Depression and Neurobiological Reductionism

[joes1788]

I have found this idea to be on my mind for the past week or so and have just recently joined the forum so I've decided to gather your thoughts. I have noticed (through observation of friends and acquaintances who have been diagnosed as clinically depressed) that behavior does not always get better with medication, although a clinically depressed person is said to be depressed because of some chemical imbalance. The medication then prescribed is designed to fix this imbalance. If the chemical imbalance was the only thing at fault, then shouldn't the depression go away with medication? I think that perhaps more than just a couple of disorders (but as of now I'm focusing on Depression) can be more accurately described in terms of environment (and also the rational processes a person uses to see their environment) than they can by reducing it to some neurobiological process. Have any of you noticed an emphasis (or perhaps over-emphasis) on diagnosing in terms of neurobiology?

[AliciaS2R]

I have found that medication alone is not as helpful as when it is combined with therapy. Medication can also be very patient specific, what may help one person will make another worse. Many of the medications that are prescribed today are also used as seizure medications. Doctors seem to be more willing to try something different beyond the traditional Prozac or Lithium. It would also depend whether the individual had traditional depression or was bi-polar. To say it is not an exact science would be an understatement.

[apresmoimelle]

I have found that medication alone is not as helpful as when it is combined with therapy...

I agree with AliciaS2R, a lot of people just expect that downing some dosage of pills is enough to make their depression "go away". A lot of people prefer to take a simple solution to a problem rather than combating their issues with therapy and medication. I know some people who absolutely love being labeled as "clinically depressed" and refuse to take medication or have therapy because they are attention seeking whores who are in desperate need for someone to be empathetic to them. These people are not really as depressed as they are just genuinely sad.

[Santana28]

i probably suffered from severe depression when i was younger, possibly bipolar.... whatever the case, i have never been on medication and i feel like i have successfully overcome whatever issues i may have had from it. i had to dig deep and do my own personal therapy and delve into the issues in my life and my core values, and start fresh. once i shed all of the useless skin of the life that i was born into and tormenting me, and focused on building a new and better life for myself - i couldn't be happier. there are times when i get in some sort of "funk" - but digging myself out of it is just a matter of doing what i need to be doing vs. focusing on the bad things in my life.

fyi... my mother has severe depression issues, is certainly bipolar - and anti-depression meds make her absolutely loony. she has more problems stemming from the medication than the depression itself.... but try telling her doctor that...

[athenian200]

I think it's situational, as there are two types of depression... there's emotional depression, caused by stresses and perspectives. This kind needs to be treated psychologically. There's also the kind of depression that doesn't have an external origin, and just manifests as a lack of enthusiasm and inability to enjoy things for no apparent reason. This kind would probably benefit from medication.

I think in many cases, they've forgotten that not all depression is due to simple chemical imbalance. I believe you should try therapy to see if you can find and alleviate the source of your problem, and then try medication if you can't cope with it that way.

[Santana28]

I think it's situational, as there are two types of depression... there's emotional depression, caused by stresses and perspectives. This kind needs to be treated psychologically. There's also the kind of depression that doesn't have an external origin, and just manifests as a lack of enthusiasm and inability to enjoy things for no apparent reason. This kind would probably benefit from medication.

I think in many cases, they've forgotten that not all depression is due to simple chemical imbalance. I believe you should try therapy to see if you can find and alleviate the source of your problem, and then try medication if you can't cope with it that way.

its definitely a combination - i can attest to that. my family has a *very* strong biological history for it, and i've lived my life both in an outside of environmental stressors... i can tell that there is still an aspect of it that is beyond my mental control, but when both are combined it is very difficult if not impossible to judge which factor is the stronger one. of course, i'm not sure how many people survive strong biological depression combined with severe environmental stressors.... i guess thats why we medicate all the kids these days. its a shame.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I have a 'theory' about depression. I think that people who suffer from depression are actually people who can see reality (whether they want to or not). You know, kinda like the group from the Matrix except that group still believed they could do something about their reality, whereas, in real life......................

[Haphazard]

My father was 'depressed.' I guess he was more likely to fly off the handle back then, but now he's on enough medication to kill a horse and mostly what he does all day is lie around on the couch and watch TV.

And that, well, it's depressing. Plain and simple.

[Ace1337]

I have a 'theory' about depression. I think that people who suffer from depression are actually people who can see reality (whether they want to or not). You know, kinda like the group from the Matrix except that group still believed they could do something about their reality, whereas, in real life......................
This is so true, I am depressed and many times I feel like I can see the reality of the world being an ugly place, and sometimes I think other people are blind because they're not as sad as me. The worst thing about depression is that you function normally, do your work, and nobody even notices your depression.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

This is so true, I am depressed and many times I feel like I can see the reality of the world being an ugly place, and sometimes I think other people are blind because they're not as sad as me. The worst thing about depression is that you function normally, do your work, and nobody even notices your depression.
Yes.... and if they do notice, you are bringing them down. This is probably where the saying 'ignorance is bliss' really comes from.

I spent my life seeking the truth. Trying to find answers. It was so important to me to know. But perhaps we are not evolutionarliy equipped to 'know'? Maybe we can't do 'reality' and that's why we have all these fantasy things made up like god and UFO's and such? We're instinctively protecting our ourselves from the inevitable psychological damage of 'knowing reality'.

[AnandaMeansBliss]

according to cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). there is a cognitive component to depression and a behavioral Seligman said depression was a result of "learned helplessness." Seligman suggested that depression was a cognitive problem, not entirely an affect problem. Most likely depression is 1)cognitive (our thoughts influencing our emotions) 2) behavioral (similiar to 1) 3) neurological/biological.physiological 3)environmental (to an extent).

You may want to look into Albert Ellis.

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[vaguely dissatisfied]

according to cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). there is a cognitive component to depression and a behavioral Seligman said depression was a result of "learned helplessness." Seligman suggested that depression was a cognitive problem, not entirely an affect problem. Most likely depression is 1)cognitive (our thoughts influencing our emotions) 2) behavioral (similiar to 1) 3) neurological/biological.physiological 3)environmental (to an extent).

You may want to look into Albert Ellis.

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I've also heard that depression is anger turned inward.

As I look at the sites you put on your post.....I'm noticing that the depressed person's thoughts are continually referred to as irrational. This seems incorrect to me. I agree that these thoughts are self-defeating and lead to unhappiness, but I wonder how they came to the conclusion that they are irrational.

[Santana28]

I've also heard that depression is anger turned inward.

As I look at the sites you put on your post.....I'm noticing that the depressed person's thoughts are continually referred to as irrational. This seems incorrect to me. I agree that these thoughts are self-defeating and lead to unhappiness, but I wonder how they came to the conclusion that they are irrational.

well, they are irrational according to things from the "big picture" perspective - but situationally they can be very rational. the greatest thing that helped me overcome my depression was changing my perspective - that took me 75% of the way there. most people who are depressed are confined in the belief that things are a certain way, or will always be a certain way, or work a certain way. and perhaps in the confines of their life and world those things are true. but from an outsider's perspective they might be very irrational.

at least, from my experience.

[joes1788]

well, they are irrational according to things from the "big picture" perspective - but situationally they can be very rational. the greatest thing that helped me overcome my depression was changing my perspective - that took me 75% of the way there. most people who are depressed are confined in the belief that things are a certain way, or will always be a certain way, or work a certain way. and perhaps in the confines of their life and world those things are true. but from an outsider's perspective they might be very irrational.

at least, from my experience.

I like this explanation. Although I am not depressed, I noticed that when I see things in a "big picture", or at least a slightly bigger one, I can really notice which issues are trivial. At that point I feel a little silly for ever having let them bother me, so I just let them go and find myself much more at ease.

[Aoiluna]

I actually feel sometimes like everyone is depressed in some way, its difficult for me to explain. I agree with the bit about seeing reality for what it is.

I think that if I were relying on medication to keep me from being depressed that that itself would make me depressed.

[deepFlow]

I feel like my depression (whether it's clinical or not) involves an inability to summon up the inner fire of hope, and the inability to create a positive and optimistic inner life for myself for any extended length of time.

There's a lot about the external world to be depressed about, for sure. But I feel like I could in large part "roll with it", or "press on in spite of it", if I had more of that inner fire thing.

I already have the "fuck everyone else anyway" part of that equation down pat! :cheesy:

[joes1788]

according to cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). there is a cognitive component to depression and a behavioral Seligman said depression was a result of "learned helplessness." Seligman suggested that depression was a cognitive problem, not entirely an affect problem. Most likely depression is 1)cognitive (our thoughts influencing our emotions) 2) behavioral (similiar to 1) 3) neurological/biological.physiological 3)environmental (to an extent).

You may want to look into Albert Ellis.

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Seligman's experiments were very interesting, although I found it odd that he said depression was a cognitive problem because his experiments seemed to take a behaviorist's approach.

But anyway, thanks for the links on Ellis' REBT.