"Pimp my country" - or mutually consensual colonization

[Night Runner]

This topic was briefly mentioned in the "Colonize Haiti" thread, and I think it deserves some discussion.

Currently, colonization tends to be frowned upon (to say the least) because one country forcibly takes over another one and forces it to do its bidding. What if the colonization was mutually consensual? For example, what if a country realized it hasn't enough resources to care for its people or prosper, and decided that the most rational thing to do would be to swallow its pride and ask a richer, more industrially advanced country for long-term assistance? There could be a national referendum on this issue, and if the majority supported it, the country would become, for all intents and purposes, colonized. There would certainly be contracts and oversight committees to ensure no abuse was taking place, and there'd also be a provision for ending the colonization (for lack of better term) after a certain period of time.

It would be a win-win: the colonized country would enjoy the higher standard of living and more possibilities for its citizens who would have the opportunity to get advanced degrees. (Who would benefit his country more: a PhD in nuclear physics or a dirt farmer?) The colonizing country would get a long-term ally in that region (yay for geopolitics), as well as a new market to expand into.

There's at least one historical precedent for such an arrangement: the Varangian Rus'. "According to the Primary Chronicle, in 862, the Finnic and Slavic tribes rebelled against the Varangian Rus, driving them overseas back to Scandinavia, but soon started to conflict with each other. The disorder prompted the tribes to invite back the Varangian Rus "to come and rule them" and bring peace to the region. Led by Rurik and his brothers Truvor and Sineus, the invited Varangians (called Rus) settled around the town of Holmgård (Novgorod)." (source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.))

[ArtistTyrant]

have you overlooked that there would be less citizens from colonized countries that would be intelligent enough to be able to achieve a PhD in nuclear physics? i see no overall benefit to the colonizing nation, this sounds like meddling internationalism to me

[gecko]

I think the main barrier is the large outflow of money required from the parent country to get the colony 'on its feet'. There is already large opposition from citizens against socialist programs within their borders, let alone for foreigners.

[Lonpone]

Education in poor countries tend to lead to occurrences of brain drain, where the educated abandon the motherland for better pastures. If the only occupation in a region is dirt farmer, then that means there's no other resource in that land besides farming dirt. Seriously, you don't have a untapped gold veins where there's gold, uncut lumber where there is wood, and unused beaches where there is water. Location, location, location. There'd be no point in having a PHD in anything unless they could contribute to the locale's current industry, in this case, better farming infrastructure. Even then, if you've done something for generations, you probably already know what you're doing, so just let the farmer farm.

[ArtistTyrant]

Education in poor countries tend to lead to occurrences of brain drain, where the educated abandon the motherland for better pastures. If the only occupation in a region is dirt farmer, then that means there's no other resource in that land besides farming dirt. Seriously, you don't have a untapped gold veins where there's gold, uncut lumber where there is wood, and unused beaches where there is water. Location, location, location. There'd be no point in having a PHD in anything unless they could contribute to the locale's current industry, in this case, better farming infrastructure. Even then, if you've done something for generations, you probably already know what you're doing, so just let the farmer farm.

Zaire is one of the most resource rich areas in the world, proving your claim as false

[Scatterbrane]

It would be a win-win: the colonized country would enjoy the higher standard of living and more possibilities for its citizens who would have the opportunity to get advanced degrees.

In theory.

There's a major moral hazard involved even with oversight in place, the colonized nation is unlikely to realize the full implications of the deal. The two nations would each need to have a minimal quotient of institutional corruption, lest the deal turn rotten and the colonized nation become little more than a cash cow for powerful interests.

That said, I think it might well be worth a try anyway, especially with limited terms and international oversight guaranteeing that the basic tenets are followed.

[ya lyublyu tebya]

Pimp my country. :laugh:

That actually sounds like a good idea... Coincidentally, I'm reading the Novgorod Chronicles right now. Yep, it does work!

[blueback]

In principle there's nothing wrong with the idea. It would just be a partnership between two entities.

In practice, however, I think the problem would be the complication of national sovereignty. What incentive would the colonizing force have to keep the best interests of the host nation in mind? I can't think of many. What seems most obvious is that the colonists would have a very good incentive to take advantage of the situation and basically turn their colony into the seat of power in the host country. If you want to deal with a country, but you know that their government is useless, do you pretend the government is still in power or do you ignore them and just deal directly with the colonists who are actually in power?

I don't think a government would want to touch that problem, but plenty of corporations would. So the colony would basically turn into a privatized takeover of the host country. This process would begin with the host government making legal concessions to the corporations that run the colony, and would end with the colony extracting more and more legal special-cases until it is effectively not subject to any law. If you get to buy whatever law you want, you don't have to care about law any more. Because other nations have to continue to respect the sovereignty of the host nation (there are lots of pathetically dysfunctional micro-nations that are just as legally sovereign as the United States) the laws the colony bought would have to be respected by other nations.

[Ytterbium]

Didn't Liberia want to become an US state? I don't think the US were so keen on it however.

[ArtistTyrant]

the capital of Liberia is Monrovia, named after James Monroe, who helped them quite a bit...but Liberia isn't an example of colonization, what you'd want to look at in Africa is South Africa, and the Ivory Coast, which was colonized by the French

[LaoTzu]

The Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands joined the United States in 1986....

Not sure what they really gained from it.

[ReinaMorena]

but Liberia isn't an example of colonization

Please look up "American Colonization Society."

[ArtistTyrant]

that was an attempt to get them BACK to Africa, not to control a region that they inhabited

[TechnicolorWeasel]

have you overlooked that there would be less citizens from colonized countries that would be intelligent enough to be able to achieve a PhD in nuclear physics? i see no overall benefit to the colonizing nation, this sounds like meddling internationalism to me
I am not sure if you were truly referring to intelligence, or determination. I intelligence is not measured in knowledge or experience, intelligence is the potential to learn. All humans have that potential to some extent, the true question is, "Would citizens from colonized countries have the determination to achieve a PhD in Nuclear Physics?"

[ReinaMorena]

Oh geez. Seriously?

The African Americans who settled in Liberia were just that - African American. They knew nothing of West African culture, language, etc. because they were generations removed from Africa. In fact, Liberia's history has been characterized by conflict between Americo-Liberians and the Vai, Kru and other groups, as Americo-Liberians, long oppressed in the US, quite sadly became oppressors. With the full backing of the ACS and white Americans. Furthermore, they were and largely remain physically and culturally distinct.

In fact, most African Americans rejected the idea of colonizing Liberia because they weren't African.

By the way, there was a similar attempt to colonize Haiti (look up "Cow Island") that failed miserably, due in part to lack of interest. There was little desire on the part of African Americans to leave the country they helped to build.

I'm all for healthy political discourse, but not if it is with someone who knows not of what they speak. And definitely not with someone who has an underlying agenda.

We get it, you think Europeans are superior. You believe that peoples of African descent are inferior. Even worse, for genetic reasons. I'd invite you to look up "scientific racism" as well, and the horrible things that have resulted from such faulty thinking, but you'd probably deny subscribing to such ideas - most people would deny being racist.

Either way, my point is this - neither your position on the issue of mutually consensual colonization nor the colonization of Africa make sense. They aren't based on an adequate understanding of history. And worse, they are based on a smug sense of superiority that makes further argument futile.

[Angel1]

The Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands joined the United States in 1986....

Not sure what they really gained from it.

The Northern Mariana Islands gained several things from the United States. Among the most important (especially at the time) was the perpetuation of US Defensive responsibility (an act of war against the Northern Mariana Islands is an act of war against the US). The commonwealth receives government subsidies and its qualified citizens are also US citizens. Qualified citizens of the Northern Mariana Islands (actually all the Mariana Islands, but Guam is under a different US jurisdiction) may move to any US State, declare residency, register to vote, and thereafter enjoy all the rights/priveledges of a US citizen living in a US state.