The hell of a justice

[Homini Lupus]

This is a question for believers about the existance of hell: since infinite crime is impossible on Earth (it's limited by the nature of our own existance) how can infinite punishment (hell) be possible?

p.s. no questions about the existance of God here please. Those question are discussed in many other threads and I hate repeating myself.

[thod]

If hell were of finite volume it would eventually fill with sinners. To prevent this possibility it would be sound creational practice to create a hell of infinite volume. This would in turn require an infinite number of devils. Anything less would drop the devil density to zero ensuring sinners go untormented. When you have an infinite number of devils tormenting a finite number of sinners you get infinite punishment.

[Homini Lupus]

Good point, but it assumes that the flow of human souls will never end.

[TheLastMohican]

If hell were of finite volume it would eventually fill with sinners. To prevent this possibility it would be sound creational practice to create a hell of infinite volume. This would in turn require an infinite number of devils. Anything less would drop the devil density to zero ensuring sinners go untormented. When you have an infinite number of devils tormenting a finite number of sinners you get infinite punishment.

Completely wrong, thod, where is your knowledge of theology?! ;)

In the real hell (not the one Dante wrote about), the demons are tormented along with the sinners. The demons are not, in my understanding, doing the tormenting.





TheLastMohican added to this post, 1 minutes and 13 seconds later...

This is a question for believers about the existance of hell: since infinite crime is impossible on Earth (it's limited by the nature of our own existance) how can infinite punishment (hell) be possible?

p.s. no questions about the existance of God here please. Those question are discussed in many other threads and I hate repeating myself.

Well, I think we had better start with the basics. Your question assumes that God exists without offering any evidence of that.

[Homini Lupus]

Yes, I assumed its existance. I've already played the lord's pit-dog in other threads so I thought there was no need of another questioning that.

[TheLastMohican]

Yes, I assumed its existance. I've already played the lord's pit-dog in other threads so I thought there was no need of another questioning that.

I was really joking, asking exactly what you said not to ask in the post that I quoted. Being an INTJerk for the humor of it. :)

Seriously though, I do not understand why the finiteness or infinitness of the crime and punishment matter. Hell might not be truly infinite punishment, as far as I know. At least I do not remember reading that in the Bible. It lasts forever, which makes it infinite in that sense, but it might not be the infinite in intensity. What would be? It's pretty hard to conceptualize.

[Homini Lupus]

There's no clear definition of hell in the Bible as far as I know; t the Moses-times Jews, punishment came on this very Earth: you got killed, swallowed by earth and so on. I'm not sure but it's quite likely many afterlife concepts were first discovered by Zoroaster and later adopted by the jews. In the new testament you find reference to gehenna (it was a place where the Jews burned their trash) or the "place filled with tears and grinning teeth". Hell as we know it was created later.
Anyway tha basis idea is that if it lasts forever it is infinite while if it doesn't last forever it becomes Purgatory (given that you gain Heaven after the punishment).

One possibility is that the unworthy are just canceled from existance.

[TheLastMohican]

Anyway tha basis idea is that if it lasts forever it is infinite while if it doesn't last forever it becomes Purgatory (given that you gain Heaven after the punishment)

Time for some headache-inducing math theory: It has no limit, since it is infinite in time; but it is less punishment than it would be if it was of infinite intensity also. Can one infinity be less than another?

[Homini Lupus]

In math an equation can go toward infinite faster than another. By example you can have
log(n)
or
(n)^(n)
where (n) is infinite.

[thod]

There's no clear definition of hell in the Bible as far as I know

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:

So we know that hell contains a lot of molten brimstone. This means it is between 115 °C and 445 °C assuming atmospheric pressure.

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.


Psalms 86:13

For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell

So we also know is structured into levels. All references refer to hell as down and being thrown down into the pit. We therefore conclude it has gravity. The numerous references to brimstone would imply that all levels are about the same temperature.

Isaiah 5:14

Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

So hell has volume, a requirement for enlargement. The volume is not fixed being able to expand on demand.


However hell is currently empty of sinners. The sinners will only be sent there on the day of judgment. At this point we get "eternal resurrection" with the righteous sitting at the hand of god and the sinners burning in the pit. Since we know that the sun will turn into a red giant in 5-6 billion years, consuming the Earth and negating the concept of a day, one can assume the it will occur within that time span.

The question of where the souls go between death and the day of judgment is not addressed. If we are to accept that they simply exist doing nothing then we could speculate that they remain in that state without need for resurrection.

[TheLastMohican]

In math an equation can go toward infinite faster than another. By example you can have
log(n)
or
(n)^(n)
where (n) is infinite.

Yes, I understand that is valid. I'm just talking in circles again. ;) Another point that proves your idea reasonable is that both a line and a ray are consider infinite, and therefore arguable equal, even though the ray is considered half of the line.

Anyway...I shall try to stick to the topic now.

[Sod]

Re Thod's latest post:
Most of those passages are either prophetic and/or apocalyptic (Revelation and Isaiah) or poetic (Psalms). Taking a woodenly literal approach to either of these genres is, I concede, I common mistake among Christians and non-Christians alike. But it doesn't mean you have to do it :p The Bible is allowed to use metaphor and imagery.

This is a question for believers about the existance of hell: since infinite crime is impossible on Earth (it's limited by the nature of our own existance) how can infinite punishment (hell) be possible?

This is a problem if you consider hell a place of physical punishment actively inflicted by God, devils, or whatever. (Don't get me wrong though, hell is not nice.) Rather, hell is separation from God, more a condition than a location. Who goes 'there'? People who reject life in God's presence (i.e. reject Jesus.) You can think of it like this: if you want anything to do with God on earth (while He's not in-your-face so to speak) why do you think you'd want to spend eternity with Him?

Bill Muehlenberg, in "Hell, Comparative Religion, and Other Thoughts" (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), provides helpful insight:

Thus no one need ever to go to hell because God has done all that is necessary for us to spend eternity with him. Yet if we reject that one and only way, we have no other options, and we condemn ourselves. He does not damn us – we damn ourselves.

But look at it another way. Heaven really is simply about being in God’s presence forever. And since God alone is the source of all that is good, loving and kind, then to reject God is to reject those qualities. As C.S. Lewis put it, “”If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows…then we must starve eternally.””

If people reject God and his offer of a way back to him, God is not responsible. He has done all he can. The opposite of love is selfishness. And hell is a place for selfish people who have refused to renounce their selfishness so that they might get back to harmonious and loving relationships: with God and with others.

...

...No one is ever compelled or forced to go to hell. People arrive their by their own volition. C. S. Lewis again comes to mind here: “There will be two kinds of people in the end: Those that will say to God ‘Thy will be done’ and those to whom God will say ‘Thy will be done’.”

That is, if we relinquish self and say yes to God, we get relationship with God and heaven thrown in to boot. But if we insist on our own way, God will not violate our free will, and we will arrive at an eternal destiny of our own choosing – one apart from God, which means apart from love, happiness, hope and peace. Hell, in other words.

Thus it is not a question of an infinite amount quantitative punishment. Rather it is a qualitative condition. (The same can be said for heaven.)

Our understanding of sin and hell is enhanced by studying the honour-shame paradigm within which the Bible was written. I am running out of time to post, so I cannot elaborate further at this point. But interested readers can see JP Holding, Torture in hell? (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), for an explanation of hell within the honour-shame framework. (Incidentally, JP Holding is an INTJ ;) )

[Blacklustre King]

I've been called a demon enough times by Christian and catholic officials I would be filthy rich if I were paid each and every time they tried to insult me. I've come to almost identify with that insult, so much so I bet there are a few people who like to try an exorcism on me. Complaining about how cold my room is all of the time, I just attribute it to the part of the house where it is situated...

Though since I do not believe in God or Satan it really does not apply to me philosophically. I will admit the existence of a soul and even demons and celestial entities but vastly different in such as they are described by these blatantly infantile religions. To me they are as humans exist and despite the obvious stereo types all are capable of great feats of good or bad and all are subject to corruption.

The original concept was actually reversed or at least differently according to more archaic and esoteric knowledge bases. Hell was originally a creation of a mock Eden one where the desires of man could be filled without end. A realm more "proper" then heaven where it is stated everyone should be in bliss and at peace, without pain or suffering.
Sounds like the recipe for neurosis to me.

Satan or by his many other names was originally not jealous of man but rather defied God for his obviously presumptuous nature, like the odd one out Satan rebelled for the sake of man whether you would believe it or not. God's way is fundamentally flawed and ultimately becomes pointless for such a realm as "Heaven" to exist contradicts and defies the laws that this being supposedly created. If read correctly, upon entering heaven your will is stripped and you become no more an individual but part of a cluster of many souls.

I put myself above such ignorant thinking however, I suppose it is possible fiery realms might exist but who or what entity of sentient being would consciously live in such a place? Dare it be poppy cock to even fathom one would ever be sent there for any kind of real punishment more then they would be for some evil reason.

Do not be blinded by the light you worship.

[TheLastMohican]

Do not be blinded by the light you worship.

Indeed I am not; The light is behind me, illuminating what is ahead of me.

[Sod]

Do not be blinded by the light you worship.
If you stare into the dark, you won't see anything at all.

[Blacklustre King]

If you stare into the light you will be too blinded by it to see anything either. To have the light at your back means your following your own shadow into the darkness, moving away from the light.

[Homini Lupus]

Ever read "the electric ant"? When you've seen everything wich can be seen you don't need sight anymore.

[TheLastMohican]

If you stare into the light you will be too blinded by it to see anything either. To have the light at your back means your following your own shadow into the darkness, moving away from the light.

The light moves, too, and is always with me. I am not following my shadow; I go where the light points.

Psalm 119:105

Your word is a lamp to my feet
and a light for my path.

[thod]

I assume the manufacturers of this product will go to hell. But would you go to hell by inserting, being inserted into, or both?

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[Homini Lupus]

The skill required in negating is nothing compared to the skill of asserting.

[Blacklustre King]

Do not sight biblical verses to me, I' am well capable of discounting the facade that is Christianity based on REAL historical fact. Such as taking the old testament of the Jews and making the New testament in its shadow... Somehow in the change over God went from vengeful, devious, and even sadistic to nice, understanding, and merciful which amazingly enough helped Christians and catholics in their forced conversion of a majority of the planet earth.

It is all history distorted by the imagination of man, delusions during a time when people were willing to believe anything thanks to the harshly oppressive government.

I try to live by MUCH older principles and exist under far more ancient archetypes ones with much sounder and sensible beginnings. Not plagued by senseless wars, massacres, and genocides in the name of some mass hysterical imaginary friend.

... Please excuse my outburst however such things as the church cannot be tolerated for their actions in the past. To believe they are justified by using their God as a front is nothing short of cowardice and ignorance to the reality of their institutions which if you had not noticed control far more then should be alloted to any one group without becoming cultural brainwashing. Lets not forget that "Holy Rome" was once the military capital of the western world from which the general pope waged his slaughters in the name of the God and all this is pure and holy.

I've had enough common sense not to be so blind and violently oppose the spread of the church. Such a force is dangerous and such philosophies are flawed and do not account for what people SHOULD know before they die but rather that they will be swept away to some fantasy land where a blissful and pain free existence awaits them.

But do not take my word for it, if half of them knew the real history of their own religion we would not have this "blinded" problem. Try to find other beliefs and philosophies, you might be more enlightened.

They believe you should live to die when you should die to live. Understand that as you like, it will be my last comment on this matter.

[TheLastMohican]

Understand that as you like, it will be my last comment on this matter.

Very well. I shall move on to more important replies.

[pallasathena]

I don't believe in a fiery Hell that people burn in forever and ever. God is supposed to be just and fair. Is it fair for some imperfect human to be punished forever for an offense that was committed in a second. Also, if the person was punished on Earth for the offense, must he also be punished in Hell too? In the Book of Revelation, it says that Death and Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. How can Hell be thrown into Hell? What is the lake of fire?