Female Facade vs. INTJ

[eponine]

Perhaps my most substantial social struggle, as an INTJ female, is my forced womanly facade.

I was raised by an ESFP mother who placed much emphasis on presenting the politest, kindest, bubbliest and most charming facade to the curious territory our ES-overrun population calls "the outside world". I was a very observant as a child, and sensitive to her "you're being so impolite, they think I'm raising a spoiled brat" accusations when I was, well, myself in social situations as a kid. I had to smile and laugh when people told stupid jokes, and be flattering and perfectly nice all the time. In other words, I had to be sickeningly fake.

So to this day, I still have these habits. I would rather avoid social situations altogether than suffer the draining of energy, the misconceptions, all of it. It's exhausting. And yet I am paranoid that if I'm not perfectly pleasant to people (and this means bubbly and ditzy), that they will share the same ardent disdain my mother does for people who don't smile and giggle. That they'll hate me and spread rumors about me, in fact. I mean, this woman will rant for a solid 20 minutes if she doesn't get a meal from Burger King without a wide smile and she'll shout "HAVE A NICE DAY" sarcastically in the window and speed off if, God forbid, they forget their peppy transaction closing rituals.

Now, don't get me wrong. I dress as I like, I boast a very weird sense of humor and I'll say socially awkward things in the midst of girlishly giggling with the best (of the worst) of them, and people have certainly caught on after our first meeting or so that I am not, in fact, the grand stupid ditz they were mistaken I was. I just ignore/avoid them and hope that I came off as too boring and ordinary to remember, anyway. I mean, what the hell would they see in me, the shallow way I must come off to others?

Worst of all, when people pick up on my substance, too, they assume I am just boastfully narcissistic or something. An extrovert who is full of herself, totally fake, and wont talk to you twice, once she's made her impression.

And so! I hate being female so terribly much because my brooding quiet might be pretty cute if I was a guy. My dry sense of humor evades everyone, and then if I'm serious for a minute, something's wrong. I don't know what's more energy, faking the bubbles, or assuring everyone I'm fine, I'm just being me. Gods, I might actually enjoy the company of others if I didn't have this bizarre hyena handicap of sorts.

Any other INTJ females with this problem? Any way to overcome it? I have a huge issue with being anything less than authentic, so lately I've just gone totally into my shell altogether to avoid the lying.

[Blse]

Well, I'm an ENTJ guy, but I can tell you that this very concern has been voiced over and over and over again by women on this forum since I came here just less than a year ago. From what I've seen on this forum, I can assure you that you're in very good company :).

That being said, as an ENTJ guy I wouldn't mind the behavior that you're describing, nor would most INTJ guys. But then again that's narrowing it down to 3%-6% of guys! For us, generally speaking, susbstance is a real turn on. If you can make me think, challange me on what I say, you'll elicit as much if not more attraction from me than through just being nice. Now if you can be sweet, warm and a confident thinker. Perfect. I can tell you right now that several guys in this thread will likely tell you the same thing. And big suprise because they are either a) NTJs or b) drawn to NTJs (often to the extend where they mis-identify themselves as such).

Lastly, all this makes sense: Te is a very masculine character trait (i.e. associated with behavior contemporary American society deems masculine) and Ni is always weird.

[AngryGroceries]

You feel you have to lie to be accepted by these people?

Just stop faking, don't lie. If someone doesn't actually accept you for you, why bother? Do they have some quality you feel is a necessity in your life...or something? I doubt it.

In highschool I felt like I had to fake so people would accept me. Near the end, I stopped faking, and most people actually didn't accept me. The funny part is, I was happier.

1 or 2 extremely good friends > 50 imaginary friends
(at least to me)

Just sayin'.

By the way, substance is a wonderful thing for a girl (or anyone) to have.

[Il Prodigio]

Also......being mistaken for arrogant happens to male INTJs too. We are quiet...and then once in a while we say something profound...which usually is contrary to the opinions of most others.

Its irritating as hell.. all I can tell you is to be real. be you. Real will always recognize real. After a while the people that will matter will catch on.

[Blse]

You feel you have to lie to be accepted by these people?

Well, imagine management is important. Not so much when it comes to personal relationships but if you want to succeed in the world you do need to play nice with the other kids. That's a reality.


By the way, substance is a wonderful thing for a girl (or anyone) to have.

Agreed, note the empahsis.

[Isabel]

This is my first post after having lurked in this forum for a while.

Yes, I feel exactly the way you described and I had the inner struggle wanting to stay true to myself and adapting socially. Best case scenario was to have people describe me as snobbish or arrogant, worst case scenario was to have some guy friend I'm not even close to tell me in no uncertain terms that I'm "intimidating".

Personally, I found that it was a choice I had to make ... can't have it both ways. And I chose to NOT have that facade as far as it is possible. I should point out that there is no way to escape having that facade as long as we are part of this world and require interaction with others no matter how limited that interaction may be.

I have very few people I count as friends but these are the only ones who know (even though they may not understand) that I need time to be alone and brood. They don't question, they just let me be. I must emphasize that these kind of friends are very rare but I've decided that they're all I need, really. I usually indulge in solitary activities anyhow.

Surely, there are those moments when I miss being out there and wonder what the hell is wrong with me. But then I very quickly remind myself that I simply don't have the energy to keep up the role that I must play in order to be out there. Usually, simple things like going for a dinner requires weeks of "psyching up" on my part if it is something I don't really want to attend but have to as part of what I call my "worldly obligations" (stuff I need to do in order to maintain my place in the world and not be kicked off to some cave to be a hermit).

[egernunge]

I've had a lot of people tell me that my personality is not "feminine" enough. Interestingly, it's always been people that I did not have an equal relationship with, like my stepmom and various female teachers. I have no idea why that is. Maybe they have had to pretend they're someone they're not and now want me to go through the same? Or maybe they see me as a threat somehow.

I've never heard the same accusation from people my own age (I'm 24).

Anyway, I've always managed to be true to myself, for two reasons, I think:

I lived alone with my dad for a long time and he never considered me to be "broken". He was the most important adult when I grew up, so his full acceptance of who I was/am has been pretty vital to me.

Second, as I mentioned, people my own age have never had a problem with the way I am. Instead, they seem to value my brutal honesty and my insistence to be myself. Also, when people get to know me, they can see that while I'm not exactly bubbly, I'm no pessimist either.

The only occasions where it's been a problem is that guys don't see me as girlfriend material, which does bother me sometimes. I have to keep telling myself that if they can't love me for who I am, they're not worth it.

The only advice I can give you is to be you. People can easily see if you're putting on a facade and dislike it, because what are you hiding? In my experience, being genuine is one of the most valued traits.

[ya lyublyu tebya]

What your mom did, that's called emotional abuse, hun. >.< There's no excuse for anyone behaving like that, especially to a child.

I was known as "that weirdo who wears miniskirts and heels in the middle of winter" in school and was told that I dress "frilly" and "prissy," and people even told me that I was "too happy" and "smiled too much." I had the same problems, though. I didn't think of them as my problems, but theirs. It's not necessarily a female facade, just a stupid one. People are just intimidated by intelligence, unfortunately.

[eponine]

Well, I'm an ENTJ guy, but I can tell you that this very concern has been voiced over and over and over again by women on this forum since I came here just less than a year ago. From what I've seen on this forum, I can assure you that you're in very good company :).

That being said, as an ENTJ guy I wouldn't mind the behavior that you're describing, nor would most INTJ guys. But then again that's narrowing it down to 3%-6% of guys! For us, generally speaking, susbstance is a real turn on. If you can make me think, challange me on what I say, you'll elicit as much if not more attraction from me than through just being nice. Now if you can be sweet, warm and a confident thinker. Perfect. I can tell you right now that several guys in this thread will likely tell you the same thing. And big suprise because they are either a) NTJs or b) drawn to NTJs (often to the extend where they mis-identify themselves as such).

Lastly, all this makes sense: Te is a very masculine character trait (i.e. associated with behavior contemporary American society deems masculine) and Ni is always weird.

Thank you very much for your input on this, it's very reassuring to know! The unfortunate barrier here, though, is that my level of introversion is so high that this peppy behavior drains me. I am ashamed of the bubbly, empty way I behave around people I perceive to be shallow and unintelligent ... I just don't want to be bothered much of the time and I find that behaving this uninteresting and dense way doesn't draw a lot of those certain types of people toward me. Then there are people who I respect as intellectuals I do behave rather charismatically around - perky but intellectual. They come to really like me, but then I have this appearance to live up to ... So I wind up avoiding them in the future so I don't have to spend the energy, because it drains me a substantial amount. I'd rather they just keep me in their minds as that person they really liked and not have to bother again. :uneasy:

As you also pointed out in a later post, you're absolutely right about requiring this energy in certain butt-kissing situations, sadly. I guess at least I'm equipped with the empty charm and flowing bullshit when these situations arise, haha.

You feel you have to lie to be accepted by these people?

Just stop faking, don't lie. If someone doesn't actually accept you for you, why bother? Do they have some quality you feel is a necessity in your life...or something? I doubt it.

In highschool I felt like I had to fake so people would accept me. Near the end, I stopped faking, and most people actually didn't accept me. The funny part is, I was happier.

1 or 2 extremely good friends > 50 imaginary friends
(at least to me)

Just sayin'.

By the way, substance is a wonderful thing for a girl (or anyone) to have.

Well, not exactly "accepted". I totally agree about the few friends being way superior over many shallow acquaintances. I am a person who has absolutely no idea what loneliness feels like ... It's curiosity, not loneliness that brings me out of my hermit hole. Sometimes I enjoy the energy of people around me, but I'm happily a spectator of it all. So this definitely isn't how I go about finding friends. Good friends have to accept me as an INTJ, for my grouchiness and honesty when it arises. In turn, they get someone who keeps it real, is always willing to listen and offer good advice, and will never pull a popular chick move and say behind their backs what I can't say to their faces.

This is just everyday bullshitting to perfect strangers, or relatives, co-workers. People I really don't think twice of, usually, but I still feel kind of slimy for feeling totally incapable of just ... ignoring them, or even acting half-way decent. Instead, I have to ooze sparkly bubbles because I grew up assuming that it was just how you gotta be as a girl. Then some of these people do get intertwined in my friendship or family circle, and I have to keep up to facade.

Also......being mistaken for arrogant happens to male INTJs too. We are quiet...and then once in a while we say something profound...which usually is contrary to the opinions of most others.

Its irritating as hell.. all I can tell you is to be real. be you. Real will always recognize real. After a while the people that will matter will catch on.

I have no doubt at all that male INTJs are perceived as arrogant often - not to worry, I'm definitely not pulling a "woe is the female minority" thing at all. It's more that I could definitely still come off as equally pleasant if I was a male INTJ and expend far less energy in the process.

I mean a guy could be perceived as sweet with just chuckle and a few undeserved compliments - even that's a stretch - that'll suffice. For us girls though ... It'd seem half-hearted. Girls should giggle, wear a smile the entire time, alter the pitch of their voice. A guy couldn't even get away with that without seeming kind of overbearing or gender confused. It's just so exhausting.

This is my first post after having lurked in this forum for a while.

Yes, I feel exactly the way you described and I had the inner struggle wanting to stay true to myself and adapting socially. Best case scenario was to have people describe me as snobbish or arrogant, worst case scenario was to have some guy friend I'm not even close to tell me in no uncertain terms that I'm "intimidating".

Personally, I found that it was a choice I had to make ... can't have it both ways. And I chose to NOT have that facade as far as it is possible. I should point out that there is no way to escape having that facade as long as we are part of this world and require interaction with others no matter how limited that interaction may be.

I have very few people I count as friends but these are the only ones who know (even though they may not understand) that I need time to be alone and brood. They don't question, they just let me be. I must emphasize that these kind of friends are very rare but I've decided that they're all I need, really. I usually indulge in solitary activities anyhow.

Surely, there are those moments when I miss being out there and wonder what the hell is wrong with me. But then I very quickly remind myself that I simply don't have the energy to keep up the role that I must play in order to be out there. Usually, simple things like going for a dinner requires weeks of "psyching up" on my part if it is something I don't really want to attend but have to as part of what I call my "worldly obligations" (stuff I need to do in order to maintain my place in the world and not be kicked off to some cave to be a hermit).

Thank you, I completely relate to this. Welcome to the forum, my first post was about ... 6 or 7 ago :) Everyone's very helpful and welcoming here, I've found already.

I've had a lot of people tell me that my personality is not "feminine" enough. Interestingly, it's always been people that I did not have an equal relationship with, like my stepmom and various female teachers. I have no idea why that is. Maybe they have had to pretend they're someone they're not and now want me to go through the same? Or maybe they see me as a threat somehow.

I've never heard the same accusation from people my own age (I'm 24).

Anyway, I've always managed to be true to myself, for two reasons, I think:

I lived alone with my dad for a long time and he never considered me to be "broken". He was the most important adult when I grew up, so his full acceptance of who I was/am has been pretty vital to me.

Second, as I mentioned, people my own age have never had a problem with the way I am. Instead, they seem to value my brutal honesty and my insistence to be myself. Also, when people get to know me, they can see that while I'm not exactly bubbly, I'm no pessimist either.

The only occasions where it's been a problem is that guys don't see me as girlfriend material, which does bother me sometimes. I have to keep telling myself that if they can't love me for who I am, they're not worth it.

The only advice I can give you is to be you. People can easily see if you're putting on a facade and dislike it, because what are you hiding? In my experience, being genuine is one of the most valued traits.

You must be a very healthy INTJ then, from the way you explained that your differences have been nurtured well (for the most part) by your father and peers. That's refreshing to hear! It also sounds like because your father did nourish your more masculine tendencies as this type, you were able to be confident enough in yourself that others were drawn to you. Hopefully I can get to this point, but maybe never fully.


What your mom did, that's called emotional abuse, hun. >.< There's no excuse for anyone behaving like that, especially to a child.

She was interesting, alright. :wreck:

[Zsych]

People will not like you, if you don't act how they expect people they like to act.
Be Super-INTJ, and you may not easily connect with the vast ES populace.

I think a certain degree of social adaptation is acceptable. Your behavior is not who you are, it is merely an approach to dealing with the world. Think of it as being a tool to achieve objectives... and be selective about who you deal with when possible.

[Napoleptic]

If you can't be who you truly are, then how will you ever be happy? INTJs often have a "screw what society wants" nature anyway, so being forced into societal norms rubs the wrong way to the point that Bad Things happen.

Check this out:
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That's kind of what pushed me into joining this forum - it was a way of saying, hey, look at this, I'm not the only one! In fact, there are so many of us, one of US has been kind enough to write YOU a guide!

I don't know if asking your mother or anyone else read it (and other INTJ sources you can find) with an open mind would be helpful, but you know these people better than I. Point out that our personality is estimated at making up only 1-4% (some sources say 1-2%) of the population, so it's absolutely reasonable to expect that they may never have had a chance to get to know someone like us before, and you feel like this might help them understand you, connect better with you. It's only fair that they give it a try before dismissing you. You may have to have them read it more than once or twice. Don't be pushy, just tell them it's important to you. If you have to meet their expectations, suggest they try to see what yours are. Again, reinforce that it's important to you - appeal to those messy feelings of theirs. :)

Also, seek out friends who feel and - more importantly - THINK the same way you do. Surround yourself with them. The reality is, there are some people who will never understand you, and having some who do soothes the discomfort. Sometimes you're even lucky enough to find one or two with whom you can simply sit and be silent. They're worth their weight in gold.

If someone was telling me all the time I needed to be more feminine, I'd have a hard time keeping my mouth shut so as not to say, "What, having girl parts isn't sufficient?" Ah, INTJ biting sarcasm - gotta love it.

[AliTree]

issues that are rooted in the manner yours are are very difficult to over come. allowing yourself much time and some grace in terms of trying to get over at least parts of it will be needed for success.
i myself thankfully had a ENTJ mother and ISTJ father who, though not perfect by any means, never really made me feel the way your mother seemed to have. but i got the same sort of feelings/thoughts as you from just being with girls. i don't know if how i handle things will help you out at all but i think it's worth the try:
when i first meet a person (personally) i am very quiet. i keep to myself and try to pick-up on things about them. i then evaluate what i can pick-up from them and decide whether or not i care to have them like me or dislike me. if the prior, i try to be polite and quiet. if the later, i am very much the blunt/dry/offensive self that i naturally am. i also simply try to avoid conversations with females all together.

[rain]

Could it be possible that you're looking at it an entirely different way that is negative in itself?

I think it's fun to meet new people, sufficed to say as long as they're not the type who hang out at Bubba Gump's restaurant in LA where people stand on top of tables yelling at the top of their lungs reliving their frat boy years and laughing in a way that is reminiscient of hyenas in mating.

When I meet new people- I tend to be attracted towards entrepreneurs and artistic people, I like to discover things about them that aren't easily visible. What they don't say is as important as what they do say. Typically it takes me about 5 minutes before I can completely figure someone out and where they fit into my life trajectory.

I think as some women get older, they may become "set" in their ways and tend to only want to do the same things with the same person. These women all say the same thing- they hate putting up a fake facade to handle the stress of dealing with others. If you think of it as "fake" then they may perceive you as the same way; someone who is polite but not sincere.

I think part of interacting with people you may not know depends upon first finding common ground- and not just telling them what you think they want to hear, which is why you may be exhausted dealing with people all the time.

I personally think interaction is fun- every person I meet is a puzzle waiting to be solved or a sculpture I want to carve out from marble.

With my ex-boyfriend, it took him 6 months before he told me about a horrible tragic accident which ended up killing his brother. Before that though, when I'd first met him, I always knew there was something quite melancholy about him. In photographs, he always looks quite sad, even when he's smiling. When I first met him, we only discussed superficialities, but I knew there was something there that I wanted to ultimately uncover, and my instinct told me that he would be someone who would be a good friend for the rest of my life.

I think NFs like everyone to know their entire life stories at the first impression, and they like to have "meaningful" conversations all the time.

Not so with most of the NTs that I know. First there is the superficial layer of bullshit and fun; then there is a secondary surface layer of tests, to see if you will ever be in our most trusted confidence. Following are the layers of disclosure, then there is the abyss that is our core.

We NTs- NTPs/NTJs/STJs in particular- we don't want people to know us all at once. Leave that for the NFPs to do. When we first meet you, we want to know which buttons to press, and how far you can be pushed and where you will fit into our lives, if at all. There's nothing fake about it. :)

[cmrain]

Thank you very much for your input on this, it's very reassuring to know! The unfortunate barrier here, though, is that my level of introversion is so high that this peppy behavior drains me. I am ashamed of the bubbly, empty way I behave around people I perceive to be shallow and unintelligent ... I just don't want to be bothered much of the time and I find that behaving this uninteresting and dense way doesn't draw a lot of those certain types of people toward me. Then there are people who I respect as intellectuals I do behave rather charismatically around - perky but intellectual. They come to really like me, but then I have this appearance to live up to ... So I wind up avoiding them in the future so I don't have to spend the energy, because it drains me a substantial amount. I'd rather they just keep me in their minds as that person they really liked and not have to bother again. :uneasy:

Well, not exactly "accepted". I totally agree about the few friends being way superior over many shallow acquaintances. I am a person who has absolutely no idea what loneliness feels like ...

This is just everyday bullshitting to perfect strangers, or relatives, co-workers. People I really don't think twice of, usually, but I still feel kind of slimy for feeling totally incapable of just ... ignoring them, or even acting half-way decent. Instead, I have to ooze sparkly bubbles because I grew up assuming that it was just how you gotta be as a girl. Then some of these people do get intertwined in my friendship or family circle, and I have to keep up to facade.


Your feminine nature will show through to the right people no matter what you do even if you choose not to follow social customs. I know a lot of well adjusted females that abhor the ditsy and bubbly personality type. They don't care for it any more than you do. Seems like purposeful reconditioning might be helpful in your case. You can try out different behavior patterns and still remain true to yourself. Part of the trick is learning not to care about the immediate outcome. With the exception of interactions that might damage your career or endanger your life, you really could have a lot of freedom and social experimentation without caring what others think of you or how they react.

My thought is to try and follow the golden rule and treat others well whenever I have an interaction. Of course that doesn't always happen, but I think it can be a better guidepost than most. You can be pleasant without being ditsy or bubbly. Adding fake emotion like this can be draining, but keeping neutral emotion tends to conserve energy. You could almost start from square one and catch yourself anytime you act in a way that is not acceptable.


From reading responses to this post, you seem conscientious and easy to get along with, so seeing the true you in public doesn't sound bad at all. The world seems receptive enough to people who attack it with an open mind and show little negativity. That is how you come across here and I don't see why you can't be received well out in your daily social reality as well.

[plushbug]

Passing by late in the day with an older woman's perspective...two thoughts:

First is that there are plenty of ways to be womanly that work just fine, that don't involve living up to anyone's ideal of the feminine as cheerful, bubbly, sparkly, vivacious, always positive and nice, and for preference empty-headed. I could add, nurturing, maternal, religious, and expected to be respectfully submissive in the presence of males, as those were heavily indoctrinated qualities in my mother's day, and still 'expected' at the edges of my upbringing--though fortunately not by my mother, once she grew up--and thank goodness! because as an INTJ, I couldn't have done any of it. In particular, playing the high-energy, perky and positive ESF role--very, very hard to sustain, when you're not naturally equipped to do so. Massively draining. Oh, yes, useful by times! as you note:
I guess at least I'm equipped with the empty charm and flowing bullshit when these situations arise, haha.
:laugh: ooyeah, don't knock it, it's a skill! But it's not something any INT is built to sustain, and fortunately, it's not necessary in the larger world. We're somewhat rare, and our 'substance' offered straight up, especially when unbuffered by courtesy and thoughtfulness, can be any and all of disconcerting, intimidating, and at risk of being interpreted as arrogant--but in my experience, it's not hard to sidestep those negative potentials, and from reading your posts so far, I don't see you having any difficulty dodging them all. It's enough, in the vast majority of situations, to be calm, polite, and quietly oneself.

Second thought is that if you're at a stage where, as you say,
so lately I've just gone totally into my shell altogether to avoid the lying.
you may be able to use that fact of withdrawal--of having reached a point of discomfort with how you've been taught to present so far, where you've stepped back to consider how exhausting it is and, as an introverted type, gone within to work out what's more natural for you--as a basis for 'explaining' (not explicitly, unless required) your eventually re-emerging with a quieter, lower-key, less bubbly, giggly, etc., persona. I wouldn't expect it to sell with your mom--based on the Burger King example, she sounds an extreme case!--but to anyone less invested in your presenting this way, it should be recognizable as a natural part of where we go as we grow up. Especially as introverted types.

[Lucy Snowe]

I can relate to feeling like people expect you to be shallow and giggle etc. Usually what I do, especially with people I don't know is aim instead for the perception "she seems like a nice girl, quiet, but nice". I listen a lot, smile a little, help when I can. People that I do allow to know me will find that I laugh, even if its at weird things, and tend to like that I listen to them and can understand the logical issues in situations.

I like that this allows me to let people know me slowly, but without being inconsistent with who I am, or seeming inconsistent when I can't keep up an act, or alienating people who would never like or get or know what to do with me if I showed them too much.

[jndiii]

Perhaps my most substantial social struggle, as an INTJ female, is my forced womanly facade.

I was raised by an ESFP mother who placed much emphasis on presenting the politest, kindest, bubbliest and most charming facade to the curious territory our ES-overrun population calls "the outside world". I was a very observant as a child, and sensitive to her "you're being so impolite, they think I'm raising a spoiled brat" accusations when I was, well, myself in social situations as a kid. I had to smile and laugh when people told stupid jokes, and be flattering and perfectly nice all the time. In other words, I had to be sickeningly fake.

So to this day, I still have these habits. I would rather avoid social situations altogether than suffer the draining of energy, the misconceptions, all of it. It's exhausting. And yet I am paranoid that if I'm not perfectly pleasant to people (and this means bubbly and ditzy), that they will share the same ardent disdain my mother does for people who don't smile and giggle. That they'll hate me and spread rumors about me, in fact. I mean, this woman will rant for a solid 20 minutes if she doesn't get a meal from Burger King without a wide smile and she'll shout "HAVE A NICE DAY" sarcastically in the window and speed off if, God forbid, they forget their peppy transaction closing rituals.

Now, don't get me wrong. I dress as I like, I boast a very weird sense of humor and I'll say socially awkward things in the midst of girlishly giggling with the best (of the worst) of them, and people have certainly caught on after our first meeting or so that I am not, in fact, the grand stupid ditz they were mistaken I was. I just ignore/avoid them and hope that I came off as too boring and ordinary to remember, anyway. I mean, what the hell would they see in me, the shallow way I must come off to others?

Worst of all, when people pick up on my substance, too, they assume I am just boastfully narcissistic or something. An extrovert who is full of herself, totally fake, and wont talk to you twice, once she's made her impression.

And so! I hate being female so terribly much because my brooding quiet might be pretty cute if I was a guy. My dry sense of humor evades everyone, and then if I'm serious for a minute, something's wrong. I don't know what's more energy, faking the bubbles, or assuring everyone I'm fine, I'm just being me. Gods, I might actually enjoy the company of others if I didn't have this bizarre hyena handicap of sorts.

Any other INTJ females with this problem? Any way to overcome it? I have a huge issue with being anything less than authentic, so lately I've just gone totally into my shell altogether to avoid the lying.


A few thoughts:

First, there's nothing wrong with you. You are as you are, and you'll find a lot of acceptance, here.

Don't worry about how feminine you are. INTJ females are among the sexiest beings in the universe, so much so that most guys don't know how to handle them.

The skills your mother taught to you are good skills to know, even though they feel fake and you feel uncomfortable using them. Eventually, it will be more like a set of clothes, not fake, but a choice you make in terms of how you present yourself, usually made on the basis of establishing good rapport, not merely adapting to others' expectations of you.

As an INTJ, I have learned to "fake" a serene happiness (it helps that it reflects a real inner happiness) rather than totally close off my self expression. Totally clamping down on my emotional expression gets me much unwanted attention, while the serenity keeps others incurious as to what I might be thinking. I think the version of "fake" your mother taught you is rather more uncomfortable for an INTJ to emulate. Perhaps you can work on a different "facade" that takes less energy without pushing people away.

It might help to know that being that bubbly and extroverted even tires out the extroverts. We introverts just tire faster, because we aren't as interested in that much human contact. It's not "fakeness" so much as it takes that much energy to interact with people.

Welcome to the forum. I think you'll learn a lot about yourself, here, and about how others perceive INTJs, and how to deal with it all.

[catzmeow]

I don't know if this helps, but I'm an ENFP, with all that implies, and I have a lot of bubbly ditziness naturally. And it still tires me out when I feel like I have to "perform." I need a ton of down time to recuperate from that. I've been told for most of my life that I'm not feminine enough, because I'm competitive & aggressive. I swear too much, I'm too much like "one of the guys," at times, and because I've worked primarily with law enforcement, maybe that's true. I did develop a hard shell in order to survive.

However, femininity is much more than that. You are entitled to define what that means for you, and express it, in your own way.

So, take your time and figure out your own self. Then, express that self in ways that make you the happiest. If people don't like it, fuck 'em. Life is too short to live trying to cage yourself into a box that is too small and doesn't fit.

Being feminine means what you say it means, not some prescribed set of rules from an archaic era.

[sircockburn]

Perhaps my most substantial social struggle, as an INTJ female, is my forced womanly facade.

I was raised by an ESFP mother who placed much emphasis on presenting the politest, kindest, bubbliest and most charming facade to the curious territory our ES-overrun population calls "the outside world". I was a very observant as a child, and sensitive to her "you're being so impolite, they think I'm raising a spoiled brat" accusations when I was, well, myself in social situations as a kid. I had to smile and laugh when people told stupid jokes, and be flattering and perfectly nice all the time. In other words, I had to be sickeningly fake.

So to this day, I still have these habits. I would rather avoid social situations altogether than suffer the draining of energy, the misconceptions, all of it. It's exhausting. And yet I am paranoid that if I'm not perfectly pleasant to people (and this means bubbly and ditzy), that they will share the same ardent disdain my mother does for people who don't smile and giggle. That they'll hate me and spread rumors about me, in fact. I mean, this woman will rant for a solid 20 minutes if she doesn't get a meal from Burger King without a wide smile and she'll shout "HAVE A NICE DAY" sarcastically in the window and speed off if, God forbid, they forget their peppy transaction closing rituals.

Now, don't get me wrong. I dress as I like, I boast a very weird sense of humor and I'll say socially awkward things in the midst of girlishly giggling with the best (of the worst) of them, and people have certainly caught on after our first meeting or so that I am not, in fact, the grand stupid ditz they were mistaken I was. I just ignore/avoid them and hope that I came off as too boring and ordinary to remember, anyway. I mean, what the hell would they see in me, the shallow way I must come off to others?

Worst of all, when people pick up on my substance, too, they assume I am just boastfully narcissistic or something. An extrovert who is full of herself, totally fake, and wont talk to you twice, once she's made her impression.

And so! I hate being female so terribly much because my brooding quiet might be pretty cute if I was a guy. My dry sense of humor evades everyone, and then if I'm serious for a minute, something's wrong. I don't know what's more energy, faking the bubbles, or assuring everyone I'm fine, I'm just being me. Gods, I might actually enjoy the company of others if I didn't have this bizarre hyena handicap of sorts.

Any other INTJ females with this problem? Any way to overcome it? I have a huge issue with being anything less than authentic, so lately I've just gone totally into my shell altogether to avoid the lying.

Do you still visit your mom often?

I'm an ENTJ with this problem. (YES!! SIRCOCKBURN IS A GIRL, and it's still SIR to all of you.) With an ESFJ mother, you can imagine the *fun*. :stare:

My natural self was always extremely blunt, loud, bossy and not at all feminine. I loved sports, cars, and just causing mayhem. My mother always said I was too loud, a troublemaker, too tomboyish, mean and insensitive. My mother bitching me out constantly finally dragged me down when I was probably 15. I also grew up with nothing but ultra-quiet studious Asian kids, and the girls were quiet and feminine, making me further embarassed of myself.

So I then became a shell of my former self, forcing myself to be quiet and smiley, cutesy and talk in a high-pitched soft voice. I acquired the habit of apologizing incessantly, and just constantly squelching any desire to be normal and not a giggle-me-pink doll. That's why I at first thought I was an INFP. (I never did dispute the N). It never came off as natural, no matter how long I carried on this pathetic act. Even others noticed the lack of natural-ness of my perk.

Away from my mother since 18, away from my hometown, I'm back to my natural self. I'm a 20-year-old corporate manager with no qualms to tell it like it is, and a university student who's ALWAYS in charge of the group projects. :crowngrin:

Seriously, moral of my whining is, just get away and start anew. If you're not an ESFP, you're not an ESFP, and probably don't need to be around ESFPs pressuring you to be like them. Giggle as rarely as you damn please.

[Deliberator]

I too struggle with making the "right" impression. However, there really is no right impression. If someone doesn't like the kind of person you are, there's really not much you can do. Some people will be jealous (very common i've noticed), others will assume you are stuck-up (which may have some truth to it). Others will realize that you are interested in what they consider very boring topics. This cannot be helped, so don't waste your time with it.

What you can do is be a kind but honest version of yourself. If people don't like you then you spare your time in insipid small talk, if they do like you you may actually gain a friend you can stand.


It is an art though. I find it difficult to be the best and least intimidating version of myself when I am with new people... after all I am an introvert and I may not want people to see me as I am straight off. I usually buy time and start calculating my next social move by asking the other person about themselves and listen carefully. Usually I can tell early on how much of me I wish them to see.

[Feral]

I don't generally fake bubbliness. It just comes out as awkward.

If they don't like that I'm quiet, have an odd, dry sense of humor, or any of the other things they're looking for, then it's really not my problem.

[Evangelist]

I have learned to be a bit shallow in some situations. Yes, I did say that I had to learn it. I hate small talk, but in a crowded room full of people I barely know, that is what they do. They sit in tight circles and talk about stuff I think is silly, but I can't draw them into deeper water without going through the shallow. Hang in there socially and it does get better.

[Djeri]

I don't think the "put on a polite/charming facade for the outside world" thing your mother taught you was necessarily an ESFP thing - though I'm sure it could be. I think it's also a cultural thing.

I had a very similar experience growing up (and I'm not even an INTJ; I'm INTP) with a rather similar mother. She might have even been a similar type - but I associated the "put on your nice social face with company/people who aren't family" lesson with Southern (in the southern US anyway, the part often just referred to as "the South") culture, not with my mom's personality type. My significant other, who grew up in a rather deeper part of the South than I, had the same experience. Overcoming that conditioning is... tricky.

Being able to put on that "social polite charming" act is a valuable skill. Being able to be yourself is also valuable. Knowing when to put on the act and when to be yourself is the most valuable of all, IMO.

I found the constant act and all the societal requirements that went along with it pretty exhausting, too. Part of why I'm glad I no longer live in the American South. But it was valuable to learn and comes in handy pretty regularly.

[realitycheque]

Sorry for another male response, but hopefully the comments apply regardless.

ESFx personality types are strongly driven by "rules", i.e., of how to behave. These rules are often social, so are relative to the ESFx's upbringing. Unfortunately, their enforcement of the rules may be absolute in nature. However for us INTJs, these rules should be taken with a grain of salt; try to understand the valid purpose of the rule, and be authentic to fulfilling the purpose of the rule. Then you are a rule-bender rather than a rule-breaker. If the ESFx cannot accept this "grayness", you know you've attempted compromise, and their black-or-white thinking (a cognitive distortion) is not your problem.

One trick (from Dale Carnegie) I've learned in social situations is to ask questions to others that get them talking about themselves. This allows the extroverts to perform and introverts to appear interested in others, even while engaged in contemplating other matters related and unrelated. They talk and we hear (and usually even listen). This is a skill that capitalizes on our strengths and tendencies, while we can gain insights into others that may be of future benefit (subsequent meeting). Remembering details about a person is a great social complement to them and to you.

A final thought: being authentic does not require that we voice our personal opinions in social situations. We can maintain our internal integrity (my definition/philosophy on authenticity) while filtering our responses (social and professional). This discipline may require practice, but I've found it takes less energy to restrain my raw responses than to engage others in somewhat pointless conversations. You can nod in understanding their POV (not necessarily agree with it), and occasionally provide humorous witty quips, but remember to quickly re-assess implications before unleashing in case they may be taken negatively.

[Rachel45]

For many years I used whatever I could to "fit in". I must admit, it has cost me a lot. I was raised by a highly dysfunctional INFJ mother. Lots of drugs and alcohol replaced what should have been a warm maternal mother; unfortunately, no heart was beating within.. Anyway, I always thought something was wrong with my personality. I noticed it as early as first grade. There was a period of time (mid-teens), when I was truly myself. Fortunately, I have been returned to the independent minded individual I once was at the age of nearly forty-seven! I traveled a very circuitous route to get back here. Above all, don't waste a single drop of your time!! INTJ women are the rarest type in the world, enjoy! ( I know it is hard, but it will get easier as long as you go with your true nature).

[callalilly]

I rarely fake, unless I have to for jobs that require me to be more social and yes I hate it. "The double lives us women have to live :)"
My mom always told me I was rude and selfish -she got over it.
But I do understand not feeling feminine and maybe like an alien to the world around me.

[LadyLazarus]

More than putting up a nice facade, I'm interested in being a good person. Now, that has different meanings for everyone, but what good is there in smiling when you don't feel like it? Or being all cheerful when you are not like that? It doesn't make you a better person. Noone loves someone for just being smiley and cheerful. You are who you are, and everyone is unique and special in their own way. I think there are more important aspects in one's personal development than putting up a nice facade. Now, don't get me wrong, it doesn't mean that you can go around insulting people or being violent or not saying hi, thank you, please or whatever...After all, we live in a society and there is a minimum of consideration that we owe each other to live in a civil group. However, everyone is different, and people who are really worth it, will know that a person's value goes beyond stereotypical conceps of femininity or masculinity. Just my 2 cents as an INTJ female with a developed feeling side =)

[Ilara]

Look down. Is the plumbing female? Then you're female, and the things you do and the way you act are feminine by definition.

More seriously, I would say that you've got a useful skill there. I've had to work hard in order to develop social graces. Yes, they feel a little fake, but they sure come in handy!

It's going to be hard to throw off all of that conditioning, but there's nothing 'wrong' with your personality type. Nor is your type any more or less repugnant than others. True, we INTJs are hard to get to know and like, but those who make the effort and bother are usually very interesting and worthwhile people.

I would suggest that maybe you try using this skill of yours selectively and start being more honest in 'safer' situations? I work harder on my social graces in class and at seminars/conferences than in company of my friends, for example. I might well smile and nod politely in class where with my friends I might quirk a sarcastic eyebrow and say something potentially offensive.

The more comfortable you are in your own skin, the more easily others will accept that skin/self. When I was an awkward and gangly teen, I found people much more judgemental of me than they are now. It took me a few years to be able to do this, but now I hold myself confidently and wear my no-nonsense attitude on my face. Sure, I occasionally ruffle some feathers, but it's really worth it.

The key will be, frankly, to get rid of that inherent belief that you have that there's something 'wrong' or 'unpleasant' about your character and personality. It's not true. If you walk around believing that, though, you might give off an aggressive vibe that'll get people's backs up. Being comfortable with yourself invites others to do the same.

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with you, and you're not un-feminine. A lot of the labels that society attaches to people are bogus at best and evil at worst. The societal view of what it is to be female is one of those evil ones. Nobody knows better than you who you are. There's no way you "have" to be to be "right" or "natural".

Welcome to the forum (says a fairly new member, XD...)!

[Dasein]

generally, there is a dichotomy between image and who someone actually is. Your mom seems like she has a high regard for the feelings of others, but to call you a spoiled brat for being yourself is a bit harsh. One would think she would value your feelings more than the perceptions of others (who generally are only really thinking of themselves and their image, anyway) But, giving her the benefit of the doubt, maybe she wanted you to learn early how to play the game. She wanted to save you from ostracization from your peers, so in her mind she was doing the right thing.. It seems you have different values, but everyone loves in their own way.
I think that a happy medium can be reached between being true to yourself, and having a friendly, approachable attitude towards others. The shell is important, it gets your foot in the door.

[LifesEcstasy]

Perhaps my most substantial social struggle, as an INTJ female, is my forced womanly facade.

I was raised by an ESFP mother who placed much emphasis on presenting the politest, kindest, bubbliest and most charming facade to the curious territory our ES-overrun population calls "the outside world". I was a very observant as a child, and sensitive to her "you're being so impolite, they think I'm raising a spoiled brat" accusations when I was, well, myself in social situations as a kid. I had to smile and laugh when people told stupid jokes, and be flattering and perfectly nice all the time. In other words, I had to be sickeningly fake.

So to this day, I still have these habits. I would rather avoid social situations altogether than suffer the draining of energy, the misconceptions, all of it. It's exhausting. And yet I am paranoid that if I'm not perfectly pleasant to people (and this means bubbly and ditzy), that they will share the same ardent disdain my mother does for people who don't smile and giggle. That they'll hate me and spread rumors about me, in fact. I mean, this woman will rant for a solid 20 minutes if she doesn't get a meal from Burger King without a wide smile and she'll shout "HAVE A NICE DAY" sarcastically in the window and speed off if, God forbid, they forget their peppy transaction closing rituals.

Now, don't get me wrong. I dress as I like, I boast a very weird sense of humor and I'll say socially awkward things in the midst of girlishly giggling with the best (of the worst) of them, and people have certainly caught on after our first meeting or so that I am not, in fact, the grand stupid ditz they were mistaken I was. I just ignore/avoid them and hope that I came off as too boring and ordinary to remember, anyway. I mean, what the hell would they see in me, the shallow way I must come off to others?

Worst of all, when people pick up on my substance, too, they assume I am just boastfully narcissistic or something. An extrovert who is full of herself, totally fake, and wont talk to you twice, once she's made her impression.

And so! I hate being female so terribly much because my brooding quiet might be pretty cute if I was a guy. My dry sense of humor evades everyone, and then if I'm serious for a minute, something's wrong. I don't know what's more energy, faking the bubbles, or assuring everyone I'm fine, I'm just being me. Gods, I might actually enjoy the company of others if I didn't have this bizarre hyena handicap of sorts.

Any other INTJ females with this problem? Any way to overcome it? I have a huge issue with being anything less than authentic, so lately I've just gone totally into my shell altogether to avoid the lying.

I share the same issue and struggled. But actually on another thread on this forum someone suggested that I am androgynous and I like that way of viewing myself. Sure I am stuck in a super feminine body but that doesn't mean I can't be without gender in my mind. Now I know that realistically that kind of attitude will not make me Miss Popularity but really what's to lose anyway. I belong to a small portion of the entire population, does it matter if most people don't get me as long as I get me? While I may not appeal to every guy out there I wouldn't want to, because I am looking for only a specific kind of guy anyway.

I'm me. I'm working the uniqueness which is me. And as long as I am basically polite to others and do no harm, then that's enough for me.

[Distance]

Eponine, do you realize that no one can diminish you except yourself? Your inner dialogue needs to be more kind to both yourself and the outside world.

[UrWrongImRit]

seriously, reading your post OP, was like reading about my life.

I went through the EXACT same thing as you. I literally mean EXACT.

I faked emotions, sympahty, laughter, empathy, happiness, and all those things in between. I was in the same situation as you, where the " social image" I present is extremely critical to my parents; and it soon took a life of it's own.

It was extremely draining to say the least.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard my best-friends tell me " I thought you were an angel/sweetest person ever, the first time we met you" then they would add " boyyyy were we wrong!!"

My teachers adored me. When I got into fights/arguments with kids, higher authority always believed my lies( because I seemed so sweet, it was out of question that I behaved so inappropriately).

Visitors/neighbors/random people LOVED me. Sometimes they would bring me gifts -_-

At one point of my life, I just got so sick of not being myself, keeping everything inside, not saying whats on my mind, not voicing out my opinion.

I decided it was a time for a change.

Although now my mother refers to me as a "cold, heartless bitch" all the time, it's completely worth being my self, saying what I think , and acting the way I feel like acting.

I still maintain a level of politeness, since it's engraved into my personality now.

Mannerisms are also very important to me.

However, I'm still , 100%, my self now. :)