Patriotism?

[Anhedonic Lake]

Are you patriotic? If so why? To me,it makes little sense in feeling pride in something that was due to fortune and involves no personal achievement.

[Mader]

My grandparents and great-grandparents left a dangerous place to start a new life here.

I am fully aware of how lucky I am to live here rather than in Russia or the other locations.

I can say whatever I want, no matter how stupid or political.
I can drive anywhere I want with out clearence or papers.
I can earn any job I want, it does not depend on who I know or how much I pay in bribes.
I am proud and grateful that the US is able to help Haiti and other folks. I am proud that we in the US do this without a referendum and without moving speeches by our politicians.
I am proud and grateful that we change political control of this country every 4 years without fighting or protesting or bringing in the military to maintain the peace.
I am proud and grateful that the US has fought in many wars to help others when we could have sat it out.
I am proud and grateful that I have several family members currently serving overseas, not just blowing things up, but fixing things, helping the small farmer, helping to bring water and electricity to the poor, helping maintain peace. All can and have risen in the ranks by effort, not connections, not bribes.

I am grateful and proud that when my sister-in-law was part of the effort to put Iraqis to work, she was asked by the Iraqis how much they needed to pay her for giving them the contracts and my sister-in-law, along with everyone in her unit, was stunned that someone expected to bribe them for work. They did not take bribes, it had not even occured to them that such a question would be asked.

I am grateful and proud that our soldiers are willing to die, willing to die to prevent the collateral damage, shooting deaths of the innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our war dead would be less than 1/2 of what it is if we were not so careful to fight only the bad guys.

Any help.

[hubcap]

Are you patriotic? If so why? To me,it makes little sense in feeling pride in something that was due to fortune and involves no personal achievement.
Go serve in the Marine Corps for 4 years.

[Cooper]

I was a United States Marine Corp 1st Lieutenant Marine Corp Intellegence Activity Anti-terrorism Unit Commander. Damn Fucking straight I'm patriotic.

[Causa Mortis]

Are you patriotic? If so why? To me,it makes little sense in feeling pride in something that was due to fortune and involves no personal achievement.

LOL if I lived in the UK I wouldn't be very patriotic either :P The country has had like 2 cool things since WW2: Richard Branson and the Beatles. ;)

[khadi]

No, I am not patriotic. I am grateful for my life but that is not the same thing.

I think in order to be patriotic one has to identify with the qualities he/she characterizes a country as having. Then any negative word about the country becomes a personal attack. Escalating to wars, etc.

I see patriotism as an overextended sense of tribe loyalty. An adaptation that had its uses but can be dangerously manipulated now that we no longer live in tribes.

[Causa Mortis]

I think in order to be patriotic one has to identify with the qualities he/she characterizes a country as having.

So I take it then that you're frightened by anyone who loves The Departed, probably the most quintessentially American movie ever made, and who is patriotic?

This is America...what the fuck do you think this is...you don't make money you're a fucking douchebag. So what are you going to do? (punch) That's the spirit - make more fucking money

I don't wanna be a product of my environment, I want my environment to be a product of me

If there's one thing I've got against the black chappies, its this: no one gives it to you, you have to take it.

You're a worker, you'll rise fast

No tiki, no laundry

Here, in this country one guy brings the items...and the other guy...he pays 'em

A man makes his own way, you have to take it, non serviam

God I love that movie. Achievement, violence, hard work, power, inequality, competition, energy, pugnacity...its perfect.

[LaoTzu]

My Country tends to reflect my ideals, so in a sense; it is part of me.... like family.

That said, I have never considered myself blindly patriotic. I call it as I see it.

[Dodeca]

Published on Friday, September 28, 2001 in the National Post (Canada)
Shopping is Patriotic, Leaders Say
by Jill Vardy in St. John's and Chris Wattie

ST. JOHN'S - Western leaders, worried about the possibility of a recession fuelled by terrorist attacks in the United States, are urging their citizens to spend money, take vacations and buy new cars and homes.
Jean Chr�tien, George Bush and Tony Blair yesterday all called on consumers not to be spooked by the cataclysmic attacks of Sept. 11.

Mr. Bush urged Americans to "get on the airlines, get about the business of America" as he announced improved security measures on commercial flights.

Mr. Blair used a news conference at 10 Downing St. to appeal to the British public to return to everyday life, including their usual spending habits, to fend off recession.

"People in this country ask what should they do at a time like this," Mr. Blair said. "The answer is that they should go about their daily lives: to work, to live, to travel and to shop -- to do things in the same way as they did before Sept. 11."

And Mr. Chr�tien urged Canadians to face down terrorists with their wallets.

"Don't cancel your plans ... we have to keep the travel and tourism industry alive. It is the way to fight back," the Prime Minister told almost 500 people at a Liberal fundraising dinner last night in St. John's.

Mr. Chr�tien observed that interest rates have been cut to the lowest level in years, "so it is time to go out and get a mortgage, to buy a home, to buy a car."

Some American officials are even calling a trip to the mall an act of patriotism as the United States tries to rebound and rebuild.

Rudolph Giuliani, the Mayor of New York, has said that his battered city needs "the best shoppers in the world" to return to restaurants, Broadway shows and shops.

And local officials in Florida have declared this weekend "Freedom Weekend," a time for people to do their patriotic duty and spend money.

"Go out and contribute to the economy," Alex Penelas, the Miami-Dade County Mayor, said at a news conference yesterday. "As my wife said, it has never been more patriotic to go shopping."

Mr. Chr�tien told delegates at a telecommunications conference in St. John's they showed "courage" for travelling so soon after the attacks. "You have come from 20 countries to St. John's. You deserve compliments and thanks because this is extremely important," he said. "The economy of the world needs people to go back to their lives."

"We will not get spooked by these incidents," Mr. Chr�tien said. "We're not in bad shape because I know the resolve of the Canadian people in difficult circumstances."

Mr. Blair yesterday played down concerns that terrorists could be preparing to attack Britain or the United States with chemical or biological weapons.

Mr. Blair, who told Parliament immediately after the U.S. attacks that terrorists might be prepared to use chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, said some subsequent reports had been "alarmist."

But while he acknowledged these are difficult times, the British Prime Minister said: "We must not let these events shake our confidence in ourselves, in our country and in our way of life."

He said the fundamentals of the British economy have not changed, and there is no reason why people should not "carry on being confident in the strengths of our economy and in the things we normally do.''

Americans are being reminded the U.S. economy, badly shaken by the attacks and teetering near recession, could do with some consumer exuberance.

Bob Graham, a Florida Senator, stopped short of a call to the mall, but said this week that everyone could play a role in bolstering the economy by getting on with their lives and "living like Americans."

Several letters in U.S. newspapers have urged people to keep spending.

"The patriotic thing to do is: Hold your stocks and buy more; get on an airplane and get on with doing business; start shopping again,'' said one letter to The Miami Herald this week. "America, you love to shop, so get going."

Miami, like many U.S. cities feeling the effects of slumping air travel and tourism, could do with some ''shopping for America.'' The city's Dadeland Mall, one of the busiest retail outlets in the country with more than 200 shops, was nearly deserted yesterday.

[Angel1]

Those Americans who read the History of America as much as I do cannot help but to be patriotic about our country. Yes, there are black marks in our history. There are things that we have done that we continue to pay for to this very day. However, there is also a lot of good that we have done. In peacefully assuming the reigns of the free world from the United Kingdom and in rising up to meet the challenges of an expansionist Soviet regime immediately thereafter, we prevented anothe blood bath on the scale of WWII. Have we been able to achieve perfect peace as leaders of the free world and later leaders of the world (period)? No, but so many of these wars could have been so much worse without the US there to keep the conflicts small. When two small countries go to war, a larger country may want to help their ally, but a glare sent by the US can stop the escalation of that conflict.

When I look at the history of this country, I see all that the men and women who have risen up when the time was necessary have given me and I am so grateful. They have my heartfelt thanks. The country that these people defended was not the government; sure they fought/fight under the government, but they don't fight for the government. They country that they fought/fight for is the commonality of her citizens and the ideals of her mission statement (The Constitution).

Yes, I am patriotic. I do not believe that there is any country that could put all these elements together in such a way as to endear my faith and love except for the United States of America. However, I recognize our flaws and because I am so patriotic I seek to repair these flaws.

[True Rune]

No, I'm not patriotic, and "my country" doesn't need me to be. I'll admit it's nice, but all these labels are extrinsic and I cannot "love" them.

[Scatterbrane]

I don't identify with any nation. I identify with people.

I don't care about the group. I care about the individuals who happen to be a part of it.

I only care about this nation insofar as it being unstable or unproductive is not good for those living in it.

[Valiyn]

I am very critical of failings my government to uphold the constitution and I love the people there of under their care - as such I am patriotic. It obviously goes alot farther then just that, but patriotism isn't following the government - it's bettering the place you live for you and your fellow citizens at the very least. I think Penn and Teller say it best in their flag-burning skit.

[Synchronicity]

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.

The term patriot has been somewhat perverted in my mind thanks to its overuse in the context of war, particularly during George Bush's presidency and the Iraq War. These days it smacks to me of jingoism and Team America-style politics. I am still grateful that I am a citizen of the US, for all the affluence and security it affords, but I have a strong love of different cultures and would probably be just as happy living in a number of other countries.

[ElstonGunn]

On an ideological level, I'm not really sure what defines a country. There are borders in place, but if you were going to start from a blank slate, why should they be where they are today (if they even should be there at all)? I don't know what makes me that different from a Canadian. I live about 20 miles away from the border, so there are some things that I can relate to Canadians about more than I can relate to Texans or Californians. I've spent more time in Canada, the UK, and Germany than I have in Utah or Massachusetts.

There are "American values," but I don't know how different those are in comparison to "British values" or "Swiss values." I get the impression that in order to end up with values that every American can agree on, you'd have to pick things so vague that every person in the world (or at least the western world) would also agree on. And if you didn't make them that vague, you couldn't reasonably call them American values since half of the country disagreed with them. Speaking of that, I've read that the "American Dream" (upward socio-economic movement) is more likely to be attained in Denmark (and other social democracies) than in the US.

Historically, the US has done a lot of good things, and I appreciate that. It has also done a lot of bad things. I don't think patriotism is a question of piling up all the good and all the bad and seeing which side is bigger. There are specific things about the US that are worth being proud of, but for me personally, those things don't erase the bad things that the country has done. On the basis of the historical record, I don't think it's possible to boil everything down to a black or white answer. The presence of blemishes on the American historical record doesn't eliminate the bright spots, and vice versa.

The standard of living that I enjoy as an American is definitely worth appreciating, too. But acknowledging that I was fortunate enough to be born inside a certain set of arbitrary lines isn't the same thing as being proud of what's contained within those lines. Plus, I still don't think my standard of living on a day-to-day basis would be that different if I had been born in Ireland or Sweden.

If you give patriotism a futuristic twist, then I guess that would be my best shot at calling myself a patriot. I don't expect the US to last forever as the "greatest" country in the world (however you want to define that) anymore than England and Spain lasted forever as the most influential countries in their own eras of grandeur. But I don't expect the US to go down the tubes in my lifetime, or even within the lifetime of anyone who will be born within my lifetime. It takes a long time for empires to crumble. England was at the height of its power, what, 100 years ago? And that's still a good place to live. It takes to long to get anything done in the US, which is why we won't fall apart overnight.


EDIT: After re-reading what I've said, I noticed that I have a trend towards exclusivity in my thinking about patriotism. I guess I read the question as something more like, "What are you proud to be American about that you could not claim otherwise?" In other words, "America is a democracy" doesn't count to me because several other countries in the world are democracies of one sort or another.

Does anyone else see it that way, or am I thinking about it in an unusual way, here?

[Wien1938]

This might sound silly, but I get patriotic on train journeys in the English countryside. I love my country enough that if I was asked to, I would fight and die for it. It is something deep inside me, that I love this country more than any other.
It is something emotional and I believe natural to love one's country; to feel an affinity with one's fellow men, to love the quirks and madnesses of your people, culture and land. To not love your country is to be alienated from it and that would be a very sad thing indeed.

I think this article (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) says it very well, even as I read it as an atheist.

[Night Runner]

My first country viewed me as nothing more than a guinea pig and, later on, potential cannon fodder for its neverending war. My second (current) country views me as nothing more than a statistic. I have plans to move again by the decade's end. It should work better, on my own terms.

I am no patriot.

[Warrior]

I'm very patriotic. The US has done more good for more people than any other nation that has ever existed. We're not perfect and there is considerable room for improvement, but we have a system that allows us, as Americans, to make the changes that are necessary. I also take the responsibilities of being an American citizen seriously.

Unfortunately, I came to this understanding after I passed the best age range to join the military. I wish I had taken the opportunity to be in the armed forces. I'm sure I would enjoy it for a variety of reasons. To some extent, I feel an even stronger obligation to take other duties of American citizenship seriously because I didn't take advantage of the opportunity to serve in the military.

[Double Victory]

Absolutely. My country is not perfect, but it is my home. America is like my family; they may drive me crazy, and it may be that sometimes I need to be away from them for a while, but I will always love them.

I love America because of the ideals we were founded on, and because of our freedoms today. I get annoyed by the people here who are too loud and obnoxious, and even though I'm not typically a loud person, there are times when, "America, fuck yeah!" comes to mind. And if I shouted the first part of that in any of the places I go, there would be more than a few people to finish it for me.

I just finished my third year as a cadet in AFROTC. One more to go until I commission as an officer in the Air Force, and I can't wait.

Also, football.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot what I was originally going to write about. My family is poor, blue-collared workers. My mom is getting ready to file for bankruptcy, not because she bought more than she could afford but because she married the wrong people. The government gives me and my brother grants for school because our mom's income is so low. They paid for my healthcare when I was underage. I fully intend to make that the best damn investment they've ever made. (That may not actually be feasible but you get the idea....)

My brother is in his first year of aerospace engineering. My other brother has another year of high school but he's looking at biology/chemistry right now (was previously computer programming). My sister (11) wants to be an oceanographer. We're the first in our family line to go to college. I am extremely grateful for the opportunity we've been given. Just one of us right out of college will make more than both our parents' incomes combined.

[Warrior]

Also, football.

And baseball. Can't believe I forgot baseball!

[Zsych]

I think patriotism is a valuable property to have (whether or not it makes much sense) - it allows people to protect their society and work for the common good when the society is under threat, rather than striking out for individual benefit or leaving in a way that the society is harmed by their actions.

Alternatively, you can think of it as paying your debt. You took advantage of the resources of your country, of all of the things that past generations built. You were granted opportunities other people did not have. You can show some loyalty in return for that. Its not respectable to just take and not give back.

Working together, associating with other people and groups, allows people to build together what they cannot apart. That association of self to the larger whole, is valuable.

[GeniusPr0]

All bonds that lead to emotional responses are both weaknesses and strength depending on the controlling forces that lie within the interrelated system. Patriotism is just another one added in the pile. It can start wars and fights or it can lead to increased morale and psychological benefits for the country/environment.

One must disconnect from society to see it for what it truly is. It is simply a designer's perspective. One can then marvel at it's beauty and simplicity while then realizing that controlling is as easy as 1-2-3.

Patriotism is just like anything else really; a great threat to a controlling system or another pawn ready for action.

I am and will never be a patriot, but I do respect the honorable choices.

[Elfrun]

Go serve in the Marine Corps for 4 years.

I was a United States Marine Corp 1st Lieutenant Marine Corp Intellegence Activity Anti-terrorism Unit Commander. Damn Fucking straight I'm patriotic.

I believe most people who are involved in military service would feel patriotic. Before my involvement with our Army I appreciated my country and the democracy and standard of living I was afforded but I wouldn't have called myself patriotic, since my involvement I'd quote Cooper and say "Damn Fucking straight I'm patriotic".

[Kisai]

No. I am a citizen of the world. I like people as a whole, not which country they came from.

[Silence]

To echo a sentiment on this thread, damn fucking straight I'm a patriot. I'm a veteran, my spouse is a veteran, and I have had the privilege to visit other countries and meet incredibly fine people from all over the world.

[Elfrun]

No. I am a citizen of the world. I like people as a whole, not which country they came from.

Why would being patriot have an effect on how/if you like people whatever country they come from?

A patriot is one who loves and defends his or her country, if has nothing to do with other people or other countries for me.

[mormeguil]

I am most certainly not a patriot. I like my country but it's not worth dying for. It's only really a structure in wich I was born

[shanex97]

I am very proud of my country,and at the moment i can support it's foreign policy. My country allows me freedom,and a standard of living that few outside of my country are able to enjoy. (excluding western europe,our northern brothers,and two countries in asia). If you really examine it closely the U.S,Canada,and most of western europe are basically one big country anyway. The chief difference among them are some minor cultural differences.

[Malotis]

I live in a country where citizens who make minimum wage and are living in poverty are being taxed so that the government can fight wars under false pretenses.
I live in a country with the world's highest incarceration rates.
I live in a country that incarcerates citizens for non-violent and victimless crimes.
I live in a country where 10% of the population controls 90% of the wealth.
I live in a country with 2 million homeless and 50 million with out medical insurance.
I live in a country that ran concentration camps of its own during ww2.
And all to say nothing of the steady rise and increase of the income tax since it was first introduced in 1913...

No, I'm not patriotic.

[Cooper]

I live in a country where citizens who make minimum wage and are living in poverty are being taxed so that the government can fight wars under false pretenses.
I live in a country with the world's highest incarceration rates.
I live in a country that incarcerates citizens for non-violent and victimless crimes.
I live in a country where 10% of the population controls 90% of the wealth.
I live in a country with 2 million homeless and 50 million with out medical insurance.
I live in a country that ran concentration camps of its own during ww2.
And all to say nothing of the steady rise and increase of the income tax since it was first introduced in 1913...

No, I'm not patriotic.


You live a counrty where you can say all that and not disappear.
You live in a counrty where you have the right to vote.
You live in a country that gives you all you have without asking you to put your life on the line for it.
You live in a counrty that people volunteer to die for you if they are asked.

[BlackOp]

I'm not sure what that word even means...obviously, a lot of different things to many people. Most definitions are a series of slogans and idealistic regurgitation that have been force fed since birth. That said...I can not be patriotic, at least how the average person mindlessly spouts it. If one thinks fighting in a war makes them so.... all you have to do is trace who decides these actions...and its underlining motives. Was our freedom really at stake in any of these events.. that and the overwhelming evidence of political corruption. I dont think America is #1...no chest-beating here...just happens to be where I was born. It will dissipate like all the others. I am not a liar or give unquestioned loyalty to impostors ...so I cannot be patriotic in it's current state. It's an ideal...a word. I could potentially be patriotic...but that world doesnt exist and never has.

[Antares]

A country is a political division. Personally, I'm disenchanted enough with those slimy politicians, I don't need to like the result of their bargains and conquests too. I accept politicians as a necessary evil, and countries as a convenience to maintain a certain regime. I have no national identity. I see "my own" people as collectivist, traditional and malleable. In many ways, "other" people have just as many faults as my own. My country of origin was for a time the strongest and the richest nation in the world, just as Rome, Spain, Britain, USSR and the United States have been. It has since fallen, and will rise again. All of the others have fallen from the status of superpower as well, and America is no exception. It had been a superpower since the late 19th century and World War I, scarcely a century. Britain rose in status notably after defeating the Spanish Armada in 1588, and declined after World War 2. None of these will be permanent.

So I take it then that you're frightened by anyone who loves The Departed, probably the most quintessentially American movie ever made, and who is patriotic?

Good God. That movie is a Hollywood remake of a Cantonese action flick with the same plot, titled Infernal Affairs. Very American.

[gecko]

You live a counrty where you can say all that and not disappear.
You live in a counrty where you have the right to vote.
You live in a country that gives you all you have without asking you to put your life on the line for it.
You live in a counrty that people volunteer to die for you if they are asked.

Yes, and yet I do not share any of it. I am a byproduct of events, glorious sacrifices, and ferocious battles which I can never truly understand and thus never fully appreciate.

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori - Homer
"It is glorious and honourable to die for one's country."

Patriotism is a dream to those who cannot participate, a beautiful sunrise to those who can, and a delusion to hicks who put confederate flags in front of their trailer parks. Once that disillusionment sets in among those who simply are barred from its wondrous qualities, it leaves a slightly bitter aftertaste.

I am every person without genetic and social fortune standing next to a billboard portraying an ideal human brushing his teeth, or wearing a brand name polo shirt.

I will never 'fight the good fight', I will never sacrifice myself for an ideal that is not close to my heart. I don't even have that option!

Patriotism is an idea, and it has pre-requisites. Oh, you have peanut allergies? You can't be all you can be. You can watch, and appreciate other people who can do what you cannot. It is not even that you cannot do what they do, more that we use peanut oil and can't guarantee you won't die from exposure. Sorry, not fair, but it's all good! You can live like an American - work hard, fight the good fight at home! Maybe help some impoverished kids - it's the same thing isn't it? Or you can celebrate the American flag at some hick gathering and fire your rifles and talk about how the Mexicans are taking our jobs! Gosh, I am just invigorated to no end by how much I can serve my country by being a civilian! But gecko, you can join the FBI, the NSA, or the CIA! Not without a college degree. Not without meeting those psych tests, and being an upstanding member of society(I have no one to vouch for me), and whatever other arbitrary hoops I have to jump through. So in the end, I am just another fifth digit of some decimal point value on a government research file. And honestly, from a young age I was more interested in joining the Army anyway.

I am disillusioned - and it isn't because I am intelligent and brilliant or even overly cynical. My disillusionment stems from my mundane hardships. To be slapped with mediocrity upon mediocrity, granted the same difficulty with personal struggles as anyone, but without any glory, nor the option to openly pursue such. No, I am not ranting nor complaining and I require no emotional support nor optimistic platitudes, this is simply reality. Reality for all the ugly people who hide in their insecurities, for all those who need to work harder based on stereotypical realities, those who are persecuted and ostracized for falling on the wrong ends of that good ole' distribution curve.

How does this fit with patriotism, you ask? Ugly people do not become models, stupid people do not understand, fat people get picked on in the schoolyard. And every inglorious, mundane, mediocre detail that follows. People who are barred from what is the pinnacle of patriotism(and also society's great conflagration of ideals regarding beauty, success, sex, love)- service to one's country, by default are not allowed to have true patriotism - respect, sacrifice, knowing that you are serving a good cause by serving your country(or at least believing it).

I cannot be patriotic because in the end, someone died for my rights, someone fought for this, someone started a movement. This has nothing to do with my country, it is the result of the founding fathers, the citizens who rose up against the British, the slaves who toiled in the South for so many years, and every scientist, engineer, worker, who had a hand in every event leading up to the details that directly benefit me. I will never know what it is like to do battle. Call me naive or fucked in the head, but there is something divinely freeing in knowing exactly who the enemy is, experiencing the teamwork and brotherhood between soldiers(I imagine), and performing sometimes morally gray actions in the service of greater good(no, I don't want to kill babies for fun).

So, am I proud of my country? I don't know what that means. My country is a collection of people and objects, influenced by former people and objects. I am fortunate that I was born within these boundaries - that much I will acknowledge.

Patriotism is only for the poets, the idiots, and the beautiful(warriors). None of which describes me.

Feel free to disregard my post if you subscribe to a less extreme definition of "Patriotism" - I know I know, you just appreciate your country and your fortune for being born here - I get it. However, most definitions of patriotism imply love of one's country, and merely being thankful you were not born in Africa doesn't sound like love to me.

[ya lyublyu tebya]

I have lots of the warm-and-fuzzy kind of patriotism for my countries of ancestry, like if hear someone speaking the languages or if I unconsciously do something typical of one of them, it'll make me smile. I'm not delusional about it, nor do I think any of them are perfect, though.

As for where I live now (America), it's a love-hate thing. Love the freedom and opportunities, hate how the society loves to quash them.

[Dodeca]

Although patriotism is used in certain vernaculars as a synonym for nationalism,
nationalism is not necessarily considered an inherent part of patriotism.

Among the ancient Greeks,
patriotism consisted of notions concerning language, religious traditions, ethics, law, and devotion to the common good, rather than pure identification with a nation-state.

Scholar J. Peter Euben writes that for the Greek philosopher Socrates,
"patriotism does not require one to agree with everything that his country does and would actually promote analytical questioning in a quest to make the country the best it possibly can be."

- Wikipedia

[tooboku]

Are you patriotic? If so why? To me,it makes little sense in feeling pride in something that was due to fortune and involves no personal achievement.

Yes I am. I'm not over the top when expressing it but it has always been there. I get what you're saying. Unlike most of my counterparts here in Canada, I did NOT go crazy partying all night when the men's hockey team won the gold medal at the Olypics. My foreign roommate told me the other night "You guys won the hockey game!" to which I replied "I didn't win any hockey game".

However, you are a participant of the culture whether you acknowledge it or not. It is part of your identity. You are a single cell in the organizm which is your nation. You go to work, do groceries, take part in recreational activities, you vote, write to your congressman, and so fourth. A single blood cell may not seem so significant to itself but without it and it's commrades, the body will suffocate. This may be an oversimplificantion but you are a vital part of your nation. To hate your nation, to hate your culture is to hate yourself in some respect as well.

I live in a country where citizens who make minimum wage and are living in poverty are being taxed so that the government can fight wars under false pretenses.
I live in a country with the world's highest incarceration rates.
I live in a country that incarcerates citizens for non-violent and victimless crimes.
I live in a country where 10% of the population controls 90% of the wealth.
I live in a country with 2 million homeless and 50 million with out medical insurance.
I live in a country that ran concentration camps of its own during ww2.
And all to say nothing of the steady rise and increase of the income tax since it was first introduced in 1913...

No, I'm not patriotic.

The wonderful thing about a free society is that you can disapprove of everything it does and still be patriotic. In fact, to blindly follow the whims of the president is in itself unpatrioc. I believe Roosevelt said something along those lines.

The a single cell I suppose can't do much to change what the rest of the body want to do but it can change those around it. That is how infections spread no? Not through anything that cell does but through millions of small subtle changes that seemingly don't make any difference in and of themselves. This is a bad metaphore but you are a part of a body with a relatively weak immune system. Feel free to spread the infection.

If the disparity bothers you, give to charity.
If crime bothers you, help offer criminals a way out.
If the wars bother you, reduce your consumption because over history there were really, if you think about it, only two real causes for war; territory and resources.

[zibber]

No. "National" borders are arbitrary. All living beings should be solidary to the best of their ability.

My grandparents and great-grandparents left a dangerous place to start a new life here.

I am fully aware of how lucky I am to live here rather than in Russia or the other locations.

I can say whatever I want, no matter how stupid or political.
I can drive anywhere I want with out clearence or papers.
I can earn any job I want, it does not depend on who I know or how much I pay in bribes.
I am proud and grateful that the US is able to help Haiti and other folks. I am proud that we in the US do this without a referendum and without moving speeches by our politicians.
I am proud and grateful that we change political control of this country every 4 years without fighting or protesting or bringing in the military to maintain the peace.
I am proud and grateful that the US has fought in many wars to help others when we could have sat it out.
I am proud and grateful that I have several family members currently serving overseas, not just blowing things up, but fixing things, helping the small farmer, helping to bring water and electricity to the poor, helping maintain peace. All can and have risen in the ranks by effort, not connections, not bribes.

I am grateful and proud that when my sister-in-law was part of the effort to put Iraqis to work, she was asked by the Iraqis how much they needed to pay her for giving them the contracts and my sister-in-law, along with everyone in her unit, was stunned that someone expected to bribe them for work. They did not take bribes, it had not even occured to them that such a question would be asked.

I am grateful and proud that our soldiers are willing to die, willing to die to prevent the collateral damage, shooting deaths of the innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our war dead would be less than 1/2 of what it is if we were not so careful to fight only the bad guys.

Any help.

This is a nice example of the blind patriotism inspired by the exorbitantly fruitful "post 9/11" domestic propaganda assault.

You live a counrty where you can say all that and not disappear.

Look into COINTELPRO. It's not really that black and white.

To echo a sentiment on this thread, damn fucking straight I'm a patriot. I'm a veteran, my spouse is a veteran, and I have had the privilege to visit other countries and meet incredibly fine people from all over the world.

What does that have to do with any specific country?


If the disparity bothers you, give to charity.
If crime bothers you, help offer criminals a way out.
If the wars bother you, reduce your consumption because over history there were really, if you think about it, only two real causes for war; territory and resources.

None of this individual activity affects the system. The only constructive way out is to revolt.

[Yhor]

Fuckin' A I'm a patriot. Hoorah!

Although I may loathe actions and progressions of my government, especially dealing with bureaucracies , I would readily die to defend our Constitution/Bill of Rights. I love my country because of it's inherent values and it's rise from oppression.

I dislike many Americans, but I'll fight for their right, to the death, to be able to do the things they do that bring about my discontent.

[Warrior]

I dislike many Americans, but I'll fight for their right, to the death, to be able to do the things they do that bring about my discontent.

I share the sentiment. This seems to be something that sets Americans apart in the world. I never hear this from folks from other countries. I'm curious to know if this thought is widely shared around the world by people from places other than the US.

[Moriarty]

When I was younger I was Patriotic. I was taught the Pledge of Allegiance and recited it every morning before class began. Everyone did.

I recognized my Patriotism later as a sort of Pavlovian response to questions of Patriotism.

[Ytterbium]

I don't like to call myself a patriot. What is a patriotism anyway? But do I like my country? Yep. Would I fight for it or die trying? Probably.

[tooboku]

None of this individual activity affects the system. The only constructive way out is to revolt.

I'm all for protest. It's one of the greatest things about democracy but to the point of revolt? When you epmloy aggressive force to harm people because those people are using aggressive force to harm people, you become a hypocrit. The corrupt system is just replaced with another corrupt system albeit a more favourable institution until it finally corrupts further.

In any case, my point in that post wasn't about changing the system. It was about freeing the mind. The system will eventually change on it's own and then eventually go back. In the mean time, why wait for the system to change things when there are things around you, even if on a small scale, which you do have the power to change?

[Dodeca]

I'm all for protest. It's one of the greatest things about democracy but to the point of revolt? When you epmloy aggressive force to harm people because those people are using aggressive force to harm people, you become a hypocrit. The corrupt system is just replaced with another corrupt system albeit a more favourable institution until it finally corrupts further.

In any case, my point in that post wasn't about changing the system. It was about freeing the mind. The system will eventually change on it's own and then eventually go back. In the mean time, why wait for the system to change things when there are things around you, even if on a small scale, which you do have the power to change?

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

-George W. Bush

The USA PATRIOT Act, commonly known as the "Patriot Act", is a statute enacted by the United States Government and signed into law by President George W. Bush on October 26, 2001. The contrived acronym stands for Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001 (Public Law Pub.L. 107-56).
The Act increases the ability of law enforcement agencies to search telephone, e-mail communications, medical, financial, and other records; eases restrictions on foreign intelligence gathering within the United States; expands the Secretary of the Treasury’s authority to regulate financial transactions, particularly those involving foreign individuals and entities; and broadens the discretion of law enforcement and immigration authorities in detaining and deporting immigrants suspected of terrorism-related acts. The act also expands the definition of terrorism to include domestic terrorism, thus enlarging the number of activities to which the USA PATRIOT Act’s expanded law enforcement powers can be applied.
The Act was passed by wide margins in both houses of Congress and was supported by members of both the Republican and Democratic parties. Opponents of the law have criticized its authorization of indefinite detentions of immigrants; searches through which law enforcement officers search a home or business without the owner’s or the occupant’s permission or knowledge; the expanded use of National Security Letters, which allows the FBI to search telephone, e-mail, and financial records without a court order; and the expanded access of law enforcement agencies to business records, including library and financial records. Since its passage, several legal challenges have been brought against the act, and Federal courts have ruled that a number of provisions are unconstitutional.

[Angel1]

I live in a country where citizens who make minimum wage and are living in poverty are being taxed so that the government can fight wars under false pretenses.
I'd like you to specify which wars are being/were fought under false pretenses. If you refer to Iraq, then I point out that WMDs were not the only reason to fight that war. If you refer to Iraq, I also point out that fighting a war on terror without taking out the single most destabilizing force in the Middle East would have been seen as a joke. Defending our country is not a joke. Yes, the Iraq war defended the United States by defending our prestige; simply put, Saddam Hussein had defied us and the rest of the western world one too many times. In the world of diplomacy, prestige is a hard asset and we could not afford to allow Hussein to continue to damage our prestige.

I don't seriously believe you are refering to the Afghanistan war, but since you said "wars" it may be possible that you are. To that end, I simply say that the Taliban and Al Quaida are so close to one another that the only real difference is that the Taliban seek to be a government over a small part of Al Quaida's perceived domain.
I live in a country that ran concentration camps of its own during ww2.
To seriously call the Japanese Internment Camps "concentration camps" insults every single person who ever spent any time in a real concentration camp and you ought to be ashamed of yourself for making that comparison. Were the Japanese Internment Camps wrong? Without a doubt, yes! Were they a crime against the US Constitution? Again, there is no doubt that they were absolutely a crime against the US Constitution. Were they a crime against humanity? Absolutely NOT! The condition of the Japanese Internment Camps were significantly better than contemporary "concentration camps".

Now, the other thing you might be calling "concentration camps" were the Prisoner of War camps in the US. Frankly the biggest threat within the Prisoner of War camps was failing to segregate Nazis from non-Nazis. The prisoners themselves were the biggest threats to one another.

All this calling them the came thing and making them equally weighted stuff needs to stop; it falisfies history and creates liars out of otherwise good people. Let's all step back and have ourselves a reality check. Yes, the US had internment camps for Japanese (and Japanese Americans), Germans (and German Americans), and Italians (and Italian Americans). No, these internment camps are not comparable to the concentration camps of the same period. The truth of the matter is that history is usually neither as innocent as some people would like to see, nor as horrid as others would see.



Note: I am not countering the other points, because I believe that the fault is not so much in the points themselves, but rather in the conclusion that you draw from them. While I could fight the conclusion, I just don't want to right now.



More to the topic: America is constantly driven to reach ideals which, though we may not all agree on exactly what those ideals are, are generally good. That is perhaps the greatest reason for patriotism. Pratriotism in ones own country does not preclude accepting the pratriotism others feel for their country nor does it preclude feeling a greater unity among all humanity. It's kind of like the US states. People tend to feel pride for the state that they call their "home state". It doesn't mean that their loyalty and pride is exclusive to that state; that would be an overly simplistic attitude. I was born in and spent almost half my life to this point in Ohio; the other half of my life has been spent living in Tennessee. These days, whenever I go to see family in Ohio I am going home and whenever I leave there to return to Tennessee, I am going home. Ohio and Tennessee are both home to me; I love both states. I am an Ohio State fan, but a Tennessee Titan fan too. I believe that it's perfectly legitimate for the US to pay farmers to plant restorative crops on some acres of land, but wish that we would find a plant whose plant matter would restore the soil and crop could be used to feed the hungry people of Africa. I believe that the US has very good reasons for a large navy, but wish we would use the ships to deliver charity to needy nations and peoples. Surely we can find some space on aircraft carriers to store some clothing for needy people along the carriers route. The US Coast Guard already performs this function in the Carribean. Let's use our resources to greatest possible affect. Serve a mission of deterrance and a mission of mercy at the same time.

Here's a real shocker: I believe that one day we will have to have a united government for the entire world. However, we need to achieve a united world government only under terms that would be relatively close to the US constitution. Heck, if I were president I would actively seek a move in the direction of one world government. If I were president I would seek to unify the US and Canadian Dollars into one currency. I would actively try to build greater unity among the English Speaking peoples of the world, so that we could move in a multi-national direction. I think that greater unity within continental Europe could be a very good thing. Let's not push this idea further than we can do so without causing different problems, but let's start pushing in the direction of one world government.

[hubcap]

The United States has:

Alleviated the suffering of more people
Improved the standard of living of more people
Ensured the freedom of more people
Provided opportunity for more people
Sacrificed more on the behalf of other nations and peoples

than any other nation in the history of the world.

In order to ensure that future generations would enjoy the liberty that the United States was founded to protect, great sacrifices have been made. I recognize those sacrifices and recognize that more sacrifices will be necessary in the future if we are to continue to enjoy liberty. As long as our nation produces young men like Cooper...........we will continue to enjoy what many have came to take for granted. Without men like that we will no longer exist as the America that we currently enjoy.

Yes, I'm proud to be an American, and yes I am patriotic.

[Deliberator]

Are you patriotic? If so why? To me,it makes little sense in feeling pride in something that was due to fortune and involves no personal achievement.

You don't feel proud of yourself, you feel proud of your country and it's accomplishments. Feeling proud: i.e. not being ashamed of the attributes of your country.

I'm not terribly patriotic, mainly because I am so critical of government, but I often think how damn lucky I am to have been born in the USA versus Mexico or Somalia or any number of other countries.

[Anhedonic Lake]

I notice that most people are focusing on the merits of their respective country. I'm not asking whether ones nation is superior or inferior rather if whether the concept of patriotism,and national shame, a moot and illogical one.

[Wien1938]

Yes Malotis, but you are still practising moral equivalence which is a quite disreputable technique in any debate.
The internment camps were recognised as a mistake (look at Earl Warren) but these were NOT the same as any practised by the fascist powers or by the Soviet Unions. These were emphatically a mistake undertaken by a government affected with panic from Pearl Harbor. I am not denying that there were racist attitudes or mistreatment involved but this was not a policy designed around the extermination of a group.

You can look rationally at the Iraq War or you behave like a teenager and believe in conspiracy theories. I for one do believe that the Iraq war made the world safer, not least because the West was repeatedly attacked before 2003 by Islamists and because the US and the Iraqis inflicted a signal defeat upon the Al-Qaeda / Islamist political ideal in Iraq by defeating AQI.
Iraq has just held parliamentary elections for the third time. Is that not something to be proud of? That came about through American resolve to do the right thing.
As for the "weapons sold to Iraq" issue, take a look at this chart (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).
The USA sold 0.46% of the arms bought by Iraq. The top three suppliers were:
1. USSA 57.26%
2. France 12.74%
3. PRC 11.82%

Get your facts right before launching into assaults on other people's positions.

[PeacefulCynic]

Not really. Nope.

[gecko]

For those who are patriotic - if you were to live in a country like ...I don't know..X(X is unstable, poor, corrupt, and dangerous). Somehow, you are unfazed and not corrupted by your ugly surroundings. You wouldn't be patriotic, right? Because you do not agree with what they have done. So you are anti-X. Does that mean you are anti-Xican(citizen of X)? What is the difference?

So you are proud to be American. You are pro-American. What's the difference?

My point is, there is a judgment being made - X is a bad country with bad people(and negative 'accomplishments'), America is a good country with good people.

It is easy to assume that X has more bad people(per capita) than America. Is this true?

What is the difference between someone who is predetermined to become a criminal due to extenuating circumstances, and a colony that is predetermined to become the United States due to unlikely circumstances? One is a person, and one is a 'nation', or collection of people.

[Double Victory]

For those who are patriotic - if you were to live in a country like ...I don't know..X(X is unstable, poor, corrupt, and dangerous). Somehow, you are unfazed and not corrupted by your ugly surroundings. You wouldn't be patriotic, right? Because you do not agree with what they have done. So you are anti-X. Does that mean you are anti-Xican(citizen of X)? What is the difference?

So you are proud to be American. You are pro-American. What's the difference?

My point is, there is a judgment being made - X is a bad country with bad people(and negative 'accomplishments'), America is a good country with good people.

Very, very different. The citizens of a country are not responsible for their country's actions. They may be obligated to make sure their government is running correctly, but it reality it doesn't really work that way. I despise the Chinese government. I have absolutely nothing against Chinese people. I am annoyed by the governments of Afghanistan and Pakistan, but you can't expect their people to fight to change it. That's why the military in America is voluntary. Some people feel like it is their duty to fight; others don't want to. A country (essentially the country's government) is very different from the people of that country.


It is easy to assume that X has more bad people(per capita) than America. Is this true?

Being born somewhere doesn't automatically give you +15 evil. There are good and bad people everywhere. I don't think it's easy at all to assume another country has more "bad people" than America, and I think you really need to further your education if that's what you believe.


What is the difference between someone who is predetermined to become a criminal due to extenuating circumstances, and a colony that is predetermined to become the United States due to unlikely circumstances? One is a person, and one is a 'nation', or collection of people.

I don't understand how these two compare.

[gecko]

It's clear you completely missed my point. My post was directed at patriotic people. Let me show you...

Very, very different. The citizens of a country are not responsible for their country's actions. They may be obligated to make sure their government is running correctly, but it reality it doesn't really work that way. I despise the Chinese government. I have absolutely nothing against Chinese people. I am annoyed by the governments of Afghanistan and Pakistan, but you can't expect their people to fight to change it. That's why the military in America is voluntary. Some people feel like it is their duty to fight; others don't want to. A country (essentially the country's government) is very different from the people of that country.

So why then, is one patriotic? I was under the misguided(?) belief that a government, and its citizens are supposed to be mutually supporting. If there is no correlation between a government and its citizens(which just seems plain ludicrous if you believe in patriotism, not to mention citizens' responsibilities to overthrow a government that does not serve its citizens as stated in the Constitution of the US), then there is no reason to be patriotic - you cannot be proud of something you have had no part in building nor maintaining.

[hubcap]

For those who are patriotic - if you were to live in a country like ...I don't know..X(X is unstable, poor, corrupt, and dangerous). Somehow, you are unfazed and not corrupted by your ugly surroundings. You wouldn't be patriotic, right? Because you do not agree with what they have done. So you are anti-X. Does that mean you are anti-Xican(citizen of X)? What is the difference?

So you are proud to be American. You are pro-American. What's the difference?
If I had been born and raised in a country like Somalia I would not have a sense of national identity. I would only have a sense of loyalty to my tribal unit or clan. Many people around the world are in just this situation, whether born in Somalia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, or South Africa. These people more readily identify with either a religious or tribal group rather than having a sense of national patriotism.

On the other hand if I had been born in Switzerland for instance, I would likely have a sense of national identity and national pride to some degree more or less. If I had been born in nazi Germany I would probably have had a great deal of national pride as that was one of the key issues that Hitler used to unite the German people.

If I had been born in North Korea would I be patriotic? I can't say. I suspect that the citizens of North Korea are patriotic or loyal to their country and countrymen whether they are happy with their government or not..............just as people in the United States.

[Warrior]

I also refer to the war on drugs, where the U.S. spends billions (again, stolen legally from those making minimum wage and already living in poverty) to fly planes over Columbia, arrest cancer patients with swat teams, and incarcerate millions of non-violent drug offenders amongst countless other atrocities.


Seriously?? How has the US stolen from those making minimum wage? Nothing you mentioned here comes anywhere close to the level of an atrocity. Enforcing the law is quite a bit different than genocide.

---------- Post added 03-09-2010 at 05:20 PM ----------

Very, very different. The citizens of a country are not responsible for their country's actions. They may be obligated to make sure their government is running correctly, but it reality it doesn't really work that way.


I will not speak for other countries, but citizens of the US are most certainly responsible for the actions of the US. Although we often talk about "the government" as a seperate entity, there really is no seperation between the people and the government. When government misbehaves, it is every citizen's fault.

[Elfrun]

For those who are patriotic - if you were to live in a country like ...I don't know..X(X is unstable, poor, corrupt, and dangerous). Somehow, you are unfazed and not corrupted by your ugly surroundings. You wouldn't be patriotic, right? Because you do not agree with what they have done. So you are anti-X. Does that mean you are anti-Xican(citizen of X)? What is the difference?

So you are proud to be American. You are pro-American. What's the difference?

My point is, there is a judgment being made - X is a bad country with bad people(and negative 'accomplishments'), America is a good country with good people.

It is easy to assume that X has more bad people(per capita) than America. Is this true?

What is the difference between someone who is predetermined to become a criminal due to extenuating circumstances, and a colony that is predetermined to become the United States due to unlikely circumstances? One is a person, and one is a 'nation', or collection of people.

You've assumed too much. There is no judgement being made about good or bad on my behalf. You've basically exploded Fi all over the place with all the good/bad stuff.

If I was born in a country that was unstable, poor, corrupt and dangerous then my entire upbringing would be different but it is not right to assume I wouldn't be patriotic, however one of the reasons I'm grateful for where I live is because it is not those things, any of those elements can show up but I feel confident that they can be avoided by most people if they choose to and they do not come from our parliamentary system.

As for the America crap, no I'm not a fan, I'm pretty ambivalent to America really, but then I'm not American. I'm also not 'proud' of where I'm born, I had no say in that, I do feel blessed and lucky to be born where I was though.

It's not about good or bad, it's not about passing judgement on other countries or my own government where I either have to agree with them and consider them good or disagree and consider them bad. There are plenty of decisions my government makes that I don't approve of, what I do approve of is the way they are made and the democracy in place that ensures if one government makes poor decisions the citizens of my country can vote for someone else every 4 years, I will never have to fight for my right to vote and have a say, others have ensured I have that right.

I'm patriotic about the lifestyle that is available here for even those who do not have much money, a health care system that is available to everyone without having to flash a bank card for entry into a hospital, I'm patriotic about ensuring the freedom to disagree with the government and the right for other people to not be patriotic.

I would not fight because the Army tells me to and I've been brainwashed into believeing they always make the correct choices, or the government tells me to and they are always right, I would fight because I believe the rights that the citizens here have are worth fighting for, even being in the Army I'm free to, and do, disagree with any military action my country gets involved with.

I look at other countries that do not allow the freedoms I have and I don't consider them bad, I simply feel grateful for where I was born.

[Kisai]

Why would being patriot have an effect on how/if you like people whatever country they come from?

A patriot is one who loves and defends his or her country, if has nothing to do with other people or other countries for me.

If there was a war between two countries, and I lived in one, I still would not take sides. The patriot would default.

[gecko]

The prevailing veil I am trying to tear down is that of patriotism in relation to pride and perceived value of one's country via their accomplishments. It is not your country, it is the people you are proud of. A country is just land, territory, government, nothing without its citizens. There is a huge degree of diversity in America, so it is not logical to say that you are proud of the people as a whole(which = your country), it begs the question:which people? Only the good ones?

So my assertion are*:

1. You cannot be proud of a country without being proud of its citizens, because countries are nothing without its citizens
2. If you are proud of its citizens, then you are selectively choosing to look at a small percentage of them and are thus deluding yourself as to the relative quality of a certain country's citizens in relation to another
3. If you are proud of a "country's" accomplishments, you are actually proud of the people who were instrumental in these accomplishments, not the country as a whole; and you feel some irrational connection to this
4. If you call yourself patriotic in that you are proud of your nation(while discarding the concordant pride towards its collective citizens), then you believe your country is special in some form, as related to other countries. Now, why is it special? Was it related to the Constitution? There again, you are proud of the people who created the document, as well as the effect this document had on the American society and the world. So, this is similar to saying Americans > X, while in reality it is a product of great fortune or a miraculous chance as far as we can observe.

*Some clarifying thoughts on Patriotism, so we don't butt heads over different definitions...

If you have patriotism towards your country, you either

a. simply revel in its beauty
b. believe that its accomplishments make it special and are proud because you believe you have 'the same stuff' in you, and that its citizens are also of the same mold
c. are loyal to your family(and friends) and thankful/loyal for your country, which you perceive as being the(or a significant) distributor of your security and fortune

The former assertions being related to point B. as i saw much talk of accomplishments of the United States, and being proud of them - which I don't see as valid without feeling responsible or connected in some way to them.

[Double Victory]

It's clear you completely missed my point. My post was directed at patriotic people. Let me show you...



So why then, is one patriotic? I was under the misguided(?) belief that a government, and its citizens are supposed to be mutually supporting. If there is no correlation between a government and its citizens(which just seems plain ludicrous if you believe in patriotism, not to mention citizens' responsibilities to overthrow a government that does not serve its citizens as stated in the Constitution of the US), then there is no reason to be patriotic - you cannot be proud of something you have had no part in building nor maintaining.


Sure, a government and its people are supposed to work together, but that's not how it always works in the real world. I am patriotic, and I am actively involved in shaping my country. But I don't expect anyone else to be patriotic, in any country. People have the right to feel however they want about their government, even if that feeling is apathy.

You suggested that it's easy to assume people in other countries are "bad" because their government is "bad." If you were trying to make a point it failed because it makes no sense. Being patriotic doesn't mean you only like your country; it means you're proud of your country. It has nothing to do with how you feel about other countries.




Warrior--I agree that everyone in America should be actively involved in shaping the country, and I would agree that I blame the people for our faults. But I still think people have the right to choose whether or not they want to be involved, or if they want to be apathetic. Because I know this country it is the only place I could blame the faults of the government on the people, but I still would not blame the individuals themselves for their choices. Does that make sense? I'm not sure I can explain it much better than that.

EDIT:

The prevailing veil I am trying to tear down is that of patriotism in relation to pride and perceived value of one's country via their accomplishments. It is not your country, it is the people you are proud of. A country is just land, territory, government, nothing without its citizens. There is a huge degree of diversity in America, so it is not logical to say that you are proud of the people as a whole(which = your country), it begs the question:which people? Only the good ones?

So my assertion are*:

1. You cannot be proud of a country without being proud of its citizens, because countries are nothing without its citizens
2. If you are proud of its citizens, then you are selectively choosing to look at a small percentage of them and are thus deluding yourself as to the relative quality of a certain country's citizens in relation to another
3. If you are proud of a "country's" accomplishments, you are actually proud of the people who were instrumental in these accomplishments, not the country as a whole; and you feel some irrational connection to this
4. If you call yourself patriotic in that you are proud of your nation(while discarding the concordant pride towards its collective citizens), then you believe your country is special in some form, as related to other countries. Now, why is it special? Was it related to the Constitution? There again, you are proud of the people who created the document, as well as the effect this document had on the American society and the world. So, this is similar to saying Americans > X, while in reality it is a product of great fortune or a miraculous chance as far as we can observe.

*Some clarifying thoughts on Patriotism, so we don't butt heads over different definitions...

If you have patriotism towards your country, you either

a. simply revel in its beauty
b. believe that its accomplishments make it special and are proud because you believe you have 'the same stuff' in you, and that its citizens are also of the same mold
c. are loyal to your family(and friends) and thankful/loyal for your country, which you perceive as being the(or a significant) distributor of your security and fortune

The former assertions being related to point B. as i saw much talk of accomplishments of the United States, and being proud of them - which I don't see as valid without feeling responsible or connected in some way to them.

This I understand. And no, you don't have to be proud of your people (though I suppose you could be if that's what made you feel pride about your country). If you've read most of the posts from Americans on here about why they're patriotic, it's the ideals on which our country was founded, or the ideals on which our country currently acts in relation to helping other countries, etc. None of it has to have something to do with people.

People may create something, but you can still love that thing they created, or you can love WHY it was created, or you can love those people. You don't have to love any of them specifically. I do love America's founding fathers, but it is the ideals of America for which I am proud. And while I am personally actively involved in promoting these ideals, I wouldn't have to be to be proud of them. And in any case, just being born in America provides that connection because you are American.

[Ray9]

1966: Ninteen years old, 125 pounds, agent orange, incoming artillary fire, enemy includes women and children. WTF? Then Germany, military police. Still 125 pounds, mostly guard duty. Lots of tanks and trains. Not very well liked by local population. WTF? Came home grew hair, played in rock band, got laid. Learned what it's like somewhere else, Would defend this soil. Guess I'm a patriot.

[Dodeca]

I would not fight because the Army tells me to and I've been brainwashed into believeing they always make the correct choices, or the government tells me to and they are always right, I would fight because I believe the rights that the citizens here have are worth fighting for, even being in the Army I'm free to, and do, disagree with any military action my country gets involved with.

To that government must I not take allegiance but for those that would stand against the deceptions fostered on all mankind. That for a better future one must know the enemy who would have you die for ideals that benefit the unjust and cruel deceivers.

-Dodeca

" Political language. . . is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind. "

-George Orwell

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-Thomas Jefferson

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.

-Thomas Jefferson

[gecko]

You suggested that it's easy to assume people in other countries are "bad" because their government is "bad." If you were trying to make a point it failed because it makes no sense. Being patriotic doesn't mean you only like your country; it means you're proud of your country. It has nothing to do with how you feel about other countries.

What is 'your country'?

This I understand. And no, you don't have to be proud of your people (though I suppose you could be if that's what made you feel pride about your country). If you've read most of the posts from Americans on here about why they're patriotic, it's the ideals on which our country was founded, or the ideals on which our country currently acts in relation to helping other countries, etc. None of it has to have something to do with people.

All of it has to do with people. The ideals set forth in the Constitution were created by people, for people. I don't understand how you can separate the two concepts(people and governmental precepts) without admitting that one was created by and NEEDS sentient beings to even have any validity. And there again, the ideals on which our country was founded and the ideals on which our country acts are different from our country - so you aren't loving a country, you are loving its adherence to a set of ideals. And a nation's adherence to ideals must be fueled by its citizens, if it is not then you are just happy you and your country stumbled clumsily and unwillingly upon the jackpot. In addition to selectively choosing which parts of "your country" to be proud of.

People may create something, but you can still love that thing they created, or you can love WHY it was created, or you can love those people. You don't have to love any of them specifically. I do love America's founding fathers, but it is the ideals of America for which I am proud. And while I am personally actively involved in promoting these ideals, I wouldn't have to be to be proud of them. And in any case, just being born in America provides that connection because you are American.

There was once a dream that was Rome. You could only whisper it...

I understand. But countries do not have ideals, people do.


Sure, a government and its people are supposed to work together, but that's not how it always works in the real world. I am patriotic, and I am actively involved in shaping my country. But I don't expect anyone else to be patriotic, in any country. People have the right to feel however they want about their government, even if that feeling is apathy.

Shaping your country, shaping the people within, what's the difference? If a citizen receives a benefit via some new legislation, then they are the same. Why is there an aversion to accepting that a country is a man-made concept...it doesn't actually exist without the people it exists to categorize...

You suggested that it's easy to assume people in other countries are "bad" because their government is "bad." If you were trying to make a point it failed because it makes no sense. Being patriotic doesn't mean you only like your country; it means you're proud of your country. It has nothing to do with how you feel about other countries.

I posed questions for patriotic people to think about. And still, no one has answered any of them; you are criticizing your pre-fab interpretation without actually giving my original propositions+questions any legitimate thought. I'll ask again: what's the difference between being pro-American and proud to be an American?

[Slacker]

I share the sentiment. This seems to be something that sets Americans apart in the world. I never hear this from folks from other countries. I'm curious to know if this thought is widely shared around the world by people from places other than the US.

Nope, there's both little inclination and little demand for life sacrifices for the good of ones country in the civilized world. However, elsewhere there is a much greater willingness to pay taxes, to fund things which are actually necessary, such as food, shelter and access to medical care.

The legend of the heroic sacrifice of ones life for ones country and countrymen is a recurring theme among patriots. I find it hard to swallow. I suspect that most of the heroes who actually "sacrificed" their lives were really just poor bastards, caught in the wrong place without a choice or a way out; who were shitting themselves and wishing they were elsewhere while they were being butchered.

[Yhor]

The legend of the heroic sacrifice of ones life for ones country and countrymen is a recurring theme among patriots. I find it hard to swallow. I suspect that most of the heroes who actually "sacrificed" their lives were really just poor bastards, caught in the wrong place without a choice or a way out; who were shitting themselves and wishing they were elsewhere while they were being butchered.

I might actually buy that, if I had not served myself, or if serving was not voluntary. Do patriots who go to war probably wish they were somewhere else? I'd say more than likely, but if the way of life in that somewhere else wasn't inclusive of liberty and our way of life... I'd rather die fighting to preserve it than to allow it to be denied; I suspect many other patriots feel the same.

It is also my belief that one can love his or her country, and still speak out against and hate aspects of it's (country) government. Blind faith isn't necessary to be a patriot.

[Cooper]

There are no former Marines, once a Marine, always a Marine.

That statement is a statement of pride and patroitism. It means that I will fight to the death for your right to call me names, spit in my face, and burn the American flag.

I do not like to be called names anymore then the next guy. I do not want someone to spit on me any more the you do. I do not like it when someone burns the American flag. I do not like it that there are Neo-Nazis and skinheads, but they are protected by free speech. When I swore an Oath to uphold the Constitution, it was not selective. It did not and does not mean I will give my life for you, but not the guy on the corner asking for money, or the woman who is addicted to drugs. Giving my life for this counrty means every man, woman, amd child in it, good, bad, or indifferent. Citizen or non-citizen. I am a United States Marine and I swore to protect this counrty and its people.

[Lucid]

All countries have things to be proud of and things to be ashamed of. No country really has more of one or the other than other countries.

Do you think there are patriotic Germans despite the Nazi party? Of course there are. And they have every reason to be so. At least, as much reason as any of the rest of us.

Patriotism, as others have said, is a blind and illogical response.

Of course citizens of other countries would die for their fellow citizens whether they liked them or not. Of course citizens of other countries would not expect to be bribed for work contracts. These things are not unique to citizens of the US and I'm a little surprised that there are people who actually think that they are.

Other countries have as much to be proud of in their own histories, their own laws and cultures and rights, as the US does.

That said, am I patriotic? Absolutely.
This is my home and my society. I like lots of things about our culture, our history, our laws and constitution and a lot of what we do and have done for the rest of the world.
There are also lots of things I hate about all the above and that I would change if given the opportunity.
As someone else mentioned, my country is merely a structure into which I was born, not much better or worse than other structures. It is, however, the house I was born in and have always lived in. And for irrational reasons I therefore love it.

However, the result of that love is that I want to fix what's wrong with it and I want to improve it and its society. And I would defend it against hostile tribes. Probably to the death.

There's nothing wrong with patriotism except when people try to find ways to justify it. Then you get weird ideas like Americans won't accept bribes for contracts. Next thing you get a bunch of guys dressed all the same in shiny black boots and smart looking uniforms with insignias all over them goose stepping about the place and wanting to exercise their patriotism by doing horrible things to people they deem to be of inferior national character.

Also, in the years since 9/11 the word has come to have connotations of blind obedience and conformity and ignorance of the rest of the world. That's too bad.

[Cygnus]

I'm not a patriot, because I won't do the wrong thing for the good of the nation.

[aoife]

I thought in an INTJ forum where people generally use rational thought more than emotion the Americans would have a less common outlook on patriotism. Obviously not.
Some do of course. Not to include every American in this but Americans tend to go totally overboard and get overly emotional and completely caught up in the idea of patriotism.

Americans often make claims that put America ahead of every other country in the world, as proved here. Even when some of you admit there's flaws you still see America as the best country in the world. You point to all the 'good' America had done. That's fine, what about all the bad? If I were American I would find it very difficult to be proud of it as a country. Starting with the very foundations of the country and up to the current day, a lot of terrible, terrible things have been done in the name of America, and especially in the name of 'freedom' and 'democracy' words Americans love to throw around.

Obviously it happens else where but I've never come across a group of people that are so passionate, beyond reason and caught up in propaganda, and the absolute anger and indignation that it brings out when this patriotism is challenged.

I think patriotism is a terrible thing. It stops people thinking critically as many of you have provided great examples of. It allows governments to get away with all sorts of evil.
This isn't to say you can't love the country you're from and be proud of its achievements.

[ya lyublyu tebya]

I dislike many Americans, but I'll fight for their right, to the death, to be able to do the things they do that bring about my discontent.

Voltaire would have liked you. :)

[Tristan]

Also, in the years since 9/11 the word has come to have connotations of blind obedience and conformity and ignorance of the rest of the world. That's too bad.


This is a very important point. Patriotism also got a bad rap when it was called nationalism and "infested" all the major participants in the world wars. Post-9/11 patriotism in America, and the Patriot Act, has cast a shadow over the concept. In such times we need to step back from our anti-patriotic fervor and consider why patriotism exists. Over time patriotism has replaced loyalty, like towards monarchs, and religious faith. It's unlikely that if patriotism disappeared, we would not seize upon something new or regress to one of the older two. They all represent dedication to a cause greater than the individual, an important component of the average person's sanity. Patriotism is the linchpin of the collectivist society, as well; the common thread among successful socialist economies is the high esteem their people have for their system. This is every bit as much a cause, as an effect, of success.

[Ray9]

I thought in an INTJ forum where people generally use rational thought more than emotion the Americans would have a less common outlook on patriotism. Obviously not.
Some do of course. Not to include every American in this but Americans tend to go totally overboard and get overly emotional and completely caught up in the idea of patriotism.


Bein' that we ain't like the French we git all into a lather over nashnal loialty. You see, it's on account of we seen how the French salute their enemies by raisin' thier hands in surrender and then collaberatin' with em till they see who wins. Ole general Patton said it best: "I'd rather have a German in front of me than a Frenchman behind me." It just ain't in our nature to bow down and run away. We like to whoop it up and celebrate the flag with firecrackers and sparklers. Don't worry, the next time you git yore ass in a jam we'll come save you from yourselfs.

[Warrior]

I thought in an INTJ forum where people generally use rational thought more than emotion the Americans would have a less common outlook on patriotism. Obviously not.
Some do of course. Not to include every American in this but Americans tend to go totally overboard and get overly emotional and completely caught up in the idea of patriotism.

Americans often make claims that put America ahead of every other country in the world, as proved here. Even when some of you admit there's flaws you still see America as the best country in the world. You point to all the 'good' America had done. That's fine, what about all the bad? If I were American I would find it very difficult to be proud of it as a country. Starting with the very foundations of the country and up to the current day, a lot of terrible, terrible things have been done in the name of America, and especially in the name of 'freedom' and 'democracy' words Americans love to throw around.

Obviously it happens else where but I've never come across a group of people that are so passionate, beyond reason and caught up in propaganda, and the absolute anger and indignation that it brings out when this patriotism is challenged.

I think patriotism is a terrible thing. It stops people thinking critically as many of you have provided great examples of. It allows governments to get away with all sorts of evil.
This isn't to say you can't love the country you're from and be proud of its achievements.

Less common how? Did you expect all of us to shown up and walk on the flag and tell everyone how we hate this place? How much more rational would that be?

I admit I get very emotional about the topic, but that doesn't mean I'm not rational about it. It isn't like those things are opposite ends of some spectrum. As many have said, there is room for improvement in the US, both because of the things that have been done and because of what has not been done. The good done does not justify the bad. However, what many of us are proud of is that we live in a place where the citizens not only have the power to change things, but the responsibility to do so as well. Many of us are passionate about defending that. It isn't very common in the world.

[Angel1]

I thought in an INTJ forum where people generally use rational thought more than emotion the Americans would have a less common outlook on patriotism. Obviously not.
Some do of course. Not to include every American in this but Americans tend to go totally overboard and get overly emotional and completely caught up in the idea of patriotism.

Americans often make claims that put America ahead of every other country in the world, as proved here. Even when some of you admit there's flaws you still see America as the best country in the world. You point to all the 'good' America had done. That's fine, what about all the bad? If I were American I would find it very difficult to be proud of it as a country. Starting with the very foundations of the country and up to the current day, a lot of terrible, terrible things have been done in the name of America, and especially in the name of 'freedom' and 'democracy' words Americans love to throw around.

Obviously it happens else where but I've never come across a group of people that are so passionate, beyond reason and caught up in propaganda, and the absolute anger and indignation that it brings out when this patriotism is challenged.

I think patriotism is a terrible thing. It stops people thinking critically as many of you have provided great examples of. It allows governments to get away with all sorts of evil.
This isn't to say you can't love the country you're from and be proud of its achievements.

If you cannot look through/past the faults of your own country, then how can you look through/past the faults of other nations and peoples? If you cannot look through/past the faults of others, then how can you truly expect to build a more peaceful future? How can you expect to build towards a common government for all the people of the world? Those who cannot forgive themselves and their countries for the wrongs that they have committed, cannot forgive others and other people's countries. To be one people, we must forgive all faults and erase all guilt. Patriotism despite all the faults is seeing through/past the faults of your own country.

Patriotism is not ignoring the wrongs that have been committed; it is accepting the wrongs alongside the good and loving your country despite the total score. Should the current German population not be patriotic despite the actions of Nazis Germany? Germans should absolutely feel patriotism for their country. They have come so far since WWII and since the two Germanies were reunited.

Just because I am not proud of all things that my country has done does not mean that I should not be patriotic. I am proud of how far my country has come and where I think we're headed in the long term. It is a false expectation that people will hate their country because of things that they themselves cannot change.

[shanex97]

If you look at "peaceful" countries they are that way because they lack the resources to wage any war that would be beneficial to them. 99% of the time if a country has anything substantial to gain from a war and they are able to conduct it with a high probability of success they will wage war. I find it hypocritical when people critize the u.s for their two ongoing wars,especially when it comes to afghanistan which was retaliatory.

[Silence]

What does that have to do with any specific country?





Being stationed overseas not only allowed me to gain a perspective of life in other countries that I would not have had otherwise, but it gave me a chance to act as a representative of the US. I wore my uniform with pride, because despite the ridiculous antics and behavior of the politicians, I was given the opportunity to demonstrate qualities that television did not display at the forefront.

[Lucid]

Being stationed overseas not only allowed me to gain a perspective of life in other countries that I would not have had otherwise, but it gave me a chance to act as a representative of the US. I wore my uniform with pride, because despite the ridiculous antics and behavior of the politicians, I was given the opportunity to demonstrate qualities that television did not display at the forefront.

That's a good point. Whenever I have traveled overseas, my companions and I ignored the advice we got to say that we were Canadian and introduced ourselves to anyone who was interested as Americans. And we tried to represent our country well by being our normal, polite, intelligent and respectful selves.

The US does have many things that its citizens can and should be ashamed of. It also has a number of things that we can and should be proud of. Our freedom of speech is superior, to the best of my knowledge, to that of most other countries. And despite what we hear, most citizens of the US are pretty well educated even in comparison to other industrialized nations.

However, there are other areas in which the US is surpassed by other countries. Our foreign policy is crap and our financial regulations are laughable and, actually, dangerous to the world economy. It bothers me that other nations see Americans as these rude, ignorant caricatures, just as I'm sure it bothers the citizens of these self same other nations to be seen as stereotypes themselves.

Therefore, citizens of the US have no more or less to be proud of or ashamed of than citizens of other countries. We all, Americans and citizens of other countries, love our countries because our countries are all we know.

[PunkinA]

I am no patriot. I like this country though. It protects many of my values against a violent world. My country is like a decent enough bus. It's going my way, but in no way would I consider it ideal or close to embodying all my values.

I get tired of people saying to me ,""If you don't like it why don't you leave?"

In the bus analogy, we haven't reached my stop.

[gecko]

The US does have many things that its citizens can and should be ashamed of. It also has a number of things that we can and should be proud of. Our freedom of speech is superior, to the best of my knowledge, to that of most other countries.

Why should we be proud of something we had no influence in?

A few people continue to implicate that being proud has nothing to do with themselves. If you are proud of something, it is because you at least identify it as being on par with your personal values. So you must see some part of yourselves in your country and your country alone. Otherwise, you would not be a patriot, simply proud of all the good and great humans and deeds out there in the world. In fact, you would probably want the world to be united already, disregarding the separating concept of nations. If you still call yourself a patriot - I point to your loyalty as indicative of nothing more than the willingness to defend your family and friends, who probably live in the same country as you. If you still call yourself a patriot based on the Constitution, I say plenty of countries have adopted these things, and you are fixating on the origin of the Constitution being in this country, while ignoring the origin of democracy(the Greeks), and other respective creators of ideas the US founders borrowed from, as well as the myriad of details that enabled the birth of the US.

Also, in the years since 9/11 the word has come to have connotations of blind obedience and conformity and ignorance of the rest of the world. That's too bad.


This is a very important point. Patriotism also got a bad rap when it was called nationalism and "infested" all the major participants in the world wars. Post-9/11 patriotism in America, and the Patriot Act, has cast a shadow over the concept. In such times we need to step back from our anti-patriotic fervor and consider why patriotism exists. Over time patriotism has replaced loyalty, like towards monarchs, and religious faith. It's unlikely that if patriotism disappeared, we would not seize upon something new or regress to one of the older two. They all represent dedication to a cause greater than the individual, an important component of the average person's sanity. Patriotism is the linchpin of the collectivist society, as well; the common thread among successful socialist economies is the high esteem their people have for their system. This is every bit as much a cause, as an effect, of success.

Simply having ideals and being loyal to them is adequate...

[Warrior]

Why should we be proud of something we had no influence in?

I do have influence and I'm glad I have the ability to influence the ideas that work and change the ones that don't.


A few people continue to implicate that being proud has nothing to do with themselves. If you are proud of something, it is because you at least identify it as being on par with your personal values. So you must see some part of yourselves in your country and your country alone.

I've traveled a bit in Europe and Asia and I find that the US is somewhat unique. There are similarities to other countries, but there are also substantial differences. So, yes, I feel patriotic toward my country alone.


Otherwise, you would not be a patriot, simply proud of all the good and great humans and deeds out there in the world. In fact, you would probably want the world to be united already, disregarding the separating concept of nations.

Terrible idea. This would just lead to mediocrity the world over.



If you still call yourself a patriot - I point to your loyalty as indicative of nothing more than the willingness to defend your family and friends, who probably live in the same country as you.

Not true, at least for some. As has beeen pointed out, there are those who would defend even those that we really can't stand.

If you still call yourself a patriot based on the Constitution, I say plenty of countries have adopted these things, and you are fixating on the origin of the Constitution being in this country, while ignoring the origin of democracy(the Greeks), and other respective creators of ideas the US founders borrowed from, as well as the myriad of details that enabled the birth of the US.

Many contries have a constitution, but not all of them are equal and not all democracies are equal. I would hate to live in Western Europe. Pirate ships were some of the most democratic institutions around, but I wouldn't want to live on one of those either.

[Wien1938]

Interesting point just occured to me. To what extent are people here reacting to the term "patriotic" as a political label?
There seems to me to be a certain defensiveness around those claiming their indifference to their country of birth. Is it the idea of patriotism that offends or is the fear of political associations?

[Mikk]

SUOMI! SUOMI!

[Dodeca]

Interesting point just occured to me. To what extent are people here reacting to the term "patriotic" as a political label?
There seems to me to be a certain defensiveness around those claiming their indifference to their country of birth. Is it the idea of patriotism that offends or is the fear of political associations?

Claiming 9/11 was an inside job is unpatriotic. *Dodeca is now assumed to be unpatriotic*

[QuietConfidence]

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."
"Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism -how passionately I hate them!"

"How I wish that somewhere there existed an island for those who are wise and of goodwill! In such a place even I would be an ardent patriot."

All 3 by Einstein. I agree with him.

[Lucid]

Why should we be proud of something we had no influence in?

Yeah, I've heard that argument before and I think it honestly stems from too literal a reading of the word "proud." Feel free to replace it with "happy about," "think is nifty," "prefer to others" or "like" as applicable.

To be proud to be some accident of birth is perhaps a colloquial expression which means that one is happy with some aspect of their race, heritage, nationality, socio-economic class, outwardly presenting genetic traits, whatever.

Language is really just a thin layer of useful indications pointing to shared experiences, agreed upon meanings and mutually understood ideas. Therefore, if a person says that they are "proud" of their country I think we can agree that nobody expects that they are trying to imply that they had some hand in the creation of their country. However, each individual does have a hand in the creation, shaping and continuation of a culture or civilization just as each snowflake has a hand in the creation, shaping and continuation of an avalanche.

In other words, you know what we mean. Stop being pedantic.

[hubcap]

Why should we be proud of something we had no influence in?
When I think of patriotism I don't think "Gee, I'm proud of the United States". Pride is simply vanity and I don't think I could honestly say that I am proud of the United States.

When I think of patriotism I think - I'm loyal to the United States and I have an obligation to ensure the ideals of the United States are perpetuated so that future generations can enjoy the same benefits I have enjoyed.

[Dodeca]

When I think of patriotism I don't think "Gee, I'm proud of the United States". Pride is simply vanity and I don't think I could honestly say that I am proud of the United States.

When I think of patriotism I think - I'm loyal to the United States and I have an obligation to ensure the ideals of the United States are perpetuated so that future generations can enjoy the same benefits I have enjoyed.

If thats how you define patriotism then I'm all for it. Sad thing is most non-Americans see us as a bully. Mostly its true in the context of government and people indifferent to the governments wrong doings.

[Silence]

Why should we be proud of something we had no influence in?

A few people continue to implicate that being proud has nothing to do with themselves. If you are proud of something, it is because you at least identify it as being on par with your personal values. So you must see some part of yourselves in your country and your country alone. Otherwise, you would not be a patriot, simply proud of all the good and great humans and deeds out there in the world. In fact, you would probably want the world to be united already, disregarding the separating concept of nations. If you still call yourself a patriot - I point to your loyalty as indicative of nothing more than the willingness to defend your family and friends, who probably live in the same country as you. If you still call yourself a patriot based on the Constitution, I say plenty of countries have adopted these things, and you are fixating on the origin of the Constitution being in this country, while ignoring the origin of democracy(the Greeks), and other respective creators of ideas the US founders borrowed from, as well as the myriad of details that enabled the birth of the US.



Simply having ideals and being loyal to them is adequate...

How do you suppose that I had no influence in my country? I have volunteered in my community. I have given time, money and aid to other countries. I have helped organize parades, helped repair buildings damaged by storm, helped to feed the hungry, served as a role model, committed no crimes and have been present and major historical occurrences. By participating in communities both of my own country and others, I most certainly have helped to shape history. So has anyone else that has participated in bettering the lives of others. My country is not frozen in time. Nobody's country is. How dynamic the growth rate depends on many factors, but to be proud of ones country is to be proud of the people, of the land, of the history and of the future.

[freeeekyyy]

I'm patriotic, I love my country. Though there are other things I love more than my country, like my God.

[gecko]

Yeah, I've heard that argument before and I think it honestly stems from too literal a reading of the word "proud." Feel free to replace it with "happy about," "think is nifty," "prefer to others" or "like" as applicable.

To be proud to be some accident of birth is perhaps a colloquial expression which means that one is happy with some aspect of their race, heritage, nationality, socio-economic class, outwardly presenting genetic traits, whatever.

Language is really just a thin layer of useful indications pointing to shared experiences, agreed upon meanings and mutually understood ideas. Therefore, if a person says that they are "proud" of their country I think we can agree that nobody expects that they are trying to imply that they had some hand in the creation of their country. However, each individual does have a hand in the creation, shaping and continuation of a culture or civilization just as each snowflake has a hand in the creation, shaping and continuation of an avalanche.

In other words, you know what we mean. Stop being pedantic.

Do I? Some have posted about being 'proud' of achievements of this country, so I suppose that means happy to you. I don't see the point of being proud OR happy of any of one country's achievements, as patriotism suggests. When I think of America's success, it is a human triumph. That is enough; why have "a soft spot" for our country unless we think somehow it is inherently greater than others? If you admire a certain aspect of our government, you can say so. Why is there a need to involve the whole country as being something you respect and admire? It is not a person. It is not an ideal(although some believe it is). It still needs work. There is no need to 'look past' the unfavorable qualities of this country to 'accept it and love it'...does this not sound like insanity? Patriotism is not ignoring the wrongs that have been committed; it is accepting the wrongs alongside the good and loving your country despite the total score. WHAT?! Why does our country need our love? It is a patch of land inhabited by people! It is imperfect and ugly, just like humanity. It is also beautiful, yes, but beauty and ugliness can be found in most things and people if you look hard enough. Why the irrational fixation on this country? You call me pedantic, and yet this is one thing we should be analytical about approaching because there is a large/confusing range of definitions and perceptions regarding it.

There is no need to be patriotic to help your country or (your) people, which is something that many seem to be implying.

I know what you are referring to in one respect(this happiness, preference, etc.), but I do not see it as having anything to do with my country, or anything else. I see beauty in things as they exist - and it has little to do with specific details rather than a universal beauty in either victory, aesthetic patterns, idealism, hope, among other things. This says nothing about the realistic characteristics of any of the objects, events, or thoughts that represent this beauty, which evokes happiness mixed with inspiration.

---------- Post added 03-12-2010 at 12:24 PM ----------

When I think of patriotism I think - I'm loyal to the United States and I have an obligation to ensure the ideals of the United States are perpetuated so that future generations can enjoy the same benefits I have enjoyed.


Does 'all men are created equal' only apply to Americans?

---------- Post added 03-12-2010 at 12:26 PM ----------

Terrible idea. This would just lead to mediocrity the world over.

Would you mind elaborating?

[hubcap]

Does 'all men are created equal' only apply to Americans?
Do you understand what the term actually means within the context of the Declaration of Independence?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
The answer is no, it doesn't only apply to Americans, but unfortunately most governments aren't founded on the same principle as the government of the United States. The government was instituted for the purpose of securing the rights of individuals.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness
Citizens of many other nations do not have governments that were instituted to secure their rights, which results in most cases to inequality among men.

[Lucid]

Do I?

Well, I guess it's possible that you have trouble with context and meaning and therefore find communicating with other humans to be difficult. I just assumed you had the standard level of understanding that most humans do.

Some have posted about being 'proud' of achievements of this country, so I suppose that means happy to you. I don't see the point of being proud OR happy of any of one country's achievements, as patriotism suggests. When I think of America's success, it is a human triumph. That is enough; why have "a soft spot" for our country unless we think somehow it is inherently greater than others? If you admire a certain aspect of our government, you can say so. Why is there a need to involve the whole country as being something you respect and admire? It is not a person. It is not an ideal(although some believe it is). It still needs work. There is no need to 'look past' the unfavorable qualities of this country to 'accept it and love it'...does this not sound like insanity? WHAT?! Why does our country need our love? It is a patch of land inhabited by people! It is imperfect and ugly, just like humanity. It is also beautiful, yes, but beauty and ugliness can be found in most things and people if you look hard enough. Why the irrational fixation on this country? You call me pedantic, and yet this is one thing we should be analytical about approaching because there is a large/confusing range of definitions and perceptions regarding it.

You don't appear to be actually reading my posts (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). Please try again.

[ElstonGunn]

It is a false expectation that people will hate their country because of things that they themselves cannot change.

Then I have to ask why it's reasonable for people to be patriotic about their country because of things that they can't change? If it's legitimate to pass the buck on the Japanese Internment or the massacre at Wounded Knee or the Iran-Contra Scandal because you can't do anything about those things, why is it okay to accept a feeling of patriotism for the Moon landing or the First Amendment or the Marshall Plan? What am I missing in the reasoning?

[aoife]

In response to Angel and Warrior I was by no means suggesting you should hate your country. I was only pointing out that people get quite emotional about the subject and I don't think that's the most practical thing coming from an INTJ point of view. Of course Americans have a lot to be proud of, I just find it strange that American's often feel the need to put every other country behind their own when expressing this pride, something that I haven't noticed other nationalities doing.

[Lucid]

In response to Angel and Warrior I was by no means suggesting you should hate your country. I was only pointing out that people get quite emotional about the subject and I don't think that's the most practical thing coming from an INTJ point of view. Of course Americans have a lot to be proud of, I just find it strange that American's often feel the need to put every other country behind their own when expressing this pride, something that I haven't noticed other nationalities doing.

No other nationalities think that their own country is the best and their favorite? Really? I have noticed just the opposite myself.

[gecko]

Well, I guess it's possible that you have trouble with context and meaning and therefore find communicating with other humans to be difficult. I just assumed you had the standard level of understanding that most humans do.

Amusing. So are you contesting my point that the word patriotism has many meanings for different people? If so, it would be nice if you could say so instead of splurging your rhetoric about.

You don't appear to be actually reading my posts (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). Please try again.

You appear to be discounting the possibility that we disagree. As it is - I was not only addressing you in that post, I thought it was clear as I used the word "Some". In addition, you took the liberty of defining others' use of the word 'proud'. I sought to clarify.

Twisted patriotism is just as dangerous as twisted religion. Yet you seem to be of the mind that we just be optimistic about it all, and create nice warm definitions for other people's misuse of the English language when defining their 'patriotism'.

[HAL 9000]

I'm patriotic, I love my country. Though there are other things I love more than my country, like my God.

Amen.

I love America because I agree, to a large extent, with the ideals of her founders. That said, I view this place as a temporary home.

[Lucid]

Amusing. So are you contesting my point that the word patriotism has many meanings for different people? If so, it would be nice if you could say so instead of splurging your rhetoric about.

Was that your point? It seemed that you took issue with the use of the word "proud." That's what I was contesting, and really only by saying that it is a word with many meanings for different people.

You appear to be discounting the possibility that we disagree.

Actually, no. Instead, it is my opinion that you have no idea what I'm saying and are responding to points I am not making. I have no idea whether we agree or not, since you don't seem to be grasping my meaning.

As it is - I was not only addressing you in that post, I thought it was clear as I used the word "Some".

It was not. It would have been nice of you to say so, instead of "splurging you rhetoric about," as you say.

Incidentally, your use of the word splurge in this context is strange. I won't go so far as to say that it's actually wrong... since with some elasticity in definition it could be made to work. But it's unusual to use the word in this way. Are you a native speaker of English?

In addition, you took the liberty of defining others' use of the word 'proud'. I sought to clarify.

Please see above.

Twisted patriotism is just as dangerous as twisted religion. Yet you seem to be of the mind that we just be optimistic about it all

Actually no. That's not my point at all and never was. I take it you still didn't read the post I linked you to. I say in that post, explicitly:

There's nothing wrong with patriotism except when people try to find ways to justify it. Then you get weird ideas like Americans won't accept bribes for contracts. Next thing you get a bunch of guys dressed all the same in shiny black boots and smart looking uniforms with insignias all over them goose stepping about the place and wanting to exercise their patriotism by doing horrible things to people they deem to be of inferior national character.

and create nice warm definitions for other people's misuse of the English language when defining their 'patriotism'.

No, you appeared to take issue with people using the term "proud" when discussing something for which they are not directly responsible. I stated that you were constricting the use of the word "proud" in a way that did not actually reflect common use of the word by native english speakers. I'm not trying to redefine anything or create nice warm definitions. And I think it's strange that you think that's what I'm attempting to do. Please try again.

[gecko]

Was that your point? It seemed that you took issue with the use of the word "proud." That's what I was contesting, and really only by saying that it is a word with many meanings for different people.

Ok. Read this thread again. You will find plenty of people who attest to their own hand in 'shaping this country' whether it be through charity or following their ideals which happen to match up with that of their country. They don't consider the historical events which they could not take part in, but I don't think they selectively choose which great parts of American to selectively be proud of, even if they choose to discount its failures. You decided to extend the meaning of the word proud to fit what you perceive the perception of patriotism is in your post claiming that I am using 'too literal' a definition of proud.

Actually, no. Instead, it is my opinion that you have no idea what I'm saying and are responding to points I am not making. I have no idea whether we agree or not, since you don't seem to be grasping my meaning.

Ok. Your meaning is what exactly? Something hidden within what you actually said that I am not addressing?

It was not. It would have been nice of you to say so, instead of "splurging you rhetoric about," as you say.

Incidentally, your use of the word splurge in this context is strange. I won't go so far as to say that it's actually wrong... since with some elasticity in definition it could be made to work. But it's unusual to use the word in this way. Are you a native speaker of English?

Yes. Are you trying to make a point here, or is this some poorly disguised and weak attempt to attack my command of the English language?

Please see above.

Here's the problem..read your above post, and you clearly suggested that I loosen my definition of the word proud because according to you, people who use the word proud don't really mean proud, but 'happy about', or 'prefer to others', etc.

Actually no. That's not my point at all and never was. I take it you still didn't read the post I linked you to. I say in that post, explicitly:

I did read your post, what makes you think that your admission that patriotism can be twisted means that you can recognize when it is being twisted? When you engage in improper use of language, misunderstandings occur. The more important the concept that is being communicated, the graver the potential consequences. Hence my point that it is important to clarify details regarding patriotism and misuse of words relating to it.

No, you appeared to take issue with people using the term "proud" when discussing something for which they are not directly responsible. I stated that you were constricting the use of the word "proud" in a way that did not actually reflect common use of the word by native english speakers. I'm not trying to redefine anything or create nice warm definitions. And I think it's strange that you think that's what I'm attempting to do. Please try again.

Actually, I would wager that the word 'proud' is most often used to describe a child's success, a loved one's success, and one's own success. So you say that 'proud' when used within the context of patriotism has some special definition? Funny, never saw any note about that...anywhere. So try explaining again how you are not creating a definition out of thin air to compensate for people's use of 'proud' with regards to patriotism; given your hostility towards me I can near guarantee that you never challenged their ideas or their delivery of those ideas.

[Lucid]

Ok. Read this thread again. You will find plenty of people who attest to their own hand in 'shaping this country' whether it be through charity or following their ideals which happen to match up with that of their country. They don't consider the historical events which they could not take part in, but I don't think they selectively choose which great parts of American to selectively be proud of, even if they choose to discount its failures. You decided to extend the meaning of the word proud to fit what you perceive the perception of patriotism is in your post claiming that I am using 'too literal' a definition of proud.


Ok. Your meaning is what exactly? Something hidden within what you actually said that I am not addressing?



Yes. Are you trying to make a point here, or is this some poorly disguised and weak attempt to attack my command of the English language?



Here's the problem..read your above post, and you clearly suggested that I loosen my definition of the word proud because according to you, people who use the word proud don't really mean proud, but 'happy about', or 'prefer to others', etc.



I did read your post, what makes you think that your admission that patriotism can be twisted means that you can recognize when it is being twisted? When you engage in improper use of language, misunderstandings occur. The more important the concept that is being communicated, the graver the potential consequences. Hence my point that it is important to clarify details regarding patriotism and misuse of words relating to it.



Actually, I would wager that the word 'proud' is most often used to describe a child's success, a loved one's success, and one's own success. So you say that 'proud' when used within the context of patriotism has some special definition? Funny, never saw any note about that...anywhere. So try explaining again how you are not creating a definition out of thin air to compensate for people's use of 'proud' with regards to patriotism; given your hostility towards me I can near guarantee that you never challenged their ideas or their delivery of those ideas.

I have no idea why you think I'm being hostile to you.
It seems like you're just picking nits here and getting offended when I challenge your issue with people using the word proud. I'm certainly not trying to say that all people use the word to mean the things listed above, only that some do and so calling all people who use the word in a more flexible manner out for it seemed silly to me.

You appear to be stating that words have different meanings for different people and, simultaneously, that they do not and the word "proud" can have only one meaning for all people.

I had no idea that one's ability to discern when patriotism became dangerous was at issue. You accused me of seeing only the good in patriotism, I countered with proof that such was not the case, and now you accuse me of not knowing when patriotism is dangerous. What's next, you'll tell me I don't know why people feel patriotic and that's why I'm wrong about everything? I don't know the etymology of the word and that's why I'm wrong about everything? I don't know how to cook duck so that's why I'm wrong? Well, if that's what makes you happy, then knock yourself out.

Really, there's no need to get butthurt that I think your nitpicking about the definition of proud is too rigid in this context. There's no need for all this accusation and pomposity. You appear to have taken my comments extremely personally.

I'm just some person on the internet who disagrees with something you said. You shouldn't let that ruin your day. Or your argument. :thumbsup:

EDIT:
No, I was actually asking sincerely if you were a native speaker of English. We have many people on the forum who are not and I thought that one possible explanation for your perspective might be that English was not your first language.

[gecko]

I have no idea why you think I'm being hostile to you.
It seems like you're just picking nits here and getting offended when I challenge your issue with people using the word proud. I'm certainly not trying to say that all people use the word to mean the things listed above, only that some do and so calling all people who use the word in a more flexible manner out for it seemed silly to me.

Asking someone to explain in depth a perspective that is very ambiguous by nature is picking nits?

You appear to be stating that words have different meanings for different people and, simultaneously, that they do not and the word "proud" can have only one meaning for all people.

You are generalizing. Further explanations beyond my previous posts is pointless.

I had no idea that one's ability to discern when patriotism became dangerous was at issue. You accused me of seeing only the good in patriotism, I countered with proof that such was not the case, and now you accuse me of not knowing when patriotism is dangerous.

Taking my posts out of context as well as twisting my points. I stated that you are suggesting that we twist the definition of 'proud' in a beneficial way to accommodate a person's ambiguous use of it when speaking about patriotism. This does not mean you only see the good in patriotism, only that you suggest that we only see the good in others' unclear expressions of their 'patriotism'. You suggest that because of your previous post about a nazi-like evolution of patriotism, that you are justified to interpret one's definition of proud in a beneficial way.

What's next, you'll tell me I don't know why people feel patriotic and that's why I'm wrong about everything? I don't know the etymology of the word and that's why I'm wrong about everything? I don't know how to cook duck so that's why I'm wrong? Well, if that's what makes you happy, then knock yourself out.

I never made any sweeping generalizations, that's you responding to my posts. I tried to use examples in order to show you my perspective, but you are either too stubborn or (willingly) dense to see that.

Really, there's no need to get butthurt that I think your nitpicking about the definition of proud is too rigid in this context. There's no need for all this accusation and pomposity. You appear to have taken my comments extremely personally.

Butthurt? really? Personally? really? Defending myself against veiled criticism of my character introduced by you is being overly sensitive? Ok then. You will just deny previous implications, and further blow smoke so you don't have to actually read or interpret or think about any of my points. As far as you know, I am just jiggling my scrotum for kicks here - and nothing will change your mind.

I'm just some person on the internet who disagrees with something you said. You shouldn't let that ruin your day. Or your argument. :thumbsup:

Thanks, I will be sure to not let my day be ruined again...

EDIT:
No, I was actually asking sincerely if you were a native speaker of English. We have many people on the forum who are not and I thought that one possible explanation for your perspective might be that English was not your first language.

Because of my poor use of splurge? I will explain that expression(in context) to you: "splurging rhetoric" = to toss rhetoric about in a sloppy manner in order to facilitate one's own argument by clever slander of opponent and forgo any meeting of mind, presumably for selfish reasons such as being in a bad mood.

I spontaneously wrote that because of the visual image of 'splurging' on a tv as in throwing away money irresponsibly(to indulge oneself) = 'tossing rhetoric sloppily(to indulge oneself)'.

I wrote this post solely to defend my credibility - according to you, I am a nitpicking, silly, pompous, accusatory, overly sensitive poster whose quality of life depends on a forum, who has no real argument nor ability to comprehend your posts.

[Imperial]

I don't think patriotism is in itself bad or anything. I think blind patriotism is. Or in other words,

" I will die for my country, but I will not lie for her."

[Lucid]

I wrote this post solely to defend my credibility - according to you, I am a nitpicking, silly, pompous, accusatory, overly sensitive poster whose quality of life depends on a forum, who has no real argument nor ability to comprehend your posts.

No, I think you just got upset for some reason. It's ok, dude. Settle down.

[Dodeca]

No, I think you just got upset for some reason. It's ok, dude. Settle down.

This statement seems a little bit patronizing to me.

Anyway I am proud of my country's accomplishments and disappointed at her failing's. My ideal America is not your ideal America.

I want every county to get along united as one but then the term country becomes ambiguous and all thats left is humanity. But again, my ideal humanity is not your ideal humanity.

Each human being has to themselves what they chose to pride and what they chose to scorn.