Transsexual orientation?

[tooboku]

A brief thought came to mind today.

Just because an individual is transvestite or a crossdresser, it does not necessarily mean that the person in question is a homosexual.

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Now, a transvestite and a transsexual are not the same thing. While a transvestite merely tried to put on the illusion of being a member of the other sex, a transsexual is an individual who goes all the way; utilizing a transgender operation.

The question is:

If a homosexual undergoes a transgender operation, is that person still a homosexual?

[Silverity]

If they identify with gender X and are attracted to gender X, then yes. If they identify as gender Y and are attracted to gender X, then no.

I think.

[tooboku]

You say gender.

For the purpose of this discussion, let's say there is a difference between gender and sex.

While sex refers to actual physical charactaristics that define male and female in a purely physical sense, let's define gender as a social construct.

EDIT: Let's define homosexuality as a person's prefence towards sexual or romantic activity with someone of the same sex and not necessarily the same gender.

[Silverity]

You say gender.

For the purpose of this discussion, let's say there is a difference between gender and sex.

While sex refers to actual physical charactaristics that define male and female in a purely physical sense, let's define gender as a social construct.

Yes I know, but your sex doesn't really matter, does it? I mean, if someone is sexually male, but believes they are female, and likes women, they would call themselves a lesbian. So I'm disregarding sex entirely.

Edit: I realize I'm making a bit of a generalization there, and maybe not EVERY person who felt gender X and was attracted to gender X would make a statement like that.

[Still Standing]

If a homosexual undergoes a transgender operation, is that person still a homosexual?

If a homosexual undergoes a transgender operation, they where never a homosexual to begin with, but a transsexual (i.e. they were attracted to the opposite sex in their mind, given that they never really owned the gender they were born with.)

[tooboku]

Ah. Sex does not exist.

Then that makes it simple.

[Silverity]

Ah. Sex does not exist.

Then that makes it simple.

Not saying it doesn't exist, just saying that in this particular case I view it to be irrelevant.

[Zombicide]

I'd call myself a lesbian or tranny-dyke if it were that simple but I'm not attracted to people for their gender per se so much as their (feminine) physiognomy and genteel temperament.

One would be just as much a homosexual after they ... waste their cock structure as they were before doing so. Male and female referring to the gamete fertility system one is of, they can't change the classification of their orientation by cutting off their dick.

[tooboku]

I'd call myself a lesbian or tranny-dyke if it were that simple but I'm not attracted to people for their gender per se so much as their (feminine) physiognomy and genteel temperament.

One would be just as much a homosexual after they ... waste their cock structure as they were before doing so. Male and female referring to the gamete fertility system one is of, they can't change the classification of their orientation by cutting off their dick.

This was also my opinion before starting the topic. There are so many more intricacies to sex than merely digging a hole or building a pole. Biochemically, they are essentially the same sex they started off as. Hormone therapy can only do so much. Most of the damage has already been done prenatal.

For argument's sake though, say a person were able to actually do it all.

[SShack]

Sexual orientation is completely separate from gender identity. I was close friends with a couple of male-to-female transsexuals back in my early 20s. Pretty much all of them ended up in relationships with women. The were attracted to women when they were living as men, and that didn't change when they changed genders. I know two of them even tried to have relationships with men, but it didn't end of working for them.

[tooboku]

If a homosexual undergoes a transgender operation, they where never a homosexual to begin with, but a transsexual (i.e. they were attracted to the opposite sex in their mind, given that they never really owned the gender they were born with.)

To make a whole new category is a very logical choice. I think that's what the convention is anyway.

[Fox]

A brief thought came to mind today.

The question is:

If a homosexual undergoes a transgender operation, is that person still a homosexual?


I think that was a story line in South Park.

If their legal status changes to their new sex than I guess they are now straight. Genetically they are still their original sex and still gay. In any case I'm confused.

[DanteFalling]

Yes I know, but your sex doesn't really matter, does it? I mean, if someone is sexually male, but believes they are female, and likes women, they would call themselves a lesbian. So I'm disregarding sex entirely.

Edit: I realize I'm making a bit of a generalization there, and maybe not EVERY person who felt gender X and was attracted to gender X would make a statement like that.

Wait. I'm a biological female (sex) and feel more comfortable self-identifying as male (gender). If I'm attracted to males, I'm still not a lesbian by most standards.


This is were the breakdown occurs.
Orientation descriptors as they are now seem inadequate.
Orientation is generally derived using biological sex, not gender.
We compensate by adjunct descriptors such as dom or sub.

[Silverity]

Wait. I'm a biological female (sex) and feel more comfortable self-identifying as male (gender). If I'm attracted to males, I'm still not a lesbian by most standards.


This is were the breakdown occurs.
Orientation descriptors as they are now seem inadequate.
Orientation is generally derived using biological sex, not gender.
We compensate by adjunct descriptors such as dom or sub.

Hm, I was taking this from the perspective of the person, not society as a whole. And my opinion is likely influenced by my area of study (health). If I met you, and you told me you identified as a male and were attracted to men, I'd make the assumption that you were gay, regardless of your biological body.

[mormeguil]

Normally, transexual identify themself as being one gender (and they are also legally reconised as that gender). They will consider they're own attraction from the gender they identify with as a point of view.

So, a male to female transexual that as not completed iit's sexe change still consider herself a female and as such do not view herself as homosexual. Altought she will probably call herself homosexual in public until the sex change is completed (at least as much as possible) for ease of communication.

[Anhedonic Lake]

I think that was a story line in South Park.

If their legal status changes to their new sex than I guess they are now straight. Genetically they are still their original sex and still gay. In any case I'm confused.

I really am concerned by the amount of people who seem to derive their politics from South Park.(Not actually saying you do but that episode tends to enter serious discussions as a reference when ever this topic is raised.) Mr Garrison is'nt a real transsexual,he's severely dissociative-his identity is all over the place. Sadly,that episode strongly implied it's the case for all transsexuals.

---------- Post added 04-07-2010 at 11:42 AM ----------


One would be just as much a homosexual after they ... waste their cock structure as they were before doing so. Male and female referring to the gamete fertility system one is of, they can't change the classification of their orientation by cutting off their dick.

Not the first time I've experienced such judgemental mentalities regarding transsexuals among the gay community,so ironic.... SRS is not genital mutilation,it's genital reconfiguration. Not all trans people go from male to female also. Waste? Define waste? Is this a subjective or objective claim? What of an intersexed person "getting their dick cut off" to match their gender identity,are they still gay or straight? Do you also regard this as a waste? Some posters have argued gay people waste their genetics via their lifestyle.

[Scatterbrane]

they can't change the classification of their orientation by cutting off their dick.

The idea is to link orientation to gender. Gender can persist regardless of the status of your sexual organs, it is perceptual in nature.

Defining orientation (sociological) from biological sex (physiological) is somewhat an odd thing to do, even though that viewpoint is handily intuitive to understand.

[zibber]

People are what they think themselves to be. The only thing that matters is practice.

This kind of thing can be convenient, by the way. Last week I heard of a couple in America consisting of a "male-to-female" transgender who has yet to go through any kind of operation, married to a "biological female". They are in practice a "lesbian" couple, yet the "biological maleness" of one of them allowed them to get married. Ironically enough (for christian conservatives), since marriage is so sacred, the "mtf" can go through with the operation now without jeopardizing the legal status of their marriage.

[AliTree]

oi vey. transexuality is not an orientation.
transexuals undergo surgery to become the opposite sex. they consider themselves the opposite sex and gender. transgenders have not/do not undergo the surgery, but consider themselves the opposite gender.
gender=psychology term
sex=biology/anatomy term

do not confuse them. thank you.

---------- Post added 04-08-2010 at 11:32 PM ----------

Sexual orientation is completely separate from gender identity.

exactly.

[zibber]

oi vey. transexuality is not an orientation.
transexuals undergo surgery to become the opposite sex. they consider themselves the opposite sex and gender. transgenders have not/do not undergo the surgery, but consider themselves the opposite gender.
gender=psychology term
sex=biology/anatomy term

do not confuse them. thank you.


I appreciate the (perhaps somewhat outdated) etymology, but in practice (as well as (queer) theory), "transgender" has become an umbrella term.

[AliTree]

I appreciate the (perhaps somewhat outdated) etymology, but in practice (as well as (queer) theory), "transgender" has become an umbrella term.

an umbrella term, in terms of what?
the OP speaks of transsexuality as an orientation. though, which is what i was addressing.

[tooboku]

an umbrella term, in terms of what?
the OP speaks of transsexuality as an orientation. though, which is what i was addressing.

Bullocks. I most certainly did not, Sir. I appologize if my wording is confusing though.

Someone may have mentioned that "transexual" was an orientation of it's own. I may have entertained that poster but it is not.

The question is, and I repeat:

If a homosexual undergoes transsexual surgery, is that person still a homesexual when the procedure is complete?

Homosexual is defined as a subject who prefers sexual or romantic activity with a fellow member of the subject's sex.

Sex is defined as physical attributes that define male and female.

Gender is a social construct.

[AliTree]

Bullocks. I most certainly did not, Sir. I appologize if my wording is confusing though.

Someone may have mentioned that "transexual" was an orientation of it's own. I may have entertained that poster but it is not.

The question is, and I repeat:

If a homosexual undergoes transsexual surgery, is that person still a homesexual when the procedure is complete?

Homosexual is defined as a subject who prefers sexual or romantic activity with a fellow member of the subject's sex.

Sex is defined as physical attributes that define male and female.

Gender is a social construct.

alrighty, good good. all is well here then. (and speaking of sex/gender, i'm a ma'am. ha)

[tooboku]

alrighty, good good. all is well here then. (and speaking of sex/gender, i'm a ma'am. ha)

On the grounds of confusing your gender and misspelling "apologize" I offer you my sincere apologies, ma'am.

[AliTree]

On the grounds of confusing your gender and misspelling "apologize" I offer you my sincere apologies, ma'am.

*sex (muahaha)

[tooboku]

Oh, are your sex and gender different?

I was assuming since as an online community, we do not physically exist to each other so all we have to go by are those social constructs. I cannot physically place my hands on you to verify your sex. :P

[AliTree]

Oh, are your sex and gender different?

I was assuming since as an online community, we do not physically exist to each other so all we have to go by are those social constructs. I cannot physically place my hands on you to verify your sex. :P

oh touché sir! then i guess, by the limitations of internet, you can refer to my gender as either. i consider myself androgynous.

[Valiyn]

Usually, the gender we are (not the sex we were born with) determines the orientation. For example, I would be a lesbian even though I'm still fairly early on in the process. Even if I was to stop the transformation for lack of funds or whatever, and stay physically male, it would still be based off the female gender. A transsexual is someone who wants to be identified as another gender then their sex, so atleast out of respect you identify them by their desired gender even if they haven't began the transformation yet.

[tooboku]

People are what they think themselves to be. The only thing that matters is practice.

This kind of thing can be convenient, by the way. Last week I heard of a couple in America consisting of a "male-to-female" transgender who has yet to go through any kind of operation, married to a "biological female". They are in practice a "lesbian" couple, yet the "biological maleness" of one of them allowed them to get married. Ironically enough (for christian conservatives), since marriage is so sacred, the "mtf" can go through with the operation now without jeopardizing the legal status of their marriage.


Please clarify.

A transvestite is a person who puts on a superficial illusion of being a member of the opposite sex. A man wearing a dress is a transvestite or a crossdresser. He is not necessarily gay.

A transsexual is an individual who has gone through an operation to replace that individual's genitalia with that of the opposite sex.


In this case, the biological man married to the woman is a transvestite. He is not homosexual as his preference is obviously towards his wife who is a biological female.

The question is: after he goes through the sex change operation, will he become a lesbian?

[Valiyn]

Please clarify.

The cases being refered to is because a few states recognize gender on the bases of chromosomes. So while it will allow a MTF to marry a female, it's a double sided sword as any with abnormal chromosomes (and gender disorders make up 1% of the entire population) can have their marriages invalidated by the state dispite being biologically, medically, born, and believed to be whatever gender. For example, it's estimated roughly every 1 in 2000? to 1 in 13000 [1]females you run across actually have a Y chromosome and are legally male without ever knowing it (and because same-sex marriage isn't allowed, the state is forced to dissolve those marriages if challenged in court - like a medical malpractice suite). But because the laws are like that, MtF can marry females, and FtM can marry males. Thus, legal examples of same sex marriages allowed in the US presently.

A transvestite is a person who puts on a superficial illusion of being a member of the opposite sex. A man wearing a dress is a transvestite or a crossdresser. He is not necessarily gay.

A transsexual is an individual who has gone through an operation to replace that individual's genitalia with that of the opposite sex.A transsexual is someone who wants to be identified as the other sex. No operation or hormones required, not all can afford it and not all are in a social position to. A transsexual is a person who has a psychological need to identify as their non-biologically assigned gender. If a person can only afford to do that privately at home via cross dressing, they are still a transsexual (so the two terms do overlap to a degree). It's based in the idea of subconscious sex, in that the brain is expecting or contains genetic instinct of gender-based organs to be present when they are not.

[1] Can't quite find the original source, but this backs up the numbers.
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[mormeguil]

If a homosexual undergoes transsexual surgery, is that person still a homesexual when the procedure is complete?

Homosexual is defined as a subject who prefers sexual or romantic activity with a fellow member of the subject's sex.

Sex is defined as physical attributes that define male and female.

Gender is a social construct.

If you decided that : "Homosexual is defined as a subject who prefers sexual or romantic activity with a fellow member of the subject's sex." then it depends if you refer to the physical sexe as the genetic one or the physical attribute (penis vs vagina).

The real problem is that people do not agree on wich one is the most important one. Some believe that the genes are important other the physicals attriute.

Also some people define that homosexuality is "subject who prefers sexual or romantic activity with a fellow member of the subject's gender".

The definition you have given are as good as any other so if we do go by your definitions then an homosexual male that receive a transgender operation will become a straight femal IF you consider the physical attributes as the definitive way to determine gender. If you think it's gene then he will still be a homosexual male with a female gender identity.

If you ask the peron herself she will say that she is a straight female.

[ripe]

IF you consider the physical attributes as the definitive way to determine gender. If you think it's gene then he will still be a homosexual male with a female gender identity.

This depends on your feelings. If you like this or not. So you will go by what fits your emotions and rationalize this way or that by 'known knowledge' as above. This is true for 99% of the population.

Of course in reality it's silly to consider homosexuality/straight sexuality regarding transgendered individuals. They break this system apart. *theclap*

[LifesEcstasy]

My question is not directly related to this topic but is subordinately related so can I play? I just don't think my Q warrants an entire thread of it's own. So I am polite I will add to this discussion first though.

An acquaintance of mine was born male and was attracted to females. He underwent a transgender transformation including "the snip" and is now living as a lesbian female. His gender changed but his orientation did not. I personally think he was a lesbian born in a male body.

Now to my Q. I know of a person who is male, identifies as male yet engages in feminine behaviour. Specifically he wears makeup on a daily basis in exactly the same way a woman wears makeup. We are talking foundation, eyeshadow, mascara the lot. It's not the same makeup a drag queen would wear, he is not attempting to conceal his gender, he appears how a man would if a woman did his makeup. Otherwise he dresses as a man, has a male hairstyle, does not shape his eyebrows etc and I see no other crossdressing attributes. I have limited ability to observe this person so I can't gauge his orientation.

Most people take one look and say "OMG of course he's gay!" but I tend to think they are prejudiced in their assessment because of the makeup alone. Is this person just a non-conforming type or is he obviously homosexual?

[ripe]

identifies as male
Does this person identify as a man? And how do you know the identification as a male? Not that I think that says much. Probably only means the person in question have observed they have a penis.

Besides of that makeup is cultural dependent. If this is a tribe in Africa it may be normal, since in some tribes it is the males that do the makeup. Trough time this also changes. Right now in western culture it's females that do so. This is changing now. In new generations it's more balanced.

The most gay thing in these contexts a man can do is to shave his beard, since this is the most drastic thing you can do to resemble a woman(by first look) , and it's physical alteration(mutilation?). But personally even this behavior is probably also cultural dependent, and not indicative of gayness. I find it hilarious when such people think a male that do makeup may be gay.

[LifesEcstasy]

Does this person identify as a man? And how do you know the identification as a male?

Ok I need to clarify myself. From my observation he wears male fashion (ie is not dressing as a female). He also does not (from my observation) have feminine mannerisms. Even though his face could easily pass for being female (he appears highly androgynous) and could do so even without makeup, my first impression of him was male. I had no doubt at a first glance that I was looking at a man. I compare this to other instances where I have genuinely mistaken a man for a woman at a first glance.

Although I have not personally sighted the required equipment to be 100% sure he is a man. I am as sure about his gender by looking at him as I would be if I saw Pierce Brosnan. As to whether he personally identifies himself as being male I have no idea. So I have no knowledge of the reason for the makeup other than my assumption he just likes wearing makeup.

The ethnicity is asian.

I also think it's stupid to label someone as homosexual based upon one non-conforming attribute, in this instance the makeup. Which is why I asked and wanted to know if indeed I was the only one ascribing his originality to something other than his sexuality.

[Still Standing]

I know of a person who is male, identifies as male yet engages in feminine behaviour. Specifically he wears makeup on a daily basis in exactly the same way a woman wears makeup. We are talking foundation, eyeshadow, mascara the lot. It's not the same makeup a drag queen would wear, he is not attempting to conceal his gender, he appears how a man would if a woman did his makeup. Otherwise he dresses as a man, has a male hairstyle, does not shape his eyebrows etc and I see no other crossdressing attributes. I have limited ability to observe this person so I can't gauge his orientation.

Most people take one look and say "OMG of course he's gay!" but I tend to think they are prejudiced in their assessment because of the makeup alone. Is this person just a non-conforming type or is he obviously homosexual?

Not enough details given to really know, but could he be a metrosexual? (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

[tooboku]

Now to my Q. I know of a person who is male, identifies as male yet engages in feminine behaviour. Specifically he wears makeup on a daily basis in exactly the same way a woman wears makeup. We are talking foundation, eyeshadow, mascara the lot. It's not the same makeup a drag queen would wear, he is not attempting to conceal his gender, he appears how a man would if a woman did his makeup. Otherwise he dresses as a man, has a male hairstyle, does not shape his eyebrows etc and I see no other crossdressing attributes. I have limited ability to observe this person so I can't gauge his orientation.

Most people take one look and say "OMG of course he's gay!" but I tend to think they are prejudiced in their assessment because of the makeup alone. Is this person just a non-conforming type or is he obviously homosexual?

Ah, thank you for the reply. That was actually one of the more useful posts.

As per your friend, he is not homosexual unless he displays a sexual interest in other males. Even if he wore a dress, he wouldn't be considered homosexual. Makeup may also be a necessity. I had a friend growing up once who had a heart condition. He's gone now but he used to wear makeup all the time. He was actually a very successful Mary Kay rep. He also wore makeup every day because his condition left him rather pale.

[zibber]

Please clarify.

A transvestite is a person who puts on a superficial illusion of being a member of the opposite sex. A man wearing a dress is a transvestite or a crossdresser. He is not necessarily gay.

A transsexual is an individual who has gone through an operation to replace that individual's genitalia with that of the opposite sex.

In this case, the biological man married to the woman is a transvestite. He is not homosexual as his preference is obviously towards his wife who is a biological female.

The question is: after he goes through the sex change operation, will he become a lesbian?

She has a penis but is a lesbian woman. Her penis has allowed her to marry the "biological" woman she loves.

[Anhedonic Lake]

Gender is a social construct.

I've heard a few people say this and I just can't understand the rationale behind it. I'm not saying gender is 100% innate but most of the evidence points to it being primarily so. I mean just look at the animal kingdom and observe women and men in everyday life. Women tend to think differently to men and process information differently due to hormones and brain sex.
It's just so obvious.

And the case of David Reimer imploded on a scientist who hoped to prove gender was a social construct,with lethal effects.


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[Cisco Skywalker]

I've heard a few people say this and I just can't understand the rationale behind it. I'm not saying gender is 100% innate but most of the evidence points to it being primarily so. I mean just look at the animal kingdom and observe women and men in everyday life. Women tend to think differently to men and process information differently due to hormones and brain sex.
It's just so obvious.

And the case of David Reimer imploded on a scientist who hoped to prove gender was a social construct,with lethal effects.


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I think it has more to do with T/F character type than male/ female. I am a female INTJ and I don't tend to think or process information like any of the women I know. Having said that I don't think I've ever encountered a female INTJ.

[tooboku]

She has a penis but is a lesbian woman. Her penis has allowed her to marry the "biological" woman she loves.

Ah. That's better... do you know if they were married by clergy or another legal official?

... and yes. That makes it very ironic as the argument isn't against whether or not you have a ding-ding. It's about rebellion against what God made you.

I shall stop now as my next phrase will contradict the whole point of starting this thread and to be honest, it's a somewhat entertaining thread.

[Paradox101]

If a homosexual undergoes a transgender operation, is that person still a homosexual?


Lets break it down:

Hetero: Coming from the Greek meaning different

Trans: means across

So if they fully crossed over they would be a they would be a Transheterosexual.

[ArtistTyrant]

my sex is male, my gender is female (though not stereotypical female, more like a strong mythological female/gothic and stuff :p), if you consider me male, based on my sex, than i'm heteroflexible, and if you consider me female, based on my gender, then i'm homoflexible...i don't see how its that complicated, depends on your perspective

[LifesEcstasy]

my sex is male, my gender is female (though not stereotypical female, more like a strong mythological female/gothic and stuff :p), if you consider me male, based on my sex, than i'm heteroflexible, and if you consider me female, based on my gender, then i'm homoflexible...i don't see how its that complicated, depends on your perspective

I'm often accused of being a gay man in a woman's body owing to my sexual preferences. Interestingly I don't identify myself as being inherently female or male beyond the arrangement of my physical body. My physical body appears as stereotypically female, hourglass figure, petite frame with feminine features. So by your theory I would be female by sex, male by gender and homosexual? Not being facetious, genuinely wanting to understand btw.

Although my posts in the Guys Kissing thread would tend to indicate that I am female by gender and heterosexual, unless of course Titian can tempt me with a homosexual fantasy...Lol!

[ArtistTyrant]

i mean that i place more weight on what someone is psychologically than what they are physically, because a persons personality is more who they are than the physical self that they may be encased in...i'm transgender, and i consider myself a girl...ofc a lot of people have problems with that, because my sex isn't female, but w/e O_o and its not a binary thing, the gender binary is the average gender orientation, it doesn't mean that everyone has to be either stereotypically female or stereotypically male

[LifesEcstasy]

i mean that i place more weight on what someone is psychologically than what they are physically, because a persons personality is more who they are than the physical self that they may be encased in...i'm transgender, and i consider myself a girl...ofc a lot of people have problems with that, because my sex isn't female, but w/e O_o and its not a binary thing, the gender binary is the average gender orientation, it doesn't mean that everyone has to be either stereotypically female or stereotypically male

Ok lets put the issue of what the body looks like aside for a moment because I think I'm getting confused a little. So how would you determine if you were psychologically female or not? I have a lot of typically male traits in my personality but I'm not sure I would identify myself as psychologically male. I find it vastly easier to relate to males than females, have very few female friends and have even thought that if I were physically male it wouldn't change my sexual orientation, I would still prefer to date males.

But then at the same time I've never had a problem with the way my body appears. I've always been quite comfortable in it and have never wanted to be the opposite sex.

Sorry a little Off Topic here - I'm tending towards the theory that human sexuality is actually a sliding scale of bisexuality with both homosexuality and heterosexuality being extreme ends of that scale. I would say for myself that the idea of being sexual with a female doesn't irk me but then it doesn't particularly call to me either. And perhaps sexuality has very little to do with the physical body.

[ArtistTyrant]

sounds like you're somewhat androgynous and like males

i know my psychological gender or w/e, because it has been a set of traits/behaviour patterns that has felt right to me, and that i have naturally tried to emulate, for as long as i remember, that tells me just by itself that i'm closer to female than male in terms of gender, without even getting into personal details and sexuality

[LifesEcstasy]

sounds like you're somewhat androgynous and like males

i know my psychological gender or w/e, because it has been a set of traits/behaviour patterns that has felt right to me, and that i have naturally tried to emulate, for as long as i remember, that tells me just by itself that i'm closer to female than male in terms of gender, without even getting into personal details and sexuality

Ok now I understand. Thanks.

[Valiyn]

Going back to ancient Greece I think it was, there have been 5 identified genders. In the east there have been 3 identified genders at least.

Male
Female
Transgender - MtF and FtM
Androgynous
Neither - Eastern societies combine this and the previous into a single category.

[Nikita]

I think that labels of homo- and heterosexuality are for the transsexual person to determine on an individual basis.

[Anhedonic Lake]

my sex is male, my gender is female (though not stereotypical female, more like a strong mythological female/gothic and stuff :p), if you consider me male, based on my sex, than i'm heteroflexible, and if you consider me female, based on my gender, then i'm homoflexible...i don't see how its that complicated, depends on your perspective

I always though a hetroflexible meant a "tranny chaser". You know, "I'm straight but I like girls with cocks!":laugh:

[ArtistTyrant]

since i consider myself a girl, i call myself homoflexible, but its really just an acknowledgment that i'm bisexual, yet have a much stronger preference for females...like 80% female/20% male, in terms of physical attraction, and it seems that i connect on a much deeper level with females emotionally...so the flexible thing is just saying that i like some guys/masculinity/cock, depends on the individual and circumstances O_o

[tooboku]

I tried to pull that off once in an anthropology lecture. I told the prof I was wearing panties and that I like to wear dresses when no one was looking. Then I asked if that meant I was a lesbian. She said I was disturbed but that I was as straight as a line.

[Eye on Earth]

A brief thought came to mind today.

Just because an individual is transvestite or a crossdresser, it does not necessarily mean that the person in question is a homosexual.

Example: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Now, a transvestite and a transsexual are not the same thing. While a transvestite merely tried to put on the illusion of being a member of the other sex, a transsexual is an individual who goes all the way; utilizing a transgender operation.

The question is:

If a homosexual undergoes a transgender operation, is that person still a homosexual?

I propose this - undergo a sex change and see if you still think the same way. My guess is that you will still think the same way, just your body will better reflect who you are. Is that a bad thing?

[Titian]

A lot of this depends on whether there is really a strict standard of male and female in any case. I think all of us are aware that there are males that don't fit the general impression of males, females that are the same, and some people who almost defy any kind of definition. You can find in considering this question both androgynous people and intersex. When you attempt to make a strict standard you really need consistency and there simply isn't 100% consistency involved.

You can observe this if you simply limit the attempt to define these things to the opinions/considerations on an internet forum. We are all inclined to discuss the definition but all equally inclined to decide how we personally understand and would apply the definition. This isn't math.

If you make it math by saying male + male = homosexual then it works out nicely. It's rarely that easy when you're trying to make the two people involved equally and exactly fit the term "male". So you can still hear people say "Oh, he's the man in that relationship." in reference to gay couples even though the basic idea of "gay" requires them to both be a man. I find this humorous.

The question is:

If a homosexual undergoes a transgender operation, is that person still a homosexual?

This depends on whether the resulting state contradicts the conditions of the label. The only thing that is necessary to determine then is whether the subject of a sexual reassignment has successfully transitioned to and should now be categorized with men instead of women or women instead of men. If you agree with this then the answer is "no" and if you don't then the answer is "yes".

[tooboku]

I propose this - undergo a sex change and see if you still think the same way. My guess is that you will still think the same way, just your body will better reflect who you are. Is that a bad thing?

This is a good answer. The operation itself is just cosmetic after all.

Another question... If you are a presumably straight male and you find yourself attracted to female to male transsexuals, does that make you a homosexual?

[Titian]

Another question... If you are a presumably straight male and you find yourself attracted to female to male transsexuals, does that make you a homosexual?

That question prompts another question. If the FtM group is being considered as indistinct from male then it would be contradictory to presume such an individual is straight. What has to be asked is whether you are somehow only attracted to FtM. The only way I can see this as being certain is if you were actually aware that they are transsexuals and this is what you are attracted to rather than their similarity to men now. I don't think you can label that either straight or gay because the reason for attraction would necessarily involve someone whose identity incorporated having been female as well as becoming male. It seems more reasonable to consider a label closer to bisexuality but ultimately will be going to somehow categorize under "transphilia".

[firebee]

It seems more reasonable to consider a label closer to bisexuality but ultimately will be going to somehow categorize under "transphilia".

I'd say that this would fall under the umbrella of pansexuality.

"Straight", "gay", and "bi" are ultimately just labels that convey information. They have a given scope of applicability and are quite useful within that scope, but past a certain point their value begins to break down.

But yeah -- being attracted to a person because they are apparently male exhibits attraction toward men. Being attracted to a person because their appearance contains many masculine features exhibits attraction to masculine features. Being attracted to a person who is trans specifically because they are trans...? That is more complicated.

That said, regardless of the complexity of the underlying attraction, a transman is a man and a transwoman is a woman -- practically, due to their appearance, even if one does not acknowledge the existence of gender identity disorder. A person who is in a relationship with such a person is therefore in a relationship with a man or a woman, respectively, and can expect their relationship to be labeled accordingly by other people.

[Titian]

I'd say that this would fall under the umbrella of pansexuality.

That depends on how exclusive it is. You couldn't call someone a pansexual who was exclusively attracted to female-to-male transsexuals. Otherwise, I completely agree with you.

Figuring out how to label this really only benefits a concern for efficiency in the delivery of information relative to personal preferences. It isn't actually very likely to help with that too often though because using such a concise label additionally requires the target audience to understand the label. I don't imagine the percentage of people who would easily understand what is meant with such an obscure but exact label is much greater than the percentage of people needing to use it for their explanation. It's also unlikely that you'd be able to begin this topic with someone who would actually listen to the explanation and have a brief conversation result.

[tooboku]

I would suppose that it had to do with what the said straight male considered the female to male transsexual. In his mind, he may still think of the transsexual as a biological female. It is still largely just a cosmetic procedure to him, nevermind the psychologial effects, if any it may have on the transsexual.

[Titian]

That brings the question into some very strict terms. If the male thinks of their partner as female then he would be internally consistent in thinking he is straight. It would be a different matter to deal with the reactions of everyone else who would not necessarily understand his internal thinking to be consistent. It's also probably going to pose some problems for that relationship. It's unlikely that a female-to-male transsexual would think of their identity as female after transitioning. They are probably going to want to be involved with someone who finds them physically attractive in their new appearance. Sentiment holds strong but most relationships would feel strain if one partner suddenly changed drastically from appealing to the taste of the other partner. It would be hard for both to reconcile the differing views of who the transsexual was.