Greek Economics

[Marcus Septim]

As the majority of the population of this forum is from America
I would like to know your feedback on the current upheaval in European Economy and the terrible situation that Greece has found herself,in the eye of the tornado

Do we have any hope of survival?(Greece)
Does the EU has any chance of sticking together?(Everyone is looking for its own skin right now,the Germans are whiping the French are condescending,the English are selling everyone out,the Italians are unusually silent..i mean wtf are we a Union or what?)

I dunno gimme your opinion

[Tristan]

I am among the 99% of Americans who know nothing about the Greek economy. But to see a country go bankrupt strikes close to home. The US and the UK are in deep debt, and their bonds are on the brink of losing AAA status. Everyone is worried for their own skin, and that is true for America as well. I won't lie to you. Many Americans would be quietly happy to see an end to the EU (for the moment) because the Euro is a threat to our own currency hegemony. Because we are in debt, we lean on our hegemony right now... we can use it as leverage to keep issuing trusted bonds.

The lesson of Greece to us is that this is wrong. Too much debt will cause a run on the bank. It will just happen, eventually.

Like I said, I know nothing about Greece's economy, though it's hard to imagine you not surviving. One thing I do know, and like, about the situation is the idea of the "austerity program:" redirecting tax revenues from guns-and-butter spending to debt closure. It's called austerity because it suggests an unusual attitude; normally taxpayers want instant gratification for their taxes. Austerity is old-school, unpopular, abstract, and not rewarding in the short term. Austerity is so unpopular, that it has not been tried anywhere. It's too much Hayek and not enough Keynes, honestly. I think it would be cool if the idea took a hold of Greece and spread.

Austerity is probably be the only way Greece could get aid from Germany, anyway. Look at it from the German perspective: they're waiting to see if they can make a loan that will be repaid.

[Marcus]

The EU won't allow Greece to go bankrupt, but you'll have to cut back your expenses a lot.

BTW, I live in a country which experienced a similar situation a few years ago and was saved by loans from IMF/EU. Now we are paying the price as the public services (education, healthcare, public transport, etc.) and the local governments are running out of money because of the austerity package.

[Lycurgus]

I doubt the EU will allow Greece to go belly up. However, I think that in the future the EU is going to be much more stringent in who they allow into the EU -- from an economic standpoint.

[Marcus]

I doubt the EU will allow Greece to go belly up. However, I think that in the future the EU is going to be much more stringent in who they allow into the EU -- from an economic standpoint.

Do you mean EU or Eurozone? Neither has entry criteria concerning the level of economic development (i.e. GDP). The Eurozone has strict monetary criteria that Greece passed by falsifying its statistics.

[Caedus]

I doubt the EU would allow Greece to do under. Its just that the EU may require IMF backing to prop up the Greek economy. I don't know too much about the Greek economy, but I honestly didn't feel very sorry for them. It just seemed ridiculous that the Greeks would have so many of their citizens dependent on government jobs, as well as all those government services without occasionally lowering the hammer. Reports of Greek officials falsifying their financial records just made me take them less seriously as an institution.

I wonder what will happen next though, because their are other countries in similar straights (Spain, Italy, and Portugal, etc.). This also raises questions in the future on whether it would better for the EU to have a central banking authority to reinforce regulations all the member-states, though I doubt it since that would take away some of the member-states sovereignty. Still IMO the EU desperately needs more central authority to put some cohesion to the EU. Otherwise things will only get worse...

[thod]

Its pretty simple, nobody can spend beyond their means, even Greece. The stories I hear are ridiculous. Hairdressing is considering a hazardous occupation so they can retire at 50 on full state pensions etc. Even the richest countries do not have the money to award everyone money for nothing and Greece is not rich. It is hardly surprising that someone, elsewhere in Europe, that must work, because they cannot get a state pension until aged 68, complains about some Greek civil servants retiring at 40 on huge pensions. State spending by Greece has to come down to what it can collect from it's own people in taxes. If that means fewer public services, then so be it. The Greeks have to get out of this entitlement mindset, they are no more entitled to other people's money than some poor African nation. They have to stop awarding themselves every benefit they can think of without considering who will pay for it.

It is quite clear that the Greek mindset is 'the Germans will pay'. There has not been the exchanges of vitriol between Greece and anyone else because Greeks do no expect the Spanish to pay. In fact Greece has not really given much thought to who will pay, they just grabbed everything they could, promising themselves everything, hoping something would show up. All the street protests against cutbacks are those very people who obtained and want to keep their advantages. Yet there is nobody to pay them anything. The government is broke, it cannot keep it's promises. The Germans, seeing they are being asked to pay, say "why should we pay for beer and prostitutes for the Greeks when have problems". If they do pay, the Greeks will simply start a program to pave the streets of Athens with gold bars. Why not?, the Germans will pay for it.

[Marcus Septim]

Its pretty simple, nobody can spend beyond their means, even Greece. The stories I hear are ridiculous. Hairdressing is considering a hazardous occupation so they can retire at 50 on full state pensions etc. Even the richest countries do not have the money to award everyone money for nothing and Greece is not rich. It is hardly surprising that someone, elsewhere in Europe, that must work, because they cannot get a state pension until aged 68, complains about some Greek civil servants retiring at 40 on huge pensions. State spending by Greece has to come down to what it can collect from it's own people in taxes. If that means fewer public services, then so be it. The Greeks have to get out of this entitlement mindset, they are no more entitled to other people's money than some poor African nation. They have to stop awarding themselves every benefit they can think of without considering who will pay for it.

It is quite clear that the Greek mindset is 'the Germans will pay'. There has not been the exchanges of vitriol between Greece and anyone else because Greeks do no expect the Spanish to pay. In fact Greece has not really given much thought to who will pay, they just grabbed everything they could, promising themselves everything, hoping something would show up. All the street protests against cutbacks are those very people who obtained and want to keep their advantages. Yet there is nobody to pay them anything. The government is broke, it cannot keep it's promises. The Germans, seeing they are being asked to pay, say "why should we pay for beer and prostitutes for the Greeks when have problems". If they do pay, the Greeks will simply start a program to pave the streets of Athens with gold bars. Why not?, the Germans will pay for it.

I reckon ..your German...and that's not the lot of the Greek people,and who told you that will like the street protestors?? Bastards,those are few among many,with no priviliges at all...
Most people feel scamed..but the boil on the soup with the rest

[Tristan]

I reckon ..your German...and that's not the lot of the Greek people,and who told you that will like the street protestors?? Bastards,those are few among many,with no priviliges at all...
Most people feel scamed..but the boil on the soup with the rest

Boil in the soup with the rest, eh.

Sounds like a kids' sleepover. Supposing half the kids are screaming and pummeling each other like drunk banshees in the evening, and the other half are taciturn, the parents are still going to call the party off. Every kid gets sent home, including ones who just got caught up in the excitement, and those that remained calm throughout. This harsh stance by the benefactors is meant to force crowds to become self-regulatory-- particularly, it calls upon the good kids to wield the real power in the room and marginalize the bad kids.

[Marcus Septim]

Boil in the soup with the rest, eh.

Sounds like a kids' sleepover. Supposing half the kids are screaming and pummeling each other like drunk banshees in the evening, and the other half are taciturn, the parents are still going to call the party off. Every kid gets sent home, including ones who just got caught up in the excitement, and those that remained calm throughout. This harsh stance by the benefactors is meant to force crowds to become self-regulatory-- particularly, it calls upon the good kids to wield the real power in the room and marginalize the bad kids.

I will try to translate this to the best of my ability,cause like you said you have no idea how the Greek Economy works,but i live in this hellhole

Fuck it all show watch this
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[Lycurgus]

Do you mean EU or Eurozone? Neither has entry criteria concerning the level of economic development (i.e. GDP). The Eurozone has strict monetary criteria that Greece passed by falsifying its statistics.I suppose Eurozone (since it's in their economic interest, and that's usually the prime motivator), however it would be in the best interest of both the European Union and the Eurozone if Greece didn't go belly up.

[ArtistTyrant]

Greece shouldn't have been allowed to join the EU in the first place, with such a weak balance sheet

[SirJac]

The stories I've read coming from Greece are troubling. If this is what we can expect from the other PIIGS (Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, Spain) then the EU is in deep trouble. Bailing out a single country is expensive, bailing out 5 would break the bank.

I'm expecting that a couple countries will drop the EU before this is out. The problem with a single central bank is that a one policy fits all approach doesn't work when there are such stark differences in economies. The monetary policy being applied to the EU as a whole is harmful to some of the member countries, making their recovery even more difficult. A couple may have to drop out just to regain control over their own monetary policy.

Ugly situation all in all. The rioting doesn't help either but I can understand the pentup anger behind it.

[ArtistTyrant]

i hope Germany and the UK leave the EU, and France is left at the helm of a deteriorating pipe dream of liberal "democratic" governance of Europe :)

[xanodel]

I think it's fairly troubling, and points to some underlying problems with the fundamentals of the monetary policy of the Eurozone, and the Euro in general. The monetary unit appears federal (aka united across the spectrum) but due to sovereignty issues etc, no one is willing to make the economic/banking system actually federalist. They should have established a rule about how bailing out works before this happens, and probably some guarantee that other Euro countries will aid in bailing out a country should it be necessary. Yes, such a policy might be hard to pass, but the advantage is that countries already in the system will be more stringent about who gets to join, plus a joint financial record.

[Mader]

Here's what I heard, all true.

Greece said that if Germany gave back the gold they stole during WWII, then Greece would be just fine.

Germany says that all Greece has to do is sell off a couple of those little islands and that should fix things neatly.

[thod]

Greece said that if Germany gave back the gold they stole during WWII, then Greece would be just fine.

Not possible. Have you not seen the movie where Clint Eastwood, Telly Savalas etc bust open the German bank and take the gold for themselves. All the gold is now in Hollywood. Since Germany was stripped off anything of value, such a claim would provoke Germany to ask for the return of its gold to give to Greece. Then there is all the money Britain threw at Greece. It flooded Greece with gold sovereigns during the war buying services. The Greeks never offered to repay Britain's costs.

[daydreamer]

As the majority of the population of this forum is from America
I would like to know your feedback on the current upheaval in European Economy and the terrible situation that Greece has found herself,in the eye of the tornado

Do we have any hope of survival?(Greece)
Does the EU has any chance of sticking together?(Everyone is looking for its own skin right now,the Germans are whiping the French are condescending,the English are selling everyone out,the Italians are unusually silent..i mean wtf are we a Union or what?)

I dunno gimme your opinion

hasnt Greece had some ongoing economic problems since joining the EU?

i hope that the EU works out. it could be a rough road. but ultimately, the strength of the EU will rely on its ability to strengthen its members. i confess i don't have the best understanding of global economics. but it seems to me that sooner or later economic inequities in europe would have caused problems, although maybe in different ways (maybe not as hard on the population as is the case with Greece at the moment?) hopefully this is an opportunity to strengthen the EU and make it better. just as germany reunited its halves, i think the eu can pull itself together too - if it wants to. hopefully the leaders will see the value.

it is unfortunate that the lives of so many people comes down to economics, ultimately the laws of which seem governed by so few. a lot of that going around at the moment.

[Ytterbium]

Greece have no economy.They've shipping, olives and a huge public sector doing nothing else than taking bribes. Greece really need to see how bad it really is. They shall become completely bankrupt and the only ones responsible are themselves. They need to start all over again and do it right this time.
The former easter-european states of EU have managed to do wonders in few years. Greece have been stuck in a subsidy rain for 30 years without accomplishing anything of value. If Greece doesn't solve this they've destroyed the EU.