Americans arrested in Pakistan as terror suspects

[Zsych]

Some US citizens arrested in Pakistan, while on their way to Afghanistan for possible terrorist acts (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. wRwb3MDNARzZWMDbndfdG9wc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEdGF yA25ld3MueWFob28uY29t/SIG=13uu0fs1q/**To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.*To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

American born Muslims really - teens and early twenties. Going to Afghanistan to 'protect Muslims' somehow.

Lets see, my opinion on this is: They seem like rebellious and idealistic children to me. I'd be impressed if they could handle life in Afghanistan for more than a month or two.

It is my opinion, that kids like this shouldn't be treated as criminals so much as - brats that need to be corrected, and made an example of.

Some degree of punishment, counseling, and putting them back in school. And then news stories - to either show change, or to show their humiliation.


I suspect that if the consequences of such action were sold to young people, and potentially problematic young Muslims, as not potential glory or doing the right thing (in some sense), but rather as something that is likely to bring them a great deal of embarrassment, that might work better to curb such behavior.

You might associate somewhat with someone who died or suffered fighting for his/her cause. Less so with someone who was humiliated and came off as a complete fool - someone who managed to get themselves, treated like a child.

[Angel1]

Prosecute them to the fullest extent. You do the crime, you pay the time. We cannot tell Pakistan to crack down on militants and then complain when they crack down on militant Americans in Pakistan.

[Zsych]

Its not that you can't be harsh with these people. Its more that
1. They are pretty young. Looking back at myself at 18, I'd consider myself then a child.
2. There are probably ways to stop this kind of stupidity from happening.

-- You're not really trying to make martyrs out of these morons that other idiots can be inspired by.

[Angel1]

Its not that you can't be harsh with these people. Its more that
1. They are pretty young. Looking back at myself at 18, I'd consider myself then a child.
2. There are probably ways to stop this kind of stupidity from happening.

-- You're not really trying to make martyrs out of these morons that other idiots can be inspired by.
I wouldn't be for executing them, but that's really Pakistan's decision. We execute people in this country, so we really cannot complain about that. However, from that article is doesn't appear that any of their current charges carry the death penalty.

[Grimstad]

Prosecute them to the fullest extent. You do the crime, you pay the time. We cannot tell Pakistan to crack down on militants and then complain when they crack down on militant Americans in Pakistan.
I've always said, "It's great to be an American.....IN America".

It's unfortunate (maybe) but these "kids" are on their own. Once you're beyond these borders, your rights are phht. Same for those 3 idiot hikers that wandered into Iran. Even if the US didn't have such a negative image, they'd still be SOL.

[Mogura]

You can lose your US citizenship by willingly joining a foreign military. Should definitely be the case if you join a foreign military with hostile intentions towards the US (e.g., North Korea). Foreign-based militias and terrorist organizations could be lumped in with that bunch.

If a fair trial produces evidence that they traveled abroad for such a purpose, strip them of their citizenship...

[whitey]

You can lose your US citizenship by willingly joining a foreign military. Should definitely be the case if you join a foreign military with hostile intentions towards the US (e.g., North Korea). Foreign-based militias and terrorist organizations could be lumped in with that bunch.

If a fair trial produces evidence that they traveled abroad for such a purpose, strip them of their citizenship...

You do know, factually, what is declared when you claim to be a US citizen don't you? The United States is a self-declared corporation for those who are willing to read through the legalese.

The entire United States corporation is a terrorist organization. Its principals and agents engage in acts of terrorism every day, brainwashing, thieving, and all other sorts of organized criminal behavior.

Look at your Census envelopes that have been sent out to you. Look for the little "R" next to the legal term "United States". It is in your face and those of you who have been lazy or recalcitrant will have to deal with this at some point.

[Mogura]

You do know, factually, what is declared when you claim to be a US citizen don't you? The United States is a self-declared corporation for those who are willing to read through the legalese.

The entire United States corporation is a terrorist organization. Its principals and agents engage in acts of terrorism every day, brainwashing, thieving, and all other sorts of organized criminal behavior.

Look at your Census envelopes that have been sent out to you. Look for the little "R" next to the legal term "United States". It is in your face and those of you who have been lazy or recalcitrant will have to deal with this at some point.

Then you can view the act of stripping an individual's US citizenship as an act of "liberation"...

[Angel1]

You can lose your US citizenship by willingly joining a foreign military. Should definitely be the case if you join a foreign military with hostile intentions towards the US (e.g., North Korea). Foreign-based militias and terrorist organizations could be lumped in with that bunch.

If a fair trial produces evidence that they traveled abroad for such a purpose, strip them of their citizenship...
Several court rulings have rendered the only way to lose your citizenship to basically be renouncing your citizenship in front of a State Department/Embassy official (not sure which ones qualify to witness your renunciation).

[Yhor]

Several court rulings have rendered the only way to lose your citizenship to basically be renouncing your citizenship in front of a State Department/Embassy official (not sure which ones qualify to witness your renunciation).

Otherwise, it wouldn't be all that difficult to label someone an enemy of the state, for simply having an opposing view or questioning the governments actions.

[Grimstad]

You do know, factually, what is declared when you claim to be a US citizen don't you? The United States is a self-declared corporation for those who are willing to read through the legalese.

The entire United States corporation is a terrorist organization. Its principals and agents engage in acts of terrorism every day, brainwashing, thieving, and all other sorts of organized criminal behavior.

Look at your Census envelopes that have been sent out to you. Look for the little "R" next to the legal term "United States". It is in your face and those of you who have been lazy or recalcitrant will have to deal with this at some point.
While I'm only mildly interested in reading the legalese, the US government does buy and sell and is the largest employer in the US, but you don't have to be a corp to register a trademark.

[Ray9]

People in their late teens or early twenties seldom travel to foreign countries to perpetrate terrorist acts against their home country or the military of their home country. They are usually more concerned with school and the opposite sex. The sickness of the Muslim culture is so corrupting that it creates traitors and killers from the ranks of its youngest population. None of these individuals would hesitate to murder women, children, or innocent civilians. This is what they live for. There is no hope for any of these traitors because they are poisoned from the inside out by their nefarious religious zealotry. They should be immediately and quietly executed for the good of the civilized world. They are not entitled to a trial-they are entitled to a quick death. There must be something in the water if people can't see this.

[RBM]

Ray9 (The sickness of the Muslim culture)

I don't find that culture any sicker than the US culture. just different sickness is all I see.

[Grimstad]

When psychos believe that [insert deity here] is on their side, they are capable of the most heinous crimes. Always have been, always will be. Christians are no different than Muslims in that respect. A radical fundamentalist Muslim probably has more in common with a radical fundamentalist Christian than your run of the mill Muslim.

[Ray9]

When psychos believe that [insert deity here] is on their side, they are capable of the most heinous crimes. Always have been, always will be. Christians are no different than Muslims in that respect. A radical fundamentalist Muslim probably has more in common with a radical fundamentalist Christian than your run of the mill Muslim.

Radical Christians=Crusades-1095-1291. Spanish Inquisition-1478. In case you haven't noticed we're living in the 21st century.

[SeaCzar]

I see no reason for being lenient with any of these individuals. The claim that they are not terrorists, but jihadists. Their religious sect has indoctrinated them to believe that they are doing the work of God in killing innocents. The whole idea is odious to anyone claiming to be civilized. They should be prosecuted to the full extent of Pakistani law. If Pakistan refuses to do so, the should be extradited to the US for full punishment here. I am not buying this crap of "misguided kids". These bastards deserve whatever punishment is meted out, and I hope it is severe.

[Mogura]

The sickness of the Muslim culture is so corrupting that it creates traitors and killers from the ranks of its youngest population. None of these individuals would hesitate to murder women, children, or innocent civilians.
Yes. Why can't the violent Muslims be more like the peace-loving Americans? After all, school shootings in the US is obviously a product of the Islamic propaganda conspiracy... :rolleyes:

---------- Post added 03-18-2010 at 01:00 PM ----------

Radical Christians=Crusades-1095-1291. Spanish Inquisition-1478. In case you haven't noticed we're living in the 21st century.
Updated. Radical Christians=Crusades-1095-1291, 2003-

[Grimstad]

Radical Christians=Crusades-1095-1291. Spanish Inquisition-1478. In case you haven't noticed we're living in the 21st century.
Sorry, I keep forgetting that some people don't keep abreast of American politics.

[thod]

You can lose your US citizenship by willingly joining a foreign military

The French foreign legion is famous for taking anyone, preferably some hard case running from something. Americans are accepted. I am sure that in WW2 there would have been glory seeking Americans crossing to Canada to get involved prior to the US involvement. Perhaps they have to actually fight against the US.

[Mozzes]

Radical Christians=Crusades-1095-1291. Spanish Inquisition-1478. In case you haven't noticed we're living in the 21st century.

There are plenty of violently insane Christians in modernity. You got anti-abortion violence today, the clusterfuck in Ireland, religion-based participation in the holocaust (such as the Iron Guard), religion-based guerrilla cults in Africa like the Lord's Resistance Army, let's not forget the KKK who, in addition to terrorizing blacks, also focused on Jews and Catholics in order to protect the interest of white protestant Americans (see also Christian Patriots, Lambs of Christ, Army of God, etc). There's the National Liberation Front of Tripura, an armed rebel group in NE India on a mission to spread the kingdom of God and Christ. There are several outlawed Christian militias active in Lebanon, including the Guardians of the Cedars, who advocate among other things the genocidal purging of Palestinians from Lebanon. The Bosnian genocide had religious motivations and justifications. You might also want to look into various Serbian Christian terrorist groups like the Tzar Lazer Guard and White Eagles. The interplay of Russian Orthodox Christianity, ultra-nationalism, racism and paramilitary action in Russia is interesting throughout much of it's modern history and includes harsh persecution of Jews in the late 19th and early 20th century. What about the theater attacks following the 1988 release of the Last Temptation of Christ film which were blamed on Christian fundamentalists? There was also a group of Christians ("Concerned Christians") deported from Israel a while back for planning terrorist attacks on various sacred sites. There's Eric Rudolph, the religious nut who was responsible for among other things the 1996 Olympics bombing. And wasn't there an uproar just a couple of years ago when Pat Robertson called for the assassination of Hugo Chavez? Of course that's not quite as bad as when he suggested that someone should detonate a nuclear device to destroy the state department (how is this guy not considered a terrorist?).

Anyways, I think I've made my point. Just because you're inexcusably ignorant on this topic doesn't mean that modern Christian terrorists don't exist.

[LaoTzu]

There must be something in the water if people can't see this.

That, or perhaps they've washed their own religious zealotry/bigotry out of their eyes.

I've met many Muslims. You should too. Christians could learn a lot from them.

[Ray9]

It's amazing to me that some people nowadays are so infested with self-hatred that they lose all sense of perspective in their view of the world as it is. This is what I mean about something in the water. If attacked by an enemy they react by looking for ways to justify the attack instead of just recognizing evil for its own sake. This is a sorry state of affairs and one that does not bode well for the future of free men and women. My contempt for people like this is pushed aside by the sheer pity I feel for them. One wonders how people like this come to this miserable state of mind where cultural and moral suicide are preferable to standing in defense of one's own principals. I'm very sorry for people like this. Their skewed vision of reality is a disability that dooms them.

[Yhor]

It's amazing to me that some people nowadays are so infested with self-hatred that they lose all sense of perspective in their view of the world as it is. This is what I mean about something in the water. If attacked by an enemy they react by looking for ways to justify the attack instead of just recognizing evil for its own sake. This is a sorry state of affairs and one that does not bode well for the future of free men and women. My contempt for people like this is pushed aside by the sheer pity I feel for them. One wonders how people like this come to this miserable state of mind where cultural and moral suicide are preferable to standing in defense of one's own principals. I'm ver sorry for people like this. Their skewed vision of reality is a disability that dooms them.

In general, I agree with your statement, adamantly. However...
If attacked by an enemy they react by looking for ways to justify the attack instead of just recognizing evil for its own sake.If you don't at least try to understand why they attack you, you'll never come to a solution to defeat them or reconcile, especially if you are as obstinate as they are. Initial POWs are usually questioned to conclude what the enemies motives are, from there it leads to questioning on future attacks. And what of justified attacks? Sometimes countries/individuals should mind their own fucking business if another isn't committing acts against humanity or directly interfering with them. If someone comes into my house and tells me what to do, I'm kicking their ass all the way out the way they came in (if I'm capable).

[whitey]

Then you can view the act of stripping an individual's US citizenship as an act of "liberation"...

Actually, US citizenship does not factually exist. Citizenship implies a required loyalty and duty in reciprocation for protection. And the US courts, in several instances, have declared that they have no duty to protect. So, since one half of the requirements for legitimate Citizenship and Governance are lacking, the relationship is not whole.

The whole "citizenship" thing is in people's heads. It's part and parcel of statist brainwashing. Things which are not factually true can only exist in people's heads, hence the requirement for attitude conditioning via the schools.

---------- Post added 03-18-2010 at 08:30 PM ----------

While I'm only mildly interested in reading the legalese, the US government does buy and sell and is the largest employer in the US, but you don't have to be a corp to register a trademark.


Well if you don't want to read legalese, you can go to dunn and bradstreets page which lists corporations on the world market. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Just plug in "office of the president" as the business name, and put DC for the address. You'll see the corporation listed. You can also do this with incorporated city's, municipalities (ie: the corporate revenue officers aka cops), and the US army, us navy, etc.

All of those things are corporations. If people spent time researching and comprehending what it means they'd drop the whole "government" issue. They aren't investors in the corporations they are the suckers who pay into the corporations whether they get a service or not.

---------- Post added 03-18-2010 at 08:34 PM ----------

When psychos believe that [insert deity here] is on their side, they are capable of the most heinous crimes. Always have been, always will be. Christians are no different than Muslims in that respect. A radical fundamentalist Muslim probably has more in common with a radical fundamentalist Christian than your run of the mill Muslim.

Ohh madlibs!

When psychos believe that Government is on their side, they are capable of the most heinous crimes.

More people have died as a result of secular governments than of any other power structure. I love how the indoctrinated miss that and home in on creator based belief systems (government based systems involve worship of man).

---------- Post added 03-18-2010 at 08:42 PM ----------

The sickness of the Muslim culture is so corrupting that it creates traitors and killers from the ranks of its youngest population. None of these individuals would hesitate to murder women, children, or innocent civilians. This is what they live for. There is no hope for any of these traitors because they are poisoned from the inside out by their nefarious religious zealotry. They should be immediately and quietly executed for the good of the civilized world. They are not entitled to a trial-they are entitled to a quick death. There must be something in the water if people can't see this.

You're totally brainwashed. This is just one more thing being used by one power faction to get the "Christian" west killing the "Muslim" east. You should turn off the TV, Hannity, Rush, or what ever other mainstream BS source of info you rely on. Edu-tainment is pure bullshit and those who consume it sound like parrots.

[Yhor]

I'm not going to get into the rest of it, but the US government, state governments, and most municipalities truly are corporations. Have you ever gone through a town and on their city/town limits sign show population and "Unincorporated"? That's usually because the town/city have opted to manage funds without interest rates from banks, use true participation among it's own 'citizens' to make decisions on law and order and infrastructure, and keep bureaucracy out of life sustaining decisions (at the local level anyway). I lived in an unincorporated town in Georgia for several years and I can't think of the first complaint I had with it, however, the city bordering us was attempting a forced annex year after year, and have since annexed the town.

All said and done, even knowing it's all a corporation, I still consider myself a 'citizen'.

[LaoTzu]

If attacked by an enemy they react by looking for ways to justify the attack instead of just recognizing evil for its own sake. This is a sorry state of affairs and one that does not bode well for the future of free men and women.

This 'fight' does not equate with the great civil and moral battles of the past. (ex:Civil Rights/Slavery/WWII) Were there a real enemy, you'd see people stand up and fight. But this enemy is a manufactured one... the sooner you realize it, the sooner you'll get a better nights sleep. You slagging on an entire culture is non-productive, and more frightening for the future. Your end-game is nothing more than full-out battle between ideologies. It's unwinnable, and irrational to fight for such reasons.


In this particular case, I'm happy to see those kids facing justice. There are many ways to fight oppression. Fighting a terrorist war has no honour associated with it. It is an admission of failure. Had they gone over to help rebuild... I'd sing a different tune.

[Zsych]

I don't like the idea of stripping citizenship - if only because I'm not sure a state deserves to have any rights on people its not affiliated with.

An American should be expected to follow American law - not an non-American.

(alright, that's more just a feeling than a developed thought)


Personally, I doubt these kids had anything resembling sensible plans in their heads. Still, I'm not sure you could call the bands of Taliban inside Afghanistan (while they're in Afghanistan) terrorists. They're kinda the local military - or militaries of different factions fighting for power.

I think the fighting style within Afghanistan is probably also not what you'd typically associate with terrorism. Its probably more guerrilla warfare, with the intent of winning and taking land.

Of course, since they were going, with the supposed intention of protecting Muslims. I suppose they may have expected to fight non-Afghan forces.

--

I wonder... its unlikely that these kids could easily be made part of a militia in a meaningful way, considering that they wouldn't speak the same language, not be used to the miserable lives in Afghanistan, and generally speaking just be plain useless.

Would you really take such people into a military group knowing that they'd slow things down and be a liability?

Thus to what I wonder... Facebook scam? Reel in idiots who are willing to give money? They might be worth keeping if their faces bring in more money, but otherwise, lets say a militant group did have them... they may have some value as hostages (to get money from their relatives)... or a militant group might just kill them - and say that they were martyred or something.

I'm sure you could scam kids by telling them that they are contributing to something noble and helping save lives and remove oppression... feeding into their emotions, into their desire to be important and make a difference.

Such a technique might work better in general on young people from lower-income homes who have no great prospects in their lives, or expectations of achieving anything worthwhile.

[astrolite]

Most of the "martyrs" are young men, so using their age as a defense is conflicting. They received a similar martyrdom education in the USA as they would in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Europe, etc - the doctrine is the same regardless of location.

What strikes me as odd is that they went there instead of launching an attack on US soil. Alexandria is like 5 minutes from the Pentagon, 10 minutes from DC.