What people see in relationships?

[antisocial one]

I ask myself this question almost every day for the last 10 years and can´t find the answer.
Also I see many people here talk about relationships. So I decided to open this topic.
Personaly i would never ask this but this is INTJ forum so our minds are alike.
So what do I constantly miss.

Honestly I never even had a crush or any kind of intimate physical conntact and I am 23 year old guy.
And to be even more honest I do not think I have problem.
Also does somebody here think like me and why is this attitude so alien to people, that they must be hostile toward it?
And to be straight I do not think I am asexual person, actually i know i am not.

Many people say that I am constantly so affraid of entire thing that I am avioiding it.
Personaly i think this is totaly untrue and that I just have very specific life goals.

Bottom line question is why would you whant to be whit another person and what do people truly get from this behavior.(I know that this question is actually to logical for this topic)

I don`t whant to sound like arrogant jerk any further so please enlight me.

[TheLastMohican]

This thread might interest you:

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I have precisely your same view. People tend to think I am "afraid of commitment" or something like that. But that is not really the case. I do not fear love; I just have not, and possibly will not experience it. Furthermore, I prefer that thinking, and I would not want to change.

[SickFish]

The reason it feels so alien to everyone is because it goes against the propagation of the species. The innate drive possessed by all living things to keep the species alive by having children. Gay and Lesbian relationships also taunt this innate drive and (at least in my opinion) is why they are met with such hostility. The lack of a desire to mate can be seen as an undesired mutation and be scorned.

I do realize there is a difference between propagation and a relationship but for the sake of my argument I'm not discerning between the two.

[malefide]

"I just have very specific life goals."

This applies to me too. I have never been in love and I am attracted to very few people. It's not necessarily that my standards are unrealistically high (though they could be), I just don't...feel it. So I see no point in seeking it out since I do not really feel a need for it. That said, I don't think I'm asexual, even though I am by default very non-sexual.

You don't seem to have a problem to me. I think other people are just more easily and often affected by physical attraction to other people and it has become a central part of their lives. So when they hear of someone who experiences things differently, they don't take the time to try to work their minds around that. They just react with considering the subject.

[Richard0612]

I'm the same. I cannot see the point in most relationships: in a relationship, part of your happiness and control over your life is given to another person. I can't stand this, I love being in control of my own life and am very reluctant to relinquish this control. Also, at my stage in life [high school - although I refer to it as the loony bin] 99% of relationships mean nothing and will come to nothing in the end. Therefore they are pointless.





Richard0612 added to this post, 6 minutes and 28 seconds later...

...it has become a central part of their lives. So when they hear of someone who experiences things differently, they don't take the time to try to work their minds around that. They just react with considering the subject.

I agree. Most people have obtaining a girlfriend/boyfriend as one of their top priorities, even when it sometimes causes more problems than it 'solves'.

I also get the knee-jerk reaction of being a 'weirdo' and 'loser', but I either shrug it off or [try to] explain the reality of the situation.

[escapist11]

All of my friends around me talk about what their wedding day is going to be like, and what kind of man they're going to marry, and how many kids they are going to have, and what the little devils' names' are going to be.

Then they turn to me as if I'm supposed to put my thoughts out there.

Marriage isn't at the top of my 'to do' list. I'm going to get my bachelors, snag a masters, get a phd, work for NASA...A husband and little creatures don't fit into that and I'm pretty sure that I don't want kids.

After presenting this information to my peers, they try to convince me that everyone should get married and have kids and that 'love' is real and all this other crap...

I find no one in here weird.

[mkay]

I don't think there's anything wrong with not wanting a relationship if you don't want one, whatever your reasons.

People often have a hard time seeing through other people's perspectives. Family and friends who want you to be happy often try to apply their definition of happiness to your life. Though well-intentioned, they can be off-base.

Personally, I didn't grow up wanting to get married, partly because my parents were always fighting and I thought, "Well, who the crap needs this?!" Plus, I'm hardwired to be independent.

But I just happened to meet the right person, really got to know him and found that, although I am a happy person alone, I'm much happier with him.

Richard, you mentioned not wanting to turn over part of your happiness and control over your life to someone. It's true you do that to a certain extent, but what you get out of a healthy relationship is much more than you ever put in. Whether you're willing to risk that is up to you, and no one should judge you for your decision. But in return, it would help if you didn't judge others who make other choices.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Speaking as a person who has had alot of intimate contact and quite a few 'relationships'.......... of course you don't have a problem! Just because the frigged up society we live in has made sex out to be some kind of fairy tale BS, doesn't mean that you have to squeeze yourself into that idiotic way of thinking.

Keep up the good work of being true to yourself.......never let anyone tell you who you are.

[ElstonGunn]

Many people say that I am constantly so affraid of entire thing that I am avioiding it.
Personaly i think this is totaly untrue and that I just have very specific life goals.

I've been on the receiving end of that impression, too. In the name of all that is decent, I am not afraid of relationships. It's just a combination of being socially-inept and being completely uninterested in meaningless sex or relationships for their own sake.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

PS: I love being the naked honest guy around here. I feel the occasional cringe from the stoic, and the occasional giggle from my new friends...
tsk, tsk
You are the INTJ forum class clown. I mean that in an endearing way of course.

[TheLastMohican]

Marriage isn't at the top of my 'to do' list. I'm going to get my bachelors, snag a masters, get a phd, work for NASA...A husband and little creatures don't fit into that and I'm pretty sure that I don't want kids.


Go to it! Let us know when your first launch is. :)

[Zilal]

I've been single for around a year now and I'm just starting to find myself thinking, "You know, it would be nice if I had somebody..."

A large part of the appeal of a relationship, for me, is the ability to broaden what I'm able to experience of life. It opens up different parts of yourself when you get close to someone. You learn more about yourself and life and general. It's just another area to explore.

[pallasathena]

After presenting this information to my peers, they try to convince me that everyone should get married and have kids and that 'love' is real and all this other crap...

Don't fall for it. Misery loves company. :)

[SeaCzar]

Its the societal "norm" to be in a relationship. We are bombarded constantly sexual innuendo. I think as INTJs we view everything with a healthy suspicion. Born skeptics us. I agree with the poster. Having been in relationships, I'm much happier when I am not in one.

[Tual]

I have to say I see sex and relationships as two very different and rather unrelated things (of course during a relationship you have sex). Basically I don't have many expectations of people I have sex with, they just need to look nice. However for a relationship I have such a list of expectations I do not think I will ever find someone like it (and I don't mind).
People (like my grandma) seem to think that if you're not in a relationship at my age (23) there is something wrong with you. Naturally I don't mind what they think but it does get a bit tiring to explain it to people again and again...

[antisocial one]

To be honest once again, I am suprised by this.
I have expected far more hostile reaction. Because that is what I get when this topic is oped in real life.
Also I can`t remember when was the last time so many people agreed whit me. Usually this number is 0.


Who knows once I finish my education this adittude may change, but for now educaton is definitivly top priority and I am glad that someone understands this perspective.

[curiousjane]

And to be even more honest I do not think I have problem.

Well, that's because you don't.

But relationships do have value, and romance/commitment and independence are not mutually exclusive, with the right person. (i.e., somebody who can like you not DESPITE your quirks, but BECAUSE of them, and is willing to let you work out issues over time.)

Personally, I think serious relationships are beneficial because they can provide emotional, financial, and moral support when needed. It makes life a little easier and a little sweeter if you can share it with a like-minded person who lets you BE your own person.

'Course, I'm still lookin'. This could be hearsay, considering I have no interest in casual flings in the meantime.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

To be honest once again, I am suprised by this.
I have expected far more hostile reaction. Because that is what I get when this topic is oped in real life.
Also I can`t remember when was the last time so many people agreed whit me. Usually this number is 0.


Who knows once I finish my education this adittude may change, but for now educaton is definitivly top priority and I am glad that someone understands this perspective.
I think that is because, even if an INTJ doesn't feel the same way about a subject as someone else does....we tend to value and respect their right to think and feel the way they want. Especially when it goes against societal norms.

[bebegirl]

What I would view in the value of relationships is companionship and support from the same sex and companionship, support and sex (hopefully hot haha) from the opposite sex. I don't have a ton of friends (actually few close friends) and I wouldn't have any superficial relationships at all since I would think they're a waste of my time. But it's nice to have some balance when you need to get out of your own thoughts and sometimes other people have a lot of value to balance out your life....maybe just make you laugh here and there.

[Serket]

Sometimes I kinda feel alone. I guess I am assuming that a relationship would make me feel less so? Plus everyone else seems to rave about them, so I don't wanna miss out.
That said, we're all really just after sex, me included. And since I'm not really into people I don't know well touching me (awkward much) I would think I'd have to know any potential lovers reasonably well. And wouldn't that be the definition of a relationship?

[Noehelia]

To answer the question "What people see in relationships" from my side:
It is the same thing that you look at getting friends, at communicating with people in forums in the internet, you feel the need to not being alone, to express your thoughts to someone that he will understand you, to be accepted as a person, that someone will care for your well being, love you the way your parents did.
Friends as close as they may be can not be integrated in your life, they have their own paths, they usually seek their own relationship, someone to be closely with.
It came a point in my life that I realized fully that my parents will die sooner that me (in regular situations), the family that I had been used to feel security and all the rest of the feelings that go together (love, care, help, sense of being part to something, etc) will fall apart (except ofc the memory of them) and I want to replace that with a new family, a family of my own. In order to do that "nature" has given me these feelings that go along with a romantic partner.

[OneBadMother]

I think social relationships, at least quality ones, are important for sanity and growth as a human being. Outside input is often important in order to assess the quality of and refine your ideas and perceptions. Also, it's fun to have people to screw around with.

As far as romantic relationships go, I don't know. I know that I'd like to have a partner to enjoy life with, but that partner by no means has to be romantic. I'd rather have an intellectual debate partner than someone to share a bed with, especially since the latter seems to come with misery and drama. A good roommate beats out a bad or even mediocre relationship, and I have yet to experience a relationship that has beaten out a good friendship.

[qwerty]

Wait til you meet your ONE. ;)

[eclecticjoker]

I have crushes every once in a while, and while I don't let my sex drive run much of my life, I do enjoy the occasional "romance" novel. So I'd say I'm pretty much not asexual, although I don't partake of the social mating ritual.

Really, I'm a very private and aloof person. I have only one friend that I really know and trust, and many acquaintances. I just couldn't imagine having a romantic relationship with someone I didn't really trust. I don't make friends quickly. It just follows that I won't have romantic relationships.

Anyway, I truly hope to be able to be in a fulfilling relationship at one point, and having a family and children and the like one day would be wonderful. I'm not going to just force it because I'm bored or because society tells me I have to, though. It'll happen in it's own time, or it won't. In the end, I'm my own best friend, and I can do without.

[sriv]

I think the idea of marriage is very appealing. I feel that a male and a female are meant to complement and balance each other. I also want someone I can trust completely and rely on. Life feels much more comfortable knowing that two heads are better than one.

[HeterodoxRobot]

Relationships always ruin the gratuitous sex!

I have more important things to do than cuddle...However, us fellas must resort to this trickery for that moist and warm 'fort knox' that these females feel the need to guard night and day..."Gross, I suddenly feel reduced to being nothing more than a walking, and talking vagina.

:yuck:

[raconteur213]

Gross, I suddenly feel reduced to being nothing more than a walking, and talking vagina.

:yuck:

Hey you said it, not me... Why must we cuddle, when a good book awaits?

[enfpchick]

OMG you guys are like on the other side of the spectrum from me.
I have experienced crushes and love sooooooooooooo many times.
but back to the topic
A relationship it gives me a chance to open up and become one with another human being and it is the chance to experience feelings so intense you can't explain it.


I just love love :lovestruck:

[HeterodoxRobot]

A good book literally or metaphorically???

Cuddling *feels* good and it fosters bonding.

If I like a guy, you bet your ass I will desire a certain level of cuddling.

The more I like a guy, the more I crave his physical touch.

*Note too much cuddling, however, is suffocating. Yuck, no thanks.

[sriv]

Enfps are emotion druggies. You guys need to calm down.

[enfpchick]

and you INTJs need to start shooting up some emotion :scared:

[rwyatt365]

...back to the discussion...

There is a place for "relationship" (and by that I mean "intimate relationship" - which is not necessarily sex). If, at this point, you have a goal to achieve that outweighs persuing a relationship, then go after your goal - by all means. It is that focus, and intensity that this personality was made for.

But don't rule out the time when you may see that "person" (the ONE, as someone else said) and your focus will turn to them. Hopefully, you will apply as much of that intensity and focus on making that relationship as good as you can make it be. And, hopefully, that "person" will see joy and contentment when they look at you.

We can debate the biological imperative for intimacy and marriage, or the emotional fulfillment that it might bring. The fact of the matter (IMHO) is that it is something that is encoded in our genes and experienced in different ways by different people. "Feelers" might tumble head over heels, "Thinkers" might intellectualize the entire thing. Regardless, whether your jaw literally hits the floor when that "someone" comes on your radar, or you begin a Pro/Con matrix to evaluate their worthiness - the effect is the same...you've been "bitten" my friend!

[sriv]

I tend to see only the bad in people even though I constantly tell myself to see the good in people. :cool: Now here's an INTJ making progress.

You ENFPs are certifiably insane.

[SeaCzar]

OMG you guys are like on the other side of the spectrum from me.
I have experienced crushes and love sooooooooooooo many times.
but back to the topic
A relationship it gives me a chance to open up and become one with another human being and it is the chance to experience feelings so intense you can't explain it.


I just love love :lovestruck:

I apologize, but this is truly nauseating.

[HeterodoxRobot]

I apologize, but this is truly nauseating.
Don't be mean, sheesh!!!

[pinkroger]

This is difficult to answer...relationships can't be solved with logic alone. There is something else essential to a relationship that I can't fathom either.

[Aurelia]

I asked my ISTJ husband this question for a male perspective and he believes the bottom line is sex. Then he added companionship :laugh: after I gave him a look. My husband doesn't believe you're telling the truth about never having a crush. At some point in your life you must have felt attracted to someone. According to him, a heterosexual man would naturally desire intimate contact with women. Sex is just a very basic need. Not that you have to act on it (some have religious boundaries regarding premarital sex). While he thinks it's smart to focus on goals, he doesn't get how in your entire 23 years of living you've never had a crush.

What I think is... an INTJ has a unique mix of self-confidence, independence, a certain disregard for social cues/expectations and an intimidating communication style. The combination of those characteristics can make socializing more difficult even IF we had the desire to socialize on the level that other types do. One reason why others seem hostile to your indifference is because it's too difficult for them to see how anyone could feel differently.

What do I get out of it? My husband is my best friend. Friendship has always been at the very core of our romantic relationship. He's someone who understands me better than anyone else. It's nice being able to share my life with him and to have someone to start a family with. I guess the bottom line is companionship, sex and procreation. If you don't have those desires it's reasonable why you wouldn't seek those experiences out. I don't think there's anything wrong with you for feeling differently than most.

[curiousjane]

I think the idea of marriage is very appealing. I feel that a male and a female are meant to complement and balance each other. I also want someone I can trust completely and rely on. Life feels much more comfortable knowing that two heads are better than one.

This about sums it up for me.

I have experienced crushes and love sooooooooooooo many times ... I just love love :lovestruck:

Wow. I can't even fathom this. I've had maybe 3 crushes in my whole life, and I don't think I've ever fallen in love. Maybe my idea of love is just too deep? Sometimes I worry that I don't actually have that emotion in my repertoire. :huh: Some "Feeler" I am.

Enfps are emotion druggies. You guys need to calm down.

A calm ENFP = An INFP

We're pretty great, really. ;)

[sriv]

I did not say anything about the I side of NFPs. I can imagine that you guys are much less annoying and attention seeking. I do not believe that I have ever felt love. I do believe I have felt lust but I never even thought of acting upon it and I do not consider sex the slightest part of a relationship. Procreation maybe, but not sex.

[curiousjane]

I did not say anything about the I side of NFPs.

I know you didn't sriv. 's OK. Just thought I'd point out the obvious. *g*

[outrider]

Honestly I never even had a crush or any kind of intimate physical conntact and I am 23 year old guy.
And to be even more honest I do not think I have problem..

I don't think you have a problem. I didn't kiss anyone until college and didn't do much more until after I'd graduated... and I'm an acceptably attractive female (it's easier for women to find a willing partner - note certain other posts in this thread LOL).

And to be straight I do not think I am asexual person, actually i know i am not..

Most people aren't truly asexual. I think sexuality is hard-wired.

I think that as with every aspect of a relationship, sex is a trade-off and may be of greater or lesser importance at different times throughout one's life. For example, when I was much younger, I was curious about the whole shebang and didn't think intimacy was important. At a still younger age, it was more important that I maintain my sense of privacy - thus I wasn't willing to try it at all. And for a while physical affection was the price I paid for being in a supportive relationship. But in my current relationship it's part of the whole.

Many people say that I am constantly so affraid of entire thing that I am avioiding it.
Personaly i think this is totaly untrue and that I just have very specific life goals..

Sure. You have other things to do at the moment that outweigh relationships in importance. That makes a lot of sense, actually. Relationships require a lot of time and energy.

Bottom line question is why would you whant to be whit another person and what do people truly get from this behavior.(I know that this question is actually to logical for this topic)

Well, I recently decided after many years of being single that I wanted to try out the whole relationship deal again (and actually was asking myself the above question!). I set aside the time, put forth the effort, met someone I like who likes me, and am now exploring said question. So far, the answer is: a lot more than I thought I would.

[enfpchick]

I wanted to try out the whole relationship deal again (and actually was asking myself the above question!). I set aside the time, put forth the effort, met someone I like who likes me



you make it sound like it is a CHORE

[OneBadMother]

D: But it is.

[sriv]

It is a chore. You ENFPs do it because you are independently weak and have manipulative power. We would rather not do it but have to because society requires it of us.

[OneBadMother]

Yeesh, no need to get hostile. :P It takes all kinds of people to make a world. Relationships can be rewarding, I just feel that they're just less rewarding and less effort than they're worth a good deal of the time. The latter is especially true of romantic relationships, because while friendships are more or less self-maintaining after a while, romance is constant work and effort. Everyone with an understanding of human nature has potential manipulative power. The true test of character is whether you cultivate and use said power, and what you use it for.

[sriv]

Yep and ENFPs tend generally to use it for boredom or selfish purposes. I am only getting hostile because ENFPs stand for everything I look down upon and they look down upon everything I believe. Polar opposites lead to conflicts. Plus I wouldnt be brave enough to do this in real life anyway. It is just harmless forum chat.

[alexxq]

There have been a few relationships I've been in where within the first few months I would become convinced that the person I was with was 'the one' or just someone I would be commited to for a long time. Unfortunately, none of these relationships worked out the way I hoped...

I've learned from my mistakes and now I know not to get my hopes up next time something like that happens. Sometimes I think of relationships in a sort of amusing way. I think of animals whom go about everything on a subconscious level. After attraction is established, mating takes place(sometimes forcibly by male lions and what not haha).

I'm not saying this is the way we humans should look at it and over populate some more, but I do think that attraction plays an important role in the whole mating sequence...Maybe relastionships and the attraction involved have something to do with the pending of the whole mating process. And maybe love doesn't exist and long-term relationships are pointless... Perhaps they aren't. Adoption is a choice. Who knows?

Till then I'll wait for the perfect woman to rock my socks off.

[Alichai]

Although my life is not ruled by emotion, I still have feelings. I'm sure most INTJ's are this way as well. Besides the fact that my husband makes me very happy when he's around, there are numerous logical incentives to forging a marriage as well.

We have two sources of income and two heads for making important financial and life decisions. We each have someone we can count on in any emergency. We split chores and duties. It works out great.

Granted, I am probably not as emotional and outwardly loving as he would like, but we make it work. He's great about giving me my own space. Half the time that we are home together, we are doing our own thing on different floors of the house.

Now children, that's something I'm not interested in at all. There don't seem to be any good reasons to go that route, other than some vague biological imperative that everyone seems to feel but me. I'm 29 too, so I don't believe in this baby clock that was supposed to have started by now or something :)

[Richard0612]

All of my friends around me talk about what their wedding day is going to be like, and what kind of man they're going to marry, and how many kids they are going to have, and what the little devils' names' are going to be...

After presenting this information to my peers, they try to convince me that everyone should get married and have kids and that 'love' is real and all this other crap...



Get out of my brain! Seriously, I see this kind of behaviour all the time. Only the other day I had an argument over whether 'true love' exists with a [suspected] xSFx type, and all she could say was 'well you haven't experienced it, so you wouldn't know', despite my refutation of the central point [its existence]. She then tried to convince me that I was an alien sent to suck the love out of this planet... seems fair enough :p

[ceg6]

OMG you guys are like on the other side of the spectrum from me.
I have experienced crushes and love sooooooooooooo many times.
but back to the topic
A relationship it gives me a chance to open up and become one with another human being and it is the chance to experience feelings so intense you can't explain it.


I just love love :lovestruck:

Oh god this is horrible. I actually cringed.

I can love and have relationships but they have not been very successful until recently (last 5 years or so). I have no idea if true love exists (probably not) and a soulmate (please). Sex is great but I like having the same partner (I'm not against additional partners if that's agreeable). What I wanted is someone who I could live with on a day to day basis without hating it and more than just being fine with it. I open up and share things with him. I don't do it regularly and I don't do it easily and he knows this and is accepting of it. I cook and he does the dishes. That's all it's really about to me.

[Caramel]

Get out of my brain! Seriously, I see this kind of behaviour all the time. Only the other day I had an argument over whether 'true love' exists with a [suspected] xSFx type, and all she could say was 'well you haven't experienced it, so you wouldn't know', despite my refutation of the central point [its existence]. She then tried to convince me that I was an alien sent to suck the love out of this planet... seems fair enough :p

But those people haven't experienced 'true love' either. They think they know the feeling, but in reality they're just chasing a made up fantasy, an image of what it should be like. They attempt to fit the dream and come out disappointed each time.

'True love' is quite the opposite of what they believe it is. It is about complete trust, acceptance, safety, understanding, dealing with life as it comes (or as we shape it), together. It is about liking and enjoying the other person's 'faults'. Its about 'we against the world.' And it grows deeper every day. These things sound awefully cliche, I know that, but this love is so fullfilling, that I wouldn't want to live without it.

[Richard0612]

But those people haven't experienced 'true love' either.

Exactamundo.... a word which I have never used before and hopefully never will again! I agree that they are chasing a vision served up to them by romance novels and 'chick flicks', and know little of the emotional connections required to succeed in a relationship [not that I do either!]

[suzyk]

Relationships are nothing to me. Personally. If I wanted to be appreciated, I'd get a cat and name it Garfield, and we'd live a wonderful life together.

I wouldn't get into a relationship because I'm too sarcastic.

[outrider]

you make it sound like it is a CHORE

Bulletin to all socially adept ENFPs: To an INTJ like me, meeting new people IS a chore!!! It is hard work. This took effort. It was very time-consuming and stressful.

Consider this rather daunting list:

Research various dating services (this seemed to be the most efficient method of meeting a suitable single man)

Call to make appointment then meet with counselor

Write profile

Have hair trimmed and purchase appropriate hair care products

Have makeup done professionally/purchase makeup

Set up appointment with professional shopper/purchase clothing suitable for dates

Have photos taken by professional photographer (employed by service)

Go through books of profiles of men and choose some

Talk to intriguing prospects who also wanted to talk to me

Meet with dating counselor again... and again

Have car detailed (in case man walked me to car)

Clean and nominally redecorate downstairs of condo (in case man picked me up at my home)

Purchase new slipcovers and blinds (to conceal rips and rubs and better hide cat and dog hair)

Do SOMETHING about teetering piles of books, journals and paper downstairs

Recycle recyclables

Go on first dates (arrange time and activity, get dressed neatly, apply makeup without causing major dermatological damage, locate jewelry, locate other appropriate accessories like shoes, solicit advice from friends who have a clue...)

Follow up with men I liked enough to go on second dates

And it goes on and on and on...

Fortunately, I've met someone I really like, and we've been seeing one another exclusively for about two months. He has compatible ideas regarding tolerance for animal hair (he has a large hairy dog) and out-of-control piles of reading material (some of the furniture in his home is collapsing under the strain of piles of books). Now, when we're going somewhere special, I ask him what I should wear rather than calling my friends repeatedly and declaring war on my closet.

But I still want to make a good impression. I don't want him to think I'm a slob (I'm not, but I do work a lot of hours and find that my home decor leans towards the functional. Martha Stewart would shriek in horror if she got one look at my living room, which currently houses a centrifuge). And though I (gasp!) like to look nice when I see him, I'm of the "if you like an item of clothing, buy six in various colors" school of fashion, so I have to put a lot more thought than I usually do (<30 seconds most days) into choosing clothing. Fortunately, I do not have to worry about the fact that I don't have cable (his TV is currently unplugged and housed in a dark corner) or about the cat hacking up hairballs (his dog is capable of much worse).

Whew. I'm worn out, and I still have to go shopping for dinner ingredients for tonight. We are cooking in, and even that isn't simple: I had to read my cookbook and choose a main course recipe that contains ingredients we will both consume (he is making the appetizer and choosing the wine, so this is a joint effort).

For all you INTJs who read down this far: yes, this man is totally worth it, and it doesn't seem like much effort now that we're comfortable with one another. He thinks it's really funny that I eat the exact same thing for breakfast every morning and better yet, understands why. He told me what colors he likes me to wear and hey, that's helpful information. And since he's ISFP, he understands my independence and lack of respect for authority.

For ENFPchick and any non-INTJs who enjoy our company: see the thought process we INTJs go through when we really like you?

[Tenacious B]

They attempt to fit the dream and come out disappointed each time.
This is one of my main obstacles. I see others running around to every single person they can find trying to fit them into some sort of spousal mold, generally with little success.

I just can't think of somebody that I don't know well as a mate. "Hi, nice to meet you. You're single too? Great, lets see if we want to spend the rest of our lives together.":suspicious: The whole system just seems asinine to me. Relationships are hard work and I won't undertake one unless I know the person of interest is worth while. Ideally, I would be best friends with a girl before dating, but that is unfortunately not how our society works.

[punkyplatypus]

Bottom line question is why would you whant to be whit another person and what do people truly get from this behavior.

i like when other people challenge me. eventually people with whom i get into relationships with tend to get boring and repetitive, and i think i have gained all i can from them. however, i know that that's wrong. they too continue to learn and change. with their new knowledge and changed perceptions, i can usually find new challenges in them. the challenges don't always have to mental. knowing that i hate social gatherings, i challenge myself by letting my partner push me into them. even though my preference doesn't change, sometimes i can have fun. then there's the carnal satisfaction from more romantic relationships.

otherwise, being a hermit doesn't sound so bad...

[Parallel]

Are there any INTJ's in here that are in a committed, long-term relationship and really enjoy it?

I need to know that it's possible for me. I had intense feelings for this INFJ that I recently met and I don't know if I can sustain these "feelings" and not revert back to my old apathetic self. I don't want these feelings to slip away because I finally understand what everyone means when they say it's amazing and wonderful and whatnot; but at the same time, all of a sudden I feel despair in that I won't be able to keep it up. What is wrong with me. I'm sick of the excuse that it's simply because I'm an INTJ and I'm cold and unfeeling because I know that I can feel it, but why can't i sustain these feelings?? I'm tired of hurting people and I especially do not want to hurt this INFJ.

[DrEast]

Parallel: Try this mental exercise. You're at home sitting in your favorite chair, reading a good book. Your prospective significant other is in the same room, in a different chair. Just think about this scene as it would most likely play out before reading on. You don't get to do the mental exercise AFTER reading the rest. (Well, you could, but it takes great self-control and powers of objectivity to avoid the power of suggestion and fouling your own test with the answers you WANT to be true. Then again, you're an INTJ.)

What's happening? Is this individual reading their own book (or pursuing their own activity), content just to be with you? That's the good answer. Do you know what it is that they're doing while you enjoy your own literary pursuit? That's very good.

Is this individual trying to distract you, perhaps with something pleasurable? That's the dangerous answer. Can you not even imagine the scene? Then you need more information, and you haven't been around this individual nearly long enough yet to actually know them well enough to form any sort of opinion, let alone a commitment.

This is a little test I use myself sometimes, trying to envision what "life with person X" would be like. If I just can't see it working, then it's just a crush.

[curiousjane]

Parallel: Try this mental exercise. You're at home sitting in your favorite chair, reading a good book. Your prospective significant other is in the same room, in a different chair. Just think about this scene as it would most likely play out before reading on. You don't get to do the mental exercise AFTER reading the rest.

What's happening? Is this individual reading their own book (or pursuing their own activity), content just to be with you? That's the good answer. Do you know what it is that they're doing while you enjoy your own literary pursuit? That's very good.

My best friend and I do this. It would also be a favorite test of compatibility with a significant other. Just the two of us, in the same room, being quiet, doing our own thing.

Mmmmmmm.

[nemo]

Bottom line question is why would you whant to be whit another person and what do people truly get from this behavior.(I know that this question is actually to logical for this topic)

I don`t whant to sound like arrogant jerk any further so please enlight me.

Arrogant? No way, man, I totally sympathize. I think that "falling" for someone is a slightly agonizing experience for all the NT types.

Maybe I'm a bit of a masochist, but, with the right person, I find it sort of fun.

I dunno. For me, life can be pretty dreary, meaningless, and transient; so experiencing those flashes of blissful insanity with a person can make all the difference in the world.

But if you can get along without that, more power to you.

[Parallel]

Parallel: Try this mental exercise. You're at home sitting in your favorite chair, reading a good book. Your prospective significant other is in the same room, in a different chair. Just think about this scene as it would most likely play out before reading on. You don't get to do the mental exercise AFTER reading the rest. (Well, you could, but it takes great self-control and powers of objectivity to avoid the power of suggestion and fouling your own test with the answers you WANT to be true. Then again, you're an INTJ.)

What's happening? Is this individual reading their own book (or pursuing their own activity), content just to be with you? That's the good answer. Do you know what it is that they're doing while you enjoy your own literary pursuit? That's very good.

Is this individual trying to distract you, perhaps with something pleasurable? That's the dangerous answer. Can you not even imagine the scene? Then you need more information, and you haven't been around this individual nearly long enough yet to actually know them well enough to form any sort of opinion, let alone a commitment.

This is a little test I use myself sometimes, trying to envision what "life with person X" would be like. If I just can't see it working, then it's just a crush.

The scene I envisioned was one in which he was either reading his own book, content to be with me, but also one in which I can sense that he constantly feels like he needs my attention and affection but doesn't want to bother me.

If this was psychoanalyzed it would probably mean that men needing my attention and affection leaves me feeling drained so that my emotional defense mechanism automatically shuts them out once I get that creeping feeling that it's starting to happen. But I know all this. I need affirmation that this happens to other INTJ's but somehow they manage to fight it and have a blissful relationship!

[DrEast]

Actually, that sounds like overanalysis. What actually happens in a good relationship is either
a) you find yourself content with the actual playing out of this hypothetical situation, or
b) the book isn't good enough.

[Parallel]

Actually, that sounds like overanalysis. What actually happens in a good relationship is either
a) you find yourself content with the actual playing out of this hypothetical situation, or
b) the book isn't good enough.

So my question is: is a book ever good enough for an INTJ?

Or am I expecting too much too soon?

[curiousjane]

why can't i sustain these feelings??

Because, ultimately, love is a choice. Feelings come and go. And this is coming from somebody of the "feeling" variety.

If you're willing to fight for the relationship, I see that as a positive thing. However (and you already seem to know this), he is going to need/want additional affection from you eventually. If he doesn't want to bother you, it could be because he understands your needs, or he still isn't comfortable enough with you to discuss this, or feels threatened that you will bristle if he brings it up.

Something my INTJ mother once said really stuck with me. She said my father at one point called her bluff and asked her point blank why she was unwilling to accept his love. That finally got through to her, I guess. She realized then that he was willing to work at it; that she was worth it, but he needed her to open up and trust him if it was to go any further. (Of course, I am talking about another "Thinker" here. Not sure how this would have gone if she was dealing with a touchy-feely kind of man.)

Hope this helps?

[Parallel]

Hope this helps?

Yes, thanks a lot!

[robolizard55]

I can certainly say I have never "fallen in love" in a whimsical hasty way. Being flattered by attention from a lady or three is invigorating, and that was pretty neat for a time. I certainly knew that process was not love, but thought maybe that would come later...? Turns out, no. I think many of us need to figure out what we want, then allow ourselves to be ready for it to happen, then allow it to happen. By 'it', I mean love.

I am sure all of us are 'individuals' and all that, but I can not understand falling in love many times, regularly, and easily as a previous non-INTJ indicated. That makes me "cringe" as another member put it.

Now, after all that naysaying... Love is incredible! And to reiterate a point about what love is and entails. For me it is a conscious decision to be ready to submit complete trust in someone else and then have that actually happen and be reciprocated. The conditions must be right. After a quick hit of chemistry (to which she said she never picked up on until I told her I felt the connection, the classic way an INTJ should have emotion), I then decided to get to know her completely. After about three months I then told her that I had gotten to know her sufficiently to tell her we were ultimately compatible. She agreed (she is an INTJ, as well). It sounds very business-like, but it was suffused with this incredible "feeling". I guess a sustained consistent "feeling" is what I describe as the part of love I truly do not think everyone has in relationships, but it is what defines 'love'. Hell yeah it's work. Again, I decided that it was worth the work, told her so, and she agreed.

Oh yeah... and the sex is great. I mean, seriously. Hours of incredibly sweaty toil. Work. Like pulling weeds, churning the soil, planting seeds, and watching plants grow, in 108 degrees of humid southeast Oklahoma summer. Then you look at what you've done. It's amazing when you do it alone, but when she's there to share in it... Wow, just wow.

Anyway, we figured that out after months of actually seeing if were compatible in a relationship stability sense. Take it slow, make sure it'll last. Explore the pros and cons, and have that 'feeling'. Now that's a relationship.

[fINTiP]

Well this is all very interesting.

To outrider, post #74- that's very interesting. So decisive. In my pursuit to find out what INTP really 'means', this shows a lot-

I would be incredibly haphazard in my going about the whole relationship process. I don't think of the work it is; it's no biggie to me. I'd just kind of be along for the ride. I'd probably spent countless hours up thinking about it, and be terribly indecisive if she was someone I wanted to marry, if I was making the right choices, what she thinks of me.

But I wouldn't really plan ahead. I'd take a shower, and if I knew she'd see my house, I'd spend some time cleaning that (something I very rarely do, but occasionally feel compelled to do without bother... very odd, the idea of cleaning my house.)

Granted, out of those countless hours, ideas would come, and so I'd have a rough frame of what things I want her to know, a strong idea of what I think of 'us' when it comes up, of what kind of dates I'd want to go on with her.

I relate to the INTJ's, however, in the realization of the rarity of love; I still am waiting for a suitable girl. I almost found one, once, but that passed... she was far too strong F, to the point that she couldn't think clearly.

Pity.

I can list every crush I've ever had, and give details about how I viewed that situation and what I learned from it. They are that few, that clear.

Anyways, I've put much thought into the relationship thing. I imposed a "6 month" rule on myself in the pubescent years, and decided a good way to keep myself from a rash infatuation was to be close friends with the girl in question for 6 months (at least, more if needed) before I could make a decision on the topic. I still hold to this, and it's kept me out of trouble more than once.

But probably not more than twice, seeing as 'love', being the lofty thing it is, is so rare.

A relationship is something I eventually want, but I honestly feel like at this point I'm not ready for one. Normal people might argue otherwise, but... I feel like I need to get a better view on what I want my life to look like before I try and take someone with me.

I rarely find a serious attraction to other girls; I can't say I know one female that catches my proverbial eye currently. I am not interested in dating for any other purpose than eventually marrying, and I have fairly high standards (though, abstract; I am a "P" after all). She must be intellectually stimulating, beautiful, and just 'get' things like I do. I guess that means dominant "N" with similar views on life.

I still haven't kissed a girl since Kindergarten; but that was a simpler time, I guess, unclouded by the mind I currently view life through.

Also, I too winced at the ENFP. Incorrect punctuation/grammar/spelling never looked so wrong on the internet...

Still, you guys should see the INTP forum; I can think of one poster who does not use perfect grammar and spelling.

Which is odd, I think; I would imagine the INTJ's would be slightly more anal about that sort of thing.

(Please don't throw rotten tomatoes?)

[Roux]

I have a Significant Other whom I love very much, but we met through slightly less-than-traditional means. We hung out on the same forum and got chatting on AIM. Fast-forward 1 ½ year and I suggest (mostly in jest) that he comes to visit, he agrees, the rest is, as they say, history.

Prior to this relationship I had attempted to do the whole relationship deal a couple of times with little success and I pretty much didn't get what the big deal was all about. For me, attraction is primarily mental. While I certainly don't shun a nice six-pack or whatever I distinctly remember that one of my "swoon!" moments came at that first week while we were having dinner, and I discovered that he was a complete geek for history, American Civil War to be specific. It was a long-distance relationship, he travelled across the atlantic to see me, and it still is a long-distance relationship (though I have relocated to the same continent for education purposes but my school of choice wasn't anywhere near him).

What I'm trying to say with this story is that for me, and perhaps for you, I require very specific things for a relationship to get off the ground. I need to know the person in question pretty well before an attraction can develop, and I need my independence. Especially in the beginning or else I get all twitchy. How these things work is different for everyone, it's not easy just knowing your approach and it involves no mean-sized piece of luck.

If you find the right kind of person a relationship is definitely worth it. It is an opportunity to strengthen yourself, develop your strong and weak sides and being with someone you love has the positive side-effect of making you happy in numerous ways. Its not without work, but nothing in life is, really, so it's all about the price.

However, just because a good relationship is worth throwing some effort into it doesn't mean that your relationship should be the be-all end-all of your existence, that's not healthy. Neither should anyone have a relationship for the sake of having one, or cling to one that's gone sour for fear of being alone. That's the distinction to make.

[outrider]

But I wouldn't really plan ahead. I'd take a shower, and if I knew she'd see my house, I'd spend some time cleaning that (something I very rarely do, but occasionally feel compelled to do without bother... very odd, the idea of cleaning my house.)

That list was a lot of first impression stuff. I think it's hard to tell whether you want to know someone better until the second or third meeting, so I felt it very important to do my very best out of the gate. I made a "to do" list since that's what I do when I have an overwhelming task looming.

I relate to the INTJ's, however, in the realization of the rarity of love

I don't know if love is rare or if others may utilize a less strict definition of love.

A relationship is something I eventually want, but I honestly feel like at this point I'm not ready for one. Normal people might argue otherwise, but... I feel like I need to get a better view on what I want my life to look like before I try and take someone with me.

Well, what IS normal? I think it is exceedingly odd not to consider how another person would fit into one's life before going out to actively look for a companion... but other types do this all the time, it seems.

I rarely find a serious attraction to other girls; I can't say I know one female that catches my proverbial eye currently. I am not interested in dating for any other purpose than eventually marrying, and I have fairly high standards (though, abstract; I am a "P" after all). She must be intellectually stimulating, beautiful, and just 'get' things like I do. I guess that means dominant "N" with similar views on life.

Judging from my own experience and those of other INTJs in this forum who seem to be in happy, long-term relationships and marriages, I wouldn't rule out any groups. In my experience, "N" does not equal intelligent or interesting. People are individuals.

Though I've been with NTs, NFs and SPs before, my ISFP boyfriend and I really "get" one another. For example, he understands why I come home from work after seeing a clinical case that puzzles me, go straight to my library and won't rest until I think the whole thing through. This is not something he would ever want to do himself, but he respects my need to do this. He would never interrupt or distract me; being ISFP, he has a long list of ongoing projects and doesn't require my company to amuse himself. And though he does not work in my field, he is definitely bright enough to understand what I'm researching (if I give him a brief synopsis, he is capable of asking one or two pertinent questions that point me in a fresh direction). He simply appreciates that my mind has different needs than his; similarly, I appreciate him.

Take home message: when you decide to look for a companion, cast a wide net. You may be pleasantly surprised!

[geonerd]

maybe it is weird to not want a relationship, but who cares? This is the way I see it:

I simply cannot deal with beating-around-the-bush sugar-coated crap. Perhaps the other party is interested in not hurting my feelings, but guess what? You wont if you are just blunt and honest. When I've asked for honesty, people run screaming into the hills. Do you want a relationship? Do you just want to have sex now and then? They can't handle this.

I need to have these boundaries set though, because if I don't know what is going on I will think about all of the different possibilities of what could be going on...and this is rather draining. I really don't have the time and energy to do this, so I just avoid it altogether. I have better things to do. Hence, no ring. And hence, I am an active member of another online group called "My friends are getting married. I'm just getting drunk." Yep, I've come to terms with it!

[sriv]

Anyone here get into relationships for the challenge or to screw the other over?

[Uytuun]

If, at this point, you have a goal to achieve that outweighs persuing a relationship, then go after your goal - by all means. It is that focus, and intensity that this personality was made for.

Very sound advice.

[fINTiP]

I wouldn't call it sound enough to not be able to be argued against.

--

Outrider, thank you for the response. Was worth reading.

One clarification, however, was that (and this is my fault for not writing clearly) by saying "I guess that means a strong 'N'", I was referring to that last quality I listed- "...she must just *get* things like I do."

That intuitive grasp is essential (at least it feels that way at this point) to having deep discussion [at least with me] because of how I think; constantly going off on many tangents, I need someone who is thinking in the same way as I am to have that.

Perhaps, though, there are "S" types out there that have a highly developed "N" as well. I don't mean to be short sighted or anything, just fairly new to comprehending what these types actually mean, when all the letters are put together.

--

That list was a lot of first impression stuff. I think it's hard to tell whether you want to know someone better until the second or third meeting, so I felt it very important to do my very best out of the gate. I made a "to do" list since that's what I do when I have an overwhelming task looming.

Ah, but that feeling- "...I felt it very important to do my very best out of the gate"- I am not really trying to think that far ahead or anything. I actually prefer just being normal, because I kind of don't want to sustain some kind of super-self image while we're in the relationship, so I'm not interested in doing my 'very best' or anything. I just do what I normally do.

Just different, not superior or inferior.

I don't know if love is rare or if others may utilize a less strict definition of love.

Yes, but my [/our] definition of love makes it rare. If I change the definition of love to something much more commonly found (and, IMO, inferior), then I am just speaking of something else. So, I still say that, definitively, what I understand to be love is a rare thing to experience.

If someone else calls love common, then chances are they are speaking of something different than I.

:)

[TehBeefah]

Are there any INTJ's in here that are in a committed, long-term relationship and really enjoy it?

I need to know that it's possible for me. I had intense feelings for this INFJ that I recently met and I don't know if I can sustain these "feelings" and not revert back to my old apathetic self. I don't want these feelings to slip away because I finally understand what everyone means when they say it's amazing and wonderful and whatnot; but at the same time, all of a sudden I feel despair in that I won't be able to keep it up. What is wrong with me. I'm sick of the excuse that it's simply because I'm an INTJ and I'm cold and unfeeling because I know that I can feel it, but why can't i sustain these feelings?? I'm tired of hurting people and I especially do not want to hurt this INFJ.

I WAS in a committed long-term relationship with an INFJ (until a few weeks ago when she dumped me), and I did really enjoy it in every possible way I knew how (and even in some new ways unknown to me before). She thought I never opened up to her about my issues and feelings, but the fact of the matter is that I never really harbored much that I felt like I needed to talk about. I don't think it's being apathetic, and I don't think that you're doomed to being a cold and unfeeling. You feel what you do for the person because of what they are, and what the provide for you. If you are comfortable enough with yourself (like many INTJs are), your partner needs to accept the fact that you will tend to act reserved and apathetic, even though you aren't. You just don't have an unlimited supply of things to discuss with them, and that's okay. I kind of lost my train of thought in the middle of this, but I hope it at least makes some sense. If you think it's worth pursuing, you don't want to make the mistake of letting it slip away from you.

[outrider]

That intuitive grasp is essential (at least it feels that way at this point) to having deep discussion [at least with me] because of how I think; constantly going off on many tangents, I need someone who is thinking in the same way as I am to have that.

Well, you know yourself best. :thinking:

In my case, I've met NTs and NFs who were initially appealing thought-pattern-wise but didn't work in the long term. The SP I'm now with approaches ideas from a fresh perspective. In some ways, he goes off on more tangents than I, though his tend to be concrete, project-related and mine tend to be abstract, concept-related.

Just recommending that you leave the door open!

Ah, but that feeling- "...I felt it very important to do my very best out of the gate"- I am not really trying to think that far ahead or anything. I actually prefer just being normal, because I kind of don't want to sustain some kind of super-self image while we're in the relationship, so I'm not interested in doing my 'very best' or anything. I just do what I normally do.

I just didn't want to be rejected initially for a stupid, superficial reason.

My boyfriend does not expect that I will show up in makeup or clothing requiring dry cleaning (unless we have planned something formal). He does not criticize my stacks of books and journals, and understands that sometimes cat hair gets out of control. I'm not sustaining anything unnatural; I could never carry that off over time.

He started to meet the "real me" somewhere between dates 3 and 4. He still hasn't met all of her, but I don't know all of him, either, so we're even.

Yes, but my [/our] definition of love makes it rare.

Okay; we are talking about the same thing.

[fINTiP]

Then we're all good, except for the following comment:

I just didn't want to be rejected initially for a stupid, superficial reason.

If I am rejected for such a reason, then I'm probably not interested in said person. Really.

Oh, and I have no intentions of shutting any door. Noble of your to try and stop me, but I'm just trying to formulate what might theoretically be optimal. I don't plan to apply that as some kind of format or anything. I just want to speculate.

(Typical INTP, I suppose.)

Best of luck in the mind game that is dating! May things bode well between you and your ISTP!

[outrider]

If I am rejected for such a reason, then I'm probably not interested in said person. Really.

Initially I found myself rejecting men for somewhat superficial reasons based on relatively minor aspects of their profiles. I figured that if I am relatively objective and this is how I react, what might men think of me, especially if the visual is displeasing (men do tend to be visual creatures)? So I went all out (for me). I didn't do anything I hadn't considered doing for myself but hadn't yet due to lack of motivation. This was self-improvement for myself, too.

You're right; it's unlikely I would have been interested in someone for whom I had to "keep up appearances". But I also knew that I had to make some practice phone calls and maybe even go on some practice dates, so I'd be less awkward when I met someone I really liked.

As it happened, the fellow I'm with now was one of the first I selected, spoke with, and met in person. We seemed to develop a comfort level early on, and that was a surprise.

Noble of your to try and stop me, but I'm just trying to formulate what might theoretically be optimal. I don't plan to apply that as some kind of format or anything. I just want to speculate.

(Typical INTP, I suppose.)

LOL

I'm INTJ: I wouldn't try to stop you. My plan was to state my opinion, sit back, and watch you waffle...

Best of luck in the mind game that is dating! May things bode well between you and your ISTP!

ISFP. Thanks. Mind games make me really tired and irritable, and we aren't really dating anymore. I think we've actually progressed to the early stages of an honest relationship.

[Nihilum]

What's the point? Maybe if someone were able to understand my enigmatic nature and penetrate the facade, they would have a chance. No one has yet. But that's my way of finding out who I would even want to be in a relationship with.

[Luthor Rex]

The reason it feels so alien to everyone is because it goes against the propagation of the species. The innate drive possessed by all living things to keep the species alive by having children. Gay and Lesbian relationships also taunt this innate drive and (at least in my opinion) is why they are met with such hostility. The lack of a desire to mate can be seen as an undesired mutation and be scorned.

I'll bet if some young & lovely ENFP's swarmed the OP, it wouldn't feel so alien.

:pimp:

[rahdam]

The right lover can promote personal growth and increase the range of life experience. Two can accomplish more than one. With that said, I think many people pursue relationships simply to be in relationships, regardless of the specificity of the fit between the two partners. This can lead to codependency issues and can retard the growth of both individuals. Rather, healthy relationships exist between two established individuals who serve to amplify life for each other.