Dating as an INTJ

[Gabrielle]

Sorry if this topic or a similar one is already up. But I did look. Anyway, apology in advance.

I'm a solid INTJ, and I'm also male-brain dominant. I don't know if this is to the blame, but for some reason it seems I can't have a relationship. The only one I had was disastrous, and I really mean disastrous - I got into a bout of depression and could not get out of bed for two weeks. And people wonder why I'm so afraid to let my feelings get out in the open.

I don't know why, but it's either I'm extremely dense and I'm not catching guys' signs of "yes, I'm attracted to you" or they are just plain uninterested in me. Apparently (according to two people, one of which I'll talk about in a minute) I'm a little hard to read, and also a little difficult to approach. I have also been told that I'm "a little different from other girls". However, how exactly I'm different was left in the dark.

I recently was talking to my friend about this problem, and then he discreetly told me that he had a crush on me all along. I had a vague idea but after getting teased throughout my high school years (as in, getting asked out as a prank), I ignored his signs. I had to bluntly ask him if he asked me. He said yes. I asked him why he never told me before, and his reply was that he was pretty sure I'd say no.

Then he decided he could not handle being in a relationship with me, reasons not specifically given, and then our frequency of conversation (as in, not the inverse wavelength one but how often we talk) decreased dramatically.

Another guy (who was my debate partner for three years and is like my little brother, my best friend, and something else that I can't quite figure out) also liked me a few years ago, but decided - without ever letting me know - that it simply wouldn't work out.

Have you had similar experiences? I'm really about to give up on dating, but I also wonder if there's anyone who goes through life without a single relationship that doesn't last in Titanic. Because I really can envision myself with only one relationship on record, and that being the disaster.

[mind_wander]

I won't give up hope, there are rare personalities in the area your living at. I am not percise, but I talked to someone who is an male INTJ in Oxford, London. So don't feel too bad.

[Henry]

I figured this whole dating thing out a whole back. I'm fat, very NT, and I still have no problems in the dating world.

I force myself to talk to a bunch of people, and cast a lot of low-risk lines (most I'll do to start is "hey you want to grab some coffee") out there and I eventually get a bite. Its hard, and the rejections hurt, but you force yourself to do it again because a few rejections are better than a lifetime of singleness.

Three insights for the INTJ and dating:
1. In order to date, you first have to talk to people.
2. You have to have social confidence. You've got a *LOT* more to offer than the average person, it just doesn't always feel that way. If you don't have it, fake it.
3. Teasing is the safest form of flirting, and also probably the most natural for the INTJ.



Disclaimer:

I'm probably 60i/40e, and 55j 45p (iNTj), so dating probably comes a tad easier to me than a hard INTJ. And I'm a man, so the incentives for short term relationships is a bit stronger.

[Solaris]

I just started writing this long response. Then, I realized it said nothing useful. So I'm just going to go with this: I get where you're coming from, but I've got no useful advice. You aren't a lone freak is my point I guess, others of us go through the same thing.

I'm still completely dissatisfied with this response. :/

[Kfbr]

I just hate all the mind games that come from being single. My last relationship lasted two years and I loved it. It started out with a "hey, I like you" and a "hey I like you too, let's go out". Too bad everyone enjoys the ridiculous mindfuck that comes with flirting.

I'll echo what the guy two posts above said. Just tease and talk to everyone you can, you'll get a few bites.

[tubaglue]

Don't give in to the mind games. It's all in your head, trust me. Don't worry about being rejected. It's gonna happen. Dating is largely a numbers game. I had the same problems in my youth. I've just recently figured it out. There are 6.6 billion people in the world. If you're compatible with only 1% of them then you're still talking about millions of people. You've just gotta get out there, take your licks (yes it's painful, but educational), meet a lot of people, and eventually you'll learn it's not that bad and most people are in the same situation you are. It's not easy, but it's a worthwile adventure and it's part of growing as a person. From my perspective at least. Good luck.

[rwyatt365]

Sorry if this topic or a similar one is already up. But I did look. Anyway, apology in advance.

I'm a solid INTJ, and I'm also male-brain dominant. I don't know if this is to the blame, but for some reason it seems I can't have a relationship. The only one I had was disastrous, and I really mean disastrous - I got into a bout of depression and could not get out of bed for two weeks. And people wonder why I'm so afraid to let my feelings get out in the open.

I don't know why, but it's either I'm extremely dense and I'm not catching guys' signs of "yes, I'm attracted to you" or they are just plain uninterested in me. Apparently (according to two people, one of which I'll talk about in a minute) I'm a little hard to read, and also a little difficult to approach. I have also been told that I'm "a little different from other girls". However, how exactly I'm different was left in the dark.

I recently was talking to my friend about this problem, and then he discreetly told me that he had a crush on me all along. I had a vague idea but after getting teased throughout my high school years (as in, getting asked out as a prank), I ignored his signs. I had to bluntly ask him if he asked me. He said yes. I asked him why he never told me before, and his reply was that he was pretty sure I'd say no.

Then he decided he could not handle being in a relationship with me, reasons not specifically given, and then our frequency of conversation (as in, not the inverse wavelength one but how often we talk) decreased dramatically.

Another guy (who was my debate partner for three years and is like my little brother, my best friend, and something else that I can't quite figure out) also liked me a few years ago, but decided - without ever letting me know - that it simply wouldn't work out.

Have you had similar experiences? I'm really about to give up on dating, but I also wonder if there's anyone who goes through life without a single relationship that doesn't last in Titanic. Because I really can envision myself with only one relationship on record, and that being the disaster.
First of all, decide whether you want to have a relationship, or not. Make up in your mind, without any outside influence, if being in a relationship is important to you. Everything else you do will flow from that.

If you decide that having a relationship is important to you then you have to open yourself to the things that people do to indicate that they're interested in you. That's the hard part. An INTJs natural tendency is to be oblivious to those kinds of things – the situations above indicate that this is what's happening to you. You're going to have to recognize "the signs" and then decide to do something about it when you see it. You are not dense, you're INTJ. Practice recognizing things in people, you'll get better.

The other hard thing to get past is the INTJ tendencies to a) want to control a situation, and b) hold back a part of yourself. We call it "planning" and "strategizing" and other nice words, but the bottom line is that we're closet control-freaks (because we know what's best, right?) and people can sense that. That's one thing that makes people back off from us, especially non-INTJ men from INTJ women. Add to that the fact the we're not the "warm and cuddly" type (for the most part) and you can see why many men think of INTJ women as "Iron Maidens". Why would a man choose to scrape against your solid-steel exterior when he can fall into so many willing soft, cushy ones? It's not your fault that they can't take it, right?

You can have relationships if you want to. You will make mistakes and have to deal with bad choices, that's part of life, nothing is "safe". Don't get depressed because of those bad choices, learn and move on. You are an INTJ, you are stronger than that.

[Rohsiph]

Three insights for the INTJ and dating:
1. In order to date, you first have to talk to people.

Tentatively agreed here, but I think it could be worth discussing why other people never talk to us--my biggest social hangup is "breaking the ice." Once it's broken, I can talk about anything . . . but there has to be a ridiculous level of interest there for me to go out of my way to initiate a conversation.
2. You have to have social confidence. You've got a *LOT* more to offer than the average person, it just doesn't always feel that way. If you don't have it, fake it.
Yes: social confidence.
No, no, three times NO faking it. Faking anything at the foundation of a relationship is planting a bomb that *will* go off. Don't fake it--if you've got the will, you'll figure out how to solve your problem for real.
3. Teasing is the safest form of flirting, and also probably the most natural for the INTJ.
Disagree that it's natural, but sadly agree it seems all-too-effective. There's a disingenuity to sniping at someone you barely know as courtship ritual--although it doesn't look to set the same bomb as "faking it," I must say when it works it certainly devalues the person it worked on.

Well, I guess it depends on the teasing--social commentaries are fair game. It's the common-man "make a girl feel like shit to get in her pants" kind of teasing that, when it works on an attractive woman, completely turns me off from both the teaser and the teasee.

Disclaimer:

I'm probably 60i/40e, and 55j 45p (iNTj), so dating probably comes a tad easier to me than a hard INTJ. And I'm a man, so the incentives for short term relationships is a bit stronger.

I'm probably a quarter-percent willow, with a touch of moon-stone, and maybe some lobster-scale calculators in the gizmotron, but I'm not quite as clear about you as what that could mean. I'm a man, and I wonder what you mean about the incentives for short-term relationships being stronger?

[Gabrielle]

I'm probably a quarter-percent willow, with a touch of moon-stone, and maybe some lobster-scale calculators in the gizmotron, but I'm not quite as clear about you as what that could mean. I'm a man, and I wonder what you mean about the incentives for short-term relationships being stronger?

I found your "I'm probably a quarter-percent willow" extremely hilarious. Thanks for cheering me up!

Now back to bio... yey med school...

[Firelie]

Med school? And you're worried about relationships? Perhaps you've just got too much going on to have a successful relationship...

[GOD]

Hmmm...

I knew more than a few women at Uni who were doing Med (not pre Med)... and most of them didn't want anything that would detract them from their ability to pass their course.

What you wrote in your first para makes me think you might be best concentrating on your course...

[Firelie]

Plus, if you're only 18 (I think I read that you were, somewhere)...shoot, you've got plenty of time to worry about having relationships after you've got a career in order. *There's no sense in rushing things just because it's "normal" to have a boyfriend/girlfriend. You're you and not anyone else...you can only do what you're capable of doing. *Relationships take a ton of time and energy, and if you try to split yourself into too many pieces you're just going to end up unhappy and frazzled.

[Paul V]

May I give a daring advice?

You should give so much importance to relationships. If you wait long enough, someone just right for you will come along. You just have to be observant and recognise the people you immediately click with (or clash with! Aggressiveness between men and women is often sexual tension in disguise). And when you do, you need to shut off your T part and let F take over. Otherwise, you'll over-analyse the whole thing and either miss your shot or do something you regret (like pushing him away).

Don't worry, all you need to do is repeat to yourself "I'll find the right guy for me" over and over again until you believe it.

[Gabrielle]

Plus, if you're only 18 (I think I read that you were, somewhere)...shoot, you've got plenty of time to worry about having relationships after you've got a career in order.

This is what I'm scared about. By the time I'm where I want to be, I'm 34 or 35, with 2 BSc's, 1 MSc, 1 Ph.D, 1 MBBS, and 2 MD's (hopefully). Which means I'll have loads of degrees on my hands and absolutely no time to date, because all the physicians in the US in the OR are constantly hounded by their beepers. And I'd live my life perpetually single.

[Firelie]

What's your goal in all of that? Just curious, as that's a whole lot of degrees.

I guess you just need to figure out which you value more. I'm not saying it's impossible to have your dream career and have a good relationship with your mate, but it's certainly going to be hard if you have no time for one or the other.

[Gabrielle]

I want to be a clinical researcher in brain cell revival, and possibly transplanting stem cells into the brain to replace them.

[blueback]

I understand you. I suppose that's obvious, since that's why we're here, but I still felt I should state it. My biggest problem is that I don't want to give anyone else any of my valuable time. I'm too comfortable being alone.

Anywho, I recognize it as a weakness I'd like to overcome so I've been working on it for a few years. I found out that there is a sort of subculture organized around the science of attraction. They are called pickup artists (among other things) and while some of them are contemptible, most of them are just normal guys who never learned how to attract women. There are women in the community too, although fewer of them for reasons which should be obvious.

Basically, you probably have to re-educate yourself on the subject of attraction. I'll try to summarize everything here. Most of what I've learned is from the male's perspective.

1. Attraction is not a choice. No one has any control over whether or not they feel attracted to someone or something. No one can make themselves feel attracted and no one can stop the feelig once it gets started.

2. No matter how attractive you are, not everyone will be attracted to you. Even the simple act of becoming more and more attractive to the majority will turn off more of the minority. Even if you're 'well liked' by everyone there will still be that person who hates your guts. When it comes to the more specific question of whether or not you are attractive enough for someone to overcome their fear of the unknown and go out with you there will be even few people who reach the cutoff.

This is where the system of knowledge starts to lose its linear nature.

* Dating is a numbers game. If you think of the population as a bell curve, you as an INTJ are probably only going to be happy with about 5% of it. That means the extreme outliers. Because your targets are so rare you simply have to go through more trials to find them. Look at a diamond mine. They don't wander around waiting for erosion to bring the diamonds to the surface, they use a brute-force attack to remove all the dirt between themselves and that one single diamond.

* You started life at a disadvantage in the activity of dating. One of the keys I learned about is that, as an INTJ, I don't value the same things most of the population values. Most people in the world value other people, while I've never met a person I couldn't do without. Most people value feelings, while I ignore feelings. Most people value relationships arrived at by chance, while I think that is messy and unnecessary. Especially in America, especially women, have been taught that if they don't fall in love by chance it's not really love. They think that if you DESERVE love it will just HAPPEN to you. That's why there are so many divorces, a lot of guys think that too.

* There is one thing you can do which will maximize your attractiveness and your probability of success. Learn how to make friends out of strangers. If you can walk up to a person you have absolutely no reason to talk to and leave them with the feeling that they like you. . .well you will have a superpower. It's a lot of work because you have to ignore what you want and focus completely on what they want. You will probably have to memorize things to say, questions to ask, tones of voice, facial expressions, etc because it won't come naturally. However, you can learn by simply doing it. Go to a place where you don't know anyone and just start talking to people. Make it your goal to have them smiling inside of a minute and then leave.

* When it comes to how to attract guys, I'm afraid I'm not much use. I know what I like but I'm a strange person, several standard deviations away from the mean. My theory is that most guys want a girl who won't challenge them. They want her to want to follow them around and look pretty. The theory also includes that most women are biologically and socially conditioned to be attracted to certain things.

* Those things are: Influence, money, humor, social skill, reliability, looks, etc. Basically, pickup artists (PUAs) learn that if you can work a room so that you are the source of entertainment and status then girls won't be able to stop themselves from feeling attracted to you. I don't know what you are attracted to, but that is what most girls are attracted to. I'm pretty sure that most guys are attracted to: looks, fitness, positive personality, humor, and a sort of indescribable way of making a guy feel like he could take on the world.

Anywho. I’m running down now. It’s tough to lay all this stuff out in a linear format like this. I’ll post more when it congeals properly.

[Henry]

2. *You have to have social confidence. *You've got a *LOT* more to offer than the average person, it just doesn't always feel that way. *If you don't have it, fake it.
Yes: social confidence.
No, no, three times NO faking it. Faking anything at the foundation of a relationship is planting a bomb that *will* go off. Don't fake it--if you've got the will, you'll figure out how to solve your problem for real.[/quote]

I agree that its important to be authentic about who you are, but I don't think its important that you show all your warts to maintain this authenticity. *I don't see any real problem in hiding insecurities and more than I see a problem with women wearing makeup or men pretending they're smarter than they are. *

If you admit that you have no social confidence, as in the case of many INTJs, little point in attempting to date because both sexes screen pretty heavily for it. *Dealing with "But I'm not lovable" is not attractive or endearing. *



Disagree that it's natural, but sadly agree it seems all-too-effective. There's a disingenuity to sniping at someone you barely know as courtship ritual--although it doesn't look to set the same bomb as "faking it," I must say when it works it certainly devalues the person it worked on.

Well, I guess it depends on the teasing--social commentaries are fair game. It's the common-man "make a girl feel like shit to get in her pants" kind of teasing that, when it works on an attractive woman, completely turns me off from both the teaser and the teasee.

Never advocated doing anything that would harm one's self esteem. *I agree with you regarding the lack of nobility in trashing someone's self esteem to manipulate them.

"persistent petty annoyances" *"trifiling raillery" "petty distractions"...was really going for "trifiling raillery"

tease /tiz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[teez] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, teased, teas·ing, noun
–verb (used with object) 1. to irritate or provoke with persistent petty distractions, trifling raillery, or other annoyance, often in sport. *
2. to pull apart or separate the adhering fibers of (wool or the like), as in combing or carding; comb or card, as wool; shred. *
3. to ruffle (the hair) by holding it at the ends and combing toward the scalp so as to give body to a hairdo. *
4. to raise a nap on (cloth) with teasels; teasel. *
5. Also, teaser. Television Slang. a short scene or highlight shown at the beginning of a film or television show to attract the audience's attention. *
–verb (used without object) 6. to provoke or disturb a person or animal by importunity or persistent petty annoyances. *
–noun 7. a person who teases or annoys. *
8. the act of teasing or the state of being teased

High functioning INTJs are known for sharpness of wit. *Playfully applying that to a potential mate should be easy and is likely to be perceived well once one learns how to do it.



I'm probably a quarter-percent willow, with a touch of moon-stone, and maybe some lobster-scale calculators in the gizmotron, but I'm not quite as clear about you as what that could mean.

:blinks:

This is a forum that's based on the MBTI. *"I" being introverted, "E" being extroverted, etc. *One quick way to express "I'm only slightly introverted" is numerically, ie 60i40e, or by the use of lower or upper case letters to denote the strength of the tendency, ie iNTj.

I'm a man, and I wonder what you mean about the incentives for short-term relationships being stronger?

This was a rather bold assertion on my part, let me get back to you when I can muster an argument.

[Henry]

Plus, if you're only 18 (I think I read that you were, somewhere)...shoot, you've got plenty of time to worry about having relationships after you've got a career in order. *

This is what I'm scared about. By the time I'm where I want to be, I'm 34 or 35, with 2 BSc's, 1 MSc, 1 Ph.D, 1 MBBS, and 2 MD's (hopefully). Which means I'll have loads of degrees on my hands and absolutely no time to date, because all the physicians in the US in the OR are constantly hounded by their beepers. And I'd live my life perpetually single.



You'll have a half a million in debt and no social skills. Don't know what your career goals are but can't imagine they'd require that much education.

[radioactivez0r]

My theory is that most guys want a girl who won't challenge them. They want her to want to follow them around and look pretty. The theory also includes that most women are biologically and socially conditioned to be attracted to certain things.



Sorry to single out one single part of your post, but I wanted to mention that (maybe because I'm here) I have to be challenged by a woman, or I will be insanely bored with her. I suppose I'm not alone in that as far as this group is concerned :)

As for the original post...I'm of no help. People tell me I need to get out and meet people, but when I do that (and I can be outgoing in the right company) it still seems to blow up in my face, so I have not yet reached the mindset of "keep trying, eventually it will work" because frankly, it never seems to work.

[Rohsiph]

I agree that its important to be authentic about who you are, but I don't think its important that you show all your warts to maintain this authenticity. I don't see any real problem in hiding insecurities and more than I see a problem with women wearing makeup or men pretending they're smarter than they are.

If you admit that you have no social confidence, as in the case of many INTJs, little point in attempting to date because both sexes screen pretty heavily for it. Dealing with "But I'm not lovable" is not attractive or endearing.

Fair points--though I would still caution heavily against "hiding insecurities"--to a degree. . .

But I'll grant, seeing your clarification, that this route is probably *pragmatic* if not quite the ideal.

Never advocated doing anything that would harm one's self esteem. (etc.)

High functioning INTJs are known for sharpness of wit. Playfully applying that to a potential mate should be easy and is likely to be perceived well once one learns how to do it.

Ah, I'm glad this is what you meant--I agree, here, with the further clarification.

This is a forum that's based on the MBTI. "I" being introverted, "E" being extroverted, etc. One quick way to express "I'm only slightly introverted" is numerically, ie 60i40e, or by the use of lower or upper case letters to denote the strength of the tendency, ie iNTj.

My response to your line herein was somewhat unfair . . . the problem I have is that I've found the system you're currently applying to be a bit less effective than identifying according to strength of preferences. Single letters are *not* the actual preferences in MBTI--we can understand what we're talking about when we discuss "J-ness" or "S-ness," but to be most specific with the system requires us to instead discuss using the 8 introverted/extraverted functions, where the INTJ's preference is, in MBTI: Ni, Te, Fi, Se (Introverted iNtuition, Extraverted Thinking, etc).

This said, I grant that it's a "quick" way of expressing tendency, but I mean to explain that it's not the most effective way. The casual understanding of the system often will lead to discussions of persons arguing percentiles based on one letter--but the deeper workings of the system rely on the preference of the introverted vs. extraverted functions. Following this, an INTJ cannot be "kind of" INTP, because an INTP functions according to Ti, Ne, Si, Fe--which is very much different in practice from Ni, Te, Fi, Se--this just as example of how the casual system often misappropriates the workings of the deeper system.

But it's just a theory in the end . . . the other point in my quip was that it's kind of silly to put too much weight in four letters :)

Also, about your "bold assertion": don't sweat it. I think I understand your direction . . . and that you understand it as a bold assertion in fact suggests to me that I succeeded in perhaps pointing out my little problem with it ;)

[thegnat]

Plus, if you're only 18 (I think I read that you were, somewhere)...shoot, you've got plenty of time to worry about having relationships after you've got a career in order.

This is what I'm scared about. By the time I'm where I want to be, I'm 34 or 35, with 2 BSc's, 1 MSc, 1 Ph.D, 1 MBBS, and 2 MD's (hopefully). Which means I'll have loads of degrees on my hands and absolutely no time to date, because all the physicians in the US in the OR are constantly hounded by their beepers. And I'd live my life perpetually single.



You'll have a half a million in debt and no social skills. Don't know what your career goals are but can't imagine they'd require that much education.

Boo. I have to re-post. Oh well

Anywho: You can double major in college. Then go MD PhD (you still have to pay for school though - if just a PhD you'll get paid to go there) in grad school, get your MS along the way and i highly doubt you'll need your second MD. And I have no clue what an MBBS is. (I've been to talks lately about grad schools and med schools since I want to go PhD in chem)

As to being a challenge - Well as a female I'd consider myself a challenge. A few guys thought I was easy. That kinda pissed me off. But then maybe that's part of my problem....I'm sorry I just don't want to just mindlessly follow a guy around and look pretty for them.

[PhoenixRising]

Dating, what a concept! It conjures up all kinds of images of elaborate rituals, cat and mouse games of trying to figure out another person, human sacrifice etc. *Of course I can only speak for myself, but INTJ's and formal dating pretty much go together like water and oil for the most part.
That's not to say that I don't want to find the perfect mate, as I do (with negative results thus far), and that is the problem, or at least it is for me. Physical Attraction is pretty easy to find, and emotional connection only somewhat difficult. The killer for me is the fact that I constantly evaluate and process and to stay interested I have to be able to see the long term (as in lifetime) potential for the relationship to grow and develop. Once I see traits and behaviors that make that long term vision not possible my interest disappears and it's pretty much a done deal. Right or Wrong that's how I am, If I can't see it working I am not going to invest my time and energy in it (not afraid of hard work, but learned the hard way that I can't sustain a relaitonship being the one to put all of the effort into it, or being a crutch for someone who cannot or will not put effort into continual growth). *Perhaps this sounds very harsh, but after two marraiges and several other LTR's my tolerance level (or perhaps optomism for being able to make a minimally compatible relationship work) is pretty limited. *It's interesting how over time and with age your views on relationships change, but I honestly do think that INTJ's stand a significantly smaller chance of having a successful LTR than most people because of a need for continual growth. Looking at the bright side though most INTJ's are much better prepared and capable of being content solo so it is a trade off- The beauty of being so self contained and sufficient at the price of having a much greater chance of having to live that way long term.

[brewmaster]

This is what I'm scared about. By the time I'm where I want to be, I'm 34 or 35, with 2 BSc's, 1 MSc, 1 Ph.D, 1 MBBS, and 2 MD's (hopefully). Which means I'll have loads of degrees on my hands and absolutely no time to date, because all the physicians in the US in the OR are constantly hounded by their beepers. And I'd live my life perpetually single.



Seriously, if you intend to go down that path, which is very career centric, you will likely not find a mate willing to go for the ride. Life is all about choices, but because of this post that you want a mate, it seems you have set your goals too high. I know saying that to another INTJ is weird, but you have to make a choice, besides of which you are really young.

You can probalby pull off your career goals with less.

Shit, and I thought my 9 years of college was wearing on me.

[Gabrielle]

Thanks for the replies! I want to update on my current status.

I met a guy who is the complete opposite of me... well, at least in ambition. He finished two year college, and is currently working. He lives away from his parents (as in, he lives here and his parents are in Australia), and he's willing to let life coast by.

A year ago he would have been my "HELL NO". But after having a disastrous relationship with a guy who almost had a perfect resume, I am going to give it a try.

The thing is, I'm relieved. I don't need to strive for growth in a relationship, because I'm not going to look for a goal with him. Just as he's willing to let his life coast, I'm willing to let this coast. If this ends up in a ditch, it will end up in a ditch. But I'm going to enjoy time with him while I can.

And since I'm not trying to bring this relationship to any stage, I won't get frustrated with him if stuff doesn't move the way I want it to. It doesn't need to "move"... there is no goal to drag it to.

He is SHY as hell. He never offers any information... I don't think he cares enough to say "NO, I want this". He, for some reason, has never been in a relationship before ( :-?) I am unable to explain this phenomenon.

Yes, I had to go out of my way to him. No, I didn't go confront him. I talked to him online (which probably was a good idea). I was the one who told him that I was interested in him... I'm not sure if he's crazy about me (actually, I'd rather not), but he is interested in me. So that's good.

I'm not sure where this will take me to. Maybe we'll end it in a non-tearful way. Maybe we'd continue this for a long time. I don't know. But I've learned this:

One mistake INTJ makes is to think that relationships are controllable. They aren't. And who knows what'll happen. I definitely did not think this guy would be even close to being a candidate. But I did say hi to him... and if I didn't, I'd still be feeling unloved and depressed.

INTJ's usually try to squsih their images (including their dating images) into a cookier cutter. Yes, I did want a guy who went to Eton then Oxford, spoke perfect English, was sweet, knew what to say, e.t.c. Unfortunately this led me into a ditch. I thought about what I wanted... I just wanted a guy who made me laugh and cared about me. That didn't require much. In fact, I don't need all the brains from the guy! I have all the brains, or I can work at it if not. Why expect it in someone else?

Don't think before you say it. This sounds ridiculous, but INTJ's worry too much over dating and then they never get anywhere. I honestly believe that the lack of sleep was what made me say hi to him. I was also able to express my interest in him more freely because I was hyper from sugar and caffeine when I first said hi to him. If I was myself, we'd still be strangers.

Lastly, be honest. Be yourself. If you think he's not talking to you because you scared him away (substitute him for her if you're interested in females), then say "I think I scared you away". Maybe the person left the computer to get orange juice (yes, this is what happened... I thought I scared him away and he just left to get orange juice). Don't think "If I say this he might not like me". If you think like that and he likes what he sees, both of you are in for a big disappointment when your true color shows.

These were the things I learned. Maybe I'm DEAD wrong. Maybe not. I don't know.

But right now, I'm happy.

[thegnat]

That's good you're happy and all hurricane.

Let me give you advice though:

PLAN YOUR DAYS OUT METICULOUSLY!

Know their schedule so you can actually spend time with them.

Being pre-med is *very* time consuming. Let him know how much that means to you and why you need to do it. Hopefully he understands. And pre-meds are very competitive. It's not that easy to get into med school.

[Gabrielle]

I'm already in med school. So no worries over MCATS.

[blueback]

I honestly believe that the lack of sleep was what made me say hi to him. I was also able to express my interest in him more freely because I was hyper from sugar and caffeine when I first said hi to him. If I was myself, we'd still be strangers.


Your attraction to him is what made you say 'hi' to him. The exhaustion, sugar, and caffeine is what altered your thinking habits to allow you to say 'hi' to him. They broke you out of your preconditioned methods of interaction and let you try something new.

You can recreate that simply by force of will. All you have to do is start talking to strangers. Seriously, that's it. Do it for a couple months and you will form a new habit centered on interacting with people the way you want to, not the way you feel is safest.

Think about it. What about when this new thing ends? Do you want to go back to the long, painful wait for some random chance event to drop someone into your life? Or would you rather take control of your options?

[Gabrielle]

Think about it. What about when this new thing ends? Do you want to go back to the long, painful wait for some random chance event to drop someone into your life? Or would you rather take control of your options?

Lol, you're right. Considering my current streak of luck with the opposite gender (perfect relationship that turned into a shipwreck, a guy trying to get into my pants and that's it, a guy who showed interest then couldn't handle me being 18 and he being 21 before this guy), I don't think there would be a "random" chance.

Although I do envy the girls whom guys just seem to be attracted to, as if the guy's a metal and the girl's a magnet. Alas, I am NOT one of those...

[blueback]

Us guys feel the same way about the guys that girls always seem to be attracted to. For guys, however, it's easier to become that guy. Girls really don't care much about looks so a guy who is serious about changing the way he acts can greatly change his fortunes in dating.

Girls, on the other hand, are kind of handicapped by the fact that guys really are attracted primarily to looks. Girls can do a lot for themselves by changing the way they act, but there is a limit.

I don't think you should let it bother you, though. There are plenty of guys out there who want a girl who 'completes' them and there are plenty of guys who feel that girl is you. All you have to do is find them, or make sure they find you.

That's the hard part. Taking responsibility for making sure your love-life works out the way you want it to. Our culture teaches girls that they are supposed to wait passively for their soul-mate to discover them in a magical, serendipitous crossing of fates. That's bullshit. Get out there and start screening guys to see if they meet your standards.

[logan235711]

Girls, on the other hand, are kind of handicapped by the fact that guys really are attracted primarily to looks.
There are just as many superficial girls out there as there are guys, ask any girl here. Guys and girls are really no different.

[Henry]

There are just as many superficial girls out there as there are guys, ask any girl here. Guys and girls are really no different.

Yes, but they tend to be superficial about different things.

Women talk about and factor in the man's overall appearence and sexual attractiveness when considering a potential lover or mate. For a lot of men, this is one of the or the primary relationship considerations, not just one of many things.

Men tend to think about how she'd look naked. Women tend to think about what they'd look like naked, how much money they make, what their social status is, whether they would be good in bed, whether they would be protective, whether they sync up, whether he'd take care of her infinite emotional needs etc.

The differences can be credibly explained from a purely biological perspective (hence your credible point that many of them are just as shallow as the average man), but still, the woman's decision comes from a decision matrix, the mans is basically comparing her looks-o-meter to his expectations.

[logan235711]

Sorry I don't agree with you. I think you are over-generalizing and stereo-typing both sexes based too much off of the mass media's image rather than how both are independent of that image.

[blueback]

A woman, seperated from the pressures of society, will tend to chose a man who will take care of her and her babies.

A man, sepetated from the pressures of society, will tend to chose a woman who will produce healthy children.

However, there are very few people who are seperated from the pressures of society so the issue does become more complicated. Everyone, to a certain extent, wants to be seen with a person who will raise their status (or at least not lower it).

Everyone, to a certain extent, wants to be fulfilled in every way (or at least not be treated like garbage). Everyone, to a certain extent, wants a partner who will magically match their shifting desires (or at least not wander into activities that make them uncomfortable).

I'm actually getting tired of having to over-qualify every statement I make because people can't read it and give me credit for understanding that all populations have variance. We can't talk about anything if we are constantly being side-tracked by the outlyers.

Yes, most of the people in here want to disagree with the stereotypes of 'men' and 'women' because the people in here aren't normal people. We are freaks. Our personality type is around 1% of the population. We all know that and we all know that we all know that. We don't have to keep stating it over and over again.

Guys and Girls ARE different. If the difference didn't exist it wouldn't be a topic of conversation. Besides the obvious physiological differences we are cognitively and socially different. It does no good, in terms of understanding the difference, to point out that some of the outlyers in the 'woman' group act exactly the same way as some of the outlyers in the 'man' group. Duh! That's why they're called outlyers. The very fact that they exist proves that MOST of the population does act according to stereotype.

For example, when we talk about INTJs vs ABCDs we focus on the TYPICAL representative of each population. When we talk about INTJs vs INTJs we focus on the people who are so far off the mean they barely qualify. Therefore, when we talk about men vs women we should focus on the typical representative of each population.

[Henry]

Sorry I don't agree with you. I think you are over-generalizing and stereo-typing both sexes based too much off of the mass media's image rather than how both are independent of that image.

...

This post is something along the lines of "I'm right, you're wrong you media lackey". Wow, post of the month.

[logan235711]

XD

[lebowski]

I believe blueback mentioned that time is too valuable to waste on anybody else. I feel like that a lot as well. I'm very comfortable when I'm not in the presence of others.

I'm highly introvert (80-100% depending on the day)so dating is not easy for me. I usually meet women through an intermediary (i.e. a friend) so I already have some credibility, to offset the fact I'm not much of a conversationalist.