The Great CRPG's of Yore

[eternaltriangle]

I simply cannot imagine the suffering that a younger version of myself, born in say, 1990, would have to go through. I was truly blessed to have been born 7 years earlier, such that my adolescence saw such great titles as Dark Sun (and the classic Strategic Simulations D&D games) and Darklands... then later on, the Fallout series (the best games I have ever played), Baldur's Gate and a rare gem of an action-RPG in System Shock. Even in the dying years of the early 00's there were a few decent products coming out - I liked Arcanum, though it was buggy and the the combat engine sucked. Vampires: The Masquerade Bloodlines had potential too, but ran like a Pinto.

Since the collapse of Interplay, and the rise of software piracy, the quality (in terms of plot, freedom and depth) of CRPG's has declined markedly. The Morrowind series is pretty, but it gets tiring once you get bored of all the randomly generated fetch quests (the latest incarnation was a bit better in that score - which gives me some hope for Fallout III, which they are making). With software piracy making the console market far more lucrative, RPG's have to be made such that they could be marketed to both markets (which an emphasis on the less refined console market), or worse there are these horrid MMORPG's.

Is there any hope for the future? How can CRPG's be produced in the future, in such a fashion that they can make money, without compromising depth?

[Vortex]

dot dot dot . . .

Oh gawd, where to begin. Well, besides the begening, anyways.


Since the collapse of Interplay


You forget how many truly marginal titles interplay put out. They had far more duds than successes. They were hardly the only developer/publisher in that or any other time and were not responsible for nearly all the major titles.


the rise of software piracy

Let me make this clear. Piracy has zero impact on sales, whether those be MP3s, ripped DVDs, or .iso game files. The death of industries is a successful propaganda technique by the MPAA and friends.


The Morrowind series is pretty, but it gets tiring once you get bored of all the randomly generated fetch quests

Elder Scrolls series, thanks. Every quest is made by hand, not randomly generated, and the number of fetch quests are few and far between.


With software piracy making the console market far more lucrative

Consoles are increasing in market share for a number of reasons. Piracy isn't one of them. You can copy Halo 3 just as easily as Halo 2 PC.


RPG's have to be made such that they could be marketed to both markets

Wrong. There are a number of unique titles for both sides. Cross-platform titles have always been around, its more profitable to get your game out to more markets.


or worse there are these horrid MMORPG's.

Game quality is independent of platform.


Is there any hope for the future?

Stop believing in the doomsday propaganda and realize markets move in cycles. Right now, its slanting towards consoles than PC. It won't always be that way.


How can CRPG's be produced in the future, in such a fashion that they can make money, without compromising depth?


Oblivion? Neverwinter Nights? The Witcher? FFXII? Big RPGs are a big undertaking; they are naturally a smaller market of total gaming sales as their worlds are much bigger. We are encountering problems with world design, as game content creation is not scaling at the same rate as rendering or storage abilities (so cost to produce games and minimum threshold of sales for profitiablity are on the rise); this problem is not unique to PC games, or even games alone and afflicts all major players on computers.

[eternaltriangle]

Has software piracy affected growth? Look at the growth in video game sales, and how it has been stagnant since the early 00's. Moreover, given that the proportion of console sales is up, it is pretty obvious that both the share and absolute revenues of computer games is down (software piracy has zero impact? Come on - do you know ANYBODY who paid for their copy of Adobe Photoshop).

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Secondly it IS easier to pirate things on the computer, because you do not have to mod your computer to run pirated software. Moreover, the console market is less tech-savvy than the computer game market (and the RPG market particularly), and so are more likely to know how to pirate things. MMORPG's offer a solution to piracy because of subscription costs. However, I personally don't like them - they are more expensive than regular RPG's, require time-intensive squirrel-killing, so you can "level", and lack the depth (or good role-playing) of hand-crafted old-fashioned games.

RPG's have the highest startup costs, making them the most risky investments: you need a game engine, voice actors, and comparatively more complex dungeons etc. So sales are the same (compared to most industries, which tend to grow, especially new industries), while at the same time, the focus is away from PC games and RPG's.

The "gems" you point to are somewhat dubious. Morrowind, I will grant, is a lot better than its predecessors, as more effort was put into missions. Nonetheless, conversations are still pretty empty (and creepy when you realize that there are only like 5 voice actors in the whole world). The Final Fantasy series has never really captured my imagination either. As for the Witcher, I will admit some ulterior motives to starting this thread. I was hoping people would get angry and shout out worthy titles I was not that familiar with, so I could give them a try.

[DeadSpace]

Sacred Gold, old, diablo clone, but much better. Gothic series, not bad...but not great either.
There has been a serious hit to good RPG's, Oblivion was a let down after the flexibility of Morrowind. Haven't played any lately that are truly engaging. MMO's, but those are enjoyable more for the interaction aspects with other gamers then actual questing or story development.

[Vortex]

Adobe doesn't make their money selling to every teen who wants to change the resolution of his forum Avatar. They want those sorts of people to pirate it.

Why?

It ensures their marketplace dominance. When they train in graphic arts, or apply for a job, they are already familiar with adobe products. Adobe doesn't give a damn whether that familiarity came with a few years of "piracy", as its a small price to pay to ensure every successive generation grows up from day one on their product suite.

Thats a terrible graph. I can't even read the numbers on it without squinting. Repost it in a table or link to a high resolution. Looking at it at face value, I see steady growth up until 2005, where there was a small reduction in sales, and 2006 came right on back with positive sales growth.

You say "piracy". How about one of the million other variables? A slumped economy? Consoles on par with PCs in power without the hassle (not every user wants to configure .ini files)? Consoles doubling as expensive Home-Theater HD/BluRay Players? Consoles having far better networking + voice ability for games across a multitude of titles? Consoles having access to the couch? Consoles not needing to be upgraded?

Blaming piracy is a terrible argument as it doesn't factor in any of these variables. Most pirates? They wouldn't buy the game even if they coudn't pirate it. In other words, Piracy does not reduce total sales numbers. You go into EB Games. There are thousands of individual titles there. You buy one. Did you "steal" every other game?

No. A lost sale is not the same as theft. The vast majority of those who pirate wouldn't buy that game irregardless of how much they enjoy it. What they will do is talk about it, and this is a critical source of viral marketing for small game companies. StarDock games has been releasing several successful games (most notably Sins of a Solar Empire, which got amazing reviews) with *zero* copyright protection. They are flourishing precisely because people are "pirating" the title (a no-name game from a no-name studio. Would you drop $50 on it at EB-Games?), telling their friends how awesome it is, and either the "pirate" or his friends make a purchase.

Its a new business model, yes. Its not a bad business model, nor is it illegal (save for the idiots in congress passing things like the DMCA), nor is it theft, harmful, or in any way malicious. A lost sale is not the same thing as theft. Its the confusion of the two that the MPAA/RIAA so depends upon for their propaganda to work.

Finally, if I stick in a 1:1 iso file into my Xbox, it will play. I probably wont be able to get onto LIVE, but thats true for anything that requires online verification. Getting 1:1 burns is tricky though, I will admit.

Morrowind was well ahead of its time in voice acting when it was released. Oblivion greatly improved it and featured something like a couple hundred hours of voice recordings (IIRC it took up 60% of the games total size). Your problem will always be when using voice recordings is that you either have the exact recording for the text. You can't modify the quest to kill the goblin after the recording without rerecording the entire deal. Think of the design integration required: design a quest, get a good story for the quest, get a level designer to build and script the quest, and find actors for that entire text tree.


Finally: *you* didn't like some of the games to come out. Thats not indicative of an industry wide problem, just your taste with this generation of RPGS. Next year, a new generation will finish baking for your taste testing.

[eternaltriangle]

I just read up on Witcher and bought it... it is downloading from Gamer's gate as I speak (I suppose that means I lost the argument in some sense, but from a utility standpoint I am better off for it).

[bubbles]

I don't know much about RPGs on the computer. The only good RPGs I've played were Playstation or Nintendo games. I haven't played RPGs in a while; the last one I've played was Final Fantasy XII. The Final Fantasy series seem to be getting worse with each new release, maybe it has finally reached its death. I still haven't played Final Fantasy 8 and 7; I'll probably play them in reverse order over the summer (and I will buy the actual disk instead of downloading it). It seems that the newer RPGs in general aren't as great as those from the past since they are trying to branch out to attract more gamers.

[integratedvelocity]

I loved both Morrowind and Oblivion. Though character generation drove me insane for Oblivion. But the horses made up for it, lol.

The first NWN game is another one of my favorites. The plot was excellent (if a little sad). I didn't like NWN2 quite as well, but I haven't played the expansion yet...

I am in awe of the people who make the very very complicated mods for Oblivion.

[AgentofGaming]

Oblivion was great, except I just stopped when I noticed I was installing and debugging mods more than I was playing. The face generation wasn't so good, so I only use Mystic Elf.

Neverwinter Nights is probably my favourite, I played through each of the campaigns 3 times at least.
NWN2 expansion is a lot more streamlined but has a strange sense of continuity from the original storyline as you recover your memories. It makes an excellent storyline although it is a bit weird. Now what you can't do in the ending is what sort of ruins it, but I'm not spoiling that.

As for other RPGs after 2000
Heroes 5 wasn't as good as #4.
Titan Quest just felt like Diablo except more like an unending journey across different cultures.
Fable was hmm, I didn't even finish fable yet because I didn't want to become a 65 year old man.
Dungeon lords was okay but extremely glitchy
KOTOR I and II was great, but #2's ending wasn't fulfilling.
Lionheart was interesting until after the 2nd act.
Europa 1400 & The Guild 2 are really good but they are more strategy than RPG.
Dungeon Siege just feels like a one way path and #2 I never got into it.
Dark Messiah I haven't played but I heard it wasn't as good as expected.

[integratedvelocity]

I usually try to get a decent setup before I really start playing Oblivion. I don't change much once I get past character generation. Hated Dungeon Siege, way too linear for me.

I enjoy the influence aspect of NWN2 and KOTOR II. It makes multiple plays much more enjoyable. I always get so angry when I finish KOTOR II! They killed it! There is a group that is working on fixing it, but it's been years, so I don't know it they will ever finish it.

What classes do you usually play as in RGPs? I am almost inevitably a stealthy rogue sort. Though I did do a Scoundrel/Jedi Guardian combination for KOTOR I. Mainly because I can't stand not knowing what is in containers.

[AgentofGaming]

I like to have my character all planned out as well, it does suck when after defeating Mehrunes Dagon, I realized I didn't like my character.
I don't see how a game could get more linear than DS, there's only forward and backward.

I've pretty much given up waiting on Team Gizka to finish up their mod, it seems they don't want to release beta either, so we're left hanging.

I supposed most people would play rogue/stealthy. I usually play Wizard/Consular, I like arcane and the force, there's a lot more variety and flexibility and perhaps creativity in there than the melee. KOTOR I I chose scout, because you got those cheap implants to boost stats.
As for containers and even traps? I laugh at them, Level 2 Spell -Knock, Level 3 Spell -Find Trap. NWN1 you could even outright smash them for no penalty, but not for KOTOR. KOTOR I always need a rogue in my party, nothing more disappointing than cracking open a box to find broken components of what would have been awesome equipment.

[Likethewind]

I feel sad that nobody mentioned the best cRPG EVER. Planescape: Torment.

As for other IE games - Baldur's gate 1 with easy tutu and NPC project is one of the best games you can have; both BG1 and BG2 when modded gain new quality and become the same level as P:T.

I always liked FF and jRPGs in general, but you may say that jRPG is a sub genre, so lets concentrate on other titles.

When it comes to action RPGs, I liked Vampire the Masquarade: Redemption (but not bloodlines! I love pen&paper VtM, and imho Bloodlines' plot is one of the most ridiculous and weak you can think of) and The Witcher (though I have LOTS of criticism here, as I am a Pole - and a great lover of Mr. Sapkowski's writings - and know exactly where all of their errors and defects lie and... well, and basically I know that the game is screwed. Still enjoyable, though).

ID2 with the NPC project is passable, though still too much of a hack'n'slash for my tastes. (You can download the project here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)).

Spellforce 1 (but not 2 - it is an overkill for me) has some potential -- a pity nobody bothered with modding it into a good game. It is not an rpg, though but a hybrid rpg/rts.

[Uytuun]

I feel sad that nobody mentioned the best cRPG EVER. Planescape: Torment.

I so agree.

[ShaiGar]

The lights went out in our toilets at work a while ago and it immediately went pitch black. My first thought was "I will be eaten by a Grue."

[Moriarty]

The lights went out in our toilets at work a while ago and it immediately went pitch black. My first thought was "I will be eaten by a Grue."

:laugh:

[eternaltriangle]

The lights went out in our toilets at work a while ago and it immediately went pitch black. My first thought was "I will be eaten by a Grue."

That would be appropriate except that Zork is an adventure game!

Though, in the spirit of thread hijacking...
Want some rye? Course y'do. Whose like us? Damn few. And there all dead...

I played that game 14 years ago, and that stupid Boos had me stuck forever. The day I got to see the world under the mill was like the best day of all time.

[ShaiGar]

I was stuck in that damn windmill with that bastard for fucking DAYS. RTZ

[integratedvelocity]

Am I too young? I have never heard of a Grue...

[ShaiGar]

Then it's best if you sleep with the lights off.