Flirting: How do you tell?

[aexis]

Something of a corollary to an old thread on the INFP forums... I've noticed that most INTJs - myself definitely included in this, can't see flirting unless it hits them in the face like a blunt object. However, there seems to be a couple of exceptions to the rule:
- You can see flirting really obviously when it's someone you don't have the slightest interest in.
- If/when you do see it from someone you are interested in, you rationalise it away as being inconclusive.

How do you lot establish if someone is interested, especially with the more feely types, such as INFP?

[Courtney]

I can see flirting instantly, it's just that I dunno how to flirt back,lol and it makes me uncomfortable. It's usually with eye contact, light touching on the arms and shoulders, and changes in the tone of voice. Guys will usually play silly little tricks or games and women flirt by giggling or acting cute. That's from what I've observed.

[deicruxified]

i just got a remark a while ago

"you still don't notice?!?!"

[umop_3pisdn]

It depends. I find men tend to make it more obvious than women. I tend to be somewhat clueless when a woman is hitting on me, but I tend not to be looking for that sort of attention from them, as I'm gay, anyways, and tend to just assume they're being "friendly," because I can be somewhat naive sometimes.

I find the best cues come from body language and how much physical contact they make with me. Physical contact is always a good sign. People generally don't touch people who they think are gross.

Though I can still kind of miss it, lots of times. Sometimes I can be too intellectually removed from social situations, which results in me not noticing such details as what cues people may or may not be giving me. So sometimes I can be very oblivious.

Also as mentioned by Courtney, I could not flirt if my life depended on it. My style of "flirting" tends to be ridiculously safe, and not that different from my normal social persona.

[Parallel]

I can always tell if someone is flirting, as I find it easy to flirt with men just to amuse myself. I never flirt with someone I am really interested in though, I've always thought flirting is a form of trickery and manipulation only to be used for meaningless fun.

The way I can tell a guy is interested is if they ask me questions that go farther than just the standard exchange in conversation. They stumble with words. They try to move close to you even without knowing they are doing it. They smile a lot and look directly at you. Depending on the guy, he might seem shyer or more bold with you than he is with other people. They try to crack corny jokes especially when you're in private and seem embarassed if you don't laugh.

Most of it, however, does have to do with subtle body language; the nuances of which can only really be well understood by seeing it.

[rwyatt365]

When the flirting is blatant, I can tell (who can't?). But it's that subtle stuff that goes right by me. My upper-arm stays sore from my wife punching me in it because I think someone is being friendly, and she's convinced that it's flirtation.

BTW - why hit ME? Hit HER!!

[TheLastMohican]

BTW - why hit ME? Hit HER!!

Haha, my thought exactly!

[curiousjane]

Ha ha!

My first thought upon reading this thread title last night was "only in an INTJ forum ..."

I've observed that not all flirting is equal. There is:

Online/E-mail Flirting = Sarcastic come-backs, witty remarks, faux put-downs, bold statements you'd never say in person.

Play Flirting = "Hey, hot stuff, pass the ketchup or I'll beat you up."

Look At Me—I Need Attention! Flirting = Giggling, light slaps on the arm, "Oh, Benji, you're sooo smart! I'm just dumb and *soft sigh* sooo lonely."

I Like You Flirting = Smiles, eye contact, questions about you, laughing at your jokes, slight elevation in voice tone, answers your phone calls, listens intently to what you have to say, occasional physical contact (touches your arm, shoulder, elbow, hands, back), exuberance, willingness to spend time with you. This is the most natural kind, but the least obvious.

I Want You Flirting = less listening, more physicality. Hint: if the person snuggles REAL close, whispers in your ear seductively, kisses you in a not-so-friendly way ... you get the idea

I Might Be Falling in Love With You Flirting = Anything in the "I Like You" flirting category, but a little more intense and intentional. At this point, backing out into "Play Flirting" territory could be a defense mechanism to avoid sounding too mushy or desperate, or to avoid admitting to themselves that they are feeling vulnerable

That being said, I've never considered myself any good at either blatantly flirting or noticing if somebody is actually flirting with me.

My roommate claims I flirt very, very well with the guy I'm interested in right now ... I try to protest, but she won't hear any of it. What she's seeing is that I am comfortable enough with him to let out my silly, goofy, interested side (the "I Like You" stuff). I also have acted out of my comfort zone and let out an intentional bold comment or two, to make sure he gets it. ;) (And by "bold" I mean something along the lines of "I really like such-and-such about you.)

But I'm really not any good at it. I swear! If it works, it's only 'cause a guy likes dorks. Not 'cause I made him fall at my feet and worship the ground I walk on by the mere power of my batting eyelashes alone.

[Moriarty]

It depends on the setting, but generally nonverbal communication gives it away. I can spot flirtatious body language, but in a setting where there are alot of people around involved with one another I may have a hard time figuring out if it's aimed at me or someone else.

[blueback]

There is no hard and fast way to establish whether or not someone is flirting short of getting them to admit it.

It is a form of communication that is intentionally ambiguous because women are allergic to straight-forward relationships. Get to know some gay guys some time, they are incredibly straight-forward with each other. They still have feelings like all people, but there is very little communication going on that could be misinterpreted.

Women enjoy feelings quite a bit. More feelings are generated by uncertainty and luck then by certainty and planning. If a guy flirts with a girl correctly the girl will be unsure whether or not he likes her, if he does, how much he likes her, if he doesn't, why is he treating her that way, if maybe he will like her in the future, if he is trying to get her to like him so that he can get to her friend, if he wants to marry her, if he wants sex, if he wants to brutally murder her, if he doesn't want anything and she's just reading meaning into nothing. See? It is intentionally ambiguous. That way, when something finally does happen between the two of them, it wansn't anyone's fault. . .it just happened.

That being said, there are some patterns you can watch for.

Escalation: you touch them, they hold your hand. You squeeze them, they squeeze you harder/longer. Either one of you can be the one to escalate. It might be reversed if they squeeze your hand, you squeeze harder, and they don't let go.

Kino: Most people don't touch other people. When we do, it is for specific reasons, usually to communicate something. Bro's hug each other in a specific closed-fist-ass-out-1-2-3-done sort of way that communicates they are straight men who feel affection for each other. A superior will touch a subordinate's shoulder to communicate that they are in charge. A man will touch a woman in different ways during the courtship to communicate he is interested and that he knows how to touch her properly.

Hoops: The more someone wants to please you the more hoops they will jump through for you. For example, if someone is going to the kitchen and you ask them to get you a drink that is a small hoop. If someone is in the middle of an intense game of Halo and you tell them to go to the kitchen and get you a drink that is a large hoop. The more hoops someone has already gone through the more likely they are to go through the next one provided it isn't bigger then they are comfortable with.

Proximity: People tend to gravitate towards the things they want. The closer someone is to something the more likely they are interested in it. The pattern especially holds if they are hiding their interest, especially if they are a woman. Women like it when things just happen, so by being close to the object of their interest they are increasing the odds something will happen. It's easier for a guy to talk to them if they are right next to him, but by pretending to not have noticed him they still put the burden on him. Guys do the same thing, but usually they are looking for a way to naturally engage with the woman they are pretending to not have noticed. Same coin, different sides.

[curiousjane]

If someone is in the middle of an intense game of Halo and you tell them to go to the kitchen and get you a drink that is a large hoop.

This is so true of my guy friends it isn't even funny. Wait. Yes, it is.

So, there you have it: the true test of interest. WOULD HE ABANDON A GAME OF HALO FOR YOU???

:laugh:

[And the flip side ... Would you let him take over the entire house to hook up 12 computers with widescreen LCD monitors, invite over all of his friends, and hand out drinks in the middle of multi-player mode mayhem? And LIKE it?]

[Uytuun]

I can instantly spot it when I'm not interested, when I'm interested it is a friggin' DISASTER. Once you start to analyse, you're doomed.

[aexis]

All very insightful replies, especially curiousjane and blueback...

However I wonder how and if many of you get over the default response of flipping back to 'they're probably not interested as i dont have any proof' immediately after the fact. That appears to be a major stumbling block for a lot of us.

[Uytuun]

However I wonder how and if many of you get over the default response of flipping back to 'they're probably not interested as i dont have any proof' immediately after the fact.

If you find the cure, let me know.

[Alcuin]

It's a chronic problem with me.

Recurring Situation

Them: I'm attracted to you.
Me: ..? Oh, that's what that was.
Them: What, the flirting?
Me: I thought you were just being friendly.

[TheLastMohican]

Online/E-mail Flirting = Sarcastic come-backs, witty remarks, faux put-downs, bold statements you'd never say in person.


How is that flirting? On this forum we all do that to each other regularly.

Are witty replies and sarcasm less common on other types' forums?

[rwyatt365]

To curiousjane I would offer the following INTJ flirtation;

Online/E-mail Flirting = Sarcastic come-backs, witty remarks, faux put-downs, bold statements you'd never say in person.

That's how I communicate via email! That ain't flirting, that's just how I am.

Play Flirting = "Hey, hot stuff, pass the ketchup or I'll beat you up."

That's what is in my mind. What comes out sounds something like, "Hey...umm...er...(damn, I forgot her name). Hey, hot ketchup! Beat me up or I'll pass you the ketchup. No...wait...ummm...(what the hell is her name?!! Uh, oh I'm starting to sweat - I better run away)"


Look At Me—I Need Attention! Flirting = Giggling, light slaps on the arm, "Oh, Benji, you're sooo smart! I'm just dumb and *soft sigh* sooo lonely."

Instead; Intense stare, eye-to-eye contact, "Benji, I'm smarter than you and we both know it so I'll lower my standards just this one time to see if you're worthy, OK?"

I Like You Flirting = Smiles, eye contact, questions about you, laughing at your jokes, slight elevation in voice tone, answers your phone calls, listens intently to what you have to say, occasional physical contact (touches your arm, shoulder, elbow, hands, back), exuberance, willingness to spend time with you. This is the most natural kind, but the least obvious.

Offers the second controller to the PS/2.


I Want You Flirting = less listening, more physicality. Hint: if the person snuggles REAL close, whispers in your ear seductively, kisses you in a not-so-friendly way ... you get the idea

Same as above plus offers the cushion next to them on the couch.


I Might Be Falling in Love With You Flirting = Anything in the "I Like You" flirting category, but a little more intense and intentional. At this point, backing out into "Play Flirting" territory could be a defense mechanism to avoid sounding too mushy or desperate, or to avoid admitting to themselves that they are feeling vulnerable

Same as above, but offers a bite of the Twinkie and a sip of Mountain Dew.

See, INTJ flirting is really easy.

[blueback]

However I wonder how and if many of you get over the default response of flipping back to 'they're probably not interested as i dont have any proof' immediately after the fact. That appears to be a major stumbling block for a lot of us.

That's because we don't take the time to find out. Like I said, you will never have any proof unless you force the person to admit they were flirting, that's the nature of the game.

However, I don't suggest you corner them and make them say uncle. What I suggest you do is flirt back. You don't have to be clever or romantic, all you have to do is figure out a way to be alone with them, or try to touch them, or see if they hold your eye contact, or see if they'll do a small favor for you, etc.

[aexis]

What I suggest you do is flirt back.

That doesn't make it any more conclusive.

[chibiabos]

Stop looking for proof, try to get them in the sack. There really isn't any better proof for "were they flirting" then, I have just finished having sex with them. :p

[curiousjane]

How is that flirting? On this forum we all do that to each other regularly.

Are witty replies and sarcasm less common on other types' forums?

See? That's exactly what I tell my roommate when she's looking over my shoulder. But she's an ISFJ, so she's way more in tune with traditional flirting methods than I am.

But no. Evidently, depending on the message, the sender, and the receiver, it can be flirtation.

I guess it all goes back to intent. Which probably supports blueback's theory.

---

When I think about it, many of the things I listed can be used in a friends-only environment. I laugh and joke and poke fun at coworkers and friends, both guy and girl.

But if for the guys I'm interested in as a boyfriend? I'd try to get to that level of fun friendship as a conduit to something more. That's just my style. I'm sure there are others.

[Alpha Prime]

Ha ha!

My first thought upon reading this thread title last night was "only in an INTJ forum ..."

Me too! *Gives you a high five*

As an INFP, you are obligated to post a picture of yourself (if you are a female), and if you have any hot friends, post their pictures and their phone numbers too, or else... ;)

[buddingscholar]

See, INTJ flirting is really easy.
Ha! That's awesome.
When I flirt, I just show off how much I know about a given topic to see if the person I'm interested in is at all intelligent. At worst I get an "aw, you're so cute!" (which happens a lot) and at best a sexually charged debate (which never happens).
Ex: Oh, you're French? Prefierez-vous Satre ou Camus? Moi, j'aime bien la poesie et la philosophie du dixhuitieme siecle. Ce sont tres interessant, non? (big, endearing smile)"

[Lynne]

Except in the very rare case when I am interested, I can always tell when someone is flirting with me. I just act oblivious. I've never been comfortable with being flirted with. It always seems so primal. Flirting will not get me interested. Being smart or funny might.

[blueback]

That doesn't make it any more conclusive.

Read the next sentence.

[Opivy1980]

I am actually really good at noticing when other people are flirting but absolutely atrocious if I am the recipient. For me flirting is entirely intellectual, I prefer a good debate to just about anything, including physical intimacy. When someone really has an informed opinion even when it differs from mine that is a turn on.

[curiousjane]

Me too! *Gives you a high five*

As an INFP, you are obligated to post a picture of yourself (if you are a female), and if you have any hot friends, post their pictures and their phone numbers too, or else... ;)

Oh, we're a bunch of hot chicks. (I'm the one in the foreground standing in the front, farthest right. Obviously. As an introvert, I'm more interested in contemplation than snuggling, like all those ESFP gals in the center.)

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And rwyatt365, LOVE IT! INTJ "flirting" sounds fun. So, if I get offers of junk food and a game of Halo on the couch by my favorite INTJ, I should feel flattered?

[TheLastMohican]

Oh, we're a bunch of hot chicks. (I'm the one in the foreground standing in the front, farthest right. Obviously. As an introvert, I'm more interested in contemplation than snuggling, like all those ESFP gals in the center.)

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Wow, that made me laugh...:laugh: *high five from me too*

[Solaris]

See, INTJ flirting is really easy.

LOL :laugh:

If only you could understand fully what you just said...

[Alpha Prime]

Oh, we're a bunch of hot chicks. (I'm the one in the foreground standing in the front, farthest right. Obviously. As an introvert, I'm more interested in contemplation than snuggling, like all those ESFP gals in the center.)

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I'ma eatcha up. All 50 of yah. I will take one pair of legs at a time, beginning with the ESFP's. Yumm.. I will get in touch with you later, but for now, I suggest you get off of your ass and run!

47 chicks left... Yumm.... yumm.... 23 left.... mmm... 12, 9... 3 left..

By the way, your vibe reminds me of someone!

[Tenacious B]

I am actually really good at noticing when other people are flirting but absolutely atrocious if I am the recipient.
Same here. I'm lucky if I realize what is going on within the same day.

usually goes something like this...

girl: :lovestruck:
me: :rolleyes:
girl: :embarassed:

next day...
me: :irked:

[curiousjane]

I'ma eatcha up. All 50 of yah. I will take one pair of legs at a time, beginning with the ESFP's. Yumm.. I will get in touch with you later, but for now, I suggest you get off of your ass and run!

47 chicks left... Yumm.... yumm.... 23 left.... mmm... 12, 9... 3 left..

By the way, your vibe reminds me of someone!

:stunned:

Has my cover been blown? Hard to tell, considering you're even more anonymous than I am, what with all those X's in your type.

And run? Are you kidding? This chick has stealth ninja moves! Hiyaaaaa!

(Stop making me go off topic. I don't want to be banned. This place is too much fun, and I'm enjoying dispensing INFPy wisdom.)

[Motor Jax]

i'm real picky in the flirting arena, but once i find one that i just might have fun with

oh, it's on!


but there is also a difference in the way people flirt:

1. there are those that are loud and boisterous, talking highly of themselves

2. there are those that are charasmatic in their methods

3. there are those that prefer the toned down monologue, speaking with charm

4. and there are those that let the charm work its own magic while slowly hypnotizing with whispered words and body language


i tend to be the latter

[ElstonGunn]

I can't think of a single instance in which I was very sure that someone was flirting with me. I do realize that (hypothetically, at least) flirtation could involve me to some extent, but I don't recognize it, no matter how obvious it is. And on the rare occasion that I think, "Wait, is she flirting with me?" it's usually immediately followed by, "Nah, she's probably just friendly or talkative or in a good mood or something. Just because she's talking to you, that doesn't necessarily mean that she's flirting, you dope."

[Motor Jax]

any chick that is talking to me, i assume is flirting with me

so, i'll jokingly say, "so, what are you doing tomorrow?" you know, if its the weekend or something. and if she says, "oh, nothing. maybe sleeping or cleaning or something." oh yeah, she's going to get asked to go do something with me


now, if she says, "me and my husband are... blah blah..."


NEXT!



but seriously, if i'm in the mood, i can spot it pretty easily. and i will take it and run with it as far as i can go


other times, it can be so obvious to the point where i am buying them drinks at the bar, and i just want to communicate with someone

and they are just not the type i am looking for

but i'll still buy them a drink, sure...

[Ytterbium]

I'm utterly useless at this. At chemistry class in school a girl whom I currently worked with stood very close to me. Then she slowly turned and pushed her huge rack against my arm. I could feel her breast embrace my arm. I looked down on her and she had the innocent sarcastic oops all over her face.

Then about 30 minutes later it came to my mind what she had done.

[SickFish]

I notice when other people are flirting with me but only if I have already ruled them out as possible dating candidates. If I do notice someone flirting with me that I like it is generally loooooong after the moment has passed to do something about it.

I can flirt but only if I don't try to flirt. I'll only notice that I was flirting later upon inspection.

I just don't have the nack for flirting to be able to interpret what it means quickly and efficiently. The best I could hope for is to file away instances of flirting in my mind and if the same circumstances happen again bring up my thoughts on the previous circumstance.

[Alpha Prime]

:stunned:

Has my cover been blown? Hard to tell, considering you're even more anonymous than I am..

;)

...what with all those X's in your type.

How exciting is a solved puzzle? And, what with "you", "flying" so high in your pic, are you reaching for a pair of kenneth cole shoes that somebody threw in the air?

And run? Are you kidding? This chick has stealth ninja moves! Hiyaaaaa!

Make sure you use, your BEST moves, because I love getting into the ring, and getting down and dirty.

(Stop making me go off topic. I don't want to be banned. This place is too much fun, and I'm enjoying dispensing INFPy wisdom.)

*Eats another one of your chick friends*.

[thod]

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[Solaris]

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I had read that article before. I'd be interested to see the MBTI types of the participants. I wonder if you tested ability to read flirting signals after breaking out into MBTI types what the results would be like. Would they still be evenly spread? I mean, statistically, there would be bell curves in each group, but would they be even across type and gender?

[curiousjane]

Maybe humans should start doing this to make flirting signals clear; seems to work for the squids.
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(Note: I have no idea of the veracity of this scientific marvel.)

[eclecticjoker]

Oh, lord. I'm retarded at flirting. I do, however like it when there is absolutely NO CHANCE of misinterpretation. I flirt best with my gay friends, because I know they won't get the wrong idea. It's just a way of joking around, really.

When I was younger I was really concerned with flirting being manipulative, and I avoided it for that reason.

I'm also really lame at recognizing flirting, but I'm sort of coming to realize that many young guys live in a perpetual state of interest in females, and if a guy you don't know very well pays you particular attention, odds are he's interested. That's sort of off-putting in itself, really, because it's all so superficial.

Anyway, I've never had a relationship, and that's likely why. Oh, and when guys I'm interested in flirt with me, I usually get grossed out. Maybe it's because I have the emotional maturity of a kindergartener. (I'm in college, so maybe I should get on that.)

I think it's a self-esteem issue. If a guy is interested in me, they're obviously crazy, as I have no attractive qualities.

And yeah, I know that's very likely not actually true, but I've tried telling my subconscious that and she just won't listen.

[DrEast]

Analysis of behavior patterns. But always be aware of a desire to see flirting where flirting may not exist, so if you feel a desire for the person you suspect of flirting it may be best to weigh your analysis in a negative direction.

A problem many INTJs have is that flirting is not clearly defined, and its goals may be ambiguous at best. Don't trust the judgment of your friends, either. They'll always try to confirm flirting long before you've rendered a proper verdict, whether or not flirting is actually present.

[Solaris]

Analysis of behavior patterns. But always be aware of a desire to see flirting where flirting may not exist, so if you feel a desire for the person you suspect of flirting it may be best to weigh your analysis in a negative direction.

A problem many INTJs have is that flirting is not clearly defined, and its goals may be ambiguous at best. Don't trust the judgment of your friends, either. They'll always try to confirm flirting long before you've rendered a proper verdict, whether or not flirting is actually present.

I think you've accurately described the trap in which we all find ourselves. If you read this, you'll understand exactly why we are such dunces with trying to deduce wth it means, because we don't want to be presumptuous. I can actually flirt (at least, I used to be able to, I need to work on that again now I'm single once more), and I STILL am terrible at determining intent and meaning.

[Emma]

It's a chronic problem with me.

Recurring Situation

Them: I'm attracted to you.
Me: ..? Oh, that's what that was.
Them: What, the flirting?
Me: I thought you were just being friendly.


Ditto for the "being friendly" part.

I think it is hard to decipher the meaning of casual little touches on the arm, hugs...when we are not being very tactile ourselves.
I just keep wondering: "is it because they want to show some interest, or is it because they are naturally warm individuals who are used to expressing friendship with hugs?"

[blueback]

Oh come on! Stop wallowing in self-pity and just take responsibility for your own life.

I'm so sick of seeing people post the exact same thing. "I just can't possibly tell the difference between flirting and being nice. It's impossible."

All you have to do is test them. If they are willing/eager to be alone with you, to do things for you, to touch you more, to laugh at your jokes, to look into your eyes for a long time, to touch you for a long time, etc then yes they are flirting with you. If no, then they were just being friendly. It's not complicated.

Just sack-up and take the risk of finding out someone was being nice to you instead of flirting with you. As long as you keep it light and uncommited you won't "get in trouble" or anything. In fact, that's why flirting is so ambiguous, so that no one loses anything if it doesn't work. It's a game, it has rules, it is logical once you analyze and practice it. You can learn it.

[ElstonGunn]

Oh come on! Stop wallowing in self-pity and just take responsibility for your own life.

I'm so sick of seeing people post the exact same thing. "I just can't possibly tell the difference between flirting and being nice. It's impossible."

Alright. But it is possible, especially here, that "I don't know jack about flirting" could be the same basic sentiment as "I don't know how to stand on my head and recite the alphabet backwards." In other words, "Hey, I don't get it, but who cares?" A lot of us aren't necessarily saying that we want to be good at flirting-- who has time for that when there are so many physics equations and philosophical dilemmas to be solved? ;)

That being said, it can be helpful to be reminded that if you actually do want to have a relationship, you're probably going to have to stagger your way through the dangerous minefield of weird, illogical crap that normal people seem to be so fond of, like flirting and dates and feelings.

[blueback]

I think the thing that is holding people back from understanding is their assumption that feelings are under everyone's control.

INTJs are naturally in control of their emotions to a much greater extent than other types. We don't do something just because we feel like doing it, so we tend to assume that no one else does either. That leads us to confusion when we try to analyze people's actions and they aren't logical. Well, they aren't logical BECAUSE people are obeying their emotions.

However, that doesn't mean that you are forever relegated to the netherworld of people who don't understand feelings. All you have to realize is that emotions are reactive; they are generated in response to an environment. Understand the environment, you understand the emotion. Control the environment, you control the emotion. Emotions are very determenistic when you look at the right data-set.

Each individual still has their own pattern of reactions, but those patterns are set and once you document them they are predictable. Just try it. I think you'll enjoy the puzzle.

[suzyk]

I've flirted with boys playfully, of course. No point in taking in further. A guy even touched my butt once, but then he got a severe duffing. Too young to have a relationship.

[ElstonGunn]

I think the thing that is holding people back from understanding is their assumption that feelings are under everyone's control.

INTJs are naturally in control of their emotions to a much greater extent than other types. We don't do something just because we feel like doing it, so we tend to assume that no one else does either. That leads us to confusion when we try to analyze people's actions and they aren't logical. Well, they aren't logical BECAUSE people are obeying their emotions.

However, that doesn't mean that you are forever relegated to the netherworld of people who don't understand feelings. All you have to realize is that emotions are reactive; they are generated in response to an environment. Understand the environment, you understand the emotion. Control the environment, you control the emotion. Emotions are very determenistic when you look at the right data-set.

Each individual still has their own pattern of reactions, but those patterns are set and once you document them they are predictable. Just try it. I think you'll enjoy the puzzle.

I think you make a very good point, especially in the bold part. As a cold, un-emotional bastard (INTJ? :p), I don't succumb to my feelings automatically. If I see a woman and I feel an attraction to her, I don't just go ahead and talk to her. From what I gather, a lot of people flirt with someone as a way to find out if they like the other person. For me, I don't flirt* until I'm reasonably certain that I like the woman.

On the other hand, I'd have to be a fool to assume that the way I do things is the way most other people do things. After all, aren't there a lot of people who think that socializing is, dare I say.... fun?! :huh::huh:

Just because I evaluate my emotions before acting on them (as any sensible person who wants to be right would ;)), I shouldn't assume that everyone else does likewise. To put it bluntly, it would be stupid to act that way.


* My own standard of flirtation, which is woefully inept, understated, and inadequate.

[robolizard55]

I am actually really good at noticing when other people are flirting but absolutely atrocious if I am the recipient.

Oh yeah... And apparently, pointing out other people flirting is flirting itself!

It was really funny to have this happen. I was at one of my rare appearances at a bar with a few good friends and one new person (female), and I pointed out to her some othr people socialzing at the bar. I pointed out people on a first date, a group of people and indictaed who was interested in who, and so forth. Later on, my good friend (female), who knows how I am honest with people (everyone), told me that I was flirting. I am generally oblivious how talking about something interesting can be interpreted as flirting. I just though I was being nice and entertaining. I assumed that was the purpose of talking to the new person!

[schwartzie]

rwyatt has it absolutely on, with his controller.

INTJ flirting is when our seemingly smart but sober INTJ starts disclosing stuff that's particularly geeky. If the flirtee actually responds, well ... (Ahh...revelation...)

[blueback]

You were probably getting interested in the subject material and she interpreted it as being interested in her. Most people don't understand our hard-on for ideas.

[schwartzie]

You were probably getting interested in the subject material and she interpreted it as being interested in her. Most people don't understand our hard-on for ideas.
no... I was just trying to be amusing but truthful. I'm so embedded in my INTJness that self-revelation of my eccentricities IS how I flirt. I if the person gets it, and *likes it,* then I'm in heaven. If not, well, it's a quick way to figure out that there's probably no future here.

An example. Tell me if you think this will work: I'm from this goofy little small town that has summer festival focused on the local commodity--cheese. Complete with cheese parade, sculptures, princesses, etc. Pretty parochial place.
During the last couple of days, I made a short trip to that area. To impress a new object of my affection, with whom I'm in the getting-acquainted stage, I brought back a small colby. (It's a very special colby; in the 2008 world colby competition, it got a 99.10 on a 1-100 scale). His beloved 8 year old daughter likes colby, 'cuz it's kinda rubbery. So, this...bringing his kid a cheese.... that'll endear me to him, don't ya think? Especially if I can tell him about cheese judging, the smothering oppressiveness of rural culture, and what I learned on my trip about the globalization of cheese production/distribution, and consumer well-being? ...or do you think it'll take wine...?

[rwyatt365]

no... I was just trying to be amusing but truthful. I'm so embedded in my INTJness that self-revelation of my eccentricities IS how I flirt. I if the person gets it, and *likes it,* then I'm in heaven. If not, well, it's a quick way to figure out that there's probably no future here.

An example. Tell me if you think this will work: I'm from this goofy little small town that has summer festival focused on the local commodity--cheese. Complete with cheese parade, sculptures, princesses, etc. Pretty parochial place.
During the last couple of days, I made a short trip to that area. To impress a new object of my affection, with whom I'm in the getting-acquainted stage, I brought back a small colby. (It's a very special colby; in the 2008 world colby competition, it got a 99.10 on a 1-100 scale). His beloved 8 year old daughter likes colby, 'cuz it's kinda rubbery. So, this...bringing his kid a cheese.... that'll endear me to him, don't ya think? Especially if I can tell him about cheese judging, the smothering oppressiveness of rural culture, and what I learned on my trip about the globalization of cheese production/distribution, and consumer well-being? ...or do you think it'll take wine...?
Actually, I think the whole thing is kinda cheesy...ba-dum-dah!
(man, I kill myself!)

Really, I think it's a good start...connect with his child (what parent doesn't like that?!), open the door to an interest, provide a basis for a discussion (avoids awkward silences)...I like it. And if the cheese doesn't work, bring on the wine!! :thumbsup:

[bluenote]

Lord knows I really need that brick upside the head to even get an inkling that a guy is flirting with me. As for flirting back I’ve seen 30 car smashups that look better than I do when I’m flirting. If I really like a guy for the life of me I don’t know why I can’t look him directly in the eye and all this intelligence I have goes right out the window, since I’m unable to string together a totally complete coherent sentence. Thankfully some guys think it’s really cute I’m so “shy” and try to get me out of my shell. All those non verbal cues go right by me all the time.

[punkyplatypus]

touching, giggling, blushing, winking, joking, compliments, talking "dirty", and wanting to spend time with you. there are also visual cues you might notice. if you don't really know them and you catch them looking at you & they look away fast/casually, try hard to keep an eye on them to see if they look back up to see if you're still looking. i'd say the quicker the double take, the more they're interested in you. if you know them better, they might try something a staring contest or tickling you. of course these might just be friendly gestures, but you should be able to find out their intentions by inviting them out on a "date" or for a drink or something where you can talk more in private.
of course intjs aren't inclined to such actions. so hopefully if you really like him/her, he/she is more inclined to make the first move. otherwise surpress those emotions like a good intj; you don't need those distractions :)

[DrEast]

It's hard on male INTJ's... society still thinks the guy should make the first romantic move. On the other hand, I'm beginning to suspect that women have actually been making the first first move for generations, perhaps forever. Also, although I'm not sure this is universal, I for one have no interest in "demure" or "sweet" fema... women. I'm far more interested in highly motivated women with a strong sense of self and an unshakable identity, so that pressure is thankfully a little alleviated.

This all reminds me of an actual event from my college days. One of my best friends and I were hanging out in the room of one girl I'd been very interested in for a while, and we discovered that we (the girl and I) were both staying in college over spring break. What happened thereafter was perhaps the single most humorous romantic event I've ever been personally involved in. Acting in remarkable coordination, we both began dropping strong hints to my friend that perhaps he'd like to go somewhere else for a while. It only took three or four before he caught on and skedaddled. Thereafter we both realized that the daunting task of asking the other person out still loomed ahead. (We were, of course, both too introverted to attempt this in front of my friend.) She was, as I have mentioned, a highly motivated girl with a strong sense of self, and perhaps a little tired of having past hints ignored (actually, I had just mentally put them into my mental "possible romantic interest" file... but you all know what I'm talking about, so no need to explain that), was determined to just ask me out. I, on the other hand, was just as determined to ask HER out, and realizing that she was about to score points on me in the great game of life (another INTJ thing, I'm sure), do so before she had a chance to.

I wish I had had a tape recorder on me, and had it running.

Without letting the other person get a word in edgewise, we both simultaneously (but in nothing approaching unison) asked the other if they'd like to go out that weekend, agreed (we actually both answered the other person's date request in the affirmative), and decided on perhaps dinner and a movie. I don't think it would be possible without the use of sensitive instruments to determine who asked the other one out first. At least it was over fairly quickly.

Sadly, a ridiculously virulent stomach virus (ah, dorm life) kept me from actually following through on this date, and while we had others later, we really lacked much besides a mutual interest in each other for any long-term romantic fulfillment. Still, we had a good time, and I'll always remember that particular evening fondly. (We were both, in order to have an excuse to be in physical proximity, playing the old nintendo Mario Bros, and doing RIDICULOUSLY BADLY at it. I don't think either of us got to world 1-2. This is very atypical for me. I was distracted.)

[curiousjane]

We were both, in order to have an excuse to be in physical proximity, playing the old nintendo Mario Bros, and doing RIDICULOUSLY BADLY at it.

:laugh:

My idea of a good first date, right there. Ah, the nostalgia.

[schwartzie]

very funny story--thanks for posting.

[suzyk]

I have Super Mario Bros. on my Wii, it's fun.

Double dates usually suck.

[ElstonGunn]

Double dates usually suck.

I don't know why you'd want to play man-to-man when you could play a zone.

[PRBori]

Hmm...

I don't flirt with people I don't know; however, I do flirt a lot with that special person in my life in a private setting...

In regards to knowing when someone is flirting... well normally men ask me out, ask me to go for dinner or something like that... or just say that I look good when I know I look like "hell".

I had one manager from my apartment complex send me a letter telling me to go out to dinner and all his contact information, of course that's obvious.... I also had another men hanging around my apartment asking me questions and if I wanted to go out... of course neither one of those got any response from me... I hate that approach

All in all, I hate men who flirt with me. I can tell easily by their body language, the way they talk, and their actions. Someone telling me "Hi Baby" or any flirty phrase when I'm walking ticks me off so bad is not even funny. I tend to ignore men that flirt with me with direct comments or invitations; however, I do get attracted by an intellectual conversation anytime..

A direct eye to eye contact during a conversation is a turn on...
An interesting intellectual conversation or brain teaser is a turn on...

Of course neither of the ones above means I will go out for a date, but it will certainly work better than the direct approaches men tend to show towards me.

[Brilliance]

This is actually a very hard topic for me to realize actually. Although I don't get much attention and don't give much to others, as I am quite quiet... The most obvious of things anyone can pick up on, but the little things that people do is really mind boggling.. It makes little sense to me.

[blueback]

Hmm...
All in all, I hate men who flirt with me. I can tell easily by their body language, the way they talk, and their actions. Someone telling me "Hi Baby" or any flirty phrase when I'm walking ticks me off so bad is not even funny. I tend to ignore men that flirt with me with direct comments or invitations; however, I do get attracted by an intellectual conversation anytime..

A direct eye to eye contact during a conversation is a turn on...
An interesting intellectual conversation or brain teaser is a turn on...

Of course neither of the ones above means I will go out for a date, but it will certainly work better than the direct approaches men tend to show towards me.

Are you hot?
If some guy you didn't know said "Can I get your thoughts on something? What do you think is the best way to rectify the disparity between the rich and the poor?" would you be excited to talk about something theoretical like that?
Is direct eye contact always a turn on, or only when you already like the other person?
How do you judge your level of attraction to people who haven't yet had a chance to demonstrate their intelligence?

[True Rune]

I can't see it unless it's right in front of me, then well I go away because I don't care for it, even in other people. (Nobody flirts with me.. I hope..)

[wiccademic]

I have never noticed flirting from women and I know it immediately when it's from men. I am a heterosexual male btw. On dates I've always needed to be kissed first unless I was drunk. I almost never made the first move on a first date because I always felt it to be ungentlemanly. I know I have missed certain "opportunities" because of this but it was always important to me to handle myself in a respectable manner. Perhaps that was my way of being "better than the next guy."

[Chimerical]

There is no hard and fast way to establish whether or not someone is flirting short of getting them to admit it.

It is a form of communication that is intentionally ambiguous because women are allergic to straight-forward relationships. Get to know some gay guys some time, they are incredibly straight-forward with each other. They still have feelings like all people, but there is very little communication going on that could be misinterpreted.

Women enjoy feelings quite a bit. More feelings are generated by uncertainty and luck then by certainty and planning. If a guy flirts with a girl correctly the girl will be unsure whether or not he likes her, if he does, how much he likes her, if he doesn't, why is he treating her that way, if maybe he will like her in the future, if he is trying to get her to like him so that he can get to her friend, if he wants to marry her, if he wants sex, if he wants to brutally murder her, if he doesn't want anything and she's just reading meaning into nothing. See? It is intentionally ambiguous. That way, when something finally does happen between the two of them, it wansn't anyone's fault. . .it just happened.

That being said, there are some patterns you can watch for.

Escalation: you touch them, they hold your hand. You squeeze them, they squeeze you harder/longer. Either one of you can be the one to escalate. It might be reversed if they squeeze your hand, you squeeze harder, and they don't let go.

Kino: Most people don't touch other people. When we do, it is for specific reasons, usually to communicate something. Bro's hug each other in a specific closed-fist-ass-out-1-2-3-done sort of way that communicates they are straight men who feel affection for each other. A superior will touch a subordinate's shoulder to communicate that they are in charge. A man will touch a woman in different ways during the courtship to communicate he is interested and that he knows how to touch her properly.

Hoops: The more someone wants to please you the more hoops they will jump through for you. For example, if someone is going to the kitchen and you ask them to get you a drink that is a small hoop. If someone is in the middle of an intense game of Halo and you tell them to go to the kitchen and get you a drink that is a large hoop. The more hoops someone has already gone through the more likely they are to go through the next one provided it isn't bigger then they are comfortable with.

Proximity: People tend to gravitate towards the things they want. The closer someone is to something the more likely they are interested in it. The pattern especially holds if they are hiding their interest, especially if they are a woman. Women like it when things just happen, so by being close to the object of their interest they are increasing the odds something will happen. It's easier for a guy to talk to them if they are right next to him, but by pretending to not have noticed him they still put the burden on him. Guys do the same thing, but usually they are looking for a way to naturally engage with the woman they are pretending to not have noticed. Same coin, different sides.


Yeah I'm going to file that away somewhere safe for further usage.

Ha ha!

My first thought upon reading this thread title last night was "only in an INTJ forum ..."

I've observed that not all flirting is equal. There is:

Online/E-mail Flirting = Sarcastic come-backs, witty remarks, faux put-downs, bold statements you'd never say in person.

Play Flirting = "Hey, hot stuff, pass the ketchup or I'll beat you up."

Look At Me—I Need Attention! Flirting = Giggling, light slaps on the arm, "Oh, Benji, you're sooo smart! I'm just dumb and *soft sigh* sooo lonely."

I Like You Flirting = Smiles, eye contact, questions about you, laughing at your jokes, slight elevation in voice tone, answers your phone calls, listens intently to what you have to say, occasional physical contact (touches your arm, shoulder, elbow, hands, back), exuberance, willingness to spend time with you. This is the most natural kind, but the least obvious.

I Want You Flirting = less listening, more physicality. Hint: if the person snuggles REAL close, whispers in your ear seductively, kisses you in a not-so-friendly way ... you get the idea

I Might Be Falling in Love With You Flirting = Anything in the "I Like You" flirting category, but a little more intense and intentional. At this point, backing out into "Play Flirting" territory could be a defense mechanism to avoid sounding too mushy or desperate, or to avoid admitting to themselves that they are feeling vulnerable

That being said, I've never considered myself any good at either blatantly flirting or noticing if somebody is actually flirting with me.

My roommate claims I flirt very, very well with the guy I'm interested in right now ... I try to protest, but she won't hear any of it. What she's seeing is that I am comfortable enough with him to let out my silly, goofy, interested side (the "I Like You" stuff). I also have acted out of my comfort zone and let out an intentional bold comment or two, to make sure he gets it. ;) (And by "bold" I mean something along the lines of "I really like such-and-such about you.)

But I'm really not any good at it. I swear! If it works, it's only 'cause a guy likes dorks. Not 'cause I made him fall at my feet and worship the ground I walk on by the mere power of my batting eyelashes alone.

I'm sold on the idea that my sister is INFP because you're EXACTLY the same. But she doesn't give advice too much and is too stuck in what she beLIEves in type of deal. What a waste, INFP and INTJ are supposed to learn from each other or something like that.

Anyway I'm gonna file this away somewhere too.

Then I'll try to find a useful way to utilize both in an executable format or something like that. Cause I seriously suck at relationship and I need to fix that.

[lordrrr]

I don't even think I really understand what flirting really is...

[PRBori]

Are you hot?
If some guy you didn't know said "Can I get your thoughts on something? What do you think is the best way to rectify the disparity between the rich and the poor?" would you be excited to talk about something theoretical like that?
Is direct eye contact always a turn on, or only when you already like the other person?
How do you judge your level of attraction to people who haven't yet had a chance to demonstrate their intelligence?

Hehehe... well I don't consider myself HOT for that matters but I do have something men tend to like and no matter how much I try to hide it is nearly impossible for it still stands out way too much...:p

Rich and Poor... hmm... I think it depends, to me there are two types of RICH people, does who didn't work for it but just inherited a large sum of money, and those that actually work hard to get where they are. As for the poor, I also have to types, those that due to circumstances out of their hand are unable to move on due to society conditions ignoring them (i.e., Africa, South America) and those that decide to be poor by choice, who do have skills and can get a job if necessary but choose not to work. So would I be excited to talk about theorictical aspects of life or events, to some extend as long as it not related to politics... I hate politics.

Direct contact is nice because you can look into someones soul to some extend, And NO I'm not that easy... as I mention above that doesn't mean I will be interested... Of course the person must get my attention somehow and I must like him before anything else takes place. In addition, I do look people straight in the eye, specially at work and is certainly not for dating...


Hmm... how do I judge my level of attraction? Well I try to give them a chance to demonstrate their intelligence, but if I had no other choice, I will say actions speak louder than words. How he threat others, how he speaks, and how he values moral views will be one way for me to judge outside of intelligence.

[TehBeefah]

I know exactly what you mean, wiccademic. My girlfriend got annoyed that she always had to initiate everything, but I guess I just had it beaten into me that girls have to give the go-ahead or intention before we can do anything.

Also, I am quite excellent at informing my female friends when other guys are flirting with them, but evidentially am completely oblivious to when girls flirt with me. I'm thinking my friends are lying to me so I feel better about myself...

[PortInStorm]

I was just thinking about this lately. There is nothing more sexy than a guy who knows the line between intiative/leadership, control/bossiness or wusiness. One takes an idea and presents it, watching carefully for signs of acceptance while having confidence that at least she won't hate it. Not every date has to be a girl's favorite thing ever because what she's really looking for is romance and being with the guy, wherever they are, whatever they're doing. As long as they don't absolutely hate it.

The other gives a bazillion options while not giving any hint of what they'd really like to do or are prepared for, leaving all these decisions completely up to the girl, while the bossy one says (alright, this is a stereotype) "Get ready darlin', we're going to Nascar!", while she's all dressed to the nines for a classy date.

[Antares]

Same here. I'm lucky if I realize what is going on within the same day.

usually goes something like this...

girl: :lovestruck:
me: :rolleyes:
girl: :embarassed:

next day...
me: :irked:

This is how my 'flirting' went. It wasn't really flirting, but it was a total giveaway, and I missed it; my friends all told me to flirt with him, or at least give him some sign that I 'receive' his signals, but I resorted to analytical thinking.

guy: :scared: *apologizes*
me: :stunned:
guy: :embarassed: (blush and apologize more)
me: :embarassed: (flee)

There's another occasion:

me: Won't you PLEASE do make yourself useful and put this away? I'm doing EVERYTHING.
entp: *smirk* No. My hands are too precious
me: *exasperated* You piece of crap.

*bickering ensues*

five minutes later...

friend: "Omgeee! you were SO flirting!"

He was handsome, I'll give you that. But when I tried to flirt (I wasn't serious. just trying it out), no one notices. When those guys turn me into a nutcase, I'm suddenly 'flirting'.

[PortInStorm]

Wow, that could've been a page out of me and my ENTP's book- he was always like that...

[Antares]

Wow, that could've been a page out of me and my ENTP's book- he was always like that...

Does he drive you nuts? I'm friends with a lot of male ENTPs and none of them seem to be the 'serious' and 'committed' type. Encounters with them are fun but exasperating (especially if they misquote your insults and fling it back at you. They're clever, that bunch). And they love getting a rise out of me. I was in love with one of them, but I cannot see how you're still sane when dealing with one in a relationship.

[PortInStorm]

Wait til they're older- they only get better. It didn't really exasperate me, I enjoyed it immensely at the time. Now we're older and he's great company- and can be serious when called for, yet still make you smile when you need it.

Granted, perhaps he was flirting back then, and he's not now as we're friends and both married. Part of it may have been that he wasn't serious about me (and yes, it was frustrating when I saw him as a love interest and he wouldn't 'commit'), but he was with someone obviously as he ended up married.

[Antares]

Wait til they're older- they only get better. It didn't really exasperate me, I enjoyed it immensely at the time. Now we're older and he's great company- and can be serious when called for, yet still make you smile when you need it.

Even if I do enjoy their attention (now, I can't outright admit this to them. From my mouth, they're either annoying or stupid; can't be anything else. I once complimented one. His ego blew over), it's usually mingled with frustration that they're twisting my words around, and before I can protest being misquoted, they saw my motion of opening my mouth as trying to whine, and they increase their teasing to the point where I won't even try to interject.

[PortInStorm]

In fear of derailing the thread, I'll say this is likely their type of flirting... I completely understand, you'd almost be speechless... they are clever little buggers, and they love their effect, probably target you because you're fun to do it to. I think they look for 'worthy' opponents.

[OddFactor]

I perfectly relate to those points. When the girl I'm seeing was originally flirting with me I was completely oblivious and just brushed it off whenever I did notice. When I recently brought this up with her she was surprised and responded with, "Dude (she uses this when she's serious as opposed to our casual pet names), how did you not tell? It was pretty fucking obvious." She's quite the charmer.

[Solaris]

I perfectly relate to those points. When the girl I'm seeing was originally flirting with me I was completely oblivious and just brushed it off whenever I did notice. When I recently brought this up with her she was surprised and responded with, "Dude (she uses this when she's serious as opposed to our casual pet names), how did you not tell? It was pretty fucking obvious." She's quite the charmer.

That sounds exactly like the kind of thing I'd say, lol

[capricornintj]

I'm completely clueless in this area. When I notice someone smiling in my direction, I instinctively turn to see who they are looking at. When I don't find anyone behind me, I brand them as a freak for smiling at nothing. A few minutes later, after it has had time to process, it dawns on me that they were smiling at me. But by then they've assumed that I'm not interested and have moved on.

Even the bold ones confuse me. For example, if they make the first move and start kissing me, I find myself thinking "I wonder if they like me?"

[changos]

I'm pretty dumb at this. I identify the unusual behavior but I can't say if it is just a joke or serious flirt. I cannot detect WHEN she is telling me to attack... I'm stupid at this. Usually I walk by smiling and being kind with everybody and then I'm told "long time ago I was crazy for you" or "hitting like a hammer" and I just didn't notice it. I preffer straight talk :)

[capricornintj]

I'm pretty dumb at this. I identify the unusual behavior but I can't say if it is just a joke or serious flirt. I cannot detect WHEN she is telling me to attack... I'm stupid at this. Usually I walk by smiling and being kind with everybody and then I'm told "long time ago I was crazy for you" or "hitting like a hammer" and I just didn't notice it. I preffer straight talk :)

I prefer directness too, but it has to come at the appropriate time. If someone I just met says that they like me, I immediately wonder what is wrong with them. I mean, they are allowed to like me, but only when I've deemed that they are worthy of liking me (or rather, they are worthy of my time). Does that make any sense?

On the flip side, I probably make decisions too fast. By the fourth date (on the rare occasion I allow it to get that far) I've already made up my mind that we click, we work, and I have planned the rest of our lives together. Apparently this is not normal behavior, and tends to frighten them. Or so I've been told.

[lampmeister]

If you're unsure if a girl is flirting with you just smile, look at her and ask her, "Are you flirting with me?" If yes, proceed. If no, then feign disappointment tell her you think she'd be really good at flirting and ask her if she'd like to give you flirting lessons.

[gogurtdynasty]

i don't know how to flirt so i rarely recognize it... unless people are flirting in grotesque ways then i notice... but thats more being hit on

but slip me a drink... its a whole new world

[seoa]

i have sympathy for this... i'm an enfp, and i've been *so* flirting with "my" intj at work for the last.... erm... more than 4 months. but coz i can tell he's uncomfortable with physical contact, i've not been able to move to the "small physical touches" stage of standard flirting, coz he'd freak, and that would upset me & interrupt the flirting, so it's just not worth it. so i can see why (if he checked my behaviour against "lists" of "normal" flirting) i wouldn't necessarily match up.

but the eye contact is off the charts, and since we've started gazing & smiling he now makes an effort (sometimes) to come over & chat... i use any possible excuse to chat to him, or email him.... he never initiates email conversation in return (frustrating! - is he trying to come across as uninterested??), but does increasingly initiate minor verbal exchanges....

it's slow going though.... i've not been able to decide if he's interested, or just happy to stop at the flirting stage.... and to be honest, i'm still not sure - maybe he's content to stay in this comfort zone...?

aaaaghhh :-)

[Timdotz]

it's slow going though.... i've not been able to decide if he's interested, or just happy to stop at the flirting stage.... and to be honest, i'm still not sure - maybe he's content to stay in this comfort zone...?

aaaaghhh :-)

Just ask him directly, if he really is an INTJ, it shouldn't be a problem.


Also a point of interest I came across the other day:
Quote from attila_the_hunny, "From my past relationships with INTJs, I've concluded that you don't choose them--they choose you."

Sigh.. If only the world was full of INTJ's. Then flirting wouldn't exist. Only direct, short and sharp meaningful communication is used. Much more productive and much more time saved wouldn't we all agree?

[curiousjane]

Hear, hear!

Well ... except I like a little light flirtation to keep things interesting. But I've always said I'd almost rather just wake up one day married and go, "oh, so YOU'RE him. Okay."

And then just move on with life. I've always been good about fostering affection for those I care for and live with. Whether family, friends, roommates, whatever ... why not add "husband" to the mix, and live as happily ever after as our communication skills allow?

[seoa]

Just ask him directly, if he really is an INTJ, it shouldn't be a problem.

*sigh*

problem is the whole working together thing. and a dismaying lack of confidence with men right now. so i *really* would like some more encouragement before i make a fool of myself over him....

[iuniperus]

I'm oblivious to the outside world, flirting included. I don't pick up those subtle signs that they're interested. Flirt all they want, if they're not blunt they're not getting anywhere.

[Timdotz]

*sigh*

problem is the whole working together thing. and a dismaying lack of confidence with men right now. so i *really* would like some more encouragement before i make a fool of myself over him....

Why don't you make a fool of him like start odd conversations about odd things? Or just play around with him a bit just to relax him? I'm guessing he is much too tensed up to do anything confidently.

[44sunsets]

If you're unsure if a girl is flirting with you just smile, look at her and ask her, "Are you flirting with me?" If yes, proceed. If no, then feign disappointment tell her you think she'd be really good at flirting and ask her if she'd like to give you flirting lessons.

This is good advice! :thumbsup:

[jesse]

Unless it smacks me silly across the face, I am unaware of it, most of the time. Unless flirting is dead obvious, it's a pain identifying this behavior. Small talk and other social niceties are noise to me :D

[seoa]

If you're unsure if a girl is flirting with you just smile, look at her and ask her, "Are you flirting with me?" If yes, proceed. If no, then feign disappointment tell her you think she'd be really good at flirting and ask her if she'd like to give you flirting lessons.
I have to say... given the lack of certainty i've had at some points about "my" intj's interest in me, and the impression he sometimes gives that he'd despise me if i was interested & he wasn't -

- if he'd asked me this outright, without any of the normal signs of flirtation on his part, i'd probably have assumed it was to clarify the facts, so he could tell me not to be interested in him... so i might have dissembled a little, to protect my pride /our working relationship...

what i'm saying is: you can only expect direct truth if there's a reasonable foundation for what's coming... which is kinda what flirting exists for!!

what would have worked for me? the hardest thing for me to get past was that we started flirting (i.e. extended eye contact, smiling, and some long conversations), and then the days, and weeks, and months have been going by, and he doesn't seem interested in taking things any further. until i had my myers-briggs moment this week, and discovered that that's normal for his type, i was just putting it down to a lack of any real interest on his part. so i've been backing off coz of his (perceived) lack of interest, then trying again coz i do quite like him and it does sometimes seem that he likes me, then getting no increased level of response, then backing off, etc....

consistency would have helped: if he'd understood that days when he was abrupt with me might well have been coz he was busy /not in the mood to chat, but left me feeling like he disliked me as a person. All it would have taken was a smile, to show it's not personal...! and yeah, i know that understanding the type means i can talk myself past that, but not everyone's reading this stuff.... :-)

smile at me. act like you think i'm a nice person. consistently. then you can ask me if i'm flirting with you, or just being enfp-y....

[Metaphor]

I'm a terrible flirter. I don't even like it in the first place as it always seems to come across as being fake.

[ElstonGunn]

What if, in stead of flirting, the standard social convention was that you had to have a guy with arms the size of tree trunks punch you in the stomach a few times before you could become involved with someone romantically? That would seem stupid, not to mention pretty dang painful, right? You might even say, "Nuts to that, I'll just stay single."

Well, that's kind of what flirting is like for a lot of INTJs (with a certain degree of legitimate hyperbole, I think). Don't expect those types of people to be enthusiastic about flirtation. It's very unpleasant for them.

[SirJac]

I've found it's gotten easier for me to tell when a girl is interested, though I admit for the longest time I was about as dense on the subject as you could get. If you know what your looking for, and you see enough indicators, then it's not too difficult even when it's subtle.

A couple things are subconscious, they will happen regardless of whether or not they are actively flirting. One is proximity, if you like somone you'll be closer to them then if you didn't like them. The best way to gauge this is to observe a control subject that you know they are not interested in, if they generally stand or walk closer to you then they do to the other person your using as a control subject, it's a pretty good indicator of interest.

Another important one is the size of their pupils. When you make eye contact with someone you are attracted to, your pupils naturally dilate. However, a person's natural pupil size can vary and ambient light can also cause changes so to use this as a measure you need to observe their pupil size under normal conditions to have something to compare to.

Probably the best indicator though is pheromones. If your working on something and your person of interest comes up close to you and all of a sudden you forgot what you were doing cause you got something else on your mind, little alarms should be going off in your head.

Remember though that those indicatos are subconscious and doesn't mean they are actively flirting with you, it simply means that they are attracted to you. So even if they are attached to someone else and arn't actually looking for some side action, they can still give off those signals. You'll want to back it up with some active flirting signals first.

Brief touching is a solid active indicator. You don't briefly touch people that you wouldn't mind touching not so briefly in a more private setting. Neck, shoulders, arms and back are all common locations for this.

Extended eye contact, especially with a little smile is also a solid indicator. If you lock eyes then she turns away from you with a bigger smile, you know something is up too.

Gifts in general are important to watch out for. Whether it's a coffee, a ride home, or a birthday present, it's all a good sign. In reverse asking for help, especially when that help involves spending some time 1 on 1, can be more of an excuse rather then an actual need of assistance.

Finally, watch to see if they look back when you part ways. The pro flirts will often look back over their shoulder to see if your still watching, or checking or their ass. And if your interested, you should be checking out their ass.

[wiccademic]

ok so if INTJ women love INTJ men, where is the dating thread on here? lol

[probity]

I don't establish someone is interested in me unless I'm completely uninterested in them.

My partner had to come straight out and tell me how he felt about me before I noticed his feelings for me even though he'd been trying by not so subtle flirting for an entire year preceding the confession.

[cullenisacreep]

I mull over every detail of our conversations, usually coming to the conclusion that he's just being friendly.

[interstellar]

ok so if INTJ women love INTJ men, where is the dating thread on here? lol

i have one, though he's not on here

[lambpox]

I can't really tell if someone is flirting with me...I do, however, notice when my best friend does; she's an iNFP. She is a sucker for physical contact, and constantly wraps her arms around anyone she is close with, and hugs strangers, even. She has this certain charm with people that I lack.

I have an INTP friend who I think likes me, and I think his form of flirting is giving constant compliments, awkward moments of physical contact (incomplete hugs!!) and staring at you relentlessly. That's why I like when INTJ's manage to flirt with you, or try to. Let's just say they give it their all, from what I've seen. Their witty comebacks and bouts of sarcasm! swoon.

[Kisai]

ok so if INTJ women love INTJ men, where is the dating thread on here? lol

I imagine that no one wants to go first and start one, for fear of looking desperate.

[kdm]

I imagine that no one wants to go first and start one, for fear of looking desperate.

That had me cracking up for little while, as for the OP question I can see it well when it isn't directed at me. If it is directed me then I am completely oblivious to it, and at the end of the day when I am replaying events over in my head I start thinking 'ah crap not again' :disappointed:.

From what I read on here I'm not the only one.

[KPrincess91]

dear aexis!
i quite agree with you. if someone i dont like flirt me, i will feel very uncomfortable. thank you for your share.

[Prunesquallor]

I refuse to flirt and I hate when people try to flirt with me. If anyone wants something from he, he had better damn well learn to be direct. I have no patience for mind games.

Of course, I have on occasion been accused of flirting. Bu a heavy amount of wishful thinking was involved there, I think...

[Squirelznflight]

I've noticed that most INTJs - myself definitely included in this, can't see flirting unless it hits them in the face like a blunt object. However, there seems to be a couple of exceptions to the rule:
- You can see flirting really obviously when it's someone you don't have the slightest interest in...


I've had 2 semi-stalkers. I attach the "semi" because it was in elementary and high school, so they were like wannabe stalkers and it's still something of an uncomfortably amusing memory, and also because I'm trying and failing to be funny.

Stalker 1 was in 2nd grade or so. In gym, the coaches had all the kids lined up to number them off into "Four Corners" (like a combination of dodgeball and "Capture the Flag" except the flags were rubber chickens and there were four of them) teams. He couldn't find a lce to sit so I waved him over. He asked if I liked him, I asked why he would think that. He said a girl who likes a guy usually asks that guy to sit by her. That seemed logical, so I shrugged. He referred to me as his girlfriend until he moved a couple years later.

Stalker 2 was an overbearing ESF in my 9th grade orchestra. He had horrible behavior and inhibited learning, but he was weird and amusing in a WTF kind of way, so when he started hugging me I didn't immediately put him in his place. However, when it got to the point I couldn't stand him, he couldn't understand why I no longer put up with the hugs. He kept bothering me about it and trying to put his arm around me, so I sicked my overly protective ENTJ dad on him with strict orders not to injure him since I didn't want my dad in jail. From there on out he didn't harass me, but kept to flirting. Ex: He'd open doors for me and cry, "After you, my queen!" It was awkward, but hey, at least it cracked me up.

In response to the topic: I've never been flirted with in a way that was not glaringly obvious. It's always extremely over-the-top. I have no idea why I attract that sort of thing. :confused:

[Saint Alexander]

I'm a firm believer in the adage "Hindsight is 20/20" - I almost never catch on until way too late in the game. I don't know what it is, but I'm nigh-on oblivious to come-ons, until about a week later, when I sit down and think "Well, what exactly was she trying to say by - "I just got a haircut, and nobody seems to notice" anyway?"

[llBradll]

I think that using more sensing as apposed to intuition helps a lot.

[MaleVolentworld]

Can someone tell me if this is flirting?

I was sitting on the plane with my right arm resting on the ...arm rest while watching a film. Two air hostesses stopped just before me, one was dealing with a customer and the other was just standing there close to me. She'd keep on rubbing her leg onto me, this kept on happening for 5 mins or so and if it would have lasted any longer I would have just put my hand up her skirt because that's where my mind was taking me.

[green eyes]

Can someone tell me if this is flirting?

I was sitting on the plane with my right arm resting on the ...arm rest while watching a film. Two air hostesses stopped just before me, one was dealing with a customer and the other was just standing there close to me. She'd keep on rubbing her leg onto me, this kept on happening for 5 mins or so and if it would have lasted any longer I would have just put my hand up her skirt because that's where my mind was taking me.

My guess is yes.... Unless she thought you were a part of a seat or if she had to be so close to you for some reason related to that other attendant and the person that other attendant was talking to. Was her leg touching your skin? Did she ever say anything to you? Even a "Sorry"?

[ElstonGunn]

She'd keep on rubbing her leg onto me, this kept on happening for 5 mins or so and if it would have lasted any longer I would have just put my hand up her skirt because that's where my mind was taking me.

My internal response to that would have been, "What the hell?" I doubt I'd say something like that, though. I'd probably just pull my arm away without trying to seem like that's what I was trying to do. I might shift around in my seat so I'd have an excuse to move. That way it would look more like I was trying to get physically comfortable than mentally comfortable.

[alphawolf]

I hate when people try to flirt with me.

You don't need to worry, if your eyes look like the ones in the avatar!


"Bust it

This here's a tale for all the fellas,
Try to do what those ladies tell us,
Get shot down cuz you're over zealous.
Play hard to get females get jealous.
Ok, smarty, go to a party.
Girls are scantilly clad and showin' body,
A chick walks by, ya wish ya could sex her,
But she's in another world like you was poindexter.

Next day's function, high class luncheon.
Food is served, and you're stone cold munchin'.
Music comes on, people start to dance,
But then you ate so much you nearly split your pants.
A girl starts walkin', guys start gawkin',
Sits down next to you and starts talkin'.
Says she wanna dance cuz she likes to groove,
So come on, fatso, and just bust a move .

You're on a mission,
And you're wishin' someone could cure your lonely condition.
Lookin' for love in all the wrong places,
No fine girls, just ugly faces.
From frustration, first inclination,
Is to become a monk and leave the situation.
But ever dark tunnel has a light, I hope,
So don't hang yourself with a celibate rope.

New movie's showin', so you're goin',
Could care less about the five you're blowin'.
Theatre gets dark just to start the show,
Then you spot a fine woman sittin' in your row.
She's dressed in yellow, she says hello,
Come sit next to me ya fine fellow.
You run over there without a second to lose,
And what comes next, hey, bust a move.

In the city, ladies look pretty,
Guys tell jokes so they can seem witty.
Tell a funny joke just to get some play,
Then you try to make a move and she says no way.
Girls are fakin', goodness sakin',
They want a man who brings home the bacon.
Got no money and got no car,
Then you got no woman and there you are.

Some girls are sophistic, materialistic,
Lookin' for a man makes them opportunistic.
They're lyin' on the beach, perpetratin' a tan
So that a brother with the money can be their man
So, on the beach start strollin', real high rollin',
Everything you have is yours and not stolen.
A girl runs up with something to prove,
So don't just stand there, bust a move

Just bust a move

Break it down for me fellas

Your best friend ,Harry, has a brother Larry...
In five days from now he's gonna marry.
He's hopin' you can make it there, if you can,
Cuz in the ceremony you'll be the best man.
You say neato, check your libido,
And roll to the church in your new tuxedo.
The bride walks down, just to start the wedding...
And there's one more girl you won't be getting.

So you start thinkin', then ya start blinkin',
A bride maid looks and thinks that you're winkin'
She thinks you're kinda cute so she winks back
And now you're feeling really fine cuz the girl is stacked.
Reception's jumpin', bass is pumpin',
Look at the girl and your heart starts thumpin'.
Says she wanna dance to a different groove,
Now you know what to do, g, bust a move.

Just bust a move

Move it boy."

[Gaby]

It's really weird... I cannot really tell when someone is flirting with me, or sometimes I notice, but it's always too late, he is already flirting with another girl :(

[rain]

I personally don't like it when men try to flirt with me. If I liked you, I would do the flirting- and by flirting, I mean touching you lightly on the arm, tousling your hair and the like, gently pretending to push you etc.

When men flirt with me, it feels creepy. On the other hand though, I like men who are friendly, but overt flirting I feel uncomfortable with and tend to steer clear of men who seem like predators.

[Bacteria]

Yup, I'm completely oblivious to it, even when it's smacking me over the head I'll still mistake it for someone being overly nice to me.

[Storm]

I find that I naturally flirt when around a person I like.
Although, oddly, it seems these men do not pick up on it. Whereas men that I am not flirting with, even go out of my to not flirt with, are attracted to me. They are like cats. (a cat instinctively recognizes the one person who doesn't like cats and goes up and nuzzles them)

[alphawolf]

It's really weird... I cannot really tell when someone is flirting with me, or sometimes I notice, but it's always too late, he is already flirting with another girl :(


Flirt!

I like your eyes.

[rain]

I find that I naturally flirt when around a person I like.
Although, oddly, it seems these men do not pick up on it. Whereas men that I am not flirting with, even go out of my to not flirt with, are attracted to me. They are like cats. (a cat instinctively recognizes the one person who doesn't like cats and goes up and nuzzles them)

Do cats do that? I find that cats are generally timid and passive-aggressive. They run and hide. Of course, when they want attention, they just sit on your keyboard, HEY LOOK AT ME! I WANT ATTENTION! and then when you pet them, they pretend like they don't want it and wrap themselves around your leg, slinking back and forth.

Of course, I'm saying this, but I also happen to love cats. I think they're neat. But I would say if I had to categorize a certain personality type with the cat personality- it would be INFJ and INTP males who act in this way.

[alphawolf]

Do cats do that?


Cats are INFJs. Chase a cat and see what happens. Ignore it and it will be all over you.

[rain]

Cats are INFJs. Chase a cat and see what happens. Ignore it and it will be all over you.

I had a bf who was a cat and he was an INTP despite the fact that he insisted he was like a golden retriever, lol. (He knew I loved golden retrievers).

He was the sort of cat who liked lots of attention, who liked women who took care of him, petted him, and fed him. He disliked being ignored, but when he would want attention from you, he would just sit there and would occasionally test you to see if you cared if he walked away.

Of course, I categorized him as a cat-male, but my friends insisted that he was a Jewish prince. Hehe.

[alphawolf]

He disliked being ignored, but when he would want attention from you, he would just sit there and would occasionally test you to see if you cared if he walked away.


They dislike being ignored when THEY want attention, not when YOU want to give it to them.

Key difference.

[rain]

They dislike being ignored when THEY want attention, not when YOU want to give it to them.

Key difference.

Rather concomittant.

[Rho1334]

I generally dont even notice if someone is flirting with me and I definately dont know how to flirt. Generally I'm very blunt with how I feel and tend to scare people off.

[Acextreme]

Flirting? What's that?

On a serious tone, I don't think any girls have been interested in me for the past year or so, or maybe there were but it just went past me without me ever catching on and they thinking that I snubbed them? I don't know...or maybe I am too scary to approach...having a too serious look, etc...oh well...

[eggman]

I have to agree. I don't know if it's really because of the personality type but I can only notice very obvious flirting. Thank God there's other people around sometimes. ;)

[Pink]

What about when you finally do tell someone you like them after vague flirting which you have over analyzed again and again and they respond with let's be good friends. The men who are very forward or who hold no attraction, I can see them coming, but it seems every guy I would like to date is not interested in being more than friends. Or is it that I ask if my interest in them should be pursued in a blunt and direct manner and they run and hide behind the shield of friends? Why is it so hard!

[alphawolf]

What about when you finally do tell someone you like them after vague flirting which you have over analyzed again and again and they respond with let's be good friends. The men who are very forward or who hold no attraction, I can see them coming, but it seems every guy I would like to date is not interested in being more than friends. Or is it that I ask if my interest in them should be pursued in a blunt and direct manner and they run and hide behind the shield of friends? Why is it so hard!


Most men will want to make the first move. They might feel threatened otherwise. Personally, it doesn't bother me if a woman is the first to indicate interest. I have continued on with a couple of them, but I have also rejected most of them simply because I was really not attracted to them. I don't use the let's be friends thing either, I say it straight: Thanks, but I am not attracted to you. And if they ask why, I refuse to give any sort of answer. It is by far the quickest way for them to move on, with the least amount of pain.

Let's be friends can also mean that they want you to beg. You know, to become a booty call. The idea is that the one who wants the relationship less has the power.


I personally hate the F word, when it is used by either sex as a form of rejection or manipulation. As many women as I have been dating or trying to date in the past year, of course I have heard it from a few of them. I assume that most people would say "OK", and then never contact each other again. I think this behaviour is ridiculous. I tell them thanks, but no thanks, I'm not interested in being "friends". I've already got friends. One really can have too many friends. When I call someone a friend, it means that I would do almost anything for them, and I expect the same. If this is violated, then the friendship is broken. There are no varying degrees of friendship with me. I have a lot of acquaintances with whom I am friendly, and for whom I would do a little something if they asked me, but they are not my friends. If I use the friend word, it indicates a very deep amount of respect and caring. I don't use it lightly.

[Valielen]

I can notice most flirting in regards to others... It takes me a little longer if to notice anyone flirting with me if it's not obvious. I think it could be because I don't expect it or want it.

Example of non obvious flirting: Once in the post office this guy told me he needed a contact number in case anything happened to the package. He was asking me a load of questions about where I was from and where I lived etc etc... It wasn't until I left that I realized the bastard had got my phone number... My emotions went from feeling flattered through feeling annoyed at being too stupid to notice ending in triumph as he would never be able to contact me since I gave him my parents number as I live away now.

Obvious flirting: Sitting in train, guy at the opposite end of carriage looks you straight in the eye and smiles openly.

With friends, I can notice the slightlest change in body language towards them. With my boyfriend I amuse myself at seeing how awkward he goes when other girls and a lot of guys flirt with him. He dismisses it by being really silly.


I personally hate the F word, when it is used by either sex as a form of rejection or manipulation. As many women as I have been dating or trying to date in the past year, of course I have heard it from a few of them. I assume that most people would say "OK", and then never contact each other again. I think this behaviour is ridiculous. I tell them thanks, but no thanks, I'm not interested in being "friends". I've already got friends. One really can have too many friends. When I call someone a friend, it means that I would do almost anything for them, and I expect the same. If this is violated, then the friendship is broken. There are no varying degrees of friendship with me. I have a lot of acquaintances with whom I am friendly, and for whom I would do a little something if they asked me, but they are not my friends. If I use the friend word, it indicates a very deep amount of respect and caring. I don't use it lightly.

Apart from the dating women bit, I identify with this. I do not have many friends but I know the ones I have are excellent. I rather spend my time maintaining a quality relationship with these than spend shallow time with lots of people who are just friendly.

This quote from a portuguese poet has been what I identify myself with for a long time:

"Eu não sou boa nem quero sê-lo, contento-me em desprezar quase todos, odiar alguns, estimar raros e amar um"
Florbela Espanca

I'm not good and I don't want to be so, I'm content in ignoring almost everyone, hate a few, cherish some rare ones and love only one.

[Pink]

Most men will want to make the first move. They might feel threatened otherwise. Personally, it doesn't bother me if a woman is the first to indicate interest. I have continued on with a couple of them, but I have also rejected most of them simply because I was really not attracted to them. I don't use the let's be friends thing either, I say it straight: Thanks, but I am not attracted to you. And if they ask why, I refuse to give any sort of answer. It is by far the quickest way for them to move on, with the least amount of pain.

Let's be friends can also mean that they want you to beg. You know, to become a booty call. The idea is that the one who wants the relationship less has the power.


I personally hate the F word, when it is used by either sex as a form of rejection or manipulation. As many women as I have been dating or trying to date in the past year, of course I have heard it from a few of them. I assume that most people would say "OK", and then never contact each other again. I think this behaviour is ridiculous. I tell them thanks, but no thanks, I'm not interested in being "friends". I've already got friends. One really can have too many friends. When I call someone a friend, it means that I would do almost anything for them, and I expect the same. If this is violated, then the friendship is broken. There are no varying degrees of friendship with me. I have a lot of acquaintances with whom I am friendly, and for whom I would do a little something if they asked me, but they are not my friends. If I use the friend word, it indicates a very deep amount of respect and caring. I don't use it lightly.
Well said. I too share the same sentiment when it comes to friends. It is not a term I use lightly either. Me, being blunt and direct in my approach with this man, I assumed this may have made him feel threatened. Long story short he flirted with me for a few weeks, displaying definite interest and when I grew tired of beating around the bush, I believe he choked and coughed out "let's be good friends". Either way, when that was said I moved on, but I was left wanting to understand the behavior.

[Kellie]

The Definitive Book of Body Language by Allan and Barbara Pease

Should be a must read for all INTJs! The section on flirting is broken down nicely.

[Prunesquallor]

The Definitive Book of Body Language by Allan and Barbara Pease

Should be a must read for all INTJs! The section on flirting is broken down nicely.

I read that. It was incredibly irritating. I kept thinking all sorts of insulting things about the authors and humanity in general. But it explained a few of the reasons people consistently misunderstand me. Which pissed me off, but still...

[Kellie]

Cute Lenore picture

[KPrincess91]

hi all!
flirting? i don't like it. when someone flirts me, i want to escape. but when they stop flirting me, i feel very sad. i don't know why.

[alphawolf]

hi all!
flirting? i don't like it. when someone flirts me, i want to escape. but when they stop flirting me, i feel very sad. i don't know why.

You want affection, and to be desired, but you don't feel worthy of it.

Now, go to the mirror and stay there for half an hour. There is some damned interesting artwork waiting there, and admission is free.

[Ermisenda]

I recognize it most of the time although sometimes I just think that there being overly nice. I enjoy flirting with certain people, I have on several occasions prompted the flirting just to have some fun.

[Jinxu]

I go by the belief that if a guy and girl is talking and if they aren't casual friends and if one or both is attractive, then there is a high probability it is flirting.