the census

[reb]

some of you will, no doubt, froth at the mouth, since you believe government has all rights, and individuals have none. there is a complete mental lapse regarding the Constitution in the u.s.s. of a. i don't know jerry day, or who he is, but he makes me laugh just thinking about your reaction:

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[Synamon]

He's the one frothing.

It's 10 questions.

Here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) they are. Hover your mouse over the number for the question for an explanation of why each question is asked.

[Warrior]

I've never heard of him either, but I like his attitude.

[TheLastMohican]

*shrug*

It's much ado about nothing. I understand why some people might object to questions about their race, perhaps insisting that the government is only fueling discrimination by making such distinctions. But as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter. There's no hiding the fact that I'm white (by my appearance) and of Scandinavian origin (by my name).

[Aronnax]

I feel kinda bad for him, he must live in a terrifying world if he's afraid of what the government learns from census information. I wonder if he has a clue how much personal information Google has collected about him?

[Krazy P]

The census is essentially a political effort.

Other organizations and businesses who live off the information it provides work hard to expand and deepen the data base. So, there is a commercial application, but the major issues are political (which is ultimately all about money as well. Money and votes).

[reb]

Krazy, they have convinced me. i'm just going to answer the questions. i need marketing...i really do. i want to cooperate with the government. there are no Constitutional issues involved.

[Night Runner]

some of you will, no doubt, froth at the mouth, since you believe government has all rights, and individuals have none.
I do not know a single person, on this forum or in real life, who believes that. Care to clarify?
I feel kinda bad for him, he must live in a terrifying world if he's afraid of what the government learns from census information. I wonder if he has a clue how much personal information Google has collected about him?
Same here. I feel almost as bad for the 624,907 people who have watched the video...

[acyckowski]

I've never heard of him either, but I like his attitude.

I agree, I like his attitude, but the authority is found within Article I, Section 2.

The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct.

"They" being Congress. As long as Congress has authorized it in law, it's Constitutionally valid. Executive orders and the like would be unauthorized, per se, except where the law is written to give the Executive Branch latitude.

If all this guy has is a Constitutional argument, he's out flapping. Maybe there's a legal challenge out there, but his argument is garbage.

Oh, and for the record, calling out a $10 per hour census taker on constitutional issues isn't exactly an intellectual tour de force.

[NYK]

can he not just avoid the census? Don't say it's wrong to do so cuzz if fear is a driving force to be unknown... and it's a valid and possibly healthy fear... then i'd ditch it. it's my right as an amarican citizen and apparently as an illegal immegrant to avoid such matters of notification.

[reb]

enumeration:

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this goes beyond enumeration. my income is none of their business; they already have that, anyway. why do i want to put my data in their insecure databases again?

[Synchronicity]

The census would make a lot more sense if it were anonymous. The point is to collect statistical information, of which names serve no purpose. The only reason you'd need them is to make sure each person is surveyed once and only once, and should not be connected to the actual information each person provides.

[Warrior]

I agree, I like his attitude, but the authority is found within Article I, Section 2.



"They" being Congress. As long as Congress has authorized it in law, it's Constitutionally valid. Executive orders and the like would be unauthorized, per se, except where the law is written to give the Executive Branch latitude.

If all this guy has is a Constitutional argument, he's out flapping. Maybe there's a legal challenge out there, but his argument is garbage.

Oh, and for the record, calling out a $10 per hour census taker on constitutional issues isn't exactly an intellectual tour de force.

I'm not debating the constitutionality of taking the census. In fact, I don't have too much trouble with most of the questions on the form. The governemnt wants a count, fine, it has the constitutional authority to take a count. All but a couple questions are public information anyway. They actually don't need to send the form to me at all.

However, when the census guy shows up at my door wanting to know things like how many bedrooms my house has, whether my basement is finished, how many pets I have, what kind of vehicles I drive, and so on, I don't think there is any reason to provide that information.

[kepstein8888]

All but a couple questions are public information anyway. They actually don't need to send the form to me at all.

Sounds like government to me...kind of like sending you a "stimulus" check instead of taxing you less in the first place.

They can waterboard me all they want, but they'll never know my favorite color.

[LaoTzu]

I don't see much wrong with it... except...


Why do they ask 'is person 1 Latino'.... and then in the next question they ask 'What is person 1's race' ?? I would say no to the former, and sketch in 'Latino' in the next.... just for kicks...

[Lucid]

I don't see much wrong with it... except...


Why do they ask 'is person 1 Latino'.... and then in the next question they ask 'What is person 1's race' ?? I would say no to the former, and sketch in 'Latino' in the next.... just for kicks...

I don't know why this is, but Latinos are considered racially white. So on government forms it's
"Ethnicity:
Of Latino or Hispanic Descent
Not Of Latino or Hispanic Descent"

Then
"Race:
White
African American or Black
Native American/Alaskan Native
Asian"

etc.

[ya lyublyu tebya]

....uh. I really don't care what the government knows about me...? I'm not doing anything wrong. *shrug*

[Syntax]

Holy shit. Okay, I'm a mathematician. I value statistics and mathematics as necessary tools to make informed decisions. So I'm going to spoiler my reaction to this video, as it may contain laguage that is inappropriate for...anyone.


The U.S. census doesn't give a FLYING FUCK about you as an INDIVIDUAL. That's the job of the IRS. This MASS-SCALE information is necessary and if you feel it's an invasion of "privacy" then I'd like to cut off your superfluous fucking head and shit down your throat for being such a less-than-worthless piece of shit. I hope you die in a fire. I hope your kids get AIDS. You're a paranoid dementia-ridden old man and the census bureau refused to answer your dumb-fuck questions because you're about one step above your average conspiracy theorist. Your average census taker is a fucking moron, and any videos of them will most likely reflect that. But in all likelihood, said videos will reflect the fact that THEY DON'T CARE. They have a job to do and if you're not willing to give the government information that they've chosen to collect for YOUR BENEFIT then there are plenty of houses that will. But the government is recording GPS data?! Oh, NO! It's almost as if technology has changed the process by which we receive data. DAMN THESE NEW-FANGLED COMPUTER THINGIES! Just die already.

[freeeekyyy]

some of you will, no doubt, froth at the mouth, since you believe government has all rights, and individuals have none. there is a complete mental lapse regarding the Constitution in the u.s.s. of a. i don't know jerry day, or who he is, but he makes me laugh just thinking about your reaction:

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It certainly is bothersome that the census gathers any information besides who you are and where you live. But this is nothing new. The 10th amendement is definitely the most hated and ignored by most politicians and government lovers.

[acyckowski]

However, when the census guy shows up at my door wanting to know things like how many bedrooms my house has, whether my basement is finished, how many pets I have, what kind of vehicles I drive, and so on, I don't think there is any reason to provide that information.

To your point, and with a nod to Reb, I sympathize with the point of view. Don't misunderstand me; I have no intention of answering those questions, either, if asked. All I'm saying is the guy in the video is a wrong-headed whack-job if he thinks he has a legitimate Constitutional beef with the Census on the grounds that they ask what he thinks are silly questions. Without having seen the census form, I'm still fairly certain that there's a Privacy Act disclaimer on it, that ought to indicate that the disclosure of information is voluntary.

[Pachystima]

Without having seen the census form, I'm still fairly certain that there's a Privacy Act disclaimer on it, that ought to indicate that the disclosure of information is voluntary.

I just finished filling out the form. There is a statement that all information is given voluntarily. No questions about bedrooms, income or anything of that nature.

It takes about five minutes to fill out the questionnaire; another five to read. It seems to me that there is a lot of flailing and wailing about nothing. I guess the bitching helps keep people out of bars and away from unsavory companions.

[Warrior]

I just finished filling out the form. There is a statement that all information is given voluntarily. No questions about bedrooms, income or anything of that nature.

It takes about five minutes to fill out the questionnaire; another five to read. It seems to me that there is a lot of flailing and wailing about nothing. I guess the bitching helps keep people out of bars and away from unsavory companions.

The more detailed questions are not on the form. A census worker comes to your house and asks those questions.

[LaoTzu]

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Ok... so there are apparently two versions of the census; and it's the 'long form' that the guy is upset about.... It asks for detail on income and how much you pay in bills and the like... They send out something to the tune of 250k to 3M of these.


If you cannot refuse to do the long-form (which is more of a survey than an actual census) then you have a point that it is unconstitutional.

But I have no doubt that you can refuse to take part in the 'American Community Survey'... although the wiki states you will get fined...


hmmmm. this doesn't seem very American to me. If I got asked these questions I would refuse to answer. Let them take me to court over it.... might be fun.

[reb]

lol! reading the last several posts, the light is beginning to dawn on some of you.

reasonable people have no problem with 'head count'. i don't. i have a problem with entry on my property at the implication of agency (by god knows who they hired or how they were vetted-been there, folks; same issues as blackwater and other 'contractors'), probing questions by these same 'unknown strangers'and general government arrogance about human rights and incompetence. unless you have worked closely with 'government', you perhaps cannot understand the level of incompetence and apathy they bring to the playground.

the government computer systems with my data are secure. absolutely. *sarcasm alert*

[Hamburglar]

the government computer systems with my data are secure. absolutely. *sarcasm alert*

I'm sure an enterprising hacker could hack your identity by virtue of you participating in these forums. Anonymity as the antithesis of a free society, lol. The only real privacy anyone has, or ever had, is in their mind.

[rufsketch1]

Government A decides public policy and legislation based on lobbying efforts and educated guesses regarding societal norms.

Government B uses publicly available statistical information upon which legislation and public policy may be based on and contrasted against.

Would you prefer A or B?

---------- Post added 03-03-2010 at 01:57 PM ----------

They can waterboard me all they want, but they'll never know my favorite color.

They will indeed know it. And you can bet your ass they'll use it against you.

---------- Post added 03-03-2010 at 02:04 PM ----------


It seems to me that there is a lot of flailing and wailing about nothing.

Yeah, some people* tend to do that about ridiculously trivial things. I'm not sure why. You could try to remind them of the dehumanizing plight felt in third world countries to put their worries in perspective, but they'll just go on a proud rant about how free market economics will fix those countries right up (in 50 or 60 years).

libertarians

[acyckowski]

lol! reading the last several posts, the light is beginning to dawn on some of you.

reasonable people have no problem with 'head count'. i don't. i have a problem with entry on my property at the implication of agency (by god knows who they hired or how they were vetted-been there, folks; same issues as blackwater and other 'contractors'), probing questions by these same 'unknown strangers'and general government arrogance about human rights and incompetence. unless you have worked closely with 'government', you perhaps cannot understand the level of incompetence and apathy they bring to the playground.

the government computer systems with my data are secure. absolutely. *sarcasm alert*

I suspect that a fine could be appealed on Constitutional grounds. The fourth and fifth amendments seem to apply. Beyond the Constitutionally authorized questions (how many people live here?), the government has no right to investigate further without a warrant (4th amendment) and I am not obligated to volunteer information (5th amendment.)

That's the theory. Of course, according to theory, the 10th amendment prohibits the federal government from exercising any powers not specifically granted to it...say, for instance, the mandatory enrollment of all working citizens in a federal pension plan. So, the realpolitik of the situation is that the Constitution has been ignored for a hundred years and Uncle Sam can do whatever the hell he wants to, so I'll probably be fined if I answer the doorbell and subsequently refuse to tell the census flunky how many bathrooms I have.

[Mader]

The census is used to distribute government money and services.

It is also used to create voting districts.

This makes it very powerful.

Maybe we should all be hispanic with 6 children so we get more government services?!?!?!?

[Aardvark]

I live in Australia and our national statistical agency has quite a different relationship with the government than a lot of other countries.

Basically, not even the Prime Minister of Australia can get access to any type of information that will identify an individual or organisation. Everything is massively confidential. The only 'data' that the Aust Bureau of Stats will release is usually from health surveys and things, and they are non-identifying unit records for health case studies etc.

There have been some instances in other countries where, in the interest of "national security" intelligence agencies have obtained information on certain residents or businesses from national statistical agencies - this just stinks of corruption and breach of public trust.

That doesn't happen here. Australia's legislative framework does not allow it. I think that's why we get such a high response rate for census and surveys.

Also, we don't ask questions about race; only country of birth and the ancestry you identify as having (e.g. Tamil, Canadian, whatever). I think in general Australians have a pretty good attitude towards the census.

[AaronSheffield]

I don't have an issue with the Census itself, however, earlier this week I received a letter from the US Census department informing me that they would be sending me a letter.

Talk about needless and wasteful duplication of effort.

[Thrasymachus]

The census was used as a tool to round up the Japanese during World War II.
I will therefore not be participating, and if I get fined the maximum ($100) I will pay it and be on my way.