are people getting more shallow?

[searcher]

I have a real thing about shallowness.
What is it with superficiality these days? Personally I think that people are getting more shallow.
Your views?

[Homini Lupus]

A shallow person is easier to control, so slogans like "do what you feel", "follow your heart", "say what you think" are common in advertising: thinking people doesn't buy junk just because it's "cool", they think the pros and cons then they make their decision.
Also, society is more and more popular so people is afraid of looking like "snob" if they go beyond very simple language (notice that, since snob is the short version of "sine nobilitate" or "without nobility" they are just behaving in a very snob way).
But I'm not sure this is really something increasing; it looks like so, but I'm sure even ancient romans tought things like "ahh the old ways...". Probably, looking at the past with a more inquisitive eye, he would find it wasn't better but just different.

[thod]

Perhaps you are becoming more sophisticated its a relative judegement after all.

[Motor Jax]

advertising what's popular also makes for very good sells

[Moriarty]

I read a great Washinton Post article about the dumbing down of America recently. The core concept was that popular culture is pushing intellectual efforts out of the way to make room for "Joe Sixpack's" zone of interest and comfort. Joe is a big spender, after all. I'll see if I can find it and post the link for those interested in reading it.





Moriarty added to this post, 5 minutes and 0 seconds later...

Here you go:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A quick snippet:
"Dumbness, to paraphrase the late senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, has been steadily defined downward for several decades, by a combination of heretofore irresistible forces. These include the triumph of video culture over print culture (and by video, I mean every form of digital media, as well as older electronic ones); a disjunction between Americans' rising level of formal education and their shaky grasp of basic geography, science and history; and the fusion of anti-rationalism with anti-intellectualism."

A scathing, good read.

[ElstonGunn]

But I'm not sure this is really something increasing; it looks like so, but I'm sure even ancient romans tought things like "ahh the old ways...". Probably, looking at the past with a more inquisitive eye, he would find it wasn't better but just different.

Yeah, ever since Cain murdered Abel, people have been complaining about how "those dang kids don't have any respect" and/or "won't get off my lawn." I don't think people are a whole lot better, worse, shallow, or sincere than they've ever been.

The problem, if there is one, is that people are more visible. Combine that with how people are often rewarded for dumb or shallow behavior, then it looks like you've got a problem.

[searcher]

I actually read a book along these subject lines a while ago. "rise of the airheads".
Good book.

[Kotetsu]

The general shallowness of people makes me all the happier and enthused when I meet someone complex in their thoughts and actions, but I think it has made me subconsciously cynical of people as a whole. I guess five years in a school with 2200+ pupils will do that to you if you're an introspective analysing type of guy.

[Tual]

Also remember, more shallow incompetent people means more good job opportunities for you. ;D

Article is a nice read by the way.

[Kotetsu]

Some of the comments weren't exactly encouraging though. XD

[Haphazard]

People always complain that the past was better. I think I'd rather live in a world full of idiots than a world full of slightly more competent people where few people lived past the age of fifty and racism and abuse are abound. But, perhaps, that's just me. Even if people are getting more shallow, I'd rather live now than in any other time.

The masses have always been stupid and will always be stupid. This doesn't mean that individuals in the masses can't be clever -- in fact, quite a few of them are -- but the masses, as a group, aren't very bright. It's as they say in Men In Black, "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky animals."

It's my belief that in this information age that the shallowness of people isn't getting greater but is perhaps just more visible.

[HousesOfApollo]

I don't think they're getting more shallow so much as they're getting less deep. :undecided:.

My own personal theory on shallowness is that it stems from an overload of stimulation, rather than a general lack of it. People today are bombarded with more information than they can handle. News and information comes in from more locations, and it's less nuanced since there's less time spent on each important story; and there are more stories about meaningless trivia crap since that rakes in the ratings.

Because of this general information overload, the information itself becomes less relevant to people.

Unless, of course, you're super analytical. If you're not analytical enough to parse the mother load of info, you're going to make a judgment based upon your primary mode of making decisions. People are just too simple for the world they've made themselves, and that's sort of depressing.

I can then go on-and-on about all the nuances, but that would take some time; perhaps I'll make a post of it someday. The fact of the matter is -- and I've learned this the hard way -- that we don't honestly value critical thought in this country. Even those who are highly educated often do not possess adequate critical thinking processes -- they know, sure, but they do not think. Thinking behavior is not often rewarded, and sometimes it's even punished. Society is like any living organism, and conformity is its immune system. Those who deviate enough from the norm are resisted; those who conform to the norm have it easier.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Do you think shallowness = lack of introspection? If this is so, then does an individual have any real control over how introspective they are?

[HousesOfApollo]

Do you think shallowness = lack of introspection? If this is so, then does an individual have any real control over how introspective they are?


I think it all depends on how deep it all goes. For example, I know it was extremely painful for me to introspect; it took months for me to feel normal again. Some people will have an easier time of it; others are going to be tortured. Those who are brave enough to battle their own souls have earned my deepest respect.

If someone were to ask me right now why people do the crazy things they do, the only response I could give would be to say that they do what do because they do not really know what they do. It's almost as if there is less of that looking-in-the-mirror self-awareness which separates us from non-sentient species. This is arrogant, I know; I'm just telling you what it's like for me.

There is greater distance between thought and action for them. I hate this because when I'm surrounded by really shallow people there is distinct lack of presence; it's almost like they're objectified. Perhaps this is just because I'm used to being so serious, so aware of the world. Some people are just more into life than others; most of them are just going through the motions.

It would be less infuriating if human beings didn't have the potential to do much greater things. :angry:.

[Haphazard]

There is greater distance between thought and action for them. Actions seem to just happen. I hate this because when I'm surrounded by really shallow people there is distinct lack of presence; it's almost like they're objects. Perhaps this is just because I'm used to being so serious, so aware of the world. Some people are just more into life than others.

My thoughts are usually quite active, but they usually have a distance between my actions. This is perhaps why I don't act so often.

I usually find shallowness when I corner somebody to try to get an opinion. A person's critique is extremely revealing.

[searcher]

Do you think shallowness is encouraged in a way because it allows for easier control over the mindless masses? Plenty of business in this. Take packaging for example. If I was in charge of the world then everything would come in white cardboard or recyclable plastic or paper with black writing and no pictures. Arial font. But no. People are visual creatures so there must be colour and photos and shapes and fancy fonts. Brainwashing I call it. Convincing people to buy things that
A - they don't need
and B - they don't actually even want.

[HousesOfApollo]

My thoughts are usually quite active, but they usually have a distance between my actions. This is perhaps why I don't act so often.

I usually find shallowness when I corner somebody to try to get an opinion. A person's critique is extremely revealing.

I meant like thought before the action, in the sense that their actions don't have much thought to them; as if the thinking process is not a part of their lives. On the other hand, I have to think about every action; there may be less acts, but each act is more efficient. Action and thought share a closer relationship, because the actions have more thought behind them.

Do you think shallowness is encouraged in a way because it allows for easier control over the mindless masses? Plenty of business in this. Take packaging for example. If I was in charge of the world then everything would come in white cardboard or recyclable plastic or paper with black writing and no pictures. Arial font. But no. People are visual creatures so there must be colour and photos and shapes and fancy fonts. Brainwashing I call it. Convincing people to buy things that
A - they don't need
and B - they don't actually even want.

Well, the governments of the world were doing this long before corporations; but now corporations have gotten so good at bullsh--er, em, Public Relations--that now the government hires PR people to work for them. Pretty packaging seems pretty minor when you consider the extremely limited worldview that is pounded into us from an extremely young age. For example, so many Americans can't seem to think outside of the Republican/Democrat spectrum, which is often quite slim; and that effectively delimits our political options.

I mean, I understand where you're coming from with all this talk about fuzzy warm packaging; that's just a symptom though. What I find more important is the fact that we can't even think ourselves out of a system that we hate. Americans, in general, have a low opinion of their government--just look at how poorly congress polls. Yet, does anyone consider any options outside of the absolute two-party system? Is it even considered, seriously? No, because there's only two options.

Campaign slogans and political ads are like fuzzy warm packaging on an awesome scale. People who are Republicans just seem to know that they're not Democrats; likewise the other way around. Regardless of any political convictions, this is a terrible way to understand politics; it undermines the entire system.

Retardation is the only way to understand it. I guess it really does all come down to colorful packaging.

[DeadSpace]

I have a real thing about shallowness.
What is it with superficiality these days? Personally I think that people are getting more shallow.
Your views?


Definitely seems to be a trend, social standing, appearence, manner of speech, your material possesions, your job, etc. All have much more impact on how you're viewed as a human being than they used to be. The days of your word being your bond seems to be coming to an end, external counts for much more than internal, who you appear to be > who you are.

[Homini Lupus]

From another perspective who you appear IS who you are. To the others. If you appear self confident peopoe will become to trust you and perhaps you will really get self confident.
I think the real problem is that who you are is defined by what you've got. And this is probably a problem as old as private property.
Also, people need standardisation: we get an overflow of information wich must be processed quickly so we have to grab the max of information about the people we meet in the shortest period of time; from a standard looking person a body will expect a standard behaviour thus he will have nothing to fear and will be able to interact using standard topics. The more normal people are there the more they can ignore who is not standard.
If anybody of you ever tried non-standard looking appearance he should understand what I mean. Expecially if they did it in high school.

What I said to appearance can be applied to talking and thinking: what can I expect from a non-standard thinking person? Some would say interesting thinking, some others dangerous thinking.
Try to talk loudly about a topic from a non-standard perspective with somebody you know and look at the stares you'll get from people around you. Many of those people would define themselves as liberal minded (I mean no political affiliation here) but when they face non-standard differences (most have learned to accept some diffences as "normal") the suddenly become the most closed minded in the world.
I'm not saying that in past times people have dealt with differences better than we do today tough. Maybe in some societies or in some very defined periods of time, but generally different peoples looked dangerous/absurd/grotesque or at best a good source of trade.

[Iveyrockstar]

You have to give consideration to the subject of "Worldview". Where are you located, in what social/political/economical/theological type of environment were you raised... On the whole I would say that America has a shallow culture, but that is simply an evolution of our society and the passing down of the early system of social classes that traces it's roots back to medieval european monarchy's. Ie. Kings, Lords, Subjects, Nobleman, Knights, Countrymen/Peasants. One could even make the argument that it's roots could be traced back to rome and it's system of government which established the first long-standing kingdom to conquer the known world. With these classes clearly defined (in simple terms: "Those who have money and power, and those who dont") naturally, it has followed that regulation of classes by government/ socio-economic systems and the inherent capability of a class to "re-define" itself in terms of social status, has brought about the chain of events which have defined the social norms for these areas of American culture. For example: Had America been a Communist nation, we would not have classes based on our wealth and power, and thus the chain of events would not have brought about the leisure, decadence, and wanton waste that our country is so well known for. In short, had we been the product of another government system, it is likely that we would care much more about survival and less about fashion. We simply lack culture as a nation because our heritage has not been accurately portrayed throughout our nations development, and thus pleasure has been the drive of society. When the majority of the country is made up of a class that can afford to compare themselves with the person living next to them, it's bound to be a shallow world out there... But that's just my opinion...

[DeadSpace]

From another perspective who you appear IS who you are. To the others. If you appear self confident peopoe will become to trust you and perhaps you will really get self confident.
I think the real problem is that who you are is defined by what you've got. And this is probably a problem as old as private property.
Also, people need standardisation: we get an overflow of information wich must be processed quickly so we have to grab the max of information about the people we meet in the shortest period of time; from a standard looking person a body will expect a standard behaviour thus he will have nothing to fear and will be able to interact using standard topics. The more normal people are there the more they can ignore who is not standard.
If anybody of you ever tried non-standard looking appearance he should understand what I mean. Expecially if they did it in high school.

What I said to appearance can be applied to talking and thinking: what can I expect from a non-standard thinking person? Some would say interesting thinking, some others dangerous thinking.
Try to talk loudly about a topic from a non-standard perspective with somebody you know and look at the stares you'll get from people around you. Many of those people would define themselves as liberal minded (I mean no political affiliation here) but when they face non-standard differences (most have learned to accept some diffences as "normal") the suddenly become the most closed minded in the world.
I'm not saying that in past times people have dealt with differences better than we do today tough. Maybe in some societies or in some very defined periods of time, but generally different peoples looked dangerous/absurd/grotesque or at best a good source of trade.

I never judge someone on their appearence...to damn many factors there to make any rational decision on how someone is. Know some damn scary looking people, yet they have an honor you would be lucky to find in a man in a 3 piece suit. Appearence does not make the person, that only applies to shallow people themselves...who also judge by that standard. WYSIWYG isn't always true when it comes to people, that only applies to software.
Know some nice upper and upper middleclass types...dress well, nicely groomed, latest styles...and they'll stab you in the back without hesitation, lie to your face, and tell everyone how they played a low class. All based on appearence or background.

Standardised people? where's the challenge in that? I like the differences...makes me think, get to know someone before making any judgements. Cookie cutter people...ugh. I don't care about stares, dirty looks, or whispering, if people or too stupid to look beyond physical appearence...they're not people interesting enough to even worry about...kinda makes culling the herd easier of who you might want to interact with.

[Iveyrockstar]

Thanks, and that was a great article in the post... I've been arguing to this effect for years. This "lack of knowledge", or as I would more appropriately term it: The "Idiots guide to learning how to learn to do things good and stuff"(news media), has caused many individuals of noted intellect to have to choose between good or evil in terms of the career paths and social environments in which they will be engaged to achieve productive life in America. What you find (especially for an INTJ) is a select group of individuals who are capable of incredible thought and reasoning, but whose awareness of this culure drives them to either ultimately give in to society completely and eat the forbidden fruit, or to live life in defiance of an entire society, government, and culture. I'm stuck somewhere between the two because Im miserable when I fall to either extreme... But somehow, I'm still miserable in the middle. Maybe I should just go into the damn woods like in Walden... I will say that the stimulating thoughts and the comments of others in which new ideas are introduced provides a solid coping mechanism for this world of imbecile's that we live in.

Definition of "imbecile": To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The definition is funny to say the least.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I think it all depends on how deep it all goes. For example, I know it was extremely painful for me to introspect; it took months for me to feel normal again. Some people will have an easier time of it; others are going to be tortured. Those who are brave enough to battle their own souls have earned my deepest respect.

If someone were to ask me right now why people do the crazy things they do, the only response I could give would be to say that they do what do because they do not really know what they do. It's almost as if there is less of that looking-in-the-mirror self-awareness which separates us from non-sentient species. This is arrogant, I know; I'm just telling you what it's like for me.

There is greater distance between thought and action for them. I hate this because when I'm surrounded by really shallow people there is distinct lack of presence; it's almost like they're objectified. Perhaps this is just because I'm used to being so serious, so aware of the world. Some people are just more into life than others; most of them are just going through the motions.

It would be less infuriating if human beings didn't have the potential to do much greater things. :angry:.
This makes me think of a common theme on this forum............small talk. Perhaps the 'deepness' we attribute to the INTJ way of thinking and the 'shallowness' of many other types is what bothers us most about small talk. It's as if everyone is deliberately turning a blind eye to what's really in front of them. I'm not talking about what's important or unimportant......I'm talking about reality. It's like putting on perfume to cover your B.O. instead of washing the dirt off.

[quest ion]

Maby there is time, only enough for us to be shallow.

[Motor Jax]

maybe with the new technology nowadays, everybody else is deeper than we realize

[Jgib5328]

I think the people of today are just as shallow as they've always been. Maybe it's just the age group that your in that became shallow.

[Motor Jax]

or maybe cause we are much more aware of what we know that we tend to see what should be apparent to the younger generation

[Homini Lupus]

New generations face a more complex world. They aren't more shallow, they face more complex challenges and they are much more aware of the world's complexity wich makes them better at processing informations and worse at providing solutions or decisions. I had a few years of pedagogue experience and that's what I noticed.

[Motor Jax]

New generations face a more complex world. They aren't more shallow, they face more complex challenges and they are much more aware of the world's complexity wich makes them better at processing informations and worse at providing solutions or decisions. I had a few years of pedagogue experience and that's what I noticed.


i think that's what i couldn't quiet put my finger on concerning the younger generations

leaving problems to machines to solve have demobilized their neurons quiet a bit

[searcher]

I think the people of today are just as shallow as they've always been. Maybe it's just the age group that your in that became shallow.
Sadly, this is quite possible

[HousesOfApollo]

I never judge someone on their appearence...to damn many factors there to make any rational decision on how someone is. Know some damn scary looking people, yet they have an honor you would be lucky to find in a man in a 3 piece suit. Appearence does not make the person, that only applies to shallow people themselves...who also judge by that standard. WYSIWYG isn't always true when it comes to people, that only applies to software.
Know some nice upper and upper middleclass types...dress well, nicely groomed, latest styles...and they'll stab you in the back without hesitation, lie to your face, and tell everyone how they played a low class. All based on appearence or background.

Standardised people? where's the challenge in that? I like the differences...makes me think, get to know someone before making any judgements. Cookie cutter people...ugh. I don't care about stares, dirty looks, or whispering, if people or too stupid to look beyond physical appearence...they're not people interesting enough to even worry about...kinda makes culling the herd easier of who you might want to interact with.

I agree. As much as mediocrity may make it easier to succeed, it does not help me survive. I'd much rather a world full of worthy opponents; a world to challenge us and further our own evolution as a species--and as individuals. INTJ's are better when they're challenged; that's based upon the assumption that I'm INTJ. I know for a fact that my mind races at twice normal speed when I'm trying to overcome something. :idea:.

What you find (especially for an INTJ) is a select group of individuals who are capable of incredible thought and reasoning, but whose awareness of this culure drives them to either ultimately give in to society completely and eat the forbidden fruit, or to live life in defiance of an entire society, government, and culture. I'm stuck somewhere between the two because Im miserable when I fall to either extreme... But somehow, I'm still miserable in the middle. Maybe I should just go into the damn woods like in Walden... I will say that the stimulating thoughts and the comments of others in which new ideas are introduced provides a solid coping mechanism for this world of imbecile's that we live in.

I've been miserable for a very long time; ever since I was able to speak. From the very moment I uttered words, I was considered unbelievably belligerent and "stupid." Teachers usually hated me so much that they sabotaged my education; therefore, I struggled to fit in. My own childhood patterns of behavior are very, very much the INTJ profile; if, of course, you allow for a great deal of emotional problems.

I just wanted to world to make sense, and the sort of things that people put me through absolutely did not make sense. Even my parents had to argue me into doing things.

After years of psychological torment and medications, I have built up a lot of deep resistance to my own innermost tendencies, as they used to cause me a great deal of suffering at the hands of others. For example, I really like it here, and I enjoy doing the "INTJ thing"; but I do get quite scared of being punished, even though I'm far removed from the world of my childhood.

This makes me think of a common theme on this forum............small talk. Perhaps the 'deepness' we attribute to the INTJ way of thinking and the 'shallowness' of many other types is what bothers us most about small talk. It's as if everyone is deliberately turning a blind eye to what's really in front of them. I'm not talking about what's important or unimportant......I'm talking about reality. It's like putting on perfume to cover your B.O. instead of washing the dirt off.

Yea! The sugar-coating is something I absolutely can't stand. Why would two people who know the same horrible truth choose to not talk about in a frank and earnest manner? It's as if the mere mentioning of something uncomfortable will cause it to happen. Like if someone says "If it keeps on raining, the levee is going to break," the levee actually will break, when such a statement is just a rational conclusion. But when I choose to project forward like this, I'm told to just keep my mouth shut.

Even though I know for certain that the levee is going to break, and that we had better run for Chicago. I've seen it all through intuition and observance of the facts. [Half of my thinking processes are just variations of Led Zeppelin lyrics.]

[Provoker]

This is true and I think technology has a lot to do with it. Before, people had to handle a lot more information at once when carrying out various tasks but now everything can be stored on a hard drive. In our current context, it is more important that a person can get information at the click of a button then memorizing the data. As a result, people are becoming very dependent on these devices. But one could imagine a war wherein the infrastructure of a country gets bombed to smithereens and people are hopeless without their computers and servers. So first, because people aren't forced to learn things sufficiently people have a superficial understanding in many areas. Also, because there is so much garbage online people are spoon-fed rediculous information. FOr example, the idea that red wine is good for your heart...this is an example of a rediculous pop idea that people use as a pretext to tell themselves its ok to drink and buy more wine. But it isn't good intelligence, the experiments surveyed people who drink wine who tend to have a higher level of socioeconomic status. Survey a bunch of homeless people and see if red wine increases their life expectancy and you'll see much different results. The problem I'm getting at is that with so much information going around people cherry pick intelligence and this, again, is a superficial understanding of things.

The other problem is that in a capitalist system rank is mistaken for intelligence. Huge sums of wealth are put into marketing rediculous products that people don't need meanwhile 1/3 of the world is living in extreme poverty. We now have the pills to cure polio and people all over the world are dying of polio while I'm getting emails for viagara. People are increasingly becoming commodified and the worth of what they have to say is correlated with how much they make. The working class absorb the values of the capitalist class but these values only keep them working and hungry for the bourgeois dream. Accordingly, the interest of the working class and capitalist class are NOT one and the same. But when the working class absorbs capitalist values the system recreates itself and keeps the wealthy in power. In short, capitalism produces a consummer culture and a consummer culture is more concerned with consumption than intelligence.

This was evident half a century ago when proud American capitalists were embarassed when the first artificial satellite (Sputnik) was launched by communists. They realized that even with a robust market economy they were still intellectually inferior to the Soviet machine.

[HousesOfApollo]

This is true and I think technology has a lot to do with it. Before, people had to handle a lot more information at once when carrying out various tasks but now everything can be stored on a hard drive. In our current context, it is more important that a person can get information at the click of a button then memorizing the data. As a result, people are becoming very dependent on these devices. But one could imagine a war wherein the infrastructure of a country gets bombed to smithereens and people are hopeless without their computers and servers. So first, because people aren't forced to learn things sufficiently people have a superficial understanding in many areas. Also, because there is so much garbage online people are spoon-fed rediculous information. FOr example, the idea that red wine is good for your heart...this is an example of a rediculous pop idea that people use as a pretext to tell themselves its ok to drink and buy more wine. But it isn't good intelligence, the experiments surveyed people who drink wine who tend to have a higher level of socioeconomic status. Survey a bunch of homeless people and see if red wine increases their life expectancy and you'll see much different results. The problem I'm getting at is that with so much information going around people cherry pick intelligence and this, again, is a superficial understanding of things.

The other problem is that in a capitalist system rank is mistaken for intelligence. Huge sums of wealth are put into marketing rediculous products that people don't need meanwhile 1/3 of the world is living in extreme poverty. We now have the pills to cure polio and people all over the world are dying of polio while I'm getting emails for viagara. People are increasingly becoming commodified and the worth of what they have to say is correlated with how much they make. The working class absorb the values of the capitalist class but these values only keep them working and hungry for the bourgeois dream. Accordingly, the interest of the working class and capitalist class are NOT one and the same. But when the working class absorbs capitalist values the system recreates itself and keeps the wealthy in power. In short, capitalism produces a consummer culture and a consummer culture is more concerned with consumption than intelligence.

This was evident half a century ago when proud American capitalists were embarassed when the first artificial satellite (Sputnik) was launched by communists. They realized that even with a robust market economy they were still intellectually inferior to the Soviet machine.

Oh yea, and what about all the boo-hooing about obesity? Like it's so tragic to have too much food. Give me a break, dammit. We could feed every starving human being on this planet if we could somehow extract nutrition from the fatty tissue of America. Soylent Green-like fantasy. You know how we get skinnier when we starve? Why couldn't it be that we could get skinnier when others starve? We could even sell our fat to buy useless cosmetics and status symbol objects. If mass liposuction solves a problem, I'm all for it. But that's just one of my wackier ideas. I'm very wacky off-the-cuff. Yea, that wouldn't work.]

America reminds me of those 800 pound people who lay around in bed all day, unable to move; the consumer (not exactly capitalist) system reminds me of the enablers who feed these people. It absolutely infuriates me to see such crap on television. Nobody has any backbone in these cases, either. The suggestion we're given is that we're only supposed to feel sorry for the morbidly obese people, and that no blame shall be dealt upon anyone else; such thinking is analogous to all the problems inherent in our consumerist model. Our over-consumption is analogous to the obese people, and our corporate system are their more-than-eager enablers. We're more likely to just feel pity about someone's suffering than to objectively try to track back to the cause of their disease. [Not that I'm letting obese people off-the-hook; I just think that if someone is eating themselves to death, feeding them whatever they want is akin to some twisted, sick form of assisted suicide. Such a perversion would never occur in any house I live in.]

Problems such as addiction to shopping, depression, objectification of people (men and women; I see male models as being just as objectified), disconnect from reality, and consequently a deeper infatuation with hyper-reality; the last trend can easily be observed by investigating the Second Life phenomenon.

Once in that hyper-real world, the consumerist model becomes disgustingly pure: making a profit with a product by manipulating people on a base, instinctual level so that they'll pay for status in a virtual world. Whole swaths of real estate are now being bought and sold where no actual land exists. You can log onto this service and spend thousands of dollars and never actually get anything except set value signs in a consumerist video game. Nothing that happens there has any real bearing; nothing is created or done. I'm not even rabidly anti-capitalist; I just prefer actual goods and services. Consumer-Capitalism wouldn't be so horribly offensive to me if it were people buying actual things for actual reasons; however, if Second Life is any indication of where this system is going to end up eventually, I'd rather dump it and concoct some new way of doing things.

One could argue that people are, in fact, paying a lot of attention, and are actually quite active; however, none of the things they are paying attention to actually matter. They don't seem to be too much involved with this life because they're entirely immersed within their Second Life, the consumerist hyper-reality of currency and status. Whenever I'm a good mood, I tend to hold this view of mankind. When I'm a horrible mood, I start to think about reflex machines.

Then I seek balance, and I post on this forum.

[pavman]

This was evident half a century ago when proud American capitalists were embarassed when the first artificial satellite (Sputnik) was launched by communists. They realized that even with a robust market economy they were still intellectually inferior to the Soviet machine.

Oh no, not another socialist thread! RUN!!!

I do think that people are becoming more shallow, terse, hasty, and ignorant all thanks to the internet. We know so much more and have access to so much more, but wisdom seems to be a hard commodity to find these days.

The upside is, it makes me look like a superstar :thumbsup:

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I agree. As much as mediocrity may make it easier to succeed, it does not help me survive. I'd much rather a world full of worthy opponents; a world to challenge us and further our own evolution as a species--and as individuals. INTJ's are better when they're challenged; that's based upon the assumption that I'm INTJ. I know for a fact that my mind races at twice normal speed when I'm trying to overcome something. :idea:.



I've been miserable for a very long time; ever since I was able to speak. From the very moment I uttered words, I was considered unbelievably belligerent and "stupid." Teachers usually hated me so much that they sabotaged my education; therefore, I struggled to fit in. My own childhood patterns of behavior are very, very much the INTJ profile; if, of course, you allow for a great deal of emotional problems.

I just wanted to world to make sense, and the sort of things that people put me through absolutely did not make sense. Even my parents had to argue me into doing things.

After years of psychological torment and medications, I have built up a lot of deep resistance to my own innermost tendencies, as they used to cause me a great deal of suffering at the hands of others. For example, I really like it here, and I enjoy doing the "INTJ thing"; but I do get quite scared of being punished, even though I'm far removed from the world of my childhood.



Yea! The sugar-coating is something I absolutely can't stand. Why would two people who know the same horrible truth choose to not talk about in a frank and earnest manner? It's as if the mere mentioning of something uncomfortable will cause it to happen. Like if someone says "If it keeps on raining, the levee is going to break," the levee actually will break, when such a statement is just a rational conclusion. But when I choose to project forward like this, I'm told to just keep my mouth shut.

Even though I know for certain that the levee is going to break, and that we had better run for Chicago. I've seen it all through intuition and observance of the facts. [Half of my thinking processes are just variations of Led Zeppelin lyrics.]
I think it's less about worrying that it's going to happen and more about not wanting to face the facts and deal with them. Out of sight...........

[nyshygirl71]

I read a great Washinton Post article about the dumbing down of America recently. The core concept was that popular culture is pushing intellectual efforts out of the way to make room for "Joe Sixpack's" zone of interest and comfort. Joe is a big spender, after all. I'll see if I can find it and post the link for those interested in reading it.





Moriarty added to this post, 5 minutes and 0 seconds later...

Here you go:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A quick snippet:
"Dumbness, to paraphrase the late senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, has been steadily defined downward for several decades, by a combination of heretofore irresistible forces. These include the triumph of video culture over print culture (and by video, I mean every form of digital media, as well as older electronic ones); a disjunction between Americans' rising level of formal education and their shaky grasp of basic geography, science and history; and the fusion of anti-rationalism with anti-intellectualism."

A scathing, good read.

"Dumbing down" is exactly what I think of when I see the way people behave nowadays. However, I can't help but feel that it is a necessary evil for people to maintain their sanity with everything that is going on in the world right now. If people are busy thinking about themselves they can't be worried about the situation in Iraq, the state of the economy or any number of other serious issues that are present. Also (I think others mentioned this too) for the most part technology has made it so easy for us not to think. There is so much empty garbage on t.v., radio, internet to keep us preoccupied so that for the most part we wouldn't have the time to sit down and just think.

[Iveyrockstar]

I've been miserable for a very long time; ever since I was able to speak. From the very moment I uttered words, I was considered unbelievably belligerent and "stupid." Teachers usually hated me so much that they sabotaged my education; therefore, I struggled to fit in. My own childhood patterns of behavior are very, very much the INTJ profile; if, of course, you allow for a great deal of emotional problems.

I just wanted to world to make sense, and the sort of things that people put me through absolutely did not make sense. Even my parents had to argue me into doing things.

After years of psychological torment and medications, I have built up a lot of deep resistance to my own innermost tendencies, as they used to cause me a great deal of suffering at the hands of others. For example, I really like it here, and I enjoy doing the "INTJ thing"; but I do get quite scared of being punished, even though I'm far removed from the world of my childhood.]

I know exactly how you feel. It's not something I talk about much, but I grew up not being able to pay attention in school. I have blonde hair and blue eyes and fair skin, so I really stood out from the rest of the class. If my ADHD was not enough of a problem, I had my own unique view of the world which caused me to analyze the way that the kids who were accepted acted, and I mimicked what they were doing. The result is that I perpetuated the pattern of ridicule which came from the same group of kids (with the exception of a few) that I would attend school with from Kindergarten until the eighth grade. From about 3rd grade all the way up through high school, I made bad grades. A result of my bad grades was that I couldnt please my parents (who do love me) while my older twin brothers were making A's and could do no wrong. I would come home each semester and have that conversation with Dad where he would tell me that I was just lazy and didnt try hard enough in school. It was obvious to him that I wasnt stupid, so rather than helping me with the actual issue, he just chalked it up to "laziness" and gave up on me there. I would tell him that "this time I'm really gonna try" and "I'm going to fix it... I'm going to work harder than ever". I was nothing but a failure until I first got to high school and began to develop my musical talents. Ultimately I graduated high school with a cumulative 1.3 GPA (yes, it is possible to graduate with a 1.3), 234 of 236 in my graduating class. I weighed about 225 pounds at 6'1 and within the first 3 years of graduation, I got up to 265. I have worked every dead end job known to man (that's another story) and had been the fat kid since I was in grade school, so, needless to say, I was depressed at this point. With no prospects of college and no chance of bettering myself, I lived life, frustrated, angry at God, and depressed beyond what most people would consider stable. By 22 years old, I was an overweight alcoholic who was too introverted to speak to others at parties, quite susceptible to ridicule from some, and from others, I would just want to start a fight if they talked about me. Then, a friend of mine told me that I was very very very ADHD and that I should go see this counselor she went and saw so I could get a script of ADDERALL... Say this with me: "ADDERALL, ADDERALL, ADDERALL"... I emphasize this because from the moment I first started taking Adderall, I can see a marked change in my success, my confidence, my awareness of how my mind works, and in my general ability to lead a productive life in a society of imbeciles. Let me tell you how things are now:


1. Went to 2 semesters of community college for the heck of it and to prove to myself that I was not "stupid". Result: 3.8 GPA with half-a$$ effort. Invitation to join academic fraternity on campus, deans list, invitation to work for the school in their tutoring program. Showed the grades to my dad and he said, "Maybe next time you'll get all A's..." At that point, I was thinking, I'm the freakin man. Screw him. I was over it like that.

2. Lost 65 pounds and can wear jeans in sizes that I never had the chance to wear (passed them up) when I "blew Up". I pretty much skipped "32" and "36" and went "34-38-40" and at 40'' I was ready to kill myself. I currently wear a 34 (size I wore in 5th grade) weigh 195 pounds, and am more lean now than I can ever remember being.

3. I fell in love and married a beautiful woman and we now have a beautiful daughter together.

4. I started working office jobs instead of manual labor jobs and I can honestly say that I am always the best at what I do by the time I leave a job for another better one. This has resulted in my success working for 2 different major national banks and currently, I'm working for my father's company (he is a Nuclear contractor) making good money.

5. I can sleep at night, knowing how my mind works and why I feel the way I do or think the things I think. I dont let the world get inside my head for too long before dismissing it and sending it home. I HAVE PEACE most of the time... That's something rare to find in any personality type.

I attribute my improvement in life to two things:

1. God, for having sent the person who told me I was ADHD into my life.
2. Adderall for making my brain work as it should and helping me to achieve my potential instead of being limited by listening to other's pointing out my shortcomings.

These days, when I walk into a room filled with people, I don't consider myself inferior. I consider myself far above and beyond them intellectually and personally. These days, I bow the knee to no man. They are just plain, ordinary people who dont have the capability to even imagine what life inside my mind would be like for a single day, let alone find a way to make productive use of it. But I have....

Dont give up, and dont let anyone else, or even society tell you that you can not reach your full potential. I know you dont see it now, but you can. Send me a PM if you want to know how I did it and I'll help you out.
It wasnt just dumb luck after taking Adderall, I did have to work for it, but I'm one of the most able-minded people you will meet in your life in terms of structuring thoughts, organizing them in a way that I can remember, and detailing the most efficient process for nearly any area of interest, activity, industry, business, social system, or scientific method. I'm probably a little more "INTJ" than most "INTJ's" because I spent so much of my life being a failure. I have not slowed down since I first began to realize my potential. You need to get to that point, because as soon as you do, life will get easier and easier in so many ways. I still struggle when I consider the life that I currently live because I cant fix things that I want to fix, but I can honestly say that while I do (as I believe all INTJ's do) become immersed in negative thoughts and ultimately have a sense of the darkness that's out there, I have ways to keep myself from staying on that dark path. Just wanted to go beyond the forum topic and say something that someone might find meaningful... Yeah, yeah, yeah... I know it's freakin' long.