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eternaltriangle
03-20-2008, 07:51 PM
So I just listened to Obama's speech, and, as much as it was good and cerebral, there was something missing, just as I think there is something missing in Obama's candidacy. I recognize that the issues I am going to talk about are sensitive ones, and as a Canadian (and an introvert) I may say something offensive, as I don't have as much experience talking about these sorts of issues - I really don't mean to slander anybody.

I mean, lets follow the logical (as opposed to the chronological) train of Obama's speech:
1. Somewhere around the middle of the speech, Obama gets to the point (and the motivation of the speech. He discusses, as the Wright video made evident, that racism exists in both white and black America.
2. Obama goes a bit deeper, pointing out that racism on both sides has roots in reality (eg. genuine fears of crime, genuine legacy of slavery and a zero-sum mentality for poor people).
3. So his next logical step is that America should fix those problems - and here he is fairly lacking. Obama has no substantive plan that any cookie-cutter Democrat would not also endorse. Spend more money on schools, maintain the status quo on just about everything. Obama promises transformative change on the race issue, but there isn't a lot there in terms of ideas.
4. But there is a more pernicious undertone to the speech, that you miss if you just follow it chronologically. Obama starts the speech by discussing his post-racial identity (it is because he is mixed, contrary to Ferraro, not because he is black that he is able to embody post-racial harmony). He doesn't link that to his ability to get to change, but I think the implication is there - and Obama is fully aware that his identity is at the core of his claim to be a harmonizer. The problem is that the one thing he gets from his identity, is palpable credibility to implement policies that WILL chafe entrenched interest groups, and his platform simply doesn't do that.

There are a lot of policy options that could at least help the situation. For instance, the Florida affirmative action model bases affirmative action in universities on income, not race. That approach will probably result in similar numbers of African American students in universities (since they are over-represented among poor people), while at the same time de-racializing affirmative action. It is a problem when white people assume that blacks are where they are due to affirmative action - one that exacerbates the zero-sum game Obama eloquently talked about.

Another idea worth talking about in my books is high school education vouchers exclusively for low income individuals (or even exclusively for African Americans, as kind of a free market version of busing). Vouchers for education have always struck me as a good policy because they offer parents choice, but a costly one, in that the major beneficiaries tend to be the rich parents (or religious parents, and I am not sure if subsidizing parochial education is a good raison d'etat - though at least it is just subsidizing, where I'm from the government actually runs a fully fledged Catholic school board) that already send their kids to private schools. Moreover, vouchers would create a market that would cater to the particular needs of African American and/or low income students (depending on how you set the policy) in education. There seem to have been some successes with charter schools, and past experiments like Harlem prep.

However there is this other problem I have noticed, living as a non-American in the United States. Black students and white students rarely talk to each other, and a lot of the liberal white folks I meet do have pretty racist attitudes behind closed doors. There is a fear down here (and I think I have it too, somewhat) that doesn't exist (or is at least less pervasive) in Canada. It isn't the fear of large black men lurking in the shadows (that exists too but is a symptom of the fear I am talking about). Rather it is a fear that in conversation you will say something that will be perceived as racist (the ultimate stigma for liberal white Americans). This, on top of the class divide, keeps blacks and whites apart. I was recently on Indianapolis public transit - now keep in mind that Indiana is about 90% white (according to wikipedia Indianapolis is 25% black), yet I was the only white person on the bus (greyhound is similar). When you consider America's environmental and infrastructure problems stemming from inadequate public transit and too many cars, after riding on that bus it is hard not to think of this as a racial issue (white Americans don't want to ride on the bus, therefore they drive cars - in Bloomington, which is mostly white, there is actually a pretty good transit system - albeit partly because it is a college town).

With respect to the lack of dialog, I think it has a lot to do with the American attitude to race and difference, which is purportedly "integrationist". eg. should make no assumptions about others, blacks should integrate into the white community, and people "shouldn't see colour". Colour-blindness, however, is too impossible a standard, that ultimately frightens off inter-racial dialog. Out of a fear of failing to live up to that standard, white Americans avoid blacks.

Living in Canada I was a skeptic of what Canadians call "multiculturalism" (which is less integrationist - it accepts that there will be different groups with different values, and the government subsidizes Ukrainian folk dances and that sort of thing), but I think I am being won over to that model. Our Canadian model sets a lower standard for interaction, but that lower standard enables dialog.

"So, what kind of food do people in your culture eat" etc. It is when you ask those sometimes patronizing and othering questions that you learn to think of other people as individuals, and not the sum of a set of stereotypes. Whites in America don't ask those questions out of fear, and have only Hollywood and P. Diddy to rely upon for their stereotypes about African Americans - all of which solidifies the "scary black man" mythos (I suppose a strange corollary of this notion is that Chris Rock is actually an agent of racial healing, by identifying differences that exist, but reducing their salience by laughing about them).

Nausved
03-20-2008, 10:09 PM
You bring up some interesting points, and I agree for the most part. I'd like to tack on a few (entirely anecdotal) ideas of my own.

I am a white woman, and I've lived in Atlanta (approximately 60% black, 33% white) my entire life, save my time in college. Racism is not as visible in Atlanta as it is in other places, in my experience, and I think that's due to the degree to which blacks and whites come into contact with one another (though this largely depends on which neighborhood you're in).

There are some cultural differences between white America and black America, but they're really very minor in my experience. They are largely perceived to be stronger than they really are, and more encompassing than they really are. In reality, the cultural differences within the races are much larger than those between them.

A few years ago, I was in a longterm relationship with a black man (who remains my closest friend today). While we were together, others would frequently asked if it was difficult being in an interracial relationship—if it was hard to adapt to each other's cultural backgrounds, or if there was a lot of outside pressure on us to split up—but I had to answer honestly that it was not difficult at all.

Our relationship was not the least bit controversial. His family immediately took to me, and mine immediately took to him. Culturally, we were very compatible. We had grown up listening to the same music, watching the same TV shows, eating the same foods, etc., etc. We even discovered that we knew a lot of the same people. Religiously and politically, we weren't so different, either; my views match his much better than they match, say, my grandmother's or my cousin's. The only cultural discontinuity I could see was that he was originally a Northerner and I was a Southerner; this meant that I was more sensitive to the cold and he to the heat, and that I pronounced "aunt" as "ant" and he as "ont".

Because of my experiences, I really can't understand the roadblocks that we as a nation keep stumbling over when it comes to interracial relations. They're only mirages.

I do get the impression that many white people are needlessly afraid of offending black people, but it goes the other way as well. I recall in 9th grade (where I was one of two white girls in a school of 1300 students) that several of my classmates would go to great lengths to avoid using the term "white" to refer to myself or one of the white teachers. Instead, many of them used "European American". When I asked one of them about this, she explained that since she was always hearing white people refer to black people as "African Americans", she had simply figured that white people must be offended by references to skin color.

It's an innocent enough example, but it reveals to me that there is an abysmal amount of dialogue between blacks and whites, particularly where the demographics are skewed one way or the way.

This is not a problem that a president could fix, but it is a problem that a president (or presidential candidate) could encourage us to fix. We desperately need that encouragement now.

ShaiGar
03-21-2008, 05:36 AM
the answer to all our sociological problems lie within /b/

rwyatt365
03-21-2008, 08:21 AM
First, so that there is a common grounds for discussion, I offer this definition of racism from the Random House Dictionary;

Racism (noun);
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Given that, I would agree that there is indeed racism (among both blacks and whites, among others) in America. It runs the gamut from “good, old-fashioned” racism (exhibited by white supremacists, and Lewis Farrakhan adherents) to subtle hints (why is that salesperson following me around the store?). The roots of it are deep and highly ingrained in almost every aspect of American society. Don’t believe it? Ask yourself, why is Barak Obama’s race of any concern to anybody (and don’t think for a moment that it’s not)? Whether it’s for a positive reason or a negative one (or even to express that it’s a neutral reason), it means that there IS a reason! Thus, race is an issue.

The “American Model” is, as you pointed out, racial integration - which means “you become us”, the minority assumes the characteristics of the majority. The failure of that model is the fact that all that resist it (i.e. refuse to “become us”) are marginalized. It was true of the Irish, the Italians, the Chinese, the Blacks and now the Hispanic cultures. Only those that readily accepted (and were easily acceptable by) the majority culture found the going smooth.

The hiccup with blacks is that we’re SO DAMNED DIFFERENT!! Until that Irishman or Italian opened his mouth, you couldn’t tell him from that good Anglo-Saxon, Caucasoid stock and many took great pains to eliminate that difference. Even the Asians cold be “forgiven” their almond-shaped eyes ‘cause they’re so gosh-darned exotic! But it’s pretty hard to “pass” when you can be spotted from miles away – our darker skin makes us hard to overlook. If the Canadian outlook is less integrationist, then I applaud that. Accepting difference seems to be a more realistic framework for human interaction.

As long as any society isolates and accentuates differences there will be the kind of tensions that you speak of between the different groups. Everyone has natural curiosities about differences; is your hair soft like mine is, is EVERYTHING on you that same color, does your food taste as weird as it looks…and on, and on. If racial tension exists then those questions can’t be asked without “giving the wrong signal”, which tends to increase the tension, which makes other questions harder to ask, which completes a feedback loop that soon gets out of control. That is where America is today – we’ve become an un-damped control system that’s gone into resonance (how’s that for engineering-speak) – we can’t speak frankly about race without being confronted as a racist (whether black or white). So, we sit and stew in our own preconceptions and myths.

A solution? Personally, I don’t advocate color-blindness – I think that’s pointless and counter-productive. You can’t be blind to the color of my skin, any more than I can of yours, it’s a fact of life. What I DO advocate is color-awareness (not color-sensitivity). And awareness is not simply noticing that I am different, but seeking to understand and appreciate those differences. Let me be aware of you as a person, as an individual and like you as such (or dislike you, as the case may be). But not because you are different, but because you are YOU. If we could be color-aware (or race-aware), then we might be able to get over this crap.

SeaCzar
03-22-2008, 02:33 PM
rwyatt365. Question. Did you see the sermons of Obama's pastor, and what did you think? I considered it a racist harangue. When he said "God damn America", I wanted to take him out, and his color had nothing to do with it. Kindly note that I am a white male, and extremely leery of asking this question.

Nausved
03-22-2008, 03:47 PM
rwyatt365. Question. Did you see the sermons of Obama's pastor, and what did you think? I considered it a racist harangue. When he said "God damn America", I wanted to take him out, and his color had nothing to do with it. Kindly note that I am a white male, and extremely leery of asking this question.

While you wait for an answer, I have a question for you.

Why do you consider Wright's sermons racist? What, specifically, did he say that strikes you as racist? (I ask because I failed to be offended in any way, and I am curious as to why others were offended.)

SeaCzar
03-22-2008, 04:10 PM
I found it offensive to all Americans when he said "God damn America". What I found racist was his reference that HIV was specifically developed by whites as a means to curb the black population. This has got to be considered as racist as anything the KKK could come up with.

Nausved
03-22-2008, 05:15 PM
I found it offensive to all Americans when he said "God damn America". What I found racist was his reference that HIV was specifically developed by whites as a means to curb the black population. This has got to be considered as racist as anything the KKK could come up with.

Actually, he did not claim it was invented by whites. He claimed it was invented by the government.

His speeches are decidedly inflammatory, if you are offended by criticisms of the government (even if those criticisms are silly conspiracy theories). But I still can't pinpoint what makes them specifically racist.

SeaCzar
03-22-2008, 05:33 PM
He may have said "government", but the implication is clear.

Religion is divisive enough without this sort of invective.

Nausved
03-22-2008, 05:50 PM
He may have said "government", but the implication is clear.

I guess this is what it comes down to, then. I picked up on no such implication whatsoever. I never would have imagined that particular line against our government as a veiled attack against me.

I think a lot of Wright's charges against the government are spot on—so maybe I just don't see the government as representative of my race.

I guess I have a tendency to take words at face value...? Or maybe I'm just tough-skinned? :huh:

ShaiGar
03-22-2008, 09:03 PM
he's certainly inflammatory... but I cannot find very much that's actually wrong with what he's saying. the chickens DID come home to roost, that WAS the fault of the USA. Why should god bless the USA? are you aware of the actions the US has taken in the past and is taking now? God destroyed Sodom for a hell of a lot less.


rwyatt365. Question. Did you see the sermons of Obama's pastor, and what did you think?

What does the priest of an individual have to do with their political beliefs?
The church I go to is run by a very very socialist liberal (not libertarian) INFP... His opinions and mine are very very different, on just about everything.

When we want to understand einsteins theory of relativity, do we go and ask einsteins retarded uncle who lives in an asylum?

eternaltriangle
03-22-2008, 09:25 PM
I think where Wright is perceived as being racist is simply in that he does not buy into the "I don't see color" standard that is at the core of rhetoric in America (but far from the reality). So it was more the "Hillary ain't never been called..." statement than the others. Most of Wright's comments were probably unfair and over-the-top, but not particularly untrue (the CIA did sell drugs to African Americans, for instance). The event did not really affect my opinion of Obama, although I disliked aspects of his speech on the issue (Obama analyzed racism as a problem with deep roots, but failed to outline a plan for addressing the roots).

I do think the church somebody chooses is relevant. Religion reflects core beliefs - the beliefs that one wants to inculcate in one's two daughters, for instance. Obama's membership in that church, however, might have been necessitated by his entry into Chicago politics as a community organizer and later a politician (since black churches are an important organizing agent).

A lot of people I know didn't like Bush from the start, in part because he was a born-again Christian. Given his deeply held religious beliefs, he was more likely to appoint anti-Roe Vs. Wade judges to the supreme court, more likely to veto stem cell research and more likely to ban partial birth abortion (all of which he did do). So there can be legitimate policy reasons for looking at a candidate's religion. It shouldn't be about their identity, eg. "I just don't like mormons", but religion is one of the many ways candidates can signal their intentions and heartfelt beliefs (McCain switched to the baptist church from an episcopalian one, which may have a lot to do with saying to the Christian right: I'm with you guys).





eternaltriangle added to this post, 2 minutes and 4 seconds later...

What would be interesting, would be to hear some of Obama's dialog with his priest. It is far-fetched to assume that a parish is on-side with the priest on every issue. I was raised in a Catholic family, and told by my mom that I'd damn well better use a condom (and that abortion was a-okay in her books).

rwyatt365
03-23-2008, 10:13 AM
Concerning Rev Wright's sermon, I have a very stong opinion based on personal experience.

Several years ago I was a highly active member of a church. I was a respected member, leader of the choir, member of the user board, and deacon. I studied my bible every day and took copius notes during sermons - which occurred Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday, and every major holiday. I resepcted my pastor, and what he had to say in his sermons.

I said all of that to say this...my pastor was not always right. As a matter of fact, whenever he strayed into current events and political commentary, he was often wrong. I have a good mind and when it came to things like that I trusted it beyond the words and opinions of my pastor. I think that any intelligent person would do the same.

So, when the pastor of Obama's church speaks out on his opinion of why America is in the state that it is, and spews venom from the pulpit I would think that any intelligent person would form their own reaction to that. Had Obama blindly accepted what his pastor was preaching, I would be a lot more upset with him (Obama) than most people are at the current situation. Personally, I see this as a non-issue - or, more correctly, a made-up issue. Finding something to condemn Obama in lieu of something more concrete. My take on this is that Obama's criticas are blaming him for the words of his pastor - words that Obama himself didn't speak and words that Obama has decried.

Just my $0.02 since you asked.

BTW - I left that church 10 years ago.