INTJ men vs. INTJ women

[Uytuun]

This is inspired by something I read in another tread, namely:

I've noticed another clear dividing line between the various INTJs: INTJ males do not behave the same way as INTJ females would. INTJ males are very masculine, often very conservative (both socially and politically), very self-assured. They often saw the mere presence of a "feminine" ENFP male like me as a severe threat, and some made me understand this rather vehemently. For some of them, I was simply "disgusting".

INTJ females, on the other hand, are quite weird and a lot more difficult to decipher. While their male counterparts are often very domineering, they are not (even if they are not submissive either). I could get along pretty well with most of them. I even noticed a real trend of "complementarity" between their minds and mine, how we completed each other. We often arrived to the same conclusion, but with different pathways. Frightening, isn't it?

I do get what he's getting at, actually. More conservative, more Te, less open-minded, possibly socially more challenged or more bitter...sometimes I get that impression from male INTJs. What do you guys think? Are there any significant differences? If so, what are they in your opinion?

[sriv]

I think the INTJ generally comes out more intensely in the male than in the woman. Everyone knows that woman have better mental health than men so they probably tend to be more precociously balanced. My female cousin is an INTJ, but in her it is less defined than in me. It is easier to get her emotional and respect different ideas. I would simply throw away a worthless, impractical idea given from a friend, but she would probably give it undeserving credit and try to think of a better idea.

It is not that men are more close-minded, because we try to think of all practical possibilities and appreciate good ideas. It is just that we are more harsh on bad ideas that waste our time and might get more aggressive occasionally.

[AgentofGaming]

Who said INTJ males come in one flavour?
Some are more closed, some are more assertive, some are more masculine.

I'd agree that I'm more socially conservative (call me idealistic if you have to), and more socially challenged but I don't see how I match the other descriptions. People are different and so are INTJs.

As far as people on the forum, I can tell there are very aggressive people, this is because I'm not aggressive at all.

[vkut79]

I'm a male INTJ. I'm liberal, not conservative, both socially and politically. I consider myself to be pretty open-minded. I'm not super "masculine" and definitely not "domineering". I don't have super social skills, but I wouldn't consider myself socially challenged. Being an INTJ I don't use my social skills too often anyway. So I'm not sure about that stereotype.

[searcheagle]

Who said INTJ males come in one flavour?
Some are more closed, some are more assertive, some are more masculine.

I'd agree that I'm more socially conservative (call me idealistic if you have to), and more socially challenged but I don't see how I match the other descriptions. People are different and so are INTJs.

As far as people on the forum, I can tell there are very aggressive people, this is because I'm not aggressive at all.

I think that the stereotype of the INTJ is a male superachieving Genius who use their drive and intelligence to achieve great power, whether as a leader of a corporation or government.

If a male does not look like this, they don't stick out as an INTJ. The only people who stick out

[Jgib5328]

I think that the stereotype of the INTJ is a male superachieving Genius who use their drive and intelligence to achieve great power, whether as a leader of a corporation or government.

If a male does not look like this, they don't stick out as an INTJ. The only people who stick out

Most stereotypes have some truth to them.

[Colette]

Yes, I too have noticed a trend (especially on this board) for the INTJ males to be socially and morally more conservative (and more 'traditional') than the women. I agree there is also a tendency for the INTJ male to see things in 'black and white' (also a risk for the female, but because of the complexity of most women's lives nowadays, I think the tendency becomes less pronounced, than it is with INTJ men).

[AgentofGaming]

I think that the stereotype of the INTJ is a male superachieving Genius who use their drive and intelligence to achieve great power, whether as a leader of a corporation or government.

If a male does not look like this, they don't stick out as an INTJ. The only people who stick out
I guess that stereotype looks about right.
but the goal is not to stick out, there's less resistance when usurping is done subtly.

[Nausved]

That's the impression I get from this board.

The only other INTJ I know in person is my dad, and he's not really that way. He is extremely intelligent, extremely confident, extremely liberal, extremely eccentric, and extremely open to others' opinions (though he has no trouble dismissing bad ideas). He is very assertive, but not the least bit aggressive. I have only seen him angry three times in the last 22 years. On the other hand, I don't think there has been a single day in these 22 years that he hasn't gotten into an argument with someone (usually me :rolleyes:).

He was declared "an honorary woman" by his female friends in college, yet he was too oblivious to realize that they were pursuing him. He didn't find out that he was in such high demand until my mother finally told him how she had had to go around asserting her claim on him.

He is not at all socially awkward, though he might have been when he was younger. As far as I can tell, he is universally well-liked by everyone who meets him, though he never socializes with anyone unless he has to. When searching for a job, he is usually hired within a few days of starting his search, and he quickly rises to management positions (though he does not actually enjoy power or responsibility). People who work under him are loyal to him, and many of them have followed him from one workplace to another.

When I came to this board, I was surprised that there weren't very many people here more like my dad or more like myself. There seems to be a lot of bitterness, paranoia, and aggression here—even among a few of the women.

[Jgib5328]

When I came to this board, I was surprised that there weren't very many people here more like my dad or more like myself. There seems to be a lot of bitterness, paranoia, and aggression here—even among a few of the women.

I'm sorry we can't all be as perfect as your father, but you should realize that INTJ is just a preference. All of the INTJs here have their own unique 'personality'. I have interests that a lot of people here probably don't and vice versa. We just share preferences when dealing with the world. We aren't the same, just similar.

[Colette]

I'm sorry we can't all be as perfect as your father, but you should realize that INTJ is just a preference. All of the INTJs here have their own unique 'personality'. I have interests that a lot of people here probably don't and vice versa. We just share preferences when dealing with the world. We aren't the same, just similar.

Yeah agreed. I think any 'trends' we think we notice, can only ever be anecdotal. There's also a generational issue too, I think. One thing I noticed when I used to visit the INTP board, was a sort of moral conservatism I wasn't expecting to find, but I suspect it's actually not an INTx issue, but more a generational one. Amongst my peer group (people in their 30s, early 40s), there doesn't appear to be the kind of prevalent moral conservatism that I notice in many of today's younger generation.

I wonder if this conservatism is a reaction against the sort of moral liberalism of this generation's parents (the children of the '60s, early 70s).

Thoughts?

[AgentofGaming]

I wonder if this conservatism is a reaction against the sort of moral liberalism of this generation's parents (the children of the '60s, early 70s).

Thoughts?
My parents were born in the 60's.

Maybe these play a factor:
My culture is conservative and collectivist (Cantonese-Confucian)
My parents were disciplinarian
I'm idealistic
I'm cautious
My paternal grandparents are also very conservative

I'm not sure but maybe being a bit more socially withdrawn plays a role too.

I forgot to mention social conservative as in I live that kind of lifestyle, not that I go and interfere in what people should do in their lives kind of conservative.

[Bluestocking]

Women are socialized to be more attuned to making nice and forming relationships, so that's probably what's going on. It's more socially acceptable for an INTJ male to be INTJ. When I am acting particularly INTJish, I get called a "bitch." Hence, I learned how to put on a mask and am sometimes able to pass as a merely socially awkward female, at least some of the time.

[Colette]

When I am acting particularly INTJish, I get called a "bitch." Hence, I learned how to put on a mask and am sometimes able to pass as a merely socially awkward female, at least some of the time.

Yes. I've also noticed that very 'conciliatory' mask being adopted here too, by women, in debates involving men. There is a tendency to present a view as a tentative or open one, or to use heavy qualifiers, and also to seek to appease or even 'flatter', in a sense, the person who has put forward the opposing view.

I don't think INTJ women need to do this. If others can't accept the way we are and prefer to be, that's their problem, not ours.

[sriv]

My parents were born in the 60's.

Maybe these play a factor:
My culture is conservative and collectivist (Cantonese-Confucian)
My parents were disciplinarian
I'm idealistic
I'm cautious
My paternal grandparents are also very conservative

I'm not sure but maybe being a bit more socially withdrawn plays a role too.

I forgot to mention social conservative as in I live that kind of lifestyle, not that I go and interfere in what people should do in their lives kind of conservative.

My parents are Indian and politically democratic but conservative in nature and mindset. I have taken on many of the traits of my parents as well. Sometimes I wonder if my parents designed me to be as perfect as possible or if I designed myself to be perfect in their eye. Maybe men have a stronger motivation or parents push their sons harder or with more discipline than their daughters.

[Nausved]

I'm sorry we can't all be as perfect as your father, but you should realize that INTJ is just a preference. All of the INTJs here have their own unique 'personality'. I have interests that a lot of people here probably don't and vice versa. We just share preferences when dealing with the world. We aren't the same, just similar.

My father is hardly perfect. He simply influenced my concept of how people of our sort might feel and behave. When I joined this board, I was surprised to discover that these mental preferences could lead so many people in such different directions. Some of these directions I don't agree with—but that's just a personal preference (largely based on my upbringing, I'm sure). I did not mean to offend you.

[Darkmist]

The only other INTJ I know in person is my dad, and he's not really that way.


Quite a bit like my 21 year old INTJ son. Raised by two strong women in differing respects might have something to do with it. I'm INTJ and my daughter is ENFP. Or maybe he's just found his path to himself.

[AgentofGaming]

My parents are Indian and politically democratic but conservative in nature and mindset. I have taken on many of the traits of my parents as well. Sometimes I wonder if my parents designed me to be as perfect as possible or if I designed myself to be perfect in their eye. Maybe men have a stronger motivation or parents push their sons harder or with more discipline than their daughters.
In most cultures, the eldest male still carries the largest responsibility in representing the family. So it's not too surprising if your parents want you perfect. The self-push depends on the person's ambitions, but again in standard cultures men are more likely the ones encouraged to be ambitious.

I used to think I was the good stuff in high school. After being placed in undergraduate engineering I'm just an average guy. It's better not to boast in the first place than boast and be put in your place.

[Uytuun]

Gaah, I wrote a whole epistle and it's gone now, anyway...

What I wanted to say was that there's also a striking difference between what they require from a mate. Male INTJs - in agreement with the prevalent gender roles and the previously mentioned alpha male-ness - do not necessarily seem to need a mate that's their intellectual "equal" (although they may get irritated after a while), whereas for female INTJs that's probably one of the most important factors.

My dad is also INTJ and he's really rather conservative when it comes to women (not when it's about me, though) and also in general. He married an ESFJ (possibly P back then) - my mum - and although he gets irritated with her irrationality, he does love the way she looks after him and the kids, tends to the household and does not criticise him fundamentally (nag, now that's another thing). In a way he's also rather domineering with her. The other night, they were talking and he agreed with her that he would not be able to deal with a woman whose priority is her career. That's really more the stereotypical relationship, I guess. Other things that come to mind are: less Ni, more Te, less imagination and creativity, more factual, robust problem-solving...or at least that's my interpretation of the behaviour.

My ex-BF was also INTJ and he exhibited similar conservative tendencies. As you see, it didn't work out.

As for me, my relationship ideas are a lot more unconventional. What I would like is an intelligent, extraordinary (!) and interesting guy, not necessarily a provider, but a partner. I don't want the whole prefab house-garden-baby-dog scenario. N is an important letter for INTJ females I think, since you need someone that can look beyond gender/relationship stereotypes.

Other differences:

As an unconventional gender-type combo, INTJ females are probably more open to other/new perspectives...perhaps it's easier for us to let go of the system?

Also, my dad is waaaaay less weird than I am. Of course age plays a role, but still, it's very striking.

[appease] What are male INTJs better at than their female counterparts do you think?

P.S. Yes, I am aware that I'm generalising. [/appease :p]

No seriously, I'm curious because I couldn't really think of many advantages INTJ men might have over INTJ women. Apart from being men etc.

[Alcuin]

Uytuun, I think you pretty much nailed it there, and cover why I'm not drawn to dating INTJ men. I look for an equal, but I admire someone who has a fresh perspective (that they can back up). Most INTJ men I've met display that 'alpha male' personality, especially in a friendly debate, and always find a way to interrupt or discount alternative opinions.

[TheLastMohican]

[appease] What are male INTJs better at than their female counterparts do you think?

P.S. Yes, I am aware that I'm generalising. [/appease :p]

No seriously, I'm curious because I couldn't really think of many advantages INTJ men might have over INTJ women. Apart from being men etc.

Nothing that I can think of.

They are different, I think, but I cannot quite put my finger on that either. I actually think I get along a bit better with the INTJ females on this forum, even though I am INTJ male. (In real everyday life, I have nothing in common with most females. They are foreign to me.) But here, oddly, I think some of the natural masculinity exaggerates some INTJ traits, so an INTJ male is more likely be bull-headed. The females seem a bit more tempered and willing to engage in diplomatic reasoning, while not changing their beliefs. (I see a strong difference between searching for common ground and working from there in a persuasive manner and shutting out logical arguments after a point and resorting to off-subject jabs to beat the opponent into submission.)

These are, of course, general statements. I see plenty of exceptions around, but I think that overall female INTJ's might be the ideal type. (And since I am an INTJ male, that means I am really impressed with you all.)

[sriv]

In most cultures, the eldest male still carries the largest responsibility in representing the family. So it's not too surprising if your parents want you perfect. The self-push depends on the person's ambitions, but again in standard cultures men are more likely the ones encouraged to be ambitious.

I used to think I was the good stuff in high school. After being placed in undergraduate engineering I'm just an average guy. It's better not to boast in the first place than boast and be put in your place.

I meant as perfect as was possible for me.

[Rohsiph]

I actually think I get along a bit better with the INTJ females on this forum, even though I am INTJ male. (In real everyday life, I have nothing in come with most females. They are foreign to me.) .

I don't know how to compellingly add to this idea, other than to say I agree whole-heartedly.

[appease] What are male INTJs better at than their female counterparts do you think?

P.S. Yes, I am aware that I'm generalising. [/appease :p]

No seriously, I'm curious because I couldn't really think of many advantages INTJ men might have over INTJ women. Apart from being men etc.

Well, there's the having a penis thing . . .

More seriously, when trying to consider strengths particular to either general, and specifically for a personality type that, by definition, upsets common standards, I'm coming up with little for either side--which I think stems either my personal judgment, which may or may not be a deeper truth, that gender really isn't important when considering ideals.

Here's the thing-- you say:
What I would like is an intelligent, extraordinary (!) and interesting guy, not necessarily a provider, but a partner. I don't want the whole prefab house-garden-baby-dog scenario. N is an important letter for INTJ females I think, since you need someone that can look beyond gender/relationship stereotypes.
and I think this also fits my desire, with the only notable change to be replacing "guy" with "woman" (but not necessarily). I want a partner who will challenge me, and who wants to be challenged by me--that we will both grow to be something greater than either of us could be alone.

[Antares]

I think the INTJ generally comes out more intensely in the male than in the woman. Everyone knows that woman have better mental health than men so they probably tend to be more precociously balanced. My female cousin is an INTJ, but in her it is less defined than in me. It is easier to get her emotional and respect different ideas. I would simply throw away a worthless, impractical idea given from a friend, but she would probably give it undeserving credit and try to think of a better idea.

I can't say how the other females act, but personally, if I'm confronted with an idea appalling enough to make me gag (ok. exaggeration), I would take a deep breath, then say in an even voice why it wouldn't work. Because I'm to the point, I usually say it like this:

That won't work because for one, we haven't got enough materials. Secondly, there's not enough time. Thirdly, not all of us care about making it pretty and fancy. You don't impose your personal tastes on us.

Often times, it can come out less diplomatic too. In an argument:

Well, I believe...

I don't care about what you believe. Logic doesn't care about what you believe. Reality doesn't care about what you believe. There's nothing inherently wrong with it and you aren't stopping from doing what I want because I'm 15 or I'm a girl. (Guess you know where that came from)

My parents were born in the 60's.

Maybe these play a factor:
My culture is conservative and collectivist (Cantonese-Confucian)
My parents were disciplinarian
I'm idealistic
I'm cautious
My paternal grandparents are also very conservative

I'm not sure but maybe being a bit more socially withdrawn plays a role too.

I forgot to mention social conservative as in I live that kind of lifestyle, not that I go and interfere in what people should do in their lives kind of conservative.

My parents are also born in the sixties ('64) and they were raised an a collectivist-Confucian Cantonese society. They're all social conservatives, my mother especially so. They have recently gotten more liberal, but some of their old beliefs are hard to change (me being the change of their minds) even with hard logic. And to think, my father's NT! I used to be very traditional and conservative, but that was under their influence and the incapability to think. Then, my intuitive nature came out a few months ago (when I discovered MBTI, in fact) and I'm transformed into the Libertarian I am today. I guess it was always inevitable for me to become more liberal, but my parents didn't see it coming. I expressed very conservative thoughts just a year ago.

[ElstonGunn]

Male INTJs - in agreement with the prevalent gender roles and the previously mentioned alpha male-ness - do not necessarily seem to need a mate that's their intellectual "equal" (although they may get irritated after a while), whereas for female INTJs that's probably one of the most important factors.

I don't understand this alpha male thing people are talking about. Based on my conception of what the term means, an introvert doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell as being an alpha male. ...But I guess that's not really the point.

The point is that I generally agree with what you're saying. Also, I think I might be your father (kidding :p). But your description of him sounds very much like me. My best relationship (er... better of the two) was with an ESFJ, and the J was a borderline P. She was also really feminine, going by the standard definition of what that means. She liked cooking, and taking care of people, and talking about her feelings, using the word "cute" very often, and getting mad at me for what I thought were trivial faults and mistakes of mine.

I had an idea about why male INTJs tend to go with the traditional gender roles. They are generally good at being the smart guy in the room, and if I can use myself as an example, they're not good at very many other things. I'm not particularly entertaining, exciting, good with kids or the culinary arts, I can't remember birthdays or anniversaries, I'm not good at giving emotional support to people when they need it, and I'm not very passionate or expressive of my feelings. So if a woman is as smart or smarter than me, what does that make me? Just a boring ass who suddenly doesn't seem so smart.

[TheLastMohican]

Well, I believe...

I don't care about what you believe. Logic doesn't care about what you believe. Reality doesn't care about what you believe. There's nothing inherently wrong with it and you aren't stopping from doing what I want because I'm 15 or I'm a girl. (Guess you know where that came from)


Ha, now I will think twice before saying "I believe..."
It is a point that I had thought of only briefly in the past, but if you know you are right, then you should not say anything about your "belief," unless you need it for a term like "believe in..."

[stasis]

The conversation about what's his face has been moved here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

[umop_3pisdn]

I'm an INTJ male and I can be quite flamboyant and weird. In fact, generally I'd say I conduct myself in a more effeminate way, than in a typically masculine way, on average. At least, I am comfortable with some level of effeminacy in my demeanor. I also tend to enjoy socializing with girls for the reason that they tend to have more refined social personas, and are capable of creating a lighter social atmosphere. This tends to make it easier for me to say really unusual things, or act all insane/manic/not-so-inhibited. My demeanor is only rigid or conservative when I'm feeling uncomfortable, or just feel like playing it safe for whatever reason (also perhaps because I'm uncomfortable?) There's also the possibility that I may not be in the mood... but on average, I tend to appreciate a lighter, more pleasant social atmosphere. I find that most males my age aren't so excellent at creating this. Perhaps it's the whole BS male competition/alpha male shit. I don't know. I find I also tend to have less to say to most males, for whatever reason. I've never really understood that many of them. At least, when confronted with how boys in my society usually are, I've never really understood it.

Though to be honest, I've never identified that strongly with either of the gender roles. I tend to consider myself somewhat ambi-gendered, or at least I don't identify too strongly with one or the other. My main role model as a child was female, and if anything I was used to being considered somewhat effeminate/pansy as a younger boy, so I've kind of got used to being somewhat of a social freak, as far as gender identity goes. That also played a significant role in the shaping of my self image. I tend to just automatically exclude myself from the rest of society, without even thinking of it, because it's a mode of thinking I am quite used to. I guess when one is younger, one tends to care about such social pressures more, and it all seems more dire/serious than it actually is. I also recognize my effeminate qualities as a valid part of my personality, now, and feel I have no reason to obscure it for the sake of others. After all, guys can also be cute/charming/sweet, it's not the sole territory of girls!

Then again, I'm also gay. I tend to be cool with things outside the gender or sexual norms. I also have a soft spot for sensitive/cute guys :)

I tend to enjoy socialization more it's not all some serious affair. INTJ's tend to be somewhat serious people. At least, I'm sure we all take ourselves very seriously (I think it has something to do with being Ni dom.) I think this tends to come through in our social conduct. I think we all kind of have to learn to relax/chill-the-fuck-out, socially, at one point or another. At least in our own way.

[Sod]

Darn it, browser malfunction = total rewrite of post.

I'm an INTJ male, yet I don't feel any desire to be an 'alpha-male' (I dislike the term when used of human relationships.) I have no desire to be domineering or intimidating. I rarely feel aggression towards people, and dislike it when it happens. In fact, I'd prefer it if everyone would run themselves, so to speak.

For me, servility would be a major turn off in a spouse. My idea of the perfect spouse would be a woman who:
(1) shares my religious views (best described as Protestant.) This is of paramount importance. Moral conservatism is included.
(2) has a similar personality to my own; close enough for us to understand one another very well. (The thought of spending the rest of my life with someone who didn't make sense, or who thought I didn't make sense, is an utter nightmare.)
(3) has a similar level of intelligence to me, so we can intellectually stimulate each other.
(4) respected and understood my need for a certain degree of independence. Not as in, "I don't want you to interfere with my work, emotions, projects, etc." That sort of attitude defeats the entire point of marriage in my opinion. I hope that my spouse would be involved, just not controlling.
Hopefully if these criteria are fulfilled, we could (5) get along well. To me, the most important aspect of getting along well is trust and honesty.

Any females around here who think they could pass muster? :charming: (By the way, this is the concise checklist. The full one is a five hour exam, so bring some coffee.)

Anyway, I don't see any 'alpha-male' coming out in the above criteria. Of late, I have come to realize that I tend to idealize women. Perhaps it is because I know the flaws of my own gender first hand.

Amongst my peer group (people in their 30s, early 40s), there doesn't appear to be the kind of prevalent moral conservatism that I notice in many of today's younger generation.

I wonder if this conservatism is a reaction against the sort of moral liberalism of this generation's parents (the children of the '60s, early 70s).

Thoughts?

I'm part of the younger generation you describe. I'm strongly conservative with perhaps a touch of libertarianism. My immediate family has always been morally conservative, but never dogmatic on economics. For me, moral conservatism is logically necessitated by my religion. I adopt economic conservatism due to observation; I have nothing against other economic systems as long as they do not come bundled with moral liberalism. When forming my own views, I do not consider myself to have consciously tried to rebel or conform just for the sake of it. My primary concern has been truth. I am able to separate an idea from emotional connections.

Run out of time to write, so can't finish what I'd previously written or proofread. Remind to use a text editor to compose posts, and save regularly...

[TheLastMohican]

For me, servility would be a major turn off in a spouse. My idea of the perfect spouse would be a woman who:
(1) shares my religious views (best described as Protestant.) This is of paramount importance. Moral conservatism is included.
(2) has a similar personality to my own; close enough for us to understand one another very well. (The thought of spending the rest of my life with someone who didn't make sense, or who thought I didn't make sense, is an utter nightmare.)
(3) has a similar level of intelligence to me, so we can intellectually stimulate each other.
(4) respected and understood my need for a certain degree of independence. Not as in, "I don't want you to interfere with my work, emotions, projects, etc." That sort of attitude defeats the entire point of marriage in my opinion. I hope that my spouse would involved, just not controlling.
Hopefully if these criteria are fulfilled, we could (5) get along well. To me, the most important aspect of getting along well is trust and honesty.

I'm part of the younger generation you describe. I'm strongly conservative with perhaps a touch of libertarianism. My immediate family has always been morally conservative, but never dogmatic on economics. For me, moral conservatism is logically necessitated by my religion. I adopt economic conservatism due to observation; I have nothing against other economic systems as long as they do not come bundled with moral liberalism. When forming my own views, I do not consider myself to have consciously tried to rebel or conform just for the sake of it. My primary concern has been truth. I am able to separate an idea from emotional connections.


We are so similar, it's creepy. Around here, so often I don't have to type my own post...I can just find another INTJ's post and type "ditto."
My uniqueness is in severe distress. :laugh:

[Jgib5328]

I mean umop, you're gay, that changes things a bit. Gays tend to be more effeminate than the typical guy.

[ElGuyay]

When confronted with an ENFP female I immediately unsheathe my sword and scream a battle shout. How dare she try to belittle my my inflated ego.

[umop_3pisdn]

I mean umop, you're gay, that changes things a bit. Gays tend to be more effeminate than the typical guy.

Well, not exactly. There are lots of effeminate straight men. Effeminacy is sort of the expected stereotype of the gay community, by society at large. I don't think it's causal, I think it just tends be correlated. And not even all the time. There are currents running contrary to the whole effeminacy being acceptable thing, within the gay community. Some gays tend to be entirely against it, and into projecting a "normal" more traditional or accepted image. I'm not opposed to this, but I disagree with them trying to reduce the legitimacy of other individuals within their movement, with less conventional gender identities. It ultimately sort of strikes me as gays trying to support/sell themselves to the patriarchy, which I find somewhat misguided. I think the reason most gay men may be more sensitive, or more open to a less rigid gender identity, is because they've realized they're basically already freaks due to their orientation. It's less scary to open yourself up to other aspects of your sexual or gender identity, if you're basically already branded as a anomaly. If that's the case, one has comparatively less to lose by going further.

At least in my case. In realizing that I don't fit into society's model, it's basically like you're already kind of contrary to society. There's nothing I could do about it, it just means eventually accepting that society isn't so great at categorizing everyone, and the world isn't always fair. I mean, it's hard to even know what people think of you. Sure most people are cool to me to my face and shit, but it's hard to know what they really may think or feel about my orientation. I'm old enough now to not care, but when you're young this kind of shit tends to alienate a person and place a lot of shame on them. Really coming to terms with it tends to signal a relatively extreme break from social norms. At least it did for me. People in general have relatively complex identities. Gender roles tend to be prescriptive ideals that don't even have much basis in reality. I think there is a great deal of socially sanctioned shame in differing in any way from one's gender role. I think people will create a natural aversion to that, unless they feel as if there's no reason they should care. It's my opinion that that probably plays a larger role in determining how accepting one is of such things.

[The Many]

and I think this also fits my desire, with the only notable change to be replacing "guy" with "woman" (but not necessarily). I want a partner who will challenge me, and who wants to be challenged by me--that we will both grow to be something greater than either of us could be alone.

I think this generally applies to me as well. Sometimes, I tend to be quite judging of opinions which are different than mine, but I think these tendencies have become much smaller lately; strangely enough at the same time as I have read a lot of philosophy and generally developed as a person. I am very INTP-ish when it comes to theories, though, so I have a tendency to accept a lot of things as long as they are not downright silly.

Also, I simply cannot stand male power struggles and random ad hominem insults when it comes to discussing serious issues. Solitude is much preferable to pointless competition.

Ohh, and as to listening to others - taking in as much information as possible before making a decision is almost necessary to achieve any kind of working conclusion. Consequently, this is what I prefer to do.

[sriv]

Nothing that I can think of.

They are different, I think, but I cannot quite put my finger on that either. I actually think I get along a bit better with the INTJ females on this forum, even though I am INTJ male. (In real everyday life, I have nothing in common with most females. They are foreign to me.) But here, oddly, I think some of the natural masculinity exaggerates some INTJ traits, so an INTJ male is more likely be bull-headed. The females seem a bit more tempered and willing to engage in diplomatic reasoning, while not changing their beliefs. (I see a strong difference between searching for common ground and working from there in a persuasive manner and shutting out logical arguments after a point and resorting to off-subject jabs to beat the opponent into submission.)

These are, of course, general statements. I see plenty of exceptions around, but I think that overall female INTJ's might be the ideal type. (And since I am an INTJ male, that means I am really impressed with you all.)

Why would you actually accept anyone is more ideal than you? If you believe you are not ideal then you should try to achieve the ideal. Your statement completely contradicts the stereotypical bull-headed ego of the average INTJ male.

[TheLastMohican]

Why would you actually accept anyone is more ideal than you?

I have to. I can't very well say I am better than Jesus Christ.

If you believe you are not ideal then you should try to achieve the ideal.

And why else do you think I am so involved in this forum? I am learning a great deal about human relations and how other people think. Such knowledge will be very helpful in attempting to approach the ideal.

Your statement completely contradicts the stereotypical bull-headed ego of the average INTJ male.

I think that ego is the main flaw in the INTJ male. It goes against the grain of the other INTJ traits, since it frequently breeds denial of the fact that no one is perfect and no one is an expert in everything. An INTJ, by nature, ought to know very well what he does not know.

[Haphazard]

The difference between the apparent 'conservatism' of male INTJs might be the way the world is structured rather than inherent differences between male and female INTJs.

With the leftovers of sexism and structured society which left men mostly in leadership positions and women in nurturing positions, men might think that this is perfectly fine. A female INTJ, however, is likely going to be uncomfortable relegated to a nurturing position because INTJs aren't naturally all that nurturing, at least in the traditional sense. Because of these traditional vestiges, a male INTJ might find a world that works for him and a female INTJ might find a world that doesn't work for her. This may have been a bigger problem earlier but it still certainly influences kids and adults today.

The differences in how girls and boys are taught and raised from a young age might have an effect on how an INTJ functions, even if under it all they're still INTJ. Young children don't separate into MBTI types but rather by sexes, be that for good or ill.

[sriv]

I have to. I can't very well say I am better than Jesus Christ.

And why else do you think I am so involved in this forum? I am learning a great deal about human relations and how other people think. Such knowledge will be very helpful in attempting to approach the ideal.

I think that ego is the main flaw in the INTJ male. It goes against the grain of the other INTJ traits, since it frequently breeds denial of the fact that no one is perfect and no one is an expert in everything. An INTJ, by nature, ought to know very well what he does not know.

Exactly the answer I wanted to hear. I hope that serves a lesson to other INTJ males and INTJ men that have a large ego but either do not know it or deny it.

Along the lines of Haphazard, I also think the environment shapes the differences between INTJ males and females. The personality is probably partly genetic but the differences are what society, family, and environment decide. Female INTJs have adapted because they had to whereas the male INTJ's stubbornness has remained untouched since childhood so they remain very much stubborn asses.

[Darkmist]

Stubborn ass is half way true and half way not. My son has his views and will stand by them to prove someone else is wrong, but then may change if something more apt comes along. In a partner he looks for a woman he can talk to intelligently and who shares his interests to a degree. He wants freedom and he grants freedom. Just don't mess with his trust or act unfairly. He is conservative in the male female role, but only if it works in the situation he is in. If it doesn't he will change his thinking. He does love to be the saviour though, and not to save as much as to prove he can save.

And he does have the macho no that truck that fell on my head didn't hurt thing blah, blah, blah.

So is he male more or female more? He seems to be between, comfortable in both realms.

[Sod]

We are so similar, it's creepy. Around here, so often I don't have to type my own post...I can just find another INTJ's post and type "ditto."
My uniqueness is in severe distress.
How dare you undermine my individuality! And dang, now I've got competition for the perfect woman... Seriously though, it is creepy, but I like it. Similarly, reading C.S. Lewis' (an INTJ) auto-biography, Surprised by Joy, was one of the strangest experiences in my life.

have to. I can't very well say I am better than Jesus Christ.
Seconded.

I think that ego is the main flaw in the INTJ male. It goes against the grain of the other INTJ traits, since it frequently breeds denial of the fact that no one is perfect and no one is an expert in everything. An INTJ, by nature, ought to know very well what he does not know.
Very true. About six months ago I realised how how big my ego was, and that it was growing. It had, in a sense, crept up on me - all my life I'd known the dangers of pride but never learned to identify it in myself. (I prided myself on being without pride :suspicious: ) Furthermore, it was not obvious to others. Since the discovery and prompted by my religious convictions, I've tried to deflate it with moderate success. I now try to remain vigilant against any insurgencies (and, of course, I have not finished eradicating it). What surprised me was that, as the pride decreased, so did the fear of failure. I am actually more confident, but less arrogant. This seems a much healthier state of mind.

Along the lines of Haphazard, I also think the environment shapes the differences between INTJ males and females. The personality is probably partly genetic but the differences are what society, family, and environment decide. Female INTJs have adapted because they had to whereas the male INTJ's stubbornness has remained untouched since childhood so they remain very much stubborn asses.
I agree. My family wouldn't have tolerated me being 'stubborn ass' outwardly, and I knew it. In addition, I knew I had to change when I figured out how much private pride I had. This is one of the reasons I'm so grateful for my upbringing.

[TheLastMohican]

How dare you undermine my individuality! And dang, now I've got competition for the perfect woman... Seriously though, it is creepy, but I like it. Similarly, reading C.S. Lewis' (an INTJ) auto-biography, Surprised by Joy, was one of the strangest experiences in my life.

Not to worry; If we dig far enough I am sure will be able to find some difference between us. ;)
As for the perfect woman, while I agree with your parameters, I am not seeking an SO. I think I will be quite content in solitude. Good luck with your search, though.



Very true. About six months ago I realised how how big my ego was, and that it was growing. It had, in a sense, crept up on me - all my life I'd known the dangers of pride but never learned to identify it in myself. (I prided myself on being without pride :suspicious: ) Furthermore, it was not obvious to others. Since the discovery and prompted by my religious convictions, I've tried to deflate it with moderate success. I now try to remain vigilant against any insurgencies (and, of course, I have not finished eradicating it). What surprised me was that, as the pride decreased, so did the fear of failure. I am actually more confident, but less arrogant. This seems a much healthier state of mind.

Yes, and you have progressed further into an INTJ frame of mind. Many assume that an INTJ is arrogant, because he will rarely express doubt in himself when he is speaking of one of his specialties. We know what we know, and we know what we do not know. So actually I have discovered that pure INTJ-ness involves very little pride, only a factual understanding of your abilities. Pride tends to involve an inflated sense yourself, and is usually unrealistic.

That is why I think female INTJ's on average have one up on us; They are not plagued by that annoying trait of machismo, which becomes quite intolerable when it is clashed together with the INTJ brain. In an odd way, the two traits struggle with each other, and yet they seem to enhance each other when viewed from the outside.

[Santana28]

I haven't read all of the previous posts, but i would have to say that most traits common to an INTJ are more typically "male" as far as society is concerned therefore it is easier and more natural for a male INTJ to display the traits than a female. My father is an INTJ and while he is similar to me in that he has a certain disconnect when it comes to dealing with society, he is not an out and out oddity... but i, on the other hand, stick out like a sore thumb from my fellow womenkind. The values i hold and the standards i live by contrast greatly with the female "norm" - and my entire life has been one conflict after another with common stereotypes and expectations. Men are judged by what they do and how successful they are. Women are judged by their personality, their looks, and their lifestyles. Everything i do i am fighting a struggle - not for what it is i am trying to accomplish, but to be taken seriously in the first place. And even then - in a male-dominated world, i have to deal with the inevitable insecurities i bring out in less-apt males, and judgmental females. If i were a male i have no doubt that i would be ten steps down the roadway further towards success than i am now, if only for the mere fact that i wouldn't first have to tackle the twin hurdles of being taken seriously, and intimidation. Life as a female INTJ is VERY DIFFICULT. And also, you have to consider the INTJ female who still believes there is something "wrong" with being different, and spends their life trying to conform to the female and societal norm - only to find unhappiness.

:sigh:

[Victoria Silver]

A very interesting conversation so far. For whatever it might be worth, I'll add that (based on my self-knowledge, and psychological tests) I'm fairly androgynous in personality. I am not "nurturing" at all. For example, I have never had even the smallest desire to have children or to take care of children. On the other hand, I don't think that I am particularly ambitious or confident. I am also an extreme liberal on social/cultural issues, which seems to go against the grain.

[TheLastMohican]

I haven't read all of the previous posts, but i would have to say that most traits common to an INTJ are more typically "male" as far as society is concerned therefore it is easier and more natural for a male INTJ to display the traits than a female. My father is an INTJ and while he is similar to me in that he has a certain disconnect when it comes to dealing with society, he is not an out and out oddity... but i, on the other hand, stick out like a sore thumb from my fellow womenkind. The values i hold and the standards i live by contrast greatly with the female "norm" - and my entire life has been one conflict after another with common stereotypes and expectations. Men are judged by what they do and how successful they are. Women are judged by their personality, their looks, and their lifestyles. Everything i do i am fighting a struggle - not for what it is i am trying to accomplish, but to be taken seriously in the first place. And even then - in a male-dominated world, i have to deal with the inevitable insecurities i bring out in less-apt males, and judgmental females. If i were a male i have no doubt that i would be ten steps down the roadway further towards success than i am now, if only for the mere fact that i wouldn't first have to tackle the twin hurdles of being taken seriously, and intimidation. Life as a female INTJ is VERY DIFFICULT. And also, you have to consider the INTJ female who still believes there is something "wrong" with being different, and spends their life trying to conform to the female and societal norm - only to find unhappiness.

:sigh:

Just remember that "average" is by no means synonymous with "good." When INTJ females are shunned for their nonconformity, the problem is with those doing the shunning. I pity the fools.





TheLastMohican added to this post, 1 minutes and 18 seconds later...

A very interesting conversation so far. For whatever it might be worth, I'll add that (based on my self-knowledge, and psychological tests) I'm fairly androgynous in personality. I am not "nurturing" at all. For example, I have never had even the smallest desire to have children or to take care of children. On the other hand, I don't think that I am particularly ambitious or confident. I am also an extreme liberal on social/cultural issues, which seems to go against the grain.

Which grain does it go against? INTJ's, females, people in general...?

[eclecticjoker]

I'm female, and INTJ, and my biggest issue with being an INTJ is my emotional distance from others. I can come across as cold and withdrawn, even with people I feel very warmly toward. Some people also think that my general disinterest with touching is bizarre. Quite honestly, I only really learned to hug people about a year ago. Before it was an awkward mashing of arms and chest and I absolutely hated it.

Another problem I run into is that I have an extremely high standard when it comes to dating and romantic relationships. In short- nobody reaches it. People are never grounded enough, intelligent enough, or talented enough. Or they are- and then I would be shocked if they took interest in me. I sometimes wonder if I will get over myself and find someone, but when I do, I just remember that I can be perfectly happy by myself, as long as I don't let the feminine expectations of my culture get me down.

Honestly, much of my distress at being a female INTJ is that I have a hard time living up to the cultural expectations that exist for females. I'm not an overtly sensual person, I don't try to flaunt my appearance, I don't like flirting, and I don't like causal interaction, along with a million other small things that I'm sure women other than INTJs struggle with.

One thing that gives me hope is my interaction with my brothers. I'm nineteen, and my brothers are one and two. I absolutely love them, and I am very outwardly expressive of it, and have even been the most accepting of them out of my sisters. I love to hug my brothers and get disgusting baby kisses and let them sit on my lap.

I might not be gushy and sentimental most of the time, but I am not a robot!

[Victoria Silver]

Which grain does it go against? INTJ's, females, people in general...?

Against the INTJ grain, I meant to say. I am certainly quite a bit more liberal than the average American (although I might be pretty average in Canada or parts of Western Europe, among other places.) It's true that, at least in the USA, the "average" woman tends to be a little more liberal than the "average" man, but I think I'm still quite a bit more liberal than that.

[TheLastMohican]

Against the INTJ grain, I meant to say. I am certainly quite a bit more liberal than the average American (although I might be pretty average in Canada or parts of Western Europe, among other places.) It's true that, at least in the USA, the "average" woman tends to be a little more liberal than the "average" man, but I think I'm still quite a bit more liberal than that.

Well, I hope you find a cure. We're all pulling for you.

Just kidding :laugh:





TheLastMohican added to this post, 2 minutes and 28 seconds later...


I might not be gushy and sentimental most of the time, but I am not a robot!

Too bad; I guess you're not the girl for me, then.


Notice avatar...get it?

Oh well...

[Santana28]

Just remember that "average" is by no means synonymous with "good." When INTJ females are shunned for their nonconformity, the problem is with those doing the shunning. I pity the fools.


oh, i know this all too well. but the problem is actually LIVING in a world filled with these fools. These are the ones grading my papers, and reading my applications, and interviewing me for jobs, and judging my performance.

Life, i suppose - is a choice. I could choose to live strictly by my values and turn into a Ted Kaczynki type recluse, or learn to function in a world controlled by judgmental and insecure idiots. I'm not quite to that "shack in the woods" stage yet... although there's a high probability that i will end up there before all is said and done!





Santana28 added to this post, 0 minutes and 46 seconds later...


I might not be gushy and sentimental most of the time, but I am not a robot!

if i had a dollar for every time i have said that, i could afford to BUILD that shack in the woods! LOL

[Sod]

Not to worry; If we dig far enough I am sure will be able to find some difference between us. ;)
As for the perfect woman, while I agree with your parameters, I am not seeking an SO. I think I will be quite content in solitude. Good luck with your search, though.
Heh, at the present rate of 0 hours/year spent searching, I'll need all the luck I can get.

Yes, and you have progressed further into an INTJ frame of mind. Many assume that an INTJ is arrogant, because he will rarely express doubt in himself when he is speaking of one of his specialties. We know what we know, and we know what we do not know. So actually I have discovered that pure INTJ-ness involves very little pride, only a factual understanding of your abilities. Pride tends to involve an inflated sense yourself, and is usually unrealistic.
Yep, and discovering MB theory and the fact that I am INTJ was helped me separate normal confidence from harmful pride. When pride is replaced by informed confidence, I suppose it is natural for the fear of failure to depart - if you know what you can do and what you can't, you're not going to set yourself up to fail.


I'm female, and INTJ, and my biggest issue with being an INTJ is my emotional distance from others. I can come across as cold and withdrawn, even with people I feel very warmly toward. Some people also think that my general disinterest with touching is bizarre. Quite honestly, I only really learned to hug people about a year ago. Before it was an awkward mashing of arms and chest and I absolutely hated it.

Ditto on the touching and hugging. It began to feel odd once I got to adolescence. I like to keep a space between me and everyone else, about 125% of my arm length. I also used to think I was odd for not having lots of emotions about other people. I care for them a great deal, but attempting to have 'fuzzy feelings' just fail.

[knitteratheart]

I think the main issue here is how people think men and women should behave. If an INTJ male acts like an INTJ male, people think he's very masculine and opionated and leave him alone. If and INTJ female acts like an INTJ male, they think she's arrogant and stuck-up and make fun of her behind her back. INTJs in general are rather distant, right? In society, for a guy to be distant, is fine, even cool. For a woman, she's immediatly thought of as strange and cold. There's really not much difference betwenn INTJ males and females, the difference is in the way society view each gender.

[Haphazard]

I think I may have found a temporary place in the world in my school's alternative culture -- nobody really cares about normal social behavior (in fact, I'd wager to say that 85% of them are somewhat reclusive), and the discussions are usually about something I somewhat enjoy.

I remember once, in I think sixth grade, getting called out by my mother... she was talking about the way women are 'supposed' to act. She said, if women act opinionated and aggressive, they would be called a 'b'. Aside from being absolutely disgusted at her statement, I was also disgusted that she wouldn't actually say the word 'bitch.' And this is still where she stands today. I don't know what to do about her except move out as quickly as possible.

[TheLastMohican]

I think the main issue here is how people think men and women should behave. If an INTJ male acts like an INTJ male, people think he's very masculine and opionated and leave him alone. If and INTJ female acts like an INTJ male, they think she's arrogant and stuck-up and make fun of her behind her back. INTJs in general are rather distant, right? In society, for a guy to be distant, is fine, even cool. For a woman, she's immediatly thought of as strange and cold. There's really not much difference betwenn INTJ males and females, the difference is in the way society view each gender.

Sadly true.

[Cuivienen]

Along the lines of Haphazard, I also think the environment shapes the differences between INTJ males and females. The personality is probably partly genetic but the differences are what society, family, and environment decide. Female INTJs have adapted because they had to whereas the male INTJ's stubbornness has remained untouched since childhood so they remain very much stubborn asses.

I agree; I believe (and know from past experiences) that it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for an INTJ-female to make her way without compromising to some extent.
For me that essentially meant learning to small-talk even if I don`t feel like it, talking to people I find annoying instead of just ignoring them completely and just generally being more patient with other people.

While I wish society in general didn`t have these kinds of double standards for males and females, life is much easier if I fake some surface conformism in this way; people, especially peers, are more willing to listen to and implement my ideas.
It does get tiring sometimes, though. I agree with Santana that life as female INTJ is anything but easy.

Wouldn`t change it for the world, though :).

As for me, my relationship ideas are a lot more unconventional. What I would like is an intelligent, extraordinary (!) and interesting guy, not necessarily a provider, but a partner. I don't want the whole prefab house-garden-baby-dog scenario. N is an important letter for INTJ females I think, since you need someone that can look beyond gender/relationship stereotypes.


Throw in a sense of humour and that would be exactly the kind of guy/relationship I`d like as well. :thumbsup:

[futureperfect5]

I have to chime in to write that I was surprised to find gender discussions in an INTJ forum -- it makes more sense from a non-INTJ ...

INTJs are so independent and self-defined, I am not inclined to buy into the Venus and Mars euphoria ...

I would agree with the others who have mentioned gender tendencies as socialized before, in most instances. Yet, I would recognize that women have to deal with more stereotyping and expectations for behavior than men -- generally.

For instance, (I am in "share" mode today -- it doesn't happen often), I can remember starting a new job about five years ago and the women in the office were having a "lingerie party" :huh: (what was that about) that they thought that I should attend to get to know them. They asked several times and then one approached me while I was working and said. "Don't you want to join in and tell us about your family?" I said, :thumbsdown: "Not really ..."

My brother told me that people expect women to be friendly and socialize more than men.

So, NO .. :yuck:it is not natural ... I do socializing and girly-lady stuff -- if it is forced on me. :cry:I much prefer to be left to my work and interests.

[vkut79]

I think I may have found a temporary place in the world in my school's alternative culture -- nobody really cares about normal social behavior (in fact, I'd wager to say that 85% of them are somewhat reclusive), and the discussions are usually about something I somewhat enjoy.

I remember once, in I think sixth grade, getting called out by my mother... she was talking about the way women are 'supposed' to act. She said, if women act opinionated and aggressive, they would be called a 'b'. Aside from being absolutely disgusted at her statement, I was also disgusted that she wouldn't actually say the word 'bitch.' And this is still where she stands today. I don't know what to do about her except move out as quickly as possible.

Man, I hate conformity, and I have so little respect for people who emphasize conformity to established social rules. Of course this is my natural INTJ tendency to feel this way. This is definitely a feeling based judgment on my part - I have come to value and effectively rely on independence so much that I look down on people who conform. Not easy to control this prejudice :thinking: but its something I try to do, because believe it or not there is nothing logically bad about being conformist to a reasonable extent.

[Haphazard]

Man, I hate conformity, and I have so little respect for people who emphasize conformity to established social rules. Of course this is my natural INTJ tendency to feel this way. This is definitely a feeling based judgment on my part - I have come to value and effectively rely on independence so much that I look down on people who conform. Not easy to control this prejudice :thinking: but its something I try to do, because believe it or not there is nothing logically bad about being conformist to a reasonable extent.

Reasonable conformity is... well, reasonable. I find it unreasonable to force this conformity upon other people, but that's just what conformity is, isn't it? It's fine what other people want to do with themselves, I just don't want to be involved.

[Todos]

I only know one INTJ female, and she's a little weird, as described in the first post of this thread. I dont know if it's me, or just the way she is, but from what she says, she seems like she's always annoyed with something, and is very critical. I'm aware of my nature to criticize so I try to curtail it a bit, she doesn't, and it's a little tiring that she's always questioning and criticizing.

[Antares]

I only know one INTJ female, and she's a little weird, as described in the first post of this thread. I dont know if it's me, or just the way she is, but from what she says, she seems like she's always annoyed with something, and is very critical. I'm aware of my nature to criticize so I try to curtail it a bit, she doesn't, and it's a little tiring that she's always questioning and criticizing.

Well, the way I see it, you're comforming, she's not; and is playing her true nature. That's basically how I work, except I tend to keep more to myself. In projects, we were supposed to agree or disagree with a quote. One of them was Elie Wiesel's quote that "if you witness an atrocity or an inhumane act and do nothing, then you're just as guilty as the one commiting the act. If you know of the atrocity and remain silent, then you're affirming the act and participating in it." Heroism and emotionalism aside, I took the quote, examined it and listed all the things that are wrong with this quote; I mercilessly attacked the quote and labeled various fallacies all over it. I called the standpoint absolutist, vague and appealing to emotions, then proceeded to allege that it should not be taken seriously.

I think the teacher expected us to agree with the quote (and he expected us to agree that 'Death is a milder fate than tyranny'. I killed that one also), but I always disagree with it because heck, if I find something wrong with it, I can't not disagree.

[blueback]

I always disagree with it because heck, if I find something wrong with it, I can't not disagree.

LOL, that's the way I've been all my life. Of course, I'm confident enough in my ability to see things that other people miss that I don't need to point it out to them any more. It makes getting along with people much easier when you listen to them and appreciate their point of veiw no matter how absurd it is. As long as they're not causing any problems it really doesn't matter whether or not they are right or wrong. I think of it like a nature walk. I can walk through the forest and enjoy all the animals and plants doing their own deterministic thing just like I can wander through the world and enjoy all the people doing their deterministic thing. Very few people are open to the idea of living rationally, so just appreciate them for the deterministic machine they are and move on to important things.

[Uytuun]

You better not touch.

Man inside a female body...that's hilarious. :D

As for The lack of empathy, the void of passion, the lack of initiating anything

Empathy I have, sympathy...not so much.

Devoid of passion...nuh-uh...passionate about whatever intellectual pursuit we are dealing with and probably work in general and once you break through the wall, well...surprise.

Lack of initiating: no, when we want something we tend to go for it.

Cuddly INTPs...gotta love'em.

[Vivian Louise]

Fascinating subject.

I will say this, as an INTJ woman who found out a bit later in life, that once you understand who you are, how your personality works and how other's personalities work, life gets easier. It was hard as hell always being 'different', being the only woman in a group who could hang with the men in a conversation, who wasn't afraid of every frickin thing ever. Getting officially rebuked for being a who I am by my pastor and his wife was more than difficult. (I'm out of there now.)

My life became immeasurably easier when I took the MBTI and read the profiles that seemed like someone invaded my brain. I finally 'got' why I was the only girl on the church group trips to the beach who actually went in the water and swam, the rest were protecting thier carefully coiffed doo's. The examples really are nearly endless.

Now I know to cultivate and plan for alone time when I'm forced to act the extrovert for work or other obligations. I no longer feel odd because I am odd. It is comfortable to be happy in the skin God made for me.

It does seem that there are few NT men in my part of the world, fewer men that want to deal with an INTJ woman.

Here is a question (with preamble): I'm told I'm scary all the time, this has been true since I was about 11. Do all INTJ's get that? Partly I think it's that "seeing through people" thing, partly I'm not easily scared or intimidated and the rest is that I tend to look people in the eye and hold their gaze. How about you? Do you find you scare people easily?

If so, do you enjoy that you scare people easily? I do, sometimes.

[TheLastMohican]

Vivian, check out these threads:

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[MacGuffin]

I do get what he's getting at, actually. More conservative, more Te, less open-minded, possibly socially more challenged or more bitter...sometimes I get that impression from male INTJs. What do you guys think? Are there any significant differences? If so, what are they in your opinion?

I have noticed differences myself in my short time here.

It's almost like this:

Male INTJ: Te
Female INTJ: Ni

I don't think I've noticed a striking difference in male/female INTPs. There are gender differences for sure, but I've noticed a wider gap here.

Cuddly INTPs...gotta love'em.

That's just an Urban Legend!

[Uytuun]

That's just an Urban Legend!

Oh, I get the subtext, you clever INFTP :hug:.

[Indubitably]

I doubt this is as much of an "INTJ thing", as it is a male / female thing. More often than not women are more emotionally mature than men, some times very significantly so. It seems only logical to assume that they would be more emotionally secure as a result. For some types the difference between men and women in this respect is probably not very well pronounced because they have a natural affinity for coping with intense emotion. ENFPs for instance seem to be exceptionally adept in this respect, they know what they are feeling, they know what the people around them are feeling, and they know how to cope with it. INTJs on the other hand, are some of the most sensitive people I have ever met. I find it rather odd that most people get the impression that they are some how cold, unfeeling, and uncaring. From my point of view it is quite the opposite, they may be very guarded with their feelings, but only because they are so acutely sensitive to emotional trauma.

You have to keep in mind that there is a very significant difference between aggression and confidence. Aggression is an expression of fear. You don't lash out and attack the people around you unless you are insecure. INTJ females are most likely less aggressive because they are better at dealing with their emotions, and thus feel less threatened. Men are not only less capable of dealing with emotional threats, they are in many cultures kept under the constant threat of being ostracized and ridiculed as failures if they do not conform to a certain masculine ideal. INTJs are on the whole already very self critical, so it no doubt just compounds the feelings of insecurity that most everyone experiences, at least to a degree.

Thats not to say that INTJ women don't have their own threats to deal with. If I am not mistaken ESFJ is the most prevalent type among the female population, and the most ruthlessly conniving character assigns I have ever met have been teenage ESFJs (sadly not all grow out of it either). Talk about swimming with the sharks, I doubt most female INTJs ever have the opportunity to expose any signs of emotional vulnerability what so ever, if those ESFJs girly girls smell blood in the water the INTJs are done for. This probably has some impact on men for that matter too, so much of our masculine ideal is tied up in our success with the opposite sex that those same hypothetical ESFJs can hold quite a bit of sway over our sense of self worth as well.

[Synamon]

:lovestruck: Indubidibly, I tend to agree, societal pressures and maturity probably have an impact on how male and female INTJs differ or at least in how others perceive them. As it does with how every personality type differs by sex.



Male INTJ: Te
Female INTJ: Ni



Did you mean women use their intuition more and men are use thinking as a dominant process? Or did you mean men are more extroverted, flipping the Ni/Te results in an ENTJ after all.

[Seppuku Savant]

I doubt this is as much of an "INTJ thing", as it is a male / female thing.

From my point of view it is quite the opposite, they may be very guarded with their feelings, but only because they are so acutely sensitive to emotional trauma.

Agreed. There will always be differences due to gender because of the type of conditioning most people undergo from society, beginning at a very young age.

I wonder if your guarded statement is correct. I've known a classic INTJ IRL, and I thought he was an emotionless robot. I was intimate with him for years and never once felt he was guarding his feelings. He just didn't seem to access them much.

[Uberfuhrer]

Did you mean women use their intuition more and men are use thinking as a dominant process?

Yes. That is called women's intuition.

It seems that a lot of people here and elsewhere are taking iNtuition a bit literally.

It's not the same as being psychic, at least not in this grossly stereotyped way. I read at other forums stuff about the N being a mystic and I'm like :rolleyes:. Sure, a mystic is a stereotyped example of Ni, but this function also applies in a much more down-to-earth way, such as having an internal vision.

You can't extrovert Ni by itself. By law, it is introverted.

I also see a lot of posts about how many INTJs take things literally. Ni is not concerned with intuiting data from the external environment, so it misses the nuances in that sort of thing.

And in typology, "literal" is a far broader definition than how one sees words. When related to the N function, which is irrational and not intellectual, literalness more likely is the "intuitive" process of having an insight of change or an "Aha" moment that is completely random. For example, you may see a field, and then you may see in your mind how you can transform that field into city.

N is not really an intellectual interpretative function, but rather a visionary sense. If you want to "interpret" the reality of of a situation, then that is probably more related to the rational processes, moreover, the introverted rational processes, which uses internal judgment, which basically translates into profound interpretations. Ti is better able to interpret logical meaning of things, while Fi is able to interpret the emotional meaning of things.

[ElstonGunn]

More often than not women are more emotionally mature than men, some times very significantly so. It seems only logical to assume that they would be more emotionally secure as a result.

What are you basing that on? That seems like way too big of a generalization, and way too ill-defined of an idea to be throwing around like it's common knowledge.

[Nanashi]

Everyone knows that woman have better mental health than men so they probably tend to be more precociously balanced.
Actually, I see reports over and over of women having more cases of depression and other issues in mental health than their male counterparts in specific areas. Women are often socialized to be more conciliatory in interactions and to care more about being pleasing physically, whereas males are often socialized to be more active in sports and more dominant in interactions.





Nanashi added to this post, 23 minutes and 17 seconds later...


Male INTJ: Te
Female INTJ: Ni

I was actually able to be an alpha kid for quite a while b/c I was the oldest of three kids being raised by a single parent INFP. She turned to my tough-minded stances on issues often.

As humans we respond to our environments. If an INTJ of either gender is not as easily able to use a natural preference because of outside pressure, that trait will require more effort to operate. An INTJ man raised in a certain type of family may be praised only for Te and mocked for Ni, so he may keep the imaginative part of his personality relatively hidden in his presentation to the outside world of his achievements, utilizing Ni for brainstorming, but not sharing fanciful daydreams or pleasure in the obscure. With an INFP mom, I was a commodity in the Te department, but I was definitely rewarded for being imaginative and reproached for having my Fi so far down on the list of my preferences.
I have to say, I think socialization may have pushed INTJ females from a young age to be more aware of peoples' feelings out of necessity to their survival. I've been aware of people's feelings and emotional outbursts screwing up things for us all (or just for me) since I was really small. As for the typical alpha-male INTJ (I'm not discussing the INTJ who is sensitive and not excessively aggressive), he was probably just as sensitive to the craziness of that icky emotional shit, but he was encouraged to push his way through or was allowed to stick to his Logic Guns and ignore the melodramatism. (I was allowed that at times.) Parents want girls to be more conciliatory, imo. Someone's got to make things warm & fuzzy, right? And it's just the tradition it ought to be the entity born with a certain kind of plumbing. If a guy acted the way I often did, "He's just a boy," might have been the general response. A bit of disapproval, but their brains probably argued that he'd be good at being a leader or being tough-minded. "Some woman will want him." I think that's key, too. People worry that female INTJs won't be on the market unless they're taught to put on the social face of the caring mother or sympathetic girlfriend. Igg. It's refreshing to be around people who care about being real and true to one's self. I have concern. I have feelings. I just have them in the hidden and not-so-important-to-me-as-logic-and-pragmatism-and-analysis INTJ-way.


Oh! Also, excelling at the social acceptance thing can become a sort of achievement thing for INTJs, imo. A bit of an INTJ-assignment.





Nanashi added to this post, 7 minutes and 13 seconds later...

When I came to this board, I was surprised that there weren't very many people here more like my dad or more like myself. There seems to be a lot of bitterness, paranoia, and aggression here—even among a few of the women.

It's lovely to hear of an INTJ experiencing success in many areas of life. I propose that an INTJ will be more bitter, paranoid, and aggressive if the said INTJ has met with certain impediments in their lives.

[Indubitably]

What are you basing that on? That seems like way too big of a generalization, and way too ill-defined of an idea to be throwing around like it's common knowledge.

Well, this has repeatedly been my experience throughout life, and I have likewise experienced a near unanimous consensus among the those whom I have spoken with on the subject, regardless of gender. It is a subjective statement about a subjective topic. If you are looking for an authoritative metric and sufficient cross cultural data for emotional maturity levels to make a stab at an objective judgment on the matter I suspect you are going to have a hard time finding it. Granted, that alone is indeed reason enough to question the voracity of my statement, but if we are to engage in conjecture about personal opinions concerning society and gender roles I'm afraid a certain degree of faith is necessary. Take it with what ever degree of skepticism you wish. If you have had experiences that contradict mine please feel free to state as much, and I will be happy to take that into consideration the next time I address a similar question.

[ElstonGunn]

if we are to engage in conjecture about personal opinions concerning society and gender roles I'm afraid a certain degree of faith is necessary.

Good point. I didn't mean to be all dickish about it, so I'm sorry if it came off that way. It just never occurred to me that women would generally be more emotionally mature than men are. It also sounds like a term that women would be interested in, and that they would define, which I think slants the odds in their favor. There's also the issue of what goes into maturity. A behavior that's extremely mature for one person might be very immature for another person.

Either way, I have no problem imagining mature and immature people of either gender. Not that you were saying that there isn't one single emotionally mature male in the world and that every female in the world is emotionally mature without exception.

[Indubitably]

Good point. I didn't mean to be all dickish about it, so I'm sorry if it came off that way. It just never occurred to me that women would generally be more emotionally mature than men are. It also sounds like a term that women would be interested in, and that they would define, which I think slants the odds in their favor. There's also the issue of what goes into maturity. A behavior that's extremely mature for one person might be very immature for another person.

Either way, I have no problem imagining mature and immature people of either gender. Not that you were saying that there isn't one single emotionally mature male in the world and that every female in the world is emotionally mature without exception.

No offense taken. I wouldn't even bother participating in a discussion in the first place if everyone I was attempting to converse with took what I said without question.

[MacGuffin]

Oh, I get the subtext, you clever INFTP :hug:.

I'm onto your game!

Did you mean women use their intuition more and men are use thinking as a dominant process? Or did you mean men are more extroverted, flipping the Ni/Te results in an ENTJ after all.

No, I just meant I could see more Ni influence in the women's posts. The men come across nearly ISTJ (hence my other thread about the similarities between ISTJs and INTJs).

[Infidel]

Women are socialized to be more attuned to making nice and forming relationships, so that's probably what's going on. It's more socially acceptable for an INTJ male to be INTJ. When I am acting particularly INTJish, I get called a "bitch." Hence, I learned how to put on a mask and am sometimes able to pass as a merely socially awkward female, at least some of the time.

I have to ask this....what is so wrong with being called a "bitch".

Take off the mask, be what you are. It's just a name, just a word, just a judgment from someone who probably does not matter at all.

Besides, it's not what you are called that counts....it's what you answer to.

[Indubitably]

I have to ask this....what is so wrong with being called a "bitch".

Take off the mask, be what you are. It's just a name, just a word, just a judgment from someone who probably does not matter at all.

Besides, it's not what you are called that counts....it's what you answer to.

Indeed, some of my best friends are total bitches, and not all of them are even female. XD

[Evalind]

Yes. I've also noticed that very 'conciliatory' mask being adopted here too, by women, in debates involving men. There is a tendency to present a view as a tentative or open one, or to use heavy qualifiers, and also to seek to appease or even 'flatter', in a sense, the person who has put forward the opposing view.

I don't think INTJ women need to do this. If others can't accept the way we are and prefer to be, that's their problem, not ours.

I agree, we don't need to do such... but I disagree as well... I learned this trait largely from my father (an INTJ). It's the "attract more flies with honey" approach. It's easier to get your way and have non-NT types agree with you if you appease or flatter them. Seeing as my mother is ESFJ, he had to do a lot of appeasing.

[replicant]

I am an INTJ and my co-worker, she's an INTJ. However, we differ greatly. While each of us has the ability to be blunt - she's less tactful and is not as cautious. She speaks often in a very emotionless almost harsh sounding way. She has some friends but she doesn't have a lot of them. She can't keep a boyfriend and she doesn't actively pursue getting one. She's very slender and looks a bit like Kerri Russell. At times, she seems quite shallow. Men are very much attracted to her but she's exceptionally picky and she won't give a lot of men (who are rather educated, do well for themselves and have good personalities) the time of day. She's somewhat anti-social. She can be aggressive and she's a staunch Republican.

I, on the otherhand, passive aggressive to a certain extent. I am not overtly aggressive. I prefer things to fall into place easily rather than forcing it. I speak with a pleasant tone of voice no matter what. If I am irritated, only those closest to me might hear a harsher tone. I don't really gossip and she does. I am more liberal than she is and I tend to vote democratic. I have easier time dealing with my emotions in a balanced way. I think I have more social skills than she does, but I have a weight problem. I notice a distinct difference in how we are treated based on this one thing. Because of her looks, her attitude is overlooked. She definitely receives more attention all-the-way-around. I am not vain, but I know I don't look like a troll from Jim Henson's Labryinth.





replicant added to this post, 5 minutes and 5 seconds later...

With respect to men, my husband is an INTJ. Emotions are more expressed in me. Sometimes I question testing as an INTJ. I had a serious medical issue this year and it sort of freaked me out. I felt vulnerable despite all the logical conclusions I made. And I know one day I am going to die. Not happy about it. However, I just know I didn't want to die so young. Yeah, I was a little upset. Is it so wrong to be upset. Well, he's so logical and extremely INTJ, he just didn't see what the big deal was and why I was upset. I felt hurt because he couldn't relate to why I felt the way I did.

Is it is so wrong to have emotions as long as they don't halt your life and cripple you? Sorry, I am just not Spock. lol

[mkay]

Is it is so wrong to have emotions as long as they don't halt your life and cripple you? Sorry, I am just not Spock. lol

There's no reason you should be Spock. ... I notice that INTJs on the forum seem highly sensitive, actually, very emotional. They just might not display those emotions in public. ... The ones that seem most illogical to me are the ones who try to figure out how they can quash/do away with emotions, like wanting to program themselves into robots, lol. I figure if you know how to deal with emotions, which seem vital to me as a human being, you don't spend time trying to figure out how to make yourself not human, lol.

It looks like many users are teenagers or young adults, so I figure they're still developing / changing, maybe more prone to being emotional because of hormones and such. ... There also seems to be a view that emotions make a person weak. But those who deny their emotions seem weak to me -- I figure they're driven by fear, not wanting to be hurt (further), not wanting to be vulnerable.

[Jakalwarrior]

As for the dominating, masculine, leading part I would like to add this little excerpt from my daily life as an INTJ married to an INTJ.

"What restraunt do you want to go to?"
"I don't care, which one do you want to go to?"
"I dont know, just decide"
"no, you decide"
"you lead damnit!"
"no, you lead, i dont feel like it"
"me either"

Neither of us fit the stereotypes and she is actually a bit more dominating than I am though neither of us likes to lead all of the time. We sometimes trade smoothly based on mood but sometimes neither of us feels like leading!

[replicant]

There's no reason you should be Spock. ... I notice that INTJs on the forum seem highly sensitive, actually, very emotional. They just might not display those emotions in public. ... The ones that seem most illogical to me are the ones who try to figure out how they can quash/do away with emotions, like wanting to program themselves into robots, lol. I figure if you know how to deal with emotions, which seem vital to me as a human being, you don't spend time trying to figure out how to make yourself not human, lol.

It looks like many users are teenagers or young adults, so I figure they're still developing / changing, maybe more prone to being emotional because of hormones and such. ... There also seems to be a view that emotions make a person weak. But those who deny their emotions seem weak to me -- I figure they're driven by fear, not wanting to be hurt (further), not wanting to be vulnerable.

I definitely relate to what you are saying. I think for me, from other INTJs and not necessarily those here (but including my husband in the group), I feel pressured to bury my emotions even abandon them. Emotions are tools in my opinion and if applied properly can make a world of difference in accomplishing something. I don't think they are something that should be discarded; my simple belief is that we should work to achieve a balance in our mental state.

[MacGuffin]

I am an INTJ and my co-worker, she's an INTJ. However, we differ greatly. While each of us has the ability to be blunt - she's less tactful and is not as cautious. She speaks often in a very emotionless almost harsh sounding way. She has some friends but she doesn't have a lot of them.
"Honesty without compassion is brutality."

[Infidel]

As for the dominating, masculine, leading part I would like to add this little excerpt from my daily life as an INTJ married to an INTJ.

"What restraunt do you want to go to?"
"I don't care, which one do you want to go to?"
"I dont know, just decide"
"no, you decide"
"you lead damnit!"
"no, you lead, i dont feel like it"
"me either"

Neither of us fit the stereotypes and she is actually a bit more dominating than I am though neither of us likes to lead all of the time. We sometimes trade smoothly based on mood but sometimes neither of us feels like leading!

I am married to an INTP and that is all too familiar. We are both very stubborn to boot so when we get to that point in the conversation we usually just sneak some crackers from the cupboard when the other is out of the room....hoping the other will give in and decide before we both starve. Its not a power struggle really, I just never care where we go and he just wants someone to decide....I love it.

[Indubitably]

I am married to an INTP and that is all too familiar. We are both very stubborn to boot so when we get to that point in the conversation we usually just sneak some crackers from the cupboard when the other is out of the room....hoping the other will give in and decide before we both starve. Its not a power struggle really, I just never care where we go and he just wants someone to decide....I love it.

lol This sounds exactly like something I would do. Granted, in a relationship with an INTJ I will usually make a decision if it does come to a stand off, or if I think the other person doesn't have a good reason for their decision. If it came to a competition of who could be the most obstinate however, I'd have been plotting my strategy from the first hint of contention. During the entire conversation I'd be thinking, "Hah! She doesn't know what shes in for, I can maintain stubborn pain in the ass mode almost indefinitely, she WILL eventually have to make some sort of judgment before the lack of closure causes her head to implode... wait a minuet, no I can't, the mind is willing but the body is bony and malnourished... eureka!.. a stealth Saltine strike will fortify my position for at least another hour!".

[Kisai]

I doubt this is as much of an "INTJ thing", as it is a male / female thing. More often than not women are more emotionally mature than men, some times very significantly so.


I disagree with this. having had to pull women off of each other when they got down to a fight. One of the most disappointing things I found out about women (in general, with plenty of exceptions for specific individuals, mind you) is how casually they hate things, especially each other.

[Infidel]

"....... If it came to a competition of who could be the most obstinate however, I'd have been plotting my strategy from the first hint of contention. During the entire conversation I'd be thinking, "Hah! She doesn't know what shes in for, I can maintain stubborn pain in the ass mode almost indefinitely, she WILL eventually have to make some sort of judgment before the lack of closure causes her head to implode... !".

This sounds so familiar...

I went overseas once with a work group, and I had to find the nearest "bancomat" so I could withdraw some euro for meals. As I didn't bring enough to get me through more than 24 hours of flights and layovers.

The group was newly formed and I was still in the "observation mode" of the different dynamics....

day 2 - I asked someone to walk with me to the ATM, as we were not permitted to walk alone in this dangerous part of Italy.

Noone had the time to walk with me, too busy socializing and having vino. I borrowed 4 euro so I could buy a bottle of water, because you couldn't drink from the taps.

So I waited.

Day 3 someone offered to buy me lunch, I said "no thank you, I need to go to the bank machine. Will you please walk with me after work so I can take out some Euro". They forgot. Everyone went to supper, wondered why I wasn't there. They came back up to my room and offered to buy me supper, I said "No thanks, I have to get to the ATM." People were very upset, accusing me of being too stubborn, not a team player...etc etc.

Day 4 - Someone came to get me so I could go to the bancomat. I ate like a fiend, and yes, I made that 4 dollars last 2.5 days - spent it all on water - and paid it back as soon as I had my own money again.

So yes....stubborn pain in the ass mode....I can do it, if called for. LOL

Cheers!

[moomoo]

i actually have 2 very very good INTJ male friend and i compare myself to him. We are not much difference in general (when we are alone). we still discuss about ideas for few hours without getting bored just having some quiet slot inbetween to think about new ideas.But when we are around people we tent to act differently.
So i guess female INTJ tent to wear a mask when we were facing people in the world mainly cause i don think people would accept us the way we were. Secretly sometimes i wish that i was a guy then everything would be just perfect. girls are expected to act the way they are while guys have their own defination of how guys should act.
After sometime of being with my other friends i feel so tired acting someone else that i keep quiet the whole entire time and they usually misunderstand me as being antisocial or unhappy about this gathering.But my guy INTJ friend have no problem being himself.
So be it female of male we are not so different afterall. It is the social standard that makes INTJ female an alien. Plus you don recognise me as an INTJ female just like that cause i won't let you do so. I know how to mask my feelings, my problem prefectly (been trained since young)