Rhode Island teachers fired

[Wapiti]

Rhode island teachers fired. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Is this the right move? What are your thoughts on this?

With "only 7 percent of high school kids are proficient in math standards and 52 percent drop out before graduation" something drastic needs done I think.

Where do the parents fit into all of this?

[Nightsun]

By the way, one should inquire if the problem is:
- the school
- the teachers
- the students

And if the problem are the teachers, wich one?

The move by itself seems pretty stupid.

[Wapiti]

By the way, one should inquire if the problem is:
- the school
- the teachers
- the students

And if the problem are the teachers, wich one?

The move by itself seems pretty stupid.
With a 52% dropout rate, I don't think the issue is isolated to one teacher. Furthermore, resolving issues with one or a couple of teachers is difficult with the teachers union.

[themuzicman]

(For any of you who think I'm a die hard republican, this should break you of that notion)

Bush was an idiot for passing "no child left behind." Having the federal government take further control of our educational system was absolutely the wrong thing to do. If this is what parents want from their school system for their kids, then let them have what they asked for.

Firing the teachers is not the answer. However, given the options, I'm sure the school board felt that this was the only answer. I'm pretty sure that the new teachers who come in will have little more success than the ones fired.

(And none of the other options would work, either.)

[plotthickens]

Why does every child have to be educated to a high standard until they're 18, again? Not the norm, historically. If we can track 14 or 16 year olds into regular/college prep can't we also track kids into regular/college prep/trade schools?

[ArtistTyrant]

good point plotthickens, not every person is cut out for college

[Monte314]

This is a wake up call to teachers' unions.

These unions are strident in their opposition to reforms that would address the real problems that public education faces, because some of these (like pay for performance, which seems to work everywhere else in the REAL world) would make their constituents unhappy.

Until the interests of these powerful organizations and their congressional lobbies are made secondary to educating students, things will continue to get worse. Whether this particular action was "right" will be determined by the outcome; but something like this is LONG LONG LONG overdue.

[plotthickens]

good point plotthickens, not every person is cut out for college

Nor high school. However, those folks who are not can (and do) perform quite adequately at a trade of their choice -- and the current attitude towards blue-collar jobs has meant a distinct need for tradesmen and tradeswomen!

[Mogura]

Fire the parents of the students...

[LaoTzu]

I like the idea, but I wouldn't stop with just the teachers. I'd fire the superintendent and upper administration too.

Some of these teachers might get their jobs back.

Part of the stipulation is that not more than 50 percent can get rehired, but all are able to apply.

Those who have displayed proficiency will get their job back. Those who haven't will hit the bricks. Sounds just like the real world doesn't it?

This experiment should be monitored for several years... to see if any real difference comes of it.

[Night Runner]

I could be mistaken about this (and chances are, I am), but wasn't there a provision in the No Child Left Behind act that if a school fails this horribly, its staff is temporarily substituted by more qualified teachers? Kind of like a CPR/reboot for the system.

[hubcap]

You cannot delegate to the public school system the responsibility for educating your children.........unless you are willing to be satisfied with the results.

[Angel1]

Concerning "No Child Left Behind": NCLB was pushed by Bush for one reason and one reason only...to kill the Whole Language method of teaching students how to read. When he was Governor Bush of text, the future president became concerned about Texas children not learning to read at a sufficient level and understanding. He investigated and found out that across the nation a new method of teaching students to read had been introduced. The only problem - the whole language method was a proven complete and total failure. Despite the facts, teachers and teacher unions resisted changing from whole language to methods that had proven successful. Governor Bush decided that the Texas's government had no choice but to force the issue and to drag teachers kicking and screaming away from the Whole Language method. The primary method that he sought to move students to was the Phonics method of teaching students to read.

Personally, I am one of the few lucky elementary students from the 1990s because when Kings Local School District (in Kings Mills (now Mason), Ohio) began pursuing a switch to the Whole Language method they were shot down by the citizens and parents of the school district. Specifically, several upper-middle class new residents raised a lot of trouble for Kings Local School District. The districts hands were forced and they remained with systems that actual worked.


Anyway to stay on topic: good for Rhode Island. The teacher's union refused an alternative option and knew that mass firing was an option. Clearly the union was not looking out for its members best interests. Our schools must raise their standards and a few eggs will have to be cracked to achieve good results.

[Four]

Isn't it absurd that the superintendent takes no responsibility for the hiring of the teachers in the first place? I think she should get fired also.

[Aronnax]

What happened to the K-8 teachers and the parents?

[Four]

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---------- Post added 02-24-2010 at 09:24 PM ----------

By the way, one should inquire if the problem is:
- the school
- the teachers
- the students

And if the problem are the teachers, wich one?

The move by itself seems pretty stupid.

I'd be checking the water supply, espestes in the buildings, possible radiation levels from local factories also.

[JustMel]

The problem is not just the teachers. It's parents who are unavailable at home to help or don't want to help. It's the fact that No Child Left Behind has moved us away from actual learning and teaching to "pass the test so we get more money" so that all the "teaching" is now simply the material they need to know to pass the test. They really don't care that the kids aren't learning anything so long as test scores net them government money the school system needs to survive.

In our state the test scores are so bad that instead of trying to figure out what they can do they LOWERED the grade scale. It used to be;

A 93-100
B 92-84
C 83-75
D 74-70
F 69-0

Not enough kids were passing so they changed it to;

A 90-100
B 80-89
C 70-79
D 65-69
F 64 and below

[ya lyublyu tebya]

If it's that bad, it has to be the curriculum, not the teachers. I've had some really, really horrible teachers who taught jack squat, and my schools didn't do even close to as badly as these.

JustMel, the system they changed to to is what my parents grew up with in New York City. They were horrified when I came home telling them that anything under 93 was a B. I think grading used to be like that in most places.

[JustMel]

Before NCLB our county was 1 in the state. Now they're 245th. Granted we have some of the worst schools in the country but a 244 place drop since NCLB started is insane.

My 18 yr old was a "C" student in public schools. When we removed her and put her in home school where we picked the curriculum she ended up passing the same test that the graduating seniors have to take with scores higher than 77% of those same graduating seniors.

[Shauru]

No child left behind was a miserable idea for various reasons, I got to see it first hand.

I don't like the reason for why these options came about. And it's very questionable that all the teachers were responsible for the failings.

However. I think it's a good thing that drastic action was taken. It's good to see someone in the world has some balls to radically attempt to correct a problem.

[Nightsun]

Concerning "No Child Left Behind": NCLB was pushed by Bush for one reason and one reason only...to kill the Whole Language method of teaching students how to read. When he was Governor Bush of text, the future president became concerned about Texas children not learning to read at a sufficient level and understanding. He investigated and found out that across the nation a new method of teaching students to read had been introduced. The only problem - the whole language method was a proven complete and total failure. Despite the facts, teachers and teacher unions resisted changing from whole language to methods that had proven successful. Governor Bush decided that the Texas's government had no choice but to force the issue and to drag teachers kicking and screaming away from the Whole Language method. The primary method that he sought to move students to was the Phonics method of teaching students to read.

Personally, I am one of the few lucky elementary students from the 1990s because when Kings Local School District (in Kings Mills (now Mason), Ohio) began pursuing a switch to the Whole Language method they were shot down by the citizens and parents of the school district. Specifically, several upper-middle class new residents raised a lot of trouble for Kings Local School District. The districts hands were forced and they remained with systems that actual worked.


Anyway to stay on topic: good for Rhode Island. The teacher's union refused an alternative option and knew that mass firing was an option. Clearly the union was not looking out for its members best interests. Our schools must raise their standards and a few eggs will have to be cracked to achieve good results.


I don't know the specific of "no child left behind" but whole word teaching (If we talk about the same kind of teaching) is better for visual learners while the usual systems are better for auditory learners. I was unable to read until they used that system when I was a young child (yet I went to school that I already know how to read and write by the way). The problem is that each child learn differently and given that auditory are around 2/3 of people obviosly inside school if you can't differentiate is better the old method. For instance whole words work better with autistic because they are visual learners.

.

---------- Post added 02-24-2010 at 09:24 PM ----------



I'd be checking the water supply, espestes in the buildings, possible radiation levels from local factories also.

No but I'll be blaming parents and a "bad" district. In Italy the school is far more uniform than in USA, pubblic schools are usually better than private schools and works pretty well. Badly with years they are decreasing the standard because childrens get more and more numbs with generations and we feel the pressure to normalize our college/university distribution with the one present in USA and EU. Our school system was better before. School MUST be difficult, the world don't need that much professionists.

[hubcap]

Isn't it absurd that the superintendent takes no responsibility for the hiring of the teachers in the first place? I think she should get fired also.

When did you ever see a bureaucrat take responsibility for anything?

[Jason]

It doesn't look like anybody else has mentioned this, so I'll say it. Hispanics constitute nearly half the total population of Central Falls, RI. And of the 800 students enrolled at Central Falls High School, more than 500 of them are Hispanic. Quoting school officials, CNN reports that "most of" the Hispanic students do not speak English as their first language. Now of all the students who are failing all their subjects (i.e., 50% of the student body), how many of that percentage do you think are Hispanic?

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[JustMel]

It doesn't look like anybody else has mentioned this, so I'll say it. Hispanics constitute nearly half the total population of Central Falls, RI. And of the 800 students enrolled at Central Falls High School, more than 500 of them are Hispanic. Quoting school officials, CNN reports that "most of" the Hispanic students do not speak English as their first language. Now of all the students who are failing all their subjects (i.e., 50% of the student body), how many of that percentage do you think are Hispanic?

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Pretty much brings into play immigration policy, doesn't it?

[LordCorbin]

If my local teachers union wasnt so gorram powerful we might be able to do that here as well. This is a whole mess of problems rolled into one. Immigrant students playing catch-up, districts implementing policies that further the amount of money they get from the government rather than policies that are better for students, parents who dont involve themselves or dont place any emphasis on education, teachers that are terrible but keep their jobs because the district is in a love triangle with the union and the politicians.
Maybe this mass firing will be a wake up call that appropriate changes need to be made and soon.

[ArtistTyrant]

It doesn't look like anybody else has mentioned this, so I'll say it. Hispanics constitute nearly half the total population of Central Falls, RI. And of the 800 students enrolled at Central Falls High School, more than 500 of them are Hispanic. Quoting school officials, CNN reports that "most of" the Hispanic students do not speak English as their first language. Now of all the students who are failing all their subjects (i.e., 50% of the student body), how many of that percentage do you think are Hispanic?

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huh, i guess ArtistTyrant the psychic was right :)

How are teachers expected to teach a standardized curriculum to people who have parents who likely weren't born here and may be here illegally? As that says, most of them don't have a decent grasp of the English language.

[Four]

If anything with their restructuring it's absolutely essential to hire bilingual teachers so the language gap doesn't persist. But that still has got to be awkward unless the school books had both languages and made the students do exercises to require reading, learning, growing in both languages. This sounds very time consuming. It would benefit these kids so much to be taught by bilingual teachers with emphasis on growth in English and Spanish.

More firing to do

Fire the English only textbooks

Fire the superintendent if she isn't bilingual

Fire the principal and assistant principal for the same

[JustMel]

How about learning english before we throw out all the text books? How about having classes for those kids that don't speak english where they can--oh I don't know--- learn the primary language of the country they're living in.

If my kids want to learn a foreign language that's fine but I don't want them to have to do so and if they so want to learn a language they should be able to pick which one they want to study.

If we were going somewhere english wasn't the primary language you'd be learning that language so because we're a "melting pot" our kids are supposed to learn the language of every nation that has a large group here in the US? Not.

[Four]

How about learning english before we throw out all the text books? How about having classes for those kids that don't speak english where they can--oh I don't know--- learn the primary language of the country they're living in.

Those kids can't learn English when they only speak Spanish and don't have bilingual teachers to understand and nurture them. How long until Spanish becomes a very crucial part of our society? Not long at all.

But your point is really interesting. So how about there is a program within the school to get Spanish speaking students get up to par in English. With the right structure, the English only speaking kids would benefit to learn Spanish and English. And the Spanish speaking only kids would benefit to learn English and Spanish. Future prospects are good for bilingual speakers. Wasn't there a study that said if one learns a foreign language early on when language is developing that it increases their intelligence? I think it would benefit both the Spanish speaking only students and the English speaking only students to learn both languages and become bilingual.

If my kids want to learn a foreign language that's fine but I don't want them to have to do so and if they so want to learn a language they should be able to pick which one they want to study.

Good point. Start it as an elective then. That way if the elective takes off with the English speaking only students 50 percent of the school can communicate with the other 50 percent without whispers, laughs, language coded gossip. There has to be a lot of that type of thing going on.

I still think to myself why not both? It benefits their future, the communication between the students at the school, increases their intelligence. I see it as a beneficial way of bringing all the students together and not having a language divide. So that the Spanish speaking students who learn English quick enough can tutor those English only speaking students who take the elective for Spanish. The English speaking students can also help tutor the Spanish speaking only students if they excel in their elective Spanish classes. You have me thinking the idea is too radical but I stand behind it as an opportunity to grow and understand another culture and not feel like an alien in a strange world.

If we were going somewhere english wasn't the primary language you'd be learning that language so because we're a "melting pot" our kids are supposed to learn the language of every nation that has a large group here in the US? Not.

I saw it as an opportunity for the community to grow and not have language barriers and for the students to do the same. It has to do more with the location and all the possibilities there are for kids to have more opportunities in the future. It's maximizing the potential of the community. If it's 50/50 as far as language goes, why not find a way to bridge the gap and benefit all? Being bilingual isn't going to hurt anybody especially in a community where half the people speak a different language.

[Nightsun]

It doesn't look like anybody else has mentioned this, so I'll say it. Hispanics constitute nearly half the total population of Central Falls, RI. And of the 800 students enrolled at Central Falls High School, more than 500 of them are Hispanic. Quoting school officials, CNN reports that "most of" the Hispanic students do not speak English as their first language. Now of all the students who are failing all their subjects (i.e., 50% of the student body), how many of that percentage do you think are Hispanic?

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Exactly the point I tryied to made in my first post, but I think it's not "politically right" to say that...

---------- Post added 02-25-2010 at 11:32 PM ----------

Those kids can't learn English when they only speak Spanish and don't have bilingual teachers to understand and nurture them.


I don't agree, here and in many places in Europe our child learn english, you know, in english, having a true english or USA teacher is considered a "plus".


How long until Spanish becomes a very crucial part of our society? Not long at all.


I agree, I think that spanish teached in all USA school will not be a bad idea, really, USA is the only nation where studying a second language is considered optional, and spanish seems an "intelligent" solution. Also learning foreign languages develop the brain.

[JustMel]

Where's the study that shows foreign language increases intelligence? Our schools to have "English as a second language" course for the non-english speaking students with bilingual teachers. All our kids have the to take a foreign language to graduate but most take French or German.

What about communities that have a higher percentage of people that speak yet another language like Chinese or French? Do we make those schools teach those languages and throw out all their text books and have them reprinted in that language and english as well?

No, we need to determine what the "official" language is going to be before it becomes spanglish and teach it and make it a requirement of those attending PUBLIC schools that are supported by the government that those children learn English or their parents learn english before they put their children in the schools that the government is paying for and people who are here illegally are taking advantage of. I don't care who immigrates here or for what reason but I do think it should be done legally.

We have a girl here in the complex who was dating a guy here illegally from Mexico and she had twin girls with him, he got deported and she's complaining that they won't let him come back and she's left to raise the kids on her own. He shouldn't have been here illegally.

Definition of Citizenship: Citizenship is the status given to a legal member of the country. It involves rights, duties and privileges.

United States Citizenship: U.S. citizenship is usually acquired by birth when the child is born in the territory of the United States. This is provided under the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution.

Naturalization: The process by which a citizen of a foreign country becomes a United States citizen. Order the US Citizenship Application Guide for more information.

Eligibility Requirements: All naturalization applicants must demonstrate good moral character. Other naturalization requirements may be modified or waived for certain applicants, such as spouses of U.S. Citizens, or individuals currently serving in the United States military.

Additional Citizenship Requirements Include:

A period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States
The ability to read, write and speak English
Good moral character
Knowledge of the principles of the U.S. Constitution
Favorable disposition towards the United States
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If you have to learn to speak, read and write ENGLISH to pass the naturalization test then you should have to do the same to take advantage of the schools, welfare and other programs paid for by the government and the taxes of those of us that are either citizens by birth or naturalized immigrants. Period.

[kepstein8888]

I can see how they'd rather quit than eat lunch with the students. Kids do really disgusting things at the lunch table.

If it's that bad, it has to be the curriculum, not the teachers. I've had some really, really horrible teachers who taught jack squat, and my schools didn't do even close to as badly as these.

I was thinking something along those lines. Most dysfunctional environments are that way due to poor management and other high-level or systemic causes. Firing the rank and file is just a way for the superintendent and other politicians to find scapegoats and take the heat off themselves, just like in other government and corporate environments.

[Ray9]

This looks to me like a private sector solution to a public sector problem--poor performance. Because these teachers are unionized it is impossible for management to single out and remove poor performers. So management excercised it's only real option which is a mass firing kind of like what Reagan did to the air traffic controllers in 1981. While the teachers were not striking, they were still protected under the umbrella of the union which forbids performance standards. Instead of working with the superintendant they hid behind the union as usual and got a result they did not expect, just like the air traffic controllers. This is a classic example of how public sector unions have ruined excellence and lowered expectations to a point where emergency measures are the only option. Don't blame this on immigrants.

[JustMel]

This looks to me like a private sector solution to a public sector problem--poor performance. Because these teachers are unionized it is impossible for management to single out and remove poor performers. So management excercised it's only real option which is a mass firing kind of like what Reagan did to the air traffic controllers in 1981. While the teachers were not striking, they were still protected under the umbrella of the union which forbids performance standards. Instead of working with the superintendant they hid behind the union as usual and got a result they did not expect, just like the air traffic controllers. This is a classic example of how public sector unions have ruined excellence and lowered expectations to a point where emergency measures are the only option. Don't blame this on immigrants.

No one, including myself, is blaming it all on immigrants but the lack of English speaking illegals that are taking advantage of the public school system are creating a large problem. The union is also a problem but not the biggest one.

[Four]

Definition of Citizenship: Citizenship is the status given to a legal member of the country. It involves rights, duties and privileges.

United States Citizenship: U.S. citizenship is usually acquired by birth when the child is born in the territory of the United States. This is provided under the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution.

Naturalization: The process by which a citizen of a foreign country becomes a United States citizen. Order the US Citizenship Application Guide for more information.

Eligibility Requirements: All naturalization applicants must demonstrate good moral character. Other naturalization requirements may be modified or waived for certain applicants, such as spouses of U.S. Citizens, or individuals currently serving in the United States military.

Additional Citizenship Requirements Include:
A period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States
The ability to read, write and speak English
Good moral character
Knowledge of the principles of the U.S. Constitution
Favorable disposition towards the United States
Ability to pass the United States Citizenship Test


At what age? How does this apply to children?

[rahdam]

If you insist on teaching them in two languages, you necessarily retard the primary content that you are supposed to teach, because you are not only teaching primary content, you are also teaching accessory language skills. One can only fit so much content into any given block of time. These children will need to attend primary education years after native speakers graduate, or the education they receive will invariably falter.

[Ray9]

I remember when I was in the the third grade--1955--, one day we got a new student in our class. His name was Lazlo Kovacs and I believe he was from Yugoslavia. He was 20 years old. He was placed in the third grade to learn english, not just from the school work but from the kids. He was big like another teacher but he played with us and supervised our games. He spoke no english at all at first and I remember the kids taking him around and telling him the english words for swings and merry-go round and jungle jim. He was with us for six months and he was good natured and fun. I'd totally forgotten about that until now. I don't know what became of him but I know things are much different today. We've lost control of our immigration policies, not that I think that's the reason for the Rhode Island school's failures. I think the uniion is the major problem. Try to fire a single teacher, they're the closest thing in nature to an immovable object. The only way to get rid of them is en masse by policy.

[JustMel]

At what age? How does this apply to children?

The parents have to be "naturalized" first then they can petition for their children to become citizens. At least that's the gist of what I got here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. D&vgnextchannel=51ea3e4d77d73210VgnVCM100000082ca60a RCRD).