The need to alter INTJ traits to pursue romantic relationships.

[MissDistant]

I apologize if this is has been discussed already. I searched for a similar topic and didn’t find much.

For those of us that occasionally venture beyond our bubble of introverted self-containment into the dating world, do you make an effort to modify your natural inclination toward appearing aloof (unfriendly, antisocial...) in an effort to attract a partner (maintain a partnership)? Or, is solitude preferable to such concessions? If your choice is the latter, was it through life experience or just an inherent preference that produced such a mindset?

For example: I will never be emotionally demonstrative or ‘clingy’. However, I have been making an effort lately to be more approachable and establish connections. Not only with men, but people in general. Hasn’t worked, but I am not quite ready to surrender to absolute solitude, tempting as it is.

So, any experience in successfully expanding the INTJ personality to perhaps appeal to, and cooperate with the normal folks? I am referring to a more permanent change here, not a superficial act as a means to an end.

As for an introduction: My name’s Amanda, I live in Oregon, I study Nutrigenomics (how nutrition influences gene expression.), I am thrilled (ugh, emotion) to have found this forum, and I am not a Grammar Nazi or a genius.

[sriv]

I need to memorize this so I do not have to keep going back for it. I posted this in another forum...

"I try to make a few good friends wherever I go.

Types of people I interact with-

1. Knowledge carriers - people that have knowledge and are willing to teach me. often they end up lecturing me, the pupil. I love learning.
2. Interesting people - people that I find have unconventional traits/interests. I like to see their perspective on things.
3. Time-killers - people that I talk to for the purpose of killing time, practicing social skills (small talk, keeping a conversation going, etc.), and look like I am socializing. this often leads to people considering me more approachable. I have added this to my list only recently and my social life has dramatically improved.
4. Obligation - everyone else that I am obligated to talk to, whether they strike a conversation with me and I do not want to be awkward, or members of my family who I develop strong relationships with that do not belong to other categories.

These are ways that I am not a loner. You may consider these techniques selfish, I find them very workable and applicable to life."

I have not yet tried to find a partner, but I plan to look so I may have to add that to my list. I would be incredibly offended if you called this well thought out technique superficial. Not really, but I do try to maintain relationships because I am too nice to cut them.

[NoahAddle]

Hi Amanda - Welcome to the forum! As to your post, I sometimes wonder about the same things myself. In fact, I'm trying to figure out how to expand beyond my INTJness as well. Something that I think has been helpful to me is in just trying to become more aware of how other people approach life and striving to communicate with them on that level. I think that's how strong connections between people are ultimately made, because both people are interacting on the same level. As I'm sure you're well aware, some people just don't care all that much about logic or getting the right answer, but instead are more about feeling good and having fun. Those people are going to have a really hard time reaching us on OUR level, so if we want to connect with them then we have to be willing to interact with them on their level. If that means shooting the bull, cracking jokes, making small talk, smiling, etc., then so be it. Anyway, that's my $0.02.

[PRBori]

Welcome to the group!!!

I can be two in one. At my work I tend to be extrovert around those people I know or I have to deal with on a daily basis. However, on my personal life I'm a hermit. So to deal with the hermit behavior I join a few meetup groups. For example I love hiking but will not dare to go hiking alone because you never know what can happen, so I joined a hiking group, and when there are events of interest I go, meet a few people, spend the day with them and then go home. Outside of that outing there is no contact until the next time.

I found that one great way. I still have my privacy because I'm not in touch with the members on a daily basis or even weekly basis, but I spend time with them on a few occasions and enjoy myself.

Dating wise, I kind of gave up on that. I show no emotions nor do I look for people. If anyone is interested they will need to take the first step. Right now I'm talking to someone for over a year...long distance too but I'm OK with the arrangement, after all I have no issues being alone most of the time.

Career Wise, I tend to select people who are in my field for networking; however, they are people that I find in conferences or events related to my field, not outsiders. Networking is the key to success... and those I do tend to keep closer than regular people.

All in all it depends on the situation. I can get alone with most people, but that doesn't mean I let anyone in my personal life. I tend to keep my personal life a lonely one or just for family.

[Parallel]

Though I am an INTJ, I feel like a half/half. I have extroverted tendencies..I love having frivolous fun with random people who are funny (usually ENFPs and ENFJs) and if I find myself really attracted to a guy I'm usually the aggressive pursuer (but then the INTJ comes out and runs in the other direction when he gives in to the pursuit).

As an INTJ, I do realize that my natural tendencies are to be aloof, not to care if I come off as unfriendly, and just come off as bitchy in general but I find it easy to pretend to be an extrovert in situations if I want to because I look at other I's and even get creeped out myself when they are too inwardly focused and self-conscious. And I'd rather let myself go even if it might scare me a little than be creepy.

To make a permanent change you really have to learn to enjoy connecting with random people and it doesn't mean you have to give in and try and force yourself to be an E. Just be genuinely interested in people and be confident in who you are, even if you aren't the most flirtatious girl in the room and people will naturally be attracted to you.

[Gabrielle]

I've dated a few guys, and I never conscientiously attempted to change myself. I personally don't believe that we are people-haters or anything... it's just that we tend to be selective over who to hang out with. I want them to like me for who I am, and being social isn't me.

Hope this answers your question.

[Homini Lupus]

I don't change too much my "INTJ" attitude because I prefer to be honest. My message to women when i "flirt" is <I am what I am, you aren't going to change me. If you are still interested, perhaps we can have a deal.>. Notice that I'm also one of those introverted who can look like extroverted and assertive, so I'm not sure I'm a good example for the sake of that question.

Anyway had no luck since now. Never dated.

[curiousjane]

NoahAddle said: <<"Something that I think has been helpful to me is in just trying to become more aware of how other people approach life and striving to communicate with them on that level. I think that's how strong connections between people are ultimately made, because both people are interacting on the same level.">>

I couldn't agree more!

I think it is very important to be true to yourself and honest about your needs/wants/desires. But this can get out of control. Sometimes you needs/wants/desires aren't actually what is best for you.

It seems dangerous to me to use personality type as a crutch or excuse for never changing. Yes, your tendency may be to one extreme or another (hermit vs. social butterfly, for example), but neither one or the other is ideal at all times. Balance is key.

I might want to stand up in the middle of my cubicle and scream at the top of my lungs into the aggravating white noise and shake up the silence right now (actually that sounds like a great idea!), but, well, I won't. Because that would be ... odd ... and unpleasant for everyone around me. I could tell my boss that I felt a strong urge to express myself, and that I was frustrated by an external environment that was counter to my internal value system (INFP here, remember). According to MBTI, that is my driving force ... to operate according to my own values. If I don't, I feel lost and frustrated. All of this is very true.

Do I often feel lost and frustrated? Sure! That describes me pretty well, on bad days. I get the distinct impression, however, that I would be banned from this forum if I released that on all of my new INTJ friends here! (If I feel particularly lost, I can always head over to the INFP forum, let it out, and get lots of smiley hugs as encouragement.)
Actually, one of the main reasons I decided to join this forum community was to bolster my rational side and learn how to communicate better with you guys.

My point is: I think you're on the right track. It isn't being dishonest to attempt to better yourself and reach out to other people in a way that they can relate to.

After all, isn't that the best application of MBTI? To communicate?

It's like you were attracted to, say, someone from France, or China, or Kenya. And they didn't speak English. It wouldn't be a concession on your part to learn French, or Mandarin, or Swahilii in order to communicate with that person. It would simply create a more conducive method for interaction. Plus, you will have learned a new skill ... one that could help in many ways ... travel ... business ... etc.

In the same way, it is beneficial to improve upon both our strengths and weaknesses (or what others perceive as weaknesses, even if I consider them strengths. For me, this is my tendency to listen to my own feelings/values above all else; for you, it might be to temper your aloofness). Especially if it helps us communicate with others in their own "language"!

That's why I find MBTI so fascinating. I can read up on how other people operate, digest how they process information and make life choices, figure out the best way to interact with them in a way that avoids miscommunication as much as possible.

Hope this makes sense. I'm typing it in between working on a project at the office ...

[bebegirl]

When I was dating I found that the easiest way to get along with people was to ask them questions and get them talking about themself...that way I was appearing to be friendly and interested, but not sharing anything important about myself until I was ready.

I think one of the most interesting things about finding out/undersstanding my own personality was trying to understand where other personalities are coming from...I have spent a lot of my adult life with few relationships and I have no problem being alone, but it's certainly nice to have fun and a few good friends to get through the bumps with.

And I would have to say my husband is my best friend, so I hope you will give romantic relationships a chance because if you find someone who understands and supports you, it makes everything else so easy. Good luck with everything!!

[juchestyle]

I think a lot about this topic. And I feel like the only answer is to change on some level. Not sure what to do about it though. That is why I finally found this site, and I am thinking that the answer is to find another INTJ, but we are rare and in between so again, I don't know what to do.

[blueback]

Don't think of it as changing yourself so much as expressing yourself. If you legitimately don't care what other people think then you should be able to express anything about yourself you want and not care about their reactions.

I think you should accept (maybe you already have) that as an INTJ female you are probably going to have a hard time finding a guy who is attracted to your particular qualities. At least, you will if you keep them to yourself. The sort of guy who is looking for a girl like you is VERY aware of what he's looking for because he's not finding it in the general population. Therefore, you need to get your personality out there in public so that the guys who are looking for it can see it. There's always someone looking to buy what you're selling, you just have to find them. You won't find them and they won't find you if you don't advertise.

[Sylvanus]

Welcome Amanda!

I never have been successful in relationships where I tried to change who I was in order to attract the other person. It's not worth it trying to fake it for any length of time.

The only long term relationship I've ever been in was when an ENFJ approached me in a quasi-social situation. She was very forward, and if it were up to me the relationship would have died in its infancy. But she was interested in me so the relationship has lasted. Many times I have had to change myself in order to fit what others expected of me. Every time I've done it, they expect it again in the future. That's a bad precedent.

[Firelie]

Yay, more Oregonians!

Sorry, I don't have much else to say that could answer your question...I'm not in the extreme spectrum of INTJ and I grew up with an ENFP mother, so I've kinda learned to blend into normal society for the most part.

I don't know about changing your personality in order to be more attractive to other people...after all, there ARE people out there who are interested in relationships with "non-normal" people.

[HappyMondays]

Well, I married years ago and I began to make an effort to be more social a few years into the marriage.

I'm not sure if marriage is tough for INTJs or if I lived the type of life, long enough, to just not be the husband most women want. In many ways, I think married life suits an INTJ. A lot of the B/S goes away and you begin to live very practical lives. In other ways, it doesn't fit. You have a constant companion that has emotional needs you can't sense or just don't appreciate in value. Plus, if her personality really grinds against the INTJ (say, for example, if you married before you really took perosnality tests and learned about yourself), you can be in for bumpy roads. Imagine being in a longterm relationship with a completely irrational person. It's tough.

I think it's important to really explore your personality and to make sure the things that irritate most INTJs (and there are helpful lists that will have you yell, "Yes!" at the list) are marginal in any partner/spouse. Failing to do it means you have to swallow your tongue for the sake of peace.

[Sylvanus]

Hooray for Oregonians!

[MissDistant]

Why can't we just talk, fuck and go back to our projects? (he said jokingly, with a blank stare)

;D

Wow, I appreciate all the great responses from everyone!

[Mafiaangel180]

Hi Amanda, I'm going to say (though it's just my opinion) that most people (regardless of type) alter their traits in the pursuit of romance -- especially in the beginning. It's that time when people who usually aren't touchy-feely go a little out of their way to do so, or maybe the call everyday, or open car doors, perhaps they tolerate sitting through an opera. Basically it's putting on a face in an effort to please the one they like/love. But all of that isn't really easy to maintain, and as soon as it stops....the significant other is like....."wow...he doesn't want to hang out as much??? what did I do wrong???" (or something of that nature.) Enter drama.

[creativeRhino]

Hi Amanda, I'm going to say (though it's just my opinion) that most people (regardless of type) alter their traits in the pursuit of romance -- especially in the beginning. It's that time when people who usually aren't touchy-feely go a little out of their way to do so, or maybe the call everyday, or open car doors, perhaps they tolerate sitting through an opera. Basically it's putting on a face in an effort to please the one they like/love. But all of that isn't really easy to maintain, and as soon as it stops....the significant other is like....."wow...he doesn't want to hang out as much??? what did I do wrong???" (or something of that nature.) Enter drama.

hehehehe very valid.

I'm an oldie (late 40s) who has had 2 major couplings. First ended in divorce I think was an ExxJ, my second (who died) definitely was an ENTJ.

Now I am out dating again (arrrgh) and I am really trying to really be myself. With my late husband we could, after a bit of "discussion", give each other space and also accommodation (ie joining in activities for the benefit of the other).

Initially it is wooing doing this being really just to please. Then comes the more serious thing of making it ongoing.

I've just extricated myself from a relationship with an ISTJ. eeek. Very rigid role expectations and perfectionistic stuff. I foolishly tried to measure up just a bit. Didn't work. Yet he wouldn't budge one inch.

That sort of accommodation that is a one-sided expectation doesn't work. For the one trying to meet expectations it feels like jumping through hoops.

My best friends in real life are INTJs - 4 males (gay or otherwise unavailable) and female INTJ. 2 of the males are married, the others are single. My female friend is single "as it was all too hard" to do the dating thing.

So I will try a bit more, but not be so willing to try and fit in to what the other wants, but to try to communicate where I am coming from. (Kind of like an MBTI of "love languages") That worked with my late hubby and helped build a really strong relationship.

So maybe, as far as I can see, the trick is to be explicit about how you show your love/affection because it doesn't seem obvious to others. Therefore it is more a matter of communication rather than "changing" oneself.

[Mafiaangel180]

So maybe, as far as I can see, the trick is to be explicit about how you show your love/affection because it doesn't seem obvious to others. Therefore it is more a matter of communication rather than "changing" oneself.

Awesome! Very well put!! That is definitely a benefit of learning about types. As well as the different ways each personality type shows love/affection, there are the five languages of love: words of affirmation, quality time, acts of service, physical touch, and receiving gifts. (There is what we prefer to have done to us and what we do for other people...and it might not mesh well with what the other person is into.)

[RedOwen333]

Hi Amanda, I'm Owen, also recently joined, glad that someone asked this question as it is a challenge I have also faced. Some good comments so far.

When it comes to meeting people, I have recently discovered an approach that really works for me, which centres around how much self-respect I have. Literally, the more love I am able to feel for myself the better I am able to communicate with others. Since we INTJ's have a good sense of what is just and fair, we do well by others when we do reach out to them.

The effect is exponential, so self love leads to calmness, which leads to good communication, which leads to befriending the right people and avoiding the wrong ones, which leads to self love, and so on.......

Now you may be skeptical about people who have a bit too much self-love - we've all suffered a few of those in our time lets face it, so bear with me a moment. Jean Jacques Rousseau, the famous social theorist said:

'Egoism must not be confused with self-respect: for they differ both in themselves and in their effects'

Rousseau drew a difference between 'amour de soi' which is a positive self love, and 'amour propre' which we understand as narcissism or pride, and said that people in modern society are not always able to recognise which is which, even in themselves.

To develop this idea further, I see both these traits being 'active' qualities, so the corresponsing 'passive' quality of self respect is humility, wheras the corresponding 'passive' quality for pride is self disgust.

Good luck and I hope you find what works for you!

[Capt57]

If I was my true self I would never get laid. I mean, I am willing to completely dismantle my personality if it means sex. I will smile at you, I will laugh with you, I will listen to talk about Astrology...gazing intently into your eyes and nodding my head. I will play the part and play it very well. I will sit with you and laugh at your sitcoms and swoon to your music. I will do all this in hopes of getting some action. I will butcher my personality type leaving it mangled and bloody on the floor. But like a cheata, I can only maintain this speed over short distances. Once I make a kill or two or three I'm gone! My ability to walk away and disappear is so awesome it could be a super power! Now, if I really like you, both physically and intellectually...I will marry you on the spot so rare is this event.

[Storm]

I have recently discovered that a great way to appear more friendly (and thus more approachable) without compromising your idenity is to observe those little rituals INTJs tend to ignore. I didn't even realize that I often neglected these rituals until recently.

For instance, I started always saying hi and asking people how their day went, even when I didn't feel like it (like when asking the secretary to do something for me, when I see somebody I know on the street). Surprise, surprise, people started inviting me places more etc.

[MissDistant]

I will smile at you, I will laugh with you, I will listen to talk about Astrology...gazing intently into your eyes and nodding my head. I will play the part and play it very well.

Yes, although I was not motivated by sex, I have done this as well, and broke some hearts in the process. My conscience seems to have caught up with me and I no longer care to feign sincerity. ugh, I'm such a repressed, closet 'F'.

[errrzarrr]

I have recently discovered that a great way to appear more friendly (and thus more approachable) without compromising your idenity is to observe those little rituals INTJs tend to ignore. I didn't even realize that I often neglected these rituals until recently.

For instance, I started always saying hi and asking people how their day went, even when I didn't feel like it (like when asking the secretary to do something for me, when I see somebody I know on the street). Surprise, surprise, people started inviting me places more etc.

Tell us those little secrets you noticed to improve!

Hey!, welcome to the Forum Amanda and RedOwen

[escapist11]

Interesting conversation in here...
I'm so glad I found this forum yesterday.
It makes me slightly happier (<--emotions?) to know that I am NOT a freak for wanting to spend time alone most of the time, for not wanting to date/get married...for readily admitting that I enjoy doing calculus homework. Supposedly that stuff makes ME the freak on the floor. Most times I want to say to people, "And what is YOUR major?"

Nobody understands me!!!
jk

[RedOwen333]

Thanks Errrzarrr. I would suggest those little secrets are anything which says to the other person 'I want to hear your opinion/feeling/experience of__________'. But crucially, as a general rule, the less you know someone, the more general should your enquiries be. A common INTJ mistake is to ask a really probing question of someone who they don't know well, or in a setting where they don't feel safe in answering (Work being the main example). Generally the formula should be to build the relationship with small talk and then start asking more specific questions if you are getting along. INTJs interact with WHAT they say, but most peopkle interact with HOW they say it!





RedOwen333 added to this post, 4 minutes and 53 seconds later...

MissDistant and Escapist11, it appears INTJ women are good-looking. Shame they don't go out to bars...........what am I saying - neither do I :-)

[Sylvanus]

MissDistant and Escapist11, it appears INTJ women are good-looking. Shame they don't go out to bars...........what am I saying - neither do I :-)

This is where INTJ women go to meet men, internet forums!:suspicious::rolleyes:

[TheLastMohican]

This is where INTJ women go to meet men, internet forums!:suspicious::rolleyes:

Aha! I knew it! People always have ulterior motives...

[Sylvanus]

Aha! I knew it! People always have ulterior motives...

Although I hear that INTJ's in relationships together don't last long. Of course, if I was single I'd be willing to risk it.