Romancing the stone (AKA INTJ)

[INTroJect]

I decided to open a new subject on this after seeing a string and comming to a curiosity as to how this whole thing migh work for other INTJs. God forbid an INTJ actually going through the effort to pursue someone but how about: has anyone broken through your INTJ wall?

What worked to get past your wall so that you felt comfortable with the whole situation? Ever tell someone "I love you" and mean it without haveing to work yourself up for it ahead of time and force the 'message transmission'?

[Evalind]

I knew my husband was a keeper when, on our first date, we both ordered some of the messiest items on the menu because that's what we wanted to eat. Neither of us cared if we looked like dorks covered in shredded lettuce or pizza sauce. :)

[dayguard]

Do share... it's one of the reasons that I am here.

[mind_wander]

Nope, ever said "i love you and mean it". Does I like/love you, as a person counts?

[Garth]

This one is interesting.

has anyone broken through your INTJ wall?

Yes. *It leaves a wound that never fully heals back the way it once was. *Its got its negatives, but on the whole, I would have to say it is a net positive.

God forbid an INTJ actually going through the effort to pursue someone

I do now, but at one time I didn’t. *Growth is good. *Although, I must add, I was probably on the whole a better person then than I am now.

What worked to get past your wall so that you felt comfortable with the whole situation?

A limited number of people, I am guessing NFs, can make the wall so totally and completely irrelevant that there is no point to maintaining it. *She didn’t even seem to notice the wall. *She just walked right through it. *

I never felt comfortable with the situation.

Ever tell someone "I love you" and mean it without haveing to work yourself up for it ahead of time and force the 'message transmission'?

No.

[rwyatt365]

I decided to open a new subject on this after seeing a string and comming to a curiosity as to how this whole thing migh work for other INTJs. God forbid an INTJ actually going through the effort to pursue someone but how about: has anyone broken through your INTJ wall?

What worked to get past your wall so that you felt comfortable with the whole situation? Ever tell someone "I love you" and mean it without haveing to work yourself up for it ahead of time and force the 'message transmission'?
Has anyone broken through your INTJ wall?
After 53 years I can honestly say that no one has ever broken through every wall. As an INTJ I have "layers" of defense and no one has broken through all of them to get to the core of "me". A couple have come close, but there was always another barrier that I wouldn't let them through.

What worked to get past your wall(s) so that you felt comfortable with the whole situation?
If someone will;
…take me for what I am, don’t try to "shape me in your own image", then you've gotten through that wall.
…listen to what I say, don’t criticize and don't correct, ditto.
…tolerate my "strange ideas", don't look at me crazy when I say something out of the ordinary.
…give me space when I don't want to be around people, it isn't personal.
…know the difference between adoration and smothering.
…listen to my whole playlist without a frown on their face.
…tell me I'm the best they've ever had! (Oops, wrong list)
…worship the ground I walk on (the last wall! ;) )

Then they'd get through all of my defenses.

Ever tell someone "I love you" and mean it without haveing to work yourself up for it ahead of time and force the 'message transmission'?
3-times (two of the girls, I married – no, not at the same time!!); once when I was young and didn't know any better, once when I was older and thought it was necessary to do that in order to be married, and once when I should have known better but was desperate. Each time my definition of "love" didn't correspond to their definition of "love".

[mind_wander]

I guess, the ones really break the wall is NF's and SF's, darn it. Like someone said, "that wall melted down like butter."

[phoenix]

I decided to open a new subject on this after seeing a string and comming to a curiosity as to how this whole thing migh work for other INTJs. God forbid an INTJ actually going through the effort to pursue someone but how about: has anyone broken through your INTJ wall?

Actually, I was the one who broke through my own wall. What did it was being in love with someone who had their own wall. And that wall was higher and thicker than mine. So in order to help her break through, I decided to lead by example. The process was very slow and very painful. But it resulted in her being able to (re)connect with me, her daughters, and finally herself.

It is amazing what I learned when I finally allowed myself to stop ignoring that part of me that I kept shoving to the back. I stopped ignoring the pain I felt from rejection. I forced myself to face the hurt I had felt from my overly-judgmental parents. I allowed myself to admit that I needed to learn to parent...that it wasn't something I could "just do."

We worked through my hidden parts, and in the process we discovered her hidden parts. Now she knows more about me than I ever thought I would allow someone to know. We literally have NO hidden places. It was taking a huge risk, because everyone has skeletons. But she's worth it.


What worked to get past your wall so that you felt comfortable with the whole situation?

Ahhhh....well it turns out that one of those skeletons was the key to unlocking those doors I had closed. And while I have no problems exposing my secrets to her, this is a little too public to air that little item.

[Rohsiph]

. . . has anyone broken through your INTJ wall?

Yes, twice . . .

the first ran away, and the second got engaged before I figured out my feelings. I try and distance myself from any hopes in this domain (having noticed in myself a tendency toward extreme limerance)--

generally, to little (if any) avail, such that I can't decide right now whether to walk away from the second, or to give her the call I was supposed to this weekend :-/

[dayguard]

I guess, the ones really break the wall is NF's and SF's, darn it. Like someone said, "that wall melted down like butter."
Should I take a risk? I just might ;D

[mind_wander]

You should take it? Its not all that bad, as being friends and all. They opened up more, than yeah as an INTJ so hard to resist. Dang it, then you started to opened up toward that person. Since, they opened up first, why should not you? Unless, its trickery, then INTJ defense mechanism is turned on.

[iwin]

. . . has anyone broken through your INTJ wall? *

Yes, twice . . .

the first ran away, and the second got engaged before I figured out my feelings. I try and distance myself from any hopes in this domain (having noticed in myself a tendency toward extreme limerance)--

generally, to little (if any) avail, such that I can't decide right now whether to walk away from the second, or to give her the call I was supposed to this weekend *:-/

If you're an INTJ, I think you should walk away. If you have some doubts, I suppose it's not worth it. We are pretty decisive when those things really do matter.

[Solaris]

. . . has anyone broken through your INTJ wall? *

Yes, twice . . .

the first ran away, and the second got engaged before I figured out my feelings. I try and distance myself from any hopes in this domain (having noticed in myself a tendency toward extreme limerance)--

generally, to little (if any) avail, such that I can't decide right now whether to walk away from the second, or to give her the call I was supposed to this weekend *:-/

If you're an INTJ, I think you should walk away. If you have some doubts, I suppose it's not worth it. We are pretty decisive when those things really do matter.

I disagree. I see much self-doubt and fear that hold INTJ's back from approaching those they admire. Nothing risked, nothing gained. Of course, I could throw this argument right back at myself.

[deicruxified]

has anyone broken through your INTJ wall?
gate yes... wall i don't think so. after 2 guys messed my whole life, i already have the swat and k9 teams ;D which makes me 360 degrees colder than i was before.

Ever tell someone "I love you" and mean it without haveing to work yourself up for it ahead of time and force the 'message transmission'?
no... i never did although i had a bf. it's just like this: isn't it already enough that i committed myself to him? why reiterate?

... which reminds me of a goo goo dolls song that i can relate to... and i think this song describes well an intj imfo... the song iris is kinda intj-ish as well. i do think most j.rzeznik songs are dedicated to all intj's lol

SYMPATHY
goo goo dolls

Stranger than your sympathy
And this is my apology
I killed myself from the inside out
And all my fears have pushed you out

And I wished for things that I don’t need
(all I wanted)
And what I chased won’t set me free
(all I wanted)
And I get scared but I’m not crawlin’ on my knees

Oh, yeah
Everything’s all wrong, yeah
Everything’s all wrong, yeah
Where the hell did I think I was?

And stranger than your sympathy
Take these things, so I don’t feel
I’m killing myself from the inside out
And now my head’s been filled with doubt

We’re taught to lead the life you choose
(all I wanted)
You know your love’s run out on you
(all I wanted)
And you can’t see when all your dreams aren’t coming true

Oh, yeah
It’s easy to forget, yeah
When you choke on the regrets, yeah
Who the hell did I think I was?

And stranger than your sympathy
And all these thoughts you stole from me
And I’m not sure where I belong
And no where’s home and no more wrong

And I was in love with things I tried to make you believe I was
And I wouldn’t be the one to kneel before the dreams I wanted
And all the dark and all the lies were all the empty things disguised as me

Mmm, yeah
Stranger than your sympathy
Stranger than your sympathy

[iwin]

. . . has anyone broken through your INTJ wall? *

Yes, twice . . .

the first ran away, and the second got engaged before I figured out my feelings. I try and distance myself from any hopes in this domain (having noticed in myself a tendency toward extreme limerance)--

generally, to little (if any) avail, such that I can't decide right now whether to walk away from the second, or to give her the call I was supposed to this weekend *:-/

If you're an INTJ, I think you should walk away. If you have some doubts, I suppose it's not worth it. We are pretty decisive when those things really do matter.

I disagree. I see much self-doubt and fear that hold INTJ's back from approaching those they admire. Nothing risked, nothing gained. Of course, I could throw this argument right back at myself.


Are you (as an INTJ) really capable of admiring ANYone? *:o
I do envy you right now. Oops, you are not an INTJ.
I would categorize 'admiration' as a feeling, and I don't usually feel feelings, esp. of this higher-upper level like an admiration.
As for self-doubt, I don't know. Might be, but not likely. I know exactly what I want, what I know, and what I don't want, and what I don't know. There's not that much space left for a self-doubt moments, if you know what I mean. Fear? Do you think I fear anything, if I am ready to go against the whole world, just to play with the authority and conventionalism? Well, I might fear rational things like death, or losing job and money...

[logan235711]

Actually, I was the one who broke through my own wall. What did it was being in love with someone who had their own wall. And that wall was higher and thicker than mine. So in order to help her break through, I decided to lead by example. The process was very slow and very painful. But it resulted in her being able to (re)connect with me, her daughters, and finally herself.
yes this is one of the toughest things one can do. so many relationships and just people in general would do better if they could do this--but I'd have to say almost no one can. the road is very long and it is easy to think you are still following but have actually fallen.

in any case. i haven't ever known anyone well enough to share everything with them, so I'd say no. also I've never said 'I love you' or something similar to someone cause I haven't ever found someone who I felt that way about.

[rwyatt365]

I disagree. I see much self-doubt and fear that hold INTJ's back from approaching those they admire. Nothing risked, nothing gained. Of course, I could throw this argument right back at myself.

I disagree as well, but for different a reason.

I don’t think that INTJs have self-doubt (at least not myself) so much as we doubt that others will be able to accept and relate to us. We look in the mirror and say, "I know I'm different, can she/he understand that difference?". It's that sticking point where the indecision sets in – and that's where others think that we doubt ourselves. An INTJ is supremely confident in what we can and cannot do. It's only when we are confronted with having to evaluate others that we waver ('cause you other folks are so damned illogical!!).

So, go ahead; make the call (if it's not already too late).

[mind_wander]

has anyone broken through your INTJ wall?
gate yes... wall i don't think so. after 2 guys messed my whole life, i already have the swat and k9 teams ;D which makes me 360 degrees colder than i was before.

Ever tell someone "I love you" and mean it without haveing to work yourself up for it ahead of time and force the 'message transmission'?
no... i never did although i had a bf. it's just like this: isn't it already enough that i committed myself to him? why reiterate?

... which reminds me of a goo goo dolls song that i can relate to... and i think this song describes well an intj imfo... the song iris is kinda intj-ish as well. i do think most j.rzeznik songs are dedicated to all intj's lol

SYMPATHY
goo goo dolls

Stranger than your sympathy
And this is my apology
I killed myself from the inside out
And all my fears have pushed you out

And I wished for things that I don’t need
(all I wanted)
And what I chased won’t set me free
(all I wanted)
And I get scared but I’m not crawlin’ on my knees

Oh, yeah
Everything’s all wrong, yeah
Everything’s all wrong, yeah
Where the hell did I think I was?

And stranger than your sympathy
Take these things, so I don’t feel
I’m killing myself from the inside out
And now my head’s been filled with doubt

We’re taught to lead the life you choose
(all I wanted)
You know your love’s run out on you
(all I wanted)
And you can’t see when all your dreams aren’t coming true

Oh, yeah
It’s easy to forget, yeah
When you choke on the regrets, yeah
Who the hell did I think I was?

And stranger than your sympathy
And all these thoughts you stole from me
And I’m not sure where I belong
And no where’s home and no more wrong

And I was in love with things I tried to make you believe I was
And I wouldn’t be the one to kneel before the dreams I wanted
And all the dark and all the lies were all the empty things disguised as me

Mmm, yeah
Stranger than your sympathy
Stranger than your sympathy

Here is another song, I think is INTJness because I kinda understand what it *means.

2PAC LYRICS

"One Day At A Time"
(feat. Eminem, Outlawz)

[2pac]
Sometimes its hard to wake up in the morning
Mind full of demons, I don't wanna hear them anymore
Got me heartbroken,fine, so many babies screaming
Cause they seeing destruction before they a see human being
So they start smoking weed, we'll never get our day
Until we learn to pray, keep our families in shape
Cause they all broke. and why do ghetto birds die
Before we learn to fly, some bodies else's child caught in guns
Smoking weed, can all make a change
So I'm told, but I haven't seen the change unfold,
I keep hoping please, if you prefer to breathe,
Communities in need of people that will lead
Keep your eyes open, I can only say I'll try
Until the day I die, I promise to be wise
With my heart open, greed, brings only misery
A way to tragedy, so I stay sucker free
Only a few chosen, rise (rise)
My ghetto queen, rise (rise)
Don't be afraid to try (try)
Too many of us died to the door to open wide
My brother be wise, stay focused on the prize
Though everybody dies
We can...

[Eminem]
Only learn to take, our anger and our hate
Control our mental state, settle down, and just set it straight
Maybe we can learn to take a second to pump the brakes
For we said it, regret it later, and let it escalate
Cause by then its too just late, theres so much we can take
Theres only so much someone can swallow and tolerate
To the point that he just breaks, snaps and thats all it takes
You'd think that we was learning from other rappers mistakes
But we aint
Its plain to go against, with every artists, comes the image he portrays
And a picture that he paints
But in the midst of all this anger and this angst
Never once did you hear me say I'm a gangster and I aint hear no complaints
But I know, that I will always continue to grow,
As long as I lead and never follow no one else's shadow
There will never be another me
And that I can guarantee
Thats why the f*** I remain sucker free to this day
The game will never be the same
No matter how much fame or success they attain
There will never be another me
And no matter what they do
There will never be another you
You can search but you'll never find
You can try to rewind time
But in your hearts and your minds
We will never die
We are forever alive
And we continue growing....

[2pac]
One day at a time

Don't be caught in the publicity and caught in the hype
Rappers are regular people minus money and light
Searching for fortune and fame, and super stardom
All the jewelry, all the cars, whose crew is the hardest.
Now the hip-hop police, the villains is watching
And kids think beef is the only option
Outlaws born filthy, guilty as charged
My memories of Khaddafi, but Makaveli lives on
You think the industry is fun
And no pity with guns
And when your money is up
Thats when your enemies come
So if he died and came back
Would he try to save rap?
We needing a change, the drama remains

I spent my whole life, fighting myself
That I cant win so I'm inviting some help
and every now and then I take rights from left
Im still just like a kid, looking for stripes on my belt
And that there is a fight in itself
So I just pray and hope god
Take a like to myself
No matter how much I try (stay alive)
I'm gunna die mad, still standing there in love with my pride

Heard frivolous beats, we past that
I'm trying to keep some income coming in
And collect on my ass cap
The rappers in the game aint changed
And I finally realized that we not in the same game
The hating will never end, so I guess I'll deal wit it
Them 4-5 with cop killers, just some steel wit it
The streets is military, you gotta be a soldier
Gotta stay leery and keep your eyes on the rollers
As they do what they gotta do to shackle and hold us
So we gotta do what we gotta do to keep rolling
One way at a time, keep the faith in your mind
and we continue growin...

[2Pac]
...One day at a time. Damn!

[iwin]

I disagree. I see much self-doubt and fear that hold INTJ's back from approaching those they admire. Nothing risked, nothing gained. Of course, I could throw this argument right back at myself.

I disagree as well, but for different a reason.

I don[ch8217]t think that INTJs have self-doubt (at least not myself) so much as we doubt that others will be able to accept and relate to us. We look in the mirror and say, "I know I'm different, can she/he understand that difference?". It's that sticking point where the indecision sets in [ch8211] and that's where others think that we doubt ourselves. An INTJ is supremely confident in what we can and cannot do. It's only when we are confronted with having to evaluate others that we waver ('cause you other folks are so damned illogical!!).

So, go ahead; make the call (if it's not already too late).


Oh my, I am again going to be annoying, but I have to ask: do you really usually care what people think about you? or do they understand you?
I usually like the erroneous assumptions about me, and I usually play along. It's more interesting and SWEET :)

But again I am being dishonest, I don't fully ignore people, because if I did, I wouldn't be here. I'm just trying to test whether this 'concept' is working for me or not.

[thegnat]

I disagree. I see much self-doubt and fear that hold INTJ's back from approaching those they admire. Nothing risked, nothing gained. Of course, I could throw this argument right back at myself.

I disagree as well, but for different a reason.

I don’t think that INTJs have self-doubt (at least not myself) so much as we doubt that others will be able to accept and relate to us. We look in the mirror and say, "I know I'm different, can she/he understand that difference?". It's that sticking point where the indecision sets in – and that's where others think that we doubt ourselves. An INTJ is supremely confident in what we can and cannot do. It's only when we are confronted with having to evaluate others that we waver ('cause you other folks are so damned illogical!!).

So, go ahead; make the call (if it's not already too late).
Damn, I think you just nailed it for me.

As for the topic, I no one's really broken through my wall(s) significantly. I have many. Well reinforced.

[Solaris]

I disagree. I see much self-doubt and fear that hold INTJ's back from approaching those they admire. Nothing risked, nothing gained. Of course, I could throw this argument right back at myself.

I disagree as well, but for different a reason.

I don’t think that INTJs have self-doubt (at least not myself) so much as we doubt that others will be able to accept and relate to us. We look in the mirror and say, "I know I'm different, can she/he understand that difference?". It's that sticking point where the indecision sets in – and that's where others think that we doubt ourselves. An INTJ is supremely confident in what we can and cannot do. It's only when we are confronted with having to evaluate others that we waver ('cause you other folks are so damned illogical!!).

So, go ahead; make the call (if it's not already too late).


Oh my, I am again going to be annoying, but I have to ask: do you really usually care what people think about you? or do they understand you?
I usually like the erroneous assumptions about me, and I usually play along. It's more interesting and SWEET :)

But again I am being dishonest, I don't fully ignore people, because if I did, I wouldn't be here. I'm just trying to test whether this 'concept' is working for me or not.

Ack, sorry. I wasn't really thinking clearly and put self-doubt when that's not what I meant at all. You are completely correct (you should be, you *are* the actual INTJ's here). I did not mean that the INTJ will doubt himself or herself. You tend to spend enough time in your heads that you know exactly what you do and do not know and to what extent. The doubt really comes in whether the other will come close enough to this same level of understanding, or have the drive to at least get a working ability. Therefore, the doubt is really about the other person understanding you, and doubting that it's worth it to take the risk.

The reason I can throw it back at myself is that there are men in my world that I have admired and said nothing to. Other times, I have spoken first. For me, it's about timing and circumstances.

I only care what others think of me once I let them into a certain level of knowing me. Once my loyalty kicks in, I do care what they think, but it certainly doesn't control me. It just means I'm more apt to listen to their advice and criticisms. I would say I'm often curious what others think (both of me and everything else), but I don't actually let it affect me often.

[Rohsiph]

It's an unbalanced personality who is proud of having "no feelings"--likewise, it is an unbalanced personality who is proud of "never thinking too much."

I can't explain how or why, but my Fi has been developing pretty early (according to most of the profiles / personality development theories I've read). Yes, I admire people--such that there actually /is/ self-doubt concerning some of these people. But not with anyone else.

And it's not a need for validation . . . but it's being hyper-sensitive to every interaction with someone I care about, yet still being unable to come up with the *right* answer. I can come up with answers, certainly,--but with the very few people I happen to develop feelings for, I almost always end up being wrong if I jump to a single conclusion. Hence: doubt--self-doubt, even.

If we're throwing around "you aren't <mbti-type>" here, I'll offer: the INTJ generally *does* have a rich world of feelings, having tertiary Fi. Perhaps that's the wrong way to say it . . . maybe not a "rich world," but certainly the Fi leads to *intense* emotions, when emotions actually are felt. It's rare for this to come to the surface, and usually isn't until one's later-twenties, or thirties that an INTJ will begin to really start understanding what to do with the preference (source: personalitypage, I want to say), but it's there, hidden beneath many, many layers of armor (as suggested by the original topic here, actually). The INTP, on the other hand, tends to have more medium feelings--my best friend, I am convinced he's an INTP, has sworn off love & romance altogether. One example is never enough to come to a conclusion, but I think my example may have some relevance here.

Not that I really care what four letters anyone here aligns with oneself . . . but y'all'll drive a lot of the folks who have really developed their understandings of personality theories if things often descend into throwing around "you're not <blah>" and shit. Eh . . . whatever . . .

This reply mostly to suggest that it's generally irresponsible to assign too much weight to four letters.

[rwyatt365]

Oh my, I am again going to be annoying, but I have to ask: do you really usually care what people think about you? or do they understand you?
I usually like the erroneous assumptions about me, and I usually play along. It's more interesting and SWEET :)

But again I am being dishonest, I don't fully ignore people, because if I did, I wouldn't be here. I'm just trying to test whether this 'concept' is working for me or not.
To me there are two classifications of people in the world; those that I care for, and those that I don't. for those in the former category I care very much what the think of me because I want them to be pleased with me. Those in the latter category, I don’t give a rats ass what they think, much less what they think of me. there are very few people in the former category, everyone else is in the latter.

And it's not a need for validation . . . but it's being hyper-sensitive to every interaction with someone I care about, yet still being unable to come up with the *right* answer. I can come up with answers, certainly,--but with the very few people I happen to develop feelings for, I almost always end up being wrong if I jump to a single conclusion. Hence: doubt--self-doubt, even.
…bingo!

[orange]

has anyone broken through your INTJ wall?

kind of. There has been one person that got me down to 1 wall (maybe half a wall). and theres been sevral people that saw through my first few walls as if they didnt exsist. I've learned to accept that some poeple can just get through a few walls and let it go at that.
God forbid an INTJ actually going through the effort to pursue someone

I don't want to but that's what I've resorted to for the moment. We like eachother, but she wont do the pursuing I have to eventually other wise there wont ever be a relationship.

Ever tell someone "I love you" and mean it without haveing to work yourself up for it ahead of time and force the 'message transmission'?

only in writing, once(i think).

[Riley72]

meh.... people have TRIED to get though to me, but eventually, I cut 'em loose, cos they annoy the crap outta me... it used to drive me crazy how people were always saying I have `walls around me`... I don't think I do. Maybe that's why they couldn't get through the wall, because I've met a few people that could. And if I HAVE got a wall, then I'm stuck on the outside with everyone else too... ha ha...
saying that, I've (assuming I do have a wall) broken it down on my own, because one of my... friends... needed me.
does that count? I broke down my own wall because I had to find someway to help my friend... but then I promtly built the wall back up again, once I knew they'd be OK, and didn't need me.
There's only three people I've ever said `I love you to`. My gran, before she died, my mum (every day, because I never know when I'll never see her again) and my little cousin, Nick, cos he's... my life, my heart, my soul- if anything happened to that kid... I dunno what I'd do. I've never said `I love you`, unless I mean it. I laugh when people tell ME they love me... mwahahaha...

[Santana28]

developing a rational philosophy of love that you can apply to daily living has helped me immensely in this department. its all a completely cerebral process to me, but that in itself is emotionally fulfilling. Word of warning ... seems to only work with fellow NT types ;) I or E, J or P flexible. hehe.

[Rick]

In general, extroverted and feeling types drive me up the wall. They're interesting to observe, at times, but that's all. I'm an extreme introvert, and that is too alien to the extroverts. I can't count the number of times that I've been asked, "What's wrong?", when all I was doing was retreating into my own head and humming right along.

I saw a bit of discussion earlier about walls, and I'd like to add something to it that might also be true of other INTJ's. I have many layers of walls and realize that there are probably even walls that I'm unaware of.

[cielo market]

... which reminds me of a goo goo dolls song that i can relate to... and i think this song describes well an intj imfo... the song iris is kinda intj-ish as well. i do think most j.rzeznik songs are dedicated to all intj's lol

*agrees with dei*
that's gotta be, like, the 7th time the goo goo dolls were mentioned on this forum :D

[Paul V]

I decided to open a new subject on this after seeing a string and comming to a curiosity as to how this whole thing migh work for other INTJs. God forbid an INTJ actually going through the effort to pursue someone but how about: has anyone broken through your INTJ wall?

What worked to get past your wall so that you felt comfortable with the whole situation? Ever tell someone "I love you" and mean it without haveing to work yourself up for it ahead of time and force the 'message transmission'?

No. Never. I shut them out before they even realise there's a wall. And I'll probably keep on doing that, even to someone I'm completely in love with.

And no. Every "I love you" I said felt awful and awkward (even though I've only told my parents and closest family members), even if I truly felt it.

[BlackHawk]

Every INTJ, by definition, has walls. Every INTJ also doesn't know the extent of his/her walls. Even though we know what we do and do not know in most areas, our self is not one of them. We INTJs don't know everything about our selves!

[The Many]

We INTJs don't know everything about our selves!

I may add an "as of yet". The attraction of this forum is that we can finally start to learn things about ourselves, and - in true INTJ fashion - apply that knowledge to ourselves and the world around us.

[BlackHawk]

This is true.
Well said!

[logos]

I don't fully understand the "wall" concept. I've been accused of it (being surrounded by walls) but the metaphor doesn't feel as if it entirely fits. If I had to paint this metaphor to more fit me, I would say I am inside of a rather intimidating-looking castle, but I keep all of the doors unlocked. It keeps most people away just from glancing, but any genuine person who is inquisitive enough to come knocking will find the knock alone is enough to move the door ajar. We can sit at the hearth and discuss any ideas and I'll enjoy it. I'm not sure exactly where it comes from but I have no embarassment when it comes to discussing anything at all in my current/past personal/emotional experiences. Of course, the discussions remain quite rational. I think it comes from the mindset that while personalities may be different, we are all really the same. In understanding myself, I feel like I understand everyone else.

Perhaps I am still surrounded by these "walls". I envision the walls as something constructed to protect a soft underbelly, but I do not see that I have one to protect. I feel quite impermeable 100% of the time. Maybe some more time dedicated to intuitive divining will reveal more about this concept to me.

[Solaris]

I don't fully understand the "wall" concept. I've been accused of it (being surrounded by walls) but the metaphor doesn't feel as if it entirely fits. If I had to paint this metaphor to more fit me, I would say I am inside of a rather intimidating-looking castle, but I keep all of the doors unlocked. It keeps most people away just from glancing, but any genuine person who is inquisitive enough to come knocking will find the knock alone is enough to move the door ajar. We can sit at the hearth and discuss any ideas and I'll enjoy it. I'm not sure exactly where it comes from but I have no embarassment when it comes to discussing anything at all in my current/past personal/emotional experiences. Of course, the discussions remain quite rational. I think it comes from the mindset that while personalities may be different, we are all really the same. In understanding myself, I feel like I understand everyone else.

Perhaps I am still surrounded by these "walls". I envision the walls as something constructed to protect a soft underbelly, but I do not see that I have one to protect. I feel quite impermeable 100% of the time. Maybe some more time dedicated to intuitive divining will reveal more about this concept to me.


That's interesting. I have a similar vision of myself in my mind. I am the castle in the center of many circular walls. Each wall has a gate. While my outer gates are locked, and require me to give you the key, after a while, all the gates are unlocked...you just have to find the door in the maze. I know my walls are there for self-protection. I will however discuss all kinds of things with people...to a point...like each gate gives new topics of discussion or something. ....I feel like I'm a Zelda game all of a sudden..

[rwyatt365]

That's interesting. I have a similar vision of myself in my mind. I am the castle in the center of many circular walls. Each wall has a gate. While my outer gates are locked, and require me to give you the key, after a while, all the gates are unlocked...you just have to find the door in the maze. I know my walls are there for self-protection. I will however discuss all kinds of things with people...to a point...like each gate gives new topics of discussion or something. ....I feel like I'm a Zelda game all of a sudden..
I have a somewhat different self-image; while I see a similar set of concentric walls, all of mine are locked. The outer ones have (designed-in) flimsy mechanisms that can be easily over-ridden. As one progresses inwards, the lock mechanisms become progressively harder to overcome, and the keys progressively more difficult to obtain.

One interesting feature within each "courtyard" is that there is a secret "treasure" that is hidden away. As one progresses through the gates, the treasures become more and more valuable (and can often ease transit through the succeeding gate). These treasures are things that I tell no one – voluntarily.

So, a person could blast through every wall using brute force and end up having missed the very best parts of me because they ignored looking for the buried treasures along the way.

[Santana28]

INTJs are the bunker, and ENTJs are the tank!

At least, i think thats what someone wrote in another thread

[blueback]

I am inside of a rather intimidating-looking castle, but I keep all of the doors unlocked. It keeps most people away just from glancing, but any genuine person who is inquisitive enough to come knocking will find the knock alone is enough to move the door ajar. .

I think I know what you mean. I think that I have something like this surrounding me, sort of like the checkin lines at airports. Everyone has to wait in that long twisty line to get to me, except for a few people who can breeze right through.

It's like there are a few people in the world who see the shortcuts I have left in my defenses and go straight for them, and by doing so they prove their right to get past the wall. I think it's kind of like a subconcious test I've set up. Very few people pass, but the ones that do are special.

[logos]

I think I know what you mean. I think that I have something like this surrounding me, sort of like the checkin lines at airports. Everyone has to wait in that long twisty line to get to me, except for a few people who can breeze right through.

It's like there are a few people in the world who see the shortcuts I have left in my defenses and go straight for them, and by doing so they prove their right to get past the wall. I think it's kind of like a subconcious test I've set up. Very few people pass, but the ones that do are special.

Yes, definitely. My personal subconscious test only requires people to be simply direct and honest, hence why I say the gate is essentially unlocked. To communicate with me, even with my inner-most self, you simply need to say what it is you wish. I so greatly value direct communication that I will bend over backwards to validate/reward such efforts.

That's interesting. I have a similar vision of myself in my mind. I am the castle in the center of many circular walls. Each wall has a gate. While my outer gates are locked, and require me to give you the key, after a while, all the gates are unlocked...you just have to find the door in the maze. I know my walls are there for self-protection. I will however discuss all kinds of things with people...to a point...like each gate gives new topics of discussion or something. ....I feel like I'm a Zelda game all of a sudden..

I am a fan of Zelda games. :P

[mind_wander]

That's interesting. I have a similar vision of myself in my mind. I am the castle in the center of many circular walls. Each wall has a gate. While my outer gates are locked, and require me to give you the key, after a while, all the gates are unlocked...you just have to find the door in the maze. I know my walls are there for self-protection. I will however discuss all kinds of things with people...to a point...like each gate gives new topics of discussion or something. ....I feel like I'm a Zelda game all of a sudden..

Lol, How to find the many correct doors, before entering the wrong trapped doors? Nice one.

[The Rose]

I decided to open a new subject on this after seeing a string and coming to a curiosity as to how this whole thing might work for other INTJs. God forbid an INTJ actually going through the effort to pursue someone but how about: has anyone broken through your INTJ wall?

What worked to get past your wall so that you felt comfortable with the whole situation? Ever tell someone "I love you" and mean it without having to work yourself up for it ahead of time and force the 'message transmission'?Yes. Hang in there. Just keep waiting for the right one.

My ISTP husband and I just celebrated our 25th anniversary.
I found him when I decided to stop lowering my standards, and wait for what I wanted.
I was in love after our first dance together.
In the first week we exchanged rings.
I was introducing him to everyone as "the man of my dreams".

Dr. James Dobson says,
"Don't marry the one you think you can live with;
marry the one you know you can't live without."

The Rose added 13 Minutes and 25 Seconds later...

I don't fully understand the "wall" concept. I've been accused of it (being surrounded by walls) but the metaphor doesn't feel as if it entirely fits. If I had to paint this metaphor to more fit me, I would say I am inside of a rather intimidating-looking castle, but I keep all of the doors unlocked. It keeps most people away just from glancing, but any genuine person who is inquisitive enough to come knocking will find the knock alone is enough to move the door ajar. We can sit at the hearth and discuss any ideas and I'll enjoy it. I'm not sure exactly where it comes from but I have no embarassment when it comes to discussing anything at all in my current/past personal/emotional experiences. Of course, the discussions remain quite rational. I think it comes from the mindset that while personalities may be different, we are all really the same. In understanding myself, I feel like I understand everyone else....I am like this too. I am more than willing to bare any part of my soul if it will help someone else.

I have worked some on making myself more "approachable".
I smile at folks when I am emotionally available for conversation.

I am most easily a friend to the friendless, a help in someone's time of need.
I hate to see people alone. I know how it feels.:(

If someone is in emotional pain, they can pour out their heart to me, and I will understand and care. I will comfort and encourage them if I can.

[logos]

I am like this too. I am more than willing to bare any part of my soul if it will help someone else.

I have worked some on making myself more "approachable".
I smile at folks when I am emotionally available for conversation.

I am most easily a friend to the friendless, a help in someone's time of need.
I hate to see people alone. I know how it feels.:(

If someone is in emotional pain, they can pour out their heart to me, and I will understand and care. I will comfort and encourage them if I can.

It sounds a bit more feminine the way you say it, but yes I think this is accurate for me as well. When people open up to me and give me their personal trust, I feel obligated to help them and protect their perceived sensitivities even though I generally do not entirely understand them. I think it's a parental instinct; a superiority complex tempered with empathy perhaps. Even as a contemplative young teenager I've always said to those few rationals and idealists with which I socialized that I felt as if I am a man who walks amidst a world of children. As I have gotten older, I have come to value those 'children' more and try to teach them what I can.

At the risk of going off topic, I think this perception is a large part of what keeps me single. I have yet to meet a woman of the caliber I desire (apparently found so frequently here) that was available. They are generally married, far too old, or simply uninterested. It is very difficult to try to date someone who feels like a child.

[Allie]

Only my hubby was able to break down almost all the barriers. I fought him tooth and nails! it was a painful process. Until recently, after knowing each other more than 18 years (13 yrs of marriage), he never knew that I fell in love with him at first sight.

I was too busy defending my walls to notice how much I hurt him. So, true to INTJ form, I knew I needed to improve and fix things.

Thank goodness, everything worked out and I didn't ruin it!

[The Rose]

...At the risk of going off topic, I think this perception is a large part of what keeps me single. I have yet to meet a woman of the caliber I desire (apparently found so frequently here) that was available. They are generally married, far too old, or simply uninterested. It is very difficult to try to date someone who feels like a child.Ah. That's too bad.

[Solaris]

I have a somewhat different self-image; while I see a similar set of concentric walls, all of mine are locked. The outer ones have (designed-in) flimsy mechanisms that can be easily over-ridden. As one progresses inwards, the lock mechanisms become progressively harder to overcome, and the keys progressively more difficult to obtain.

One interesting feature within each "courtyard" is that there is a secret "treasure" that is hidden away. As one progresses through the gates, the treasures become more and more valuable (and can often ease transit through the succeeding gate). These treasures are things that I tell no one – voluntarily.

So, a person could blast through every wall using brute force and end up having missed the very best parts of me because they ignored looking for the buried treasures along the way.


Very true. I have a friend who can access my emotions like they are controlled by some switchbox on the outermost wall. However, he will never know the things that really make me who I am, because I'll never tell him. He took the zipline in after opening the switchbox.