put up (have no idea what it was for but i guarantee you it was for naughty fun), started chatting with her this morning and she sent him over the link. now, i have zero doubt that he likes me and zero doubt that he would ever meet her in person. in fact, i've often thought he's probably been screwing around on the internet far more than he's ever let me know. he did make it a point to tell me that she lives far away and that she's not his type. but, then why bring it up with me to begin with? could this be because he doesn't understand social rituals for a situation like the one he and i are in now? or because he was testing me? or because he thinks of me as someone he couldn't be serious about? ENFP mind is kinda freaking out right now.
My guess would be he is messing with you. a LITTLE jealousy would be good for his ego. Not enough that it turns into an emotional issue, just enough to let him know you care. Another thing to realize is we have pretty twisted senses of humor. We are also not above having a bit of fun at the expense of people we are close to. Don't take offense to it, but be aware of it.

[AnandaMeansBliss]

Ok, now things get tricker then and you must outsmart him to get him to drop his guard.

Create a 100% revealing argument for him that is completely focused on him. So start talking about the world -> shift the conversation to people -> shift the conversation to couples -> shift the conversation to him.

You: "Hi, so I was thinking about life the universe and everything and this is really starting to get to me I could use your input"
Him: "Uh ok sure"
You: "Ok so there are 6 billion people on this world..."
Him: "Give or take"
You: "And every day the population is going at an incredibly fast rate..."
Him: "Sounds solid so far"
You: "Ok so how can the world be so full of war?"
Him: "what?!"
You: "For the population to be increasing then it means that more and more people are finding partners"
Him: "For relationships that either fizzle or are completely red neck in nature"
You: "Still it's a testament to the human race in general that even with the nature we have to fight for our beliefs that underneath everything we're still able to see the goodness in others."
Him: "Or we have a drive to have sex with anything that moves"
You: "Or because the we're not promiscuous in nature, we can fall in love" <-- make sure you emphasise the we part here, introverts have the upper hand because we take on the view points of other not just ourselves.
Him: "So what are you getting at? What is your problem"
You: "My problem is that if the world in general finds it so easy to fall in love, how does it happen?"
Him: "What?"
You: "So there must be something that triggers it in our brains... I mean when you love a person it's a different felling to what you normally get right..."
Him: "hmm yes I guess"

Continue from here and make him see the benefits of being with you. Now this is perhaps a conversation that would never take place and it's easy to sit back and write dialog for both sides. So you should definitively shape it in your own words and maybe follow the general point.

The idea is to take a general concept and continue to expand on it until he must make a conclusion. The conclusion is either what he's looking for in a woman or that you and he should get together.

He must make the decision, you can only push him in the right direction :).
I just want to say that I think this is a great idea Qwerty. It would have certainly worked with me

[ENFP is curious]

Pardon the late joining to this thread, I just found this site a few days ago. And let me say lucky you two.... I'm filtering what you've said through my interpretations (definite INTJ here!).

To start back at the beginning and echo what others have said, it really does sound like he still has very strong feelings but is holding back (or rather, was holding back and is now loosening up) because he got hurt very badly before. Not at all your fault - but it did happen, and is something he has to deal with. His hesitance at making any moves (at calling something a date, at initiating a kiss) is because he is deathly afraid of being hurt again. After what you've said about your attraction to him, if this doesn't work out, he will blame himself - not for being wrong, but for screwing it up himself. Sorry for the doom and gloom - but you should also understand how difficult it is for him to come as far as he has.

Doing the little things of attraction (dating, kissing) means admitting, both to himself and to you, that he has forgiven you for that hurt and is willing to trust you again. Do not underestimate how difficult this is!



Little INTJ trick. When an INTJ isn't comfortable talking about a topic, he'll switch into the abstract. "Is my place too small for you and I" is an admission that he's thinking about whether you like his place / are comfortable in his place; "is my place too small for 2 people" is a non-committal question that obliquely approaches a terrifying question, since he can retreat without admitting he meant you. Attacking the whole thing at once is too much; he's trying to nibble off parts in hopes that the thing becomes smaller and less terrifying. And probably, were you to just ask him the question, he would give a non-answer because he isn't ready to answer. If you really want to press for an answer to a non-question like this, try something like: "do you mean for a person in general or for me? For a person in general, I think it's ..." - you're calling out his evasion, but only answering in the abstract, leaving him space to avoid the scary question, which relieves some pressure, maybe enough for him to open the scary topic.

One of the other things you mentioned ... how the two of you would have a wonderful dinner, then wa